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View Full Version : Who's 3rd in WCC? BYU or ???



Zagger
12-12-2016, 12:40 PM
We enter league play on 12/29 against Pepperdine in McCarthy. (http://www.gozags.com/sports/m-baskbl/sched/gonz-m-baskbl-sched.html) We know the Zags and SMC likely have a lock on #1 and #2 in the WCC. If BYU isn't #3, who is? How do Pacific, San Diego, Portland, others look? Is there a 'sleeper' WCC team that could push BYU out of a third place in the WCC?

bartruff1
12-12-2016, 12:50 PM
I doubt it...but if there is a sleeper, it may be San Francisco...

Kiddwell
12-12-2016, 12:51 PM
...BYU. Hoping something's going on at USF, and their success translates into a lot of WCC wins. So many new WCC coaches bringing in their systems, hardly had time to recruit their guys, etc. Probably have a good idea how well those coaches will do in two, three years. BYU, though, has noteworthy talent, but are young and learning to be a unit. Thought this would be their year to make The Dance (and maybe they still will). Next year, though, Cougars oughta be formidable. If not, think "they (like UWKFC) need a new coach."*

Pepperdine's a bit of a disappointment this year.


:]



<*Not wishing anyone to lose his job. Just D1 b-ball reality.>

ZagsObserver
12-12-2016, 01:04 PM
BYU, and not even close. The BYU you'll see in 2 months will be better than the BYU of today by no small margin. They have a lot of new faces over there.

gonzagafan62
12-12-2016, 01:20 PM
BYU or USF

zagdontzig
12-12-2016, 01:51 PM
If not, think "they (like UWKFC) need a new coach."

I hate saying this, but Dave Rose is a good coach and won't lose his job. BYU's stumbling is largely by virtue of BYU's honor code, a disadvantage in-built in its recruiting power. BYU relies on the occasional start-power of a Fredette coming out of Lone Peak or a Matt Carlino transferring in and being consistent to have real success.

Also, as alluded to below, Kaufusi's return is going to be a problem for us. He's a dirty player, as many of them are, but they seem to get away with it. See Brandon Davies 1-season suspension for consensual sex with his future wife in comparison to Nick Emery 1-game suspension for committing a battery in regulation, punching Brandon Taylor.


BYU, and not even close. The BYU you'll see in 2 months will be better than the BYU of today by no small margin. They have a lot of new faces over there.

maynard g krebs
12-12-2016, 01:51 PM
BYU or USF

Kenpom has BYU at 56, USF at 195, FWIW.

Goshzagit
12-12-2016, 01:53 PM
Sticking by my pre-season prediction:

Gonzaga
BYU
3rd. St Marys

Martin Centre Mad Man
12-12-2016, 01:58 PM
If they aren't the third best team right now, BYU will be the third best team by February. USF has a better record, but the Dons have played a very weak schedule. The Dons' best RPI win was against a 5-4 Lamar team ranked 248 in the RPI. The one game they played against a team in the Top 200 was that loss to EWU. USF's strength of schedule ranks 342.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/rpi/SANFRAN/san-francisco-dons

Portland is probably the best of the others. They have three losses, but losing to Dayton, UCLA, and Colorado is not unexpected for a middle-tier WCC team. They have won the games they should have won. http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/rpi/PORT/portland-pilots

mgadfly
12-12-2016, 02:06 PM
I about puke when I look at USF's strength of schedule (Kenpom: 351st). They are 7-1, but I'd rather be Portland with decent outings against UCLA, Dayton, and Colorado and a 136th ranked SOS.

Kenpom SOS for WCC teams:
1. SMC - 118
2. Portland - 136
3. Pacific - 144
4. Pepperdine - 166
5. Gonzaga - 185
6. BYU - 237
7. LMU - 276
8. USD - 325
9. Broncs - 334
10. USF - 351

I think GU's non-conference SOS will trend up as some of the teams have underperformed. However, when the WCC only gets one team in again we shouldn't blame the committee, but our conference-mates scheduling practices.

sittingon50
12-12-2016, 02:13 PM
I hate saying this, but Dave Rose is a good coach and won't lose his job. BYU's stumbling is largely by virtue of BYU's honor code, a disadvantage in-built in its recruiting power. BYU relies on the occasional start-power of a Fredette coming out of Lone Peak or a Matt Carlino transferring in and being consistent to have real success.

