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Norwester
03-13-2016, 10:20 PM
“Our league needs to really step back and take notice,” he said. “It’s time for some of these other institutions to start picking it up. They’re really dragging the top three down.”


“We need to talk long and hard about (NCAA Tournament) money distribution that we’re making for the league,” Few said, “and if they’re not spending it on basketball, we don’t need to be sponsoring swimming at those schools or whatever they’ve got going. They’re not all in.”

Amen. There is no reason why Gonzaga should be subsidizing Santa Clara, USF, Portland and the other "participation trophy" programs in the WCC.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/mar/13/blanchette-chilling-lesson-for-wcc/

hooter73
03-13-2016, 10:25 PM
Holy crap, someone, let alone Few, actually said it. Publicly. Wow.

23dpg
03-13-2016, 10:30 PM
Wow is right. Wow.

ProVeeZag
03-13-2016, 10:36 PM
Bravo, Coach Few! The "feedback" from the rest of the WCC should make for interesting reading.

ProjectMKUltra5
03-14-2016, 12:05 AM
So, so glad he came out and said this. I don't think it's a lot to ask of a school to simply care about it's basketball team and actually try

jpn17
03-14-2016, 01:12 AM
So, so glad he came out and said this. I don't think it's a lot to ask of a school to simply care about it's basketball team and actually try


Indeed. However as usual the fans of the bottom dwellers will fire back with the same tired argument of if you don't like it then leave (don't they wish) while they continue to watch mediocre at best basketball in gyms with sub 1K crowds unless they're playing Gonzaga.

Zagceo
03-14-2016, 01:43 AM
Indeed. However as usual the fans of the bottom dwellers will fire back with the same tired argument of if you don't like it then leave (don't they wish) while they continue to watch mediocre at best basketball in gyms with sub 1K crowds unless they're playing Gonzaga.

and sell tickets at a premium to every GU game.

jazzdelmar
03-14-2016, 03:53 AM
About f-ing time. The big question is: Is this a Few solo, one off or does it rep the thinking of the GU admin? Still, nothing but the darn truth. Go Coach!!! Now let's see Rose and RB echo it...

ZagsGoZags
03-14-2016, 04:39 AM
and sell tickets at a premium to every GU game.

This is what happened to me in the Portland game at Chiles.
The day the box office opened for tickets I was told the only way to get a ticket to the one zags game was to buy their
premium package of four home games (some of the better teams in the WCC) for over 80 dollars, probably about a hundred after fees. This was not a good deal for me because the zag game was the only game I wanted to see.
Instead I took the only other option, which was to wait until 11:00 a.m. on Jan 11 [over two months later] at ticketmaster to compete for the 200 remaining seats on zag night. I would not be surprised if other WCC schools also play their zag card to maximum financial advantage.

TexasZagFan
03-14-2016, 04:55 AM
About f-ing time. The big question is: Is this a Few solo, one off or does it rep the thinking of the GU admin? Still, nothing but the darn truth. Go Coach!!! Now let's see Rose and RB echo it...

Proof positive that Few lurks on the board, I posted this at 7:27 PM CDT yesterday:


I think it's past time for the WCC Commish to lay down the law on the weak sisters of the WCC. Doesn't she have some discretion on allocation of tournament money? There is no reason why all ten teams can't be better than top 200.

Or are the weak sisters content to just cash their checks?

What can I say, I was also deemed a "legend" by referee extraordinare Jimmy Clark... :lmao:

A to Zags
03-14-2016, 06:22 AM
Bravo, Coach Few! The "feedback" from the rest of the WCC should make for interesting reading.

I for one am not glad Few said this. While I agree that our conference is being hurt by poor performance of the league as a whole, criticizing those not doing well just doesn't feel right. Do you re ally think they are not trying? I think Keating, Walters, Wilson et al are doing the best they can under the rules to bring in the best they can. Is this really a matter of diverting gift money from the powerful to less popular sports? Maybe they aren't being "successful but this attitude that they aren't giving it the old college try bothers me.

LongIslandZagFan
03-14-2016, 06:36 AM
Go to the method that the big boys use... conference doles out tourney money to team that earned it... period.

DixieZag
03-14-2016, 06:41 AM
I for one am not glad Few said this. While I agree that our conference is being hurt by poor performance of the league as a whole, criticizing those not doing well just doesn't feel right. Do you re ally think they are not trying? I think Keating, Walters, Wilson et al are doing the best they can under the rules to bring in the best they can. Is this really a matter of diverting gift money from the powerful to less popular sports? Maybe they aren't being "successful but this attitude that they aren't giving it the old college try bothers me.

Of course the head coaches are trying to win, where the question comes in is what is that coach's recruiting budget, what do the locker rooms, weight rooms, arena look like? Those things matter to good athletes and though you may think it is misplaced priorities, every other place is doing it and you can't compete against them if you have sub-standard Division 1 resources.. His point was to money invested back into basketball, - are they paying assistants enough to stay? Things like that. He's not saying that having bad seasons is the problem. It's not having a commitment toward the future.

TrueLiz
03-14-2016, 06:41 AM
If I was another WCC coach, I would be happy about anything that might kick the leadership in the backside a but. I think the players and coaches are doing the best they can with what they have, but the administration needs to be on board for each school. Replacing coaches won't matter much if the program doesn't get support from higher up. Obviously GU & BYU have bigger budgets, but SMC has done a lot without a big budget (& if they only scheduled a good team or two out of state once in awhile...). I wouldn't be surprised if other coaches have said something to Mark Few about allocation of money coming in from basketball.

TexasZagFan
03-14-2016, 06:42 AM
I for one am not glad Few said this. While I agree that our conference is being hurt by poor performance of the league as a whole, criticizing those not doing well just doesn't feel right. Do you re ally think they are not trying? I think Keating, Walters, Wilson et al are doing the best they can under the rules to bring in the best they can. Is this really a matter of diverting gift money from the powerful to less popular sports? Maybe they aren't being "successful but this attitude that they aren't giving it the old college try bothers me.

It's more the school administrations than the coaches. Whereas Keating and Walters coached for nine and eight years, respectively, TCU pulled the plug on Trent Johnson after four.

There is no reason why every WCC school cannot be at least within the top-200.

webspinnre
03-14-2016, 07:08 AM
It's more the school administrations than the coaches. Whereas Keating and Walters coached for nine and eight years, respectively, TCU pulled the plug on Trent Johnson after four.

There is no reason why every WCC school cannot be at least within the top-200.

Exactly, I'm not looking for everyone team to be amazing, I just want every team to not be terrible.

northsidezagfan
03-14-2016, 07:24 AM
About time. We can't really leave, and it seems Few and the rest of the league know this.

Coach Crazy
03-14-2016, 07:27 AM
Glad this was said. At some point, you can't have bottom-feeding welfare administration's. It's disrespectful, and this conference could be a 3-bid league every year if we had more cooperation from those who are diverting funds, instead of committing to something more.

Ezag
03-14-2016, 07:29 AM
This board has been preaching this for 15 years, nice to see Few say it! WCC is terrible.

The top 3 teams have RPI of 76 or less. One team has an RPI of 129- Pepperdine and the rest are 200+ with San Diego over 300. Strength of schedule is just as bad

vandalzag
03-14-2016, 07:33 AM
Hopefully the AD's from St Mary's and BYU start chiming in as well. Simple plan set an RPI/BPI mark and if the teams fall below they do not get any tourney or tv money. Reward the schools the reinvest in the programs.

rennis
03-14-2016, 07:35 AM
He's right of course.

OTOH, if GU had controlled its own fate a bit better and beaten A&M or Arizona or UCLA or SMU I don't think they're an 11 seed either.

Alum08
03-14-2016, 07:43 AM
I really wish the WCC hadn't added Pacific. It takes away two much more interesting games. It also makes scheduling OOC opponents even more difficult for the WCC schools without much bargaining/scheduling power.

LongIslandZagFan
03-14-2016, 07:43 AM
Hopefully the AD's from St Mary's and BYU start chiming in as well. Simple plan set an RPI/BPI mark and if the teams fall below they do not get any tourney or tv money. Reward the schools the reinvest in the programs.

Love that idea.

Zagceo
03-14-2016, 07:44 AM
Hopefully the AD's from St Mary's and BYU start chiming in as well. Simple plan set an RPI/BPI mark and if the teams fall below they do not get any tourney or tv money. Reward the schools the reinvest in the programs.

Agree.......I guess the hurdle is they have to have a vote.

Mojo13
03-14-2016, 09:12 AM
This is what happened to me in the Portland game at Chiles.
The day the box office opened for tickets I was told the only way to get a ticket to the one zags game was to buy their
premium package of four home games (some of the better teams in the WCC) for over 80 dollars, probably about a hundred after fees. This was not a good deal for me because the zag game was the only game I wanted to see.
Instead I took the only other option, which was to wait until 11:00 a.m. on Jan 11 [over two months later] at ticketmaster to compete for the 200 remaining seats on zag night. I would not be surprised if other WCC schools also play their zag card to maximum financial advantage.

I have experienced similar with both LMU and Pepperdine. Either straight can't get a ticket or they are bundled up with 3-5 other games I don't want to see. I have gone to very few Zags games in the LA area over the years...when I would have happily paid a good penny to go.


Question as I am a little out of tune with this topic. What is holding Gonzaga back from ditching the WCC? It is has been obvious for years to people all over the country that the WCC holds Gonzaga back in many ways. Financially, RPI, and even enough competition to properly prep them for March Madness. Wouldn't the MW be a better place?

Is it the no football team thing?

strikenowhere
03-14-2016, 09:14 AM
I have experienced similar with both LMU and Pepperdine. Either straight can't get a ticket or they are bundled up with 3-5 other games I don't want to see. I have gone to very few Zags games in the LA area over the years...when I would have happily paid a good penny to go.


Question as I am a little out of tune with this topic. What is holding Gonzaga back from ditching the WCC? It is has been obvious for years to people all over the country that the WCC holds Gonzaga back in many ways. Financially, RPI, and even enough competition to properly prep them for March Madness. Wouldn't the MW be a better place?

Is it the no football team thing?

Uh oh - you shouldn't that question around these parts...its heresy!

23dpg
03-14-2016, 09:16 AM
I have experienced similar with both LMU and Pepperdine. Either straight can't get a ticket or they are bundled up with 3-5 other games I don't want to see. I have gone to very few Zags games in the LA area over the years...when I would have happily paid a good penny to go.


Question as I am a little out of tune with this topic. What is holding Gonzaga back from ditching the WCC? It is has been obvious for years to people all over the country that the WCC holds Gonzaga back in many ways. Financially, RPI, and even enough competition to properly prep them for March Madness. Wouldn't the MW be a better place?

Is it the no football team thing?

Where would they go? The only possible option would be for the top teams from out west, sans the pac12, to form a new conference. That would take so many moving parts to come together that it would be near impossible. The best option at this point is what Few said.

Ezag
03-14-2016, 09:19 AM
I have experienced similar with both LMU and Pepperdine. Either straight can't get a ticket or they are bundled up with 3-5 other games I don't want to see. I have gone to very few Zags games in the LA area over the years...when I would have happily paid a good penny to go.


Question as I am a little out of tune with this topic. What is holding Gonzaga back from ditching the WCC? It is has been obvious for years to people all over the country that the WCC holds Gonzaga back in many ways. Financially, RPI, and even enough competition to properly prep them for March Madness. Wouldn't the MW be a better place?

Is it the no football team thing?

This has been discussed many times over the years. The consensus is that there is really many other options. Pac-12, you need football, MWC, I don't know. There was Big East talk for a while but that is not really feasible.

thespywhozaggedme
03-14-2016, 09:22 AM
I have experienced similar with both LMU and Pepperdine. Either straight can't get a ticket or they are bundled up with 3-5 other games I don't want to see. I have gone to very few Zags games in the LA area over the years...when I would have happily paid a good penny to go.


Question as I am a little out of tune with this topic. What is holding Gonzaga back from ditching the WCC? It is has been obvious for years to people all over the country that the WCC holds Gonzaga back in many ways. Financially, RPI, and even enough competition to properly prep them for March Madness. Wouldn't the MW be a better place?

Is it the no football team thing?
Uh....an actual invite?

