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USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 01:18 PM
Hi Zags fans! Let me start with an intro here. I am a Gamecocks fan and grad (1997) who has lived in California since 2001. I am very familiar with the west coast and happy to call it home. I have seen more of the Zags than most Gamecock fans. I have admired them for a long time (my brother in law lives in Spokane) and love what Mark Few has done. I've always been a fan of the Zags and feel this is the most complete team you've ever had under Few.

And just an FYI so you know I'm being as objective as I can here - I have the Zags in the championship game of my bracket. If the Zags make the championship game, I win my pool! If the Gamecocks win, I lose. How's that for a bracket?

An overview of South Carolina
Obviously the team had a good season and finished 3rd in the SEC going 12-6 in conference behind Kentucky and Florida. This team is fantastic on defense. They slumped at the end of the season losing 6 of 9. One of our best players, PJ Dozier, was hurt towards the end of the season but continued to play. Younger players were fighting mental fatigue (and some physical) as they grinded their way through the season. Non conference schedule was very good with some solid wins. As the team got ready for the NCAA tournament and had some time off, they started playing like they did at the beginning of the season.

Our team is a beast on defense. We don't pressure and trap like West Virginia. We may occasionally but we are a half court defense that harasses and suffocates you. We were 5th in the nation in TOs forced, 15th in FG percentage, 7th in 3 point FG defense, 31st coring defense, 12th in total steals. We were average in rebound margin (145th), not a great scoring team but balanced using defense to push the offense.

We don't score a lot of points but are decent enough with the inside - outside game to move the ball and score. Obviously, Thornwell is the star but there is a good cast around him.

NCAA Tournament
Everything has changed for us on offense. We are averaging 82 points a game in the tournament and our defense is suffocating. I thought the Florida game was the worst defensive game of the tournament. Baylor was the best. I saw some posts on here that say we struggle with rebounding. Stats would say that about us - as they would about our offense. However, we have outrebounded all 4 teams we've played in the tournament. If we are on, I promise you that you will not have faced another defense like ours all year. We are peaking at the right time. We have struggled in the first half and our defense has kept us in games. In the second half, we have stepped up the offense with a balanced attack.

My view on Gonzaga
This will be our toughest game so far this year (only Kentucky can compare). Good balance on offense but the difference this year between this team and Zags teams of the past is defense. For me, best moment of the tournament was the end of the West Virginia game. They kept getting rebounds and the Zags harassed them on defense to the point they couldn't even get a shot off at the end of the game.

However, I've been doing my research. So let me share my take on Gonzaga from our perspective.

Great team of course. However, Zags played 5 power 5 schools. One of those was a blowout of Washington. Average score in those games was 80-70 (76-70 without the Washington blowout). You beat Florida which is comparable to our team. However, you had to come from behind to do it. We've been a great come from behind team.

In the WCC, you played 21 games and won by an average score of 84-59. While I've seen the Zags and know how good they are, games are a lot closer against power 5 schools than against WCC opponents. The conference games even skew your offensive and defensive numbers a little.

With the way we are playing, our defense, creating opportunities and TOs, rebounding, defending the 3 point shot, we definitely have a chance. I don't think you will have played anyone all year that has the defense we do. I don't think you will score 80. And I definitely give us a chance to win this game.

My main concern is stopping your bigs Karnowski and Williams. Our perimeter defense is fantastic but I don't think we have the size or depth to stop you inside. There is no doubt that Gonzaga can win this game. That's why you are favored. However, so was Duke, Baylor, and Florida and we beat them too. Your team has a tendency to give up big leads. I hope we are not in that position. However, I don't see this as being a blowout.

It should be a good game. It's the first Final Four for both of us. And regardless, one of us will play for the championship. I hope that is us but if not my consolation is winning my pool! :cheers:

Zags_Fanatic
03-28-2017, 01:35 PM
Welcome to the board and thanks for the insight. I've been lurking on the other side and have seen a couple of your posts over there. Might want to let them know that if USC has the 2nd best defense there must be a team above them :) Should be a great game, congratulations on your success in the tourney now lock Martin up into a ridiculously long contract ASAP.

Also, if you could send someone with mono or the flu to give Sindarious a big kiss from us that would be greatly appreciated.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 01:47 PM
Welcome to the board and thanks for the insight. I've been lurking on the other side and have seen a couple of your posts over there. Might want to let them know that if USC has the 2nd best defense there must be a team above them :) Should be a great game, congratulations on your success in the tourney now lock Martin up into a ridiculously long contract ASAP.

Also, if you could send someone with mono or the flu to give Sindarious a big kiss from us that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks. Like I said, being on the west coast I've seen the Zags for a while. I'm the guy watching the late games against St Mary's on ESPN2 while the East Coast is asleep! Ha!

We are a great defensive team for sure. However, I would caution you about one thing regarding your defense. Look again at what the Zags did in the WCC vs the power 5 schools. Defensive numbers for the Zags are a bit better because of WCC competition. Just remember that our defensive numbers were put up against competition a bit tougher. You may not be as used to playing a team like us as we are playing a team like yours :D

As for Sindarius, he is a man possessed. Even with the mono or flu he might channel his inner MJ from the NBA Finals!

Alum08
03-28-2017, 01:55 PM
I cannot imagine facing a more stifling defense than West Virginia's in the tournament. If you think that SC will have a better defense than what we faced against WV then I am truly worried. That game was a slugfest. Anything more and we might have to start calling it a different sport altogether.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 02:07 PM
I cannot imagine facing a more stifling defense than West Virginia's in the tournament. If you think that SC will have a better defense than what we faced against WV then I am truly worried. That game was a slugfest. Anything more and we might have to start calling it a different sport altogether.

Our defense is different than WVU. Remember that Coach Martin got his start under Huggins. Huggins was his mentor. So that's where Frank's style comes from. We are not really a pressing or trap team.

If you can, go watch the highlights of our game against Baylor. Our half court defense is suffocating. Like I said, I thought the Florida game was our worst defensive effort of the tournament.

I would say without a doubt our defense is better than West Virginia. We don't trap and press but suffocate you once you cross half court.

Zags_Fanatic
03-28-2017, 02:09 PM
Thanks. Like I said, being on the west coast I've seen the Zags for a while. I'm the guy watching the late games against St Mary's on ESPN2 while the East Coast is asleep! Ha!

We are a great defensive team for sure. However, I would caution you about one thing regarding your defense. Look again at what the Zags did in the WCC vs the power 5 schools. Defensive numbers for the Zags are a bit better because of WCC competition. Just remember that our defensive numbers were put up against competition a bit tougher. You may not be as used to playing a team like us as we are playing a team like yours :D

As for Sindarius, he is a man possessed. Even with the mono or flu he might channel his inner MJ from the NBA Finals!

Can't argue that Florida and Iowa State shot better earlier but we still got the Ws and our defense has improved since then. It's insane that this Gonzaga team had 1 returning starter from last year and at this point everything is really clicking. iOur offense is also better than any team you have seen outside of Kentucky which was marginally better in adjusted offensive efficiency. Going to be a fun battle but in the end I believe or half court defense will be stronger and our offense is significantly better. A lot of stats go out the window at this point in the season, but it seems like your fans are doubling down on conference bias over on your boards and they might be in for a rude awakening on Saturday if our guards limit their turnovers.

Hmm, guess we'll just have to hope the Sindarius misses the team bus or something.

tinfoilzag
03-28-2017, 02:11 PM
Welcome to the forums!


However, I would caution you about one thing regarding your defense. Look again at what the Zags did in the WCC vs the power 5 schools. Defensive numbers for the Zags are a bit better because of WCC competition. Just remember that our defensive numbers were put up against competition a bit tougher.

Kenpom (which has us #1 and USC #2) factors in strength of opponent when producing the defensive ranking.


You may not be as used to playing a team like us as we are playing a team like yours :D

This is the one of the most common comments we here from P5 schools. I would say the most common comments are:

1. They won't be able to deal with our athleticism
2. We will run them off the court/speed them up/wear them out
3. They haven't faced a team like us/they play in a weak conference

While I'm not saying these arguments can't be made, posters on these boards will not give them much credence because after 17 years of playing (and beating) P5 schools in the tourney, it can get tiresome.

Really impressed with South Carolina's work ethic and mental toughness. It's going to be a tough game no matter who wins.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 02:23 PM
Welcome to the forums!



Kenpom (which has us #1 and USC #2) factors in strength of opponent when producing the defensive ranking.



This is the one of the most common comments we here from P5 schools. I would say the most common comments are:

1. They won't be able to deal with our athleticism
2. We will run them off the court/speed them up/wear them out
3. They haven't faced a team like us/they play in a weak conference

While I'm not saying these arguments can't be made, posters on these boards will not give them much credence because after 17 years of playing (and beating) P5 schools in the tourney, it can get tiresome.

Really impressed with South Carolina's work ethic and mental toughness. It's going to be a tough game no matter who wins.

See my original post above. I didn't just make these comments with the superior conference attitude. I actually used game results to support my argument.

I used 7 power 5 game examples this year in which you won all of them. However, the scores were much much closer than what you have in the WCC. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

And I am dead serious when I say that you have not played a defense like ours all season.

Duke plays in arguably the toughest conference in the country. These were Coach K's words after playing us:

“We got worn down. It's the most physical game we've been in all year.”

This isn't an argument against your team, athleticism, talent. The Zags are good. But when a team like Duke says that about us, I can promise you that you haven't played a team like us all year. That doesn't mean we will win. I think it will be a good game. But your results against power 5 teams and our defense objectively point to the conclusion that we definitely have a chance.

My statements aren't about putting the Zags down. It's about what we've done. Even watching our team as an observer and not a fan, I find myself saying "wow" to our intensity on defense. I hope we can continue that and not fall apart defensively when we play you. However, it's been our calling card all year.

Again if you doubt what I'm saying about us (this isn't about putting the Zags down - even Coach K hadn't seen a team like us), go watch the Baylor game.

ZagLawGrad
03-28-2017, 02:28 PM
Welcome aboard, sir. Let me offer some random, unorganized and wandering thoughts.

The true USC is in LA known as the Trojans.

That 195th offensive efficiency ranking against the Zags' #1 defensive efficiency, well, that's probably gonna show in the game at some point. It will cut deep against S. Carolina.

And that S. Carolina offensive efficiency compared to Zags' #5-----that also does not bode well for S. Carolina.

S. Carolina will be tough, and is deserving of respect. It has had a nice run. However, the Zags' basketball talent is too deep and experienced for the 'cocks (what the hell kind of mascot is that?) to have a significant shot at winning on Saturday.

But that's why they play the game. Right? And as you said, a no lose deal for you.

P.S. Hopefully our own Maynard Krebs and Hoopaholic with their more astute basketball acumen will wade in and lay it out for you more concisely why on Monday night the Zags are probably gonna be playing for the national title.

tinfoilzag
03-28-2017, 02:36 PM
I used 7 power 5 game examples this year in which you won all of them. However, the scores were much much closer than what you have in the WCC. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

And I am dead serious when I say that you have not played a defense like ours all season.


And I believe you. The numbers and results back it up. It's just we hear it every game against Pac 12, ACC, Big 10, etc...

It's like being tall. You hear the "how's the weather up there" joke so much you just tune it out. That's the point I was trying to make.

Your team had to beat some really good teams to get to the final four. We would of loved to have another crack at Arizona or to play Kentucky in the regular season but we have to play the teams on the schedule.

I think this game will come down to defending against the dribble drive for GU and defending the post for USC. With USC's conditioning and GU's depth together with all of the TV timeouts, I don't think fatigue will be as much of an issue as fouls will.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 02:39 PM
Welcome aboard, sir. Let me offer some random, unorganized and wandering thoughts.

The true USC is in LA known as the Trojans.

And that offensive efficiency ranking against the Zags' #1 defensive efficiency, well, that's probably gonna show in the game at some point. It will cut deep against S. Carolina.

And that S. Carolina 195th ranked offensive efficiency compared to Zags' #5-----that also does not bode well for S. Carolina.

S. Carolina will be tough, and is deserving of respect. It has had a nice run. However, the Zags' basketball talent is too deep and experienced for the 'cocks (what the hell kind of mascot is that?) to have a significant shot at winning on Saturday.

But that's why they play the game. Right? And as you said, a no lose deal for you.

P.S. Hopefully our own Maynard Krebs and Hoopaholic with their more astute basketball acumen will wade in and lay it out for you more concisely why on Monday night the Zags are probably gonna be playing for the national title.

Thanks for the welcome. And to the Zags Law grad, let me offer my rebuttal.

The REAL USC is in Columbia. We were a university (1801) before California was a state. As a California resident for 16 years, I've educated many here on this fact.

The major flaw in your argument is looking at the season stats compared to what we are doing now in the tournament. We ended the season losing 6 of 9 and our players were mentally and physically tired. We were not a great offense most of the year. However, when we were playing our best towards the beginning of the season, we were a much different team.

In the tournament, we have averaged 82 points a game. Our lowest scoring game was 70 points against Baylor where we just stopped scoring the last two minutes by holding the ball for shot clock violations. If you want to compare what we've done in the regular season and ignore what we've done in the tournament, that is a major flaw on your part.

Also, read the rest of this post. I don't need to repeat it. You scored 61 against West Virginia. We are a better defense and will be the toughest you've played all year. Just watch a few minutes of the Baylor game. Read Coach K's comments.

Heck we could lay an egg, not show up, and play our worst game of the tournament and everything we've done for the last 4 games may not mean anything. But there is a fatal flaw in your logic by comparing our regular season to what we are doing now. I'd refer you to the other thread on the board about Zags and USC head to head. Look at the last 3 games. We are much much closer than you think we are.

krozman
03-28-2017, 02:42 PM
I agree with the OP in the sense that WV was considered more of a press team and SC is better known for their half court defense. in the WV game we beat the press pretty well, but struggled with their halfcourt defense. If SC's halfcourt shows up better than WV's did, we're not scoring 80 points as he said. The only issue I think the OP fails to realize is that our defense will take their best player out of the game more than he realizes, and their offense is just not suited to keep up.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 02:45 PM
And I believe you. The numbers and results back it up. It's just we hear it every game against Pac 12, ACC, Big 10, etc...

It's like being tall. You hear the "how's the weather up there" joke so much you just tune it out. That's the point I was trying to make.

Your team had to beat some really good teams to get to the final four. We would of loved to have another crack at Arizona or to play Kentucky in the regular season but we have to play the teams on the schedule.

I think this game will come down to defending against the dribble drive for GU and defending the post for USC. With USC's conditioning and GU's depth together with all of the TV timeouts, I don't think fatigue will be as much of an issue as fouls will.

I get that. I am sure you are tired of it. But again, I started out this post by saying this is the best team Few has ever had top to bottom. I believe that.

However, it is also true that the Zags play closer games against P5 schools than they do against WCC teams. I think we will fall into that category as well and we definitely have a shot the way we play defense.

I think your assessment of the game is fair. We have to worry about the paint and we have to remain balanced on offense in order to win. We need to penetrate as well as make outside shots to keep your defense honest. We will DEFINITELY not be tired. Holy crap our team is freaking intense. I know the coaches are watching the film. You guys should see some highlights.

I think FTs give us an advantage. Silva and Kotsar shoot better than Karnowski and Williams. Our guards are solid and overall our FT percentage has been better. We got a little tight against Florida at the line but Sindarius came through. This game may indeed come down to clutch shots and FTs.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 02:51 PM
I agree with the OP in the sense that WV was considered more of a press team and SC is better known for their half court defense. in the WV game we beat the press pretty well, but struggled with their halfcourt defense. If SC's halfcourt shows up better than WV's did, we're not scoring 80 points as he said. The only issue I think the OP fails to realize is that our defense will take their best player out of the game more than he realizes, and their offense is just not suited to keep up.

Our defense is really really good. Half court is better than WVU. I'm not saying you can't score 80. It depends on the style and how this game goes. In the second half against Duke, we were scoring like crazy with both teams running up and down. Not typically how we play though.

And no, I don't think you will take our best player out. I know the Zags are good. I realize that. But remember that we've played Kentucky, Duke, Baylor, and Florida and they were all intent on stopping him. If they couldn't stop Thornwell I don't think the Zags will either. I think he is on a mission too.

Don't tell your Zags coaches but Thornwell isn't the only guy on the team that can score. We've had 4 or 5 players in double figures in every game of the tournament. But Ssshhhh!!! That's just between us.

hushpuppy
03-28-2017, 02:57 PM
Hey, USCJeremy -- welcome aboard.

I’m not saying your point about the Gonzaga defense against Power 5 teams is totally off-base (we frequently wish for more, and more-late-season, non-conference tussles against top teams), but a few other views to consider:

1. Mark Few is a finalist for coach of the year not just because the team is winning, but because of all of the pieces he meshed together that had never (or barely) played together before. Our two returning starters (Josh and Shem) each had an early-season injury in one of the last two years, so they had only played a handful of games together over their time together. Those P5 games you’re citing were from the first weeks of the season when the players and coaches were all still just putting the pieces together. As has been mentioned, we’re better than we were then.

