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View Full Version : July 7th SI rankings. No mention of the Frosh kids........I wonder



MDABE80
07-25-2016, 02:25 PM
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/power-rankings-duke-kansas-villanova-oregon-kentucky

Probably 16 is good enough but I wonder, since SI doesn't mention them, will Collins, Norvell, Rui move us up. It's a topic worth a discussion. How much value do they add to this year's team? I know it's conjectural but when Duke's and Kentucky's value are largely dependent on their frosh It made me wonder. How good are our freshman ? And will they matter?

seacatfan
07-25-2016, 02:59 PM
Freshmen can only be counted on to make a big impact at Duke and Kentucky. At all other schools their youth is a liability. The pundits can't be wrong about this kind of stuff.

DZ
07-25-2016, 03:06 PM
Glad SMC is getting props. Weird to see them ahead of us, but as Seacat says, frosh can't matter outside power 5.

The thing about "Key is Karno" - well, that's part of the key, the other part is whether Collins can come in and provide near same or more.

Oregon at 4?

Really?

seacatfan
07-25-2016, 03:13 PM
Oregon hammered Duke in the Tourney last year and return most of their key guys.

On the topic of Duke, it's funny the article is hyping Chase Jeter. He was probably the biggest disappointment of any of the freshmen class in the entire country last year. But yeah, this year instead of being completely buried on the bench he's going to become an elite player. K has a history of burying players, it's really hard to get out of his doghouse. Transferring out is usually the best option. Also the last guy listed of their ballyhooed freshmen class for this year is the most likely to be yet another highly regarded recruit to go to Duke and be the odd man out.

75Zag
07-25-2016, 03:59 PM
After we win our first National Championship I will fault the media for failing to consider our incoming freshmen or the obscure but overly-talented kids from Asia or wherever. But for now, I am not sure GU deserves that kind of credit. Best to sit back and wait until our moment-in-the-sun.

Go Bulldogs!

zagamatic
07-25-2016, 05:06 PM
Nice to see BYU getting some love at 28, that makes 3 top 30 preseason teams from the WCC

23dpg
07-25-2016, 05:41 PM
Nice to see BYU getting some love at 28, that makes 3 top 30 preseason teams from the WCC

Or 4 from the Big12?

In all seriousness, next year has the widest variance in expected outcomes for Gonzaga in years. At least for me.

Hoopaholic
07-25-2016, 05:50 PM
After we win our first National Championship I will fault the media for failing to consider our incoming freshmen or the obscure but overly-talented kids from Asia or wherever. But for now, I am not sure GU deserves that kind of credit. Best to sit back and wait until our moment-in-the-sun.

Go Bulldogs!

Agree but think the break thru moment will be final four not necessarily NC....although I would love a NC

Coach Crazy
07-25-2016, 05:53 PM
Nice to see BYU getting some love at 28, that makes 3 top 30 preseason teams from the WCC

They should be higher. Just poor effort on the part of those compiling the list.


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Zags_Fanatic
07-25-2016, 06:06 PM
They should be higher. Just poor effort on the part of those compiling the list.


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Lot of question marks for BYU still, talent is there but they haven't played together in such a long time.

No need to questions Luke Winn's dedication, of all of the pundits he is easily the most dedicated and prepared.

gonzagafan62
07-25-2016, 07:45 PM
They should be higher. Just poor effort on the part of those compiling the list.


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I agree. SMC should be around 35 and BYU should be in top 25. Just don't see SMC being in top 25 by seasons end. SMC runs the high pick and roll last tear that nobody could figure out with their players. Once Gonzaga figure it out they once again beat them. I have a hard time imagining SMC will get that lucky not just in OOC but in the WCC even. They had all the breaks and couldn't win outright. They seem like a weak last 4 in type team in tournament. I really hope I'm wrong.

I really really want SMC to be awesome.

CDC84
07-25-2016, 08:18 PM
On the topic of Duke, it's funny the article is hyping Chase Jeter. He was probably the biggest disappointment of any of the freshmen class in the entire country last year. But yeah, this year instead of being completely buried on the bench he's going to become an elite player. K has a history of burying players, it's really hard to get out of his doghouse. Transferring out is usually the best option. Also the last guy listed of their ballyhooed freshmen class for this year is the most likely to be yet another highly regarded recruit to go to Duke and be the odd man out.

