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Zagdog71
04-24-2016, 03:49 PM
Fans are always looking for topics during the off-season. One subject which hasn't been discussed for a very long time is retiring player jerseys.

John Stockton (#12) and Frank Burgess (#44) are the only players to have jerseys hanging at McCarthy. Why aren't there more?

Does the university and/or the athletic department have criteria for selection? Who decides; who should decide? Some schools give this honor soon after a player is finished with the program. Seems like SMC does this.

Should recognition be based solely on GU court performance? Plus academics? Personal and post-GU career achievement? All American status (first, second or third team selection, honorable mention)? Need to stay all four years? Can a transfer be considered? How many years should pass until someone is eligible?

People have discussed Jeff Brown, Ronny Turiaf, Adam Morrison, and Dan Dickau along with others.

I would be very interested to read the thoughts of the GU Board.

Zagnificent
04-24-2016, 05:44 PM
Interesting thought. Morrison would be the next logical retiree. National player is the year is a pretty big deal. If Sabonis had stayed another year or two, he'd be up there as well. I like keeping it exclusive. Olynyk is another who is near the top of the list. All American, also academic AA IIRC. Took the team to its first #1 seed.

gonzagafan62
04-24-2016, 05:47 PM
Jerry Vermillion!

MDABE80
04-24-2016, 05:52 PM
All Americans............and one insane rebounder........DD, Morrison and Vermillion.....great place to start. These are the easy choices.

exclusivelee
04-24-2016, 06:23 PM
Jerry Krause was honored last year with his retirement. Jersey #1 was retired:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160425/c6d2545547eb99982d009d537a045064.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160425/18faa56c6fc7b4bd9360074bb2a9030b.jpg

Zags_Fanatic
04-24-2016, 06:57 PM
I know a lot of programs require players to get their diploma to have their number retired but both Morrison and Olynyk fit that criteria as well. It's the reason Curry's number won't be retired at Davidson unless he comes back to finish his degree.

jazzdelmar
04-24-2016, 07:12 PM
The 99ers would have to be repped, maybe as a unit, then DD and Ammo of course, then KO. Keep the standards high.

DixieZag
04-24-2016, 07:15 PM
If we could only have one, it has to be Burgess, the performance combined with story.

Would seem to be no point in retiring any if Stockton's wasn't - and yet he wasn't the best college player we've had, at least not recognized nationally.

And beyond those two, I can't think of an obvious one if graduation is part of the equation. Because Dickau, Santangelo, Pangos, Calvery, Turiaf, - very hard to differentiate.

My vote for next would be Turiaf, has the play (IMO), the degree and the longevity/loyalty/ultimate Zag feel.

jazzdelmar
04-24-2016, 07:20 PM
If we could only have one, it has to be Burgess, the performance combined with story.

Would seem to be no point in retiring any if Stockton's wasn't - and yet he wasn't the best college player we've had, at least not recognized nationally.

And beyond those two, I can't think of an obvious one if graduation is part of the equation. Because Dickau, Santangelo, Pangos, Calvery, Turiaf, - very hard to differentiate.

My vote for next would be Turiaf, has the play (IMO), the degree and the longevity/loyalty/ultimate Zag feel.

Pangos? Really?

zagsfanforlife
04-24-2016, 08:15 PM
Pangos? Really?

Ya.. his criteria must be 4 year players, but if you put Pangos in and Morrison, who was National Player of the Year, doesnt make it, something wrong there.

ProVeeZag
04-24-2016, 08:52 PM
Turiaf would have my vote as would Ammo. Jerry Vermilion possibly given his insane rebound totals. There should be a minimum waiting period after leaving Gonzaga (10 years at least) before being eligible for jersey retirement as that adds to the prominence of being selected. Personally, I have reservations about retiring Dickau's jersey given he only played here for 2 seasons (although they were great seasons!).

Whoops! Frank Burgess is a lead pipe cinch for jersey retirement.

Zag 77
04-24-2016, 09:00 PM
Burgess was a United States Federal District Court Judge. John Stockton is a member of the NBA Hall of Fame. Assuming Ronny, Adam and Rob Sacre are not going to go to the NBA Hall of Fame, then maybe they can follow Burgess' example. They can enroll in law school and seek a federal judgeship in 20 years. Sacre and Ronny would have to become US citizens along the way. Of course, if Ronny, Adam or Sacre were elected to the US Senate or became State Governor, that would be good too. If Rob Sacre became Prime Minister of Canada, that would get him in, I think.

Unfortunately for everybody else, Burgess and Stockton have set the bar pretty darned high.

On the Womens' side, Vandersloot could do it, but I would think she needs an Olympic Gold Medal on her resume to get serious consideration.

ZagDad84
04-24-2016, 09:16 PM
Burgess was a United States Federal District Court Judge. John Stockton is a member of the NBA Hall of Fame. Assuming Ronny, Adam and Rob Sacre are not going to go to the NBA Hall of Fame, then maybe they can follow Burgess' example. They can enroll in law school and seek a federal judgeship in 20 years. Sacre and Ronny would have to become US citizens along the way. Of course, if Ronny, Adam or Sacre were elected to the US Senate or became State Governor, that would be good too. If Rob Sacre became Prime Minister of Canada, that would get him in, I think.

Unfortunately for everybody else, Burgess and Stockton have set the bar pretty darned high.

On the Womens' side, Vandersloot could do it, but I would think she needs an Olympic Gold Medal on her resume to get serious consideration.

Really???

Only person in NCAA history with 2,000 points and 1,000 assists is not good enough to retire her jersey?

