PDA

View Full Version : Greenberg's Concern



SunDevilGolfZag
02-13-2017, 06:11 PM
Greenberg just voiced his concern for the Zags that we lack a true 6'6" small forward. What about a 6'10" guy named Killian Tillie who can play that role in quite a few situations?

Hoopaholic
02-13-2017, 06:18 PM
I would ask coach what team has an exceptional 6"6 forward that has 4 exceptional bigs, two very good point guards and a shooting guard with another shooting/ defensive specialist on their bench

None

Virginia Zags Fan
02-13-2017, 06:30 PM
Hey, if you are looking to poke holes in this roster, that is about the only spot. In theory. It could be a problem in a game or two. However, who from the other team deals with the Zags mismatches? At this level it is about maximizing your strengths, exploit the other teams weaknesses, and minimize your own.

Hoopaholic
02-13-2017, 06:37 PM
Hey, if you are looking to poke holes in this roster, that is about the only spot. In theory. It could be a problem in a game or two. However, who from the other team deals with the Zags mismatches? At this level it is about maximizing your strengths, exploit the other teams weaknesses, and minimize your own.
Bingo on single game win and advance this is the key to success

jazzdelmar
02-13-2017, 06:43 PM
Seth just trying to stir things up. It's all good.

RenoZag
02-13-2017, 06:44 PM
Greenberg just voiced his concern for the Zags that we lack a true 6'6" small forward. What about a 6'10" guy named Killian Tillie who can play that role in quite a few situations?

He's quoting himself. He made the same point in his podcast w/ Katz earlier today. If that's GU's weakest link, they're still looking like a tough out to this fan

MDABE80
02-13-2017, 06:52 PM
Who ever said 6 6 is sacred? Silly stuff.

willandi
02-13-2017, 06:59 PM
He doesn't play all that much, but we've got Rui! A 6'8" small forward that is athletic as they get! Also got JJ at 6'6".

tempe85
02-13-2017, 07:01 PM
I agree with some of the previous comments here. Tillie's natural position in the NBA is going to be SF, so there's no way he can't do that in college. If GU runs up against a big SF, we have the length to deal with it.

Ekrub
02-13-2017, 07:03 PM
I think the only legitimate concern is being rusty against the athleticism the P5 conferences bring. It hasn't been a huge issue in the past (other than Syracuse some years back). I know we can handle it, just wonder how long (if any) of an adjustment period it will take.

Hoopaholic
02-13-2017, 07:03 PM
Listened to an NBC podcast and they claimed we had no guards. SMH

Zagceo
02-13-2017, 07:09 PM
I think the only legitimate concern is being rusty against the athleticism the P5 conferences bring. It hasn't been a huge issue in the past (other than Syracuse some years back). I know we can handle it, just wonder how long (if any) of an adjustment period it will take.

Practice.....

Markburn1
02-13-2017, 07:30 PM
I'll say this. Josh Jackson would look good in a Zag Uni.

Outraged
02-13-2017, 07:33 PM
Looking for missing links is a hairy subject. To do so directly you have to go back in time. All the way back to the Florida and Iowa State games. Those two games showed where we WERE weak. We have evolved greatly since then. We have grown more refined since then. More socialized better communication and less individualistic with new contributors emerging. The real question is whether we will regress or continue to grow or just settle.

Zag365
02-13-2017, 07:56 PM
Undefeated season, Shem not only recovered but is a dominate post, NGW in the running for POY, #1 ranking for 3 weeks, projected 1 seed in NCAA, top 5 offense/defense, led for approximately 90% of minutes played, no significant injuries, incredible depth, buuut we don't have a prototypical SF. DOOMED!

We should always have such problems.

Hoopaholic
02-13-2017, 08:31 PM
Looking for missing links is a hairy subject. To do so directly you have to go back in time. All the way back to the Florida and Iowa State games. Those two games showed where we WERE weak. We have evolved greatly since then. We have grown more refined since then. More socialized better communication and less individualistic with new contributors emerging. The real question is whether we will regress or continue to grow or just settle.

Thursday should answer the regress. Grow or settle question

hooter73
02-13-2017, 08:40 PM
He's asking who guards Lonzo Ball.

Hoopaholic
02-13-2017, 09:02 PM
He's asking who guards Lonzo Ball.

Mathews and melson

jpn17
02-13-2017, 09:25 PM
He's asking who guards Lonzo Ball.

To which I counter with who does Lonzo Ball guard?

