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View Full Version : Question for the basketball minds....Karno and West Virginia



CDC84
03-21-2017, 08:10 AM
This one is directed at Hoopaholic and others who know the game from an X's and O's standpoint.

Seth Davis brought up the point that the big reason why he picked GU to go to the final 4 was because of Karnowski. He felt he was a weapon that nobody could stop. Well, as we saw vs. Northwestern, he didn't play much of the 2nd half. Not only because of potential issues with defensive switching, but also to avoid Hack-A-Shem.

Is there anyway to make him a part of this game vs. the WVU press so that Few and Co. can take advantage of his offensive and passing talents?? Although Zach Collins showed off some amazing one on one post moves, the offense simply flows better with Shem in there due to his passing ability and scoring talents near the hoop. If WVU starts playing Hack-A-JWIII and not guarding him past 10 feet, that's when maybe you bring in Collins and team him with Karno.

I just get the feeling the Zags are not going to win this game unless Karno has some sort of impact. The Zags were very poor on offense (Percentage wise) in SLC, and a large part of it seems to be the lack of impact from Shem.

strikenowhere
03-21-2017, 08:12 AM
This one is directed at Hoopaholic and others who know the game from an X's and O's standpoint.

Seth Davis brought up the point that the big reason why he picked GU to go to the final 4 was because of Karnowski. He felt he was a weapon that nobody could stop. Well, as we saw vs. Northwestern, he didn't play much of the 2nd half. Not only because of potential issues with defensive switching, but also to avoid Hack-A-Shem.

Is there anyway to make him a part of this game vs. the WVU press so that Few and Co. can take advantage of his offensive and passing talents?? Although Zach Collins show off some amazing one on one post moves, the offense simply flows better with Shem in there due to his passing ability and scoring talents near the hoop. If WVU starts playing Hack-A-JWIII and not guarding him past 10 feet, that's when maybe you bring in Collins and team him with Karno.

I just get the feeling the Zags are not going to win this game unless Karno has some sort of impact. The Zags were very poor on offense (Percentage wise) in SLC, and a large part of it seems to be the lack of impact from Shem.

Why not use him as the release valve at half-court? He has soft hands and could handle the passes but wouldn't have to be running up and down the whole court? (btw I am no expert on basketball plays here!)

CDC84
03-21-2017, 08:14 AM
I am sure Few and his colleagues are coming up with something.

GonzagasaurusFlex
03-21-2017, 08:55 AM
I am sure Few and his colleagues are coming up with something.

How to minimize turnovers and maximize Karno's size advantage in the post are two questions coaches have to answer vs WVa. I keep thinking Tillie may prove to be a huge player in this game. He's tall enough to be a release valve vs press and talented enough in the open court to attack the press.

Notre Dame's coach, Mike Brey, summed up another key to this game: their press will give you open shots when you break it, guys gotta take and make these shots. His point was that it's a mistake to just be relieved to get the ball across half court (without a turnover or 10 second call) then try to catch your breath and start running your 1/2 court offense. Gotta make Mountaineers pay for their aggressive press by attacking the basket and taking advantage of numbers before they can set up their halfcourt D.

CDC84
03-21-2017, 08:58 AM
Nathan Adrian, a guy that Karno might likely guard, only shot 29 percent on 3s this year

Hoopaholic
03-21-2017, 09:10 AM
How to minimize turnovers and maximize Karno's size advantage in the post are two questions coaches have to answer vs WVa. I keep thinking Tillie may prove to be a huge player in this game. He's tall enough to be a release valve vs press and talented enough in the open court to attack the press.

Notre Dame's coach, Mike Brey, summed up another key to this game: their press will give you open shots when you break it, guys gotta take and make these shots. His point was that it's a mistake to just be relieved to get the ball across half court (without a turnover or 10 second call) then try to catch your breath and start running your 1/2 court offense. Gotta make Mountaineers pay for their aggressive press by attacking the basket and taking advantage of numbers before they can set up their halfcourt D.

Brey is referring to the old adage against the press.........go slow, decisive in the backcourt, push and attack for good looks in the front court and make the pressing team pay for their decision by getting good easy looks and finishing

Hoopaholic
03-21-2017, 09:14 AM
This one is directed at Hoopaholic and others who know the game from an X's and O's standpoint.

Seth Davis brought up the point that the big reason why he picked GU to go to the final 4 was because of Karnowski. He felt he was a weapon that nobody could stop. Well, as we saw vs. Northwestern, he didn't play much of the 2nd half. Not only because of potential issues with defensive switching, but also to avoid Hack-A-Shem.