Coach K has a history of playing his most talented and cerebral players, regardless of "experience." I will never forget going to a Stanford/Duke game in Oakland when both teams were ranked in the top 10, and Coach K had zero issues with starting freshman guard Chris Duhon in such a huge game, despite his inexperience. And it's not like Duhon went on to become a NBA all star or anything like that. But at that point in time, he was a terrific college basketball player who was simply better at the shooting guard slot that anyone else on the roster. He won Coach K's favor and trust right away, whereas other Duke freshmen over the years went into the doghouse and never got out. Chris Burgess comes to mind......

Being that Zach Collins is GU's first McDonald's AA to commit to them out of HS, you would think that CNNSI would have the acumen to at least mention his name.....especially when you consider how great the 2016 recruiting class is. When it comes Hachimura....CNNSI has about as much knowledge about the international players as we do on this board. I think it's one of the reasons why Gonzaga is always one of the most difficult teams to rank in the preseason. They always end up being better than expected, but you're not quite sure where they'll end up. And no, I don't care what nbadraft.net has to say about Rui. That site has a terrible track record. I wouldn't be surprised if I end up being in their top 10 at some point with the way those guys work :)

TexasZagFan
07-26-2016, 05:50 AM
Or 4 from the Big12?

In all seriousness, next year has the widest variance in expected outcomes for Gonzaga in years. At least for me.

Not for me, my expectations were in the stratosphere, prior to Karno's injury. I'm excited, naturally, but my fingers are crossed that we avoid the injury bug.

DZ
07-26-2016, 06:47 AM
After we win our first National Championship I will fault the media for failing to consider our incoming freshmen or the obscure but overly-talented kids from Asia or wherever. But for now, I am not sure GU deserves that kind of credit. Best to sit back and wait until our moment-in-the-sun.

Go Bulldogs!

I'd agree on the international players.

But a 5 star kid is a 5 star kid and this one happens to be 7' ft.

So, when someone says "Karno is the key" as this writer did, it's really pretty lame to not include one sentence on "Though they do have 5 star 7' tall Collins..."

Not a big deal either way. I do worry about Karno. I'm sure he's getting elite health care, but Tiger also got the best in the world and his back just hasn't been the same, and he doesn't fall on hard courts much. He deserves to be healthy, has worked so hard, been a good teammate, but back injuries/surgeries....

Coach Crazy
07-26-2016, 07:10 AM
I agree. SMC should be around 35 and BYU should be in top 25. Just don't see SMC being in top 25 by seasons end. SMC runs the high pick and roll last tear that nobody could figure out with their players. Once Gonzaga figure it out they once again beat them. I have a hard time imagining SMC will get that lucky not just in OOC but in the WCC even. They had all the breaks and couldn't win outright. They seem like a weak last 4 in type team in tournament. I really hope I'm wrong.

I really really want SMC to be awesome.

I think is very likely they won't be in the Top 25. They have to do well against GU and BYU, *and* not lose too many outside of that. Then again, the Top 25 is a subjective measure. I could see GU sweeping them, this year. And BYU, though without Collinsworth, will be very talented this year. Their "three" dominated together in high school basketball. If they [St. Mary's] go 1-3 or 0-4 against GU and BYU, that's going to make it very difficult to acheive their goal to get to the tourney.

Coach Crazy
07-26-2016, 07:12 AM
I'd agree on the international players.

But a 5 star kid is a 5 star kid and this one happens to be 7' ft.

So, when someone says "Karno is the key" as this writer did, it's really pretty lame to not include one sentence on "Though they do have 5 star 7' tall Collins..."

Not a big deal either way. I do worry about Karno. I'm sure he's getting elite health care, but Tiger also got the best in the world and his back just hasn't been the same, and he doesn't fall on hard courts much. He deserves to be healthy, has worked so hard, been a good teammate, but back injuries/surgeries....