CCS050
03-14-2016, 09:41 AM
Coach has had several chances to go play with the Big Boys...He could have taken the jobs at Oregon and Washington just to name a few...
Coach Few has the best fans, biggest budget, a private jet, the best facilities and the ability to attract disgruntled 4 and 5 star transfers from around the country.
He recently beat out Tom Izzo of Michigan State for 4 star transfer from Missouri by telling him about the Zag fans, the jet, the facilities and the guarantee of 26 wins and a trip to the Big Dance...He has the best basketball job in the country...I don't remember John Wooden ever scolding his downtrodden, bottom feeding opponents
for not having his advantages...He just put up with them and continued to stomp on them...Coach Few should do the same or take another job and whip up on the Big Boys...Go Zags

strikenowhere
03-14-2016, 09:43 AM
Coach has had several chances to go play with the Big Boys...He could have taken the jobs at Oregon and Washington just to name a few...
Coach Few has the best fans, biggest budget, a private jet, the best facilities and the ability to attract disgruntled 4 and 5 star transfers from around the country.
He recently beat out Tom Izzo of Michigan State for 4 star transfer from Missouri by telling him about the Zag fans, the jet, the facilities and the guarantee of 26 wins and a trip to the Big Dance...He has the best basketball job in the country...I don't remember John Wooden ever scolding his downtrodden, bottom feeding opponents
for not having his advantages...He just put up with them and continued to stomp on them...Coach Few should do the same or take another job and whip up on the Big Boys...Go Zags

It doesn't seem like he's scolding the basketball teams, more like the administrations of their respective schools for not re-investing the tournament prize pool into basketball to improve facilities, retain coaches, etc.

SWZag
03-14-2016, 09:46 AM
It doesn't seem like he's scolding the basketball teams, more like the administrations of their respective schools for not re-investing the tournament prize pool into basketball to improve facilities, retain coaches, etc.

I think the WCC has retained it's coaches fairly well and maybe that's the problem. They've retained those that haven't taken them up a level.

krozman
03-14-2016, 09:47 AM
I don't think anyone argues that Few is incorrect. However, it would have been a more effective speech at a more appropriate time, possibly also combined with a thread from the AD to conference shop if our conference members didn't change their ways. Nobody wants a story like this when you have to prepare for a weekend single elimination tournament.

realtydog
03-14-2016, 09:50 AM
Coach has had several chances to go play with the Big Boys...He could have taken the jobs at Oregon and Washington just to name a few...
Coach Few has the best fans, biggest budget, a private jet, the best facilities and the ability to attract disgruntled 4 and 5 star transfers from around the country.
He recently beat out Tom Izzo of Michigan State for 4 star transfer from Missouri by telling him about the Zag fans, the jet, the facilities and the guarantee of 26 wins and a trip to the Big Dance...He has the best basketball job in the country...I don't remember John Wooden ever scolding his downtrodden, bottom feeding opponents
for not having his advantages...He just put up with them and continued to stomp on them...Coach Few should do the same or take another job and whip up on the Big Boys...Go Zags

Those "advantages" you mentioned were earned---not given to Few or the team------I don't get your message-----seems fairly obvious that he was taking shots at the administrations to "step up"------and why would you suggest that he just "put up" with it ?????? Is that what we should do when things aren't what they could be? hmmmm so we do the yeomen's work earing the WCC some extra cash and we split it fairly among those that sit around.....in the land of RPI 250------sounds like the story of the The Little Red Hen

23dpg
03-14-2016, 09:52 AM
I applaud what Coach Few said.

One HUGE difference between this era and Coach Wooden's era. Back then, only the conference champion went to the tournament. If you were a top 5 team, but didn't win the conference, you were NIT bound. It actually helped UCLA to have the other 7 teams in the Pac8 to be bad.

Zagceo
03-14-2016, 09:58 AM
I don't think anyone argues that Few is incorrect. However, it would have been a more effective speech at a more appropriate time, possibly also combined with a thread from the AD to conference shop if our conference members didn't change their ways. Nobody wants a story like this when you have to prepare for a weekend single elimination tournament.

I disagree……Few is correct……and its exactly the story we want at the time we want it.

The WCC is not stepping up to the plate and building the brand. You think Roth & Few are not preaching at every WCC conference gathering about building programs? Its the lack of action which caused this message to splash here and now and because SMC and BYU took a hit and caused all WCC to lose out.

realtydog
03-14-2016, 10:03 AM
I don't think anyone argues that Few is incorrect. However, it would have been a more effective speech at a more appropriate time, possibly also combined with a thread from the AD to conference shop if our conference members didn't change their ways. Nobody wants a story like this when you have to prepare for a weekend single elimination tournament.

I also disagree with this----I think Few is 100% correct and applaud his timing--this is when focus is on the WCC basketball state of affairs----when should this be addressed?? July? when nobody gives a damn..... now is when everyone is paying attention

vandalzag
03-14-2016, 10:08 AM
Coach has had several chances to go play with the Big Boys...He could have taken the jobs at Oregon and Washington just to name a few...
Coach Few has the best fans, biggest budget, a private jet, the best facilities and the ability to attract disgruntled 4 and 5 star transfers from around the country.
He recently beat out Tom Izzo of Michigan State for 4 star transfer from Missouri by telling him about the Zag fans, the jet, the facilities and the guarantee of 26 wins and a trip to the Big Dance...He has the best basketball job in the country...I don't remember John Wooden ever scolding his downtrodden, bottom feeding opponents
for not having his advantages...He just put up with them and continued to stomp on them...Coach Few should do the same or take another job and whip up on the Big Boys...Go Zags

Suggest a re-read of what he said. What he is saying is that schools are not investing in their program, yet are still sharing in the revenue generated by the teams as that do invest in their program. The conference outside of GU and BYU does a poor job of scheduling thus costing the schools who are good a shot at an at large bid. All Few is saying is the other schools need to start trying if they are going to share in the money. GU 20 years ago was in the same boat but decided to follow up on a magical run and put some money into the program. The results speak for themselves. Facilities, coach salary, recruiting budget, etc... that is how you build a program.
You should check your history on coach Wooden and his UCLA program. The Pac 8/10 was a single bid conference back then and no tourney. Also nobody else had Sam Gilbert. Comparing that to GU vs the WCC in current time is silly.

scott257
03-14-2016, 10:10 AM
I applaud what Coach Few said.

One HUGE difference between this era and Coach Wooden's era. Back then, only the conference champion went to the tournament. If you were a top 5 team, but didn't win the conference, you were NIT bound. It actually helped UCLA to have the other 7 teams in the Pac8 to be bad.

Exactly. The field was smaller, they did not have conference tournaments, and only one team went from each conference. Big difference between now and then.

ZagsGoZags
03-14-2016, 10:12 AM
if we played in the mostly Catholic conference,
we would be the 'hawaii' of that league,
traveling 600 to 2400 miles for all our road trips
and they traveling to see us also.
Hawaii's competitors probably think of that road trip highly each year because it is Hawaii
I don't know if the spokane water falls would have the same appeal ...

Coach Crazy
03-14-2016, 10:14 AM
You aren't "down trodden" when you are being provided with resources you didn't earn, and allocate them to areas that won't assist the program in getting better.

jazzdelmar
03-14-2016, 10:20 AM
Forza Few!

SCU
03-14-2016, 10:21 AM
I have experienced similar with both LMU and Pepperdine. Either straight can't get a ticket or they are bundled up with 3-5 other games I don't want to see. I have gone to very few Zags games in the LA area over the years...when I would have happily paid a good penny to go.


Question as I am a little out of tune with this topic. What is holding Gonzaga back from ditching the WCC? It is has been obvious for years to people all over the country that the WCC holds Gonzaga back in many ways. Financially, RPI, and even enough competition to properly prep them for March Madness. Wouldn't the MW be a better place?

Is it the no football team thing?

I would say yes, its's the no football thing.

Also, the MW only sent one team, Fresno State, and they're a 13 seed. I understand that the MW has had better years and there's more marquee programs, but this year they were horrid. Last year I remember a high RPI and 25 win Colorado State program left home. Slight better as it may be, that's still a mid-major league.

I think Few is correct, there is a lack of institutional commitment from a lot of the WCC schools. These comments aren't off base whatsoever. I'm glad to see that SCU is finally shaking things up- New AD, new coach, new locker rooms, heck, a new court designed by Nike. Most of the schools have the money, they just don't have the will. I think the best fit for GU that is plausible is to stay in a WCC that tries harder to be the Big East of the West. I don't see any other situation that is actually plausible... like moving only the Bball program to another league, which is a pipe dream.

At the same time, isn't the suggestion that only giving back the NCAA tournaments shares to the better teams only going to perpetuate the problem? I know that's not exactly his idea, I think he wants NCAA Men's basketball money going back into the NCAA Men's basketball programs of the league, and not as the main source of funding. I have to agree with him there. My takeaway is of the effect that Few WANTS to be in the WCC, he just wants it to be a league where everyone making the effort, and spending the $$$, to be consistently competitive basketball team that competes for the NCAA tournament or NIT.

sittingon50
03-14-2016, 10:50 AM
What's wrong with swimming?

Zagceo
03-14-2016, 10:55 AM
I think Few is correct, there is a lack of institutional commitment from a lot of the WCC schools. These comments aren't off base whatsoever. I'm glad to see that SCU is finally shaking things up- New AD, new coach, new locker rooms, heck, a new court designed by Nike. Most of the schools have the money, they just don't have the will. I think the best fit for GU that is plausible is to stay in a WCC that tries harder to be the Big East of the West. I don't see any other situation that is actually plausible... like moving only the Bball program to another league, which is a pipe dream.

Agree…….schools have the money and are surrounded by the talent that goes elsewhere. If you build it they will come and we need the WCC to become the Big East of the West.

Gonzaga paved the way watching and repeating what the Big East did with ESPN and building their Brand.

For those that didn't know or may have forgotten ……..Gonzaga built brand by buying time on ESPN like an informercial………..the Big East Bristol way.

Its about finding the Coaching staff that works for each geographic area and are invested in local community that won't be lured away by bright lights and bigger money. Its not easy……administrators & AD's need to move fast and be honest when evaluating programs….example Keating way to much time wasted IMO.

sittingon50
03-14-2016, 11:03 AM
Normally I don't slow down for car wrecks, but this was as predictable as death & taxes (I have such little will power):



http://www.donscentral.com/thread/575/whining-wcc-again

Less traffic @SCU:

http://scufanscom.yuku.com/topic/3541/Mark-Few-calls-out-WCC#.VucL7NHmrcs

Lot's of traffic @ BYU:

http://www.cougarboard.com/board/message.html?id=15600836

Coach Crazy
03-14-2016, 11:07 AM
Normally I don't slow down for car wrecks, but this was as predictable as death & taxes (I have such little will power):



http://www.donscentral.com/thread/575/whining-wcc-again

One or two dudes that get it. Geez. The truth hurts, for some.

ProVeeZag
03-14-2016, 11:15 AM
I think the timing of Few's comment was very appropriate since it followed shortly after St Mary's was snubbed from the tournament. Given a higher overall WCC RPI/BPI/KenPom rating (take your pick), the conference very likely gets two teams into The Dance this year. I don't know the money arrangements, but it would seem the more conference teams that get in, the more money that flows back to the conference. Anybody know the dollar figures involved that come back to the conferences? The financial incentive is measurable; but is it enough of an incentive for the San Diegos and Pacifics of the league to commit more resources to their basketball programs?

strikenowhere
03-14-2016, 11:17 AM
I think the timing of Few's comment was very appropriate since it followed shortly after St Mary's was snubbed from the tournament. Given a higher overall WCC RPI/BPI/KenPom rating (take your pick), the conference very likely gets two teams into The Dance this year. I don't know the money arrangements, but it would seem the more conference teams that get in, the more money that flows back to the conference. Anybody know the dollar figures involved that come back to the conferences? The financial incentive is measurable; but is it enough of an incentive for the San Diegos and Pacifics of the league to commit more resources to their basketball programs?

I think its $1.5 million paid to the conference over 6 years for each game played by each team for the first couple of rounds

ProjectMKUltra5
03-14-2016, 11:36 AM
We're gunna join the Big East, I'm telling you

zagfan24
03-14-2016, 11:54 AM
One or two dudes that get it. Geez. The truth hurts, for some.