WallaWallaZag
02-14-2017, 12:20 AM
To which I counter with who does Lonzo Ball guard?

ball is actually an excellent defender...shut down dillon brooks when switched to lead come back. alford is the weak link.

gonzagafan62
02-14-2017, 12:35 AM
I think the only legitimate concern is being rusty against the athleticism the P5 conferences bring. It hasn't been a huge issue in the past (other than Syracuse some years back). I know we can handle it, just wonder how long (if any) of an adjustment period it will take.

It wasn't an issue then either. Think we started 15-8 or something. Good start against the zone but they were just light years ahead. Our team was good but not Syracuse good

GonzagasaurusFlex
02-14-2017, 02:42 AM
Greenberg just voiced his concern for the Zags that we lack a true 6'6" small forward. What about a 6'10" guy named Killian Tillie who can play that role in quite a few situations?

It's a legit concern and one I have raised since preseason hoping Jones or Rui would earn some minutes so they can be relied on for 8-10 minutes of D during a crucial postseason game. Tillie hasn't played the 3 all year for Zags, so that'd be a real head scratcher to ask him to do so in a tourney game.

No team is perfect and I love Zags roster & rotation as is this late in the season. Now is not the time to make changes. Nothing wrong with Greenberg doing his job and commenting on what is in fact a potential weak spot for Zags. I seem to recall Justice Winslow and Duke exploiting the same positional mismatch quite effectively. Zags will just have to do a better job of exploiting the mismatches they have.

Malastein
02-14-2017, 02:57 AM
Greenberg just voiced his concern for the Zags that we lack a true 6'6" small forward. What about a 6'10" guy named Killian Tillie who can play that role in quite a few situations?

Is he hinting that Markelle Fultz might transfer in?

Zagger
02-14-2017, 04:00 AM
Is he hinting that Markelle Fultz might transfer in?

Interesting, while red shirting for GU he could do a year in the NBA. Sorta get his feet wet to see what pro ball is like. Then finish up at GU .... ;) ;) ;)

Hoopaholic
02-14-2017, 05:05 AM
ball is actually an excellent defender...shut down dillon brooks when switched to lead come back. alford is the weak link.

I contend ball cannot defend like he did in Oregon game for a full 40 minutes and that still leaves Alfred to guard. Or should I say try to guard one of our other players

thespywhozaggedme
02-14-2017, 06:12 AM
Nit has been picked. Just trying to create buzz.

TheGonzagaFactor
02-14-2017, 06:25 AM
Practice.....

You can't practice going against athleticism that you don't have on your roster.

Also, it's impossible to practice for how to handle a talented team in desperation mode, which is why we lost to an inferior Syracuse team last March and also why we nearly lost to a VERY inferior Iowa State team in November. We were 30+ points better than each of those teams, but in the case of Syracuse we didn't have any experience against talented, quick teams in the last 3 months of the season. Our toughest test in the WCC last year was a decent NIT team, and it's basically the same this year. So we were able to win two tough games in March, but not three like our ACC opponent did to get to the Final Four. They had experience playing tough game after tough game after tough game...... and we didn't... and it was JUST enough.

That's the whole 'any decent P5 team > Gonzaga' argument in a nutshell, and to this point it holds water. Hopefully this team breaks down the dam.

Zagsker
02-14-2017, 06:33 AM
You can't practice going against athleticism that you don't have on your roster.

Also, it's impossible to practice for how to handle a talented team in desperation mode, which is why we lost to an inferior Syracuse team last March and also why we nearly lost to a VERY inferior Iowa State team in November. We were 30+ points better than each of those teams, but in the case of Syracuse we didn't have any experience against talented, quick teams in the last 3 months of the season. Our toughest test in the WCC last year was a decent NIT team, and it's basically the same this year. So we were able to win two tough games in March, but not three like our ACC opponent did to get to the Final Four. They had experience playing tough game after tough game after tough game...... and we didn't... and it was JUST enough.

That's the whole 'any decent P5 team > Gonzaga' argument in a nutshell, and to this point it holds water. Hopefully this team breaks down the dam.

Kansas lost at home to that that inferior ISU team.

TexasZagFan
02-14-2017, 07:00 AM
You can't practice going against athleticism that you don't have on your roster.

Also, it's impossible to practice for how to handle a talented team in desperation mode, which is why we lost to an inferior Syracuse team last March and also why we nearly lost to a VERY inferior Iowa State team in November. We were 30+ points better than each of those teams, but in the case of Syracuse we didn't have any experience against talented, quick teams in the last 3 months of the season. Our toughest test in the WCC last year was a decent NIT team, and it's basically the same this year. So we were able to win two tough games in March, but not three like our ACC opponent did to get to the Final Four. They had experience playing tough game after tough game after tough game...... and we didn't... and it was JUST enough.

