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View Full Version : Olynyk says 2017 team can't guard the 2013 team.



gonzagafan62
02-18-2017, 08:11 PM
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/feb/18/former-zags-olynyk-dower-pick-2013-team-over-curre/

What say you? I know there's some coaches out there.... let's have your analysis.... I personally think he's crazy

ZagaZags
02-18-2017, 08:19 PM
I'm 100% sure this team will beat the 8-9 seed in the second round.

FuManShoes
02-18-2017, 08:31 PM
I'm 100% sure this team will beat the 8-9 seed in the second round.

Except history would show Witchita St was vastly underseeded/ playing at an elite level not befitting a 9 seed, while the Zags suffered a key injury to Bell and gave up/got tagged by 14 threes. things happen no matter how good a team you are. I do think this team is superior to the 13 squad and would win the majority of games played between the two squads.

RenoZag
02-18-2017, 08:32 PM
I'm 100% sure this team will beat the 8-9 seed in the second round.

:000tens:


Also pretty sure this year's team could in-bound the ball at Hinkle

spike_jr
02-18-2017, 08:33 PM
'13 could always bring Karnowski off the bench to guard the '17 Karnowski.

I think this years team plays a little better D and D tends to show up every game. J3 could keep up with Harris. KO would probably get the better of PK but, IMHO, 17 has a pretty significant advantage of NWG, Perkins, and Melson over Pangos, Bell, and Stockton. Dower off the bench was instant O, but the quality of depth for 17 would probably be the difference. Although Hart and Mathews play different roles, I think what they do for their team would in effect, cancel each other out. I would take 17 in 6 or 7 out of 10, but it would be great to watch!

gonzagafan62
02-18-2017, 08:41 PM
:000tens:


Also pretty sure this year's team could in-bound the ball at Hinkle

Yup

raise the zag
02-18-2017, 08:50 PM
'13 frontcourt was tough and skilled. Probably better offensive unit up front, which was good enough to beat any team that year, save Wichita St and their 14 3's.

that said, '17 backcourt would overwhelm '13 defensively. Pangos & GBJ & Stockton would be hard pressed to get a shot off, and no chance at dribble driving vs these rim protecting bigs of J3, Collins, & Tillie. Or Karno's arms in the air.

The thing about '17 is we can block shots at the rim from both positions, and when the offense isn't clicking can drive to the hoop to draw fouls or score.

'13 had a hard time in that department, and was our downfall vs Duke in '15.

TexasZagFan
02-18-2017, 09:02 PM
I loved Sam, but Zach is overall a better player. He's got moves down in the paint that Sam never had.

jpn17
02-18-2017, 09:38 PM
'13 could always bring Karnowski off the bench to guard the '17 Karnowski.

I think this years team plays a little better D and D tends to show up every game. J3 could keep up with Harris. KO would probably get the better of PK but, IMHO, 17 has a pretty significant advantage of NWG, Perkins, and Melson over Pangos, Bell, and Stockton. Dower off the bench was instant O, but the quality of depth for 17 would probably be the difference. Although Hart and Mathews play different roles, I think what they do for their team would in effect, cancel each other out. I would take 17 in 6 or 7 out of 10, but it would be great to watch!

17 Karnowski would school 13 Karnowski IMO. He is so much better now on both ends of the floor. It's been a lot of fun watching him improve over the years.

CDC84
02-18-2017, 09:42 PM
There's no question that the top 8 players on this year's team are better than the top 8 players on the 2013 team.

As for this team being able to defend the 2013 team....remember that Mike Hart made the 2013 team a 4 on 5 team. It's just that Olynyk was the hardest matchup in college basketball that year.

I love Kevin, but I would take Nigel over him in second. Just as good of a PG, but bigger and better defensively.

I don't know....it's an interesting debate.

I think this year's team is better equipped to survive an opening weekend upset because it's a dominant defensive team. They can shoot 44% in a game and survive.

ZagOD7540
02-18-2017, 09:43 PM
Williams-Goss would eat Stockton alive and Collins, Williams and Tillie would destroy Dower. Not sure if Stockton or Dower would be able to get a shot off

MDABE80
02-18-2017, 09:52 PM
Things look better in the riew view. 2017 team would take care of the 2013 team in two seconds. 4 guards who score where we only had one with Pangos. I mean Gary was ok but not in the league of these kids.
Bigs? Not close. Not even with Kelly. Interesting thought though. We'll be thinking about the idea for years to come. Kelly's D was nothing special and he couldn't leap much. Scored well though. Sam? Slow but scored. The present team's defense is ranked no 1 in the country as of tonight.
Put Karno in from of Kelly and put either Collins or W3 in from of Sam and it'd be a long night for the 2013 group.

Zags11
02-18-2017, 10:24 PM
This team beats 2013.

zagsfanforlife
02-18-2017, 10:25 PM
Sorry Kelly, cant really talk trash when you got bounced in the second round. I highly doubt this team loses in round 2.

Zags11
02-18-2017, 10:27 PM
Sorry Kelly, cant really talk trash when you got bounced in the second round. I highly doubt this team loses in round 2.

I agree. And 2013 wasn't 28-0 to begin the season. I'll never take something away from our old zag teams but this 2017 over 2013 IMO.

OZZY
02-18-2017, 10:38 PM
I think it would be much closer than many are giving credit for.

KO is the best player on the floor hands down, and a healthy Bell and Pangos (it is amazing how many of you forget how good he was already) would give this team a run for their money.

Not saying they would beat them but I am not so sure it is as cut and dried as you all think.

TheZagPhish
02-18-2017, 10:45 PM
Secret side game during Hoopfest?