The funny thing is, Few is calling for what most fans of those teams probably have been for years: institutional support of programs that matches their history, campus location, school quality, and potential. I really believe that Pepperdine, USD, SCU, and USF all have the potential to be consistently more highly rated programs.

SCU
03-14-2016, 12:08 PM
The funny thing is, Few is calling for what most fans of those teams probably have been for years: institutional support of programs that matches their history, campus location, school quality, and potential. I really believe that Pepperdine, USD, SCU, and USF all have the potential to be consistently more highly rated programs.

From my reading, the SCU fans tend to agree with Few and want to do better, and believe that they can.

USF fans of course are all upset about the comments... meanwhile, USF comes in 10th in the league in Men's Bball spending. They spend 2 million to GU's 12, and are the exact problem Few is talking about.

seacatfan
03-14-2016, 12:09 PM
WCC has gotten 3 teams in at least twice, and once was even before BYU joined. Seems like a big step backwards for the conference this year.

TexasZagFan
03-14-2016, 12:11 PM
I think its $1.5 million paid to the conference over 6 years for each game played by each team for the first couple of rounds

From SI last year:


Schools who have qualified for this week's field of 64 will earn their conference approximately $1.67 million, according to the report. The NCAA urges leagues to dole out this money equally to its member institutions over a six-year period.

I found a link that is awesome:

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-march-madness-basketball-fund/

Does it deserve it's own thread?

Title of the article: March Madness Makers & Takers

Definitely worth reading. The WCC occupies a good portion of the article, because of GU's dominance.


This effect is magnified in smaller conferences, where a single team could be responsible for the bulk of tournament appearances. Gonzaga University plays in the West Coast conference and is responsible for half of its revenue. It gets back an even smaller share, roughly 20 percent of what it contributes.

GoZags
03-14-2016, 12:11 PM
The 4 Star transfer from Mizzou came to GU because of what hometown buddy Drew Barham told him. Your made up quotes from Few had nothing to do with it.
Coach has had several chances to go play with the Big Boys...He could have taken the jobs at Oregon and Washington just to name a few...
Coach Few has the best fans, biggest budget, a private jet, the best facilities and the ability to attract disgruntled 4 and 5 star transfers from around the country.
He recently beat out Tom Izzo of Michigan State for 4 star transfer from Missouri by telling him about the Zag fans, the jet, the facilities and the guarantee of 26 wins and a trip to the Big Dance...He has the best basketball job in the country...I don't remember John Wooden ever scolding his downtrodden, bottom feeding opponents
for not having his advantages...He just put up with them and continued to stomp on them...Coach Few should do the same or take another job and whip up on the Big Boys...Go Zags

zagfan24
03-14-2016, 12:18 PM
In my opinion, the impetus for Few's comments was primarily the fact that a very good team (SMC) was left out of the tourney. I am guessing that they had less to do with GU's seed or their own theoretical precarious position if they didn't have an auto-bid. If I am correct, pro leagues with revenue sharing agreements have fairly strict regulations on how that money is spent. I am not aware if the same is true in these circumstances.

TexasZagFan
03-14-2016, 12:21 PM
In my opinion, the impetus for Few's comments was primarily the fact that a very good team (SMC) was left out of the tourney. I am guessing that they had less to do with GU's seed or their own theoretical precarious position if they didn't have an auto-bid. If I am correct, pro leagues with revenue sharing agreements have fairly strict regulations on how that money is spent. I am not aware if the same is true in these circumstances.

I'm convinced that Coach Few thinks our conference was worthy of 3 bids, including BYU. It won't happen overnight, but if the WCC had 8 teams with RPIs under 150, that would certainly improve chances for the top 3 finishers in the league.

Zagceo
03-14-2016, 12:26 PM
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac342/ceo_500/Screen%20Shot%202016-03-14%20at%201.23.10%20PM_zpsjccijvlt.png

ProVeeZag
03-14-2016, 12:30 PM
From SI last year:



I found a link that is awesome:

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-march-madness-basketball-fund/

Does it deserve it's own thread?

Title of the article: March Madness Makers & Takers

Definitely worth reading. The WCC occupies a good portion of the article, because of GU's dominance.

GREAT ARTICLE - thanks for sharing this! Lends evermore credence to Few's comments. FWIW: USF takes 10 times more than it makes over the last 20+ years.

Alum08
03-14-2016, 12:32 PM
I like the suggestion on the BYU board that the WCC shift to an unbalanced schedule based on last year's conference standings and/or RPI. There's no reason we need to be playing the dregs of the WCC twice a season if they clearly aren't interested in improving their programs. Let the top half play each other twice and the rest can get their home-court Gonzaga bux every other season instead.

This will also allow more scheduling flexibility for all of the teams in the WCC to entice the power schools to play them.

ProVeeZag
03-14-2016, 12:36 PM
I like the suggestion on the BYU board that the WCC shift to an unbalanced schedule based on last year's conference standings and/or RPI. There's no reason we need to be playing the dregs of the WCC twice a season if they clearly aren't interested in improving their programs. Let the top half play each other twice and the rest can get their home-court Gonzaga bux every other season instead.

This will also allow more scheduling flexibility for all of the teams in the WCC to entice the power schools to play them.

Some merits to this idea. I wouldn't want to be the one selling the idea to the bottom members of the league! They'll want to be compensated for loss of ticket/tv revenue due to not playing Zags/BYU/Gaels.

TexasZagFan
03-14-2016, 12:39 PM
Some merits to this idea. I wouldn't want to be the one selling the idea to the bottom members of the league! They'll want to be compensated for loss of ticket/tv revenue due to not playing Zags/BYU/Gaels.

https://jryan1022.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/dr-evil.jpg

vandalzag
03-14-2016, 12:58 PM
https://jryan1022.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/dr-evil.jpg

Oh the poor Donscentral board, bunch of lunatics walking around the grocery store in their pajamas. SC board had it pretty much spot on. Few was not taking for the Zags, he was speaking up for BYU and SMC. If GU did not go all in after the run in 99 they would have faded back to mediocrity. No way we keep Few more the 2 years, assistants would have left and the program would have stalled (which happens to most flash in the pan mid-majors). Continuity and success brought in the booster money to build an arena, have chartered flights, and recruit globally. Brand recognition followed, now 80% or so of games are Nationally broadcast on ESPN. This started with a little luck and a lot of investment. It paid off tremendously for the school when you look at the jump in enrollment and improvement of facilities across the board. The idiots at Donscentral can't see past the cobwebs of their glory days. Every school should be pissed that they are not seeing the same effort that GU puts out. 12 million spent on athletics from a school the resides in the smallest population center in the conference. Seeing what RB has done with his budget is a miracle.

TexasZagFan
03-14-2016, 01:08 PM
Oh the poor Donscentral board, bunch of lunatics walking around the grocery store in their pajamas. SC board had it pretty much spot on. Few was not taking for the Zags, he was speaking up for BYU and SMC. If GU did not go all in after the run in 99 they would have faded back to mediocrity. No way we keep Few more the 2 years, assistants would have left and the program would have stalled (which happens to most flash in the pan mid-majors). Continuity and success brought in the booster money to build an arena, have chartered flights, and recruit globally. Brand recognition followed, now 80% or so of games are Nationally broadcast on ESPN. This started with a little luck and a lot of investment. It paid off tremendously for the school when you look at the jump in enrollment and improvement of facilities across the board. The idiots at Donscentral can't see past the cobwebs of their glory days. Every school should be pissed that they are not seeing the same effort that GU puts out. 12 million spent on athletics from a school the resides in the smallest population center in the conference. Seeing what RB has done with his budget is a miracle.

Even though I only saw the first two episodes on HBO, there's no doubt that EMac's story will resonate with 4-star players who have become disgruntled and disillusioned. It's not just been Eric, he's just the latest.

SMC administration needs to give more support to RB. He deserves it. Maybe he can schedule a one-and-done money game with a big 5 school. With his current team, he can do that for a couple of years.

bballbeachbum
03-14-2016, 01:15 PM
From SI last year:



I found a link that is awesome:

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-march-madness-basketball-fund/

Does it deserve it's own thread?

Title of the article: March Madness Makers & Takers

Definitely worth reading. The WCC occupies a good portion of the article, because of GU's dominance.

yes it does deserve its own thread ;)

TexasZagFan
03-14-2016, 01:23 PM
yes it does deserve its own thread ;)

Already started the thread. I tried posting the graphs, didn't work, so I started a separate thread.

Over the past 15 years, it's been GU & SMC, and not much else.

Seriously, I don't get it...Pepperdine's on the beach, and so many other locales are in beautiful areas. Something is missing. How do the Zags continue to bring in talent, great kids that usually graduate? I simply can't believe that the "Gonzaga Experience" is that unique.

Then again, maybe it is.

seacatfan
03-14-2016, 01:33 PM
Already started the thread. I tried posting the graphs, didn't work, so I started a separate thread.

Over the past 15 years, it's been GU & SMC, and not much else.

Seriously, I don't get it...Pepperdine's on the beach, and so many other locales are in beautiful areas. Something is missing. How do the Zags continue to bring in talent, great kids that usually graduate? I simply can't believe that the "Gonzaga Experience" is that unique.

Then again, maybe it is.

Before Gonzaga's streak started (and even overlapping it a little bit), Pepperdine was a solid program. LMU was outstanding for a brief period (the Gathers/Kimble years were featured in an ESPN 30/30 program I just saw the other day). SCU used to be solid. Just before Pacific joined the conference they were among the best in the Big West, but they fell off a cliff. It IS possible to win at many of those WCC schools. Some of them are BADLY in need of facilities upgrades, but some of them have decent gyms. I'm with you, I just don't get it. Something is missing, but I don't know what.

bballbeachbum
03-14-2016, 01:34 PM
Already started the thread. I tried posting the graphs, didn't work, so I started a separate thread.

Over the past 15 years, it's been GU & SMC, and not much else.

Seriously, I don't get it...Pepperdine's on the beach, and so many other locales are in beautiful areas. Something is missing. How do the Zags continue to bring in talent, great kids that usually graduate? I simply can't believe that the "Gonzaga Experience" is that unique.

Then again, maybe it is.

saw that thread, thanks man. the article does well to spell out the numbers which context Few's comments

TexasZagFan
03-14-2016, 01:46 PM
Before Gonzaga's streak started (and even overlapping it a little bit), Pepperdine was a solid program. LMU was outstanding for a brief period (the Gathers/Kimble years were featured in an ESPN 30/30 program I just saw the other day). SCU used to be solid. Just before Pacific joined the conference they were among the best in the Big West, but they fell off a cliff. It IS possible to win at many of those WCC schools. Some of them are BADLY in need of facilities upgrades, but some of them have decent gyms. I'm with you, I just don't get it. Something is missing, but I don't know what.

I remember the Gaithers/Kimble years well. They were an exceedingly entertaining team to watch.

I also noticed that GU did not contribute a dime until 1999. They're now averaging $2MM+ a year, and I don't expect any letup over the next 2-3 years. Does that mean we'll go Sweet Sixteen or better every year? Of course not. However, we'll earn $$$ for the conference by being the top draw for the WCC.

Perhaps another thread, one on "what do the other WCC schools need to do to become more competitive"? I'm not talking about BYU or SMC, but those schools that have just gone nowhere for a decade.

ProjectMKUltra5
03-14-2016, 01:46 PM
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac342/ceo_500/Screen%20Shot%202016-03-14%20at%201.23.10%20PM_zpsjccijvlt.png

That's ******* absurd. Wow

sittingon50
03-14-2016, 01:47 PM
GREAT ARTICLE - thanks for sharing this! Lends evermore credence to Few's comments. FWIW: USF takes 10 times more than it makes over the last 20+ years.

Welfare state?

Coach Crazy
03-14-2016, 02:02 PM
That's ******* absurd. Wow

Yeah, they need to create a metric that allows those that are 1. Making the money 2. Successfully improving a maintaining a certain standard and 3. Spending the money in the right pre-designated areas of development to gain the most from success.