Exactly what is your criteria for retiring a jersey? Hall of Fame in the NBA (or WNBA), championship titles, gold medals? In all honesty, do you retire the jersey for what they did while in the university or what they did after their collegiate ball or both? Stockton was good in collegiate but nothing spectacular. He made his mark in the NBA. Yes he has a gold medal that he did little to earn as he was injured. Ronny, Rob, Kelly, and even Daye were very good players at GU but did not stand out (stat wise) in college. In the NBA Daye was serviceable, Ronny was a great teammate, good person off the bench, never made an NBA All-Star team, has no rings. Rob has earned a good living riding the pine in L.A. and playing as a back-up. Morrison, won the scoring title while in college, and has a ring that he did nothing to earn. Amazing that they want you to play defense in the NBA.

At least in Vandersloot, you have someone who has done something nobody else in college BB has done, she has made the NBA All-Star team and has started and continues to start for the Chicago Sky and arguably was the best point guard in the WNBA last year and she has helped her team make the WNBA final. Not to bad for only 5 years in the league. I don't see any men mentioned above that have anywhere near as good a resume as Sloot.

ZagDad

MDABE80
04-24-2016, 09:51 PM
She'd qualify......superior player and person with awards galore to show she's a good candidate

DixieZag
04-24-2016, 11:13 PM
Pangos? Really?

Led them to first No. 1 ranking, No. 1 seed, back to the E8, all time 3 pt leader, 4 year starter, ... it would take a couple decades of looking back. It's not that absurd a thought.

Besides, Turiaf has my vote. First real NBA prospect in the "modern" era, came halfway across the world to become the ultimate Zag, had a heart so big they had to open him up to tie it down, and came back to still be playing in the NBA, is loved wherever he goes, still keeps in close touch...dunno, a lot gets thrown out when Burgess and Stockton set the standard.

Bogozags
04-25-2016, 04:27 AM
If the criteria for retiring a jersey is based upon accomplishment on the court, then IMO Vermillion's and Vandersloot's jerseys should be the next ones in line to be retired.

Others on the list that should be considered in the future would be: Morrison, Turiaf and Dickau.

You might also consider: Calvary (for the rebound/dunk that took us to our 1st EE), Olynyk (for one of the greatest, single seasons in GU History, where he carried us to our 1st #1 ranking in the polls) and Pangos (for his leadership and consistent play for his entire career).

TexasZagFan
04-25-2016, 05:10 AM
Interesting thought. Morrison would be the next logical retiree. National player is the year is a pretty big deal. If Sabonis had stayed another year or two, he'd be up there as well. I like keeping it exclusive. Olynyk is another who is near the top of the list. All American, also academic AA IIRC. Took the team to its first #1 seed.

No way on Olynyk, he had one good year. Ammo's resume is deserving.

Outraged
04-25-2016, 06:04 AM
Calvary frahm santamglo Spink Floyd and dockside. They got us here. They're our Abe Lincoln's.

GoZag
04-25-2016, 06:26 AM
Vermillion's and Vandersloot's jerseys should be retired before any others at this point.

tyra
04-25-2016, 06:33 AM
I'm with GoZag: Vermillion and Vandersloot for sure. I'd add Burgess also. Each was extraordinarily special. (In fact, not retiring Jerry V's before he passes is a rare stain on an otherwise world class program.)

bigblahla
04-25-2016, 06:47 AM
Really???

Only person in NCAA history with 2,000 points and 1,000 assists is not good enough to retire her jersey?

Exactly what is your criteria for retiring a jersey? Hall of Fame in the NBA (or WNBA), championship titles, gold medals? In all honesty, do you retire the jersey for what they did while in the university or what they did after their collegiate ball or both? Stockton was good in collegiate but nothing spectacular. He made his mark in the NBA. Yes he has a gold medal that he did little to earn as he was injured. Ronny, Rob, Kelly, and even Daye were very good players at GU but did not stand out (stat wise) in college. In the NBA Daye was serviceable, Ronny was a great teammate, good person off the bench, never made an NBA All-Star team, has no rings. Rob has earned a good living riding the pine in L.A. and playing as a back-up. Morrison, won the scoring title while in college, and has a ring that he did nothing to earn. Amazing that they want you to play defense in the NBA.

At least in Vandersloot, you have someone who has done something nobody else in college BB has done, she has made the NBA All-Star team and has started and continues to start for the Chicago Sky and arguably was the best point guard in the WNBA last year and she has helped her team make the WNBA final. Not to bad for only 5 years in the league. I don't see any men mentioned above that have anywhere near as good a resume as Sloot.

ZagDad

Agree 100% on Sloot....one of the best open court passers I have ever seen....and I've watched and played for over 50 years....KG can thank his lucky stars cause Sloot put Las Zagas on the map to stay...a no brainer to me...

Go!! Zags!!!

Bogozags
04-25-2016, 07:03 AM
I'm with GoZag: Vermillion and Vandersloot for sure. I'd add Burgess also. Each was extraordinarily special. (In fact, not retiring Jerry V's before he passes is a rare stain on an otherwise world class program.)

I believe Burgess' and Stockton's jerseys are already retired...:o

GoZag
04-25-2016, 07:33 AM
I believe Burgess' and Stockton's jerseys are already retired...:o

That is what I thought also

LongIslandZagFan
04-25-2016, 07:35 AM
JMHO... Sloot is about the ONLY one right now that would qualify. Over Ammo, DD, you name it... But I think she needs to finish her pro career before it happens.