2. Our whole conference isn’t Pepperdine and San Diego. St. Mary’s was nationally ranked the entire season and won a game in the tourney. To dismiss them and only measure us against P5 teams is kind of silly. To even consider Washington -- who as you note was terrible -- while leaving out the Gaels? Hmm. It just shows that P5 isn’t a tremendously useful category. There’s a world of difference between Oregon and Oregon State.

Welcome to the conversation.

ZagLawGrad
03-28-2017, 02:57 PM
Jeremy, I don't see much of a rebuttal there. Too much hope placed on S.Carolina's defense when the Zags are ranked a better defense, and are top 10 in offense.

And that 195th ranking in offensive efficiency is smelly bad.

That 3 game run was good. But there is good reason Zags are favored to win this one.

hushpuppy
03-28-2017, 03:16 PM
In what metric is South Carolina the 195-rated offense? Kenpom has them at 105, which is behind the other final four teams, but certainly better than 195.

DixieZag
03-28-2017, 03:18 PM
That's what I keep wondering ....

Their defense is rightly vaunted as absolute tops, except for one team.

And yet there's not much discussion regarding how they're going to score against us. We've taken the leading scorer of each team completely out of their game all tournament, but b/c they've beat Baylor, Duke, etc. it means we can't? There's a reason our defense is rated above theirs.

This isn't to the OP b/c it's seen everywhere, from every SC fan I've read from, that it's your defense that is just "something we haven't seen before" and as example, beaten XYZ. Yet ours is rated number one in the country (adjusted for schedule) and still isn't really talked about as a factor and I think that simply has to be another "conference" thing whereby just none of our stats matter.

There isn't a doubt in my mind we'll be held to well below 80. Maybe even 10-14 below 80. I just wonder why SC assumes it's going to score over 60? Because they are going up against another "elite" defense, but this one matches it with a top 20 offense, whereas ....

ZagLawGrad
03-28-2017, 03:21 PM
In what metric is South Carolina the 195-rated offense? Kenpom has them at 105, which is behind the other final four teams, but certainly better than 195.

https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/offensive-efficiency

efficiency

ZagLawGrad
03-28-2017, 03:22 PM
That's what I keep wondering ....

Their defense is rightly vaunted as absolute tops, except for one team.

And yet there's not much discussion regarding how they're going to score against us. We've taken the leading scorer of each team completely out of their game all tournament, but b/c they've beat Baylor, Duke, etc. it means we can't? There's a reason our defense is rated above theirs.

This isn't to the OP b/c it's seen everywhere, from every SC fan I've read from, that it's your defense that is just "something we haven't seen before" and as example, beaten XYZ. Yet ours is rated number one in the country (adjusted for schedule) and still isn't really talked about as a factor and I think that simply has to be another "conference" thing whereby just none of our stats matter.

There isn't a doubt in my mind we'll be held to well below 80. Maybe even 10-14 below 80. I just wonder why SC assumes it's going to score over 60? Because they are going up against another "elite" defense, but this one matches it with a top 20 offense, whereas ....

Much better said than me.

Zag365
03-28-2017, 03:23 PM
Jeremy: You've watched us more that I've watched USC. Based on what I've seen/read over the past couple of days, I think you POV is fair. Zags have to be concerned about dribble drive penetration. If Zag defenders can stay with or in front of Thornwell and Dozier and limit their ability to drive in the paint, the USC offense sputters. Agree? If so, the game might turn on whether the refs let Thornwell and Dozier put their heads down, tuck the ball under an arm, barrel into defenders in the lane, and get foul calls in their favor "because that's the way they play."

Ekrub
03-28-2017, 03:24 PM
Your guys ranking is good and all, but if you throw out some of your stats and leave ours intact- look, our stats are better.

caduceus
03-28-2017, 03:39 PM
I haven't looked at the numbers historically, but my sense is that with top referees assigned to the FF, along with this being late stage tournament, we're likely going to see fewer fouls called than, say, the 50+ we saw earlier. That is, unless things get too chippy. Better game flow definitely makes for better viewing, and probably favors GU, but historically USC averages more fouls per game than we do. Might be a wash.

Martin Centre Mad Man
03-28-2017, 03:48 PM
You can throw out all of the records and all of the stats from the regular season. Both teams made the Final Four. That tells me that both teams are physically and mentally tough and among the best teams in the country at this point in the season.

I expect South Carolina to put up a monster fight. I think we have the better team, but they might be playing better basketball at this point in the season. I think the Zags will win, but I also would have picked our team to beat Duke, Baylor, or Florida - the teams SC beat to get this far. They certainly have the confidence that comes from playing great ball at the right moment in the season. They are certainly capable of beating great teams. We just need to be even better.

Bogozags
03-28-2017, 03:50 PM
I am a South Carolina resident living in Hilton Head and have lived in Charleston, Columbia, Beaufort and Greenwood...this is the most successful Gamecock team ever so congratulations!

This game will be close and hope our Zags score at least one more point at the end of the game...

The line is GU giving 6.5 with the O/U at 138-138.5...we haven't done a great job covering in the tourney BUT we have won each game giving up an average of 59pts while in your victories, you have given 67pts per game. It's to bad we can't play more SEC teams but they are not keen on playing us but we have beaten our fair share...

Oh, legally University of Southern California IS USC...South Carolina lost in court...

Good luck Saturday!

hushpuppy
03-28-2017, 04:25 PM
Thanks, ZLG.

bartruff1
03-28-2017, 04:33 PM
I have always thought Frank Martin was the biggest jerk in college basketball....a vulgar bully....I would never let a son of mine play for him ....

I understand he was suspended at South Carolina for shouting at a player " Answer the F'ing question A hole" ....at a press conference ....

Now when I see him on TV he comes off as a sappy Dr. Phil....what is the deal...is he now the biggest phony in basketball or has he had a transformation ?

Mark Few has always been a class act... a perfect gentleman.... who would never show up a player.... or shout in his face ...or stare him down...or humiliate him in any way ....

john montana
03-28-2017, 04:34 PM
This dude is right. We are doomed.

Goshzagit
03-28-2017, 04:37 PM
The good news about extended, pressure half court defense...it can leave the inside vulnerable to one on one scoring chances IF the guards can get it inside.

Im sorry, but Duke, Baylor, & Florida do not have remotely the same type of offensive skill/scoring in the paint.

We saw that when we played Florida and Scrimmaged Baylor.

They have athletes, strength, & rebounding, but those 3 teams cant touch the one on one post up ability of Karno or Collins...hoping Zach can stay outta foul trouble.

The teams SC have faced rely on put backs, oops, and athletic plays to score within the flow of offense.

Our bigs can score on their own, back to basket, or shooting over guys.

Both are 7' feet plus.

South Carolina is nasty in half court D, but good luck stopping our bigs inside for 40 mins.

Of course if the guards arent overwhelmed.


Zags dont rely solely on dribble penetration, as Baylor, Duke, & Florida clearly do...style adjustment for SC too.

zagsfanforlife
03-28-2017, 05:20 PM
While South Carolina is a good team, plays good defense, the OP acts like they were a top 10 team all year or something... there is a reason they lost as many games as they did.

The teams they have beat in the tournament were all extremely streaky teams having seen Baylor, Duke and Florida all year. Florida was the least streaky out of all, but have offensive deficiencies and no inside presence.

He mentioned we trailed to Florida most of the game? We must have been watching different matchups? I remember us in control most if not all of that game.....

South Carolina is good... the Zags are great. The fans on the SC board I have a feeling could be in for a rude awakening because most of them appear to have never seen a Zags game this season.

Goshzagit
03-28-2017, 05:41 PM
While South Carolina is a good team, plays good defense, the OP acts like they were a top 10 team all year or something... there is a reason they lost as many games as they did.

I will say, Thornwall was suspended for 3 of their losses.

All those were close games, so would have probably been 3 more wins, 3 less losses with him.l, yet you're right, they have shown they can be beat.

RenoZag
03-28-2017, 05:44 PM
I'm on the Zags board. Gave them my overview of our team and the game. Responded to the predictions thread. So far I'm well received but I've still got time to burn some bridges

http://www.cockytalk.com/showpost.php?p=4960689&postcount=19

Would those be troll bridges ?

willandi
03-28-2017, 05:51 PM
We ended the season losing 6 of 9 and our players were mentally and physically tired.


Of course the Zags ended up losing 1 of their last 37 games, so there is a comparison!

MDABE80
03-28-2017, 05:52 PM
Stats won't matter when the ball hits the court. Both teams play very good defense. Out offense has stalled until the first half of the last game. We weren't a jewel in the 2nd half.
We're going to need the offense firing on all cylinders is what I'm thinking. Out bigs should go nuts. Guard plau is our strong suit. As long as Nigel is healthy I do think we'll be fine.
Such desire I what fuels both teams. 6.5 pt favorite doesn't make me feel safe.

Who knows what happens on Saturday. We have the data edge...no doubt but odd things happen once a team gets past the Swt 16.
Defending the 3 line is critical. Rebounding has been spotty for us.
We cure the above and we'll win by 10. If not, the dogfight is on.

zagsfanforlife
03-28-2017, 05:56 PM
Their Cocky board is a joke.

Cant even register for their board with a Zags name. Wanted to give them a rundown of our team, as their opinions are pretty laughable. On second thought let them keep thinking Przem is a big oaf, their defense will suffocate us, NWG is no one to be concerned about, and a 30 pt win is on the horizon. This isnt Duke, This isnt Florida, This isnt Baylor.. this is a 36-1 team #1 in Kenpom.

Instead of even trying to register and post my opinions about even though they dismiss Karno, Williams, Collins and Tillie are "decent" players as well... I will just let Saturday do the talking.

I will say one thing.. I hope some of these posters are coming to the game Saturday. I look forward to seeing their intellectual capacity in person.

TexasZagFan
03-28-2017, 05:56 PM
http://www.cockytalk.com/showpost.php?p=4960689&postcount=19

Would those be troll bridges ?

https://img.memesuper.com/d4624c7bd09286b7222adce0ae8b5960_scared-cat-uh-oh-guys-uh-oh-animal-meme_375-284.jpeg

ETA: will Jeremy be back to burn those bridges? :lmao:

Goshzagit
03-28-2017, 06:11 PM
. As long as Nigel is healthy I do think we'll be .

Did I miss something?

I usually note every tweak, limp, or gimp during games...

Didn't notice anything vs Xavier.

Curious...

Reborn
03-28-2017, 07:55 PM
Good stuff, JeremyinCali. I appreciate your love and zeal for your team. Thanks for coming and sharing it here. You are brave. But oddly enough, Zag fans on this forum are mostly respectful of people like you who come here to warn us. We are warned. Thank you.

I applaud your coach and your team for what they have accomplished. They are in rare company of lower seeds who have made it to the Final Four. It's called getting hot in the tournament and making a deep run. A team like Butler a decade a go. A team like Wichita St a few years back. Your team has certainly ruined many brackets. I did not have the Gamecocks in the Final Four, but I did get the other three right. Yes. Even Oregon without one of their starters. Xavier was a team much like yours. They too had a great run and really upset a few teams as your team did. They too had a star player who played as well as your star did in the tournament, until he met the Zags! And they too have a great coach. Congrats on the Gamecocks ranking #2 in defense. And they ARE that good. But you seem to have no awareness at all of how Good Gonzaga's defense is. We're #1. And have been there for most of the year. And our offense is ranked much higher than yours.

I doubt if Zag Fans need your warning because we are pretty astute at basketball analysis. We've been at this since '99, and this is your first year that I can remember of even making it to the Sweet 16 or Elite 8. I know your bliss because I felt it in '99, and since then we Gonzaga fans have had our hearts broken many times, and finally we made it, and the appreciation that we have is not the same as yours. And the appreciation and we respect that we have for the Zags is different than yours. Our team has proven all year who they are, and believe me the doubters were plenty. Because all year long the Zags have figured out a way to win, I believe that they will find that again vs your team. Of course it will be a tough game, a war, a heavy weight fight. we expect nothing but the very best that the Gamecocks have. We respect you more than you can believe, and we will be ready. I like coach Martin and have always liked his teams because they have all been tough. And I really respect that. Few has coached against him a number of times and I've watched all those games when Martin coached at Kansas St. He's a great coach. As you know Mark Few has always had good luck on his side when the Zags played Kansas St, and the games were heavyweight fights. The same is true about Few vs Hubby. I can see where Hubby has influenced Martin.

I just want to add one thing about Florida and one thing about WV. Florida was without one of their best players and certainly their toughest. You never mentioned that. I am proud of what Florida did without him. Kind of like Oregon, but Florida's dude was tougher than the player that Oregon lost. He's equal to Bell, imo. And, imo you don't give the credit to WV for their defense. If you are better and tougher than them, I will be very surprised. I've never seen that kind of pressure from a team Gonzaga has played, and someone those gallient warriors we call Zags found a way to win. I've watched your team play and agree that they're really good in their half court trapping defense. But Gonzaga has seen much of that over the years, and this year too. that will help us.
It'll be a great game like the one vs WV.

Go Zags!!!

maynard g krebs
03-28-2017, 08:04 PM
P.S. Hopefully our own Maynard Krebs and Hoopaholic with their more astute basketball acumen will wade in and lay it out for you more concisely why on Monday night the Zags are probably gonna be playing for the national title.

LOL. Wrong order on those names. I can give you the fifth grade level analysis if you like; hoop can take care of grad school level.

Here's the fifth grade analysis. Great offense (usually) beats great defense, to quote Dan Dickau. Or to quote Bill Walton (lol, I know) offense wins championships. Defense is a foundation.

I think the Zags can score over 70 and keep USC in the 60's.

One more thing re games v power 5 teams; those scores are somewhat misleading in that in most of those games (exc. Fla) the Zags got out to huge leads and took their foot off the gas, leading to much closer scores.

Zagdawg
03-28-2017, 08:08 PM
Gotta agree that we probably will not score 80 pts either -- but I will take 65-70 while holding the opponent to 55-60.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 08:29 PM
Cockytalk is probably the best board with the most members for Gamecocks sports.

However, you guys really need to pay attention. I beg you - go back and watch that Baylor game. You absolutely have not faced a defense like ours all year. Ask Coach K. He said we are the most physical team they have played all year. I am not saying we will win. But I promise you that you will come back to your board saying we are the best defense you have faced all year.

willandi
03-28-2017, 08:32 PM
Cockytalk is probably the best board with the most members for Gamecocks sports.

However, you guys really need to pay attention. I beg you - go back and watch that Baylor game. You absolutely have not faced a defense like ours all year. Ask Coach K. He said we are the most physical team they have played all year. I am not saying we will win. But I promise you that you will come back to your board saying we are the best defense you have faced all year.

And yet...the Zags defense is rated as better. It seems likely that you will be saying the same thing!

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 08:34 PM
Jeremy: You've watched us more that I've watched USC. Based on what I've seen/read over the past couple of days, I think you POV is fair. Zags have to be concerned about dribble drive penetration. If Zag defenders can stay with or in front of Thornwell and Dozier and limit their ability to drive in the paint, the USC offense sputters. Agree? If so, the game might turn on whether the refs let Thornwell and Dozier put their heads down, tuck the ball under an arm, barrel into defenders in the lane, and get foul calls in their favor "because that's the way they play."

I don't think we are a drive and penetrate team with Dozier and Thornwell like you think. Yes, they do some of that. But we move the ball around, set screens, pass the ball down low. The ball has to work inside and out for us to be effective. Thornwell and Dozier don't just run in the lane looking to draw fouls. That's not their game. They take advantage of screens and openings in the lane but that's different. I think you guys completely misunderstand the offense we run.

I will say it again - in all 4 games we have had 4 or 5 guys score in double digits. We are not a one or two man team. A lot of our offense is created by our defense and turnovers. If you protect the ball, don't turn it over, and play solid half court defense inside and out, you will limit our game and force us to put up shots. Our shot selection for the most part has been good but we have struggled early in games moving the ball and taking good shots.

zagsfanforlife
03-28-2017, 08:37 PM
Cockytalk is probably the best board with the most members for Gamecocks sports.

However, you guys really need to pay attention. I beg you - go back and watch that Baylor game. You absolutely have not faced a defense like ours all year. Ask Coach K. He said we are the most physical team they have played all year. I am not saying we will win. But I promise you that you will come back to your board saying we are the best defense you have faced all year.

Maybe i will be shocked, but i consider myself quite knowledgeable about the game of basketball.. and having seen WVU and SC... i think the pressure WVU puts on a team for 40 min is tougher than SC.

Have you thought about how your bigs are going to deal with Karnowski? or Williams? Or Collins? Or Tillie?

Re: Thornwell, the story was the same about Blueitt--- zags facing hottest guy in the tournament. Didnt Blueitt have like 11 points?

Zagceo
03-28-2017, 08:39 PM
Cockytalk is probably the best board with the most members for Gamecocks sports.

However, you guys really need to pay attention. I beg you - go back and watch that Baylor game. You absolutely have not faced a defense like ours all year. Ask Coach K. He said we are the most physical team they have played all year. I am not saying we will win. But I promise you that you will come back to your board saying we are the best defense you have faced all year.

Xavier scored 20 on us in the second half..........think you can do that to us?

adoptedzag
03-28-2017, 08:39 PM
Cockytalk is probably the best board with the most members for Gamecocks sports.