Zagceo
02-18-2017, 10:46 PM
Nigel told Kelly to say it.

MDABE80
02-18-2017, 11:21 PM
Doesn't matter. We loved the 2013 team. Same with this one. Time to turn attention to the BYU game. 30-0 would be nice.
3 weeks till selection Sunday. Pathway will be determined. We've got some great kids on the job. If they stay, it'll be a blessing.

CDC84
02-18-2017, 11:50 PM
Nigel told Kelly to say it.

It wouldn't surprise me :)

Zagger
02-19-2017, 01:38 AM
It wouldn't surprise me :)
Nor me. It's trash talkin'... twinkle in eye stuff. Starting 5 for starting 5 though and it'd sure sell a few tickets. With whole teams the 17 depth and D might help even up the experience Sam, Kelly and gang have now (if an actual game was played). Kelly was an amazing Zag but of the whole bunch in think I might enjoy most seeing Mike Hart back on the floor.

TexasZagFan
02-19-2017, 04:45 AM
Nor me. It's trash talkin'... twinkle in eye stuff. Starting 5 for starting 5 though and it'd sure sell a few tickets. With whole teams the 17 depth and D might help even up the experience Sam, Kelly and gang have now (if an actual game was played). Kelly was an amazing Zag but of the whole bunch in think I might enjoy most seeing Mike Hart back on the floor.

Nigel's putting his degree to work...lol.

bartruff1
02-19-2017, 05:01 AM
Kelly has probably forgot more about basketball that most in here will ever know....but I think he got this wrong....

I suspect that the 2013 team could not guard the 2017 team....

I also think demeaning the 13 team with the loss at Butler (Kelly was fouled) and the loss to a Shocker team that advanced to the FF and went on to have a undefeated season the next year are cheap shots...

Bogozags
02-19-2017, 05:11 AM
Ok, some good arguments from both sides and I believe it would be a classic battle and I'd pay a ton of money to watch that game on a "neutral court;" however, have we forgotten about Harris? The front court combo of Harris and Kelly is imo the best we have had at GU under Coach Few...they could both defend and score. KO, when he put his mind to it, was unstoppable...I remember several games where he was held to a couple-three baskets in the first half and then would come out and just dominate the paint. Harris was also a beast inside and had a super nice 10-15' jump shot too! Both could fill the lanes on the break and finish. They we're extremely tough on defence too. Include Hart and that front line was awfully darn formidable. The weakest starter would have been Kevin as his defence would be suspect, especially if he had to guard NWG...a healthy Gary would have been able to hold his own against any of the starters on both ends of the court. Stockton, imo would also have been a liability that year as he was no threat from the outside.

Regardless of what so may think about Sam, he was a difficult match-up on both ends of the court and could have held his own. I just don't know if the "13" PK could have defended Collins...no sure how either would do on defending each other as PK had a lot of weight and good foot work even back then...

First off, there is no one on this team that could defend KO. He was just too quick, athletic and skilled. PK and ZC would both be in foul trouble early. GU would more than likely have to go to a zone to contain Kelly and Harris and that is when KP would find his shots...and the "13" team would dominate the glass...

Man for man, I'd take NWG over KP, GBJ over Josh and Matthew/Melson over Stockton/Hart but KO over PK, Harris over JW3, Sam over Tillie and ZC over PK...don't forget the "13" bench also had KD and Drew so they had some other options...

All in all, it would be a great game and I think the "17" team would be favored and I'd take the "13" team and the points...

Bogozags
02-19-2017, 05:15 AM
Doesn't matter. We loved the 2013 team. Same with this one. Time to turn attention to the BYU game. 30-0 would be nice.
3 weeks till selection Sunday. Pathway will be determined. We've got some great kids on the job. If they stay, it'll be a blessing.

Doc, as confident as I am, let's worry about USD this Thursday before BYU on Saturday...lol

CarolinaZagFan
02-19-2017, 05:25 AM
2017 is easily the best Zags team ever. No need to try debating it.

ZionZag
02-19-2017, 05:39 AM
Does anyone have the defensive stats for the 13 team to compare to the 17 team????

gonzagafan62
02-19-2017, 05:47 AM
Does anyone have the defensive stats for the 13 team to compare to the 17 team????

2013: #30 in defensive efficiency
2017: #2 defensive efficiency

RenoZag
02-19-2017, 06:28 AM
2013 Team

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x375/RenoZag/Olynyk%20Zags%2040min%20stats_zpsgwy23iac.jpg (http://s1178.photobucket.com/user/RenoZag/media/Olynyk%20Zags%2040min%20stats_zpsgwy23iac.jpg.html )

2017 Team

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x375/RenoZag/NWG%20Zags%20per%2040%20min_zpsgyxtkzji.jpg (http://s1178.photobucket.com/user/RenoZag/media/NWG%20Zags%20per%2040%20min_zpsgyxtkzji.jpg.html)

Stats by season available here: http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/gonzaga/ Various charts ( Season Totals, Per 100 poss., etc. )

JPtheBeasta
02-19-2017, 06:28 AM
I would love to have Hart on this team.

krii
02-19-2017, 07:29 AM
Ok, some good arguments from both sides and I believe it would be a classic battle and I'd pay a ton of money to watch that game on a "neutral court;" however, have we forgotten about Harris? The front court combo of Harris and Kelly is imo the best we have had at GU under Coach Few...they could both defend and score. KO, when he put his mind to it, was unstoppable...I remember several games where he was held to a couple-three baskets in the first half and then would come out and just dominate the paint. Harris was also a beast inside and had a super nice 10-15' jump shot too! Both could fill the lanes on the break and finish. They we're extremely tough on defence too. Include Hart and that front line was awfully darn formidable. The weakest starter would have been Kevin as his defence would be suspect, especially if he had to guard NWG...a healthy Gary would have been able to hold his own against any of the starters on both ends of the court. Stockton, imo would also have been a liability that year as he was no threat from the outside.