Is there anyway to make him a part of this game vs. the WVU press so that Few and Co. can take advantage of his offensive and passing talents?? Although Zach Collins showed off some amazing one on one post moves, the offense simply flows better with Shem in there due to his passing ability and scoring talents near the hoop. If WVU starts playing Hack-A-JWIII and not guarding him past 10 feet, that's when maybe you bring in Collins and team him with Karno.

I just get the feeling the Zags are not going to win this game unless Karno has some sort of impact. The Zags were very poor on offense (Percentage wise) in SLC, and a large part of it seems to be the lack of impact from Shem.

I suspect you will see him roaming block to block and JW3 middle relief valve....what happens is when you shift the press from one side quickly to the other side, that forces the wing defender to rotate all way back (circle to circle when you teach press techniques...so half court circle to foul line circle).....so if you swing the ball to the middle, then to opposite streaking guards you have SHEM posting up at the block....the defender going circle to circle is going to be either a guard or wing....none of which designed to guard 7 foot center.....guard can continue down sideline and look for post block....which then frees up Williams from the middle to streak straight down and if they try to double Shem you have a dunk coming

jim77
03-21-2017, 09:14 AM
The bigger question should be for WVU...once we break their press can they deal with our half court offense? I don't think they can. I also think we can break the press with Karno. Our 3 guards with Jw3 should be fine...in fact..I d use Karno to "scrub" off defenders. Do I think the Mountaineers will be successful...I think they will partially but they will pay for it in fouls and then that's when Gu' s depth kicks In.

U Zig, I Zag
03-21-2017, 09:17 AM
Karno was sick and was gassed a lot of the time. He looked tired. I hope he has a bit more mojo this week. Also, pass in, shoulder move/ball fake, then either go right up or kick it back out. Make WV move and defend.

The press will actually allow PK to get settled in on offense (unless we figure out a way to break through it over and over, in that case, he is REALLY gonna need to move his wheels).

CDC84
03-21-2017, 09:27 AM
Keep in mind that West VA plays a ton of players, so they can absorb fouls and keep guys rested.

sittingon50
03-21-2017, 09:44 AM
They use Adrian (their biggest starter @ 6'9") as one of the frontmen on the press. Zags get the ball down quickly & should have even more of an advantage near the rim.

scrooner
03-21-2017, 10:01 AM
Karno was sick...

He was? I don't recall seeing that mentioned.

Ezag
03-21-2017, 10:05 AM
He was? I don't recall seeing that mentioned.

Yea me neither.

U Zig, I Zag
03-21-2017, 10:08 AM
I understood he had a chest cold or head cold going into the weekend. Mentioned here. You could hear it in the interviews leading up to the first weekend. Perhaps not a deal breaker for him, but to me he seemed a bit lethargic.

Markburn1
03-21-2017, 10:15 AM
Zags biggest key will be spacing against the press. If they stay focused and recognize the open spots on the floor, don't converge on the ball it will make it harder for the opponent to trap. Breaking the press is a five man operation. Do not be surprised if Few finds a way to throw over the top of the press to the big men in the wing areas on the offensive end. Few will coach the guards to limit their dribble and find the open men who will constantly be moving and finding open floor without crowding each other. The advantage the Zags have is twofold. Their big guys, especially Karnowski, Tillie and Collins have soft hands and are smart enough and mobile enough to find the open spots. Combine that with the Zags big guards that will be able to see over the top to find those guys and there is a good chance that turnovers will be manageable. The cautionary tale is the Zags have a couple guys that are extremely confident in their ball handling skills and might try to do too much on their own. If they can get their instincts under control and take their time, they could win relatively comfortably.

A few threes would help immensely, by the way.

CDC84
03-21-2017, 10:24 AM
Another concern: how do the refs call the game. Do they allow contact, or do they call it? Most pressing teams are highly physical. They also can whine after almost every foul call while they are pressing. See the SMC/VCU game. It got to be so bad that I thought the officials should've talked with the VCU coach about it. Even if its just a non-verbal expression of frustration, it doesn't belong on the court every single time a foul is called.

liwvu13
03-21-2017, 10:28 AM
Teams that have had success against our press used bigs to bring the ball up the court. Texas Tech who we went to OT with twice (won1, lost1), used this method. Same thing with Iowa St. in the B12 final. We dominated them in the first 2 games but in the finals they started using Burton to bring the ball up the floor. It helps to pull our guards off the ball which are our best defenders in the press. Most teams don't have bigs that can handle bringing the ball up the court with some pressure, but if you do, thats where Few will look first.

MickMick
03-21-2017, 10:29 AM
To me, the single biggest issue will be inbounding the ball after a made basket.

It is the five second countdown which may cause a panicked inbound pass to a player in the corner who will be immediately pounced upon. I am much less concerned with advancing past half court because the height advantage creates bigger targets.

