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Ekrub
02-25-2017, 08:54 PM
An undefeated team without a F4 would have been a failure. Still have the F4 out there to break ground no other GU team has. Our FTS aren't going to get better from Williams and Karnowski. It's a liability, but not a back breaker. Perkins needs to stop thinking he is Kyrie, and play solid ball. Everyone else is still solid, and we still have the best chance we have ever had at making the F4, as a 1 or 2 seed. Go zags.

TexasZag
02-25-2017, 09:47 PM
An undefeated team without a F4 would have been a failure. Still have the F4 out there to break ground no other GU team has. Our FTS aren't going to get better from Williams and Karnowski. It's a liability, but not a back breaker. Perkins needs to stop thinking he is Kyrie, and play solid ball. Everyone else is still solid, and we still have the best chance we have ever had at making the F4, as a 1 or 2 seed. Go zags.

Speaking of tournament, on the off chance that BYU catches fire and gets the auto bid, are we now a 3-team conference? If not, who gets hosed?

Ekrub
02-25-2017, 09:49 PM
If we get byu in the finals, I'm putting big money on the zags. Zags players all asked if they would like to see them in vegas, without hesitation, all said yes.

zagsfanforlife
02-25-2017, 09:52 PM
If we get byu in the finals, I'm putting big money on the zags. Zags players all asked if they would like to see them in vegas, without hesitation, all said yes.

Ya but zags would be 13 pt favorites. Still putting heavy money on the Zags?

Ekrub
02-25-2017, 10:23 PM
Ya but zags would be 13 pt favorites. Still putting heavy money on the Zags?

Moneyline

zagsfanforlife
02-25-2017, 10:31 PM
Moneyline

So youll win 100 bucks for every 600 or 700 you put on them. bleh

CDC84
02-25-2017, 11:23 PM
I don't know.....there are far fewer teams that go unbeaten during the regular season/conference tourney than who make the final four. I will remember the Wichita State team that went unbeaten a few years ago going into March Madness far more than some team that made the 1994 final four. An unbeaten record going into March Madness is something that can never be taken away, and it can make a March Madness loss easier to take. I actually feel far worse right now than I have after most losses that GU has experienced in the NCAA tourney. I really, really wanted the unbeaten record going to March Madness. It feels to me like the season is over, even though I know it isn't.

seacatfan
02-25-2017, 11:30 PM
I think the exact opposite CDC. Getting to a Final 4 is huge. Going undefeated during the regular season and then not making a deep run in the Tourney relegates you to being a footnote in history, or even worse infamous. "Yeah, they were undefeated, but they didn't even make the Final 4." Almost like it makes it illegitimate. If I had to choose one or the other, I'd take a Final 4 appearance over an undefeated regular season and not making the last weekend of the Tourney 100 times out of 100.

Which season do you think Wichita St. cherishes more--the Final 4 or the undefeated season that ended in the 2nd round of the Tourney?

MDABE80
02-26-2017, 12:41 AM
What matters is that we prove this loss was on the "fluke" I think it is. If the Zags crush them in the WCC tournament, redemption is in play. My God this is only one loss where everything fell apart tonight. I'm very concerned about the FT's and 3 pt shooting. More so though, the defense is the one thing we can always depend on. If we restore the defense and beat SMC and/or BYU, there will be no worries. This goofy loss will be forgotten come seeding time.

DixieZag
02-26-2017, 01:24 AM
I don't know.....there are far fewer teams that go unbeaten during the regular season/conference tourney than who make the final four. I will remember the Wichita State team that went unbeaten a few years ago going into March Madness far more than some team that made the 1994 final four. An unbeaten record going into March Madness is something that can never be taken away, and it can make a March Madness loss easier to take. I actually feel far worse right now than I have after most losses that GU has experienced in the NCAA tourney. I really, really wanted the unbeaten record going to March Madness. It feels to me like the season is over, even though I know it isn't.