Regardless of what so may think about Sam, he was a difficult match-up on both ends of the court and could have held his own. I just don't know if the "13" PK could have defended Collins...no sure how either would do on defending each other as PK had a lot of weight and good foot work even back then...

First off, there is no one on this team that could defend KO. He was just too quick, athletic and skilled. PK and ZC would both be in foul trouble early. GU would more than likely have to go to a zone to contain Kelly and Harris and that is when KP would find his shots...and the "13" team would dominate the glass...

Man for man, I'd take NWG over KP, GBJ over Josh and Matthew/Melson over Stockton/Hart but KO over PK, Harris over JW3, Sam over Tillie and ZC over PK...don't forget the "13" bench also had KD and Drew so they had some other options...

All in all, it would be a great game and I think the "17" team would be favored and I'd take the "13" team and the points...

One thing I have to add here is that I don't see that huge difference between Kelly's advantage on offense in 2013 and Przemek's advantage on defense in 2017 (and really high efficiency on offense ANYWAY). Even if Kelly was a great offensive weapon do you really believe he could handle 2017's Karnowski on defense? Shem is scoring 13ppg (23ppg per 40) vs KO's 18ppg (27ppg per 40) BUT Shem is much better passer (2 apg/3.6per 40 vs 1.7 apg/2.6 per 40), he fouls less and has less turnovers per game. Even his FT% aren't that bad anymore. They are equal in shot blocking and Kelly has slight advantages in steals and overall shooting (higher percentages, efficiency + perimeter shooting). Of course Olynyk could go for 25+/10+/1+/1+ on .600/.300/.750 but then again Karnowski can easily go for 20/8/4/1+/1+ on /.600 fg and .600 ft. Plus I don't believe that Kelly would be that hot against such a bid body - which is the case why he hasn't excelled in the NBA whilst facing dominant, physical players.

Thoughts? :)

thespywhozaggedme
02-19-2017, 07:33 AM
Doc, as confident as I am, let's worry about USD this Thursday before BYU on Saturday...lol

We don't have to worry about anything. We are dorky posters on a message board. What we post on the message board has no bearing on what happens on the court whatsoever.

avid-zag-fan
02-19-2017, 07:51 AM
If I understand KenPom, this years team would be favored to win over any other zag team since 2002 (or any tourney team this year). But I might have to bet against the spread against some of those other zag teams.

RenoZag
02-19-2017, 08:04 AM
What we post on the message board has no bearing on what happens on the court whatsoever.

Has no bearing on the message board either.

thespywhozaggedme
02-19-2017, 08:21 AM
Has no bearing on the message board either.

Correct. Has anyone ever argued to the contrary? Because many people seem to imply that what we post has a bearing on the basketball court but I've never seen anyone imply that what we post on a message board has any influence on said message board. Have you?

basketballzag
02-19-2017, 09:30 AM
Correct. Has anyone ever argued to the country? Because many people seem to imply that what we post has a bearing on the basketball court but I've never seen anyone imply that what we post on a message board has any influence on said message board. Have you?

A freshman Rem or a Senior Rem🤷👌

Ill take NBA ready Rem 2017 over D League Ready Rem 2013

seacatfan
02-19-2017, 09:32 AM
Jeez, Rem's per 40 minute scoring has plummeted from 2013 to this year. Rem is really letting the team down this season.

NumberCruncher
02-19-2017, 09:40 AM
Coach Few would be beside himself in that game?

77Zag
02-19-2017, 10:05 AM
Lets suit them up and find out

Zags11
02-19-2017, 10:30 AM
I would love to have Hart on this team.

Lol for who? Stop. Hart isn't better then any starter on this team.

Worthington
02-19-2017, 10:33 AM
I'll take the 2017 team, but it would be a good game.

I think Olynyk and Williams-Goss are both similar calibre of players as two top 5 NPOY candidates. However, I think the 2017 team has the defensive weapons to slow down Kelly more than the 2013 team does to slow down Nigel. Don't get me wrong, Bell and Hart were very good defenders, but I think the size, strength, and craftiness of Nigel is a problem for either of them.

Harris is an all time great, but him vs. JW3 is nearly a wash. Harris on offense, JW3 on defense.

In my mind, there are two key difference makers in this game. One is Mike Hart being a liability on offense. The 2017 team is already so good defensively that it would cause so many problems for the other players (especially Pangos and Bell) if they were essentially able to leave Hart alone and swarm the rest of the players. The second is the 2017 squads bench unit, mainly Zach Collins. His size, skill, and athleticism just are not matched on the 2013 team. Defensively he could give Olynyk a battle and on the boards and offensively I think he would be a major headache. Love Dower, Dranginis, Stockton, etc. but Collins, Melson, and Tillie are the more effective and versatile bench unit.

seacatfan
02-19-2017, 10:35 AM
Lol for who? Stop. Hart isn't better then any starter on this team.

Thank you. I've never been on board w/ the legend of Hart. He seems to get better every year since he's been gone, at least in the minds of some. Which guy in the 8 man rotation would he be taking minutes from this year? Frankly I'll take this year's Melson over Hart all day long any day. Certainly wouldn't play him as an undersized 4 when you have the option of Collins or Tillie. He'd be fighting w/ Alberts, Rui or Jones for scraps.