Zagceo
03-14-2016, 02:14 PM
Before Gonzaga's streak started (and even overlapping it a little bit), Pepperdine was a solid program. LMU was outstanding for a brief period (the Gathers/Kimble years were featured in an ESPN 30/30 program I just saw the other day). SCU used to be solid. Just before Pacific joined the conference they were among the best in the Big West, but they fell off a cliff. It IS possible to win at many of those WCC schools. Some of them are BADLY in need of facilities upgrades, but some of them have decent gyms. I'm with you, I just don't get it. Something is missing, but I don't know what.

If I were to make one guess on whats missing ………….more leaders with the ability to be humble, driven, nurturing and disciplinarian day in and day out in a matter of fact business/family environment. A great coach wears many hats.

The fact that Gonzaga has built this program on a foundation of player based on character(team first) before ability is what has sustained and eventually grown the program to land our first Mickey D player as a frosh after 17 ncaa tournament appearances says a lot about the program IMO.

Everyone has ego's but when a team stays together and has the ability to work together and build something like Gonzaga's basketball program from the ground up……..its a team effort. Lots of names behind the scenes which deserve credit for vision and are quietly going about their business day in and day out like AD Roth to name just one.

ZagLawGrad
03-14-2016, 06:25 PM
Atta boy, Coach!! :cheers:

ZagLawGrad
03-14-2016, 06:34 PM
Normally I don't slow down for car wrecks, but this was as predictable as death & taxes (I have such little will power):



http://www.donscentral.com/thread/575/whining-wcc-again

Less traffic @SCU:

http://scufanscom.yuku.com/topic/3541/Mark-Few-calls-out-WCC#.VucL7NHmrcs

Lot's of traffic @ BYU:

http://www.cougarboard.com/board/message.html?id=15600836

USF a sorry program.

BULLDOG#1
03-14-2016, 07:31 PM
Mountain West would be a great place for GU.

ProVeeZag
03-14-2016, 08:58 PM
In my opinion, the impetus for Few's comments was primarily the fact that a very good team (SMC) was left out of the tourney. I am guessing that they had less to do with GU's seed or their own theoretical precarious position if they didn't have an auto-bid. If I am correct, pro leagues with revenue sharing agreements have fairly strict regulations on how that money is spent. I am not aware if the same is true in these circumstances.

Very much agree with this. Plus Mark realizes had GU lost the title game vs St Mary's, the Zags chances of getting an at-large berth were dicey at best given the perceived weakness of much of the WCC membership. Having a conference consistently worthy of at least 2 bids in the Dance helps everybody in the league (and I include GU in that).

ZagaZags
03-14-2016, 09:24 PM
Very much agree with this. Plus Mark realizes had GU lost the title game vs St Mary's, the Zags chances of getting an at-large berth were dicey at best given the perceived weakness of much of the WCC membership. Having a conference consistently worthy of at least 2 bids in the Dance helps everybody in the league (and I include GU in that).


Try "zip, zero, zilch, nada".

jpn17
03-14-2016, 10:26 PM
From my reading, the SCU fans tend to agree with Few and want to do better, and believe that they can.

USF fans of course are all upset about the comments... meanwhile, USF comes in 10th in the league in Men's Bball spending. They spend 2 million to GU's 12, and are the exact problem Few is talking about.

The thing is you'd think they'd want to rally behind comments like this and want this to put pressure on the athletic department to improve their basketball program. But they don't, Few said it which automatically makes it bad and wrong. They don't get that Few wants the Dons (and the entire WCC) to be better. But it's not just gonna happen magically overnight. There's no reason that they can't do what Gonzaga and Saint Mary's have done. Apathy at its finest down in the bay.

kitzbuel
03-15-2016, 03:25 AM
Mountain West would be a great place for GU.
Our football team would get crushed...


MWC wants to improve its football standing. Basketball is pulled along in its wake. Trying to go basketball only would leave us on the far fringes of influence.

The Big East showed that separate football and basketball membership doesn't work. Their basketball identity was being lost in the chase for BCS games.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

kitzbuel
03-15-2016, 03:32 AM
USF a sorry program.
So basically their best retort is 'Ha Ha, we suck which hurts you and you can't do anything about it!'

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

jazzdelmar
03-15-2016, 03:40 AM
A measure of how pathetic the WCC is, down here it is said that much of the reason the committee left SDSU out of the NCs is that they played and lost to USD, a 300 plus RPI team..in fact, it's reported the staff didn't want to play them and that the AD, bowing to publicity and money as the game was at Petco Park, forced them to.....yesterday on local radio he hemmed and hawed about it while the staff led by Fisher and Dutcher were in no comment phase...and USD is not alone as a crap program...the bottom of the WCC is toxic and GU has to endure playing each of them twice a year. Few has one hand tied behind his back before the league season begins.....still, nothing will change....

Zagnificent
03-15-2016, 05:09 AM
FWIW: USF takes 10 times more than it makes over the last 20+ years.

Well isn't that just the San Francisco ethic, though? Let the rich pay their fair share. /mini-screed

willandi
03-15-2016, 05:29 AM
From my reading, the SCU fans tend to agree with Few and want to do better, and believe that they can.

USF fans of course are all upset about the comments... meanwhile, USF comes in 10th in the league in Men's Bball spending. They spend 2 million to GU's 12, and are the exact problem Few is talking about.

Hey! Don't dis the Don's? They won a national championship 50 years ago!

Zagsker
03-15-2016, 05:50 AM
Good ideas on BYU board...whether it is

MWC (GU, BYU, SMC, PEPP)

Playing an unbalanced schedule where current conf schedule is made by using previous year standings/RPI making it where top teams don't play bottom feeders as much

If a team finishes with a 200+ RPI they are not entitled to tourney $, or a team has to qualify for a postseason tourney to get $

TexasZagFan
03-15-2016, 05:57 AM
Good ideas on BYU board...whether it is

MWC (GU, BYU, SMC, PEPP)

Playing an unbalanced schedule where current conf schedule is made by using previous year standings/RPI making it where top teams don't play bottom feeders as much

If a team finishes with a 200+ RPI they are not entitled to tourney $, or a team has to qualify for a postseason tourney to get $

I like the idea, with this caveat. Implement the RPI threshold for tourney $$$ in the 2019-2020 season, to give everyone three years.

Zagsker
03-15-2016, 06:00 AM
USF a sorry program.


No kidding...their Few and GU hatred has blinded them from the obvious

Zagsker
03-15-2016, 06:03 AM
I like the idea, with this caveat. Implement the RPI threshold for tourney $$$ in the 2019-2020 season, to give everyone three years.

Agree...shows patience and understanding, also will give you a great indicator on what school (s) just don't care

BYU
03-15-2016, 06:20 AM
Good ideas on BYU board...whether it is

MWC (GU, BYU, SMC, PEPP)

Playing an unbalanced schedule where current conf schedule is made by using previous year standings/RPI making it where top teams don't play bottom feeders as much

If a team finishes with a 200+ RPI they are not entitled to tourney $, or a team has to qualify for a postseason tourney to get $

Those changes sound great, but I'm not sure they would fix very much.

With the uneven scheduling, the bottom teams would schedule more garbage, making those games even worse. That will hurt their recruiting even more and reduce their ability to get better in the long run. There is a good chance SMC would just shoot themselves in the foot with more lame games, so that may even take 2 quality RPI games off the schedule.

Maybe taking the money away from teams not trying would put more resources into the hands of the middle teams that may actually use the money to build their programs.

TexasZagFan
03-15-2016, 06:40 AM
Those changes sound great, but I'm not sure they would fix very much.

With the uneven scheduling, the bottom teams would schedule more garbage, making those games even worse. That will hurt their recruiting even more and reduce their ability to get better in the long run. There is a good chance SMC would just shoot themselves in the foot with more lame games, so that may even take 2 quality RPI games off the schedule.

Maybe taking the money away from teams not trying would put more resources into the hands of the middle teams that may actually use the money to build their programs.

I think we're getting somewhere. Why not treat NCAA money like the NFL draft? Here's my thought...in 2020, Team A lowers their RPI to below 200 (from say 250). Team B, also a 250 RPI school, stays at 250, or worse. Team A gets Team B's share of the dough for that year.

This is a great discussion, but the WCC Commissioner needs to show some leadership. Coach Few set the table on behalf of SMC and BYU. I think Pepperdine is making a bid, and I'll be interest to see the new hires at USF and SCU. There needs to be more carrots and sticks, I recognize that.

CaliWG
03-15-2016, 07:00 AM
Someone on the SMC board suggested that the WCC should pursue a challenge with the A-10. I like the idea, even if it means Gonzaga, BYU, and Saint Mary's have to commit to playing two games every year (1 home, 1 away) to balance out the membership numbers. This would really give the bottom 7 in the WCC a chance to boost their RPIs.

Zagsker
03-15-2016, 07:01 AM
Someone on the SMC board suggested that the WCC should pursue a challenge with the A-10. I like the idea, even if it means Gonzaga, BYU, and Saint Mary's have to commit to playing two games every year (1 home, 1 away) to balance out the membership numbers. This would really give the bottom 7 in the WCC a chance to boost their RPIs.

I like that

strikenowhere
03-15-2016, 07:10 AM
I like that

The A-10 would look at the bottom of the league and say its not worth the effort.

sittingon50
03-15-2016, 07:32 AM
The A-10 would look at the bottom of the league and say its not worth the effort.

This.

Zagsker
03-15-2016, 07:36 AM
The A-10 would look at the bottom of the league and say its not worth the effort.

Maybe

Do a 2 year deal and re-evaluate...start it 2017-18 season

Coach Crazy
03-15-2016, 08:15 AM
The A-10 would look at the bottom of the league and say its not worth the effort.

Yes, but find a way to get the Top 4 against the Top 4. Perhaps not possible, but would be interesting to see.

Ezag
03-15-2016, 08:23 AM
Our football team would get crushed...



Not sure about that! We have been undefeated for over 50 years!

kitzbuel
03-15-2016, 08:31 AM
Good ideas on BYU board...whether it is

MWC (GU, BYU, SMC, PEPP)

Playing an unbalanced schedule where current conf schedule is made by using previous year standings/RPI making it where top teams don't play bottom feeders as much

If a team finishes with a 200+ RPI they are not entitled to tourney $, or a team has to qualify for a postseason tourney to get $

I liked that idea. Have a European soccer style relegation. Top 6 play each other twice, play the bottom 6 once. Still 18 conference games like there is now. Top two teams from the bottom 6 move up, bottom two from the top 6 move down or some type of competition along those lines.

That would make those mid-level games absolute battles.

CaliWG
03-15-2016, 08:31 AM
The A-10 would look at the bottom of the league and say its not worth the effort.

If the WCC committed its top 3 to play two games each, that would make up for the imbalance in both depth and overall numbers.

DixieZag
03-15-2016, 09:04 AM
I liked that idea. Have a European soccer style relegation. Top 6 play each other twice, play the bottom 6 once. Still 18 conference games like there is now. Top two teams from the bottom 6 move up, bottom two from the top 6 move down or some type of competition along those lines.

That would make those mid-level games absolute battles.

Would sure be innovative for college BB - not sure it's ever been tried in a college setting. It might be a great time to experiment with innovating ideas. Could it go any worse than what we have now?

SintoZag
03-15-2016, 10:46 AM
What about requiring each school to spend half (or all) of their fund money on the basketball program? I am all for Title IV and they would still have to comply with that, they would just not be able to use the NCAA MBB money to do it. Granted someone could not put any other money in their program.

USF
03-15-2016, 10:52 AM
I find it amusing that basically every GU fan here assumes that Few's rant about "cellar dwellars" and "bottom feeders" was about USF.

Fact. USF's average WCC finish since the 2007-2008 season is 4.5. This means an average 4th or 5th place finish. USF finished tied for SECOND in the WCC 2 seasons ago and Walters was COY. Essentially USF has been a top 4 WCC team (or close) for the last decade. If you want to talk about cellar dwellars, feel free to discuss Pepp, SCU, LMU and USD, all teams that have vied for the bottom in recent seasons. Pacific will occupy that spot for the indefinite future.