Yep. Most teams that bring in multi-tooled 7-footers that are also AA's tend to get credit for that. Granted, Neither Jeter or Zimmerman were really that impressive.

cbbfanatic
07-26-2016, 07:35 AM
just because they dont list every guy doesnt mean gu is not "getting credit" for them.

read some of the other write-ups... a lot of key proven guys are not mentioned.

i would argue GU is getting plenty of credit for a 5 star frosh with a ranking in the teens given that: the incumbent backcourt is suspect, a huge reliance on transfers, the loss of best two players who dominated the scoring column, and karnowski being a total wild card trying to come back from what he has had to deal with. for a lot of programs, that probably adds up to unranked, but knocking on the door with plenty of opportunity to get into the polls during the season.

you dont get to #16 solely on the words written in their writeup

kitzbuel
07-26-2016, 10:08 AM
you dont get to #16 solely on the words written in their writeup

Often, when reading about the justification behind a claim, readers expect that the words written in a write up support the claim. That is a frequent practice of professional writers.

primal23
07-26-2016, 10:25 AM
I think is very likely they won't be in the Top 25. They have to do well against GU and BYU, *and* not lose too many outside of that. Then again, the Top 25 is a subjective measure. I could see GU sweeping them, this year. And BYU, though without Collinsworth, will be very talented this year. Their "three" dominated together in high school basketball. If they [St. Mary's] go 1-3 or 0-4 against GU and BYU, that's going to make it very difficult to acheive their goal to get to the tourney.

Easy to not lose outside of that, at least in OOC. Blind sisters of the poor don't fight much in MBB.

Coach Crazy
07-26-2016, 10:41 AM
Easy to not lose outside of that, at least in OOC. Blind sisters of the poor don't fight much in MBB.

This is true. But it took Gonzaga lacking depth, Missing Mt. K, and lacking cohesion for them to beat Gonzaga. Otherwise? Gonzaga very well could have won both. That raises their loss total to 8. And with a schedule like theirs? That may not be enough for the Top 25, and it very clearly would still have kept them out of the Dance.

BYU has the opportunity to be better, this year. Gonzaga *will* be better, this year. Could they only lose against those opponents? Sure, but it's not out of the question that they could lose 1 or 2 outside of BYU and Gonzaga (in conference).

jazzdelmar
07-26-2016, 11:32 AM
Karno is hardly "the biggest" key. That's just lazy, dog days of summer reporting. I would put the relative performances of Goss, Matthews, Perks, and even Williams ahead of Karno's "key-ness." One reason: If Karno falters, Collins steps right in and not only does GU not miss a beat, it may pick it up.

Zagdawg
07-26-2016, 11:46 AM
Gotta disagree with you on this one jazz--- we saw the same movie with what happened with Karno out last year-- it took two veterans (Sabonis and Wiltjer) and the rest of the team a significant amount of time to compensate for his loss -- I don't see a freshman just getting up to college speed - stepping in and the Zags not missing a beat - when we could not do it with two veteran college and future NBA players.
Karnos floor leadership, requiring a double in the post, passing, defensive presence and veteran leadership make a huge difference overall for the team-- Collins is going to be good but he will not be able to just step in replace all of those attributes as a green freshman.

seacatfan
07-26-2016, 11:55 AM
Exactly Zagdawg, you nailed it.

seacatfan
07-26-2016, 11:56 AM
just because they dont list every guy doesnt mean gu is not "getting credit" for them.

read some of the other write-ups... a lot of key proven guys are not mentioned.


Good point. They were fairly in depth with Duke's roster, but the further down the list they go the fewer players from each team they bothered to mention.

gonzagafan62
07-26-2016, 11:58 AM
Karno is hardly "the biggest" key. That's just lazy, dog days of summer reporting. I would put the relative performances of Goss, Matthews, Perks, and even Williams ahead of Karno's "key-ness." One reason: If Karno falters, Collins steps right in and not only does GU not miss a beat, it may pick it up.

Just keeping it real. Absolutely agree that it's lazy reporting. It doesn't do this team justice at all

roxdoc
07-26-2016, 02:58 PM
The amount of time needed to compensate for Karno’s loss seemed to be because we did not have a “plan B” and had to create one on the go. One prays that things work out for Karno, but now there is plenty of notice so that a “plan B” to be could be adopted much more quickly.

Markburn1
07-26-2016, 04:01 PM
The amount of time needed to compensate for Karno’s loss seemed to be because we did not have a “plan B” and had to create one on the go. One prays that things work out for Karno, but now there is plenty of notice so that a “plan B” to be could be adopted much more quickly.

Very perceptive comment. Last year's team was built on the concept of Karno being the stabilizing influence on both ends of the court. Too much so in my opinion. Sabonis was, and is, the better player. It took a while for the coaching staff and the players to adjust to Sabonis and Wiltjer being the focus of the offense. If Karno is not what we all hope he will be the coaches and players will be ready physically and psychologically because they will have prepared for it. And, do not underestimate Collins ability to step in from day one. Kid is legit.

