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TacomaZAG
11-14-2016, 09:41 PM
Very impressed so far with both Collins and Tillie. Both guys are very skilled underneath and both can step out and hit the 3. Will be really fun to watch them both progress over the course of the season.

Go ZAGS

seacatfan
11-14-2016, 09:51 PM
Active defenders too. A lot to like about both of them.

zagsfanforlife
11-14-2016, 09:51 PM
They'll be playing more together than Karno and Williams by the end of the year. Williams just looks out of sort unfortunately right now. Love watching tillie-- skilled, plays hard, always in the right place at the right time. Collins is sooo skilled, and an underrated athlete too.

Zag_Dad
11-14-2016, 10:10 PM
They'll be playing more together than Karno and Williams by the end of the year. Williams just looks out of sort unfortunately right now. Love watching tillie-- skilled, plays hard, always in the right place at the right time. Collins is sooo skilled, and an underrated athlete too.

Wouldn't change the starting line up but sure feels good when Collins and Tillie come into the game.

CDC84
11-14-2016, 10:10 PM
Tillie is a total revelation. I had no idea he would be this good. He's even a good passer. As Sean said, very good out of area rebounder. He put some meat on his bones this offseason.

Both are very mature as freshmen.

john montana
11-14-2016, 10:11 PM
They are both so active...just everywhere.

Malastein
11-14-2016, 10:13 PM
Tillie is a total revelation. I had no idea he would be this good. He's even a good passer. As Sean said, very good out of area rebounder. He put some meat on his bones this offseason.

Both are very mature as freshmen.

I think Tillie will be starting by conference play. He's a future NBA player. Really smart, skilled, and he's also a hustler.

thespywhozaggedme
11-14-2016, 10:16 PM
I was going to start this thread if no one else did. These two true freshman are already better than the starters that are ahead of them like better right now currently. If they stay 2 to 3 more years that's gonna be one of the best front courts in college basketball.

thespywhozaggedme
11-14-2016, 10:18 PM
They'll be playing more together than Karno and Williams by the end of the year. Williams just looks out of sort unfortunately right now. Love watching tillie-- skilled, plays hard, always in the right place at the right time. Collins is sooo skilled, and an underrated athlete too.

Williams is just not very good offensively. Tillie is both advanced offensively, defensively and a great rebounder for his age both him and Collins just have the "it" factor. Tillie is the very definition of a stretch four at the next level. The cool thing is we have him here on our team.

billyberu
11-14-2016, 10:21 PM
Tillie is a total revelation. I had no idea he would be this good. He's even a good passer. As Sean said, very good out of area rebounder. He put some meat on his bones this offseason.

Both are very mature as freshmen.
I wonder how Tillie graded out for this game because I was blown away. Pairing him with either Collins are Karnowski actually works because he's not a defensive liability like Wiltjer. Wow. This year's team is very talented.

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Goshzagit
11-14-2016, 10:28 PM
I wonder how Tillie graded out for this game because I was blown away. Pairing him with either Collins are Karnowski actually works because he's not a defensive liability like Wiltjer. Wow. This year's team is very talented.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Does it all. Had a couple sweet passes setting up Karno & Collins.

A few steals, rebounds, 3pt, inside, defense...

Incredible performance.

CDC84
11-14-2016, 10:33 PM
Williams needs to use his athleticism and be much more decisive with his moves.

kitzbuel
11-14-2016, 10:37 PM
Collins was really working the high-low. A couple of nice feeds down to Karno for easy buckets. Both he and Tillie worked to give Karno easy looks.

seacatfan
11-14-2016, 10:39 PM
I'm perfectly good with Karno so far this year. It's Williams I'm concerned about. I'd replace him with either Tillie or Collins in the starting lineup immediately, but it's not up to me.

Virginia Zags Fan
11-14-2016, 10:42 PM
They are sooooo good. Williams is going to be fine. He needs to relax. He is trying too hard to make a play.


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sittingon50
11-15-2016, 12:39 AM
Williams scuffling but he was a double digit scorer in the SEC. He'll be fine.

2wiceright
11-15-2016, 01:19 AM
I think Williams will settle down as well (it's sooo early in the season). Heck, just the scoring he gets off his own rebounding puts his hustle and hard work on display.... Looking at the big picture it is a huge luxury to tire a team down and replace the 4 and 5 with two new guys which add a boost like tonight!!!!!! Plus ("knock on wood"), I still am terrified at the smallest thought Karno could re-injure (nightmare to think about...he's such a great kid, leader, and player).