Zags11
02-19-2017, 11:28 AM
Thank you. I've never been on board w/ the legend of Hart. He seems to get better every year since he's been gone, at least in the minds of some. Which guy in the 8 man rotation would he be taking minutes from this year? Frankly I'll take this year's Melson over Hart all day long any day. Certainly wouldn't play him as an undersized 4 when you have the option of Collins or Tillie. He'd be fighting w/ Alberts, Rui or Jones for scraps.

This. But I know why.

YukonJack
02-19-2017, 11:31 AM
Its clear that most become the biggest fans of the most current team and I see some posts hinting at a criticism towards 2013 team. I would rather not go that route and simply just state your all time best teams in order in the Few era. One thru 18. Any thoughts?

Zags11
02-19-2017, 11:33 AM
Its clear that most become the biggest fans of the most current team and I see some posts hinting at a criticism towards 2013 team. I would rather not go that route and simply just state your all time best teams in order in the Few era. One thru 18. Any thoughts?

I'm a fan every year. I simply think this team would win by 8-10. We shall see in tourney tho.

gonzagafan62
02-19-2017, 11:41 AM
Its clear that most become the biggest fans of the most current team and I see some posts hinting at a criticism towards 2013 team. I would rather not go that route and simply just state your all time best teams in order in the Few era. One thru 18. Any thoughts?

I've only been a fan of basketball (Gonzaga only too btw) since 2007 so my list would be rather short. I know and understand the history of the teams behind it so that would be cool ...

Anyway I'd say it goes something like this (in order)

2017
2015
2013
2009
2008
2016
2012
2010
2014
2011
2007

ZionZag
02-19-2017, 12:14 PM
2013: #30 in defensive efficiency
2017: #2 defensive efficiency

Seems to be enough of a spread that I might bet some $$$

NumberCruncher
02-19-2017, 12:23 PM
Pomeroy would make this year's team a six point favorite, with a 72% chance of winning.

gonzagafan62
02-19-2017, 12:24 PM
2013 Team

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x375/RenoZag/Olynyk%20Zags%2040min%20stats_zpsgwy23iac.jpg (http://s1178.photobucket.com/user/RenoZag/media/Olynyk%20Zags%2040min%20stats_zpsgwy23iac.jpg.html )

2017 Team

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x375/RenoZag/NWG%20Zags%20per%2040%20min_zpsgyxtkzji.jpg (http://s1178.photobucket.com/user/RenoZag/media/NWG%20Zags%20per%2040%20min_zpsgyxtkzji.jpg.html)

Stats by season available here: http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/gonzaga/ Various charts ( Season Totals, Per 100 poss., etc. )

I'm really not understanding why we don't play Ryan Edwards more. PP40P is the best on the team

Zags11
02-19-2017, 12:29 PM
Pomeroy would make this year's team a six point favorite, with a 72% chance of winning.

Boom goes the dynamite.

ZagsGoZags
02-19-2017, 12:34 PM
This team is developing some potential NBA excellent players.
That '13 team had one in Kelly. This defense might, as KO states, have trouble defending
the '13 team, but that is true in reverse even more so.
The 13 team had 3 dips their season showing a lower low than we have shown (although Iowa St. game could have EASILY been a loss).
Fun question. We'll never know. The 13 team would have an answer for Shem right now,
but this team would have no answer to KO.
Overall, though, I would bet on this team to win by small margin.

Bogozags
02-19-2017, 12:53 PM
One thing I have to add here is that I don't see that huge difference between Kelly's advantage on offense in 2013 and Przemek's advantage on defense in 2017 (and really high efficiency on offense ANYWAY). Even if Kelly was a great offensive weapon do you really believe he could handle 2017's Karnowski on defense? Shem is scoring 13ppg (23ppg per 40) vs KO's 18ppg (27ppg per 40) BUT Shem is much better passer (2 apg/3.6per 40 vs 1.7 apg/2.6 per 40), he fouls less and has less turnovers per game. Even his FT% aren't that bad anymore. They are equal in shot blocking and Kelly has slight advantages in steals and overall shooting (higher percentages, efficiency + perimeter shooting). Of course Olynyk could go for 25+/10+/1+/1+ on .600/.300/.750 but then again Karnowski can easily go for 20/8/4/1+/1+ on /.600 fg and .600 ft. Plus I don't believe that Kelly would be that hot against such a bid body - which is the case why he hasn't excelled in the NBA whilst facing dominant, physical players.

Thoughts? :)

First off, I love both players but...this is just my opinion but I don't believe there is anyone playing in the NCAA's this year that could guard KO...PK has not faced anyone as athletic or skilled as KO and KO would also be a rim protector...

OZZY
02-19-2017, 01:26 PM
First off, I love both players but...this is just my opinion but I don't believe there is anyone playing in the NCAA's this year that could guard KO...PK has not faced anyone as athletic or skilled as KO and KO would also be a rim protector...

This is my thinking also.

KO is also a very cerebral player (like Pangos and NWG).

The biggest question would be which coach Few would come out on top...

:)

seacatfan
02-19-2017, 01:28 PM
The biggest question would be which coach Few would come out on top...

:)

It's always a bit awkward when he has to coach against a close friend/former assistant coach. One shudders to think what would happen if he had to coach against himself.