And Few complaining about teams using share money for "swimming"? USF doesn't have a swim team. Pepp, LMU and USD do. So maybe Few wasn't talking about USF at all. Maybe he is talking about Reveno, who has done nothing at Portland for a very long time. Yeah, I know you all like him. Why wouldn't you? He guarantees that at least ONE team will never challenge you.

And Pepperdine? That team you want to bring (along with BYU and SMC) to your new fantasy league? They finished 7th, 7th, 5th and 4th in the last four WCC seasons.

And is spite of USF being a solid middle of the pack WCC team, USF still fired Walters. They have also committed $ 30m to facilities upgrades. We will also likely hire a very high profile head coach. USF is aware of the importance of a strong men's hoops program.

I find your plans for the Big East or A-10 pretty funny. I'm sure those 5 east coast trips every league season will be fun. The MWC? Unless you plan on reviving your football program, there is no chance of that.

TexasZagFan
03-15-2016, 11:03 AM
I find it amusing that basically every GU fan here assumes that Few's rant about "cellar dwellars" and "bottom feeders" was about USF.

Fact. USF's average WCC finish since the 2007-2008 season is 4.5. This means an average 4th or 5th place finish. USF finished tied for SECOND in the WCC 2 seasons ago and Walters was COY. Essentially USF has been a top 4 WCC team (or close) for the last decade. If you want to talk about cellar dwellars, feel free to discuss Pepp, SCU, LMU and USD, all teams that have vied for the bottom in recent seasons. Pacific will occupy that spot for the indefinite future.

And Few complaining about teams using share money for "swimming"? USF doesn't have a swim team. Pepp, LMU and USD do. So maybe Few wasn't talking about USF at all. Maybe he is talking about Reveno, who has done nothing at Portland for a very long time. Yeah, I know you all like him. Why wouldn't you? He guarantees that at least ONE team will never challenge you.

And Pepperdine? That team you want to bring (along with BYU and SMC) to your new fantasy league? They finished 7th, 7th, 5th and 4th in the last four WCC seasons.

And is spite of USF being a solid middle of the pack WCC team, USF still fired Walters. They have also committed $ 30m to facilities upgrades. We will also likely hire a very high profile head coach. USF is aware of the importance of a strong men's hoops program.

I find your plans for the Big East or A-10 pretty funny. I'm sure those 5 east coast trips every league season will be fun. The MWC? Unless you plan on reviving your football program, there is no chance of that.

Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

No, I don't think your school was the target, as opposed to SCU, LMU, USD, etc.

It's a small, uninformed minority that keeps bringing up the canard of leaving the WCC. If you're nice, maybe they'll accept your invitation to bump up the traffic on Dons Central.

:jk:

ETA: Reveno was fired about 30 minutes ago.

Coach Crazy
03-15-2016, 11:17 AM
I find it amusing that basically every GU fan here assumes that Few's rant about "cellar dwellars" and "bottom feeders" was about USF.

Fact. USF's average WCC finish since the 2007-2008 season is 4.5. This means an average 4th or 5th place finish. USF finished tied for SECOND in the WCC 2 seasons ago and Walters was COY. Essentially USF has been a top 4 WCC team (or close) for the last decade. If you want to talk about cellar dwellars, feel free to discuss Pepp, SCU, LMU and USD, all teams that have vied for the bottom in recent seasons. Pacific will occupy that spot for the indefinite future.

And Few complaining about teams using share money for "swimming"? USF doesn't have a swim team. Pepp, LMU and USD do. So maybe Few wasn't talking about USF at all. Maybe he is talking about Reveno, who has done nothing at Portland for a very long time. Yeah, I know you all like him. Why wouldn't you? He guarantees that at least ONE team will never challenge you.

And Pepperdine? That team you want to bring (along with BYU and SMC) to your new fantasy league? They finished 7th, 7th, 5th and 4th in the last four WCC seasons.

And is spite of USF being a solid middle of the pack WCC team, USF still fired Walters. They have also committed $ 30m to facilities upgrades. We will also likely hire a very high profile head coach. USF is aware of the importance of a strong men's hoops program.

I find your plans for the Big East or A-10 pretty funny. I'm sure those 5 east coast trips every league season will be fun. The MWC? Unless you plan on reviving your football program, there is no chance of that.

I think Don's Central is going to get USF to "target" status on boards like this, almost as much as anything else. If USF is in fact putting up money to make things better, and getting the coaching and the scheduling to improve their resume, then great.

What Coach Few said is true, and he very well could have been using "swimming" as a representation of any misuse of funds and efforts.

No one here actually thinks that the Zags are going to the A-10 or the Big East. Having a Top 4 vs Top 4 showdown would be great, but that's about it.

As well, please understand that placement in the WCC isn't necessarily as efficacious as SOS, RPI, BPI, KenPom, and Sagarin. Those are all better indicators (although I am not a fan of RPI) of where a team is and how much it helps the conference. After 3rd place BYU, the rest of the conference is 120-ish+ in the aggregates and gets much worse quickly.

ProjectMKUltra5
03-15-2016, 11:31 AM
No one here actually thinks that the Zags are going to the A-10 or the Big East.


It's a small, uninformed minority that keeps bringing up the canard of leaving the WCC.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/06/opinionated.gif

SCU
03-15-2016, 11:37 AM
I find it amusing that basically every GU fan here assumes that Few's rant about "cellar dwellars" and "bottom feeders" was about USF.

Fact. USF's average WCC finish since the 2007-2008 season is 4.5. This means an average 4th or 5th place finish. USF finished tied for SECOND in the WCC 2 seasons ago and Walters was COY. Essentially USF has been a top 4 WCC team (or close) for the last decade. If you want to talk about cellar dwellars, feel free to discuss Pepp, SCU, LMU and USD, all teams that have vied for the bottom in recent seasons. Pacific will occupy that spot for the indefinite future.

And Few complaining about teams using share money for "swimming"? USF doesn't have a swim team. Pepp, LMU and USD do. So maybe Few wasn't talking about USF at all. Maybe he is talking about Reveno, who has done nothing at Portland for a very long time. Yeah, I know you all like him. Why wouldn't you? He guarantees that at least ONE team will never challenge you.

And Pepperdine? That team you want to bring (along with BYU and SMC) to your new fantasy league? They finished 7th, 7th, 5th and 4th in the last four WCC seasons.

And is spite of USF being a solid middle of the pack WCC team, USF still fired Walters. They have also committed $ 30m to facilities upgrades. We will also likely hire a very high profile head coach. USF is aware of the importance of a strong men's hoops program.

I find your plans for the Big East or A-10 pretty funny. I'm sure those 5 east coast trips every league season will be fun. The MWC? Unless you plan on reviving your football program, there is no chance of that.

Here's a fact for ya- USF spends the least on men's basketball of any team in WCC. Sounds really committed to me.

TexasZagFan
03-15-2016, 11:44 AM
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/06/opinionated.gif

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/e8/75/bc/e875bca32c146105fbadaa885c05f9eb.jpg

ZagsObserver
03-15-2016, 11:53 AM
I don't disagree that USF is not the worst offender. It would seem that if you ended the socialism (sharing of tournament revenue), that might be the natural incentive towards working towards building better programs. Is it fair that Gonzaga gets a fraction of what it has brought in consistently over the last 20 years and most of the remaining teams in the WCC take home TEN TIMES more revenue than they contribute in tourney dollars over those same 20 years? Is that fair, USF? That is what is driving Few's statements in part.


I find it amusing that basically every GU fan here assumes that Few's rant about "cellar dwellars" and "bottom feeders" was about USF.

Fact. USF's average WCC finish since the 2007-2008 season is 4.5. This means an average 4th or 5th place finish. USF finished tied for SECOND in the WCC 2 seasons ago and Walters was COY. Essentially USF has been a top 4 WCC team (or close) for the last decade. If you want to talk about cellar dwellars, feel free to discuss Pepp, SCU, LMU and USD, all teams that have vied for the bottom in recent seasons. Pacific will occupy that spot for the indefinite future.

And Few complaining about teams using share money for "swimming"? USF doesn't have a swim team. Pepp, LMU and USD do. So maybe Few wasn't talking about USF at all. Maybe he is talking about Reveno, who has done nothing at Portland for a very long time. Yeah, I know you all like him. Why wouldn't you? He guarantees that at least ONE team will never challenge you.

And Pepperdine? That team you want to bring (along with BYU and SMC) to your new fantasy league? They finished 7th, 7th, 5th and 4th in the last four WCC seasons.

And is spite of USF being a solid middle of the pack WCC team, USF still fired Walters. They have also committed $ 30m to facilities upgrades. We will also likely hire a very high profile head coach. USF is aware of the importance of a strong men's hoops program.

I find your plans for the Big East or A-10 pretty funny. I'm sure those 5 east coast trips every league season will be fun. The MWC? Unless you plan on reviving your football program, there is no chance of that.

ProjectMKUltra5
03-15-2016, 11:57 AM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/e8/75/bc/e875bca32c146105fbadaa885c05f9eb.jpg

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/big-lebowski-deal-with-it.gif

USF
03-15-2016, 11:58 AM
Does it matter how much you spend. It's the results that count. SCU spends more than USF, but USF has outperformed them. So?

TexasZagFan
03-15-2016, 12:01 PM
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/big-lebowski-deal-with-it.gif

lol, one of these days, I'm going to have to watch this movie, even if I'm not a big fan of Bridges.

SCU
03-15-2016, 12:09 PM
Does it matter how much you spend. It's the results that count. SCU spends more than USF, but USF has outperformed them. So?


Maybe Rex outperformed Keating, but that isn't the full stretch of Gonzaga's run. Evans/Sutton/Matthews didn't really out-perform Davey. Either way, both have been horrid. Neither team has been to the NCAA tournament during Gonzaga's 18 year run. Thus, neither has done anything but be a "taker" in the NCAA tournament revenue. Who marginally out-performed who is irrelevant, as clearly neither school is working hard enough to contribute. I think that's fair.

ProjectMKUltra5
03-15-2016, 12:11 PM
lol, one of these days, I'm going to have to watch this movie, even if I'm not a big fan of Bridges.

You have to see it. It's a Coen brothers classic

ZagsObserver
03-15-2016, 12:18 PM
Right on, SCU. +1


Maybe Rex outperformed Keating, but that isn't the full stretch of Gonzaga's run. Evans/Sutton/Matthews didn't really out-perform Davey. Either way, both have been horrid. Neither team has been to the NCAA tournament during Gonzaga's 18 year run. Thus, neither has done anything but be a "taker" in the NCAA tournament revenue. Who marginally out-performed who is irrelevant, as clearly neither school is working hard enough to contribute. I think that's fair.

vandalzag
03-15-2016, 12:19 PM
Does it matter how much you spend. It's the results that count. SCU spends more than USF, but USF has outperformed them. So?

So in the last 30 years the Dons have 3 post season appearances (NCAA & NIT...CBI and others do not count) and the Broncos have 4. Who exactly is outperforming who? Back to the point of the rant is that all teams in the WCC are dragging the top 3 teams down. Your team finished with SOS of 249 (worst in the league) Kenpom of 196 which basically equates to cashing league checks generated by the top teams and not trying. If every team schedules better then the league as a whole improves.

TexasZagFan
03-15-2016, 12:23 PM
So in the last 30 years the Dons have 3 post season appearances (NCAA & NIT...CBI and others do not count) and the Broncos have 4. Who exactly is outperforming who? Back to the point of the rant is that all teams in the WCC are dragging the top 3 teams down. Your team finished with SOS of 249 (worst in the league) Kenpom of 196 which basically equates to cashing league checks generated by the top teams and not trying. If every team schedules better then the league as a whole improves.

http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/4400226.jpg

According to the Bloomberg story, since 1991 USF has contributed $630K, while receiving $6.82 million, tying them with Portland.

BYU comes next with 3 units, contributing $1.76 million since joining the WCC.

Ezag
03-15-2016, 01:37 PM
USF -- RPI 227, SOS 241 is not what I would be proud of. If this is true of a typical 4th place team for the past decade then it makes the WCC look worse

Mantua
03-15-2016, 01:38 PM
Few may have been upset that Eric Reveno was fired while the school withheld resources from the basketball program.

I wonder if some coaches have not scheduled better games in the non conference because they have no travel funds?

