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jazzdelmar
12-06-2016, 08:33 AM
Collins stats are amazing. In less than half a game (17 mins per) he is averaging 11 points and 6 rebs and is shooting 70% from the field overall. Just saying.


OFFICIAL NCAA STATS (http://stats.ncaa.org/player/index?game_sport_year_ctl_id=12480&stats_player_seq=1844647.0)

ZagsObserver
12-06-2016, 08:47 AM
Very similar to Sabonis's stats his freshman year. I would expect 2 seasons before the NBA comes calling

Zagdawg
12-06-2016, 08:55 AM
He is doing well and developing -- good thing he gets to develop behind a great instructor like Karnowski (one of the best passing big men in college basketball-- 3rd in assists behind our 2 point guards)-- no pressure and solid coaching to help move him along.

Due to Collins youth his best games/stat stuffing has taken place against Mississippi Valley State, Quinnipac, Bryant and San Diego State -- but he will get there against some of the better competition as he continues to develop through the year.

Coach Crazy
12-06-2016, 09:25 AM
Very similar to Sabonis's stats his freshman year. I would expect 2 seasons before the NBA comes calling

Right now he is producing at a higher efficiency. But it's nearly a 5 minute difference in minutes played, with Sabonis getting more run. So, who knows how things would look with 5 more minutes playing into the formula?

Zach is special. If he doesn't go in the draft this year, then he's probably a lotto pick next. Unless he decides he wants to stay.


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Coach Crazy
12-06-2016, 09:38 AM
He is doing well and developing -- good thing he gets to develop behind a great instructor like Karnowski (one of the best passing big men in college basketball-- 3rd in assists behind our 2 point guards)-- no pressure and solid coaching to help move him along.

Due to Collins youth his best games/stat stuffing has taken place against Mississippi Valley State, Quinnipac, Bryant and San Diego State -- but he will get there against some of the better competition as he continues to develop through the year.

Two of his three best games were against SDSU and ISU. I'll take that. SDSU is still at a much higher level of competition than MVSU, Quinnipiac, and Bryant.

He's going to feast on WCC play. Seriously. His ORtg, DRtg, PER, and BPM could get higher. That's nuts.

From an efficiency/advanced stats perspective, he could be end up with the greatest freshman season in the history of the program. That's what we're looking at, here. We'll see where he is after the remainder of the OOC. If he's above 130 for an ORtg, below 90 for DRtg after the OOC...then I'll be interested to see if that climbs into the 140's and drops below the 85 mark.


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WallaWallaZag
12-06-2016, 09:42 AM
Right now he is producing at a higher efficiency. But it's nearly a 5 minute difference in minutes played, with Sabonis getting more run. So, who knows how things would look with 5 more minutes playing into the formula?

Zach is special. If he doesn't go in the draft this year, then he's probably a lotto pick next. Unless he decides he wants to stay.

few has already given collins the green light to shoot from the perimeter whenever he's open...same with tillie. sabonis didn't take any shots outside the paint his freshman year.

MontanaCoyote
12-06-2016, 09:46 AM
He is doing well and developing -- good thing he gets to develop behind a great instructor like Karnowski (one of the best passing big men in college basketball-- 3rd in assists behind our 2 point guards)-- no pressure and solid coaching to help move him along.

Due to Collins youth his best games/stat stuffing has taken place against Mississippi Valley State, Quinnipac, Bryant and San Diego State -- but he will get there against some of the better competition as he continues to develop through the year.

Right On! "Coach Karnowski" Just one of the many reasons that (as I've been sayin') No other player n D-1 is as valuable to his team in some many different ways than Karno. Coach Karno. I like it.

mattydog73
12-06-2016, 12:43 PM
my .02

Collins is doing very well, but if you think it is all due to his individual play you are missing a key factor. The vast majority of minutes Collins plays are with Tillie on the floor. Killian, is a natural and intuitive on both defense and offense. Also, he is very good at spacing the floor, stretching the defense and opening up opportunities for Collins to score and rebound. Take a look at their Roland average's and you will find they outperform all other players with any amount of significant minutes played.

My point being, Zach is great, but there is more to the gaudy numbers. Certainly an amazing player but an even better tandem that will only become more lethal as the year goes on.

jazzdelmar
12-06-2016, 12:49 PM
my .02

Collins is doing very well, but if you think it is all due to his individual play you are missing a key factor. The vast majority of minutes Collins plays are with Tillie on the floor. Killian, is a natural and intuitive on both defense and offense. Also, he is very good at spacing the floor, stretching the defense and opening up opportunities for Collins to score and rebound. Take a look at their Roland average's and you will find they outperform all other players with any amount of significant minutes played.