That's the whole 'any decent P5 team > Gonzaga' argument in a nutshell, and to this point it holds water. Hopefully this team breaks down the dam.

If there's any reason why we almost lost to ISU, look no farther than the limited amount of time our rotation had played together. Compare that to the last four minutes against SMC. Clock management was excellent, and enough offense was generated to at least get to the free throw line. That eight man rotation has now played enough minutes together to trust each other, and have a very good idea of where their teammates will be in a given situation.

WVU panicked last night...their guards were horrid in the last three minutes.

willandi
02-14-2017, 07:08 AM
Nit has been picked. Just trying to create buzz.

Nit picking?

CDC84
02-14-2017, 07:20 AM
Silas Melson. Legit 6-4. Best athlete and defender on the team. He too often gets forgotten.

Gary Bell was something like 6-1 to 6-2, and he used to be able to shut down Tyler Haws, who was about 4 inches taller than him. The idea is to just keep a guy like Josh Jackson from going off for 30 or something. But if GU were to face KU, how would they matchup with GU's frontcourt depth and talent level? Probably not too well.

Hogan
02-14-2017, 08:39 AM
Silas is not a legitimate 6'4". ( Sorry,a pet peeve of mine is over- exaggerating players height, eg Cory Kispert is not 6'8" ) But your point is well taken, our perimeter defense, and Silas's defense in particular is so good that giving up a few inches shouldn't be a major problem, although there could be some concerns with a strong 6'6" small forward posting our guards up or shooting over us in the lane. My bigger concern would be a 6'6" rangy athlete being able to guard Nigel, and bother him with his height, because we do not have a true small forward to guard.

Goshzagit
02-14-2017, 08:41 AM
One thing that has not been mentioned enough is Jordan Mathews defense.

A terrific off the ball defender. Best we've had in a long time, in terms of denying passing lanes, staying one step ahead, and being physical on lane cuts/screens.

Deserves way more credit and a reason our Team D is Top 5.

He studies film and it pays off.

Yes, his shooting has been inconsistent, as well as his offensive production, yet his defense shows up time and time again.

He denies his opponent the ball.

Hogan
02-14-2017, 08:46 AM
Agree on all counts regarding Jordan's defense. Interesting that the reports i read out of Cal is that he was a mediocre, almost indifferent defender. He has certainly bought in at GU

U Zig, I Zag
02-14-2017, 08:51 AM
For me, Jordan's offense problems are based off the double-edged sword that is his shooting form. Great for high shots, guy in your face - shooting from deep. But his shooting motion, when he is in motion (trying to attack the rim or drive and then pull up) seems real slow. Guys like NWG and Melson seem to get to the rim and into the lane and able to shoot one handed as needed (leaning in to get contact, using off hand to shield the defender, etc). Matthews doesn't seem to do that as often. Of course, he could be told not to do that by the staff and instead just concentrate on what he is generally good at (shooting 3's).

Goshzagit
02-14-2017, 09:08 AM
Agree on all counts regarding Jordan's defense. Interesting that the reports i read out of Cal is that he was a mediocre, almost indifferent defender. He has certainly bought in at GU

I had heard/read this report as well.

Another testament to GU's coaching staff. Mathews is one of the best off-the-ball defenders we've ever had at that spot.

He's not as formidable on-ball as, say, Silas Melson or even NWG (when healthy), yet not sure anyone puts as much effort around the court as him, esp since he's generally matched up vs taller players.

Watch the Arizona game. Jordan Mathews was defending a 6'6" combo guard and did very well denying him the ball, then watch him vs Florida. Defending a 6'9" Small forward! The Florida kid got some shots up, but they were tough, and Mathews denied him the ball in the 2nd half, even on post ups.

CDC84
02-14-2017, 09:36 AM
I still say that Melson looks a solid 6-4 to me. The guy whose height is really wrong is Mathews. He is not 6-4.

Byron Wesley also had a big time rep at USC for being, shall we say, leisurely as a defender, but the staff corrected that as well. The staff is honest with these players when they come in. You're not going to score as much as you did at your previous school, and you are going to have to do more things than just score. You're going to have to rebound, etc.

It's really hard to go back and evaluate how GU played against Iowa State, Florida and Arizona. In my view, this team is just so much better now than it was in late Nov/early Dec. There is so much more cohesion. I mean, if you consider that Karno only played a few games last season, 6 of GU's top 8 players didn't play for the team last season.


My bigger concern would be a 6'6" rangy athlete being able to guard Nigel, and bother him with his height, because we do not have a true small forward to guard.