I think it is pretty established that the bar is very very high for it to happen... otherwise there'd be more numbers hanging in the rafters. Keep it tough... JMHO.

Zagdog71
04-25-2016, 07:52 AM
I started this thread yesterday posing lots of questions. I'll weigh in now on some criteria.

I didn't realize that Jerry Krause was honored with a jersey. That is a great recognition. Stockton and Burgess already have retired jerseys (some folks don't seem to realize Burgess has.). Both seemingly put the bar very high for the next players to be selected. But I don't think the bar needs to be so high or take so long.

The criteria can't be uniform for each person. There needs to be several factors which on balance make a candidate superior. Players excel in different ways and paths and contributions. Have a ten year minimum waiting period. Require graduation but not four years on the court. Need stat record(s) of some kind and honor/recognition while playing at GU. The school doesn't need to consider players in chronological order (would not be a slight on someone who came later). “Zagness” is hard to define but we all feel that is an important part of the criteria. This should be an exclusive group but just two players at present seems much too exclusive.

A clear choice to me is Ronny Turiaf.

LongIslandZagFan
04-25-2016, 08:19 AM
I started this thread yesterday posing lots of questions. I'll weigh in now on some criteria.

I didn't realize that Jerry Krause was honored with a jersey. That is a great recognition. Stockton and Burgess already have retired jerseys (some folks don't seem to realize Burgess has.). Both seemingly put the bar very high for the next players to be selected. But I don't think the bar needs to be so high or take so long.

The criteria can't be uniform for each person. There needs to be several factors which on balance make a candidate superior. Players excel in different ways and paths and contributions. Have a ten year minimum waiting period. Require graduation but not four years on the court. Need stat record(s) of some kind and honor/recognition while playing at GU. The school doesn't need to consider players in chronological order (would not be a slight on someone who came later). “Zagness” is hard to define but we all feel that is an important part of the criteria. This should be an exclusive group but just two players at present seems much too exclusive.

A clear choice to me is Ronny Turiaf.

I also think there needs to be some level of achievement post GU (not necessarily in basketball)... I'd even say 15 years post grad/leaving.

Once and Future Zag
04-25-2016, 08:28 AM
I also think there needs to be some level of achievement post GU (not necessarily in basketball)... I'd even say 15 years post grad/leaving.

I think it was mentioned by Roth way back when, that Burgess and Stockton were not honored just for their time at GU, but for what they did after graduation.

With all due respect and fondness to the many great players we've had, those are the two that stand out in their post-GU careers as well as being great players on the court during college.

kitzbuel
04-25-2016, 08:43 AM
The 99ers would have to be repped, maybe as a unit, then DD and Ammo of course, then KO. Keep the standards high.

I, in my opinion, would put Kelly in front of DD and Ammo. Combination of team success, personal success, professional success, and academic success is very impressive. And a four year (and RS) player. What a great combination of dedication and success. Gonzaga could not ask for a better representative.

bartruff1
04-25-2016, 08:55 AM
The OJ syndrome ....it is better to wait till they are dead.....or at least pass the age of passions....like me...

Vandersloot is probably a lock.

At some point in the distant future, I could see Pangos being honored , he is in the career record books and .....his future after basketball looks very bright...to me...

gonzagafan62
04-25-2016, 10:35 AM
[QUOTE=kitzbuel;1214185]I, in my opinion, would put Kelly in front of DD and Ammo. Combination of team success, personal success, professional success, and academic success is very impressive. And a four year (and RS) player. What a great combination of dedication and success. Gonzaga could not ask for a better representative.[

maynard g krebs
04-25-2016, 11:10 AM
IMO Adam should be the one sure thing, down the line. KO, one good year isn't enough; career achievements of Turiaf, Calvary, Santangelo, Frahm are far greater than KO's imo. Had he come back for sr year then yes.

ZagsGoZags
04-25-2016, 11:43 AM
this topic was done on another thread a few years ago.
as I recall KO had not blown up yet and Ammo was head and shoulders above all others, for pure college basketball contribution.
My opinion, is that waiting to see if a person had a distinguished career and life before making the decision, is throwing too many criteria in there.
GU is not the pros, it is a D1 bb team in the NCAA, and retiring jerseys I think should be based mostly on performance while playing in that uniform.
I mean what if Marquise Carter or Ira Brown blew up in the pros and started for a top team for many years, like John Stockton ( realize JS achieved more while in college). Do you think that should place his number from the rafters? I don't. I don't want non basketball criteria to play a huge role, unless it is for criminal behavior like Barry Bonds or Pete Rose or Lance Armstrong.
The wiser, more experienced, members of this message board, at the time of the last thread on this topic, seemed to say give it at least 20 years after 2006 for Ammo, and probably more.
One person's view ....

zagsfanforlife
04-25-2016, 12:24 PM
IMO Adam should be the one sure thing, down the line. KO, one good year isn't enough; career achievements of Turiaf, Calvary, Santangelo, Frahm are far greater than KO's imo. Had he come back for sr year then yes.

I dont know if its a personality thing and Adam wasn't too well liked around the Spokane area for his different views and such or his lack of defense on the court, but it is amazing to me how retiring jerseys wouldnt start with Morrison. The guy was NATIONAL Player of the Year, and had three very good- great seasons while at GU. Seems like he gets a lack of respect on these boards. The guy in college was SUPERSTAR/ ROCKSTAR.