Zagdawg
07-26-2016, 04:42 PM
I've see Collins bang against Edwards in practice-- it is indeed a forward banging against a center (i.e. not enough strength yet).

Would rather have a center playing center and a forward playing forward rather than out of position.

Hope Big K. can play -- it will make our overall team better.

DZ
07-26-2016, 04:55 PM
Gotta disagree with you on this one jazz--- we saw the same movie with what happened with Karno out last year-- it took two veterans (Sabonis and Wiltjer) and the rest of the team a significant amount of time to compensate for his loss -- I don't see a freshman just getting up to college speed - stepping in and the Zags not missing a beat - when we could not do it with two veteran college and future NBA players.
Karnos floor leadership, requiring a double in the post, passing, defensive presence and veteran leadership make a huge difference overall for the team-- Collins is going to be good but he will not be able to just step in replace all of those attributes as a green freshman.

You might be right.

OTOH, we have had it happen many times before. I recall two guys who stepped on the floor, not just ready to go, but an improvement, in Pangos/Bell, Harris was so good that we almost lost him after one year, and Sabonis walked onto the floor at the same level as a Jr. Karno. It's not the norm, but I have high expectations based on what I hear from people who know. (around here).

I dearly hope we have Karno ready at full speed. But, I think it would be foolish to plan that way. I would rather be ready to have Collins start day one with however many minutes and if Karno really is full speed and ready to go, then you have the best kind of problem.

seacatfan
07-26-2016, 06:14 PM
It's not that Collins is lacking talent. He probably does some things better than Karno right now. But I seriously doubt the Zags would be able to run their offense thru a freshman big the same way we know they can thru Karno. And while Collins has shown some ability as a shot blocker, he's not a lane clogger like PK. Also as noted above Collins doesn't have the size and strength of Karno and won't be able to bang against big bodies the same way. Hopefully Karno is good to go and then both PK and Collins can do their thing next year.

krii
07-27-2016, 12:20 AM
I see the hype around Collins is high ;-) I wish this kid all the best but healthy Karno is clearly better player. IF he is healthy he is one of the best centers in the game. As a stretch 4 Collins would benefit from playing alongside player like Karnowski but as a pure center he could be banged and pushed in some games. IMO rotation on 4/5 should look like this:

4: JWIII / Collins / Tillie? or Hachimura (small ball)
5: Karnowski / Edwards / Collins (small ball) / Larsen?

Out of this group Tillie and Larsen could easily redshirt.

In those games Karno, Collins and JWIII could easily average ca 20-25 minutes, Edwards and Rui ca 10-15 minutes (Rui a couple of minutes at PF, more at SF). Karnowski is not pushed to play massive minutes so he can easily recover & train his body, JWIII can play leading PF role, Collins get heavy minutes to develop and learn.

If Collins walks in and take over the entire league by storm I'll be shocked. IMO he needs some time but there is a great chance he WOULD. In the future. One season as a 6th man, two fantastic players to learn from (Karnowski, JWIII) and he could easily become the basketball monster.

jazzdelmar
07-27-2016, 02:32 AM
Imo, the sentimentality on the board gets in the way of a rational analysis of Karno. Irrespective of his back injury, he was a very good college basketball player. He will make a living in Europe. No more. No less. Does not rebound well, shoots FTs atrociously, misses a lot of bunnies, and not a great defender. He is a terrific passer and lane clogger. If he plays that's great, another weapon. But Collins is more of a key next year. As always in the Gonzaga system the point guard is the key of keys and that's Goss, for his own play but also what he could engender in improvements in Perkins.