Also, as alluded to below, Kaufusi's return is going to be a problem for us. He's a dirty player, as many of them are, but they seem to get away with it. See Brandon Davies 1-season suspension for consensual sex with his future wife in comparison to Nick Emery 1-game suspension for committing a battery in regulation, punching Brandon Taylor.

Jimmer grew up in N.Y., as I recall.

On the flip side zig, don't you feel that BYU has a built in church advantage, much like Notre Dame? Most of the churches have gyms; kids are playing organized hoops from a young age. Plus those that serve missions are generally graduating at around age 24.

IMO, the younger Kafusi isn't that bad. He came to play hoops. His older brother, however, came to play football & is now in the NFL.

Just some thoughts.

jazzdelmar
12-12-2016, 02:20 PM
I hate saying this, but Dave Rose is a good coach and won't lose his job. BYU's stumbling is largely by virtue of BYU's honor code, a disadvantage in-built in its recruiting power. BYU relies on the occasional start-power of a Fredette coming out of Lone Peak or a Matt Carlino transferring in and being consistent to have real success.

Also, as alluded to below, Kaufusi's return is going to be a problem for us. He's a dirty player, as many of them are, but they seem to get away with it. See Brandon Davies 1-season suspension for consensual sex with his future wife in comparison to Nick Emery 1-game suspension for committing a battery in regulation, punching Brandon Taylor.


Jimmer was from upstate New York, Glens Falls, in the shadow of the Adirondacks. A lovely town north of Saratoga and south of Lake George.

TexasZagFan
12-12-2016, 02:30 PM
I about puke when I look at USF's strength of schedule (Kenpom: 351st). They are 7-1, but I'd rather be Portland with decent outings against UCLA, Dayton, and Colorado and a 136th ranked SOS.

Kenpom SOS for WCC teams:
1. SMC - 118
2. Portland - 136
3. Pacific - 144
4. Pepperdine - 166
5. Gonzaga - 185
6. BYU - 237
7. LMU - 276
8. USD - 325
9. Broncs - 334
10. USF - 351

I think GU's non-conference SOS will trend up as some of the teams have underperformed. However, when the WCC only gets one team in again we shouldn't blame the committee, but our conference-mates scheduling practices.

I think Bryant, Quinnipiac, and Mississippi Valley tanked our SOS, perhaps Utah Valley as well. IMO, adds more importance to winning in Nashville on Sunday. We aren't going to get much help from the lower half of the WCC when it comes to SOS.

I think our OOC has been reasonable this year, considering the turnover of players from last year.

zagdontzig
12-12-2016, 02:39 PM
Jimmer grew up in N.Y., as I recall.

On the flip side zig, don't you feel that BYU has a built in church advantage, much like Notre Dame? Most of the churches have gyms; kids are playing organized hoops from a young age. Plus those that serve missions are generally graduating at around age 24.

IMO, the younger Kafusi isn't that bad. He came to play hoops. His older brother, however, came to play football & is now in the NFL.

Just some thoughts.

Corbin is playing football and will rejoin MBB after the season is over. I think he's athletic, but I also think he uses physicality for what he lacks in talent, and this is dangerous when he gets frustrated against an opponent who's outplaying him, because he starts throwing high elbows and undercutting guys.


Jimmer was from upstate New York, Glens Falls, in the shadow of the Adirondacks. A lovely town north of Saratoga and south of Lake George.

By "a fredette" I meant a typical BYU all-offense-no-defense 2 or a 3, but thank you for the information, I didn't know that.

TravelinZag
12-12-2016, 03:01 PM
Interesting discussion for a slow week, but in the end, who cares? The same WCC will not get, and does not deserve three bids to the dance. Shame that the few competitive teams must share tourney revenues with schools that have no interest in fielding a good team but greedily lamp up the money and use it for something else. GU men's and women's basketball teams would be better off as independents, leaving the non-revenue sports in the WCC. If only larger leagues had not made OOC scheduling so difficult. Zags could compete in any conference; they might not dominate every year, but with multiple bids, would still Dance as often.

sideshow06
12-12-2016, 03:21 PM
Jimmer grew up in N.Y., as I recall.
On the flip side zig, don't you feel that BYU has a built in church advantage, much like Notre Dame? Most of the churches have gyms; kids are playing organized hoops from a young age. Plus those that serve missions are generally graduating at around age 24.