A bigger concern for me than this is Nigel fouling out or getting hurt, and then having that 6-6 rangy athlete be put on Josh Perkins. He is still the worst ball handling guard I have seen under Few, and he continues to pick up the ball in corners and all sorts of other stuff that he should have grown out of by now. How many times has he turned it over after bouncing the ball off his foot or knee this season? I have concerns about him being able to handle defensive heat in the tournament. In some ways I am more comfortable with Melson and Mathews bringing the ball up the floor, and then maybe handing it over to Josh.

You may have noticed that in recent games the staff has been having NWG play off the ball more when he's playing with Perkins. They are doing this because it is kind of hard for the point guard to be "the guy" when you need a basket or two unless your Chris Paul or Derrick Rose. The staff are starting to run more and more plays for NWG as a wing because he is such a weapon on offense.

BoZarth
02-14-2017, 10:02 AM
Legit concern.

Does Erroll Knight have any eligibility left?

GU has had a string of good bigs and good guards. Long athletic wings are a different story. Look at the rosters of most the top teams over the years and this is where we are almost always at a disadvantage. However, the staff does an excellent job of playing to our strengths it's just when it gets down to nitty-gritty time in the NCAA's our weaknesses stand out even more.

But it's all good. It is what it is and I'm sure the staff has done and will continue to pursue the best basketball players they can find at all positions.

Go Zags!!!!

thespywhozaggedme
02-14-2017, 10:47 AM
Nit picking?

Yes, Greenberg is nit picking.

seacatfan
02-14-2017, 10:48 AM
The Zags currently have 2 guys that fit that prototype SF mold, they just aren't getting minutes--Jones and Hachimura. Similarly to when they had Landri Edi. Interesting to bring up Knight, he was a defensive stopper but his offensive game saw absolutely no development during his time at GU. I saw him several times his Fr. year at UW. I thought he was going to become a star. Not even remotely close as it turned out. I think there's more than ample evidence at this point to say that those prototypical athletic 6-6 to 6-8 SF types just do not emerge from the Gonzaga program. Morrison obviously was one of the most unstoppable offensive forces we'll ever see, but I don't think I'd call him a prototype. Skinner was decent. Guys like Arop and Kong didn't thrive. For whatever reason it's just not a GU thing.

edited--but they've been doing just fine w/ 3 guard lineups and really good bigs over the years

btzag
02-14-2017, 10:54 AM
Every team has so-called holes, like Villanova not having the bigs last year to go toe to toe with the other elite teams.

Goshzagit
02-14-2017, 11:19 AM
it's really hard to go back and evaluate how GU played against Iowa State, Florida and Arizona. In my view, this team is just so much better now than it was in late Nov/early Dec. There is so much more cohesion.

We are definitely better yet certainly not healthier.

Our guards are hurting.

Nigel's ankle still nagging him as of today. Also, his neck is receiving daily treatment, & very tense/sore.

Also, Perkins still having back spasms on & off...

The week off b/w end of season & NCAA Tourney will be more than welcomed this time around.

Besides, our staff is better at keeping the guys locked in & engaged during this break.

Our bigs have the normal bumps & bruises, yet our two lead guards are playing through a good amount of pain, esp NWG.

Ridiculously tough.

sittingon50
02-14-2017, 11:20 AM
The Zags currently have 2 guys that fit that prototype SF mold, they just aren't getting minutes--Jones and Hachimura. Similarly to when they had Landri Edi. Interesting to bring up Knight, he was a defensive stopper but his offensive game saw absolutely no development during his time at GU. I saw him several times his Fr. year at UW. I thought he was going to become a star. Not even remotely close as it turned out. I think there's more than ample evidence at this point to say that those prototypical athletic 6-6 to 6-8 SF types just do not emerge from the Gonzaga program. Morrison obviously was one of the most unstoppable offensive forces we'll ever see, but I don't think I'd call him a prototype. Skinner was decent. Guys like Arop and Kong didn't thrive. For whatever reason it's just not a GU thing.

edited--but they've been doing just fine w/ 3 guard lineups and really good bigs over the years

EK had some significant injuries cat, which undoubtedly hindered his progress.

CDC84
02-14-2017, 11:23 AM
Erroll's knees destroyed his career. Remember that time when he took a swim during the Maui Invitational and developed some sort of infection? All sorts of weird crap like that used to happen to him.

rennis
02-14-2017, 11:27 AM
We are definitely better yet certainly not healthier.

Our guards are hurting.

Nigel's ankle still nagging him as of today. Also, his neck is receiving daily treatment, & very tense/sore.

Also, Perkins still having back spasms on & off...