Always look forward to your posts CDC, but gotta agree with Seacat on this one. Do we look back on Wichita State's undefeated season as "special" - at least upon first impression of the whole? I sure don't.

I really wanted the unbeaten thing for the kids b/c it would be a novelty that could never be taken away, plus it would've meant we didn't actually lose to BYU on senior night - which is getting tired, quite frankly. Crap team. Capable of playing top 20 ball, but so immature and poorly coached they get 114 hung on them at home by Utah Valley and lose to the team we beat by 56.

Going forward, I worry a ton about how tight we looked, perhaps the tightness was senior night/perfect season pressure that won't appear in the tournament. I feel like BYU played us at least as tough in Provo, in hostile territory, and we answered the bell for the fight (same as SMC) so I hope the tight "play not to lose" character was due to these circumstances, but in the NCAAs we revert to the gumption we showed @BYU and SMC.

If we go to the FF or (gulp) the final, this will be 100% forgotten in my mind.

jazzdelmar
02-26-2017, 04:13 AM
Its not THAT they lost, its HOW they lost. Blowing a 16 pt lead and looking scared the last 5 minutes. All of us vets here know thats the NCAA look....that's what scary, not the end of the unbeaten season. If BYU shot lights out and nipped us at the end, who cares. No, the scenario was all too familiar. And several players were undressed a bit. No names. Let's just say Willams played well......

WallaWallaZag
02-26-2017, 05:19 AM
Its not THAT they lost, its HOW they lost. Blowing a 16 pt lead and looking scared the last 5 minutes. All of us vets here know thats the NCAA look....that's what scary, not the end of the unbeaten season. If BYU shot lights out and nipped us at the end, who cares. No, the scenario was all too familiar. And several players were undressed a bit. No names. Let's just say Willams played well......

true...but they ran a play for him at the end and he didn't come through either...and his poor free throw shooting isn't helping

TexasZag
02-26-2017, 05:39 AM
Its not THAT they lost, its HOW they lost. Blowing a 16 pt lead and looking scared the last 5 minutes. All of us vets here know thats the NCAA look....that's what scary, not the end of the unbeaten season. If BYU shot lights out and nipped us at the end, who cares. No, the scenario was all too familiar. And several players were undressed a bit. No names. Let's just say Willams played well......

This is actually a pretty convincing sign of stress. When under stress the mind tends to block the intellect, instead relying primarily on instinct (muscle memory, habit, whatever you choose to call it). In other words, you tend to function without thinking. You revert to old behaviors and habits, because those are the behaviors that still deeply ingrained. You see it all of the time--the alcoholic falls off the wagon, the quarterback makes a stupid read and throws a pick during a pivotable drive, etc. And different people have different levels of tolerance to stress and have their own tripping points (late turnovers, possibly?). As much as we would like to think that they're immune to such stress, this is simply not true (and in the end we wind up putting additional pressure on them with the nearly impossible expectations we placed on them by believing so). The hope is that with the #1 ranking and undefeated season now in the rear view mirror they can get back to focusing on the mission at hand. I'd have preferred that this didn't happen so late in the season, or to BYU (I am no expert, but I believe they are the only WCC team so far that has been able to recruit the kinds of athletes that can give GU fits). It might get interesting if we should see them again in the WCC tournament.

Zags11
02-26-2017, 05:45 AM
Its not THAT they lost, its HOW they lost. Blowing a 16 pt lead and looking scared the last 5 minutes. All of us vets here know thats the NCAA look....that's what scary, not the end of the unbeaten season. If BYU shot lights out and nipped us at the end, who cares. No, the scenario was all too familiar. And several players were undressed a bit. No names. Let's just say Willams played well......

This.

Ezag
02-26-2017, 05:53 AM
Its not THAT they lost, its HOW they lost. Blowing a 16 pt lead and looking scared the last 5 minutes. All of us vets here know thats the NCAA look....that's what scary, not the end of the unbeaten season. If BYU shot lights out and nipped us at the end, who cares. No, the scenario was all too familiar. And several players were undressed a bit. No names. Let's just say Willams played well......