Norwester
03-15-2016, 01:43 PM
And is spite of USF being a solid middle of the pack WCC team, USF still fired Walters. They have also committed $ 30m to facilities upgrades. We will also likely hire a very high profile head coach. USF is aware of the importance of a strong men's hoops program.

USF is a parasite, a leach, a sponge. USF receives roughly the same of amount of revenue through the WCC sharing system, but USF contributes NOTHING. And don't bring up 1998. The automatic bid to the tournament doesn't mean anything in terms of revenue, the conference receives the money for the auto bid's first game of the tournament, regardless of which team plays. And USF lost its game. It's the teams that get beyond the first round, or which receive at large bids, that generate money for the conference. If a school makes a conscious decision to be a parasite, so be it, let them; but to be equitable and reward excellence and effort, the conference should change its socialistic share-and-share alike NCAA tournament revenue distribution system and pay out more to teams that make it to later rounds or which earn at-large bids. The successful should get larger pieces of the pie.

Norwester
03-15-2016, 01:48 PM
http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/4400226.jpg

According to the Bloomberg story, since 1991 USF has contributed $630K, while receiving $6.82 million, tying them with Portland.

That figure is misleading. USF is being credited with "contributing" $630K because they received the automatic bid in 2008 by virtue of winning the WCC tournament. The conference would have received that money (and any money for any auto bid's first game) regardless. The same applies for Portland, which received the auto bid in 1996. In reality, USF and Portland have contributed NOTHING since 1991.

vandalzag
03-15-2016, 01:54 PM
USF is a parasite, a leach, a sponge. USF receives roughly the same of amount of revenue through the WCC sharing system, but USF contributes NOTHING. And don't bring up 1998. The automatic bid to the tournament doesn't mean anything in terms of revenue, the conference receives the money for the auto bid's first game of the tournament, regardless of which team plays. It's the teams that get beyond the first round, or which receive at large bids, that generate money for the conference. If a school makes a conscious decision to be a parasite, so be it, let them; but to be equitable and reward excellence and effort, the conference should change its socialistic share-and-share alike NCAA tournament revenue distribution system and pay out more to teams that make it to later rounds or which earn at-large bids. The successful should get larger pieces of the pie.

https://media.giphy.com/media/13py6c5BSnBkic/giphy.gif

SCU
03-15-2016, 01:59 PM
That figure is misleading. USF is being credited with "contributing" $630K because they received the automatic bid in 2008 by virtue of winning the WCC tournament. The conference would have received that money (and any money for any auto bid's first game) regardless. The same applies for Portland, which received the auto bid in 1996. In reality, USF and Portland have contributed NOTHING since 1991.

USF went in the 90's

USD went in 2008

Just for whatever it's worth

Zagdog71
03-15-2016, 04:05 PM
Back to an earlier part of this thread. I applaud Mark for his recent comments about conference teams. Bet the other coaches and ADs are glad he spoke up now when the focus is on basketball. Will this move any university administrators? Can only hope it does a bit.

Few and Mike Roth have worked very hard to improve the WCC. It took years to upgrade the tournament to a neutral court in Vegas from the Slim Gym, SCU, and Chiles. Don't know how they felt about Pacific joining, but I recall others on the board saying that GU was not in favor. The Bay area schools got their way.

Recently GU lost the argument to have an unbalanced schedule which would make it easier to play against out of conference teams. May be that will be revisited by the WCC in the coming years and the conference will listen to GU.

The WCC is the natural and best overall fit for GU athletics even if our basketball program is an exception. No realistic options in my book.

I've always wanted Seattle U to be the third NW school (with the Seattle market) but understood the argument against them when SU was reestablishing Division I sports. Afraid the ship has sailed on them unless the conference expands to 12 teams or BYU leaves and makes a spot open. At some point may be GU will advocate for SU.

Mark Few and Mike Roth will continue their efforts to enlighten the conference. The WCC is our home and will be in the future.

seacatfan
03-15-2016, 04:17 PM
I can understand the Seattle market is appealing, but SU is going absolutely nowhere since moving up to D1. What's it been, 6+ years? Grand Canyon U. is pretty much brand new and already doing better and appearing to be moving the right direction. Anyway if it came to that, swapping BYU for SU would be a HUGE downgrade for the WCC.

USF
03-15-2016, 04:42 PM
Ah, Norwester. The guy who posts from San Francisco and has had a very unhealthy obsession with USF under several different screen names on several different boards. Gee, I wonder who that is.

zagfan94
03-15-2016, 04:52 PM
I can understand the Seattle market is appealing, but SU is going absolutely nowhere since moving up to D1. What's it been, 6+ years? Grand Canyon U. is pretty much brand new and already doing better and appearing to be moving the right direction. Anyway if it came to that, swapping BYU for SU would be a HUGE downgrade for the WCC.

Weren't they not eligible for post season play their first few years? Might just need a bit more time.

FriscoKid
03-15-2016, 04:57 PM
Ah, Norwester. The guy who posts from San Francisco and has had a very unhealthy obsession with USF under several different screen names on several different boards. Gee, I wonder who that is.

Ah, QD. True spokesman for all things USF and the WCC. All Hail our Hero, USF.

USF
03-15-2016, 05:01 PM
Hi Larry

Zagsker
03-15-2016, 05:03 PM
lol, one of these days, I'm going to have to watch this movie, even if I'm not a big fan of Bridges.

Not a big Bridges fan either....but "The Big Lebowski" is gold

BYU
03-15-2016, 05:25 PM
Does it matter how much you spend. It's the results that count. SCU spends more than USF, but USF has outperformed them. So?

Yes. It does matter. Dollars spent don't equal wins, but not investing in a program seems to have a solid track record of leading to bad teams.

seacatfan
03-15-2016, 05:29 PM
Weren't they not eligible for post season play their first few years? Might just need a bit more time.

Very good point. Yeah you'd definitely want to wait for the probationary period to end. I'm not even advocating adding GCU, just saying I'd prefer them to SU.

seacatfan
03-15-2016, 05:30 PM
We got quite the party going on in here. USF, SCU and BYU fans all weighing in. Anyone else? Maybe Nevada Don has chimed in, not sure if he's in this thread but he's been a regular participant on this board, repping SMC.

ProVeeZag
03-15-2016, 05:37 PM
I think it's important to note that you don't have to necessarily win the WCC auto-bid or even get an at-large bid to contribute to the health of the conference. Why didn't St Mary's get an at-large bid 2 days ago? One big factor was weak SOS, more to the point the weakness of the WCC overall. For example, USD doesn't have to qualify for an NCAA berth in order to boost the conference. If the WCC teams that place 5th thru 10th were just able to bump their programs relative to the rest of the NCAA teams nationwide in terms of BPI/RPI/KenPom/insert metric of your choice here, that might mean an extra at-large bid for the WCC. Somebody's always gonna finish 10th, but that doesn't mean they have to be an absolute boat anchor for the other 9 teams. If you get an honest effort throughout the WCC for teams for boot-strap their own programs, I doubt there will be any moaning from the top 3 or 4 that the rest aren't paying their way. (Anybody want to apply this methodology to our society as a whole? Not here....please.)

LongIslandZagFan
03-15-2016, 06:09 PM
USF is a parasite, a leach, a sponge. USF receives roughly the same of amount of revenue through the WCC sharing system, but USF contributes NOTHING. And don't bring up 1998. The automatic bid to the tournament doesn't mean anything in terms of revenue, the conference receives the money for the auto bid's first game of the tournament, regardless of which team plays. And USF lost its game. It's the teams that get beyond the first round, or which receive at large bids, that generate money for the conference. If a school makes a conscious decision to be a parasite, so be it, let them; but to be equitable and reward excellence and effort, the conference should change its socialistic share-and-share alike NCAA tournament revenue distribution system and pay out more to teams that make it to later rounds or which earn at-large bids. The successful should get larger pieces of the pie.

Just gonna ask... can we tone the rhetoric down a smidge?

LongIslandZagFan
03-15-2016, 06:17 PM
IMHO... I think the talent level of the conference should be good enough that every team could strive to have a top 200 RPI. If that means that the bottom half cupcakes a touch on off years, so be it. But if they beef up their SOS, be willing to play anyone,anytime, anywhere... the RPI will rise with solid OOC wins. It should be every program in the conference's goal to be top 200. It ISN'T as if it is unattainable. There have been seasons where the WCC was ranked 7 or 8... and that was because all but 2 of the 8/9/10 were in the top 200.

Someone said, if you can't hit that threshold, you don't get your slice of the money. I think that is fair for everyone. Why? Because striving to be there only helps the programs in the end. Right now, the only real incentive is to not lose your head coaching job. Keating shows you that you can drag that out for 8 years.

LongIslandZagFan
03-15-2016, 06:28 PM
Case in point:

2014-15... WCC ranked 9 overall.

3 of the 10 teams were sub 200 (SCU 206, Pacific 244, LMU 267)

Heck, I'd give SCU almost a pass being so close. LMU, well ugh... looking at the schedule... they were trying... but probably overly ambitious.

The WCC should expect to never be worse that 12th ranked conference and strive for top 10 every year.

SCU
03-15-2016, 06:45 PM
IMHO... I think the talent level of the conference should be good enough that every team could strive to have a top 200 RPI. If that means that the bottom half cupcakes a touch on off years, so be it. But if they beef up their SOS, be willing to play anyone,anytime, anywhere... the RPI will rise with solid OOC wins. It should be every program in the conference's goal to be top 200. It ISN'T as if it is unattainable. There have been seasons where the WCC was ranked 7 or 8... and that was because all but 2 of the 8/9/10 were in the top 200.

Someone said, if you can't hit that threshold, you don't get your slice of the money. I think that is fair for everyone. Why? Because striving to be there only helps the programs in the end. Right now, the only real incentive is to not lose your head coaching job. Keating shows you that you can drag that out for 8 years.

I didn't like Keating, but he did in fact schedule more tough OOC games than most... Certainly more than he gets credit for.

Just off the top of my head, we played @Notre Dame, @Duke, @Saint Louis, @Utah, @Minnesota, @Stanford, @SDSU, @Michigan State, @Georgia, @Arizona, @Harvard, @USC, neutrals with New Mexico, UNLV, Tennessee, USF (the other one), Arizona, Boston College, Villanova, Oklahoma, and hosted Washington State, UNLV, Arizona, Utah State. Plus a good number of mid-majors who made the dance or won 20 games.

The problem was winning the games... though a handful of those were W's (Utah, SLU, New Mexico, BC, Nova, Wazzu)

Still, I don't think any other of the 7 "problem child" WCC teams scheduled that tough, though granted this is over 9 years. There are at least a handful more I forgot. I still think credit is due, that is a very healthy smattering of opponents, including getting us into a fair number of ESPN tournaments early in the year.

ehk 21
03-16-2016, 12:13 AM
Another WCC cellar dweller is making a move: the University of Portland fired Eric Reveno. UP doesn't put much money into its athletics and the central administration isn't interested in sports all that much. However, now that the glow of the two women's soccer team national championships that the athletic department has lived off of for the last decade has evaporated, perhaps they will wake up and try to be more competitive. But don't bet on it...UP just isn't a sports school and never really ever has been.

Zagger
03-16-2016, 02:39 AM
http://www.slipperstillfits.com/2016/3/15/11239888/wcc-coaching-gonzaga-mark-few-comments
Sorry if this has already been referenced.

Opinion here ..... Programs take time to build. GU's program is quite exceptional (HBO didn't pick it foolishly, etc.). For other WCC schools to boot strap it up a notch or two they'll need help, the right staffs, etc. The more GU can help the WCC the better - as opposed to becoming a victim of its own success. "Help" can come in a variety of forms, deeds, conducts, examples, etc. and need not be overt. The bottom line, to me, is that every kid in sports in this league should get the utmost respect and support that their schools can offer. Spreading out NCAA funds, I feel, is crucial in that regard.

Outraged
03-16-2016, 05:39 AM
The bottom feeders cost the league about $3million in revenue by playing cupcakes by lowering everyone's rpi which prevented two teams getting into the Dance. So I think if ypu have a 200 rpi or higher you should have to pay $500k to the league and .Get no share of the revenue. The only thing they would get is a bought home game for a below 200rpi opponent. They should also be fined for low fan attendance (less than a 1000).