You could see this on the floor against SMC. NWG got burned off the bounce a couple times and it was obvious he was a step slow on defense. And he got bottled-up in the paint a couple times on offense, very unlike him. lateral speed is suffering with his bum ankle(s). He didn't get burned once by SMC in the MAC

I didn't know Josh's back was still bothering him. Hoping both of these guys are healed up by tourney time. Thankfully Melson is bringing it lately.

seacatfan
02-14-2017, 11:27 AM
I've heard many references to Knight's injuries. Based on all the 3's that have gone thru GU since him, I'm not convinced he would've been that much of a factor on offense even if he had stayed healthy.

edited--I don't understand how Knight continued to be so effective as a defender if his knees were totally wrecked. Also he managed to get way up there for some alley oops and tip jams throughout his career.

zagzilla
02-14-2017, 11:37 AM
We need Shooty Wingerson to transfer in for the NCAA's

strikenowhere
02-14-2017, 11:46 AM
The 10 day layoff between the conference tournament and the 1st round of the NCAA tournament may be a blessing in disguise to allow the guys to heal their aches & pains.

sittingon50
02-14-2017, 11:48 AM
We need Shooty Wingerson to transfer in for the NCAA's

Shooter Flatch.

TexasZagFan
02-14-2017, 12:05 PM
Shooter Flatch.

I've always been a fan of Scooter Gonzalez, Speedy's younger brother.

Markburn1
02-14-2017, 12:20 PM
Greenberg is correct. Dhillon Brooks, Josh Jackson, Justin Jackson, Luke Kennard, etc. would all present significant match up problems for the Zags.

However, defensive schemes are rarely limited to one on one match ups. Coach Few and his staff will design a plan that involves being aware of where the most danger lies and which of the other four players on the court can afford to offer help and who cannot. One of the advantages that Few will exploit is the lane clogging ability of his four bigs, especially Karno. Knowing the bigs are back there will allow whoever is guarding one of these elite wings to play much tighter on the perimeter making it more difficult to find clean shots. This scenario is part of the reason for the very good perimeter defense we have seen all year. The coaches will also look for the weakest link in the oppositions guard rotation and instruct the defender guarding that person to help cut off driving lanes, dig down on the post ups and make the weak link take the shots. There is an obvious danger in this because the weaker offensive player might make a couple shots and gain confidence, but the percentages dictate that limiting and harassing the elite wing is the better option. It's unlikely the elite guy will be stopped completely but the idea is to slow him down a bit. Should one of the other players get hot, Few and Company will have to make in game adjustments including employing a zone which we haven't seen much of lately.

Here's the thing. All of the players mentioned above are on very good teams. The Zags will be tested by these types of teams as they get deeper into the tournament. They won't be able to roll teams by twenty like they have done lately precisely because some of their opponents will have guys like these. What matters is finding a way to slow the other team's scoring and forcing them to contend with the firepower that the Zags will throw at them on the other end. I'm confident the Zags are capable of winning these types of games against strong competition that includes elite wings. Probably single digits. But, single digit wins mean you advance to the next round. And that's all that matters.

GonzagasaurusFlex
02-14-2017, 01:07 PM
We are definitely better yet certainly not healthier.

Our guards are hurting.

Nigel's ankle still nagging him as of today. Also, his neck is receiving daily treatment, & very tense/sore.

Also, Perkins still having back spasms on & off...

The week off b/w end of season & NCAA Tourney will be more than welcomed this time around.

Besides, our staff is better at keeping the guys locked in & engaged during this break.

Our bigs have the normal bumps & bruises, yet our two lead guards are playing through a good amount of pain, esp NWG.

Ridiculously tough.

Hope Zags can get NWG rested and healthy. Sit him vs Pacific?

CDC84
02-15-2017, 09:29 AM
It's also worth remembering that GU is not likely to face any of these teams until the elite 8. And by that time.....who knows....maybe Oregon gets upset or whatever. And they all are going to have to contend with ways that Gonzaga can exploit their weaknesses as well. As much as we fans would all love to have a perfect team, there simply isn't one. There never has been.

hondo
02-15-2017, 09:43 AM
Good point CDC.

Hoopaholic
02-15-2017, 11:38 AM
It's also worth remembering that GU is not likely to face any of these teams until the elite 8. And by that time.....who knows....maybe Oregon gets upset or whatever. And they all are going to have to contend with ways that Gonzaga can exploit their weaknesses as well. As much as we fans would all love to have a perfect team, there simply isn't one. There never has been.

UCLA and Indiana might disagree with the notion that a perfect team doesnt exist in college basketball


but I agree with everything else stated