CdAZagFan
03-21-2017, 10:30 AM
The bigger question should be for WVU...once we break their press can they deal with our half court offense? I don't think they can.

This.... I'm thinking Karno will have a big game just because of this. Once the press gets broken, we have the advantage. The big man will "rebound" from last game...

tinfoilzag
03-21-2017, 10:31 AM
You keep hearing "WV speeds people up" but in our case, we get into the front court as fast as any teams in Div I. It's part of our game plan w/ "one-man-fast-break" NWG. That way you have to defend our half court for almost the entire shot clock. We can't be sped up much more without bringing Meech back.

The back court press allows Karno to set up deep under the basket where you aren't going to move him. If we break the press constantly, Karno could have a field day.

MickMick
03-21-2017, 10:35 AM
Demetri Goodsen used to single handidly break Rex Walter's press. I honestly wish we had him for this game.

maynard g krebs
03-21-2017, 10:50 AM
Another concern: how do the refs call the game. Do they allow contact, or do they call it? Most pressing teams are highly physical. They also can whine after almost every foul call while they are pressing. See the SMC/VCU game. It got to be so bad that I thought the officials should've talked with the VCU coach .

I posted in another thread Sunday or yesterday that this will likely be the determining factor in the game. I think the Zags are too big and too skilled to lose this one, barring a cold shooting night paired with a hot one from WVU. That's assuming enough of the bumps and hacks are called, and the Zags don't tighten up at the foul line.

Goshzagit
03-21-2017, 10:51 AM
The bigger question should be for WVU...once we break their press can they deal with our half court offense? I don't think they can. I also think we can break the press with Karno. Our 3 guards with Jw3 should be fine...in fact..I d use Karno to "scrub" off defenders. Do I think the Mountaineers will be successful...I think they will partially but they will pay for it in fouls and then that's when Gu' s depth kicks In.

I agree with this, unless we panic and "rush" our shots once we break their press and become half-court offense.

Do we get anxious about finding/seeking the open shot, or grind them a bit, even getting a better shot.

I LOVED seeing our guys finding J3 and Collins roaming around the rim in transition.

Why not?

I'd like to see our bigs run the floor and get position early. Our guards should be capable of breaking that press, use Collins or J3 to be a safety net and help screen.

As said, Silas will need to bring a A-game. He can single handidly break/split a press.

He did vs Florida and Tennessee several times.

Melson is better vs pressure defense than Perkins is.

CDC84
03-21-2017, 11:18 AM
TSSF's take:

http://www.slipperstillfits.com/2017/3/21/14991112/2017-ncaa-tournament-gonzaga-west-virginia-press-gameplan

bballbeachbum
03-21-2017, 11:51 AM
TSSF's take:

http://www.slipperstillfits.com/2017/3/21/14991112/2017-ncaa-tournament-gonzaga-west-virginia-press-gameplan

good read and looks like a conglomeration of what we've been saying here.

on WVU, they went hard after the first trap in games I've seen but ISU was successful at splitting the trap often. then once beaten with the first pass, WVU didn't keep trying to press and were in scramble mode, and gave up lots of great looks at the basket. and like we've been saying, Zags can play over the top with the players we have, pressing teams hate that

can't turn it over when you get hacked since getting hacked is inevitable, and got to make them pay at the FT line for fouling

MDABE80
03-21-2017, 01:43 PM
The offense should begin in the backcourt. I'd consider putting Shem in the backcourt as a reliable guy to get the ball and then distribute it one or two times to the guys who run the offense. Let them foul him. And let them accumulate fouls on themselves. CDC's correct. Huggins uses 11 kids to keep everyone capable of a fever pitched approach. Coaching is key. Few has to be able to get the kids to adapt. Having Shem available to throw the ball to makes sense. He is much better catching and distributing. His foul shooting is better though not great. We set the tempo and don't be rushed into taking stupid, low liklihood shots. Offense should not be a half court. It should be a full court offense. Not hard to design that. Forced, scared or panicked is no way to win a game. You lose doing that.
WVU will cause some turns.it's inevitable. Under 10% is a lot better than 1 in 4.

Martin Centre Mad Man
03-21-2017, 02:57 PM
Karnowski is smart and patient. He eats up a lot of space wherever he plays. He makes himself a big target and he has great hands. If they double him at midcourt, he'll pass to the open guy. If some shorter player tries to guard him one on one, he will use his length and girth to give himself room to pass. If they front him at midcourt, he'll take off toward the rim like a slow rolling freight train and wait for the high lob. He will get at least one breakaway dunk in this game. West Virginia can't practice guarding a player like him.

krii
03-22-2017, 03:07 AM
I checked Karnowski's free throw shooting percentages from this year a couple of days ago to make sure I am right with that one:

It's not that smart to go for a 'hack-a-Shem' tactics in the tournament. Check the link below - whenever Shem had to shoot more than more than 4 FT a game his FT% are up to .64, and whenever he has over 8 FTA his FT& are up to .69. Statistically we could predict his shooting percentages to be at least on the level of his averages (ca .600) but this data shows that he could easily shoot between .64 and .66% in games with more FTs. That's more than enough to be a threat from FT with his size (most of his FT will go as an effect of 2+1).