GoZags
04-25-2016, 01:34 PM
Give it 20 years .... for Courtney. Let's see what happens on the Men's side the next decade or so. In my opinion no Zag has approached Burgess and Stockton ... yet. I don't mind that it's a pretty high bar.

http://www.gonzagabulletin.com/article_2daec858-27a3-5848-9f09-83867c157a96.html

gonzagafan62
04-25-2016, 03:01 PM
The only ones I'd even consider are Vandersloot, Turiaf, and Vermillion. Vermillion IMO is way overdue. Vandersloot for obvious reasons. AMMO, Dickau, Olynyk Pangos were all great in their own right. But not retire jersey at GU great.

Turiaf is one id consider. One, he risked his NBA career to come back on senior night with a walk on. Heart. Two he's been nothing but class. Three he's one that always shines big time in big moments (besides that one game he got screwed) he may not have a good heart in literal cases but he has heart where it counts. Nobody has represented GU better in the last 15 years than Ronny. JMO. Desire, Will, Winning, Class. Great on and off court and a great NBA career. Also lots of sacrifice.

One more. I wouldn't mind seeing a jersey #99 retired for the 99 team

Martin Centre Mad Man
04-25-2016, 03:16 PM
Vandersloot and Brown would be my next two selections.

http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?25530-Retire-Jeff-Brown-s-Number

ZagsGoZags
04-25-2016, 03:31 PM
Adam Morrison raised the national level of recognition of the Zags, while in college, more than Dan, Turiaf, and KO. Following his good years we started attracting more top recruits, like Bouldin, Gray, Daye, Sacre, etc. A big part of the reason the zags became an admired national program is the press attention paid to Adam, with his diabetes, and fiery competitiveness. I don't know if there has ever been a better go to guy since 1999 than Ammo. While at GU, he was the Elvis, or the Beatles, even compared to John Stockton (who did not make a national splash the size of Ammo while at GU). When mid majors usually slide back into obscurity, this Spokane native high school recruit catapulted us to #2 or #3 and kept the national limelight on our program about the time it really needed it. I think a lot of people are forgetting how high our expectations, and hopes, became with Ammo, Batista and Ravio. It was proof we were not a flash in the pan like Butler, or SF in the 50's. Part of the reason the loss to UCLA in the Sweet 16 was such a terrible blow was because the whole nation was watching Ammo vs Reddick, and zag fans were hoping to get to elite 8 or Final Four under his leadership.
My opinion of who deserves the next jersey retired, and I am only using basketball achievements while wearing the number.

10 Ammo
5 Vermillion
5 Turiaf
4 KO
4 Domas
4 Dan D

I also agree with Go Zags that the bar should be extremely high.
I just don't comprehend how he is not head and shoulders above all others at this point.
It is also going to seem logical, a few decades down the road, to have at least one or two jerseys hanging from those years from 1999 to ? 2030 (whatever), that is from that time we became a nationally known highlighted program. It would be very ironic to have Burgess, Stockton and Vermillon (sp?) hanging, with nobody from our glory years hanging.

I mean of course when you are a nationally recognized program that Dances and gets ranked regularly, of course, more banners can be expected. I don't see why we are so much more fussy and elitist than other high programs. Let's take Duke for example, where JJ Reddick's number is already hanging from the ceiling.

"Though there is no ‘official’ criteria to have a jersey retired at Duke, a player must achieve at a national level — earn National Player of the Year or National Defensive Player of the Year honors, set an NCAA record, win a gold medal representing his country in the Olympics or earn All-America recognition. What distinguishes Duke’s retired jersey players from many other schools is the main criteria. No jersey will be retired at Duke unless the player has earned his degree.
After Mike Krzyzewski’s arrival in 1980 and Duke’s dominant run that began in the middle of that decade, nine players had their jerseys retired, starting with Dawkins in 1986 and ending with J.J. Redick in 2007."

http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/media-guides/mbb/2014-15/Tradition%20106-120.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=4200

Wringing our hands over whether Ammo should be hanging, just seems like stuck in some little eddy at the edge of the river. If he doesn't hang next, I don't think anybody else should be hoisted aloft. Maybe some of hand-wringers when they reach their 90's, with more perspective, will agree. I would bet anything a lot of visiting teams and players are surprised Morrison isn't up there already, or that there are only two, and none of from our glory years.

k - rant over

DixieZag
04-25-2016, 04:04 PM
Just a question.

Does anyone know for certain (perhaps even the A.D. doesn't have a policy yet) whether a retired men's jersey also carries over to the women's team and vice versa. If we retired Vanderslots, does it impact the men?

I would vote yes, it should. But, I have no idea. Does anyone?

jimmycarter
04-25-2016, 04:23 PM
Retiring a number is not something to be taken lightly. After all, there are only 37 possible numbers that a college player can wear (and 3 of which are already retired at GU). If we left it to us fans, we'd run out of numbers!

CDC84
04-25-2016, 06:11 PM
For a school like Gonzaga, being a universal first team AA player gets you a banner. That's my view. Even if it's for just one season. It's such a rare achievement. Obviously, there are other reasons to retire numbers besides that, but Dickau, Morrison and Olynyk deserve to have their jerseys up there.

willandi
04-25-2016, 06:19 PM
Retiring a number is not something to be taken lightly. After all, there are only 37 possible numbers that a college player can wear (and 3 of which are already retired at GU). If we left it to us fans, we'd run out of numbers!

Are you sure about that? The Zags have 4 single digit numbers and go up to Triano with 55.