My point being, Zach is great, but there is more to the gaudy numbers. Certainly an amazing player but an even better tandem that will only become more lethal as the year goes on.

This seems like a completely unnecessary caveat. Even MJ needed help. Collins is the best frosh GU has ever had, as the coach that is crazy concedes. Enjoy him while you can and yes he will shred most of the Wcc, though even I think he will be tested by Val Kilmer and Landale.

MDABE80
12-06-2016, 12:52 PM
I hope we hang onto him. My opinion is that he needs another year or two but if he blows up in the more visible games and continues to expand his numbers, I don't see us hanging on to him. Super kid, great athlete, tough competitor. Great family. Everything you could want in a kid.......and now comes the numbers. He's a super frosh. The country hasn't seen enough of him just yet. When they do,.......

rennis
12-06-2016, 12:55 PM
Agree with what others are saying, his offensive potential is as high as any player we've seen at GU. What hasn't been said, and what I think will land him in the NBA far sooner than any of us will want, is his shot blocking ability. He has had some very timely shot blocks (on limited minutes.) That is the combo of stuff scouts get real excited about.

mattydog73
12-06-2016, 03:28 PM
This seems like a completely unnecessary caveat. Even MJ needed help. Collins is the best frosh GU has ever had, as the coach that is crazy concedes. Enjoy him while you can and yes he will shred most of the Wcc, though even I think he will be tested by Val Kilmer and Landale.

It's just a fact pal. Unnecessary is the majority of what you post.

jazzdelmar
12-06-2016, 03:39 PM
It's just a fact pal. Unnecessary is the majority of what you post.

Why the completely unnecessary overreaction, pal?

MDABE80
12-06-2016, 03:39 PM
It's just a fact pal. Unnecessary is the majority of what you post.

Easy there. Jazz is a very valued part of the community . You/me may not agree with :)what he says but he's usually correct. Lots typed here is unnecessary. It's part of the joys of a message board.:)

ProVeeZag
12-06-2016, 03:50 PM
These petty arguments remind me of when my brother and I were kids (6 and 4 yrs old) riding in the back seat during our annual 400 miles drive to Minneapolis for summer vacation. Brother would tap me on the shoulder and say "Touched you". I'd return the jab and say "touched you back". This would go on for a couple of minutes. Then Dad pulled the car over on the side of the road and threatened to make us walk. I guess the question is: Which one of you is the 4 yr old?

ZenZag
12-06-2016, 03:55 PM
This seems like a completely unnecessary caveat. Even MJ needed help. Collins is the best frosh GU has ever had, as the coach that is crazy concedes. Enjoy him while you can and yes he will shred most of the Wcc, though even I think he will be tested by Val Kilmer and Landale.

I appreciated the insight that Tillie may help to amplify Collins' numbers by stretching the floor and opening up the paint. I think this was unnecessarily dismissive of another poster's opinion...that kind of stuff stifles an open exchange of ideas.

ZagMan in Philly
12-06-2016, 06:00 PM
This needs a video
http://www.ncaa.com/video/basketball-men/2016-12-06/mbk-newcomer-spotlight-mens-basketball-zach-collins-gonzaga

Hoopaholic
12-06-2016, 06:03 PM
These petty arguments remind me of when my brother and I were kids (6 and 4 yrs old) riding in the back seat during our annual 400 miles drive to Minneapolis for summer vacation. Brother would tap me on the shoulder and say "Touched you". I'd return the jab and say "touched you back". This would go on for a couple of minutes. Then Dad pulled the car over on the side of the road and threatened to make us walk. I guess the question is: Which one of you is the 4 yr old?

Are we brothers?

ProVeeZag
12-06-2016, 06:14 PM
Are we brothers?

STEVE??

GrizZAG
12-07-2016, 05:59 AM
Are we brothers?

Perfect! 😜

LongIslandZagFan
12-07-2016, 07:40 AM
Next year is the Collins-Tille show... and it will be glorious. Collins will be on the pre-season Wooden list most likely. Gotta think with serious minutes he will be a lottery pick at the end of next season.

jazzdelmar
12-07-2016, 07:53 AM
Next year is the Collins-Tille show... and it will be glorious. Collins will be on the pre-season Wooden list most likely. Gotta think with serious minutes he will be a lottery pick at the end of next season.