However, you guys really need to pay attention. I beg you - go back and watch that Baylor game. You absolutely have not faced a defense like ours all year. Ask Coach K. He said we are the most physical team they have played all year. I am not saying we will win. But I promise you that you will come back to your board saying we are the best defense you have faced all year.
No one is denying that you guys will be a tough team, and probably the toughest defense we will face, but it's going to take more than defense to win this game. A one-trick pony won't win.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 08:42 PM
Jeremy, I don't see much of a rebuttal there. Too much hope placed on S.Carolina's defense when the Zags are ranked a better defense, and are top 10 in offense.

And that 195th ranking in offensive efficiency is smelly bad.

That 3 game run was good. But there is good reason Zags are favored to win this one.

I don't think you understand the argument here. I get that not everyone in the WCC is bad. There are a couple of good teams in the conference. I am not dismissing that. However, much of the Zags defensive numbers were put up against some bad teams in the WCC. As I said before, in power 5 games Zags won by an average of less than 10 points a game. Against the WCC, the Zags won by 25 a game and that even includes the good teams you played and a loss.

So your defense is higher ranked because the competition you played in the WCC wasn't as strong. I'm not saying we're better but the level of competition we play in our conferences is different.

And again, you look at the 195th ranking in offense and think that is the same team we are now. We aren't!!! Please pay attention. In the NCAA tournament, we've scored 93 (Marquette), 88 (Duke), 70 (Baylor - and we didn't even shoot the ball in the last 2 minutes of the game), and 77 (Florida - which has a good defense). We put up 65 points in the second half against Duke - the most points they've ever given up in one half in their history. Does that sound like the 195th ranked offensive efficiency team right now? Because you are looking at that and ignoring how we are played now but you are going to be quite shocked when we are a bit better on offense than you think.

And yeah, Zags are favored. Do you know how many times we've heard that in the tournament? Ask Duke, Baylor, and Florida if they were favored. All of them were. Duke was favored by as much as the Zags were. But guess what - we won.

You are severely underestimating us if you think we have a bad offense right now and our defense isn't as good as yours. I know your coaches don't have that opinion. Seriously, if you've got a few minutes just watch some of that Baylor game or our offense against Duke. I promise you that you haven't seen a defense like ours all year.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 08:49 PM
That's what I keep wondering ....

Their defense is rightly vaunted as absolute tops, except for one team.

And yet there's not much discussion regarding how they're going to score against us. We've taken the leading scorer of each team completely out of their game all tournament, but b/c they've beat Baylor, Duke, etc. it means we can't? There's a reason our defense is rated above theirs.

This isn't to the OP b/c it's seen everywhere, from every SC fan I've read from, that it's your defense that is just "something we haven't seen before" and as example, beaten XYZ. Yet ours is rated number one in the country (adjusted for schedule) and still isn't really talked about as a factor and I think that simply has to be another "conference" thing whereby just none of our stats matter.

There isn't a doubt in my mind we'll be held to well below 80. Maybe even 10-14 below 80. I just wonder why SC assumes it's going to score over 60? Because they are going up against another "elite" defense, but this one matches it with a top 20 offense, whereas ....

I've already said that the moment of the tournament for Gonzaga to me was the last offensive possession by West Virginia. They kept getting rebounds but couldn't get off a good shot. With time running down, they couldn't get off a final shot. I thought the Zags played great defense. I think your defense is the reason this team is in the Final 4 and no other Zags team has made it this far.

But guess what? Our defense is the reason we are here too. And our week to week competition is tougher in the SEC than the WCC. I think that is evident by the fact the average score for the Zags was 84-59 in their conference games. And that even includes the good teams in the WCC and your loss.

As for points, I predict the final of this game to be in the low 60s. I think that would be indicative of both teams and a similar game to what you had against West Virginia. It would be our lowest point total of the tournament and would show that the Zags defense is good.

zagsfanforlife
03-28-2017, 08:57 PM
Sounds like we are going to be shocked by a ton of things according to nostradamous (i mean Jeremy).

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 08:57 PM
Oh, legally University of Southern California IS USC...South Carolina lost in court...

Good luck Saturday!

Yeah but remember. They lost in court based on who had the legal right first to the trademark of SC. It's like who claimed the domain first on the internet. Hardly a valid argument for who was the original USC.

Again, we were founded in 1801. California wasn't even a state yet. But congrats to the other USC for winning in court because you got that interlocking SC logo first. That sure showed us!

So please get the argument correct when stating the case. Both schools were using the interlocking SC on merchandise, uniforms, etc. So Cal won that in court. That hardly settles who is the real or first USC.

coolhandzag
03-28-2017, 08:59 PM
See my original post above. I didn't just make these comments with the superior conference attitude. I actually used game results to support my argument.

I used 7 power 5 game examples this year in which you won all of them. However, the scores were much much closer than what you have in the WCC. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

And I am dead serious when I say that you have not played a defense like ours all season.

Duke plays in arguably the toughest conference in the country. These were Coach K's words after playing us:

“We got worn down. It's the most physical game we've been in all year.”

This isn't an argument against your team, athleticism, talent. The Zags are good. But when a team like Duke says that about us, I can promise you that you haven't played a team like us all year. That doesn't mean we will win. I think it will be a good game. But your results against power 5 teams and our defense objectively point to the conclusion that we definitely have a chance.

My statements aren't about putting the Zags down. It's about what we've done. Even watching our team as an observer and not a fan, I find myself saying "wow" to our intensity on defense. I hope we can continue that and not fall apart defensively when we play you. However, it's been our calling card all year.

Again if you doubt what I'm saying about us (this isn't about putting the Zags down - even Coach K hadn't seen a team like us), go watch the Baylor game.

I understand where you are coming from and you presentation has some merit and logic. However, this is the bracket. Logic and merit don't apply sometimes....usually actually. Previous success is not in indicator or future return. I hear that all the time from my financial guys. The bracket is a series of weekend tournaments. What worked in the round of 32 may not, and probably will not apply in the Sweet Sixteen. What the Zags did against Baylor in the preseason matters about as much as SC's league play....not much. The same team that beat Arizona took the floor against the Zags? True. Although it didn't look like it.

SC has passed the eye test the past few weeks that is for certain! As equally certain the Zags have slowly climbed out of their hangover from the BYU game. The Final Four has been achieved and the pressure is off. I predicted that the Zags would be an increasingly difficult out each further round, and it's starting to look like it. Not that is was really hard to predict......

SC is good on the offensive glass.....most successful teams that miss a ton of shots are. If SC extends pressure as far as I think they are the heart of that D is going to have some spaces in it. The double will have to come quick and the re-set will have to beat the ball reversal......for 40 minutes. All while committing to the offensive glass and pressure defense. If SC is allowed to grab, hold, ride and hand check the game will be very close.......if not......

Maybe SC will get the benefit of a couple missed traveling calls or GU gets away with a goal tending call....who can tell.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 09:02 PM
I have always thought Frank Martin was the biggest jerk in college basketball....a vulgar bully....I would never let a son of mine play for him ....

I understand he was suspended at South Carolina for shouting at a player " Answer the F'ing question A hole" ....at a press conference ....

Now when I see him on TV he comes off as a sappy Dr. Phil....what is the deal...is he now the biggest phony in basketball or has he had a transformation ?

Mark Few has always been a class act... a perfect gentleman.... who would never show up a player.... or shout in his face ...or stare him down...or humiliate him in any way ....

I didn't like Martin when he was first hired as our coach. He was a big hothead in my opinion. I think he has matured as coach. He made some mistakes early when he was hired but these kids absolutely love him. He is a very intense guy with high expectations. However, if you go back and read the stories of our team, these kids came here and asked to play for him. He is nowhere near the guy off the court that he is on the court. I believe he has always been that way. Get to know the man and not the guy on TV. It's not just our fans saying this but media all over the country who know Frank Martin. He is a great ambassador for our school - both as a coach and man.

Zagceo
03-28-2017, 09:08 PM
curious how you simulate playing against Przemek in Practice?

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 09:14 PM
I understand where you are coming from and you presentation has some merit and logic. However, this is the bracket. Logic and merit don't apply sometimes....usually actually. Previous success is not in indicator or future return. I hear that all the time from my financial guys. The bracket is a series of weekend tournaments. What worked in the round of 32 may not, and probably will not apply in the Sweet Sixteen. What the Zags did against Baylor in the preseason matters about as much as SC's league play....not much. The same team that beat Arizona took the floor against the Zags? True. Although it didn't look like it.

SC has passed the eye test the past few weeks that is for certain! As equally certain the Zags have slowly climbed out of their hangover from the BYU game. The Final Four has been achieved and the pressure is off. I predicted that the Zags would be an increasingly difficult out each further round, and it's starting to look like it. Not that is was really hard to predict......

SC is good on the offensive glass.....most successful teams that miss a ton of shots are. If SC extends pressure as far as I think they are the heart of that D is going to have some spaces in it. The double will have to come quick and the re-set will have to beat the ball reversal......for 40 minutes. All while committing to the offensive glass and pressure defense. If SC is allowed to grab, hold, ride and hand check the game will be very close.......if not......

Maybe SC will get the benefit of a couple missed traveling calls or GU gets away with a goal tending call....who can tell.

First of all, remember that I had the Zags in the championship game in my bracket before the tournament ever started. I've not underestimated the Zags. My own team has surprised the heck out of me.

However, I have been watching them all year. This defense is intense. I wish you could go back and watch the comments from Kenny, Clark, and Barkley after our games. Our defense is almost always in the right position. They understand spacing. We didn't start playing defense when this tournament started. We dominated teams early in the season on defense like Syracuse and Michigan. Go back and read the game summary of those games.

Again, watch our games. The more you guys talk, the more obvious to me that you are clueless about how we play. We don't grab, hold, hand check, etc. Some of that stuff has been called in this tournament but we've gotten that called a lot for us. That is NOT the way we play defense. We stay in front of you and guard. We don't need to do all of that stuff. Sure, there has been some of that but that's because refs have called some ticky tack stuff in the tournament. Not the way we play.

Seriously, go watch a few minutes of our game against Baylor and tell me if you've seen a defense play like that all year

As for your first point, you note that previous success isn't an indicator of the future. You should try to point that out to some of your other fans on here who continue to bring up our 195th offensive efficiency ranking on the season while completely ignoring that we are one of the highest scoring teams in the tournament. You can throw those stats out the window right now.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 09:25 PM
Good stuff, JeremyinCali. I appreciate your love and zeal for your team. Thanks for coming and sharing it here. You are brave. But oddly enough, Zag fans on this forum are mostly respectful of people like you who come here to warn us. We are warned. Thank you.

I applaud your coach and your team for what they have accomplished. They are in rare company of lower seeds who have made it to the Final Four. It's called getting hot in the tournament and making a deep run. A team like Butler a decade a go. A team like Wichita St a few years back. Your team has certainly ruined many brackets. I did not have the Gamecocks in the Final Four, but I did get the other three right. Yes. Even Oregon without one of their starters. Xavier was a team much like yours. They too had a great run and really upset a few teams as your team did. They too had a star player who played as well as your star did in the tournament, until he met the Zags! And they too have a great coach. Congrats on the Gamecocks ranking #2 in defense. And they ARE that good. But you seem to have no awareness at all of how Good Gonzaga's defense is. We're #1. And have been there for most of the year. And our offense is ranked much higher than yours.

I doubt if Zag Fans need your warning because we are pretty astute at basketball analysis. We've been at this since '99, and this is your first year that I can remember of even making it to the Sweet 16 or Elite 8. I know your bliss because I felt it in '99, and since then we Gonzaga fans have had our hearts broken many times, and finally we made it, and the appreciation that we have is not the same as yours. And the appreciation and we respect that we have for the Zags is different than yours. Our team has proven all year who they are, and believe me the doubters were plenty. Because all year long the Zags have figured out a way to win, I believe that they will find that again vs your team. Of course it will be a tough game, a war, a heavy weight fight. we expect nothing but the very best that the Gamecocks have. We respect you more than you can believe, and we will be ready. I like coach Martin and have always liked his teams because they have all been tough. And I really respect that. Few has coached against him a number of times and I've watched all those games when Martin coached at Kansas St. He's a great coach. As you know Mark Few has always had good luck on his side when the Zags played Kansas St, and the games were heavyweight fights. The same is true about Few vs Hubby. I can see where Hubby has influenced Martin.

I just want to add one thing about Florida and one thing about WV. Florida was without one of their best players and certainly their toughest. You never mentioned that. I am proud of what Florida did without him. Kind of like Oregon, but Florida's dude was tougher than the player that Oregon lost. He's equal to Bell, imo. And, imo you don't give the credit to WV for their defense. If you are better and tougher than them, I will be very surprised. I've never seen that kind of pressure from a team Gonzaga has played, and someone those gallient warriors we call Zags found a way to win. I've watched your team play and agree that they're really good in their half court trapping defense. But Gonzaga has seen much of that over the years, and this year too. that will help us.
It'll be a great game like the one vs WV.

Go Zags!!!

Thanks for your thoughts. And again a few things from me.

Your offense is ranked higher than ours. That is history. You are looking at the regular season. We have scored 82 points in the NCAA tournament - one of the highest PPG of any team.

As for defense, much of that defensive ranking was built against some bad teams in the WCC. Your average score in the WCC was 84-59. Don't you think your defensive stats may have gotten padded a little playing those teams? I just don't think it's fair to say that your defense is clearly the best when you are beating lesser competition by 25 points a game on average. You certainly wouldn't be doing that in the SEC. Yet we were the #2 team in defense while playing in the SEC against tougher overall competition.

And also, one more point of clarity. We do NOT play defense like West Virginia. We are not a full court, press, and trap team. We play a tough half court defense in man to man and zone. Our positioning is fantastic and we are able to force TOs by rotating well, staying in position, and forcing offense into being very uncomfortable setting up their offense and executing. Sure, we may press and trap a little here and there but our defense is not the same as West Virginia. Like any team, we aren't perfect and you will find some spaces to take shot but probably far less than what you are used to doing. But you are correct - Huggins has definitely had an influence on Martin.

And I know Sindarius has been great. But again, in every NCAA tournament game we've played 4 or 5 players have scored in double figures. We aren't just Sindarius. He is the best player and leader but our offense isn't give it to Sindarius and let's see what he can do. The ball rotates around the perimeter, goes inside and out, and our defense will set up some of our offense.

Again, I've given the Zags defense a ton of credit on here. However, many of you seem to underestimate just how good our defense is. That's OK. So did Duke and Baylor (Florida knows) and they are all at home right now. I'm not saying we will win but our defense will hopefully keep us in the game and at least make some believers out of the Zags that yeah, we really are good.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 09:27 PM
http://www.cockytalk.com/showpost.php?p=4960689&postcount=19

Would those be troll bridges ?


https://img.memesuper.com/d4624c7bd09286b7222adce0ae8b5960_scared-cat-uh-oh-guys-uh-oh-animal-meme_375-284.jpeg

ETA: will Jeremy be back to burn those bridges? :lmao:

Oh no. Not busted at all. I can be an ass sometimes. I've been well received on this board better than I am by some on my own board.

That wasn't anything against you guys. I think you really missed the point there because you don't know me or our board. That was more of a joke with my own board as they know how I can be sometimes.

I don't think anything I said there was derogatory or demeaning to you guys or your board at all. It was more of a joke with my own board about how I can be and how I still have some time to be a jerk on here too! :boxing:

ZagLawGrad
03-28-2017, 09:34 PM
Jeremy---no one on this Board doubts that S. Carolina has played well and could potentially pull off a win if they play a great game and the Zags falter.

But you aren't going to convince anyone here that doom is imminent. Gonzaga is for real and we have all heard ad nasuseum the same ol' stories as to why an opponent will pull off a win.

Question for you on a different point---what do S. Carolina fans see as the reason why Thornwell has not been selected for any of the recent All-American teams? (at least I haven't seen him on any). He looks like a fine player.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 09:36 PM
While South Carolina is a good team, plays good defense, the OP acts like they were a top 10 team all year or something... there is a reason they lost as many games as they did.

The teams they have beat in the tournament were all extremely streaky teams having seen Baylor, Duke and Florida all year. Florida was the least streaky out of all, but have offensive deficiencies and no inside presence.

He mentioned we trailed to Florida most of the game? We must have been watching different matchups? I remember us in control most if not all of that game.....

South Carolina is good... the Zags are great. The fans on the SC board I have a feeling could be in for a rude awakening because most of them appear to have never seen a Zags game this season.


I will say, Thornwall was suspended for 3 of their losses.

All those were close games, so would have probably been 3 more wins, 3 less losses with him.l, yet you're right, they have shown they can be beat.

Absolutely not. We are just in as much shock as to what our team is doing as the rest of the country. We didn't expect this. Many of our fans have been pissing and moaning all year about our team. Even during the Marquette and Duke games, guys were just whining and complaining.

I guarantee you there is not one person on our board who thought we were a top 10 team. No one expected this. Not a single person.

And yes, Thornwell was suspended and I don't think we would have lost the games we did if he wasn't out. But our team did struggle down the stretch and it was frustrating. However, we got right as a team again and the rest before the tournament did some good. But no one expected this. But no one doubted our defense either. It was our offense many of us were frustrated with.