Zags_Fanatic
04-25-2016, 06:36 PM
Are you sure about that? The Zags have 4 single digit numbers and go up to Triano with 55. Basketball jerseys can only have digits of 5 or less so refs can use hand gestures to assign fouls. So 00, 0-5, 10-15, 20-25, 30-35, 40-45 and 50-55 for 37 total.

fangirl
04-25-2016, 07:34 PM
First time poster here and felt compelled to reply after reading the 4:30 PM post by ZagsGoZags. You and I must have been separated at birth as you have articulated all the reasons I believe Adam should be the next Zag to have his jersey retired. Ten years and ten teams later, that 2005-2006 team is the one my family and I enjoyed watching the most. Adam Morrison was the primary reason for that. He made every game "must see" TV and elevated Gonzaga's profile to a huge national level.
The university has benefited in countless ways because of him, in my opinion. Hopefully his jersey will be hanging sooner vs later at The Kennel.

Zagceo
04-25-2016, 08:19 PM
I dont know if its a personality thing and Adam wasn't too well liked around the Spokane area for his different views and such or his lack of defense on the court, but it is amazing to me how retiring jerseys wouldnt start with Morrison. The guy was NATIONAL Player of the Year, and had three very good- great seasons while at GU. Seems like he gets a lack of respect on these boards. The guy in college was SUPERSTAR/ ROCKSTAR.

Adam was a great basketball player that always looked like he smelled something bad.......

Ronny was a great basketball player that always looked like he smelled something good.....

bartruff1
04-25-2016, 08:53 PM
I am pretty sure that character will be a very important component of any future consideration....

zagdontzig
04-25-2016, 09:05 PM
I'll get crucified but I like Davidson's requirement that you graduate, but it is strange Curry's jersey doesn't hang.

DixieZag
04-25-2016, 09:18 PM
I'll get crucified.

Why do you think that? I think a good portion agree with you. Personally, I'd probably be fine with whatever they decide. When it comes time, they'll talk out the pros/cons and I suspect they'll make the right call whatever that may be. Just my op.

bartruff1
04-25-2016, 09:30 PM
Get a rope !!!

ProVeeZag
04-25-2016, 09:38 PM
Basketball jerseys can only have digits of 5 or less so refs can use hand gestures to assign fouls. So 00, 0-5, 10-15, 20-25, 30-35, 40-45 and 50-55 for 37 total.

Funny, in watching basketball for over 50 years, I never had heard this before now. Makes sense, but seems odd it hasn't been mentioned somewhere along the line by some announcer trying to fill time in an 84-37 blowout. Come to think of it, don't know as I've ever seen anyone wear #29 or 39, etc. Now we know why. Thx Fanatic!

Zagceo
04-25-2016, 09:53 PM
Funny, in watching basketball for over 50 years, I never had heard this before now. Makes sense, but seems odd it hasn't been mentioned somewhere along the line by some announcer trying to fill time in an 84-37 blowout. Come to think of it, don't know as I've ever seen anyone wear #29 or 39, etc. Now we know why. Thx Fanatic!

the pro refs are so good they can use two hands for 1 number...unlike college refs:-D

23dpg
04-25-2016, 10:22 PM
I'll get crucified but I like Davidson's requirement that you graduate, but it is strange Curry's jersey doesn't hang.

Nope, I like it too. Curry is currently my favorite player in the NBA but I respect Davidson all the more for requiring a graduation to be mandatory for a jersey to be retired.

I suspect Gonzaga has the same standards. (Still time to get that degree AMMO)

Sarenyon
04-25-2016, 11:25 PM
AMMO did graduate, 2 years ago, while he was a grad assistant coach.

jim77
04-26-2016, 12:18 AM
The next inductions should be BOTH Ammo and Vermillion. In fact, they should just go ahead and do both on the same night. Its one thing to be the national player of the year...its quite another to do it as a type 1 diabetic. Morrison is the Greatest shot creator in GU history..PERIOD. Mr, Vermillion's rebound numbers are so ridiculous that they may be out of reach.

jbslicer
04-26-2016, 06:49 AM
Give it 20 years .... for Courtney. Let's see what happens on the Men's side the next decade or so. In my opinion no Zag has approached Burgess and Stockton ... yet. I don't mind that it's a pretty high bar.

http://www.gonzagabulletin.com/article_2daec858-27a3-5848-9f09-83867c157a96.html

GU should retire Vandersloot's number this year. Waiting 20 years is kind of dumb for her.

Zagdog71
04-26-2016, 07:01 AM
Not putting one player ahead of another. Many “qualified” people to honor. However, we and GU should not overlook Jeff Brown (1991-94). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Brown_%28basketball%29

In 2010, Martin Centre Mad Man made a very strong case for Jeff Brown. http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?25530-Retire-Jeff-Brown-s-Number

“Gonzaga basketball has retired two numbers in the great history of the program. Those numbers belonged to two outstanding students who were among the best players ever to wear a Gonzaga Uniform. Not surprisingly, they are John Stockton's and Frank Burgess's numbers. Stockton was an Academic All-American whose accomplishments as an Olympian and professional basketball player will probably never be equalled by another Gonzaga player. Frank Burgess led the nation in scoring as a senior and earned second-team All America honors. After a brief career in professional basketball, he returned to Spokane to earn a law degree from Gonzaga and was later appointed to serve as a Federal Judge.

Jeff Brown's record as a student and athlete is worthy of inclusion in that elite fraternity. He was the Zags' best player in the early 1990s. He was the WCC player of the year as a senior, lead the league in scoring twice and was the Zags' top scorer and rebounder for three consecutive seasons. He earned All WCC honors three times.