krii
07-27-2016, 03:55 AM
Imo, the sentimentality on the board gets in the way of a rational analysis of Karno. Irrespective of his back injury, he was a very good college basketball player. He will make a living in Europe. No more. No less. Does not rebound well, shoots FTs atrociously, misses a lot of bunnies, and not a great defender. He is a terrific passer and lane clogger. If he plays that's great, another weapon. But Collins is more of a key next year. As always in the Gonzaga system the point guard is the key of keys and that's Goss, for his own play but also what he could engender in improvements in Perkins.
On the other hand I have a feeling that he is sometimes underappreciated. In terms of rational analysis of Karnowski usually some bring numbers. Well, he was playing alongside Sabonis and Wiltjer who have been focused on certain part of of the game (rebounds - Sabonis, shooting - Wiltjer).
Now let me do a rational analysis of Karno :-) I'll go with main PF/C in Karno's years (Dower, Olynyk, Wiltjer, Sabonis) + Karnowski himself. I analyzed all those stats for the aforementioned players: ppg / rpg / apg / spg / bpg / FG% / FT% / ORtg / DRtg / PER / TS% / ORB% / DRB% / TRB% / AST% / STL% / BLK % / USG% / OWS / DWS / WS/40 / OBPM / DBPM.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/przemek-karnowski-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/domantas-sabonis-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/kyle-wiltjer-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/sam-dower-1.html

Sam Dower played a minor role in 2012/13 with a starting position in 2013/14. In his first season he played o average 6 minutes more than Karnowski and averaged very similar numbers. In his second season he took a starting role and played very well, Karnowski became first-off-the-bench. In terms of defense Karnowski looked better (higher rebounding percentages, muuuch higher block%, higher DBPM and DWS). Olynyk was a brute, prototypical PF/C for a new NBA. Much, much better than any of the two. Now, funny thing about Dower and Karnowski. Dower in Poland last season averaged 13p/6r/0.6s/0.7b on .550/.382/.759 and PER 14.4. Karnowski as an 18 year old player averaged 10p/4.4r/1.3a/0.7s/1.2b on .520/.067/.560 and PER 11.1.

Karnowski was over-weighted, European player who came to Gonzaga as a raw talent without too many NCAA-ready skills. His game improved yearly and in 2014/15 he became very good player. Probably the best defender in Gonzaga, especially together with Sabonis (they were completing each other well). Look at his stats at the international level as well http://www.eurobasket2015.org/fr/compID_qMRZdYCZI6EoANOrUf9le2.season_2015.roundID_ 9318.teamID_347.playerID_70925.html.

To conclude: you can't say he wasn't shooting and rebounding well and wasn't a great defender (numbers are not supporting that). His FT% improved and can improve with years - as someone stated he probably needs to change his shooting style, as he almost never shoot too-much-right or too-much-left but rather too short. It's a thing you can learn. His athleticism improved with years, he looks much better, played much better last year and will play much better this year. I don't really understand why a freshman who COULD BE but DOESN'T HAVE TO BE great is the key, but the guy who is probably one of the best centers in the history of this organization is not?

jazzdelmar
07-27-2016, 04:23 AM
One of the best centers in GU history? How long is your list. Casey. Sacre. KO? Who's your top 5?

MileHigh
07-27-2016, 04:39 AM
..I am hearing that the frosh that has really impressed the current guys, especially when you take into account he was projected as a redshirt, is Hachimura.
Atlhletic and with a 7-2 wingspan he is reportedly a freakish shot blocker. The players have been so impressed by him that they feel there is no way he redshirts as he can help the team immediately.

Doesnt speak a lick of english yet, so that will have to worked through.

jazzdelmar
07-27-2016, 04:43 AM
..I am hearing that the frosh that has really impressed the current guys, especially when you take into account he was projected as a redshirt, is Hachimura.
Atlhletic and with a 7-2 wingspan he is reportedly a freakish shot blocker. The players have been so impressed by him that they feel there is no way he redshirts as he can help the team immediately.

Doesnt speak a lick of english yet though, so that will have to worked through.

Imagine that kind of talent at the top of a 1-3-1 zone.

DZ
07-27-2016, 07:13 AM
Doesnt speak a lick of english yet though, so that will have to worked through.

Ouch.

Goshzagit
07-27-2016, 07:15 AM
..I am hearing that the frosh that has really impressed the current guys, especially when you take into account he was projected as a redshirt, is Hachimura.
Atlhletic and with a 7-2 wingspan he is reportedly a freakish shot blocker. The players have been so impressed by him that they feel there is no way he redshirts as he can help the team immediately.

Doesnt speak a lick of english yet though, so that will have to worked through.

Heard close to the same, as his shot making, offensive rebounding, & shot blocking have been noted & all are impressed.

However, Louis has also strugged mightily with terminology(obviously), man to man defense, defensive rebounding, & offensive flow.

He's currently enrolled in nearly full-time english classes and for credit too.