Yes, this and stress of shooting 55% free throws. That = loss to a good team in the tourney.

tummydoc
02-26-2017, 06:32 AM
Texaszag, agree stress affected our final 6 minutes to Byu's credit. But under stress we overthink, intellect isn't blocked but rather gets in the way. Instead of stepping up to the line relaxed and letting muscle memory take over, we think about our stroke, about the importance of this shot......and many choke in the moment. Rare dudes thrive in that spotlight. Amo was one, I think Nigel is similar. I think the next most capable on the current squad is Silas. I was a huge critic his freshmen year when his confidence was greater than ability. But I think he's kept that confidence as he's become a smarter player. I'd like to see us use him in clutch situations. Don't know if you'd swap him for Perk or Matthews, but both have been absent when most needed

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zagcheer78
02-26-2017, 08:29 AM
Texaszag, agree stress affected our final 6 minutes to Byu's credit. But under stress we overthink, intellect isn't blocked but rather gets in the way. Instead of stepping up to the line relaxed and letting muscle memory take over, we think about our stroke, about the importance of this shot......and many choke in the moment. Rare dudes thrive in that spotlight. Amo was one, I think Nigel is similar. I think the next most capable on the current squad is Silas. I was a huge critic his freshmen year when his confidence was greater than ability. But I think he's kept that confidence as he's become a smarter player. I'd like to see us use him in clutch situations. Don't know if you'd swap him for Perk or Matthews, but both have been absent when most needed

Sent from my KFOT using Tapatalk

I have a question. When we were up 16 points why did our team seem to shut down? I really don't get it.

Zagceo
02-26-2017, 08:38 AM
Its not THAT they lost, its HOW they lost. Blowing a 16 pt lead and looking scared the last 5 minutes. All of us vets here know thats the NCAA look....that's what scary, not the end of the unbeaten season. If BYU shot lights out and nipped us at the end, who cares. No, the scenario was all too familiar. And several players were undressed a bit. No names. Let's just say Willams played well......

Yep

remember Bill Self and his attitude in Kansas comeback against West Virginia....just once in a tense moment I'd like to see our team relax instead of seeing the light in the tunnel is a train coming at em look.

Hoopaholic
02-26-2017, 08:44 AM
I have a question. When we were up 16 points why did our team seem to shut down? I really don't get it.

They didn't..they answered byu runs up until and between the 12 to 8 minute mark second half where we failed to increase our lead and we failed to answer their run and to me this was the point of game we lost momentum and never got it back...IMO the two cheap and one was flat out false call on Shem at 17:38 and 17:11 mark put three on Shem and he played tentative after that point

13:29 go in SECOND half we had a twelve point lead

12:13 mark we are ahead 58-50

Silas misses 3 point shot. Emery hits 3 point shot
Goss misses jumper. Emery hits 3 point shot
Goss misses jumper. Misses jumper
Collins misses dunk. Mika misses jumper
Perkins misses 3 point shot. Mika made jumper
Collins misses 2 free throws

zagcheer78
02-26-2017, 08:57 AM
Thanks for the answer. When you break it down the way you did it makes it clear.

gonzagafan62
02-26-2017, 09:47 AM
They didn't..they answered byu runs up until and between the 12 to 8 minute mark second half where we failed to increase our lead and we failed to answer their run and to me this was the point of game we lost momentum and never got it back...IMO the two cheap and one was flat out false call on Shem at 17:38 and 17:11 mark put three on Shem and he played tentative after that point

13:29 go in SECOND half we had a twelve point lead

12:13 mark we are ahead 58-50

Silas misses 3 point shot. Emery hits 3 point shot
Goss misses jumper. Emery hits 3 point shot
Goss misses jumper. Misses jumper
Collins misses dunk. Mika misses jumper
Perkins misses 3 point shot. Mika made jumper
Collins misses 2 free throws

Bearer of truth

Zagceo
02-26-2017, 09:49 AM
How many believe the Technical backfired?

jazzdelmar
02-26-2017, 09:52 AM
How many believe the Technical backfired?