I think they have a national draw that most WCC schools will never have - even Gonzaga. I mean, Gonzaga draws now nationally because it's a great program, and that will always draw talent. BYU draws nationally because if you're a Mormon kid it's somewhat of an "honor" to play for BYU. That's not going to matter to a lot of talented Mormon kids - but enough to draw some decent talent. I think that's more the case for Mormon kids than Catholic kids and ND because there are LOTS of Catholic colleges (like most of the WCC, for example, if that's a draw for you). But BYU is pretty much the only big Mormon college. As a teacher I know a bunch of Mormon students who either want to go there or are jealous if they can't. I think that's at least something of a factor. I also think it explains some of their fans' more annoying tendencies and elitism - but that's a whole other conversation.

Now, what they DO with all that talent is another thing. I think they're perennial underachievers and only occasionally live up to expectations (or the expectations are always unrealistic).

sittingon50
12-12-2016, 04:25 PM
Interesting discussion for a slow week, but in the end, who cares? The same WCC will not get, and does not deserve three bids to the dance. Shame that the few competitive teams must share tourney revenues with schools that have no interest in fielding a good team but greedily lamp up the money and use it for something else. GU men's and women's basketball teams would be better off as independents, leaving the non-revenue sports in the WCC. If only larger leagues had not made OOC scheduling so difficult. Zags could compete in any conference; they might not dominate every year, but with multiple bids, would still Dance as often.

4 new Coaches in the league this year, travelin. I think Smith @ USF & Sendek @ SCU are upgrades. I liked Burns @ Pacific but think Stoudamire's NBA cred will get him kids Mike could not. I really liked Reveno @ Portland, but he couldn't sustain early success. I think Porter has a better chance, but there's something about the school that I just don't get.

I think the WCC will be a lot more competitive in a couple of years.

maynard g krebs
12-12-2016, 04:54 PM
The same WCC will not get, and does not deserve three bids to the dance.

Leagues don't get bids; teams do. If an individual team has enough top 100/top 50 wins and winning percentage in those games, it doesn't matter how many others the league has that do the same. Some years it's a 1 bid league, sometimes 2, occasionally 3. Pac has varied from 1 to 7 in the last 5 years.

IF BYU had beaten 2 of Ut Vly, Valpo and USC, the WCC would be looking like a 3 bid league if each of top 3 got a couple wins v the other 2 and held serve v the 7 dwarves. But they didn't.

GoZags
12-12-2016, 05:53 PM
Jimmer was from upstate New York, Glens Falls, in the shadow of the Adirondacks. A lovely town north of Saratoga and south of Lake George.

Glens Falls .... former home of the Glens Falls White Sox of the AA Eastern League. I saw one of their home games there on my first trip to Cooperstown (it's about 100 miles away). At the time the Mariners AA team was in Lynn, MA (also in the Eastern League).

DixieZag
12-12-2016, 06:49 PM
I was blown away by the beauty of that whole area near Cooperstown.

Our SOS sure isn't helped by the MSVU's etc, but some real poison in AZ, Florida and Seton Hall all falling back a bit, and SDSU lying on their backside looking at no auto bid - though all those teams ('cept maybe SDSU) might rise quickly in their respective conferences.

I only learned that USF was 7-1 a couple days ago, but as I noted in another thread, they go to Hawaii for Christmas and face Utah first, that's quite the test right there. Maybe they can hang with Utah on a neutral court for a while.

I think BYU can beat us once, not likely but possible. I think SMC might now have to beat us 2 out of 3 and go clean through the rest of the WCC or they're right back where they were last year. Portland is the trap game I always worry about and I don't think that changes now that Raveno is gone.

Nevada Don
12-12-2016, 07:05 PM
I think SMC might now have to beat us 2 out of 3 and go clean through the rest of the WCC or they're right back where they were last year.

ANYTHING can happen the rest of the way but I absolutely believe that the Gaels will be in without the need to beat GU 2 out of 3 times.