His academic credentials were even more impressive. He was a Second-Team Academic All American as a Sophomore and First-Team Academic All American as a Junior and Senior. He was named as the NCAA Men's Basketball Scholar-Athlete of the Year as a senior. That award was given to Jeff Brown because he was the best overall student/player in the country. He then graduated with honors from the Gonzaga Business School.

I believe that the National Scholar Athlete of the Year Award was the single biggest accomplishment of any Gonzaga player in history - greater than any First Team All America Honors, greater than any scoring titles, greater than any WCC Player of the Year honors. If the university truly wants to honor those who excel on the classroom and on the court, there is no better player to honor than Jeff Brown.

It took more than forty years for Gonzaga to retire Frank Burgess's number. That was an oversight that should have been corrected decades ago. We should not force Jeff Brown to wait that long for an honor that he so richly deserves.”

Zag 77
04-26-2016, 08:30 AM
Vermillion's rebound numbers are so ridiculous that they may be out of reach.

There are some of us that scratch our heads and wonder who was compiling stats in ancient times. It would look really silly if somebody were inducted and research later showed the numbers to be unreliable.

GoZags
04-26-2016, 08:31 AM
It took more than forty years for Gonzaga to retire Frank Burgess's number.

That quote above pretty much sums up the philosophy of Gonzaga vis a vis the importance of "retiring" numbers ... at least to this point. This thread topic makes for interesting off-season discussion ... with many "weighing" in with good insights and suggestions. But the fact of the matter is this hasn't been an "official" discussion item for well over half a decade.

That WILL change with the construction of the C.A.A. (Center for Athletic Achievement) which will hopefully break ground in '17. Here is some info from earlier this year on the CAA
http://www.gonzagabulletin.com/sports/article_9d7b3794-c000-11e5-a19b-17d81d8e3449.html

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/gonz/genrel/auto_pdf/2014-15/misc_non_event/center-athletic-achievement.pdf

Part of the Center for Athletic Achievement will be a Gonzaga Sports "Hall of Fame". I'm looking forward to it. With an actual Hall of Fame ... things like retiring numbers will be much more in the forefront than it's been in the past. The two Zags who's numbers hang in the rafters are richly deserving ... as will the future jersey numbers that will eventually hang alongside.

But ... we shouldn't hold our breath waiting for the announcement of which one is next. It's my belief that we're several years away (at a minimum) of that taking place. GoZags

23dpg
04-26-2016, 08:57 AM
AMMO did graduate, 2 years ago, while he was a grad assistant coach.

Great news! Then it's AMMO for me hands down. Vermillion put up crazy numbers in a different era. I have no way to know how important he was to the program.
Vandersloot would be my number two.

webspinnre
04-26-2016, 09:09 AM
I agree that Courtney is an obvious choice, but also agree that I'd prefer to wait 10-20 years for anyone after their graduating Gonzaga before retiring. With the new Hall of Fame coming in, I could also see doing kind of a two-tier thing. First level is in HOF, but # not retired. Lots of good candidates here. 2nd level, much smaller, is in HOF and # retired. Right now we've got 2, maybe over the next 10+ years we add Courtney, and possibly Adam or Dickau or Vermillion.

Bogozags
04-26-2016, 09:34 AM
I agree that Courtney is an obvious choice, but also agree that I'd prefer to wait 10-20 years for anyone after their graduating Gonzaga before retiring. With the new Hall of Fame coming in, I could also see doing kind of a two-tier thing. First level is in HOF, but # not retired. Lots of good candidates here. 2nd level, much smaller, is in HOF and # retired. Right now we've got 2, maybe over the next 10+ years we add Courtney, and possibly Adam or Dickau or Vermillion.


I like your idea of a two tier HOF...

Now, one more thought, are we omitting significant athletes that have contributed in other sports or is this strictly women's and men's basketball?

Zagdog71
04-26-2016, 09:52 AM
Thanks GoZags for the information on the CAA. I wasn't aware of it coming. It will be an appropriate place to have many players recognized. The history of each decade and various teams can be highlighted.

However, I still think we have a few “outstanding” players who should be honored inside McCarthy.


That quote above pretty much sums up the philosophy of Gonzaga vis a vis the importance of "retiring" numbers ... at least to this point. This thread topic makes for interesting off-season discussion ... with many "weighing" in with good insights and suggestions. But the fact of the matter is this hasn't been an "official" discussion item for well over half a decade.

That WILL change with the construction of the C.A.A. (Center for Athletic Achievement) which will hopefully break ground in '17. Here is some info from earlier this year on the CAA
http://www.gonzagabulletin.com/sports/article_9d7b3794-c000-11e5-a19b-17d81d8e3449.html

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/gonz/genrel/auto_pdf/2014-15/misc_non_event/center-athletic-achievement.pdf

Part of the Center for Athletic Achievement will be a Gonzaga Sports "Hall of Fame". I'm looking forward to it. With an actual Hall of Fame ... things like retiring numbers will be much more in the forefront than it's been in the past. The two Zags who's numbers hang in the rafters are richly deserving ... as will the future jersey numbers that will eventually hang alongside.

But ... we shouldn't hold our breath waiting for the announcement of which one is next. It's my belief that we're several years away (at a minimum) of that taking place. GoZags

GoZags
04-26-2016, 10:35 AM
Thanks GoZags for the information on the CAA. I wasn't aware of it coming. It will be an appropriate place to have many players recognized. The history of each decade and various teams can be highlighted.

However, I still think we have a few “outstanding” players who should be honored inside McCarthy.