And yeah, I am not like most SC fans. I live in California. I see the Zags play. I picked Gonzaga to be in the championship game. But the rude awakening does work both ways. Just because you were ranked the #1 team most of the year doesn't mean you will be the best team when you play us. As much as you think we overestimate our own team, you can be just as guilty of doing the same.

Zagceo
03-28-2017, 09:36 PM
might be part of it
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18272744/suspended-south-carolina-guard-sindarius-thornwell-arrested-marijuana-charge

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 09:43 PM
Jeremy---no one on this Board doubts that S. Carolina has played well and could potentially pull off a win if they play a great game and the Zags falter.

But you aren't going to convince anyone here that doom is imminent. Gonzaga is for real and we have all heard ad nasuseum the same ol' stories as to why an opponent will pull off a win.

Question for you on a different point---what do S. Carolina fans see as the reason why Thornwell has not been selected for any of the recent All-American teams? (at least I haven't seen him on any). He looks like a fine player.

I didn't come on this board to convince you that you will lose. My OP was givinb you a background and overview of our team and our perspective going into this game that maybe many of you weren't aware of. See the predictions thread. I predicted us to lose by 3 while my heart says wins by 3. I also noted in my first post that before the tournament even started that I picked Gonzaga in the championship game.

So while I didn't come here with doom and gloom at all, I think I know more about my team AND your team than your fans do. We may very well lose. We are predicted to lose. So while some of you may think we overestimate our chances, you may be just as guilty of underestimating us.

As for Thornwell, I don't think he should be first team All American. He led our team - 2nd in the SEC in scoring, 6th in rebounding, 2nd in steals, 1st team all SEC defense. He has been a great leader. However, he upped his game in the tournament. And right now, I think he is the leading candidate for MOP. But he wasn't an All American but just a really good player in a good conference. He was also suspended 6 games this season so that may play a factor as well.

GrizZAG
03-28-2017, 09:46 PM
Just looked at the SC schedule for this season. I submit that their schedule has nearly as many "weak" opponent games as we have for WCC opponents. Stats are stats but we know there is always more to the story. The run SC has been on is just amazing no doubt, but they have not played a powerhouse schedule all year long by any stretch. Love to see the blue bloods fall to upstart and MM programs however.

Game ON...Bring it!
Go Zags

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 09:47 PM
might be part of it
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18272744/suspended-south-carolina-guard-sindarius-thornwell-arrested-marijuana-charge

I didn't read every post in our thread about Thornwell being suspended. However, there were really no answers as to why he was suspended. School or AD didn't say anything. And honestly, that article is the first I've seen about that which makes sense why he was suspended.

Again, I didn't ready every post talking about the suspension on our board but I learned something about Thornwell I didn't know.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 09:51 PM
curious how you simulate playing against Przemek in Practice?

Stacking a bunch of polish sausages 7 feet 3 inches high and then feeding them to our walk ons hoping that by eating them, they might get up to 300 pounds?

I don't think you can simulate that. Congrats to him for being the all time winningest player in college basketball history.

I like our defense but if Silva gets in foul trouble, we are going to struggle. We don't have the depth down low to deal with Karnowski and Williams if our guys get in foul trouble. I think you will see some double teams or collapsing in the paint forcing the ball back outside and rotating our guys to put as much pressure as we can on the 3 point shot and hoping you guys miss (our 3 point defense has been really good this season).

As a last resort, we could always resort to hack a Shaq and hope he misses his FTs.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 09:55 PM
Sounds like we are going to be shocked by a ton of things according to nostradamous (i mean Jeremy).

It boils down to this - I think some of you are underestimating us and not giving us the credit we deserve. I haven't done that with your team at all (why else would I pick your team in the championship game if I wasn't giving your team credit?).

And read my posts. I've given the Zags a ton of credit on this board. And to be honest, I've seen more of both of our teams than any of you have since I graduated from South Carolina and live in California. So to be fair, I may have some insight on BOTH of our teams that some of you don't.

coolhandzag
03-28-2017, 09:59 PM
First of all, remember that I had the Zags in the championship game in my bracket before the tournament ever started. I've not underestimated the Zags. My own team has surprised the heck out of me.

However, I have been watching them all year. This defense is intense. I wish you could go back and watch the comments from Kenny, Clark, and Barkley after our games. Our defense is almost always in the right position. They understand spacing. We didn't start playing defense when this tournament started. We dominated teams early in the season on defense like Syracuse and Michigan. Go back and read the game summary of those games.

Again, watch our games. The more you guys talk, the more obvious to me that you are clueless about how we play. We don't grab, hold, hand check, etc. Some of that stuff has been called in this tournament but we've gotten that called a lot for us. That is NOT the way we play defense. We stay in front of you and guard. We don't need to do all of that stuff. Sure, there has been some of that but that's because refs have called some ticky tack stuff in the tournament. Not the way we play.

Seriously, go watch a few minutes of our game against Baylor and tell me if you've seen a defense play like that all year

As for your first point, you note that previous success isn't an indicator of the future. You should try to point that out to some of your other fans on here who continue to bring up our 195th offensive efficiency ranking on the season while completely ignoring that we are one of the highest scoring teams in the tournament. You can throw those stats out the window right now.

Again your logic is sound but not complete. Neither is mine. Corrolating the explosion of a 65 point second half, in a home game, to a 195 +/- OE for future success is not. You really didn't think a Grayson Allen led team was going to make the Elite 8? Maybe you did, but somebody had to beat them.

Florida went what oh-fer 15 from 3? The same team that crushed SC in Gainesville about a month previous.......SC scored in the low 60's?

Defense travels. Yes. SC can lock down. Yes. So can the Zags. Ask Blueitt. You're saying SC league D is statically / aesthetically / functionally superior to the Zags D. Probably. Enough to hold the Zags to 60 or 62? It's going to have to be, because I really don't see that SC throwing up 93/88 again.....or anywhere near. SC barely broke 20 in the first half against Duke.....barely.

Zags could go colder than Florida. SC could get hotter (or colder, first half) then they did against Duke (doubtful......really doubtful). Zags are .750 ATS. Lock down D or not SC is under .500 ATS.

It's my observation that numbers come back just like jumpers abandoned. Not a lot of games end up in the 50's. IMO it's going to take around 67-71 to beat the Zags, minimum........I just don't see SC hanging that up.

A Frank Martin team doesn't push the rulebook on D. It has since K-State. He learned it from H(m)uggins.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 10:00 PM
Maybe i will be shocked, but i consider myself quite knowledgeable about the game of basketball.. and having seen WVU and SC... i think the pressure WVU puts on a team for 40 min is tougher than SC.

Have you thought about how your bigs are going to deal with Karnowski? or Williams? Or Collins? Or Tillie?

Re: Thornwell, the story was the same about Blueitt--- zags facing hottest guy in the tournament. Didnt Blueitt have like 11 points?

I answered the bigs question in my overview thread. So I won't repeat myself again here but did give an honest answer.

The mistake you are making with Thornwell is thinking he is the only reason we are winning. He is playing his butt off right now and leading us for sure. Probably leading candidate for MOP at this point. But it should be pointed out that we've had 4 or 5 players in double figures every game on the tournament. We are not one dimensional and shutting down Thornwell will not shut down our team. It won't help of course but we don't need Thornwell to score every time down the court.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 10:05 PM
SC is good but position for position, is there anyone but Thornwell (maybe) that you would take position by position on SC's side:

Dozier vs NWG
Notice vs Perkins
Thornwell vs Mathews
Kotsar vs JW3
Silva vs Karnowski

Our bench is a significant upgrade over theirs as well.

It's march so anything can happen, but...I like our chances.

I would argue was there anyone that would take any of our players position by position over Duke? We won anyways.

We win as a TEAM not because of one player. Thornwell is the best player and leader but not the only reason we are winning.

I don't think you will see notice on Perkins. I'd like to see him on NWG. Notice is a beast on defense. He is a big guard and his defense is good.

I do worry about our depth especially down low if Silva and Kotsar (which he will) get in foul trouble.

You guys may have an issue with Felder when he runs the point. Fastest guy on our team.

tempe85
03-28-2017, 10:05 PM
Like basically every team we've played in the tourney, the opposing teams fans severely understate the advantage Gonzaga has with their size. Karnowski isn't just college big, by sheer mass Karnowski will be one of the biggest players in the NBA. South Carolina might be one of the least equipped teams we've faced since the first round to deal with Karnowski and Collins. They have two bigs, that's it. They get one of their bigs in foul trouble and they're going to be in very big trouble. Just looking at the games South Carolina lost I notice a pretty unsurprising trend: their bigs got in foul trouble. If we feed the ball to Karnowski and they can't handle him (which I don't think they're going to be able to) then I think Gonzaga wins this game fairly easily.

Also, while I give South Carolina a lot of credit for their 4 game win streak, let's not over look the fact they are literally 7-6 in their last 13 games, with some very poor losess. Only in the tournament would people pretend that 4 wins makes someone a world beater. This is still the team that got bounced by Alabama twice near the end of the season. This is not to say I think they can't beat GU, it's a 1 game elimination tournament after all, but I give them very low odds.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 10:07 PM
No one is denying that you guys will be a tough team, and probably the toughest defense we will face, but it's going to take more than defense to win this game. A one-trick pony won't win.

This is where you guys are so off. Thornwell has gotten attention and rightfully so. But if you think he is the only reason we are winning games, then you are sadly mistaken. We are NOT a one man team!!

We have won as a team. Everyone is contributing. I will say this again for what seems like the hundredth time on here - every tournament game has seen 4 or 5 guys from our team score in double figures. So go ahead and think we are just winning because of Thornwell.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 10:10 PM
And yet...the Zags defense is rated as better. It seems likely that you will be saying the same thing!

Zags played 21 WCC games and won by an average score of 84-59. Don't you think those numbers play a little bit of a factor in your defense being rated higher?.

I'm just going to go out on a limb and say your average score if you played in the SEC wouldn't be 84-59 and your defensive numbers wouldn't be quite as good.

While I have said on this board all along that the Zags defense is good, has made this the best team Few has had, and is the reason why this Zags team made the Final 4 and not the others, just remember that other teams that put up good defensive numbers against better competition in their conferences and might be better than yours.

To be fair, our offense isn't as good but our defense is up there with anyone.

Reborn
03-28-2017, 10:10 PM
Again, I've given the Zags defense a ton of credit on here. However, many of you seem to underestimate just how good our defense is. That's OK. So did Duke and Baylor (Florida knows) and they are all at home right now. I'm not saying we will win but our defense will hopefully keep us in the game and at least make some believers out of the Zags that yeah, we really are good.

Only one team in the NCAA Tournament scored above 59 points on us, and that was Northwestern. Our defense travels well, as you will see.

Go Zags!!!

Zags_Fanatic
03-28-2017, 10:22 PM
Stacking a bunch of polish sausages 7 feet 3 inches high and then feeding them to our walk ons hoping that by eating them, they might get up to 300 pounds?

I don't think you can simulate that. Congrats to him for being the all time winningest player in college basketball history.

I like our defense but if Silva gets in foul trouble, we are going to struggle. We don't have the depth down low to deal with Karnowski and Williams if our guys get in foul trouble. I think you will see some double teams or collapsing in the paint forcing the ball back outside and rotating our guys to put as much pressure as we can on the 3 point shot and hoping you guys miss (our 3 point defense has been really good this season).

As a last resort, we could always resort to hack a Shaq and hope he misses his FTs.

Don't forget Collins :) We must be the only team that brings a 7ft McD's All-American and potential one-and-done lottery pick off the bench. Tillie is no slouch either. If free throws might determine the outcome, Collins will be on the floor in Karnowski's place so don't count on hack a shaq to get an advantage.

One thing that I would like to point out to you, for damn near 2 decades we have been crapped on by fans from P5 schools and coming to this board and playing the "SEC vs. WCC means more than records and statistics card" is always going to ruffle some feathers, even if there is some validity to it. Gonzaga fans in general (myself included) have a bit of an inferiority complex and we are very quick to get defensive.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 10:25 PM
Again your logic is sound but not complete. Neither is mine. Corrolating the explosion of a 65 point second half, in a home game, to a 195 +/- OE for future success is not. You really didn't think a Grayson Allen led team was going to make the Elite 8? Maybe you did, but somebody had to beat them.

Florida went what oh-fer 15 from 3? The same team that crushed SC in Gainesville about a month previous.......SC scored in the low 60's?

Defense travels. Yes. SC can lock down. Yes. So can the Zags. Ask Blueitt. You're saying SC league D is statically / aesthetically / functionally superior to the Zags D. Probably. Enough to hold the Zags to 60 or 62? It's going to have to be, because I really don't see that SC throwing up 93/88 again.....or anywhere near. SC barely broke 20 in the first half against Duke.....barely.

Zags could go colder than Florida. SC could get hotter (or colder, first half) then they did against Duke (doubtful......really doubtful). Zags are .750 ATS. Lock down D or not SC is under .500 ATS.

It's my observation that numbers come back just like jumpers abandoned. Not a lot of games end up in the 50's. IMO it's going to take around 67-71 to beat the Zags, minimum........I just don't see SC hanging that up.

A Frank Martin team doesn't push the rulebook on D. It has since K-State. He learned it from H(m)uggins.

To your last point, I've made plenty of references to the fact that Martin learned defense from Huggins. However, our defense isn't the same as theirs.

As for Florida, you act like that 0 for 15 was some anomaly. Sure, most teams don't go 0 for. Except Florida did the first time they played us where we beat them. It was the first time since 1993 or something that they hadn't had a 3 pointer. Then there's that stat where we are number 7 in 3 pt FG pct (right behind you guys). So holding Florida to an 0 for isn't a shock. We did the same thing to Syracuse and many other teams this year.

The problem you have in comparing to Thornwell to Blueitt is that you think we are just as dependent on Thornwell as they are on Blueitt. Not the case at all. Thornwell has upped his game and he is a big factor and leader. But we have 4 or 5 guys a night scoring double figures for us. We aren't one dimensional.

The reason we scored only 23 against Duke in the first half was due to poor shot choices. Martin said at halftime we have to move the ball inside and get in the paint and take better shots. We did and scored 65 points. We also shot 71%. Is that going to happen again? Probably not but that isn't the point. It's about us having a balanced offense, moving the ball, moving it inside and out, knocking down shots, penetrating the lane when it is there, and taking advantage of our defense to create some offense. This isn't just about Thornwell.

As for the points needed, you may be right. But also remember that the lowest number we've scored so far in the tournament is 70. It isn't out of the question we can score that many. We are hot right now and averaged 82 a game (so it's not really fair to compare what this team is doing now to what it did against Florida a month ago). However, I really think it depends on the style and pace in this game. If it's a slow down, half court game then no I don't think either will score 70. If the game goes up and down the floor and our defense creates some offense, then yeah I think we can score 70. But it all depend on the flow of the game.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 10:32 PM
Don't forget Collins :) We must be the only team that brings a 7ft McD's All-American and potential one-and-done lottery pick off the bench. Tillie is no slouch either. If free throws might determine the outcome, Collins will be on the floor in Karnowski's place so don't count on hack a shaq to get an advantage.

One thing that I would like to point out to you, for damn near 2 decades we have been crapped on by fans from P5 schools and coming to this board and playing the "SEC vs. WCC means more than records and statistics card" is always going to ruffle some feathers, even if there is some validity to it. Gonzaga fans in general (myself included) have a bit of an inferiority complex and we are very quick to get defensive.

I get you being defensive. And again, I'm not trying to make you defensive. However, clear logic alone would dictate Gonzaga isn't winning games 84-59 in the SEC and your defensive numbers wouldn't be as good as a result. So you'll have to pardon me if I get defensive about your defense being better than ours when I realize that your defense wouldn't be quite as highly ranked if you played in the SEC like us. It's not a slight to you at all. It's logic and common sense honestly.

Again, I haven't crapped on Gonzaga at all. I've watched this team on the west coast for a number of years. Seriously, I know enough about your team to be smart enough to pick you to play in the championship game in my bracket when I've never done that before. I know you are good on offense and defense. Just don't expect me to be OK with dismissing our defense and stating yours is clearly better when the competition level isn't the same.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 10:35 PM
Like basically every team we've played in the tourney, the opposing teams fans severely understate the advantage Gonzaga has with their size. Karnowski isn't just college big, by sheer mass Karnowski will be one of the biggest players in the NBA. South Carolina might be one of the least equipped teams we've faced since the first round to deal with Karnowski and Collins. They have two bigs, that's it. They get one of their bigs in foul trouble and they're going to be in very big trouble. Just looking at the games South Carolina lost I notice a pretty unsurprising trend: their bigs got in foul trouble. If we feed the ball to Karnowski and they can't handle him (which I don't think they're going to be able to) then I think Gonzaga wins this game fairly easily.

Also, while I give South Carolina a lot of credit for their 4 game win streak, let's not over look the fact they are literally 7-6 in their last 13 games, with some very poor losess. Only in the tournament would people pretend that 4 wins makes someone a world beater. This is still the team that got bounced by Alabama twice near the end of the season. This is not to say I think they can't beat GU, it's a 1 game elimination tournament after all, but I give them very low odds.