TexasZagFan
11-15-2016, 05:01 AM
Williams scuffling but he was a double digit scorer in the SEC. He'll be fine.

Agreed, give him a chance to settle down, he's pressing.

TexasZagFan
11-15-2016, 05:02 AM
I think Williams will settle down as well (it's sooo early in the season). Heck, just the scoring he gets off his own rebounding puts his hustle and hard work on display.... Looking at the big picture it is a huge luxury to tire a team down and replace the 4 and 5 with two new guys which add a boost like tonight!!!!!! Plus ("knock on wood"), I still am terrified at the smallest thought Karno could re-injure (nightmare to think about...he's such a great kid, leader, and player).

From 2000 miles away, it's apparent to me this is Shem's team. He is the undisputed leader of this team.

NEC26
11-15-2016, 05:19 AM
From 2000 miles away, it's apparent to me this is Shem's team. He is the undisputed leader of this team.

I noticed the same thing. I'm sorry he was hurt last year but we really benefit having him around this year to help guide this team.

LongIslandZagFan
11-15-2016, 05:31 AM
Tillie is starting to look like Sabonis 2.0... heck of a motor on that kid.

A to Zags
11-15-2016, 05:38 AM
Tillie is starting to look like Sabonis 2.0... heck of a motor on that kid.

Interesting that Fran Franscilla said the same about Mika of BYU last night...looking like another Sabonis. The WCC is going to be fun competition this year.

zagamatic
11-15-2016, 05:47 AM
To me, Tillie is like a cross between Micah Downs and Sabonis. And Collins is like a cross between Wiltjer and Heytvelt. Now I'm not saying that either one is better than their predecessors that I just compared them to. But if one or both of them can get anywhere close to being consistently good enough to be truly compared to these former great Zags, then we're in for a really fun ride this year!
Having Karnowski back is unbelievably good for this team. He's just the exact right senior leader for this group of guys.
And I believe that JWIII will be just fine. He hasn't played in a year and a half and there were rule changes that he's still getting used to.

thespywhozaggedme
11-15-2016, 05:56 AM
Tillie is starting to look like Sabonis 2.0... heck of a motor on that kid.

As i said in another thread, Sabonis without the spazziness. Him and Collins are gonna be stars!

VaBeachZAG
11-15-2016, 06:11 AM
To me, Tillie is like a cross between Micah Downs and Sabonis. And Collins is like a cross between Wiltjer and Heytvelt.

Neither Wiltjer or Heytvelt (especially Heytvelt) were inclined to bang in the paint like Collins. I would have to go all the way back to Calvery to find someone with the skill set and aggressiveness in the paint that you see with Collins.

LongIslandZagFan
11-15-2016, 06:12 AM
Interesting that Fran Franscilla said the same about Mika of BYU last night...looking like another Sabonis. The WCC is going to be fun competition this year.

I watched that game. Mika was good, but think the depth GU has down low... he will be out of his league against them. BYU didn't blow me away. Their core is solid... but bench doesn't scare you... at all.

scrooner
11-15-2016, 06:14 AM
Like Sabonis was last year, Tillie is so fun to watch when he's on the court. Sometimes it looks like he just knows what's going to happen before it does, and beats people to the action.

One play that stuck in my head was when he was running down the baseline as a shot went up, and he reached under the hoop to snag the rebound one-handed, then dribbled out and made a nice feed to Karnowski. I had to rewind it to figure out how he came up with the rebound, ha ha.

Here's the 3x3 mixtape. Kind of fun to watch again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l8svTafXr4

titopoet
11-15-2016, 06:16 AM
Tillie is a total revelation. I had no idea he would be this good. He's even a good passer. As Sean said, very good out of area rebounder. He put some meat on his bones this offseason.

Both are very mature as freshmen.

Tillie is also ever efficient coming from a High BB IQ. He never is rushed and has a calm demeanor. but he always just seems to be in the right spot at the right time and he gets his hand on a lot of balls. He, agains, reminds me of Mike Hart in how aware he is out there. That leads to a very even way of play, never forced and always consistent. Those two may not get as much press nationally as they play behind a Karno and JWIII, but they are among the best Frosh in the country. I also love how they play off each other.