We actually agree ... perhaps you'd misread this passage from my post ...


With an actual Hall of Fame ... things like retiring numbers will be much more in the forefront than it's been in the past. The two Zags who's numbers hang in the rafters are richly deserving ... as will the future jersey numbers that will eventually hang alongside.

DixieZag
04-26-2016, 11:24 AM
We actually agree ... perhaps you'd misread this passage from my post ...

It makes perfect sense to me that they should table the discussion until they sort out exactly how they want the CAA organized.

ZagsGoZags
04-26-2016, 12:32 PM
I don't fully understand these hesitations to hoist Adam Morrison:

"I, in my opinion, would put Kelly in front of DD and Ammo. Combination of team success, personal success, professional success, and academic success is very impressive. And a four year (and RS) player."

KELLY AND AMMO WERE BOTH JUNIORS, NO? (not shouting, just capitalizing to emphasize angle of narration)

"Give it 20 years ."

WHAT IS THE REASON. JJ REDDICK WAS HOISTED IN 2007. WHAT HARM HAS COME OF THAT?

"I dont know if its a personality thing and Adam wasn't too well liked around the Spokane area for his different views and such or his lack of defense on the court, but it is amazing to me how retiring jerseys wouldnt start with Morrison. The guy was NATIONAL Player of the Year, and had three very good- great seasons while at GU. Seems like he gets a lack of respect on these boards. The guy in college was SUPERSTAR/ ROCKSTAR.
Adam was a great basketball player that always looked like he smelled something bad.......

Ronny was a great basketball player that always looked like he smelled something good....."

and

"I am pretty sure that character will be a very important component of any future consideration..."

CHARACTER. AMMO WILL DO FINE. HE OVERCAME DIABETES TO PLAY AT TOP LEVEL, HIS MOTOR NEVER STOPPED, HE WANTED THE BALL GO-TO TIME, HE HELD TO HIS UNIQUE OPINIONS IN SPITE OF SOCIAL PRESSURES TO CONFORM, WAS MORE OF A GYM RAT THAN MANY OF HIS TEAM-MATES, HE FOLLOWS HIS OWN DRUMMER. DENNIS RODMAN'S JERSEY HANGS AND HE HAD DUBIOUS CHARACTER. NOT BEING WELL GROOMED OR GREAT SOCIAL SKILLS, IS NOT LACK OF CHARACTER.

GoZags
04-26-2016, 01:09 PM
I don't fully understand these hesitations to hoist Adam Morrison:

I, in my opinion, would put Kelly in front of DD and Ammo. Combination of team success, personal success, professional success, and academic success is very impressive. And a four year (and RS) player.

KELLY AND AMMO WERE BOTH JUNIORS, NO? (not shouting, just capitalizing to emphasize angle of narration)

Give it 20 years .

WHAT IS THE REASON. JJ REDDICK WAS HOISTED IN 2007. WHAT HARM HAS COME OF THAT?

I dont know if its a personality thing and Adam wasn't too well liked around the Spokane area for his different views and such or his lack of defense on the court, but it is amazing to me how retiring jerseys wouldnt start with Morrison. The guy was NATIONAL Player of the Year, and had three very good- great seasons while at GU. Seems like he gets a lack of respect on these boards. The guy in college was SUPERSTAR/ ROCKSTAR.
Adam was a great basketball player that always looked like he smelled something bad.......

Ronny was a great basketball player that always looked like he smelled something good.....

I am pretty sure that character will be a very important component of any future consideration...

CHARACTER. AMMO WILL DO FINE. HE OVERCAME DIABETES TO PLAY AT TOP LEVEL, HIS MOTOR NEVER STOPPED, HE WANTED THE BALL GO-TO TIME, HE HELD TO HIS UNIQUE OPINIONS IN SPITE OF SOCIAL PRESSURES TO CONFORM, WAS MORE OF A GYM RAT THAN MANY OF HIS TEAM-MATES, HE FOLLOWS HIS OWN DRUMMER. DENNIS RODMAN'S JERSEY HANGS AND HE HAD DUBIOUS CHARACTER. NOT BEING WELL GROOMED IS NOT LACK OF CHARACTER.

It is my belief that the next two jerseys to hang in the K2 rafters will be Adam's and Courtney's. And ... it's my belief that it'll be at least half a decade before it happens. Who cares what Duke's traditions are vis a vis Reddick and any other.

As has been discussed in this thread ... retiring numbers and hanging jerseys has NEVER been a priority at Gonzaga. It took 40+ years for Burgess and 20+ years for Stockton. There is a huge effort underway to honor many great Zags (individuals and teams) of the past ... in all sports ... with the construction of the C.A.A.

This thread is good for discussion purposes ... and one of the links above (the 2nd C.A.A. link http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/gonz/genrel/auto_pdf/2014-15/misc_non_event/center-athletic-achievement.pdf which I'll insert again here and copy/paste a snippet below) outlines how individuals can help get the Center built. Seems to me the writer of a huge check "could" have some actual input (or at least a voice on a committee) as to who's actually "next".


Naming Opportunities
$10 million Exclusive naming opportunity for the Center for Athletic Achievement
$5 million Exclusive naming opportunity for the Second Floor Events Space
$5 million Exclusive naming opportunity for the Academic Support Center

webspinnre
04-26-2016, 01:55 PM
This thread is good for discussion purposes ... and one of the links above (the 2nd C.A.A. link http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/gonz/genrel/auto_pdf/2014-15/misc_non_event/center-athletic-achievement.pdf which I'll insert again here and copy/paste a snippet below) outlines how individuals can help get the Center built. Seems to me the writer of a huge check "could" have some actual input (or at least a voice on a committee) as to who's actually "next".