The language barrier is further behind than Karnowski, Sabonis, Turiaf, Tillie (will be), Elias, et al because their countries still utilize "english" terms/words on the bball court. Japan does not.

That said, his attributes are impressive as Milehigh mentioned. He will no doubt be a factor. His wingspan, ability, work ethic are tremendous. He will develop into a force. Multi positional. Zone defender. Can create his own shot vs any player in scrimmages. A terror on offensive boards. Runs the floor well. Instincts are terrific. Very much like Elias...not quite as brutish on the glass, but a better with ball skills & shooting touch.

Once the coaching takes shape & he learns our terms, we received quite a talent (a steal!) of a prospect.

Hoopaholic
07-27-2016, 07:39 AM
Imagine that kind of talent at the top of a 1-3-1 zone.

why would you take a natural shot blocker (as reports indicate) and put them at the top of a 1-3-1 that to me seems like a total waste of apparent natural ability IMO

GonzagasaurusFlex
07-27-2016, 09:03 AM
why would you take a natural shot blocker (as reports indicate) and put them at the top of a 1-3-1 that to me seems like a total waste of apparent natural ability IMO

Because of another shot blocker already playing back there, maybe Williams or Collins (possibly Karnowski but need lateral quickness he doesn't have). Remember how disruptive the long armed kid from Villanova was in last years tourney? Would love to see Rui play that role for Zags for the brief spurts they may zone press

kitzbuel
07-27-2016, 10:37 AM
Heard close to the same, as his shot making, offensive rebounding, & shot blocking have been noted & all are impressed.

However, Louis has also strugged mightily with terminology(obviously), man to man defense, defensive rebounding, & offensive flow.

He's currently enrolled in nearly full-time english classes and for credit too.

The language barrier is further behind than Karnowski, Sabonis, Turiaf, Tillie (will be), Elias, et al because their countries still utilize "english" terms/words on the bball court. Japan does not.

That said, his attributes are impressive as Milehigh mentioned. He will no doubt be a factor. His wingspan, ability, work ethic are tremendous. He will develop into a force. Multi positional. Zone defender. Can create his own shot vs any player in scrimmages. A terror on offensive boards. Runs the floor well. Instincts are terrific. Very much like Elias...not quite as brutish on the glass, but a better with ball skills & shooting touch.

Once the coaching takes shape & he learns our terms, we received quite a talent (a steal!) of a prospect.

Maybe bring Josh H around to help him with his English basketball terminology? I would hope Josh picked some lingo up over the course of 2 years.

maynard g krebs
07-27-2016, 12:28 PM
Imagine that kind of talent at the top of a 1-3-1 zone.

Interesting thought, but has GU ever done that? I can't remember seeing it. More likely imo is in the 1-2-2 3/4 court trap, a la Morrison and I think Knight, if memory serves.

cbbfanatic
07-27-2016, 12:35 PM
Because of another shot blocker already playing back there, maybe Williams or Collins (possibly Karnowski but need lateral quickness he doesn't have). Remember how disruptive the long armed kid from Villanova was in last years tourney? Would love to see Rui play that role for Zags for the brief spurts they may zone press

this was my thought exactly. mikal bridges' play at the top of the 1-3-1 is a big reason nova got by kansas. incredibly disruptive

jazzdelmar
07-27-2016, 12:38 PM
Interesting thought, but has GU ever done that? I can't remember seeing it. More likely imo is in the 1-2-2 3/4 court trap, a la Morrison and I think Knight, if memory serves.

Never have. I was just dreaming. If we did for a moment in the past it would have been a smurf guard at the point. Micah would have been perfect for that role. Maybe Gray.

seacatfan
07-27-2016, 12:41 PM
Never have. I was just dreaming. If we did for a moment in the past it would have been a smurf guard at the point. Micah would have been perfect for that role. Maybe Gray.

Maybe Daye too? Not great lateral quickness, but his arms were just so damn long.

Hoopaholic
07-27-2016, 01:07 PM
Because of another shot blocker already playing back there, maybe Williams or Collins (possibly Karnowski but need lateral quickness he doesn't have). Remember how disruptive the long armed kid from Villanova was in last years tourney? Would love to see Rui play that role for Zags for the brief spurts they may zone press

We have length and athleticism to put at point of 1-3-1. That I agree with but if he is a natural shot blocker and a solid rebounder that slit would be ill fitted for these qualities and better served at another spot on floor

Goshzagit
07-27-2016, 01:17 PM
We have length and athleticism to put at point of 1-3-1. That I agree with but if he is a natural shot blocker and a solid rebounder that slit would be ill fitted for these qualities and better served at another spot on floor

We zoned approximately 8% of our possessions last season.