There should be scheduling guidelines that limit the cupcakes teams can play like no 250+. Etc.

I would only want to see an SMU or Creighton type team added . Grand canyon has tremendous fans and a good homecourt so they would be welcome too you can't buy those elements they just happen like gu and buy.

Make them pay if they don't perform or send their div2 performance to a D2 league so they can hang with the society of compassionate mediocrity.

TexasZagFan
03-16-2016, 06:00 AM
The bottom feeders cost the league about $3million in revenue by playing cupcakes by lowering everyone's rpi which prevented two teams getting into the Dance. So I think if ypu have a 200 rpi or higher you should have to pay $500k to the league and .Get no share of the revenue. The only thing they would get is a bought home game for a below 200rpi opponent. They should also be fined for low fan attendance (less than a 1000).

There should be scheduling guidelines that limit the cupcakes teams can play like no 250+. Etc.

I would only want to see an SMU or Creighton type team added . Grand canyon has tremendous fans and a good homecourt so they would be welcome too you can't buy those elements they just happen like gu and buy.

Make them pay if they don't perform or send their div2 performance to a D2 league so they can hang with the society of compassionate mediocrity.

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2013-14%20Revenue%20Distribution%20Plan.pdf

Per the link I posted, according to the NCAA, the following amounts were distributed to the WCC 2009-2013:

2009 - $3.3 million
2010 - $3.5 million
2011 - $4.5 million
2012 - $4.4 million
2013 - $4.9 million

Total - $20.6 million

Assuming an equal distribution, that works out to roughly $2 million per school, or $400K a year. Not a large sum of money in today's world, but what would an additional $50K-$100K do for the recruiting budget?

Given our Elite 8 run last year, there's no doubt the flow of funds won't drop over the next five years. Aren't athletic directors smart enough to put a plan together to maximize those additional dollars? Maybe the bottom half already has, in terms of paying more to bring in better coaches?

maynard g krebs
03-16-2016, 10:36 AM
You have to see it. It's a Coen brothers classic

"Tell me about yourself, Jeffrey. What do you do for entertainment"

"Oh, the usual. Bowl. Drive around. The occasional acid flashback".

maynard g krebs
03-16-2016, 10:43 AM
I wonder if some coaches have not scheduled better games in the non conference because they have no travel funds?

I don't think that's it, because a lot of teams from lower level conferences (Arkansas-Pine Bluff, Miss Valley St. for ex) go on extended road trips and play body bag games in Nov/Dec for the guarantee money to finance their programs. I think those games get a guarantee in the 50-100 k area.

bartruff1
03-16-2016, 10:57 AM
I suspect the Administrators of the WCC Schools are making decisions that are in their self interest and could care less what Coach Few has to say.

If Few or Gonzaga isn't happy in the WCC....well....don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out....

23dpg
03-16-2016, 11:12 AM
I suspect the Administrators of the WCC Schools are making decisions that are in their self interest and could care less what Coach Few has to say.

If Few or Gonzaga isn't happy in the WCC....well....don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out....

Do you really think the WCC would be ok with Gonzaga leaving?

bartruff1
03-16-2016, 11:14 AM
Of course it would...it was around long before Gonzaga joined and will be around long after Gonzaga leaves....if it does....

23dpg
03-16-2016, 11:16 AM
Of course it would...it was around long before Gonzaga joined and will be around long after Gonzaga leaves....if it does....

Respectfully disagree but I doubt we find out any time soon.

Mantua
03-16-2016, 11:18 AM
I don't think that's it, because a lot of teams from lower level conferences (Arkansas-Pine Bluff, Miss Valley St. for ex) go on extended road trips and play body bag games in Nov/Dec for the guarantee money to finance their programs. I think those games get a guarantee in the 50-100 k area.

So there's no excuse for not making more effort.

maynard g krebs
03-16-2016, 11:24 AM
The bottom feeders cost the league about $3million in revenue by playing cupcakes by lowering everyone's rpi which prevented two teams getting into the Dance. So I think if ypu have a 200 rpi or higher you should have to pay $500k to the league and .Get no share of the revenue. The only thing they would get is a bought home game for a below 200rpi opponent. They should also be fined for low fan attendance (less than a 1000).

There should be scheduling guidelines that limit the cupcakes teams can play like no 250+. Etc.



I do want teams to play better schedules, but not for the reason above. My reason for doing so is that it allows you to recruit better talent if you play better opponents. Watched LBSU last nite and they have Maryland and SC transfers, for example.

As to RPI, there is a misconception here imo. Here's why: 50% of rpi is opponents' record, and 25% is opponents' opponents record. So say all WCC teams play Duke, Kansas etc exclusively in the noncon and go 0-12, then the average conference record, after an average league record of 9-9, would be 9-21 ir 30%. Now assuming those noncon opponents all go 28-4, GU's opponents' opponent rpi component would be 87.5%

(.50 x .3) + (.25 x .875) = .369

Now assume WCC plays all teams like Mississippi Valley state and wins every game, going 12-0 in noncon. Then the average record, after a conf ave of 9-9, is 21-9. Now assuming these bottom feeders have an average overall record of 4-28, GU's league opponent rpi component would be:

(.50 x .7) + (.25 x .125) = ..381

I know those hypotheticals don't hold a lot of water, but I think they make a point. But SMC is a case in point. Everybody #####es about their schedule, but beating them in the tourney bumped GU's rpi from what, the 60's into the top 50, because SMC's overall record (27-5) helped the Zags a lot more than their non con sched hurt. League noncon scheduling alone won't help that much if at all and actually hurts if teams go out and get losing records; the key to helping GU's rpi is that all teams have good out of conference records. That's how the power conferences do it; they win 80% of their noncon games playing a lot of cupcakes and a few good opponents(in general) and their rpi then rises as they play each other. Bottom line is you have to recruit players who can win some of those OOC games, and winning records for conference teams mean a better opponent rpi for GU opponents than WCC OOC scheduling does.

LongIslandZagFan
03-16-2016, 11:39 AM
lol, one of these days, I'm going to have to watch this movie, even if I'm not a big fan of Bridges.

The Dude should abide and watch this movie. Goodman is awesome, Bridges is awesome as well. Get past your hangups with Jeff and sit down and watch it.

strikenowhere
03-16-2016, 12:02 PM
Of course it would...it was around long before Gonzaga joined and will be around long after Gonzaga leaves....if it does....

Wasn't there just a chart showing how much money the Zags have made for the conference over the last 16 years and how nobody else really pulls their weight? While they might not care to lose Few and Gonzaga, they sure as heck do care about losing those extra dollars being brought in.

ZagsObserver
03-16-2016, 12:11 PM
Well, not exactly. if I owned several duplexes and one tenant accounted for an inordinate amount of my rental income, which I could not come close to replacing with a new tenant, I would do my best to keep the tenant bringing in all the revenue happy. I would probably offer additional perks to keep the tenant. Would I survive without him or her? Probably yes, after tightening my boot straps considerably.


Of course it would...it was around long before Gonzaga joined and will be around long after Gonzaga leaves....if it does....

TexasZagFan
03-16-2016, 12:39 PM
Wasn't there just a chart showing how much money the Zags have made for the conference over the last 16 years and how nobody else really pulls their weight? While they might not care to lose Few and Gonzaga, they sure as heck do care about losing those extra dollars being brought in.

Here's the link:

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-march-madness-basketball-fund/

The Zags march to the Elite 8 last year alone will be worth about $6.5 million to the WCC over the next six years. Each unit (game played up through the Final Four) is now worth $1.6 million, spread over 6 years.

According to the article, Gonzaga has earned nearly 60% of the WCC's basketball fund revenue ($34MM). That load was carried earlier by Pepperdine and LMU. SMC is next, with close to $9 million.

ZagsObserver
03-16-2016, 12:55 PM
And you need to add about 4 units to account for last year, and at least one for this year as well for GU, since the article was written last year.


Here's the link:

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-march-madness-basketball-fund/

The Zags march to the Elite 8 last year alone will be worth about $6.5 million to the WCC over the next six years. Each unit (game played up through the Final Four) is now worth $1.6 million, spread over 6 years.

According to the article, Gonzaga has earned nearly 60% of the WCC's basketball fund revenue ($34MM). That load was carried earlier by Pepperdine and LMU. SMC is next, with close to $9 million.

Norwester
03-16-2016, 12:56 PM
Dave Rose and KSL weigh in:


“Mark’s been in the league long enough and has been successful enough that he can have an opinion on that,” said BYU coach Dave Rose. “If that’s his opinion then probably we all ought to listen to him see what we can do to maybe change it.”

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=38918614&nid=294

75Zag
03-16-2016, 01:06 PM
Great comments, but if you accept as fact that GU has no way out of the WCC due to the various explanations above, and if you acknowledge the reality that every substantive decision in the WCC is made by a majority vote of the 10 ADs (or Presidents) in the WCC, it would appear that GU will continue to earn the vast majority of NCAA money and the bottom dwellers will continue to firmly attach their lips to the league teat with no changes in sight. Reality Bites.

Go Bulldogs!

ZagsGoZags
03-22-2016, 12:48 AM
Here are some thoughtful comments from BYU board on this subject:


Here's what the WCC should do:
One thing I've been wanting to see the WCC do is to expand to 12 teams and then do an unbalanced schedule based on the previous season's standings. This would accomplish a couple of things:

1. The top teams in the WCC would play fewer games against the dregs of the conference

2. The schools in the WCC that just wait to cash in on the annual home games vs Gonzaga and BYU would now have to earn the right to be guaranteed those games on their home floor every year.

+1 NCAA Tournament money should only be distributed to teams that qualify for a postseason tournament. The WCC doesn't need four teams in the NCAA Tournament, but it shouldn't be too much to ask for 60% of the conference to qualify for one of the five postseason tournaments.


and


Sure, most of the WCC schools have no chance of getting to what Gonzaga or BYU
have been able to build their programs into. They both have unique circumstances that put them in a different category than pretty much all the other teams in the WCC. But I don't think that Few is expecting them to. He's asking for them to be more like St. Mary's. SMC is quite similar overall to the other WCC schools, but they've managed to build a respectable basketball program while facing pretty much all the same challenges most of the other WCC schools face. It's a fairly recent thing for St. Mary's as well, so it's not as if they're benefiting from some mythical past legacy that the other WCC schools don't have. It feels like a lot of the WCC schools are doing what the Pittsburgh Pirates did for nearly two decades, purposely not investing much into their teams in order to reap the benefits of revenue sharing without having to put any effort in. The other WCC schools all have various Olympic sports that they excel at, but for basketball they don't invest nearly the effort that they do into those Olympic sports, knowing that being in a basketball conference with what are essentially a couple of P5-level teams will get them plenty of cash regardless of how they perform. If Portland invested half as much energy into basketball as they do into women's soccer, they'd have a real shot to field a team that makes it to the Big Dance at least once or twice a decade.

Spike94
03-22-2016, 04:11 AM
I disagree that GU has some special circumstance that makes them different from other WCC schools. The only difference is that GU put in the work and made the sacrifices to get here. I was there when the only place to by a GU shirt IN SPOKANE was at the bookstore. Or when Martin Centre was half full. Or when we went to NY to play Duke with no return or any number of games like that. What we have didn't happen overnight. It was a long trip. The problem is that many teams in the WCC refuse to even get on the road, and Saint Mary's thinks they have already arrived and refuse to play those games. I know there isn't any other option, but I refuse to allow people to think that for some reason we are different. We have everything including K2 from grit, hard work, and a little luck along the way.

oldestlion
03-22-2016, 12:52 PM
What a great position to be in, Zags. To say we're envious is an understatement.

Be careful what you ask for. We uttered the same words as Few when we had the Elite Eight team, losing to national champ Las Vegas in the regional final. Look where that got us - our administration has never understood the power of a winnng program

Go Zags and bring home a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, for Gonzaga, and the WCC and maybe you'll wake up the rest of the league.

soccerdud
03-24-2016, 11:40 AM
dear randy bennett, et al:

http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/entry/need_scheduling_help

sittingon50
03-24-2016, 11:43 AM
"how to game the system." Great.:fingergun:

TexasZagFan
03-24-2016, 12:05 PM
What a great position to be in, Zags. To say we're envious is an understatement.