Hoopaholic
12-12-2016, 07:34 PM
I was blown away by the beauty of that whole area near Cooperstown.

Our SOS sure isn't helped by the MSVU's etc, but some real poison in AZ, Florida and Seton Hall all falling back a bit, and SDSU lying on their backside looking at no auto bid - though all those teams ('cept maybe SDSU) might rise quickly in their respective conferences.

I only learned that USF was 7-1 a couple days ago, but as I noted in another thread, they go to Hawaii for Christmas and face Utah first, that's quite the test right there. Maybe they can hang with Utah on a neutral court for a while.

I think BYU can beat us once, not likely but possible. I think SMC might now have to beat us 2 out of 3 and go clean through the rest of the WCC or they're right back where they were last year. Portland is the trap game I always worry about and I don't think that changes now that Raveno is gone.

Depending on rest of the nation hoop outcome you may be correct about SMC

RenoZag
12-12-2016, 07:50 PM
We'll find out on March 12th if WCC is two-bid league. A lot of hoops to be played between now and then. Injuries, illness, academic issues. . .a lot of stuff can happen over the next 90 days.

DixieZag
12-12-2016, 08:35 PM
ANYTHING can happen the rest of the way but I absolutely believe that the Gaels will be in without the need to beat GU 2 out of 3 times.

Good lord, Don - I'm not saying it would be justice to leave SMC out. I'm not saying they wouldn't "deserve" a bid. I'm just wondering how it would be any different than last year? Seriously, if you don't beat us 2 out of 3, doesn't that leave you w/ at least 3 losses, (obviously we're presuming someone else wins the WCC tourney), and it's more likely than not that someone else clips someone on the way - that's 4 and doesn't it leave commentators saying "Who did they beat?" Nevada might be a good win, Stanford? Dayton? I guess we're a "better" win this year than last, but it would still be one and maybe 2 "ok" wins.

And I'm not saying that our schedule turned out all that special, either - though it certainly seemed less fearful going in and might get better.

I'm not saying any of that. All I'm looking at was being shocked that you got left out last year and it didn't appear to be all that close a call, for either of us had we not won the WCC. So, explain why it's so obvious to you b/c I will feel better - not worse - if I thought you'd get in with 1 win against us.

Nevada Don
12-12-2016, 09:20 PM
Good lord, Don - I'm not saying it would be justice to leave SMC out. I'm not saying they wouldn't "deserve" a bid. I'm just wondering how it would be any different than last year? Seriously, if you don't beat us 2 out of 3, doesn't that leave you w/ at least 3 losses, (obviously we're presuming someone else wins the WCC tourney), and it's more likely than not that someone else clips someone on the way - that's 4 and doesn't it leave commentators saying "Who did they beat?" Nevada might be a good win, Stanford? Dayton? I guess we're a "better" win this year than last, but it would still be one and maybe 2 "ok" wins.

And I'm not saying that our schedule turned out all that special, either - though it certainly seemed less fearful going in and might get better.

I'm not saying any of that. All I'm looking at was being shocked that you got left out last year and it didn't appear to be all that close a call, for either of us had we not won the WCC. So, explain why it's so obvious to you b/c I will feel better - not worse - if I thought you'd get in with 1 win against us.

1) looking back at last year many, many people thought we should have gotten in. This year, last years omission could help.
2) why do you dismiss Dayton and Stanford as decent wins ? What about UAB ? What about having to play GU, a possible Top 5 team and a potential 1-2-3 seed ? Would 2-3 close losses count for something ? I think it would !! Many continue to downplay our OOC schedule and complain that we never traveled.
3) if our OOC schedule sucks so bad, why is our SOS 60 on the RPI and GU 122 ? I am just asking ? I know this crap changes.
4) If we aren't worthy for consideration to make the Dance, why were we #11-#12 in the Nation out of 351 D-1 teams ? Somebody thought SMC was at least decent !! Has ALL THAT CHANGED ? I think the Gaels are going to play pretty well the rest of the way BUT as GU also knows too, anything can change and expectations can become bad memories.
5) SMC has gotten a lot of good press so far this season because of their ranking. I think some of that sticks in peoples minds.
6) some have picked SMC to win the WCC this year. Has SMC played so terrible to change minds ? Won't that be determined on the court?
7) SMC is at the Top of many NCAA team statistical categories. Is that just a mirage that will dissipate over the weeks or will good team numbers translate to wins ?