I don't agree with your statement that Gonzaga wins easily but I completely agree with your assessment of your guys down low, our lack of depth, the problems we are going to have if we get in foul trouble, and how tough it is going to be to deal with your bigs. This is why I think we will collapse our defense in the point, force you to go outside, rotate our defense as well as we can, and force you to beat us outside.

ZagaZags
03-28-2017, 10:35 PM
I get you being defensive. And again, I'm not trying to make you defensive. However, clear logic alone would dictate Gonzaga isn't winning games 84-59 in the SEC and your defensive numbers wouldn't be as good as a result. So you'll have to pardon me if I get defensive about your defense being better than ours when I realize that your defense wouldn't be quite as highly ranked if you played in the SEC like us. It's not a slight to you at all. It's logic and common sense honestly.

Again, I haven't crapped on Gonzaga at all. I've watched this team on the west coast for a number of years. Seriously, I know enough about your team to be smart enough to pick you to play in the championship game in my bracket when I've never done that before. I know you are good on offense and defense. Just don't expect me to be OK with dismissing our defense and stating yours is clearly better when the competition level isn't the same.

You should go to Vegas and bet all you can on South Carolina. I hear you get points too.

P.S Tell your coach to avoid a technical foul.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 10:38 PM
Only one team in the NCAA Tournament scored above 59 points on us, and that was Northwestern. Our defense travels well, as you will see.

Go Zags!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong but the one concern I would have with the Zags defense is that they have been prone to letting big leads slip away. Happened against Northwestern as well as some other games you had this year.

So the counter argument I would make to that is that we have been down at halftime in 3 of our 4 games this year and won them all. I believe only 4 other tournament teams have done that. So we can come back as well which means even if we get down, we don't think we are out. It's not because our offense is that good. It's because our defense is.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 10:43 PM
You should go to Vegas and bet all you can on South Carolina. I hear you get points too.

P.S Tell your coach to avoid a technical foul.

I wish I had done that early in the season when we were 100-1 odds to win it all. Even our odds to get to the Final Four weren't good. If only I had bet money on us BEFORE the season started. If I only knew then what I know now.

P.S. Frank Martin hasn't gotten a technical foul the entire tournament. I don't remember the last time he has had one.

caduceus
03-28-2017, 10:45 PM
It's all good. This board would be really boring without fans of other teams (preaching to the choir thing).

If I was an SC fan, I'd be touting the positives of my team as I do the Zags. Humans stick to their tribes in most facets of life.

My quick thoughts:

1) SC caught my attention halfway through the season when their AdjD skyrocketed on Pomeroy, followed by a series of losses. Wasn't aware of Thornwell's suspension, which explains a lot.

2) Looks like Thornwell should have gone to a school in Washington (where recreational pоt is legal -- but you can't say "pоt" on this board, because it shows up as ### unless you say the magic word)!

3) High respect for Martin as a coach. Not a fan of his demeanor, but, like Bob Knight, he's had great success.

4) I suspect overall each team's defenses are going to cancel each other out. Advantage should go to the Zags when it comes to the offensive aspect, but who knows.

5) It's no surprise whatsoever that our margins of win are better with WCC teams than P5 teams. Remove the conference affiliations and just look at Pomeroy or other rankings and the result is simple -- you beat lesser teams by big margins and better teams by less. However, Pomeroy (for example) notably takes into account the season strength of opponents and factors that into its ratings. The Zags have a #1 defensive efficiency rating despite their schedule, rather than because of their schedule. WVU was held to their lowest FG% of the season by the Zags, despite having a top 25 rated offense. St. Mary's offense is #13, and we beat them thrice.

It's going to be a tough, physical game, and I doubt anyone's getting blown out. Good luck moving forward (just not Saturday).

coolhandzag
03-28-2017, 10:46 PM
I get you being defensive. And again, I'm not trying to make you defensive. However, clear logic alone would dictate Gonzaga isn't winning games 84-59 in the SEC and your defensive numbers wouldn't be as good as a result. So you'll have to pardon me if I get defensive about your defense being better than ours when I realize that your defense wouldn't be quite as highly ranked if you played in the SEC like us. It's not a slight to you at all. It's logic and common sense honestly.

Again, I haven't crapped on Gonzaga at all. I've watched this team on the west coast for a number of years. Seriously, I know enough about your team to be smart enough to pick you to play in the championship game in my bracket when I've never done that before. I know you are good on offense and defense. Just don't expect me to be OK with dismissing our defense and stating yours is clearly better when the competition level isn't the same.

I get it. SC is rollin'. I'm not dismissing SC D. I don't dismiss anything during the bracket. Is SC scoring binge reflective of what was put up for the season? No. Will they continue to roll? Maybe. If the numbers come back or Kosar / Silva get into foul trouble they might have to.

ZagaZags
03-28-2017, 10:52 PM
I wish I had done that early in the season when we were 100-1 odds to win it all. Even our odds to get to the Final Four weren't good. If only I had bet money on us BEFORE the season started. If I only knew then what I know now.

P.S. Frank Martin hasn't gotten a technical foul the entire tournament. I don't remember the last time he has had one.

You can still make a bet. I recommend betting large on South Carolina.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 11:01 PM
You can still make a bet. I recommend betting large on South Carolina.

Odds are only 8-1 now. I should have done this earlier in the season.

USCJeremyinCali
03-28-2017, 11:07 PM
It's all good. This board would be really boring without fans of other teams (preaching to the choir thing).

If I was an SC fan, I'd be touting the positives of my team as I do the Zags. Humans stick to their tribes in most facets of life.

My quick thoughts:

1) SC caught my attention halfway through the season when their AdjD skyrocketed on Pomeroy, followed by a series of losses. Wasn't aware of Thornwell's suspension, which explains a lot.

2) Looks like Thornwell should have gone to a school in Washington (where recreational pоt is legal -- but you can't say "pоt" on this board, because it shows up as ### unless you say the magic word)!

3) High respect for Martin as a coach. Not a fan of his demeanor, but, like Bob Knight, he's had great success.

4) I suspect overall each team's defenses are going to cancel each other out. Advantage should go to the Zags when it comes to the offensive aspect, but who knows.

5) It's no surprise whatsoever that our margins of win are better with WCC teams than P5 teams. Remove the conference affiliations and just look at Pomeroy or other rankings and the result is simple -- you beat lesser teams by big margins and better teams by less. However, Pomeroy (for example) notably takes into account the season strength of opponents and factors that into its ratings. The Zags have a #1 defensive efficiency rating despite their schedule, rather than because of their schedule. WVU was held to their lowest FG% of the season by the Zags, despite having a top 25 rated offense. St. Mary's offense is #13, and we beat them thrice.

It's going to be a tough, physical game, and I doubt anyone's getting blown out. Good luck moving forward (just not Saturday).

Fair points although you are off on Martin. He is nowhere near the guy many fans make him out to be. I was just as guilty of this when he was hired as our coach but he has changed some and he is a much different man off the court than he is on. Don't listen or believe what you see on TV. Listen to what others close to him say about the man. That speaks far louder.

As for #5, that is also a fair point. But again Pomeroy's argument is subjective - he rates them better defensively in spite of the schedule. I'm just saying this - if Gonzaga is 1 and South Carolina is 2 then all else being equal in schedules, I think we're just as good and have proven that over the season with a tough schedule.

As for us, we are in the Final Four. You guys have waited 20 years for this. We've waited 44 years for a tournament WIN. And now we have this?! No matter what happens on Saturday, we may be disappointed but there's no way we are going to be upset or unhappy. This is further than any of us ever dreamed.

ZagaZags
03-28-2017, 11:14 PM
Odds are only 8-1 now. I should have done this earlier in the season.

Just bet South Carolina to beat Gonzaga. Put your money where your mouth is. I think it's a safe bet you won't.

Karnowski loves a chicken.

http://prodstatics3cdn1.tastingtable.com/images/articles/2015_04/Web-Article-Chef-Marcus-Samuelsson-Streetbird-Red-Rooster-Harlem-Tips-on-Roasting-Brining-a-Perfect-Chicken-Rotisserie-Recipe1.gif

caduceus
03-28-2017, 11:38 PM
As for #5, that is also a fair point. But again Pomeroy's argument is subjective - he rates them better defensively in spite of the schedule. I'm just saying this - if Gonzaga is 1 and South Carolina is 2 then all else being equal in schedules, I think we're just as good and have proven that over the season with a tough schedule.


No, you clearly don't understand the math. To start, there is a defensive efficiency statistic in games (opponent's points per possession), which is indeed influenced by the strength of the opponent. However, Pomeroy looks at those defensive efficiencies of EVERY game played by the 351 division I teams in the season, and ELIMINATES (factors out) the strength of schedule bias from the defensive efficiency statistic (and other things, like pace of the game). That is why it is called ADJUSTED Defensive Efficiency. By the end of the season you have on the order of 10,000 or so games played in various combinations by all manner of teams. By tournament time, the adjusted efficiencies have significant statistical strength and are considerably predictive.

Pomeroy absolutely, positively does not rate teams subjectively. It is only math and numbers. His ratings are validated by years of past seasons' numbers.

It's important to remember that ratings and probabilities are just that. If there wasn't a random element to the games, then Pomeroy could simply tell us the scores before we play them. All he can tell you is precisely, based on the history of the season, the Zags have the #1 defensive efficiency in the country, and the Gamecocks are close behind at #2.

gonzagafan62
03-29-2017, 01:15 AM
See my original post above. I didn't just make these comments with the superior conference attitude. I actually used game results to support my argument.

I used 7 power 5 game examples this year in which you won all of them. However, the scores were much much closer than what you have in the WCC. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

And I am dead serious when I say that you have not played a defense like ours all season.

Duke plays in arguably the toughest conference in the country. These were Coach K's words after playing us:

“We got worn down. It's the most physical game we've been in all year.”

This isn't an argument against your team, athleticism, talent. The Zags are good. But when a team like Duke says that about us, I can promise you that you haven't played a team like us all year. That doesn't mean we will win. I think it will be a good game. But your results against power 5 teams and our defense objectively point to the conclusion that we definitely have a chance.

My statements aren't about putting the Zags down. It's about what we've done. Even watching our team as an observer and not a fan, I find myself saying "wow" to our intensity on defense. I hope we can continue that and not fall apart defensively when we play you. However, it's been our calling card all year.

Again if you doubt what I'm saying about us (this isn't about putting the Zags down - even Coach K hadn't seen a team like us), go watch the Baylor game.

I welcome you to the board also. Thanks for the insight.

However we have seen #4 and #5 ranked defenses. Our defense is #1 which is tough to get because it's ADJUSTED FOR SOS ....We've beaten the press, and Florida. Between that Florida game and West Virginia our overall defense got tons better.

What you need to realize is that Gonzaga had one returning starter (Josh Perkins), 3 transfers and a guy coming back from back surgery. We had to schedule tough games early without even knowing how we would mesh or knowing how well we would do. Like you said we won all of them, got really lucky at times too. Our defense really start really clicking till January. That's when we knew we had a powerhouse defense. You could see the rotation and help defense start being clearer and the sets were much cleaner.

Weaker competition sure but if you actually watch it you knew.

It was also really evident early too against San Diego State when you saw a lot of fastbreak steals that the kids studied the scouting report. The defense is suffocating.

I know about thornwell. My Kentucky friends have been on him since day one. What I'm interested in is Silvia and Felder. That may be the difference in the game.

Good luck

CanadianZagsFan
03-29-2017, 02:10 AM
Our defense is different than WVU. Remember that Coach Martin got his start under Huggins. Huggins was his mentor. So that's where Frank's style comes from. We are not really a pressing or trap team.

If you can, go watch the highlights of our game against Baylor. Our half court defense is suffocating. Like I said, I thought the Florida game was our worst defensive effort of the tournament.

I would say without a doubt our defense is better than West Virginia. We don't trap and press but suffocate you once you cross half court.

I watched Baylor this year 2-4 times?? Including at West Virginia. Baylor is not well coached, guys go "rogue" on offense, they hurry a lot of their looks, not as good shooting team as the Zags , and while Baylor might be more athletic or long as Gonzaga at some spots... Not overly smart basketball club. Baylor : slightly better IQ basketball than Florida St who had flaws in their game too which they were majorly exposed in the tournament by a team Gonzaga just manhandled.

Baylor peaked early in the season then started gradually decline by Feb to early March. Baylor and Florida St have holes. Gonzaga has little to none, proved it all year whether power conferences still choose to see it or not.

Thank you for at least watching Gonzaga and hitting on half to three quarters of valid points.

zagdontzig
03-29-2017, 03:08 AM
Zags played 21 WCC games and won by an average score of 84-59. Don't you think those numbers play a little bit of a factor in your defense being rated higher?.

I'm just going to go out on a limb and say your average score if you played in the SEC wouldn't be 84-59 and your defensive numbers wouldn't be quite as good.

While I have said on this board all along that the Zags defense is good, has made this the best team Few has had, and is the reason why this Zags team made the Final 4 and not the others, just remember that other teams that put up good defensive numbers against better competition in their conferences and might be better than yours.

To be fair, our offense isn't as good but our defense is up there with anyone.

Every team's board we played made precisely this argument, but failed to remember the nuance that the defensive ratings are adjusted for the opponents' offensive efficiency.

TexasZag
03-29-2017, 05:24 AM
I think all of this yacking about, "we're great because we are a P5 school and you're not because you aren't" is just comical. First, the SEC is at the BOTTOM of the P5 rankings and save Kentucky and Florida, hasn't really been considered a very good basketball conference; although, this year they had a better run than in most years. With that said, the SEC is still a middle-of-the-road conference that doesn't rate (ranked 5th in RPI) significantly higher than the lowly WCC (ranked 9th). So if this is all about strength of conference, then I'd be a little hesitant to brag up any affiliation with the SEC.

And for the record, Gonzaga has already played and beaten two respected SEC basketball schools, Florida and Tennessee (who beat Kentucky but fell off later in the year). The Zags have also beaten every other school from every other P5 conference that they've played this year. So while some folks want to squint to try to find rationale for optimism in some pre-conference margins of victory...well, the early nay-sayers argued that Gonzaga wasn't battle-tested because they didn't play in enough competitive games. It can't be both. Either those close contests with those P5 schools hardened us for the challenge, or they are a sign of weakness. Which is it?

It really boils down to matchups and discipline. Both side present match-up challenges for the other, though most basketball people believe Gonzaga has the advantage. And Gonzaga has shown themselves to be highly disciplined all year. I suspect it'll be a competitive game, but if the Zags play anywhere near their potential, it'll be the end of a comparatively great season for the Gamecocks, conference affiliations notwithstanding.

GrizZAG
03-29-2017, 05:25 AM
One stat that is kind of meaningless IMO is win margin. Few could have blown those numbers much higher leaving in the starters but we know MF does not do that typically as he puts the entire bench in pretty much when we get a comfortable margin. He is respected for not wanting to embarrass any team, he is a gentleman and a class act we are very proud of. In some ways personally I wish he would let them run it up so the eye test is pretty darn clear. That's not how he rolls and we love him for it.

TexasZagFan
03-29-2017, 05:37 AM
One stat that is kind of meaningless IMO is win margin. Few could have blown those numbers much higher leaving in the starters but we know MF does not do that typically as he puts the entire bench in pretty much when we get a comfortable margin. He is respected for not wanting to embarrass any team, he is a gentleman and a class act we are very proud of. In some ways personally I wish he would let them run it up so the eye test is pretty darn clear. That's not how he rolls and we love him for it.

Great point, Griz. There were at least a half dozen games when 9-13 entered the game with 4-5 minutes left in the game. I don't think he was doing it to be a nice guy, he was looking ahead to March, and it paid off. Suffering from foul trouble in the first half against WVU, he inserted Rui (4 minutes) and Jeremy (1 minute), and they did their jobs. They didn't look overwhelmed; rather, both were ready for the moment.

This year was completely different than last year, when we played most of the season with 7 scholarship players. Having a dozen or more quality players can be a challenge: there's only one basketball and 200 minutes of playing time per game to spread around. The record speaks for itself, has another coach done a better job this year than Mark Few?

Bogozags
03-29-2017, 05:37 AM
might be part of it
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18272744/suspended-south-carolina-guard-sindarius-thornwell-arrested-marijuana-charge

I remember when two of our players crossed the line with shrooms and they were suspended for the remainder of the season. NCAA Div 1 basketball and football is all about money and not ethics...Duke suspends Allen "indefinitely" for one game...Oklahoma places one of their athletes, who was arrested for sexual assault, on a RS season and then he comes back the next year...FSU's quarterback steals lobsters and people laugh...with Power Five schools it is all about the money, which is why Thornwell was allowed to play this season...at GU history shows he would not have been playing this season if at all in the future.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 06:44 AM
I welcome you to the board also. Thanks for the insight.

However we have seen #4 and #5 ranked defenses. Our defense is #1 which is tough to get because it's ADJUSTED FOR SOS ....We've beaten the press, and Florida. Between that Florida game and West Virginia our overall defense got tons better.