Tille is rapidly becoming my favorite Zag.

DixieZag
11-15-2016, 06:20 AM
He's not a stick, either. He's nearly as big as Collins and both will fill out, fast. Williams took 1-2 extra dribbles and brought the ball down low under his hips - probably nerves. Needs to go up the moment he receives the pass.

Goshzagit
11-15-2016, 06:31 AM
The way Tillie plays & operates on offense & defense is uncoachable for the most part.

He also doesnt need to gain a ton of weight, as has been suggested. Stronger, absolutely, yet he's a floater.

He needs to stay agile, light on his feet, jumping, etc.

For instance, the worst thing Heytvelt did was gain 30 lbs if muscle. Kept him out of the League. Still a good.player but lost his quickness & high flying athleticism. Negated his length & natural vertical. The wrong workout regimen was chosen, & Heytvelt openly admits this...

Collins has room in his game for weight gain, Tillie should almost stay at current weight.

He is already my Wife's new favorite Zags, she picks a new one every season.

CanadianZagsFan
11-15-2016, 07:16 AM
The way Tillie plays & operates on offense & defense is uncoachable for the most part.

He also doesnt need to gain a ton of weight, as has been suggested. Stronger, absolutely, yet he's a floater.

He needs to stay agile, light on his feet, jumping, etc.

For instance, the worst thing Heytvelt did was gain 30 lbs if muscle. Kept him out of the League. Still a good.player but lost his quickness & high flying athleticism. Negated his length & natural vertical. The wrong workout regimen was chosen, & Heytvelt openly admits this...

Collins has room in his game for weight gain, Tillie should almost stay at current weight.

He is already my Wife's new favorite Zags, she picks a new one every season.

I was just thinking the same thing ! Similiar frame to Sabonis when he came to GU, but Tillie needs to freeze his current frame and not really change a thing.. But I felt for Sabonis future self he needed/still does need to add on bit of muscle here and there. Still TBD with Tillie, but I'm with you ! Floaty frame, but calm/focused high level athlete. Underrated strength to him but that part still TBD.

Rest Karn guys! That will save him for later in the year. He's needed to start games, lead team on the bench, in practices , quality of minutes over quantity. Who cares what his numbers are come March. All I care about for him is health and March.

WallaWallaZag
11-15-2016, 07:21 AM
some guys become better when they fill out...you could say olynyk...while some guys lose their natural attributes like a heytvelt. not sure what the case might be with these two (tillie & collins), but with today's modern training i don't think they'll go backwards from an athleticism standpoint even if they do bulk up some.

baitcast
11-15-2016, 07:45 AM
One thing I really like about Collins is his ability to run the floor with the gazelles smooth, Tillie will become mr. everything in no time.........Just think Few will have a starting five on the bench ready to go.

MontanaCoyote
11-15-2016, 07:54 AM
I noticed the same thing. I'm sorry he was hurt last year but we really benefit having him around this year to help guide this team.

Make that a threesome! I watch him direct play on the floor and I watch him encourage, cajole and probably coach during timeouts. And that one no look pass he made brought back the images of his two great no looks against UCLA.

I don't think there's a stat for leadership but if there was he'd win it hands down. No matter the numbers he racks up in the box score, his raw stats will always come up short of his true value to the team. In my book he "scores" right around
8 PPG just by being there. Karno is "The Presence!"

seacatfan
11-15-2016, 08:35 AM
Neither Wiltjer or Heytvelt (especially Heytvelt) were inclined to bang in the paint like Collins. I would have to go all the way back to Calvery to find someone with the skill set and aggressiveness in the paint that you see with Collins.

I'd say more Olynk than Wiltjer to my eye as far as Collins comparsions.

seacatfan
11-15-2016, 08:37 AM
One play that stuck in my head was when he was running down the baseline as a shot went up, and he reached under the hoop to snag the rebound one-handed, then dribbled out and made a nice feed to Karnowski.


That play stood out to me too.

zagamatic
11-15-2016, 08:41 AM
Neither Wiltjer or Heytvelt (especially Heytvelt) were inclined to bang in the paint like Collins. I would have to go all the way back to Calvery to find someone with the skill set and aggressiveness in the paint that you see with Collins.