All due respect LIZF, you're whistling thru the graveyard. One VIP on this very board puts Collins leaving at 80-20.....We'd be lucky to have Til for two.

LongIslandZagFan
12-07-2016, 08:06 AM
All due respect LIZF, you're whistling thru the graveyard. One VIP on this very board puts Collins leaving at 80-20.....We'd be lucky to have Til for two.

Heard similar things about others... like Sabonis. I think he needs to bulk up just a smidge and if he wants to be a lottery... he'll wait a year. BTW... no credible mock draft has him in either round.

jazzdelmar
12-07-2016, 08:07 AM
Heard similar things about others... like Sabonis. I think he needs to bulk up just a smidge and if he wants to be a lottery... he'll wait a year.

Your mouth to God's ears, LIZF....Happy holidays......

zagsfanforlife
12-07-2016, 08:11 AM
Next year is the Collins-Tille show... and it will be glorious. Collins will be on the pre-season Wooden list most likely. Gotta think with serious minutes he will be a lottery pick at the end of next season.

And NWG, Perkins, Williams, stud Rui, Norvell, melson, kispert and wade show

vandalzag
12-07-2016, 08:16 AM
All due respect LIZF, you're whistling thru the graveyard. One VIP on this very board puts Collins leaving at 80-20.....We'd be lucky to have Til for two.

Collins may declare but leaving would be another thing. The draft this year is way deeper than last year. Lots of variables to play out, such as Karno staying healthy and continuing to play better which will limit Zach's ability to showcase. Do not expect him to stay 3 years, but 2 based upon the current situation would be a conservative bet. That being said lots of time between now and June.

vandalzag
12-07-2016, 08:17 AM
It's just a fact pal. Unnecessary is the majority of what you post.

Jazz for the record this was not me

jazzdelmar
12-07-2016, 08:25 AM
Jazz for the record this was not me

I hear thee. Not your distinctive voice. Happy holidays.

Baseline
12-07-2016, 08:32 AM
If GU makes a deep run and gets to the FF, Collins will get all the exposure he needs to get n the lottery list.

LongIslandZagFan
12-07-2016, 08:33 AM
If GU makes a deep run and gets to the FF, Collins will get all the exposure he needs to get n the lottery list.

He is already in mock lottery slots... in 2018. This draft is way too deep.

CdAZagFan
12-07-2016, 08:37 AM
All due respect LIZF, you're whistling thru the graveyard. One VIP on this very board puts Collins leaving at 80-20.....We'd be lucky to have Til for two.

I got thinking about this and was trying to remember another "bench" player that left for the NBA after one year. It may have happened at Kentucky or Duke, but I can't recall... Anyone?

jazzdelmar
12-07-2016, 08:41 AM
I got thinking about this and was trying to remember another "bench" player that left for the NBA after one year. It may have happened at Kentucky or Duke, but I can't recall... Anyone?

Marvin Williams from Washington who went to North Carolina.

amaronizag
12-07-2016, 08:46 AM
"bench" player that left for the NBA after one year
Closest case I can remember was freshman Kyrie Irving who sat on the bench at Duke for the last 3/4 of the season due to injury, returned for a couple of games in the NCAA tourney, and was drafted #1. Other than that, I can't think of anyone off hand.

Dion Waiters was drafted after sitting on the bench at Syracuse but he was a Junior.

Zag_Dad
12-07-2016, 08:49 AM
I got thinking about this and was trying to remember another "bench" player that left for the NBA after one year. It may have happened at Kentucky or Duke, but I can't recall... Anyone?

Joel Embiid

gonstu
12-07-2016, 09:22 AM
If GU makes a deep run and gets to the FF, Collins will get all the exposure he needs to get n the lottery list.

This. If GU gets bounced by Seton Hall last year and Sabonis doesn't play like he did - maybe he's still a zag right now. Lots of exposure to be had in March - particularly later in March. And if Zags are still playing in April? And Collins is a big part of the rotation? Not ruling out the possibility this is the only year with Collins. Would be too bad for us though because next year he would be THE MAN - down low at least. From what I've seen so far, no more than 2 years as a zag.

seacatfan
12-07-2016, 09:36 AM
I got thinking about this and was trying to remember another "bench" player that left for the NBA after one year. It may have happened at Kentucky or Duke, but I can't recall... Anyone?