Big time...........I think they said the Coogs went on a 14-5 run.....

ProVeeZag
02-26-2017, 10:09 AM
Speaking of tournament, on the off chance that BYU catches fire and gets the auto bid, are we now a 3-team conference? If not, who gets hosed?

Really interesting scenario to consider ... BYU right now is not the team they were even 2 weeks ago. They have multiple offensive weapons that have had big nights scoring recently (witness Bryant vs Portland just 3 days ago, Haws, Mika). All these guys are capable of 30-pt nights.

The WCC tourney is going to be an absolute brawl in Vegas this year. Last night's loss proves Zags are no longer invincible, there's blood in the water now ... and that will enbolden both BYU and St Mary's. Gut check time for Zags ... they are the superior team in terms of talent, but they have got to bounce back after a "pedestrian effort" against BYU. BYU has already "caught fire", but there's a lot of ball left for them to get to WCC finals. To your point: Were they to get the auto bid, I think the WCC gets 3 teams into tournament.

gonzagafan62
02-26-2017, 10:14 AM
So let's see....

Gonzaga now officially only has to play ONE of BYU or SMC.

It's going to be Gonzaga vs one of those teams in sure..... BYU hit all 15 lucky shots (they all went in) if BYU is lucky enough to get past SMC they'll be dead in the water like every other time in WCC tournament.... They hit all those lucky shots, got all the bounces all the calls AND STILL STILL Gonzaga had a chance to win at the end. Not happening again.

MontanaCoyote
02-26-2017, 11:35 AM
It's a new day, a new beginning now. The tourney is a golden opportunity. Really a clean slate. I believed in yesterday until last night. Now got to believe in tomorrow. Back the boys! Lift 'um up. They need to forget yesterday and get on to tomorrow. Off the canvass boy's, you can do it! It's just the first round!

TexasZag
02-26-2017, 11:54 AM
Texaszag, agree stress affected our final 6 minutes to Byu's credit. But under stress we overthink, intellect isn't blocked but rather gets in the way. Instead of stepping up to the line relaxed and letting muscle memory take over, we think about our stroke, about the importance of this shot......and many choke in the moment. Rare dudes thrive in that spotlight. Amo was one, I think Nigel is similar. I think the next most capable on the current squad is Silas. I was a huge critic his freshmen year when his confidence was greater than ability. But I think he's kept that confidence as he's become a smarter player. I'd like to see us use him in clutch situations. Don't know if you'd swap him for Perk or Matthews, but both have been absent when most needed

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I hear you, but the science says otherwise. It's how we are wired. Preparation (practice, years of repetition, etc.) is one thing that helps separate those who don't produce under stress and those who do (notice I said 'helps').

From http://www.tm.org/blog/people/reduce-stress/:

What does stress do to the brain?
Dr. Stixrud:
One important thing is that stress changes the balance of neurotransmitters in the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain right behind your forehead that is responsible for thinking clearly and carrying out purposeful, goal-directed behavior. This change makes it very difficult to pay attention, to organize your thinking, to remember what you need to remember, and to flexibly adapt to life’s demands. As Dr. Daniel Goleman has said, “Stress makes us stupid”—because stress shuts down the thinking part of the brain so that we can respond to threat instinctively and reflexively. Students who are highly stressed thus try to learn and produce schoolwork with brains that work at a very low level of efficiency.

And here's more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/11/28/the-science-of-stage-fright-how-stress-causes-brain-freeze/

MontanaCoyote
02-26-2017, 12:23 PM
I hear you, but the science says otherwise. It's how we are wired. Preparation (practice, years of repetition, etc.) is one thing that helps separate those who don't produce under stress and those who do (notice I said 'helps').