Malastein
02-19-2017, 01:47 PM
It's tough to ever bet against an undefeated team who is handling all challenges that have come there way. I'd also be willing to bet that there are 4 guys on this team who will play in the NBA, and that doesn't include a couple wildcard players who are riding the pine but could end up blossoming once they get their turn. I'd also bet that Nigel Williams-Goss has the longest career of any Zag guard since Dan Dickau. His pro potential is shockingly underrated. I really don't know why he isn't rated as a surefire 1st rounder, but I guarantee he will be.

gonzagafan62
02-19-2017, 01:50 PM
The 2013 team got beat by a team that featured a young and vastly underrated Kawhi Leonard, who was the best overall player on the court. He's now an NBA superstar and a borderline MVP candidate annually. This helps the context for the 2013 early exit. However, it's tough to ever bet against an undefeated team who is handling all challenges that have come there way. I'd also be willing to bet that there are 4 guys on this team who will play in the NBA, and that doesn't include a couple wildcard players who are riding the pine but could end up blossoming once they get their turn. I'd also bet that Nigel Williams-Goss has the longest career of any Zag guard since Dan Dickau. His pro potential is shockingly underrated. I really don't know why he isn't rated as a surefire 1st rounder, but I guarantee he will be.

2013s only losses were:

Illinois - Brandon Paul
Butler - Roosevelt Jones
Wichita State -Ron Baker, Fred Van Vleet

No leonard. Leonard played on SDSU from 2009-11.

EDIT: One common thing we couldn't guard? Guards. Although Bell did stop Marcus Foster, among other guards, just not the elite elite. Mostly the semi elite (international type players not NBA type players)

JPtheBeasta
02-19-2017, 01:55 PM
It's always a bit awkward when he has to coach against a close friend/former assistant coach. One shudders to think what would happen if he had to coach against himself.

I want to know how Coach Few would fair coaching against 10 mini-Coach Fews.

Da Zags!

MTZag03
02-19-2017, 03:07 PM
2013 Team

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x375/RenoZag/Olynyk%20Zags%2040min%20stats_zpsgwy23iac.jpg (http://s1178.photobucket.com/user/RenoZag/media/Olynyk%20Zags%2040min%20stats_zpsgwy23iac.jpg.html )

2017 Team

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x375/RenoZag/NWG%20Zags%20per%2040%20min_zpsgyxtkzji.jpg (http://s1178.photobucket.com/user/RenoZag/media/NWG%20Zags%20per%2040%20min_zpsgyxtkzji.jpg.html)

Stats by season available here: http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/gonzaga/ Various charts ( Season Totals, Per 100 poss., etc. )

We've got to get 2017 Rem a basket. I didn't realize he hasn't got a shot this year.

ScrapironJim
02-19-2017, 06:49 PM
IMO it is OK for fans to make endless comparisons. It is not OK for current or previous players. Out of respect for the program, they should not make comparisons of any kind - way out of line!!!!!

TheZagPhish
02-19-2017, 06:57 PM
2017 Few knows 2013 Few, not the other way around. Advantage hindsight.


I want to know how Coach Few would fair coaching against 10 mini-Coach Fews.

Da Zags!

:clap:

scrooner
02-19-2017, 08:17 PM
IMO it is OK for fans to make endless comparisons. It is not OK for current or previous players. Out of respect for the program, they should not make comparisons of any kind - way out of line!!!!!

Come on, the only thing he was quoted as saying was, "They couldn’t guard us". And knowing Kelly, he probably said it with a big grin.

CDC84
02-19-2017, 09:55 PM
I'd also bet that Nigel Williams-Goss has the longest career of any Zag guard since Dan Dickau. His pro potential is shockingly underrated. I really don't know why he isn't rated as a surefire 1st rounder, but I guarantee he will be.

I 100% agree with you on Mal. NWG has proven that he can now knock down long range shots, as well as mid range ones. That was a concern before. His defense has gotten way better since his days at UW. I understand that he doesn't have that jaw dropping, Russell Westbrook like athleticism, but he is a decent athlete, and unlike some of GU's other guard prospects in the past, he has good SIZE for a NBA point guard. I have to believe we will see his stock rise as March moves forward, but if he chooses to come back next year, he will get even more recognition because a lot of really good PG's will be gone. I think one of NWG's problems is that he is just being overshadowed by Fox, Ball and all these other stud freshmen point guards.

Call me nuts, but I just have to believe that some team is going to take Karnowski at the back end of the 2nd round. I'd draft him just for his usefulness as a practice player. 7-1, 300lb+ big guys with his skill level and basketball IQ are not very common. Even if he's the 12th guy in the rotation....he has some usefulness.

ScrapironJim
02-20-2017, 06:16 AM
Come on, the only thing he was quoted as saying was, "They couldn’t guard us". And knowing Kelly, he probably said it with a big grin.

You are probably right. I may be a little hard on KO. He has always seemed to be a great guy - and is on the best Zags in program history. I simply have a preference for fans and players alike to take the position that the '13 team and the '17 team are two of our best teams. In our culture we tend to elevate one person or team to the level of best and all others wind up denigrated. For example, compare Montana and Brady. I prefer the position that they are two of the best. Thanks for your feedback. It was kindly said and most constructive.

mgadfly
02-20-2017, 09:51 AM
Comparing the 2017 Zags now (before the WCC tourney and NCAA tourney) to the 2013 Zags after those games is a little unfair. I'm not sure where 2013 was before the WCC, but before the NCAA they were #3 adjusted offense and #19 adjusted defense. This GU team still has BYU in the regular season, probably a decent #4/#5 matchup in the WCC and then most likely SMC plus a couple tougher games in the NCAA.

So overall (as of this moment) it is 2013 with a better than #3 offense and #19 defense vs 2017 team with a #5 offense and #2 defense with those numbers more likely to drop than go up (there isn't much upward mobility when you are top 5 and we have better competition on the horizon).

But as much as I like the team statistics of 2017 and there is something about the sum of the parts being greater than the individuals with both seasons, basketball really is a game of match ups.