I would agree with you about Heytvelt not really being a banger, my comparison was more about size, elevation and ability to make a weak side block on a shot. Granted, I never really got to watch Calvary except for a few games, but I do remember him wanting to mix it up.

sittingon50
11-15-2016, 09:33 AM
What sort of illegal inducements can we come up with to keep Collins & Tillie around for 4 years?


(sarcasm for you NCAA & usf type folks).

DixieZag
11-15-2016, 09:43 AM
I'd say more Olynk than Wiltjer to my eye as far as Collins comparsions.

THIS is exactly right. Closer to KO than any other Zag past player.

DixieZag
11-15-2016, 09:44 AM
What sort of illegal inducements can we come up with to keep Collins & Tillie around for 4 years?


(sarcasm for you NCAA & usf type folks).

Outbid the pro teams that come calling? The NCAA has seemed to be just fine with some schools doing that in the past.

Goshzagit
11-15-2016, 09:48 AM
What sort of illegal inducements can we come up with to keep Collins & Tillie around for 4 years?


(sarcasm for you NCAA & usf type folks).


I wish! For selfish reasons, but not happenin...

As much hype as Jeff Goodman has given Collins -- every other tweet -- I could see him as Zags first 'one & done'.

Pretty helpful that Sabonis is starting in the NBA as a 20 yr old big too...and our players are always fundamentally sound to boot.

Combine that with being 7 foot & talent & McDonalds AA...well...screams potential to NBA teams.

Once he starts showing off his shot & 3pt range, which he has, and will flash in WCC play, he's prolly a 1st Round guy.

It helps this is a deep class.

Only thing possibly holding Zach back is injury, he fell to the floor 5 times last night, 3 vs UVU. The way he plays he takes shots, gets fouled, etc.

krii
11-15-2016, 09:58 AM
I was just thinking the same thing ! Similiar frame to Sabonis when he came to GU, but Tillie needs to freeze his current frame and not really change a thing.. But I felt for Sabonis future self he needed/still does need to add on bit of muscle here and there. Still TBD with Tillie, but I'm with you ! Floaty frame, but calm/focused high level athlete. Underrated strength to him but that part still TBD.

Rest Karn guys! That will save him for later in the year. He's needed to start games, lead team on the bench, in practices , quality of minutes over quantity. Who cares what his numbers are come March. All I care about for him is health and March.

The best thing about our bigs is how good they look in any given advance stat ranking. Look them up here: http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/gonzaga/2017.html

Collins and Tillie are killing it but damn ... Karno is incredible. He plays limited minutes, with limited mobility, after a year without basket in his hand and still dominates advanced stats like a king. Look at per/40 for ZC, Shem and Kilie (and Rui but he played only 6 minutes so it's not accurate):
https://s21.postimg.org/k769mqthj/image.jpg
phenomenal!

Mr Vulture
11-15-2016, 10:38 AM
I understand they are very good but let's not get into the one and done stuff. They both have things to improve on, although they play with a maturity not typical for freshman players. Not to mention that this NBA draft class is loaded. With that said, I think we are going to be lucky to get three years out of those guys as they both strike me as NBA caliber talents with continued development.


I wish! For selfish reasons, but not happenin...

As much hype as Jeff Goodman has given Collins -- every other tweet -- I could see him as Zags first 'one & done'.

Pretty helpful that Sabonis is starting in the NBA as a 20 yr old big too...and our players are always fundamentally sound to boot.

Combine that with being 7 foot & talent & McDonalds AA...well...screams potential to NBA teams.

Once he starts showing off his shot & 3pt range, which he has, and will flash in WCC play, he's prolly a 1st Round guy.

It helps this is a deep class.

Only thing possibly holding Zach back is injury, he fell to the floor 5 times last night, 3 vs UVU. The way he plays he takes shots, gets fouled, etc.

webspinnre
11-15-2016, 10:53 AM
Agree with others that Tillie was the big revelation. I expected Collins to be great, and he's looked great so far, but I didn't think that Tillie was going to be anywhere near this ready. Gotta love that we have 4 legit big men, and even the backup depth in Edwards.

seacatfan
11-15-2016, 11:10 AM
Gotta love that we have 4 legit big men, and even the backup depth in Edwards.

It would've been a nice problem to have, but can you imagine how crowded the front court would've been if Sabonis returned for another year? And reports from the off season indicated that Larsen could've been a contributor this year as well. Unless there is a mass exodus, the front court should be loaded next year as well.