What you need to realize is that Gonzaga had one returning starter (Josh Perkins), 3 transfers and a guy coming back from back surgery. We had to schedule tough games early without even knowing how we would mesh or knowing how well we would do. Like you said we won all of them, got really lucky at times too. Our defense really start really clicking till January. That's when we knew we had a powerhouse defense. You could see the rotation and help defense start being clearer and the sets were much cleaner.

Weaker competition sure but if you actually watch it you knew.

It was also really evident early too against San Diego State when you saw a lot of fastbreak steals that the kids studied the scouting report. The defense is suffocating.

I know about thornwell. My Kentucky friends have been on him since day one. What I'm interested in is Silvia and Felder. That may be the difference in the game.

Good luck

Thanks for the welcome.

As I've stated, I've given the Zags tons of credit on defense. It's why I picked your team for the championship game. I just don't think you are giving ours enough credit. That #1 ranking is just that - a ranking. It just seems to me that some of you think it is preposterous that our defense can't be as good as yours. I've given you credit for your defense but some on here don't want to believe that we could be better. We will see on Saturday.

As for Silva and Felder. Good insights. As stated, we are not a one man team. We are balanced with Sindarius being the leader and leading scorer. Dozier needs to play well also for us to have a shot.

The Zags are favored and they should be. However, we are playing our best basketball of the season, have a defense just as good as yours, and we have a chance. I believe our team can struggle with your bigs and based on how your defense plays, we might struggle on offense (hopefully we've figured some stuff out as evidenced by the tournament).

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 06:53 AM
I think all of this yacking about, "we're great because we are a P5 school and you're not because you aren't" is just comical. First, the SEC is at the BOTTOM of the P5 rankings and save Kentucky and Florida, hasn't really been considered a very good basketball conference; although, this year they had a better run than in most years. With that said, the SEC is still a middle-of-the-road conference that doesn't rate (ranked 5th in RPI) significantly higher than the lowly WCC (ranked 9th). So if this is all about strength of conference, then I'd be a little hesitant to brag up any affiliation with the SEC.

And for the record, Gonzaga has already played and beaten two respected SEC basketball schools, Florida and Tennessee (who beat Kentucky but fell off later in the year). The Zags have also beaten every other school from every other P5 conference that they've played this year. So while some folks want to squint to try to find rationale for optimism in some pre-conference margins of victory...well, the early nay-sayers argued that Gonzaga wasn't battle-tested because they didn't play in enough competitive games. It can't be both. Either those close contests with those P5 schools hardened us for the challenge, or they are a sign of weakness. Which is it?

It really boils down to matchups and discipline. Both side present match-up challenges for the other, though most basketball people believe Gonzaga has the advantage. And Gonzaga has shown themselves to be highly disciplined all year. I suspect it'll be a competitive game, but if the Zags play anywhere near their potential, it'll be the end of a comparatively great season for the Gamecocks, conference affiliations notwithstanding.

I know this is a longer thread and you may not have read every post. But there is nothing in your post which I haven't said already. Yes, I mentioned we were considered one of the weak P5 conferences. Trust me - when you play next to the ACC, you are going to get a lot of the put downs and being looked down upon. College basketball pundits did it all year with our conference. That's why it was nice when we went 4-1 to open the tournament (only loss was Vandy and they should have won) and then had 3 teams in the Elite 8 while UNC was the only ACC team in the Sweet 16.

Your arguments about the Zags and who they've played are falling on deaf ears because I've already made those points that you played some tough OOC games and won. My only argument is that your defense would not be as good or highly ranked if you played outside the WCC. Again, you won your conference games by an average of 84-59. You wouldn't do that if you played even in a "weak" P5 conference like the SEC. Games against P5 schools (excluding Washington) were all much closer games (as they should be).

I agree your team is the better team. However, so was Duke, Baylor, and Florida. Just because you are better, favored, more tested, higher ranked, etc doesn't mean you can't be beat. BYU beat you and I think we are better than them. Why can't we win? Just like you guys don't like being overlooked and have a chip on your shoulder because you aren't a P5 school, we don't like being dismissed and looked down upon thinking you are superior just because you are ranked higher. We've proven in the tournament we can play with anyone and our defense is just as good as yours. So respect for your opponent works both ways.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 06:57 AM
I remember when two of our players crossed the line with shrooms and they were suspended for the remainder of the season. NCAA Div 1 basketball and football is all about money and not ethics...Duke suspends Allen "indefinitely" for one game...Oklahoma places one of their athletes, who was arrested for sexual assault, on a RS season and then he comes back the next year...FSU's quarterback steals lobsters and people laugh...with Power Five schools it is all about the money, which is why Thornwell was allowed to play this season...at GU history shows he would not have been playing this season if at all in the future.

To be fair, Thornwell was suspended 6 games for this. Not exactly a light punishment. We were never even told why he was punished. There was speculation all year over this. In all of our other sports, we are one of the most disciplined and strict teams when it comes to punishment. We don't play around. We don't have athletes get in as much trouble as other schools. So it's not fair at all to lump us in with all these other P5 schools. We are in the SEC and do get high profile athletes. Every school has player issues. However, we probably are one of the most disciplined teams with the least amount of trouble in the SEC.

Goshzagit
03-29-2017, 07:00 AM
Only one team in the NCAA Tournament scored above 59 points on us, and that was Northwestern. Our defense travels well, as you will see.


Something I haven't heard mentioned, by analysts or us, yet in this Tournament:

we held West Virginia to their 2nd lowest score all season. (only K-State held them to less pts, & K-State still lost the game).

we also held Xavier to their 2nd lowest score all season. (only Nova held them to less pts, 57)

we held South Dakota St to their 1st lowest score all season. (no one came close).

not as impressive, but still interesting, we held Northwestern to their lowest scoring half all season (no one came close).

------------

South Carolina's defense is ranked #2 for a reason.

They held Baylor to their lowest score all season, but not in wins vs Marquette, Duke, or Florida. They just outplayed them, also S.C. has knocked down the foul shots consistently all Tourney. Some of their bigs have kinda come out of nowhere.

We also held Florida to the same point total as S.C. and that was WITH Egunbu.

-----------

South Carolina has frustrated every guard tandem they've played. They fouled the heck outta Grayson and Kennard for Duke, but still frustrated them. The strategy paid off as they both forced a ton of chitty shots. Also, racked up 18 TO's, which is a ton for them. Credit to S.C.

They don't let you shoot 3pt shots, thus we won't see many open looks. At least not from our guards.

But again, South Carolina must be concerned about Collins and Karnowski.

I spent last night watching every game South Carolina has played this tournament. Outside of Amile Jefferson (only 6'9"), they haven't faced a single scoring post player. A true post with skill which leads their team inside out.

Amile Jefferson had 15 & 15 vs them. Only Duke player to hurt them and not surprisingly a post player. Baylor's post had 18 & 10, but mostly athletic plays again.

I'm not saying they haven't faced very talented, athletic, rangy, long post players. They have. Baylor has a few of them, but none like ours. Not one team they have played since entering NCAA has played inside out.

While S.C. does a tremendous job denying entry passes, they take a risk by playing so far past the 3pt line. Its like a half court pressure press D, the leave the inside open. Rely on their range and toughness to defend inside and outside.

When guards are able to find a guy posted up underneath, they have made S.C. pay the price. Duke did it, until Grayson tried taking over.

Marquette, Duke, and especially Florida relies on wing play and guard penetration. All good things, but again, none play through the interior like we do. I honestly believe South Caroline may have to play a junk defense or even zone vs us, which they aren't very used to it seems.

After watching their games, you can't help but be impressed with the conditioning they have, and strength. Thornwell is like a mini Lebron at NCAA level. Doesn't impress you with speed, but just his will, strength, and size take over. Also though, their intensity maintains strong all 40 mins. As teams fade down the stretch, they get stronger, faster. Look like they all take shots of adrenaline at half or something.

They simply shut down opposing guards. Florida guards shot 0-14 3pt in 2nd half. Baylor shot 3-13 3pt. Duke shot well below their average, yet attempted 30 FT's.

The good news, we have more than one scoring big, technically, we have 3, and the 4th should shoot more.

This will help us, as we can't expect our guards to get open looks or drives. We must establish inside play/scoring, or we're toast.

S.C. guards really do play like Xavier…and West Va to an extent. They drive at you, not around you. They seek baseline (a ton), and as USCJeremy won't admit, they TRY and draw fouls.

Thornwell is their main weapon, but its Dozier who is considered the prime NBA prospect, he also does damage. A terrific scorer and penetrator. Can't figure out why teams guard him on the perimeter, he's awful from 3pt, and he burns anyone who pressures him. I hope our guys gamble and give him the 3pt shot -- and clean up the rebound.

We can't just focus on Thornwell, yet we consistently do well vs *star* players. We seem to devise a nice game plan to defend. We will see how this plays out.

We have a huge advantage in the post, can we continue to exploit it. They have an advantage on the perimeter, when you consider scoring, size.

It should make for an entertaining game.

Top-2 defenses going at it.

Have a feeling we are vastly underrating their D, as much as they are underrating our D. We compliment it, but don't truly respect it. Same applies to them.

Both D's are fantastic for different reasons. We have a multi layer approach to defending with execution and size inside, while they have the size, strength, and athleticism to pressure for 40 mins.

Someone will pull away down the stretch. I don't feel this ends like WVU game. One team is winning this by 8-10 pts.

willandi
03-29-2017, 07:01 AM
Thanks for the welcome.

As I've stated, I've given the Zags tons of credit on defense. It's why I picked your team for the championship game. I just don't think you are giving ours enough credit. That #1 ranking is just that - a ranking. It just seems to me that some of you think it is preposterous that our defense can't be as good as yours. I've given you credit for your defense but some on here don't want to believe that we could be better. We will see on Saturday.

As for Silva and Felder. Good insights. As stated, we are not a one man team. We are balanced with Sindarius being the leader and leading scorer. Dozier needs to play well also for us to have a shot.

The Zags are favored and they should be. However, we are playing our best basketball of the season, have a defense just as good as yours, and we have a chance. I believe our team can struggle with your bigs and based on how your defense plays, we might struggle on offense (hopefully we've figured some stuff out as evidenced by the tournament).

You are right that it will be decided on the floor.

I think the fans here do give the SC defense credit, but the Zags defense is rated 1.9 higher, whereas there are 4 teams rated that close to SC. We aren't even talking about offense, which isn't comparable.

I expect that Thornhill will get his points, but, as has been the case in every other tournament game, they will be less than his season average,

I think Silva and Felder will be in foul trouble, and your suffocating defense will become even more porous.

You haven't played a defense like Gonzaga! I know you will argue that you have, but the Zags are the adjusted #1 and you haven't played the Zags, so you couldn't have.

You have played Kentucky, which is .3 ahead of the Zags on offense, but I don't think you can outscore the Zags, because of defense.

It isn't that we are disrespecting you, it's that you use numbers, ratings to try and prove your point and then discount the ratings. SC is playing great. It will be a great game and either team could come out on top, especially if the refs allow a lot of grabbing , slapping, moving screens etc. Gonzaga tries to play a cleaner game than most teams. I hope the game is called square, no matter how the calls go, and, meaning no disrespect, the Number 1 defense will lead the Zags to a victory by 8-12 points on Saturday.

BUT, we'll all see then. I look forward to the game.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 07:06 AM
Thanks for posting this cad, SeCJeremy.... almost had me convinced that GU should stay in Spokane and have their FF Participant ribbons mailed to them. Saturday's game should be a tough defensive contest. I can see the game causing a multitude of Maalox moments with the final score being in the 60s like the GU-WVU game.

So. Carolina is a Hot team and in 1 game the better team doesn't always win so the GCocks could certainly win. I'm feeling pretty good about my pick (Not Reborn good, but good) on the Homerism prediction thread. I picked 71-64 without knowing the KenPom predicted score.

Go Zags!

By those numbers and what everyone else is posting about our offense and that the Zags defense, I don't even know why we are showing up. We should just forfeit since you guys are going to win anyways. Heck, Pomeroy predicted it. Vegas says it. The Zags would be SEC champs. So it must be so.

Seriously guys. As much as you don't like being put down by P5 schools, we don't like being underestimated and put down either. I've said all along the Zags are a good team and I even went so far as putting my money where my mouth is and predicting the Zags in the championship. But I also never thought we would be in the Final Four and beat Duke, Baylor, and Florida. So if I or Pomeroy or Vegas can be wrong about our team, so can you.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 07:07 AM
Every team's board we played made precisely this argument, but failed to remember the nuance that the defensive ratings are adjusted for the opponents' offensive efficiency.

And those same defensive rankings also say that you haven't played a defense as good as ours all year. It works both ways.

gozagswoohoo
03-29-2017, 07:10 AM
That's great. With those numbers, there's no need to play the game anymore. Let's just let them decide it on paper.

Yes. Please. Let's do that. It would be SO much easier on my heart!!

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 07:18 AM
Yes. Please. Let's do that. It would be SO much easier on my heart!!

If it was decided on paper, we never would have made it out of the first round. We are playing with house money now. These games are stressful but for us, we've got nothing to lose at this point. There's no pressure on us. No matter what happens, we've had an awesome season and have exceeded all expectations.

Hoopaholic
03-29-2017, 07:22 AM
I guess I am baffled by the constant harping by Jeremy about how vaunted the SC defense is all year yet had ignored that in the tournament

SC. Giving up 71 points per game.

Zags giving up 59 points per game

Sc has given up 33. 51. 28. And 30 points in second halves of games in tournament. Average of 37
Zags has given up 24. 53. 28. And 20 in second halves. Average of 31

Sc has given up average of 33 in first half
Zags has given up average of 29


Also seems to me SC has flourished on the break in the tournament scoring 54. 65. 33 and 44 in second halfs to win
Incredible numbers.


DEFENSIVELY. Zags have shown be better in tournament than SC

Offensively I think zags defense match and aliGns against SC offensive productivity

But SC does not match up defensively against zags offensive options

willandi
03-29-2017, 07:32 AM
I guess I am baffled by the constant harping by Jeremy about how vaunted the SC defense is all year yet had ignored that in the tournament

SC. Giving up 71 points per game.

Zags giving up 59 points per game

Sc has given up 33. 51. 28. And 30 points in second halves of games in tournament. Average of 37
Zags has given up 24. 53. 28. And 20 in second halves. Average of 31

Sc has given up average of 33 in first half
Zags has given up average of 29


Also seems to me SC has flourished on the break in the tournament scoring 54. 65. 33 and 44 in second halfs to win
Incredible numbers.


DEFENSIVELY. Zags have shown be better in tournament than SC

Offensively I think zags defense match and aliGns against SC offensive productivity

But SC does not match up defensively against zags offensive options

But using facts makes Jeremy think we are delusional and being disrespectful! At least that's what he says on the 'Cocks board.

ZagLawGrad
03-29-2017, 07:33 AM
If it was decided on paper, we never would have made it out of the first round. We are playing with house money now. These games are stressful but for us, we've got nothing to lose at this point. There's no pressure on us. No matter what happens, we've had an awesome season and have exceeded all expectations.

I agree that S. Carolina is playing on house money. The only question is whether it will last one or two more games. Hot dang, I'm looking forward to finding out.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 07:33 AM
Something I haven't heard mentioned, by analysts or us, yet in this Tournament:

we held West Virginia to their 2nd lowest score all season. (only K-State held them to less pts, & K-State still lost the game).

we also held Xavier to their 2nd lowest score all season. (only Nova held them to less pts, 57)

we held South Dakota St to their 1st lowest score all season. (no one came close).

not as impressive, but still interesting, we held Northwestern to their lowest scoring half all season (no one came close).

------------

South Carolina's defense is ranked #2 for a reason.

They held Baylor to their lowest score all season, but not in wins vs Marquette, Duke, or Florida. They just outplayed them, also S.C. has knocked down the foul shots consistently all Tourney. Some of their bigs have kinda come out of nowhere.

We also held Florida to the same point total as S.C. and that was WITH Egunbu.

-----------

South Carolina has frustrated every guard tandem they've played. They fouled the heck outta Grayson and Kennard for Duke, but still frustrated them. The strategy paid off as they both forced a ton of chitty shots. Also, racked up 18 TO's, which is a ton for them. Credit to S.C.

They don't let you shoot 3pt shots, thus we won't see many open looks. At least not from our guards.

But again, South Carolina must be concerned about Collins and Karnowski.

I spent last night watching every game South Carolina has played this tournament. Outside of Amile Jefferson (only 6'9"), they haven't faced a single scoring post player. A true post with skill which leads their team inside out.

Amile Jefferson had 15 & 15 vs them. Only Duke player to hurt them and not surprisingly a post player. Baylor's post had 18 & 10, but mostly athletic plays again.

I'm not saying they haven't faced very talented, athletic, rangy, long post players. They have. Baylor has a few of them, but none like ours. Not one team they have played since entering NCAA has played inside out.

While S.C. does a tremendous job denying entry passes, they take a risk by playing so far past the 3pt line. Its like a half court pressure press D, the leave the inside open. Rely on their range and toughness to defend inside and outside.

When guards are able to find a guy posted up underneath, they have made S.C. pay the price. Duke did it, until Grayson tried taking over.