C: Karnowski 17 vs Olynyk 13: Huge advantage Olynyk.
KO had better numbers offensively across the board. Efficiency, true field goal percentage, usage, free throws, 3 pointers, etc... He was a much better offensive rebounder. And the eye test confirms it on the offensive end. KO was one of the most difficult match ups that year because of his ability to create a mismatch no matter who was guarding him. Big guy? Take him outside and shoot or put the ball on the floor, spin and finish at the rim. Little guy? Use one of a dozen effective moves from the post, draw a foul, getting to the rim. And if they hack-a-Kelly, make them pay for it from the free throw line. Karnowski creates a unique challenge with his size, but he is completely one dimensional compared to Kelly.

The only offensive stat that Karno has the edge is assist rate. Karno has an ARate of 17.2 (very good for a center- Collins (4.4), Tillie (7.9) Williams (5.5)). Olynyk was no slouch either with a very solid 15.1 assist rate. The edge there isn't nearly as pronounced as some people seem to imply.

Defensively, Olynyk was a much better shot blocker, had nearly twice as many steals, was a better rebounder, and managed to foul less often. Basically, every statistic that we use for defense favors KO. However, the eye test doesn't. KO was a good defender and his ability to block shots helped protect the rim some, but Karno eats up so much space and really shuts down offenses in ways that are harder to quantify. I'd give Karno the edge defensively, but there is an argument to be made for Olynyk (whose defense his JR year was as much improved as his offense).

Matching up though, I think Karno would not be able to guard Olynyk (not many people were able to that year). It'd be a problem for the 2017 Zags that would keep 2013 in the game.

PF: Williams III 2017 vs Harris 2013: Huge advantage Harris
Comparing the two is kind of a joke. Williams III isn't nearly as integrated in GU's offense as Harris was. W3 gets his opportunities by diving to the basket and feasting off double teams on Karno or getting offensive rebounds. His usage numbers (18% of shots while on the floor) reflect that. When the offense wasn't being run for KO, it was being run for Harris. His offensive efficiency is slightly lower the W3's but his role in the offense was very different (it wasn't just put backs and dives for him). Harris has significantly better rebounding numbers, had an assist rate more than double W3's, his steal numbers were better, he drew fouls way more often putting pressure on the other team, and almost never fouled. W3 is superior in one statistic defensively ... blocked shots.

These two playing each other would be interesting to watch. Both great athletes, but different types of players. Harris with much better skill, balance and game intelligence. Still, there was a reason Harris is so near the top on many GU career record lists. He'd have an obvious advantage here.

Reserves: Collins '17 and Tillie '17 vs Dower '13 and Karno '13: Massive advantage to 2017
Collins' numbers completely obliterate Dower's contributions. It isn't even close. Of our rotation players in either year, Collins is the most efficient offensively discounting Mike Hart's insane 163 rating due to only taking rare wide open shots. His insane rebounding numbers are nearly twice as good as Dowers and in recent years are most comparable to Sabonis (not quite there, but close). He blocks shots better than Austin Daye and anyone since Will Foster. He draws fouls better than Sacre. It is as if we took the best parts of each of the great big men we've had over the past decade, combined them to make one complete big man with no weaknesses. By comparison, Dower couldn't rebound, block shots, draw fouls, or pass.

Tillie vs Karno '13 is a more interesting comparison. Karno was a better rebounder and shot blocker as a freshman. Karno also drew fouls at a very decent rate. Tillie is the more efficient offensive player and passes twice as well. Both had very good stat lines for 8th man type of players. It's probably a draw on paper, but Karno's unique size may give him a slight edge.

But the bench big guys really goes to 17 without question because of Collins' dominance.

SF: Hart/Edi '13 vs Matthews/Melson '17: Advantage '17
Most of 2013's season Mark Few was desperately attempting to find a regular player to hold down the small forward position. We ended up settling for a guy that took less than 5% of the shots while he was on the floor. His defense (great steals numbers) and offensive rebounding were elite. And as much as many of us loved the plucky walk-on to starter for #1 ranked team in the nation story-line, Hart's ascendance was because there was no Matthews or Melson type player on the roster (or stated otherwise, the Edi experiment failed). On paper, M&M are not nearly as good defending as Hart was. And if you want to see superb perimeter defense, start up a recording of a 2013 game and watch Hart hustle all over the floor. But, Hart gave the team nothing but offensive rebounds on one end of the floor while M&M force teams to defend every inch of the half court and both like to get out and run in transition. The one knock on SM was his three point shooting, but he is hitting 42% of his shots from deep this season.

SG: Perkins '17 vs GBJ '13: slight advantage '13
Perkins has been fairly inefficient (by GU standards at least) this season. Despite better 3 point shooting than GBJ had in 13 his O-Rating is a pedestrian 108.4. But GBJ's was only slightly better at 112.4. However, GBJ often times drew the toughest match up on defense an exerted a ton of energy on that side of the ball. That's a contribution that Perkins does not have to make as Goss and Melson routinely draw tougher match ups. Perkins does have a much better assist rate than GBJ but he also turns the ball over substantially more.

Reasonable minds could disagree here, but GBJ brought better defense and a slightly more consistent approach.