Wonder if we will utilize more this season with the youth & a couple rim protectors in Collins/JW3/Karno?

Btw, karno a vastly, almost criminally underrated, shot blocker.

Zagdawg
07-27-2016, 01:27 PM
Due to the injury/thin depth last year of our bigs -- we were not much of a shot blocking team --- we should see some good improvements in the blocking department with our additions this year.

gonzagafan62
07-27-2016, 05:01 PM
Due to the injury/thin depth last year of our bigs -- we were not much of a shot blocking team --- we should see some good improvements in the blocking department with our additions this year.

Just having karnowski back is huge! That's before adding JW3 and others. Golly. This team is going to be fun. Just sit back and enjoying the winning!

JPtheBeasta
07-27-2016, 05:04 PM
Freshmen can only be counted on to make a big impact at Duke and Kentucky. At all other schools their youth is a liability. The pundits can't be wrong about this kind of stuff.

Pangos, Sabonis, Morrison et al probably would beg to differ.

seacatfan
07-27-2016, 05:11 PM
Pangos, Sabonis, Morrison et al probably would beg to differ.

Might need to have your sarcasm meter recalibrated. Notice I didn't mention my other favorite team Arizona, who has had more than a few impact freshmen over the years.

JPtheBeasta
07-27-2016, 05:12 PM
Imo, the sentimentality on the board gets in the way of a rational analysis of Karno. Irrespective of his back injury, he was a very good college basketball player. He will make a living in Europe. No more. No less. Does not rebound well, shoots FTs atrociously, misses a lot of bunnies, and not a great defender. He is a terrific passer and lane clogger. If he plays that's great, another weapon. But Collins is more of a key next year. As always in the Gonzaga system the point guard is the key of keys and that's Goss, for his own play but also what he could engender in improvements in Perkins.

PK did great on Duke's big man in March and our post defense suffered without him last year. We rarely need to double team the post with him in the game, and the advantage of that should be obvious. It seems to me you underestimate his presence down low.

seacatfan
07-27-2016, 05:17 PM
PK did great on Duke's big man in March and our post defense suffered without him last year. We rarely need to double team the post with him in the game, and the advantage of that should be obvious. It seems to me you underestimate his presence down low.

PK is a fairly polarizing figure. Opinions seem to vary widely on his importance or impact at GU. I agree with you. He's never gonna post 18 and 12 stats like Sabonis did, but I thought he was incredible during the 14/15 season, way beyond what his somewhat modest stats seem to indicate. I thought he displayed near mastery of defeating double teaming action with his passes to cutters or out to shooters on the perimeter. And if a team didn't double him, he could score one-on-one against just about any low post defender he went up against. Plus the low post defense he provides.

JPtheBeasta
07-27-2016, 05:17 PM
Might need to have your sarcasm meter recalibrated. Notice I didn't mention my other favorite team Arizona, who has had more than a few impact freshmen over the years.

Roger that. I usually try to include a [/sarcasm] tag to let the denser people (which includes me, unfortunately) know I'm am kidding.
I did see that you are a U of A fan, which is why I thought you were serious ;)

I live down in AZ and have plenty of friends who Bear Down. I've enjoyed our games and quasi-rivalry over the years, and am still waiting to get the best of UofA in a meaningful way.

JPtheBeasta
07-27-2016, 05:19 PM
PK is a fairly polarizing figure. Opinions seem to vary widely on his importance or impact at GU. I agree with you. He's never gonna post 18 and 12 stats like Sabonis did, but I thought he was incredible during the 14/15 season, way beyond what his somewhat modest stats seem to indicate. I thought he displayed near mastery of defeating double teaming action with his passes to cutters or out to shooters on the perimeter. And if a team didn't double him, he could score one-on-one against just about any low post defender he went up against. Plus the low post defense he provides.

I agree. He is my projected glue guy for this year's team.