I am not saying that SMC is a better team than GU. Is it "possible ?" Yes, it's possible. Is it likely ? Probably not. Regardless, I think it's erroneous to speculate that SMC has to beat GU 2-3 times to have a chance to be selected to the NCAA Tourney. As I said, ANYTHING can happen going forward to turn whatever, good or bad around. Would it make any sense for me to say right now, that GU is going to have a "tough go" getting into the Dance if it fails to beat Saint Mary's 2 out of 3 ??? Is your OOC so much tougher than SMC (yes) that it will propel GU into the Dance regardless?

Knock-down as many points above as you wish. I still feel that knowing what we currently know now, I find it very hard for someone to say that SMC has to beat GU 2 times to get into the Dance.

ps I hope you are incorrect and that I am finally right for once.

DixieZag
12-12-2016, 09:44 PM
1) looking back at last year many, many people thought we should have gotten in. This year, last years omission could help.
2) why do you dismiss Dayton and Stanford as decent wins ? What about UAB ? What about having to play GU, a possible Top 5 team and a potential 1-2-3 seed ? Would 2-3 close losses count for something ? I think it would !! Many continue to downplay our OOC schedule and complain that we never traveled.
3) if our OOC schedule sucks so bad, why is our SOS 60 on the RPI and GU 122 ? I am just asking ? I know this crap changes.
4) If we aren't worthy for consideration to make the Dance, why were we #11-#12 in the Nation out of 351 D-1 teams ? Somebody thought SMC was at least decent !! Has ALL THAT CHANGED ? I think the Gaels are going to play pretty well the rest of the way BUT as GU also knows too, anything can change and expectations can become bad memories.
5) SMC has gotten a lot of good press so far this season because of their ranking. I think some of that sticks in peoples minds.
6) some have picked SMC to win the WCC this year. Has SMC played so terrible to change minds ? Won't that be determined on the court?
7) SMC is at the Top of many NCAA team statistical categories. Is that just a mirage that will dissipate over the weeks or will good team numbers translate to wins ?

I am not saying that SMC is a better team than GU. Is it "possible ?" Yes, it's possible. Is it likely ? Probably not. Regardless, I think it's erroneous to speculate that SMC has to beat GU 2-3 times to have a chance to be selected to the NCAA Tourney. As I said, ANYTHING can happen going forward to turn whatever, good or bad around. Would it make any sense for me to say right now, that GU is going to have a "tough go" getting into the Dance if it fails to beat Saint Mary's 2 out of 3 ??? Is your OOC so much tougher than SMC (yes) that it will propel GU into the Dance regardless?

Knock-down as many points above as you wish. I still feel that knowing what we currently know now, I find it very hard for someone to say that SMC has to beat GU 2 times to get into the Dance.

ps I hope you are incorrect and that I am finally right for once.

I am not the one you have to defend the wins against, the committee notorious for shutting out the smaller conferences - including you last year - who will likely question those, and I guess that will all get worked out. The committee looks at number of top 25 and top 50 wins, and I did acknowledge that beating us this year (as opposed to last) would count as a bigger win.

I think the positive press might help, whether the committee acknowledges it or not, and I said that our schedule didn't add up to what we might have thought - though it could well improve RPI and SOS as the BCS teams move to conference. I don't know as much as many around here, so all I will say is that I hope you're right (if the situation is you win 1 of 3) b/c I do want you in the tourney.

gonzagafan62
12-12-2016, 10:03 PM
ANYTHING can happen the rest of the way but I absolutely believe that the Gaels will be in without the need to beat GU 2 out of 3 times.

I think so too actually. I remember dellys senior year and SMC got in without beating GU at all. I think they'd have to win at least once though.