PG: Pangos/Stockton '13 vs Goss '17 Advantage: 2017
If you look at Pangos' numbers you see an incredibly efficient stat-line. Every offensive number is extremely good and even defensive numbers look better on paper than his play does in my memory. Pangos' 2.8% steals rate is very respectable, for example. And he did so while only fouling 2.5 times per 40. You look at his line and wonder how anyone could improve on it. Then you look at Goss who is more efficient (both are insanely efficient players though), takes on a bigger role in the offense, has a much better assist rate numbers, has a 3.2% steal rate and is only fouling 1.9 times per forty. Goss is shooting 10% better from the free throw line. The only stat where Pangos is ahead is 3 point percentage. With Goss dominating the stat line against one of the greatest point guards we've had, he also rebounds like a forward giving him a distinct advantage over Pangos. NWG has better offense, defense, and rebounding. He is the elite star player that Olynyk was for the 2013 team, even if we sometimes lose track of that fact.

Throwing in Stockton's top 10 steal rate and top 100 assist rate complicates the comparison and gives ammunition to the 2013 fans. But Stockton was another drag on the offense whenever he was forced to shoot and was the inverse of Karnowski, creating mismatches by his lack of size and strength where none should have existed.

Here, I think NWG would pretty much have his way with 2013, though I suspect he'd be going against Hart and GBJ more than he would Pangos or Stockton.

To me, the difference is Collins. While Olynyk creates a big problem for 2017, NWG neutralizes that with his overall back court game. But 2017 pulls away when the teams go to their benches and its Collins vs Dower, or Stockton vs Silas. Here is my 7 game series result:

Game 1: Thirteen 71 at Seventeen 84 - MVP NWG 22 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists
Game 2: Thirteen 74 at Seventeen 76 - MVP Karno 7 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists (held Olynyk in check)
Game 3: Seventeen 70 at Thirteen 73 - MVP Olynyk 26 points, 10 rebounds, 2 blocks
Game 4: Seventeen 84 at Thirteen 70 - MVP NWG 18 points, 7 rebounds, 9 assists
Game 5: Seventeen 81 at Thirteen 90 - MVP Olynyk 34 points, 9 rebounds, 3 blocks (both Karno and Collins fouled out)
Game 6: Thirteen 65 at Seventeen 72 - MVP Collins 24 points, 12 rebounds

4 games to 2.

TheGonzagaFactor
02-20-2017, 10:03 AM
I would love to have Hart on this team.

Who does he replace at the end of the bench, Rem or Triano? Hart wouldn't sniff the floor for this team.

RenoZag
02-20-2017, 11:13 AM
Who does he replace at the end of the bench, Rem or Triano? Hart wouldn't sniff the floor for this team.

When Wichita State knocked off Olynyk's bunch, who led the game in rebounding for the Zags ? Hart had 14 boards.


On March 14, 2013, Sports Illustrated published its 14th Annual "Glue Guys" Team: http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2013/03/14/hoop-thoughts


8 -The number of turnovers Hart has committed this season. In 552 minutes. "I challenge you to go through the annals of history and see if you can find anybody with a stat like that," Gonzaga coach Mark Few says.


"He's unbelievable, man. I've never had anybody like him in all my years of coaching," Few says. "Every team in America could use somebody like him. He has a knack for the ball that you just can't teach. He's incredible at taking charges, at helping, at fighting through screens and moving the ball. He's a crafty, timely cutter. And then he'll come to you and tell you that he doesn't want to start because someone else needs more confidence. He has work ethic, honor, values -- everything, man. He's just a big-time kid."

Reaction to Davis' article on this MBB Forum was enthusiastic: http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?45112-Seth-Davis-All-Glue-Team&highlight=Mike+Hart

Saying Mike Hart wouldn't sniff the court is ludicrous. He wouldn't be a starter but to assert he's on the same level as perpetual pine riders like Bakamus and Triano is a jaw dropping display of hyperbolic Zag hatred, the kind normally displayed by the Skip Bayless' of the world.

JPtheBeasta
02-20-2017, 12:12 PM
Who does he replace at the end of the bench, Rem or Triano? Hart wouldn't sniff the floor for this team.


I'm not good about speculating about things like that. He might not have gotten a foot in the door on this team (I'm not sure how he got on the floor on the team he played with). But knowing what we know now about what he brought to the table, I think he would play on most Mark Few teams. He was the proverbial selfless x-factor player that most teams want.

Birddog
02-20-2017, 02:48 PM
Saying Mike Hart wouldn't sniff the court is ludicrous. He wouldn't be a starter but to assert he's on the same level as perpetual pine riders like Bakamus and Triano is a jaw dropping display of hyperbolic Zag hatred, the kind normally displayed by the Skip Bayless' of the world.


OUCHIE!!

mzimmer
02-20-2017, 07:22 PM
Really can't comment on 13' seeing as how I'm a Jonny-come-lately. But as stated above, I can't imagine a bench better than Collins, Melson and Tillie. Let's be real, Collins Starts everywhere else in the nation. Melson starts on most teams in the nation, Tillie on Half the teams.
For us, Collins would have started at the 5 this year and we could have moved Bam to the 4. Done.... we win everything. Ha!

On a serious note, I'm sure you guys have figured out how rare what you have is. It's actually frustrating that we didn't get Collins. I do know that we were there late with Collins, but word was that he was all zag early. I'm sure a lot of people are kicking themselves now and that it's just not us.

Tillie, I'm not sure who knew about him. Not sure who picked that flower somebody on your staff had a friend in France.

seacatfan
02-20-2017, 09:42 PM
mzimmer, you're not going to get one ounce of sympathy around here because Collins chose GU rather than UK. Calipari has signed what, several dozen McD's AA since he's been in Lexington? Collins is the first ever straight from high school Burger Boy to come to Gonzaga. UK and Duke can't get ALL of them.

mzimmer
02-20-2017, 09:58 PM
I know, I know.
But a guy can wish right. I think Coach is pretty good at bringing those guys in. I think it would be awesome if we had the arena with Golden Arches when you walked through the front. That said, it's not like we win the championship every year. In fact we've run a little dry as of late.
Maybe if Collins doesn't go NBA this year, we can get him as a transfer. It's only fair! You took one of ours.