Martin Centre Mad Man
07-27-2016, 05:59 PM
PK is a fairly polarizing figure. Opinions seem to vary widely on his importance or impact at GU. I agree with you. He's never gonna post 18 and 12 stats like Sabonis did, but I thought he was incredible during the 14/15 season, way beyond what his somewhat modest stats seem to indicate. I thought he displayed near mastery of defeating double teaming action with his passes to cutters or out to shooters on the perimeter. And if a team didn't double him, he could score one-on-one against just about any low post defender he went up against. Plus the low post defense he provides.

Karnowski is a craftsman on the low block. He is so precise and so powerful. Watching him methodically break down a post defender is like watching a veteran blacksmith artfully pound a piece of raw iron into an elegant sculpture. We missed him a lot in 2016. He will be a huge steadying force in 2017.

zagamatic
07-27-2016, 07:05 PM
Put simply, Karnowski initiates defensive rotation when he gets the ball by demanding a double team. So whether it's Karnowski that scores directly, or the man he passes to or the next guy after that, many of our points start with Karnowski when he's in the game.
On the defensive end, he rarely needs help with anyone 1 on 1, but I've never seen another big at Gonzaga that prevents opponents guards from even taking a shot like he does by just being in the way. Seriously, he probably deters at least 4 shots for every one he gets credit for blocking and that's a conservative estimate.
So if you're looking at just the stat sheets to determine a players value, you're missing the bigger picture.

Hoopaholic
07-27-2016, 07:09 PM
We zoned approximately 8% of our possessions last season.

Wonder if we will utilize more this season with the youth & a couple rim protectors in Collins/JW3/Karno?

Btw, karno a vastly, almost criminally underrated, shot blocker.

Agree

OZZY
07-27-2016, 07:52 PM
Put simply, Karnowski initiates defensive rotation when he gets the ball by demanding a double team. So whether it's Karnowski that scores directly, or the man he passes to or the next guy after that, many of our points start with Karnowski when he's in the game.
On the defensive end, he rarely needs help with anyone 1 on 1, but I've never seen another big at Gonzaga that prevents opponents guards from even taking a shot like he does by just being in the way. Seriously, he probably deters at least 4 shots for every one he gets credit for blocking and that's a conservative estimate.
So if you're looking at just the stat sheets to determine a players value, you're missing the bigger picture.

So what we could say is that Karno is a terrific "shot stopper" .

"In Karno I trust" .........since 2012.

MontanaCoyote
07-27-2016, 08:40 PM
Put simply, Karnowski initiates defensive rotation when he gets the ball by demanding a double team. So whether it's Karnowski that scores directly, or the man he passes to or the next guy after that, many of our points start with Karnowski when he's in the game.
On the defensive end, he rarely needs help with anyone 1 on 1, but I've never seen another big at Gonzaga that prevents opponents guards from even taking a shot like he does by just being in the way. Seriously, he probably deters at least 4 shots for every one he gets credit for blocking and that's a conservative estimate.
So if you're looking at just the stat sheets to determine a players value, you're missing the bigger picture.

This is spot on. Forget the stats for a minute. As zagamatic suggests, what doesn't the opposition get to do with Karno
in there that won't show up as a measurable stat credited to him? And how about what may be the most important thing a player can bring to his team........the ability to make his team mates better? Sure, there are D1 centers with "better" stats than Karno, but if you combine Karno's stats with the positive non measurables I've suggested here,
(which, of course, also specifically include leadership, experience, character, maturity et al ) you've got all you could ask for and then some. Admittedly, this is pure speculation from a non expert, but to help me make my point allow me to suggest that Karno is "worth" no less than 7-9 points a game simply by being on the team and being on the floor.......in other words, just being there. Personally, I think he's he's worth points, scored or prevented, sitting on the bench. That's how much I value Karno. Karno IS The Key and the glue for the ZAG'S 2016-2017 run.


better.

The509sfinest
07-28-2016, 05:43 AM
Elias Harris is another 4 that made a huge impact as a freshman, arguably his best year at GU

DZ
07-28-2016, 07:59 AM
Agree about Karno being a glue guy on a team with so many new faces. Fortunately, he can do that even if his back flares up at times.

spike_jr
07-28-2016, 09:43 AM
Karno may not be a great stat stuffer, and he may not have the same ability or ceiling as Collins, but he is a great, and a very important, player in Few's system. He passes well, clogs the land on D, plus the time other teams have to game plan around him is invaluable. His value goes way beyond what you will find in the box score. For his sake, and ours, I hope to see him at 100% ASAP.