Hoopaholic
12-12-2016, 10:10 PM
1) looking back at last year many, many people thought we should have gotten in. This year, last years omission could help.
2) why do you dismiss Dayton and Stanford as decent wins ? What about UAB ? What about having to play GU, a possible Top 5 team and a potential 1-2-3 seed ? Would 2-3 close losses count for something ? I think it would !! Many continue to downplay our OOC schedule and complain that we never traveled.
3) if our OOC schedule sucks so bad, why is our SOS 60 on the RPI and GU 122 ? I am just asking ? I know this crap changes.
4) If we aren't worthy for consideration to make the Dance, why were we #11-#12 in the Nation out of 351 D-1 teams ? Somebody thought SMC was at least decent !! Has ALL THAT CHANGED ? I think the Gaels are going to play pretty well the rest of the way BUT as GU also knows too, anything can change and expectations can become bad memories.
5) SMC has gotten a lot of good press so far this season because of their ranking. I think some of that sticks in peoples minds.
6) some have picked SMC to win the WCC this year. Has SMC played so terrible to change minds ? Won't that be determined on the court?
7) SMC is at the Top of many NCAA team statistical categories. Is that just a mirage that will dissipate over the weeks or will good team numbers translate to wins ?

I am not saying that SMC is a better team than GU. Is it "possible ?" Yes, it's possible. Is it likely ? Probably not. Regardless, I think it's erroneous to speculate that SMC has to beat GU 2-3 times to have a chance to be selected to the NCAA Tourney. As I said, ANYTHING can happen going forward to turn whatever, good or bad around. Would it make any sense for me to say right now, that GU is going to have a "tough go" getting into the Dance if it fails to beat Saint Mary's 2 out of 3 ??? Is your OOC so much tougher than SMC (yes) that it will propel GU into the Dance regardless?

Knock-down as many points above as you wish. I still feel that knowing what we currently know now, I find it very hard for someone to say that SMC has to beat GU 2 times to get into the Dance.

ps I hope you are incorrect and that I am finally right for once.


If we lose 2 out of 3 meetings and the second loss is WCC championship we will be on the bubble and the edge of our seats to see if we get in the dance IMO.

gonzagafan62
12-12-2016, 10:32 PM
If we lose 2 out of 3 meetings and the second loss is WCC championship we will be on the bubble and the edge of our seats to see if we get in the dance IMO.

Unless we tank against The rest of WCC and lose some games we shouldn't i don't see this as a possibility. I'm actually warming up to SMCs road wins. That's two more than us although we have more neutral wins than that. Those two road games aren't easy especially Dayton.

According to ken Pom Dayton is #39 and Stanford is #69. It's not easy to get top 100 wins on the road and st Mary's has got two of them. They had two top 50 wins last year both against us and barely missed. If Stanford sneaks into tourney and the top 50 (which is possible) and wins against Gonzaga once they're in imo especially with the hype they have.

Gonzaga also has 5 top 100 wins. If they beat Tennessee and saint Mary's once and sweep BYU or hell even split that gives them at least 7. You don't leave out preseason top 25 teams that are 7-3 vs top 100

Nevada Don
12-12-2016, 11:19 PM
I am not the one you have to defend the wins against,

But you asked me !! I was perfectly content, contemplating pouring myself 2 fingers of Jameson's Rare Vintages, but nooo !! I had to try an put together a few comprehensive sentences (I think I failed).

Next time you want to ask me for a response, instead, pretend you did ask and pretend that I fully answered. In the meantime, I will be savoring my Jameson's, wishing that I had a few of you guys with me to share in it.

Zagger
12-13-2016, 03:35 AM
1) looking back at last year many, many people thought we should have gotten in. This year, last years omission could help.
2) why do you dismiss Dayton and Stanford as decent wins ? What about UAB ? What about having to play GU, a possible Top 5 team and a potential 1-2-3 seed ? Would 2-3 close losses count for something ? I think it would !! Many continue to downplay our OOC schedule and complain that we never traveled.
3) if our OOC schedule sucks so bad, why is our SOS 60 on the RPI and GU 122 ? I am just asking ? I know this crap changes.
4) If we aren't worthy for consideration to make the Dance, why were we #11-#12 in the Nation out of 351 D-1 teams ? Somebody thought SMC was at least decent !! Has ALL THAT CHANGED ? I think the Gaels are going to play pretty well the rest of the way BUT as GU also knows too, anything can change and expectations can become bad memories.
5) SMC has gotten a lot of good press so far this season because of their ranking. I think some of that sticks in peoples minds.
6) some have picked SMC to win the WCC this year. Has SMC played so terrible to change minds ? Won't that be determined on the court?
7) SMC is at the Top of many NCAA team statistical categories. Is that just a mirage that will dissipate over the weeks or will good team numbers translate to wins ?