Marquette, Duke, and especially Florida relies on wing play and guard penetration. All good things, but again, none play through the interior like we do. I honestly believe South Caroline may have to play a junk defense or even zone vs us, which they aren't very used to it seems.

After watching their games, you can't help but be impressed with the conditioning they have, and strength. Thornwell is like a mini Lebron at NCAA level. Doesn't impress you with speed, but just his will, strength, and size take over. Also though, their intensity maintains strong all 40 mins. As teams fade down the stretch, they get stronger, faster. Look like they all take shots of adrenaline at half or something.

They simply shut down opposing guards. Florida guards shot 0-14 3pt in 2nd half. Baylor shot 3-13 3pt. Duke shot well below their average, yet attempted 30 FT's.

The good news, we have more than one scoring big, technically, we have 3, and the 4th should shoot more.

This will help us, as we can't expect our guards to get open looks or drives. We must establish inside play/scoring, or we're toast.

S.C. guards really do play like Xavier…and West Va to an extent. They drive at you, not around you. They seek baseline (a ton), and as USCJeremy won't admit, they TRY and draw fouls.

Thornwell is their main weapon, but its Dozier who is considered the prime NBA prospect, he also does damage. A terrific scorer and penetrator. Can't figure out why teams guard him on the perimeter, he's awful from 3pt, and he burns anyone who pressures him. I hope our guys gamble and give him the 3pt shot -- and clean up the rebound.

We can't just focus on Thornwell, yet we consistently do well vs *star* players. We seem to devise a nice game plan to defend. We will see how this plays out.

We have a huge advantage in the post, can we continue to exploit it. They have an advantage on the perimeter, when you consider scoring, size.

It should make for an entertaining game.

Top-2 defenses going at it.

Have a feeling we are vastly underrating their D, as much as they are underrating our D. We compliment it, but don't truly respect it. Same applies to them.

Both D's are fantastic for different reasons. We have a multi layer approach to defending with execution and size inside, while they have the size, strength, and athleticism to pressure for 40 mins.

Someone will pull away down the stretch. I don't feel this ends like WVU game. One team is winning this by 8-10 pts.

This is probably the most thorough, honest, and spot on post in this thread. Someone who finally gets our team. For the most part, I would agree with everything in here.

Here's the one thing I disagree with - fouls. Our team has drawn fouls in this tournament. They have called a LOT of ticky tack fouls. There was an enormous number of fouls in that Duke game. That is NOT a reflection of us but the way the refs were calling things. Duke had guys foul out. We had guys in foul trouble. There were some awful calls on us that were flat out not fouls. I think the argument for that game is that Duke wasn't supposed to lose and the refs called a lot of fouls so they wouldn't. However, that game was not reflective of how we play. We don't score 65 points in a half, shoot 71%, or get called for a lot of aggressive fouls.

Also, we are not an offense that drives and looks to get fouled. That's happened some in this tournament but it is not the way we play. It's the way things have been called but our offense isn't dependent on going to the line. Go back and look at our box scores. Lots of games where we didn't get to the FT line that much.

As for Silva, SEC refs were brutal on Silva. He was ALWAYS in foul trouble. I think part of this is him getting smarter but the tournament refs are calling things more straight up even though more fouls are being called. In the SEC, Silva would get called for fouls based on reputation. In the tournament, he is staying out of foul trouble. However, staying out of foul trouble against the Zags is essential. We just don't have much depth down low. Same with Kotsar. He is still a freshman but has played hard. I am not sure there is a player in the tournament who has missed more layups that him. Yet he has been unfortunate to be called for fouls that weren't fouls. Both need to stay out of foul trouble.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 07:40 AM
I guess I am baffled by the constant harping by Jeremy about how vaunted the SC defense is all year yet had ignored that in the tournament

SC. Giving up 71 points per game.

Zags giving up 59 points per game

Sc has given up 33. 51. 28. And 30 points in second halves of games in tournament. Average of 37
Zags has given up 24. 53. 28. And 20 in second halves. Average of 31

Sc has given up average of 33 in first half
Zags has given up average of 29


Also seems to me SC has flourished on the break in the tournament scoring 54. 65. 33 and 44 in second halfs to win
Incredible numbers.


DEFENSIVELY. Zags have shown be better in tournament than SC

Offensively I think zags defense match and aliGns against SC offensive productivity

But SC does not match up defensively against zags offensive options

Your numbers about how we've scored in the second half are why the defensive numbers are slightly higher. We are NOT a bad defense. However, when the pace of the game changes and we start running up and down the floor like we did with Duke and Marquette, then points on both sides are higher. That doesn't mean our defense was worse but the pace and style of the game changed. Asked Duke if we were tough on defense. As Coach K said, we were the most physical team he has played all year. We scored 65 in the second half. And yet he was saying that about our defense.

So here's the key thing to remember. We've been able to play great defense and still run up and down the court to score with teams. We've also been able to play a half court games and absolutely shut teams down (Baylor). I thought the Florida game was our worst defensive effort of the tournament yet we still scored 77, held them to 0-14 from 3 pt range, and won.

You can't just look at the numbers and not watch the game. We put up points but we also played great defense. Our FG percentages, amount of TOs, 3 pt FG percentage, etc are all better indicators of how good our defense has been than the number of points we've given up. Number of points just shows we are capable of playing different styles, still playing good defense, and winning.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 07:47 AM
But using facts makes Jeremy think we are delusional and being disrespectful! At least that's what he says on the 'Cocks board.

Sorry but facts can be used to say what you want them to say. We were running up and down the floor with Duke and Marquette - something we don't normally do. But we still played good defense. Points scored against us isn't a reflection of whether our defense is good but the style and pace of the game. There is a huge difference and I hope you understand that. We physically dominated and controlled teams even when we were playing at a faster pace.

And no, I have not said you are delusional and disrespectful on our board. I have been nothing but complimentary of your board. I have said that we aren't getting the respect that we deserve because you guys can't possibly think we are as good as you. I think that's a pretty fair assessment. That's fair cry from calling your delusional and disrespectful.

rennis
03-29-2017, 07:51 AM
I have said that we aren't getting the respect that we deserve because you guys can't possibly think we are as good as you. I think that's a pretty fair assessment. That's fair cry from calling your delusional and disrespectful.

I think there has been plenty of respect given to SC in this thread and others. They're a great team who made the final four and will be taken very seriously. I haven't seen one comment that suggests any of us think this game will be a walk in the park. Merely that based on a lot of stats there is a reason the Zags are favored and we are hopeful and somewhat optimistic for our chances as fans to celebrate a win on Saturday.

I'd give it a bit of a rest, were I in your shoes Jeremy. Welcome to the board!

RenoZag
03-29-2017, 07:52 AM
Other posters on the Cocky forum have called Zag fans delusional ( and worse ). Mr. Jeremy hasn't been one of them ( at least in the thread on his board referring to his visits here)

I don't have an issue with a fervent fan defending his team. At least the level of discourse is better than " You guys suck" " Your guys suck more"

Is it Saturday yet ?

team6
03-29-2017, 07:54 AM
Sorry but facts can be used to say what you want them to say. We were running up and down the floor with Duke and Marquette - something we don't normally do. But we still played good defense. Points scored against us isn't a reflection of whether our defense is good but the style and pace of the game. There is a huge difference and I hope you understand that. We physically dominated and controlled teams even when we were playing at a faster pace.

And no, I have not said you are delusional and disrespectful on our board. I have been nothing but complimentary of your board. I have said that we aren't getting the respect that we deserve because you guys can't possibly think we are as good as you. I think that's a pretty fair assessment. That's fair cry from calling your delusional and disrespectful.

You bring up running up and down the court, the zags play at a faster tempo then sc so bringing up running up and down is something the zags are fine with. And also I've looked at your schedule i counted 15 bad teams you've played, with the zags i counted 20 so really not a big difference with scheduling, that you want to perk up your defense with. I've watched all of sc games in the tourney this year, shoot i've watched almost every tourney game. I don't think you're that much better then smc or xavier, but that's just my opinion. We have to play the game and in that huge stadium that neither team has experience playing in, anything can happen.

northsidezagfan
03-29-2017, 07:54 AM
Points scored against us isn't a reflection of whether our defense is good but the style and pace of the game. There is a huge difference and I hope you understand that.

Sooo this is exactly what KenPom controls for (in addition to strength of who you play), and he says we are a better defense. We play fast AND don't give up a lot of points.

LongIslandZagFan
03-29-2017, 07:54 AM
Sorry but facts can be used to say what you want them to say. We were running up and down the floor with Duke and Marquette - something we don't normally do. But we still played good defense. Points scored against us isn't a reflection of whether our defense is good but the style and pace of the game. There is a huge difference and I hope you understand that. We physically dominated and controlled teams even when we were playing at a faster pace.

And no, I have not said you are delusional and disrespectful on our board. I have been nothing but complimentary of your board. I have said that we aren't getting the respect that we deserve because you guys can't possibly think we are as good as you. I think that's a pretty fair assessment. That's fair cry from calling your delusional and disrespectful.

KenPom adjusts for competition... does your analysis do the same? Just curious, because whenever anything is brought up for Gonzaga in the postiive, we are told by you that we are wrong... even KenPom is wrong. Because of the competition (that KenPom adjusts for). So... lets just see what happens in the game.

Zagdawg
03-29-2017, 07:54 AM
And thats why they play the game ....... Come on Saturday lets get here.

LongIslandZagFan
03-29-2017, 07:55 AM
Sooo this is exactly what KenPom controls for (in addition to strength of who you play), and he says we are a better defense. We play fast AND don't give up a lot of points.

His analysis supercedes KenPom.

northsidezagfan
03-29-2017, 07:58 AM
His analysis supercedes KenPom.

Transcendent.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 07:59 AM
KenPom adjusts for competition... does your analysis do the same? Just curious, because whenever anything is brought up for Gonzaga in the postiive, we are told by you that we are wrong... even KenPom is wrong. Because of the competition (that KenPom adjusts for). So... lets just see what happens in the game.

So you are #1 in defense and we are #2. We all know stats are never wrong so clearly you are the better defensive team and there's no way we could ever be better defensively than you since we are ranked #2 right?

That's the sum of your arguments on this board correct? Or did I miss something? I can't bring in a separate analysis or opinion because facts are facts - you're #1 and we're #2 and there is absolutely no way those numbers can be wrong since they take into account the competition played.

Got it. You're #1 and no defense in all of basketball is possibly better than yours. Not even the #2 team. Because Pomeroy and the adjusted calculations said so. Honestly, I am not even sure why we are playing the game. This has already been decided on paper and the facts are clear.

team6
03-29-2017, 08:01 AM
Funny thing is I had marquette loosing to smu in the sweet 16 because I thought both duke and baylor were vastly overrated. I knew neither of those teams were going to the elite 8, it just happened to be sc. Then they got to play a conference team in the elite 8, I just have no clue how good they really are. I feel like the zags could win by 20 or loose a close one, I just have no idea. But their wins over duke and baylor don't impress me all that much. But our win over northwestern doesn't impress me either, should have won that game by 30.

northsidezagfan
03-29-2017, 08:05 AM
So you are #1 in defense and we are #2. We all know stats are never wrong so clearly you are the better defensive team and there's no way we could ever be better defensively than you since we are ranked #2 right?

That's the sum of your arguments on this board correct? Or did I miss something? I can't bring in a separate analysis or opinion because facts are facts - you're #1 and we're #2 and there is absolutely no way those numbers can be wrong since they take into account the competition played.

Got it. You're #1 and no defense in all of basketball is possibly better than yours. Not even the #2 team. Because Pomeroy and the adjusted calculations said so. Honestly, I am not even sure why we are playing the game. This has already been decided on paper and the facts are clear.

Do you have something better to go off of besides your gestalt? Can it even be judged by one game on Saturday, or is an entire season of objective data better?

LongIslandZagFan
03-29-2017, 08:08 AM
So you are #1 in defense and we are #2. We all know stats are never wrong so clearly you are the better defensive team and there's no way we could ever be better defensively than you since we are ranked #2 right?

That's the sum of your arguments on this board correct? Or did I miss something? I can't bring in a separate analysis or opinion because facts are facts - you're #1 and we're #2 and there is absolutely no way those numbers can be wrong since they take into account the competition played.

Got it. You're #1 and no defense in all of basketball is possibly better than yours. Not even the #2 team. Because Pomeroy and the adjusted calculations said so. Honestly, I am not even sure why we are playing the game. This has already been decided on paper and the facts are clear.

Actually the sum of YOUR argument is we faced weak competition... and from what you seem to be saying on YOUR board... that we aren't really all that good and we just don't get how great your team is.

Most here expect a tough game. Lets put it this way... Take two teams... both with essentially equal defenses... now team a has one of the top offenses in the country and the other is a middling offense at best... all of this adjusted for the level of competition... taking the teams out of it... one has to expect that if any team is going to "give" it is the team that doesn't score as much and is facing the best defense it will face all year.

But you are here saying we just can't compete with you and on YOUR board you are saying how dumb we are and that your analysis is so much better.

Have you ever thought that maybe your team's #2 ranking is the wrong one??? If stats can be wrong... it cuts both ways.

willandi
03-29-2017, 08:09 AM
So you are #1 in defense and we are #2. We all know stats are never wrong so clearly you are the better defensive team and there's no way we could ever be better defensively than you since we are ranked #2 right?

That's the sum of your arguments on this board correct? Or did I miss something? I can't bring in a separate analysis or opinion because facts are facts - you're #1 and we're #2 and there is absolutely no way those numbers can be wrong since they take into account the competition played.

Got it. You're #1 and no defense in all of basketball is possibly better than yours. Not even the #2 team. Because Pomeroy and the adjusted calculations said so. Honestly, I am not even sure why we are playing the game. This has already been decided on paper and the facts are clear.

Aren't you the one talking about how good the 'Cocks defense is? When shown actual game numbers, they still come in behind the Zags.

Are you going to use rankings or intuition? It has to be one or the other.

The reason most think the Zags will win is twofold. The first is, despite your defense, the Zags rate out higher. The second is offense, The Zags are better there too...even if you only include tournament games.

What part of that is so hard to comprehend?

You have been welcomed here, but none of the Zags are posting on your forum, which is unusual. If you think it's strange that going to an opponents forum, claiming that you are better and are disrespected, then You must be a bit delusional.

At any rate, we'll see on Saturday. Good luck!

GoZags
03-29-2017, 08:18 AM
What part ..... is so hard to comprehend?
!

Here's what I comprehend.

South Carolina has 10 times as many losses as the Zags so far this season.
Saturday night that number will climb to 11 times as many losses as the Zags.

Yeah .... I know that 3 of those double digit losses came when the Gamecocks were without Thornwell.
But I've just rewatched their Duke game .... Duke just didn't (couldn't) get the ball inside. It's my belief that the Zags will

DixieZag
03-29-2017, 08:20 AM
All I know is that the "very hot team" that has a player we simply can't stop and our conference doesn't prepare us for the type of guys we'll be seeing sounds real familiar.

The team with fans that told us that all last week limped home with a 24 point loss and a leading scorer who finished the game almost exactly 14 points under that which he'd been averaging. Which, in a lot of people's minds, is a pretty good metric of defense in and of itself.

I suspect that So.Car. wil play us tougher than Xavier, and I am very weary of being over-confident, but given what just happened one game ago, I think there's a right to be confident going into this game.

Though, he does make a point regarding our defense's penchant for giving up leads in the second half. We just have to hope that our last two games (especially Xavier, where we widened our lead) are the new norm in this newly intense environment.

Last thing, the whole dome thing offsetting outside shooting really should favor us since we'll likely be pounding the ball inside to Shem/Zach/JWIII and getting their 2 bigs into foul trouble. My real hope is that both their bigs have 2 fouls by the 10:00 of the first half, forcing a very red-faced Martin to make a pretty tough decision.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 08:21 AM
SC. Giving up 71 points per game.
Zags giving up 59 points per game

Some of you guys love to use stats. Like the one above. Or the one about Zags being #1 in adjusted defense and we're #2 (and how that can't possibly be wrong or we can't possibly be better because hey, it was adjusted for competition).

So let me address the stats above about about the points given up in the tournament. As I stated, stats can say anything you want but sometimes you have to look deeper to understand them. So let's do that.

SC's opponents in the Tournament (PPG ranking)
Marquette - 17th
Duke - 27th
Florida - 67th
Baylor - 181st

So we've played some decent offenses in the tournament. Yet all 4 teams we held at or below their scoring average for the season. 3 of those teams were held under their scoring average (and a couple by quite a good margin). Held Baylor to their lowest point total of the season. And all of them shot the ball poorly against our defense.

But hey, we gave up 71 points per game in the tournament so we're not as good as the Zags right?

Zags' opponents in the Tournament (PPG ranking):
San Diego St - 281st
Northwestern - 229th
West Virginia - 24th
Xavier - 143rd

So Zags played far worse offenses than what we played. Zags held 3 of their 4 opponents to under their scoring averages including West Virginia's lowest point total. But by comparison, they played far worse offenses than the teams we played.

So you see, comparing team by team and how teams you played scored less against you and what teams scored against us isn't fair. The offenses you played were worse than the ones we played.