Corey Maggette at Duke quite a few years ago was another one.

zagamatic
12-07-2016, 09:44 AM
It's pretty simple math, if we have another typical NCAA tournament but get bounced before the Final Four, then Collins stays given how deep this year's draft is no matter how well he tests at the combine because there will be others who test as good. But if we make our first Final Four and Zach is a big part of it,then he stands out against the rest. Either way, I think that he makes better money in next year's draft.

Zagdawg
12-07-2016, 09:49 AM
He is going to have the Nike tournament next year to showcase his skills along with our trip to MSG next year to really have a great opportunity to jump up the draft board.

Ekrub
12-07-2016, 09:55 AM
Kentucky had 6 people drafted in 2012...

Coach Crazy
12-07-2016, 12:41 PM
He's better than Ivan Rabb, Marques Bolden, Bam Adebayo, and Tyler Lydon. That will play out for the duration of the season.

Doesn't matter if he's on a mock draft, right now. When the rubber has to hit the road, scouts, gm's, and other league exec's aren't going to look past this freshman. Whether he'll be a lotto or not has yet to be seen based on perception. But he's already a lottery pick-quality player.


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seacatfan
12-07-2016, 02:15 PM
He's better than Ivan Rabb, Marques Bolden, Bam Adebayo, and Tyler Lydon. That will play out for the duration of the season.


Whoa there! I might give you the others, but Rabb has been destroying people. Not sure about that one. Has Bolden even played yet?

nish_mode
12-07-2016, 04:19 PM
He's moved up to #19 on the 2018 Draft Express mock and top 10 in the nbadraft.net mock.

jazzdelmar
12-07-2016, 04:29 PM
He's moved up to #19 on the 2018 Draft Express mock and top 10 in the nbadraft.net mock.

We've only just begun.

gonstu
12-07-2016, 04:33 PM
He's moved up to #19 on the 2018 Draft Express mock and top 10 in the nbadraft.net mock.

d'oh!

zagsfanforlife
12-07-2016, 05:11 PM
I think you guys freaking out about him leaving this early are out of touch with how strong this years draft class is. Unless ZC is hoping to be drafted around #20 this year (which is a possibility based on potential), he has an actual chance to be top 10 if he comes out after the 2018 season.

As for NWG.. unless he will want to be pick #40 or below, he isnt coming out after this year either.

zagsfanforlife
12-07-2016, 05:13 PM
Whoa there! I might give you the others, but Rabb has been destroying people. Not sure about that one. Has Bolden even played yet?

An athletic big being picked off of potential has a much better chance of getting drafted higher if he plays on Duke or Kentucky rather than Gonzaga.

zag67
12-07-2016, 06:18 PM
I believe that NWG will test the waters and then if he wants to leave this year will probably go overseas. if not I think that he and Collins will both go next year. the Nike tournament and MSG plus a run in March will gets them known for going in the draft. I would love to see them come back but I will wish them the best in any choice they make. We are going to have a fun run for the next few years and I hope to see us grow from there.

btzag
12-07-2016, 06:27 PM
An athletic big being picked off of potential has a much better chance of getting drafted higher if he plays on Duke or Kentucky rather than Gonzaga.

Exactly. Gonzaga has never had a 1 and done let alone a non-starter 1 and done. Would be shocked if he leaves after this year. Also would be just as shocked if he did not declare after next year. That's my prediction; national stardom next year on all those big stages and then lottery!

Hoopaholic
12-07-2016, 10:33 PM
Exactly. Gonzaga has never had a 1 and done let alone a non-starter 1 and done. Would be shocked if he leaves after this year. Also would be just as shocked if he did not declare after next year. That's my prediction; national stardom next year on all those big stages and then lottery!

Agree

Zagceo
12-08-2016, 05:03 AM
Exactly. Gonzaga has never had a 1 and done let alone a non-starter 1 and done. Would be shocked if he leaves after this year. Also would be just as shocked if he did not declare after next year. That's my prediction; national stardom next year on all those big stages and then lottery!

Domas was coming off the bench last year....until Przemek went down. Most didn't think Domas would turn pro last year before the start of conference play. Don't recall hearing about scouts being excited about Domas 8 games into last season.

Just saying......don't be surprised.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Zach-Collins-7303/

Coach Crazy
12-08-2016, 05:23 AM
Whoa there! I might give you the others, but Rabb has been destroying people. Not sure about that one. Has Bolden even played yet?