I am not saying that SMC is a better team than GU. Is it "possible ?" Yes, it's possible. Is it likely ? Probably not. Regardless, I think it's erroneous to speculate that SMC has to beat GU 2-3 times to have a chance to be selected to the NCAA Tourney. As I said, ANYTHING can happen going forward to turn whatever, good or bad around. Would it make any sense for me to say right now, that GU is going to have a "tough go" getting into the Dance if it fails to beat Saint Mary's 2 out of 3 ??? Is your OOC so much tougher than SMC (yes) that it will propel GU into the Dance regardless?

Knock-down as many points above as you wish. I still feel that knowing what we currently know now, I find it very hard for someone to say that SMC has to beat GU 2 times to get into the Dance.

ps I hope you are incorrect and that I am finally right for once.

Good points on SMC. I know I'm sure happy that our first game against the Gaels is in McCarthy rather than at SMC.

GoZags
12-13-2016, 05:55 AM
Good points on SMC. I know I'm sure happy that our first game against the Gaels is in McCarthy rather than at SMC.

Yeah ... but SMC at GU game is still being played at the tail end of Christmas break (before the dorms re-open).... so the "home court" advantage won't be with the students there.

bartruff1
12-13-2016, 06:07 AM
Intuitively that would be a disadvantage ....but given GU's record in the Kennel against the WCC, does it in fact make any difference if the students are on break or not ?

GoZags
12-13-2016, 06:24 AM
Intuitively that would be a disadvantage ....but given GU's record in the Kennel against the WCC, does it in fact make any difference if the students are on break or not ?

Put it this way ... last year's home loss to the Gaels came with the student section in full force. The fact of the matter is the only students who truly have to be there, and who HAVE to bring their "A" game are the kids on the basketball team.

zagdontzig
12-13-2016, 01:11 PM
I think they have a national draw that most WCC schools will never have - even Gonzaga. I mean, Gonzaga draws now nationally because it's a great program, and that will always draw talent. BYU draws nationally because if you're a Mormon kid it's somewhat of an "honor" to play for BYU. That's not going to matter to a lot of talented Mormon kids - but enough to draw some decent talent. I think that's more the case for Mormon kids than Catholic kids and ND because there are LOTS of Catholic colleges (like most of the WCC, for example, if that's a draw for you). But BYU is pretty much the only big Mormon college. As a teacher I know a bunch of Mormon students who either want to go there or are jealous if they can't. I think that's at least something of a factor. I also think it explains some of their fans' more annoying tendencies and elitism - but that's a whole other conversation.

Now, what they DO with all that talent is another thing. I think they're perennial underachievers and only occasionally live up to expectations (or the expectations are always unrealistic).

They're national LDS draw is strong, but talent-capped. Think Frank Jackson and Jabari Parker.

seacatfan
12-13-2016, 01:55 PM
They're national LDS draw is strong, but talent-capped. Think Frank Jackson and Jabari Parker.

Ouch! They get their pick of LDS kids...unless Duke comes calling. Hard to argue with that. I would guess Univ. of Utah would give them a run for their money on some recruits, although I don't follow it close enough to know if they have many head to head battles.

Martin Centre Mad Man
12-13-2016, 02:23 PM
Intuitively that would be a disadvantage ....but given GU's record in the Kennel against the WCC, does it in fact make any difference if the students are on break or not ?

I don't think the MAC has ever hosted a WCC opponent as good as these Gaels.

gonzagafan62
12-13-2016, 02:31 PM
I don't think the MAC has ever hosted a WCC opponent as good as these Gaels.

I disagree.

ZagsObserver
12-13-2016, 02:49 PM
The only way SMC needs to beat GU twice to make the tourney is if they slip up more than twice to wcc bottom feeders (assuming they beat GU once). If GU sweeps, I think they only get one pass.

Bogozags
12-13-2016, 05:58 PM
Jimmer grew up in N.Y., as I recall.

On the flip side zig, don't you feel that BYU has a built in church advantage, much like Notre Dame? Most of the churches have gyms; kids are playing organized hoops from a young age. Plus those that serve missions are generally graduating at around age 24.