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/przemek-karnowski-1/gamelog/2017#gamelog::19

Besides, do not undervalue Karnowski because of his average-to-poor play in the first week. He was coughing on the bench and he was visible slower (=cold). Those couple of days should help him retain his old form. I bet he'll be a focal point of Zags offense and defense this weekend :-)

Go Zags!

TexasZagFan
03-22-2017, 05:00 AM
I checked Karnowski's free throw shooting percentages from this year a couple of days ago to make sure I am right with that one:

It's not that smart to go for a 'hack-a-Shem' tactics in the tournament. Check the link below - whenever Shem had to shoot more than more than 4 FT a game his FT% are up to .64, and whenever he has over 8 FTA his FT& are up to .69. Statistically we could predict his shooting percentages to be at least on the level of his averages (ca .600) but this data shows that he could easily shoot between .64 and .66% in games with more FTs. That's more than enough to be a threat from FT with his size (most of his FT will go as an effect of 2+1).

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/przemek-karnowski-1/gamelog/2017#gamelog::19

Besides, do not undervalue Karnowski because of his average-to-poor play in the first week. He was coughing on the bench and he was visible slower (=cold). Those couple of days should help him retain his old form. I bet he'll be a focal point of Zags offense and defense this weekend :-)

Go Zags!

Great post! I also think Shem will benefit greatly from being at sea level.

ETA: O/T, so what do we do about J3's FT woes?

krii
03-22-2017, 06:23 AM
Great post! I also think Shem will benefit greatly from being at sea level.

ETA: O/T, so what do we do about J3's FT woes?

His FT% are also up with more FTs but not as much. With 4+ FTA/game J3 goes to .604. Unfortunately with 6+ FTA he goes back to his averages. This means that he is, supposedly, going to remain his .570-ish shooting. HOWEVER, funny thing - whenever J3 shoots AND hits at least one 3PA, his FT% are waaay higher. He had 6 games when he hit both 3PA and FTA, only in one of them he had FT% at .500 level - the rest were much higher. In those 6 games he was .81 from 3s and .86 from FT line (whenever attempted and hit both FT & 3s).

Solution? Let him shoot 3s and pray he will hit them, it seems that when he is confident he is able to do miracles with his FT shooting :-)

TexasZagFan
03-22-2017, 06:44 AM
His FT% are also up with more FTs but not as much. With 4+ FTA/game J3 goes to .604. Unfortunately with 6+ FTA he goes back to his averages. This means that he is, supposedly, going to remain his .570-ish shooting. HOWEVER, funny thing - whenever J3 shoots AND hits at least one 3PA, his FT% are waaay higher. He had 6 games when he hit both 3PA and FTA, only in one of them he had FT% at .500 level - the rest were much higher. In those 6 games he was .81 from 3s and .86 from FT line (whenever attempted and hit both FT & 3s).

Solution? Let him shoot 3s and pray he will hit them, it seems that when he is confident he is able to do miracles with his FT shooting :-)

I can't recall J3 hitting a 3 pointer since January, when he was 60%+ from beyond the arc, albeit on a very small sample. We need him to take it to the hoop...brings out his aggressiveness.

GUinSTL
03-22-2017, 06:49 AM
One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is that WVU's strength only comes into play if they can execute well enough offensively overcome the one of the best defenses in the nation. I don't see it happening. No score = no press. No press = no havoc. And lots of possessions for the Zags to score on in the half-court scenario.
This game could get out of hand... in Gonzaga's favor.

Go Zags!
~B

MileHigh
03-22-2017, 07:05 AM
The x's and o's to beating a zone press are not complicated, I am sure every coach that played against WV this year had a solid strategy for breaking the press and repped it repeatedly at practice. The problem is, in the words of Mike Tyson, "everyone has a plan until they get hit in the mouth". Once they throw that pressure on you in real time, it is wayyyyy different then practice and the execution will suffer. Kids will panic, try to dribble through pressure, or throw risky passes.
Key for Zags is to understand they will turn it over on occasion, but to stick to the gameplan and also you have to make them pay on the other end with easy buckets. Press is risk-reward, and if you arnt aggresive after breaking it you are taking the risk element out of it for WV