So, you're saying that we should take up a collection? ;)

ZagDad84
04-26-2016, 02:13 PM
It is my belief that the next two jerseys to hang in the K2 rafters will be Adam's and Courtney's. And ... it's my belief that it'll be at least half a decade before it happens. Who cares what Duke's traditions are vis a vis Reddick and any other.

As has been discussed in this thread ... retiring numbers and hanging jerseys has NEVER been a priority at Gonzaga. It took 40+ years for Burgess and 20+ years for Stockton. There is a huge effort underway to honor many great Zags (individuals and teams) of the past ... in all sports ... with the construction of the C.A.A.

This thread is good for discussion purposes ... and one of the links above (the 2nd C.A.A. link http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/gonz/genrel/auto_pdf/2014-15/misc_non_event/center-athletic-achievement.pdf which I'll insert again here and copy/paste a snippet below) outlines how individuals can help get the Center built. Seems to me the writer of a huge check "could" have some actual input (or at least a voice on a committee) as to who's actually "next".


Thanks for the links to the CAA. Given the information on the CAA, it is my opinion, that many (perhaps most) of the people mentioned in this thread will be honored in the HOF contained in the CAA. I think this is where the honor for the majority of these people should be.

IMO, the retiring of the jersey should be reserved for those people who do something extraordinary. For example, in my rafters, simply being an All-American would not qualify you to have your jersey retired. No KO, DD, KP, RS, RT. These players embody what it means to be a zag and they should be honored in the HOF, but not have their jersey's retired.

Adam as National Player of the Year and Courtney as the Frances Pomeroy Naismith Award winner for best player 5'-8" and under, , Nancy Lieberman Award for most outstanding Division 1 point guard and the first ever Division I player — man or woman — to notch more than 2000 points and 1000 assists in a career both should have their jerseys retired.

I agree that the process moves slowly and I don't mind if we wait under those in question are retired before retiring the jersey's. However, when the CAA is built, I think inclusion into the HOF could occur at any time.

ZagDad

Bogozags
04-26-2016, 03:00 PM
I hate to seem stupid but again is the HOF and jersey retirement strictly for Bball players meaning all other sports are not included or do have they have their own HOF?

ZagsGoZags
04-26-2016, 04:09 PM
While waiting for my savings to accumulate an extra 5 million,
I am just grateful for the zag board, polite and educated moderators, a place to talk zags anything, and get good feedback on my BB opinions, and just glad the GU Board exists. Go zag nation, we are in some great years, but perhaps our best years are still in front of us. Exciting time to be a fan.
Also I like the idea of not hanging jerseys unless bachelors degree earned - if it even helped motivate one player, like Daye, KO, Domas, Adam, etc. to stay one more year, the policy would be worth it IMHO. Plus as the quality of our recruiting continues to improve, and we get more and more NBA bound players, the policy might have a small effect on one of them. Or at least bring them back to the Spokane zag family in later years, finishing up degrees.

ZagDad84
04-26-2016, 06:57 PM
I hate to seem stupid but again is the HOF and jersey retirement strictly for Bball players meaning all other sports are not included or do have they have their own HOF?

Hey Bogo:

My guess is that the CAA and the HOF will be for any GU athlete. I would assume that any sport can retire a jersey, but the jersey would hang in the stadium where that team plays. For example, it would not make sense to hang a baseball jersey in the Kennel.

My $0.02

ZagDad

jim77
04-26-2016, 11:05 PM
It is my belief that the next two jerseys to hang in the K2 rafters will be Adam's and Courtney's. And ... it's my belief that it'll be at least half a decade before it happens. Who cares what Duke's traditions are vis a vis Reddick and any other.

As has been discussed in this thread ... retiring numbers and hanging jerseys has NEVER been a priority at Gonzaga. It took 40+ years for Burgess and 20+ years for Stockton. There is a huge effort underway to honor many great Zags (individuals and teams) of the past ... in all sports ... with the construction of the C.A.A.

This thread is good for discussion purposes ... and one of the links above (the 2nd C.A.A. link http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/gonz/genrel/auto_pdf/2014-15/misc_non_event/center-athletic-achievement.pdf which I'll insert again here and copy/paste a snippet below) outlines how individuals can help get the Center built. Seems to me the writer of a huge check "could" have some actual input (or at least a voice on a committee) as to who's actually "next".


Just wanted to add to this.....The two gentlemen above are more than worthy of their jerseys being hung up. However, the last nearly two decades have produced a run UNEQUALED by any other ZAG era. In fact, by VERY few teams in college BB PERIOD. So to sit here and act like were not sure if ANYBODY from "THE" era should have a jersey hanging is a joke. THE ERA ought to have more jerseys than currently hang....and certainly more than all the rest of GU basketball history combined. AMMO....Vermillion...BROWN....TURIAF...CAVALRY...V ANDERSLOOT...ought to all be pasted in the near future. One last thing to add.....if the player whose jersey is hung in the raters gives permission...that jersey can be worn by a current player.

Bogozags
04-27-2016, 08:57 AM
Hey Bogo:

My guess is that the CAA and the HOF will be for any GU athlete. I would assume that any sport can retire a jersey, but the jersey would hang in the stadium where that team plays. For example, it would not make sense to hang a baseball jersey in the Kennel.

My $0.02

ZagDad

ZagDad,

Thanks for taking the time to explain...truly appreciate your response.