I'm willing to listen to a cogent argument. For the minutes he plays, he is not as efficient as Zach.


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jazzdelmar
12-08-2016, 06:11 AM
Right now, due to more opportunity, TJ Leaf is performing above Collins so watching Leaf's 2017 lottery prospects is a good barometer of Zach's.

SWZag
12-08-2016, 09:11 AM
I had to watch this several times over. Twitter Video - Collins Block (https://twitter.com/ZagMBB/status/806759417165160450)

Shows how much stronger Collins is than Fultz.

maynard g krebs
12-08-2016, 11:46 AM
Right now, due to more opportunity, TJ Leaf is performing above Collins so watching Leaf's 2017 lottery prospects is a good barometer of Zach's.

Leaf had like 13 rebounds against Kentucky, and scored with relative ease v their shot blockers. Collins was having rebounds taken away from him by the Huskies. Collins may have more potential, but Leaf's more mature/developed at this point.

seacatfan
12-08-2016, 01:57 PM
Domas was coming off the bench last year....until Przemek went down. Most didn't think Domas would turn pro last year before the start of conference play. Don't recall hearing about scouts being excited about Domas 8 games into last season.

Just saying......don't be surprised.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Zach-Collins-7303/

Don't you think Sabonis moving into the starting lineup after Karno's injury had a lot to do with his rise in the draft boards? We'll never know, but if not for PK's injury Sabonis might still be a Zag right now.

seacatfan
12-08-2016, 01:58 PM
Leaf had like 13 rebounds against Kentucky, and scored with relative ease v their shot blockers. Collins was having rebounds taken away from him by the Huskies. Collins may have more potential, but Leaf's more mature/developed at this point.

It was only 1 game, but Collins had very little impact last night against one of the worst defensive teams they'll face all season.

Zagceo
12-08-2016, 03:33 PM
Don't you think Sabonis moving into the starting lineup after Karno's injury had a lot to do with his rise in the draft boards? We'll never know, but if not for PK's injury Sabonis might still be a Zag right now.

Maybe......but maybe the cake was already baked because a GM already had eyes on Sabonis and his potential.

GonzagasaurusFlex
12-08-2016, 03:55 PM
Leaf had like 13 rebounds against Kentucky, and scored with relative ease v their shot blockers. Collins was having rebounds taken away from him by the Huskies. Collins may have more potential, but Leaf's more mature/developed at this point.

Agree with you Maynard

CdAZagFan
12-08-2016, 11:18 PM
Just don't see Collins leaving after this year - unless he somehow works his way into the starting lineup, plays major minutes and makes an impact late in the season (i.e. Sabonis).

ProVeeZag
12-08-2016, 11:46 PM
Leaf had like 13 rebounds against Kentucky, and scored with relative ease v their shot blockers. Collins was having rebounds taken away from him by the Huskies. Collins may have more potential, but Leaf's more mature/developed at this point.

Losing rebounds is something Zach needs to work on, will no doubt improve as his body hardens and he packs on more muscle. It's also a quickness issue, oftentimes smaller, quicker players were slapping at the ball. He has a ways to go, he knows it and the coaches know it. I personally see him playing 2 years at GU; would love to get 3 years from him, but that's not realistic.

maynard g krebs
12-09-2016, 12:14 AM
I personally see him playing 2 years at GU

Agree. I've said the same.

deathchina
12-09-2016, 07:20 AM
I haven't seen this mentioned on the board yet, my apologies if I missed it.

NBA draft express has Collins projected to go 19th in 2018. Sounds about right to me although I wouldn't be surprised if he creeps up a bit higher.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2018/

He's got a great skill set but doesn't have the eye opening athleticism you want from a top pick. He can improve on "swallowing up" rebounds and controlling space. More time in the weight room will really help him there.

Coach Crazy
12-09-2016, 02:02 PM
Right now, due to more opportunity, TJ Leaf is performing above Collins so watching Leaf's 2017 lottery prospects is a good barometer of Zach's.

He's getting more minutes, but they provide similar value.


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MickMick
12-09-2016, 08:12 PM
There is no better tandem in all of college hoops coming off the bench than Collins and Tillie. Their synergy is dynamic and they stuff the stat sheet. It is almost a crime to mix and match them with Williams and Karnowski.

Next year Larsen gets into the mix. That kid can ball as well.