From http://www.tm.org/blog/people/reduce-stress/:

What does stress do to the brain?
Dr. Stixrud:
One important thing is that stress changes the balance of neurotransmitters in the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain right behind your forehead that is responsible for thinking clearly and carrying out purposeful, goal-directed behavior. This change makes it very difficult to pay attention, to organize your thinking, to remember what you need to remember, and to flexibly adapt to life’s demands. As Dr. Daniel Goleman has said, “Stress makes us stupid”—because stress shuts down the thinking part of the brain so that we can respond to threat instinctively and reflexively. Students who are highly stressed thus try to learn and produce schoolwork with brains that work at a very low level of efficiency.

And here's more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/11/28/the-science-of-stage-fright-how-stress-causes-brain-freeze/

How about external influences? I always played under stress, mostly because I knew that if I didn't perform up to my dad's expectations I was going to hear about it all the way home. "Yeah, you went 2 for 3, but........" Never fully escaped from that. I doubt this has relevancy in this discussion, just wondering about what kind of impact criticism might have on stress/confidence. Was I wired wrong, or did I short circuit?

TexasZag
02-26-2017, 12:35 PM
How about external influences? I always played under stress, mostly because I knew that if I didn't perform up to my dad's expectations I was going to hear about it all the way home. "Yeah, you went 2 for 3, but........" Never fully escaped from that. I doubt this has relevancy in this discussion, just wondering about what kind of impact criticism might have on stress/confidence. Was I wired wrong, or did I short circuit?

There are varying degrees of stress and everyone has their own threshhold, I believe. And it sounds like your stress was really your 'normal' and you had been conditioned over time to operate under that stress. Maybe it would have been more stressful for you had your dad interrupted his routine and all of the sudden he quit ragging on you about your performance. I'm not in a position to know, so take this for what it's worth. My whole point was to intruduce the idea that the stress of the circumstances could very well have been a factor in the outcome and maybe it wasn't really so much the failings of Coach Few, as some have insisted. I also believe that the more we know about and respect the effects of stress, the better prepared we can be to perform in spite of it.

MontanaCoyote
02-26-2017, 01:52 PM
There are varying degrees of stress and everyone has their own threshhold, I believe. And it sounds like your stress was really your 'normal' and you had been conditioned over time to operate under that stress. Maybe it would have been more stressful for you had your dad interrupted his routine and all of the sudden he quit ragging on you about your performance. I'm not in a position to know, so take this for what it's worth. My whole point was to intruduce the idea that the stress of the circumstances could very well have been a factor in the outcome and maybe it wasn't really so much the failings of Coach Few, as some have insisted. I also believe that the more we know about and respect the effects of stress, the better prepared we can be to perform in spite of it.

Thanks. Conditioned over time. I think that's it. Stressed out over the fear of failure.

ProVeeZag
02-26-2017, 09:29 PM
There are varying degrees of stress and everyone has their own threshhold, I believe. And it sounds like your stress was really your 'normal' and you had been conditioned over time to operate under that stress. Maybe it would have been more stressful for you had your dad interrupted his routine and all of the sudden he quit ragging on you about your performance. I'm not in a position to know, so take this for what it's worth. My whole point was to intruduce the idea that the stress of the circumstances could very well have been a factor in the outcome and maybe it wasn't really so much the failings of Coach Few, as some have insisted. I also believe that the more we know about and respect the effects of stress, the better prepared we can be to perform in spite of it.

Few isn't immune to stress either, though after this many years, I doubt he would allow it to get out-of-hand. Still...

Zagceo
02-26-2017, 10:03 PM
Coach Mark Few was asked Sunday during a CBS interview if he would prefer being a No. 1 seed outside the West Region or the second seed in the West. Few mentioned Gonzaga has a solid fan base in California but “it’s going to be a tough battle whether you’re a 1 or 2. I’d say coin flip on that.”

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/feb/26/loss-stings-but-gonzagas-goals-remain-the-same/