IMO, the younger Kafusi isn't that bad. He came to play hoops. His older brother, however, came to play football & is now in the NFL.

Just some thoughts.

50
As you stated, the younger Kafusi is a basketball player...he doesn't play "dirty" but rather is physical but clean...he has really improved from his freshman year and now is a junior playing football but will return after BYU's bowl game...

I think BYU will be formidable in WCC play and could make the Dance...

mgadfly
12-13-2016, 09:01 PM
Every year the number of at-large bids assigned to non-power conferences shrinks. If the WCC ends up with a SOS of 14-16 range instead of 9 to 11 like they have been in recent years, then any team without an automatic bid, regardless of how many wins they have, will be sweating it out on selection Sunday.

I don't think it is right, but when you are dividing up 3 at-large bids for the bottom 20 conferences and letting power conference schools with .500 league records and 65-70 RPI into the dance, someone is getting stood up. How quick we all appear to forget what the committee did last year with every single tie being given to a major conference team over deserving squads like SMC.

TexasZagFan
12-14-2016, 08:43 AM
Every year the number of at-large bids assigned to non-power conferences shrinks. If the WCC ends up with a SOS of 14-16 range instead of 9 to 11 like they have been in recent years, then any team without an automatic bid, regardless of how many wins they have, will be sweating it out on selection Sunday.

I don't think it is right, but when you are dividing up 3 at-large bids for the bottom 20 conferences and letting power conference schools with .500 league records and 65-70 RPI into the dance, someone is getting stood up. How quick we all appear to forget what the committee did last year with every single tie being given to a major conference team over deserving squads like SMC.

No, it's not right, and that's where the WCC Commissioner has to exert some leadership and direction. Based on my rough calculations, total WCC monies from 2016 to 2020 to be received from the NCAA tournament are:

2016 - 6,400,000
2017 - 5,866,667
2018 - 5,333,333
2019 - 4,800,000
2020 - 3,733,333

2019 & 2020 are an estimate, based on only two games this year, and one bid next year...I'm being conservative.

I don't know how big a cut goes to the Commissioner's office, but if the funds are allocated equally to the schools, each school will receive anywhere from $250K to $500K every year for the next five years. That could go a long way to improving training facilities, recruiting budgets, etc.

GU, BYU, and SMC are at a disadvantage if the other schools apply those funds outside of their basketball programs. About the only leverage the Commissioner has is in the allocation of those funds, and a stronger conference is good for all, i.e. more bids to the NCAA.

BTW, take a look at the Commissioner's Cup for last year, and three schools dominated across the board: BYU, SMC, and GU.

gonzagafan62
12-14-2016, 10:01 AM
Back to the scheduling though.... there's a lot of games that could be played against better competition for both zags AND SMC. Adding to the conference BYU was cool but remember that took away some of our "play anyone anywhere mentality because of the need for some home games. I believe it would've helped too if we didn't add Pacific. That's then four games you can't play against talent around the country. I bet if we didn't have these two teams in our conference we'd see more games against Tennessee Memphis and UCLA. We can't just be on the road all year

bartruff1
12-14-2016, 10:07 AM
West Georgia....Utah Valley....Bryant.....Quinnipiac..... Mississippi Valley

TexasZagFan
12-14-2016, 10:11 AM
Back to the scheduling though.... there's a lot of games that could be played against better competition for both zags AND SMC. Adding to the conference BYU was cool but remember that took away some of our "play anyone anywhere mentality because of the need for some home games. I believe it would've helped too if we didn't add Pacific. That's then four games you can't play against talent around the country. I bet if we didn't have these two teams in our conference we'd see more games against Tennessee Memphis and UCLA. We can't just be on the road all year

Adding Pacific was a complete disaster, although we can hope that Stoudamire can turn the program around.

TexasZagFan
12-14-2016, 10:13 AM
West Georgia....Utah Valley....Bryant.....Quinnipiac..... Mississippi Valley

That's part of the problem with an 18 game conference schedule. Your OOC options are limited. Given the turnover of players from last year to this year, these pay-for-play games were needed, rather than the OOC gauntlets we've been used to in the past.

It's not helping us that Florida, Iowa State, and Washington are off to slow starts.