So 71 and 59 doesn't really tell the whole story does it? That's why it's important to not gloss over numbers, take them as fact, and draw conclusions about the numbers without understanding the entire story. That's the point I've been trying to make in all these stats posted. They can be deceiving. The fact you are #1 in adjusted defense or have given up fewer points in us in the tournament doesn't make you better.

team6
03-29-2017, 08:27 AM
Some of you guys love to use stats. Like the one above. Or the one about Zags being #1 in adjusted defense and we're #2 (and how that can't possibly be wrong or we can't possibly be better because hey, it was adjusted for competition).

So let me address the stats above about about the points given up in the tournament. As I stated, stats can say anything you want but sometimes you have to look deeper to understand them. So let's do that.

SC's opponents in the Tournament (PPG ranking)
Marquette - 17th
Duke - 27th
Florida - 67th
Baylor - 181st

So we've played some decent offenses in the tournament. Yet all 4 teams we held at or below their scoring average for the season. 3 of those teams were held under their scoring average (and a couple by quite a good margin). Held Baylor to their lowest point total of the season. And all of them shot the ball poorly against our defense.

But hey, we gave up 71 points per game in the tournament so we're not as good as the Zags right?

Zags' opponents in the Tournament (PPG ranking):
San Diego St - 281st
Northwestern - 229th
West Virginia - 24th
Xavier - 143rd

So Zags played far worse offenses than what we played. Zags held 3 of their 4 opponents to under their scoring averages including West Virginia's lowest point total. But by comparison, they played far worse offenses than the teams we played.

So you see, comparing team by team and how teams you played scored less against you and what teams scored against us isn't fair. The offenses you played were worse than the ones we played.

So 71 and 59 doesn't really tell the whole story does it? That's why it's important to not gloss over numbers, take them as fact, and draw conclusions about the numbers without understanding the entire story. That's the point I've been trying to make in all these stats posted. They can be deceiving. The fact you are #1 in adjusted defense or have given up fewer points in us in the tournament doesn't make you better.

I think shooting % are better indication then ppg... You can lower ppg just by pacing the game slower.

northsidezagfan
03-29-2017, 08:28 AM
Here's what I comprehend.

South Carolina has 10 times as many losses as the Zags so far this season.
Saturday night that number will climb to 11 times as many losses as the Zags.

Yeah .... I know that 3 of those double digit losses came when the Gamecocks were without Thornwell.
But I've just rewatched their Duke game .... Duke just didn't (couldn't) get the ball inside. It's my belief that the Zags will

Amen.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 08:29 AM
Aren't you the one talking about how good the 'Cocks defense is? When shown actual game numbers, they still come in behind the Zags.

Are you going to use rankings or intuition? It has to be one or the other.

The reason most think the Zags will win is twofold. The first is, despite your defense, the Zags rate out higher. The second is offense, The Zags are better there too...even if you only include tournament games.

What part of that is so hard to comprehend?

You have been welcomed here, but none of the Zags are posting on your forum, which is unusual. If you think it's strange that going to an opponents forum, claiming that you are better and are disrespected, then You must be a bit delusional.

At any rate, we'll see on Saturday. Good luck!

I didn't say we were better. I said we are the best defense you will face all year. I think both statistically and with what we've done in the tournament, that is a true statement. However, I have not disrespected your team at all. I have validated your points and agreed with many of you on things you've said.

However, some of you can't possibly even fathom the idea that another team might be better defensively than you just because some guys ranking says so. All year long our defense hasn't gotten the credit it's deserved. All year, Virginia was hyped as a great defense too - then Florida tore them to shreds.

With 10 losses this year and playing in the SEC, our defense has been ignored. Yet we are showing how good we are in the tournament. So instead of just spouting off this #1 defensive ranking, why not show some respect to our defense and leave it open to the possibility that the #2 defense might be better than the #1 defense? It's not a given that you are better just because a ranking said so and it's not a given that you will beat us. It's why we play the games.

Trust us. As a first time Final Four participant, we don't want any disrespect either. Facts and rankings aren't truth. And read my post above this one. Numbers aren't everything you think they are.

TexasZagFan
03-29-2017, 08:30 AM
Here's what I comprehend.

South Carolina has 10 times as many losses as the Zags so far this season.
Saturday night that number will climb to 11 times as many losses as the Zags.

Yeah .... I know that 3 of those double digit losses came when the Gamecocks were without Thornwell.
But I've just rewatched their Duke game .... Duke just didn't (couldn't) get the ball inside. It's my belief that the Zags will

A learned observer might opine you stopped a few too many pucks with your cranium.

But I'm not learned...:lmao:

O/T, Big D scored 3 goals last night. He's on his way to becoming a two-sport star...lol.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 08:33 AM
I think shooting % are better indication then ppg... You can lower ppg just by pacing the game slower.

Agreed. Another good way of looking at it. However, the quality of your opponent and their offense is going to play a role in that as well. Th 281st ranked offense is going to shoot as well as the 17th ranked offense. So shooting percentages are also a reflection of the team you are playing.

MissZag
03-29-2017, 08:35 AM
Jeremy - I think we all understand the point of your posts. We are underestimating your team both offensively and defensively; your team has faced tough teams all year; we play in a week conference; we've faced nothing like your defense; the KenPom stats are likely wrong - leaving anything out?

Getting a condescending and arrogant vibe from you as the posts continue - feel free to stay on your own forum.

LongIslandZagFan
03-29-2017, 08:35 AM
I didn't say we were better. I said we are the best defense you will face all year. I think both statistically and with what we've done in the tournament, that is a true statement. However, I have not disrespected your team at all. I have validated your points and agreed with many of you on things you've said.

However, some of you can't possibly even fathom the idea that another team might be better defensively than you just because some guys ranking says so. All year long our defense hasn't gotten the credit it's deserved. All year, Virginia was hyped as a great defense too - then Florida tore them to shreds.

With 10 losses this year and playing in the SEC, our defense has been ignored. Yet we are showing how good we are in the tournament. So instead of just spouting off this #1 defensive ranking, why not show some respect to our defense and leave it open to the possibility that the #2 defense might be better than the #1 defense? It's not a given that you are better just because a ranking said so and it's not a given that you will beat us. It's why we play the games.

Trust us. As a first time Final Four participant, we don't want any disrespect either. Facts and rankings aren't truth. And read my post above this one. Numbers aren't everything you think they are.


And YOUR numbers aren't all you think they are too. Nobody here is disrespecting your defense... you on the other hand seem to think the Zags just don't play defense at all.

HRZag
03-29-2017, 08:38 AM
Jeremy, thanks for your contributions to this thread. Obviously you are a passionate, knowledgeable and fairly respectful kind of guy. You are welcome here.

I am falling behind, as this thread grows, but just a point about us loosing leads and a comment about our defense.

Xavier, was ranked 12th in the nation before their point guard got hurt for 5 or 6 games.

They averaged 75 points a game for the season. We held them to 20 points in the second half, reaching just 59 points at the horn and extended our lead from 10 to 24 points.

LongIslandZagFan
03-29-2017, 08:38 AM
Jeremy - I think we all understand the point of your posts. We are underestimating your team both offensively and defensively; your team has faced tough teams all year; we play in a week conference; we've faced nothing like your defense; the KenPom stats are likely wrong - leaving anything out?

Getting a condescending and arrogant vibe from you as the posts continue - feel free to stay on your own forum.

This sums it up. Jeremy knows all.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 08:39 AM
All I know is that the "very hot team" that has a player we simply can't stop and our conference doesn't prepare us for the type of guys we'll be seeing sounds real familiar.

The team with fans that told us that all last week limped home with a 24 point loss and a leading scorer who finished the game almost exactly 14 points under that which he'd been averaging. Which, in a lot of people's minds, is a pretty good metric of defense in and of itself.

I suspect that So.Car. wil play us tougher than Xavier, and I am very weary of being over-confident, but given what just happened one game ago, I think there's a right to be confident going into this game.

Though, he does make a point regarding our defense's penchant for giving up leads in the second half. We just have to hope that our last two games (especially Xavier, where we widened our lead) are the new norm in this newly intense environment.

Last thing, the whole dome thing offsetting outside shooting really should favor us since we'll likely be pounding the ball inside to Shem/Zach/JWIII and getting their 2 bigs into foul trouble. My real hope is that both their bigs have 2 fouls by the 10:00 of the first half, forcing a very red-faced Martin to make a pretty tough decision.

We aren't Xavier. We aren't a one dimensional scoring team. And that's the difference between us and Xavier. 4 or 5 guys a game are scoring double figures for us. Plus our defense is about as good as yours is.

Just like you, we've held every team under their scoring average too. I think that's a pretty good metric of our defense too.

But look at this from the other side. You played a really tough defense in West Virginia. NGW had a bad game. Gonzaga held on to win by 3. Why can't we look at that game and think with a defense that is better than West Virginia's we can't do the same?

You know this isn't just one sided for Gonzaga. We made the Final 4 team for a reason. If you want to look at your game against Xavier and make a similar comparison to us, why can't we look at your game against West Virginia and do the same?

team6
03-29-2017, 08:40 AM
Gonzaga % D
South Dakota 31% normally shoots 45%
Northwestern 40.9% normally shoots 43.6%
West Virgina 26.7% normally shoots 45.4%
Xavier 35.5% normally shoots 45.7%

Northwestern is the only game thats close and that's because we just stopped playing D in the second half, that won't happen again. Example the xavier game

SC % D

Marquette 46.3% Normally shoot 48.7%
Duke 41.5% normally shoot 47.5%
Baylor 30.4% normally shoot 47.1%
Florida 41.7% normally shoot 45%

Besides baylor they are all fairly close.

Zags normally shoots 51% and sc normally shoots 42%
I predict zags shoot 48% and sc shoots 32% for the game based off of what I see above.

gozagswoohoo
03-29-2017, 08:44 AM
This is getting exhausting...lol

team6
03-29-2017, 08:45 AM
This is getting exhausting...lol

+1

LongIslandZagFan
03-29-2017, 08:45 AM
It is... a guy comes on... tells everyone that stats are wrong... his guy intuition is right and nothing can prove him wrong. Even he admits on his own board he is basically trolling here.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 08:47 AM
Jeremy - I think we all understand the point of your posts. We are underestimating your team both offensively and defensively; your team has faced tough teams all year; we play in a week conference; we've faced nothing like your defense; the KenPom stats are likely wrong - leaving anything out?

Getting a condescending and arrogant vibe from you as the posts continue - feel free to stay on your own forum.

If you think that, then you haven't read through my posts on here.

You guys have been #1 most of the year. You have a good offense and defense which I have acknowledged (again I will point out that before the tournament started, I picked Gonzaga to be in the championship game - I'm happy to show you my bracket to prove this).

And yes, we have been underestimated in this tournament and all season long. No, we haven't been a top 10 or 20 team but are peaking at the right time. Stats would show you haven't played a defense as good as ours. But also stats can be wrong meaning that as much as you believe in your #1 ranking in defense, those stats might be wrong and another team might be better.

And if you are getting a condescending vibe, then you are way off base. We made the Final 4 for a reason just like you did. You are favored. So was every other team we've played. We've earned this just like you have so we don't like seeing these comments about being beat easily by 20 or more points any more than you've like being disrespected over the last 20 years.

USCJeremyinCali
03-29-2017, 08:49 AM
It is... a guy comes on... tells everyone that stats are wrong... his guy intuition is right and nothing can prove him wrong. Even he admits on his own board he is basically trolling here.

Everything you have stated is completely wrong. I never said I was trolling on here. What I stated was an inside joke to my board. But you don't get that and I understand.

I'm am a huge stat based guy. And everything I've stated on here with my stats is just as correct as your stats. My point is stats can say what you want them to say and stats can be wrong.

Stats won't win you games. Stats said we should be in the Final 4. But you can believe all the stats you want, be wrong, and lose. I am not saying any of that will happen but I do want to understand that your stats and whichever ones you want to believe can be wrong.

team6
03-29-2017, 08:49 AM
If you think that, then you haven't read through my posts on here.

You guys have been #1 most of the year. You have a good offense and defense which I have acknowledged (again I will point out that before the tournament started, I picked Gonzaga to be in the championship game - I'm happy to show you my bracket to prove this).

And yes, we have been underestimated in this tournament and all season long. No, we haven't been a top 10 or 20 team but are peaking at the right time. Stats would show you haven't played a defense as good as ours. But also stats can be wrong meaning that as much as you believe in your #1 ranking in defense, those stats might be wrong and another team might be better.

And if you are getting a condescending vibe, then you are way off base. We made the Final 4 for a reason just like you did. You are favored. So was every other team we've played. We've earned this just like you have so we don't like seeing these comments about being beat easily by 20 or more points any more than you've like being disrespected over the last 20 years.

If we beat you by 20 will you come back and apologize? And admit you were wrong about everything?

sittingon50
03-29-2017, 08:51 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUASznyVWd4

GoZags
03-29-2017, 08:52 AM
If you think that, then you haven't read through my posts on here.

You guys have been #1 most of the year. You have a good offense and defense which I have acknowledged (again I will point out that before the tournament started, I picked Gonzaga to be in the championship game - I'm happy to show you my bracket to prove this).

And yes, we have been underestimated in this tournament and all season long. No, we haven't been a top 10 or 20 team but are peaking at the right time. Stats would show you haven't played a defense as good as ours. But also stats can be wrong meaning that as much as you believe in your #1 ranking in defense, those stats might be wrong and another team might be better.

And if you are getting a condescending vibe, then you are way off base. We made the Final 4 for a reason just like you did. You are favored. So was every other team we've played. We've earned this just like you have so we don't like seeing these comments about being beat easily by 20 or more points any more than you've like being disrespected over the last 20 years.

I've read your posts ....

In this thread .... and in multiple other threads throughout the course of Gonzaga's "cute little run". LIZF pretty much summed it up.

You ARE welcome on this board. Just don't be naive enough to think we haven't seen this act played out before.

CarolinaZagFan
03-29-2017, 08:58 AM
This is getting exhausting...lol

Amen! I'm so glad I moved from SC last year. I thought NC State fans were delusional until I spent 4 years in SC. Have a couple good football seasons and they morphed into Alabama and now that they've had one good run in basketball they're Kentucky. Hopefully the Zags bring them back down to earth Saturday.

Hoopaholic
03-29-2017, 09:21 AM
All I know is that the "very hot team" that has a player we simply can't stop and our conference doesn't prepare us for the type of guys we'll be seeing sounds real familiar.

The team with fans that told us that all last week limped home with a 24 point loss and a leading scorer who finished the game almost exactly 14 points under that which he'd been averaging. Which, in a lot of people's minds, is a pretty good metric of defense in and of itself.

I suspect that So.Car. wil play us tougher than Xavier, and I am very weary of being over-confident, but given what just happened one game ago, I think there's a right to be confident going into this game.

Though, he does make a point regarding our defense's penchant for giving up leads in the second half. We just have to hope that our last two games (especially Xavier, where we widened our lead) are the new norm in this newly intense environment.

Last thing, the whole dome thing offsetting outside shooting really should favor us since we'll likely be pounding the ball inside to Shem/Zach/JWIII and getting their 2 bigs into foul trouble. My real hope is that both their bigs have 2 fouls by the 10:00 of the first half, forcing a very red-faced Martin to make a pretty tough decision.

completely disagree that we cannot stop their stud.........

Hoopaholic
03-29-2017, 09:24 AM
Your numbers about how we've scored in the second half are why the defensive numbers are slightly higher. We are NOT a bad defense. However, when the pace of the game changes and we start running up and down the floor like we did with Duke and Marquette, then points on both sides are higher. That doesn't mean our defense was worse but the pace and style of the game changed. Asked Duke if we were tough on defense. As Coach K said, we were the most physical team he has played all year. We scored 65 in the second half. And yet he was saying that about our defense.

So here's the key thing to remember. We've been able to play great defense and still run up and down the court to score with teams. We've also been able to play a half court games and absolutely shut teams down (Baylor). I thought the Florida game was our worst defensive effort of the tournament yet we still scored 77, held them to 0-14 from 3 pt range, and won.

You can't just look at the numbers and not watch the game. We put up points but we also played great defense. Our FG percentages, amount of TOs, 3 pt FG percentage, etc are all better indicators of how good our defense has been than the number of points we've given up. Number of points just shows we are capable of playing different styles, still playing good defense, and winning.

I have every game SC played on TIVO and have watched most of them live as well as a second time (it is my weakness in life and my wife will tell you I am a ALL IN junkie come February on).....

I am comfortable to say our offense is better than your defense

We run the court better than your team does

We are better balanced

We have a deeper bench

We have the skill sets and abilities to contain and stop your offensive threats

I have yet to see how you will stop BOTH our outside game and at the same time our inside game.....its pick your poison


Physical does not always correlate to good defense IMO

kitzbuel
03-29-2017, 09:26 AM
Things I will guarantee:

Mark Few and his staff have not anything USCJeremyinCali has posted.

They have not read anything any of us regulars have posted either.

They are all now very familiar with S Carolina and are not underestimating them at all.

Same can be said of Martin.

I also think Zags are gonna win.



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