MDABE80
02-20-2017, 10:36 PM
Agree with Reno. Nobody we've had could get us 10 pts with his defense . Mike was one of a kind. Big kid and the greatest disruptor I've seen at GU ever! He just caused mayhem. Team guy. Love to have him back. One of those unforgettable kids we've had. He was everywhere! Although looking at Corey K, he could be the next one. Scores very well too! Go Zags!

willandi
02-21-2017, 07:21 AM
2013s only losses were:

Illinois - Brandon Paul
Butler - Roosevelt Jones
Wichita State -Ron Baker, Fred Van Vleet

No leonard. Leonard played on SDSU from 2009-11.

EDIT: One common thing we couldn't guard? Guards. Although Bell did stop Marcus Foster, among other guards, just not the elite elite. Mostly the semi elite (international type players not NBA type players)

Well, there ya go. In 2013 they lost 3 games...2 to one player and 1 to 2 players.

Speaks for itself. This team has 5 players.

seacatfan
02-21-2017, 10:51 AM
Maybe if Collins doesn't go NBA this year, we can get him as a transfer. It's only fair! You took one of ours.

Gonzaga is pretty selfish on the transferring front. They've certainly had some guys leave, but very few of them have had much impact. Definitely on the plus side as far as talent coming in vs. talent leaving the program. GU has been snagging UW players here and there for years and has yet to send one back to the Huskies (I'm not counting a former walk on who went to play football at UW).

JPtheBeasta
02-21-2017, 11:19 AM
Spangler was the only one to leave in my recent memory that I coveted.

Corky
02-21-2017, 11:30 AM
2013 Team

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x375/RenoZag/Olynyk%20Zags%2040min%20stats_zpsgwy23iac.jpg (http://s1178.photobucket.com/user/RenoZag/media/Olynyk%20Zags%2040min%20stats_zpsgwy23iac.jpg.html )

2017 Team

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x375/RenoZag/NWG%20Zags%20per%2040%20min_zpsgyxtkzji.jpg (http://s1178.photobucket.com/user/RenoZag/media/NWG%20Zags%20per%2040%20min_zpsgyxtkzji.jpg.html)

Stats by season available here: http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/gonzaga/ Various charts ( Season Totals, Per 100 poss., etc. )

Man, Rem has really dropped off. 12.7 pts down to 1.7! Wonder if he is injured! :)

Bogozags
02-21-2017, 11:37 AM
I'm not good about speculating about things like that. He might not have gotten a foot in the door on this team (I'm not sure how he got on the floor on the team he played with). But knowing what we know now about what he brought to the table, I think he would play on most Mark Few teams. He was the proverbial selfless x-factor player that most teams want.

I remember him on the lane awaiting one of our players shooting free throws and he would get the miss! He reminds me of Paul Silas from the Celtics or Happy Hairston of the Lakers able to get offensive rebounds that should not have been gotten...he is that puzzle piece that fits just about any puzzle...one of my favorite players...reminds me of a 5'10" me...lol

ProVeeZag
02-21-2017, 11:41 AM
Man, Rem has really dropped off. 12.7 pts down to 1.7! Wonder if he is injured! :)

Personally, I think it's the "man-bun" throwing off his shot. Not balanced, overcompensating. Or possibly the crush of media scrutiny following his "elf" performance last Christmas. It's tough being a celebrity ... plays with your head.

seacatfan
02-21-2017, 11:43 AM
Spangler was the only one to leave in my recent memory that I coveted.

Arop had a couple decent years for Indiana St., Gibbs was a contributor at Creighton, Nunez found a much bigger role at South Florida than he had in Spokane...struggling to think others. Most of the guys transferring out of GU dropped off the radar. I was sorry to see several of them go, but GU kept rolling along.

And as far as Spangler, he filled a role nicely at OU but Sabonis made his departure irrelevant I think you could say.

sittingon50
02-21-2017, 11:58 AM
My 1st entry into the fray:

4 pages about this?

JPtheBeasta
02-21-2017, 12:11 PM
My 1st entry into the fray:

4 pages about this?

Ironically, you just got us that much closer to 5 pages :)

JPtheBeasta
02-21-2017, 12:19 PM
Arop had a couple decent years for Indiana St., Gibbs was a contributor at Creighton, Nunez found a much bigger role at South Florida than he had in Spokane...struggling to think others. Most of the guys transferring out of GU dropped off the radar. I was sorry to see several of them go, but GU kept rolling along.

And as far as Spangler, he filled a role nicely at OU but Sabonis made his departure irrelevant I think you could say.

Sabonis definitely covered up that loss. Spangler would have added some much-needed bench depth, but I can't begrudge him wanting to play more and going to Oklahoma (I think he also cited home sickness). I don't blame anyone for wanting to go somewhere they think will make them happier.

GoZag
02-21-2017, 12:22 PM
:000tens:


Also pretty sure this year's team could in-bound the ball at Hinkle

I am not confident that our in bounds problems are gone. They still don't run much for inbound plays and rely on throwing it up to the big guy too much. I don't know if it was Rice or Grier or who that came up with inbounds plays before 2013 but they are a lot less creative.

GoZag
02-21-2017, 12:31 PM
one thing that no one has mentioned is that I think Few '17 is better than Few '13 especially with the adding experience of coaching with Coach K on the Olympic teams. I think that Few learned how to coach defensive rotations from that experience and by recruiting people that fit into defense has taken us to a new level.