Be careful what you ask for. We uttered the same words as Few when we had the Elite Eight team, losing to national champ Las Vegas in the regional final. Look where that got us - our administration has never understood the power of a winnng program

Go Zags and bring home a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, for Gonzaga, and the WCC and maybe you'll wake up the rest of the league.

Thanks Lion. I just updated a spreadsheet I put together on estimated distribution of tournament $$$.Though likely not 100% accurate, I'm sure it's in the ballpark. I have the Zags with 3 units for this year, don't want to get ahead of myself.

Not sure about the timing, so I went with the checks going out the following year, i.e. this year's money will be distributed next year.

Projected cut for teams, based on even split of annual receipts, though I understand the conference takes a cut:

2016 - $640K
2017 - $587K
2018 - $533K (+ 2017)
2019 - $400K (+ 2017 + 2018)

Getting multiple bids is critical. 2010 & 2012 were huge, comparatively speaking: both years, WCC earned 5 units, or roughly $8 million spread out over 6 years. Zags can max out with 5 units this year by making it to their first Final Four. We've now done no worst than two units per year for the past 8 years.

Perhaps the WCC Commissioner can bring in KenPom for training sessions this summer.

TexasZagFan
03-24-2016, 12:07 PM
"how to game the system." Great.:fingergun:

Wasn't it the Pac-12 that "massaged the system" this year? With 7 teams in (IIRC), that's a minimum of $11 million spread over 6 years. ACC is likely to score $30 million, if not more.

Outraged
03-24-2016, 09:44 PM
The real iussue is that we need to get three teams into the tournament every year. If all teams worked together and scheduled effectively we coulld have done it this year.

The conference needs to do what gonzaga has done at the conference level. We have to be different. Think and do things differently. Create a new brand and try to be like no one else. coaches need to callaborate as a group with a coach derived conference goal. Schedule together to attract teams for double conference visits so the visiting team gets two pay checks. Don't sckedule 275+ rpi teams. Etc etc. Create fan bases at all schools. Make acc mean something.

ProVeeZag
03-24-2016, 10:58 PM
"Tell me about yourself, Jeffrey. What do you do for entertainment"

"Oh, the usual. Bowl. Drive around. The occasional acid flashback".

Sounds like my high school routine (well, 2 out of the 3 anyway)! More like: "Bowl, drive around, find someone to buy you a 12-pack of Schlitz".

Outraged
03-25-2016, 08:02 PM
Sounds like my high school routine (well, 2 out of the 3 anyway)! More like: "Bowl, drive around, find someone to buy you a 12-pack of Schlitz".

Old milukee was a better value. Forgive my english I am drinking negra modello for the last time.

TexasZagFan
03-28-2016, 12:56 PM
Bump

SCU
03-31-2016, 06:08 AM
I thought this article is a nice bookend on this thread

http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_29705525/santa-clara-stepping-up-basketball-commitment-herb-sendek

Seems Santa Clara is trying their best to step up their commitment to basketball success, hopefully the fruits of this (which began before Few's comments :) ) will be good for the entire league.

Bogozags
03-31-2016, 06:28 AM
Wasn't it the Pac-12 that "massaged the system" this year? With 7 teams in (IIRC), that's a minimum of $11 million spread over 6 years. ACC is likely to score $30 million, if not more.

TZF - The ACC is going to have 32 units for this year alone! That is a boat load of money and probably rivals their return from the football playoffs...

TexasZagFan
03-31-2016, 12:14 PM
TZF - The ACC is going to have 32 units for this year alone! That is a boat load of money and probably rivals their return from the football playoffs...

No kidding...that's 5 million a year for the next six years, but now it's divided among 16 teams, or $300K per school. I doubt it rivals their cut of the football money though. Hoops is a red headed step child compared to football.

TexasZagFan
03-31-2016, 12:14 PM
I thought this article is a nice bookend on this thread

http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_29705525/santa-clara-stepping-up-basketball-commitment-herb-sendek

Seems Santa Clara is trying their best to step up their commitment to basketball success, hopefully the fruits of this (which began before Few's comments :) ) will be good for the entire league.

Thanks for posting. Question: does that mean that Keating didn't get the support he deserved?

GrizZAG
03-31-2016, 12:56 PM
I thought this article is a nice bookend on this thread

http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_29705525/santa-clara-stepping-up-basketball-commitment-herb-sendek

Seems Santa Clara is trying their best to step up their commitment to basketball success, hopefully the fruits of this (which began before Few's comments :) ) will be good for the entire league.

Excellent. The Prez is right. The entire school elevates with sport success (especially football and basketball). Ask Gonzaga

Zagceo
03-31-2016, 02:13 PM
I thought this article is a nice bookend on this thread

http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_29705525/santa-clara-stepping-up-basketball-commitment-herb-sendek

Seems Santa Clara is trying their best to step up their commitment to basketball success, hopefully the fruits of this (which began before Few's comments :) ) will be good for the entire league.

Great new start.........so much to work with and admin is on board.....coach has proven record.

Get to the tourney and Sendek will be a hero......he's gotta love that low bar for now.

Go SCU

sideshow06
03-31-2016, 02:26 PM
I disagree that GU has some special circumstance that makes them different from other WCC schools. The only difference is that GU put in the work and made the sacrifices to get here. I was there when the only place to by a GU shirt IN SPOKANE was at the bookstore. Or when Martin Centre was half full. Or when we went to NY to play Duke with no return or any number of games like that. What we have didn't happen overnight. It was a long trip. The problem is that many teams in the WCC refuse to even get on the road, and Saint Mary's thinks they have already arrived and refuse to play those games. I know there isn't any other option, but I refuse to allow people to think that for some reason we are different. We have everything including K2 from grit, hard work, and a little luck along the way.

As a fan/alum of a school (SMC) often accused of following in the model of GU (not really), I would say that the circumstances ARE different. Very different. I've been around the WCC since the days you speak of when GU was just slightly above average in the WCC. But I would argue that if GU did exactly the same thing they did 10-15 years ago in the late-Monson/early-Few years, but were simply located on the exact geographical spot that SMC sits - simply a LOCATION change - that GU would NOT be the program they are today. They would never have been able to build K2 because the local fan-base would never support it, and if they had built it anyway it would be lucky to be about 1/2 to 3/4 full most games (this is why SMC will not be building a 5000k seat arena... EVER). The local interest would be much lower as you'd be competing with Pac-12 teams like Cal and Stanford for coverage in the local media and with rare exception wouldn't get even a mention unless you did something spectacular, like make a Sweet 16 - which would then be forgotten in favor of more Cal and Stanford coverage over the summer. Not to mention the 2 other WCC teams you'd be fighting for coverage with. Oh, and the dozen or so PRO teams. You would simply never get the same local traction, leading to the same national profile that could get a guy like Wiltjer to ever consider transferring from a school like Kentucky to your bucolic little campus.

Look, I'm not griping for SMC either. We have our thing. I'd love a tougher OOC schedule. If it doesn't happen next year given our team then RB will start losing the support of his own fans on that point (and he has tons of goodwill here for obvious reasons). But even if we follow the old GU model to the letter it's not going to bring us to where you are. We will never be the big fish in our local area. The bay area is too stuffed with other options. In Spokane, GU may not have always been as big, but they've never had to compete for attention with other D1 colleges and 1-2 pro sports teams in every major sports league.

Maybe it doesn't seem that way being there in Spokane, but the circumstances ARE special for GU. Not that you should be ashamed of it. It's worked out perfectly for you. And yes, it's been hard work and effort and a touch of luck here and there. GU has done everything right and is a model for how a mid-major could get itself national attention. I respect all of it. But not every mid-major school would be able to follow that model to the same success. Most of the WCC schools are more like SMC than GU in that respect.

ZagsObserver
03-31-2016, 02:34 PM
It was 18 years ago. But not sure I agree. The reason you have more teams to compete with in the area is because you also have a significantly higher population base. More teams, greater population - I don't know, but I'm thinking they probably net out.




As a fan/alum of a school (SMC) often accused of following in the model of GU (not really), I would say that the circumstances ARE different. Very different. I've been around the WCC since the days you speak of when GU was just slightly above average in the WCC. But I would argue that if GU did exactly the same thing they did 10-15 years ago in the late-Monson/early-Few years, but were simply located on the exact geographical spot that SMC sits - simply a LOCATION change - that GU would NOT be the program they are today. They would never have been able to build K2 because the local fan-base would never support it, and if they had built it anyway it would be lucky to be about 1/2 to 3/4 full most games (this is why SMC will not be building a 5000k seat arena... EVER). The local interest would be much lower as you'd be competing with Pac-12 teams like Cal and Stanford for coverage in the local media and with rare exception wouldn't get even a mention unless you did something spectacular, like make a Sweet 16 - which would then be forgotten in favor of more Cal and Stanford coverage over the summer. Not to mention the 2 other WCC teams you'd be fighting for coverage with. Oh, and the dozen or so PRO teams. You would simply never get the same local traction, leading to the same national profile that could get a guy like Wiltjer to ever consider transferring from a school like Kentucky to your bucolic little campus.

Look, I'm not griping for SMC either. We have our thing. I'd love a tougher OOC schedule. If it doesn't happen next year given our team then RB will start losing the support of his own fans on that point (and he has tons of goodwill here for obvious reasons). But even if we follow the old GU model to the letter it's not going to bring us to where you are. We will never be the big fish in our local area. The bay area is too stuffed with other options. In Spokane, GU may not have always been as big, but they've never had to compete for attention with other D1 colleges and 1-2 pro sports teams in every major sports league.

Maybe it doesn't seem that way being there in Spokane, but the circumstances ARE special for GU. Not that you should be ashamed of it. It's worked out perfectly for you. And yes, it's been hard work and effort and a touch of luck here and there. GU has done everything right and is a model for how a mid-major could get itself national attention. I respect all of it. But not every mid-major school would be able to follow that model to the same success. Most of the WCC schools are more like SMC than GU in that respect.

willandi
03-31-2016, 03:19 PM
As a fan/alum of a school (SMC) often accused of following in the model of GU (not really), I would say that the circumstances ARE different. Very different. I've been around the WCC since the days you speak of when GU was just slightly above average in the WCC. But I would argue that if GU did exactly the same thing they did 10-15 years ago in the late-Monson/early-Few years, but were simply located on the exact geographical spot that SMC sits - simply a LOCATION change - that GU would NOT be the program they are today. They would never have been able to build K2 because the local fan-base would never support it, and if they had built it anyway it would be lucky to be about 1/2 to 3/4 full most games (this is why SMC will not be building a 5000k seat arena... EVER). The local interest would be much lower as you'd be competing with Pac-12 teams like Cal and Stanford for coverage in the local media and with rare exception wouldn't get even a mention unless you did something spectacular, like make a Sweet 16 - which would then be forgotten in favor of more Cal and Stanford coverage over the summer. Not to mention the 2 other WCC teams you'd be fighting for coverage with. Oh, and the dozen or so PRO teams. You would simply never get the same local traction, leading to the same national profile that could get a guy like Wiltjer to ever consider transferring from a school like Kentucky to your bucolic little campus.

Look, I'm not griping for SMC either. We have our thing. I'd love a tougher OOC schedule. If it doesn't happen next year given our team then RB will start losing the support of his own fans on that point (and he has tons of goodwill here for obvious reasons). But even if we follow the old GU model to the letter it's not going to bring us to where you are. We will never be the big fish in our local area. The bay area is too stuffed with other options. In Spokane, GU may not have always been as big, but they've never had to compete for attention with other D1 colleges and 1-2 pro sports teams in every major sports league.

Maybe it doesn't seem that way being there in Spokane, but the circumstances ARE special for GU. Not that you should be ashamed of it. It's worked out perfectly for you. And yes, it's been hard work and effort and a touch of luck here and there. GU has done everything right and is a model for how a mid-major could get itself national attention. I respect all of it. But not every mid-major school would be able to follow that model to the same success. Most of the WCC schools are more like SMC than GU in that respect.

SMC fills the Gym when the Zags come to town, would probably fill a 5000 seat arena. If SMC did the work and became a perennial top 25 team, played the road games to earn the right to expect home and homes with bigger schools, and actively worked to provide the best bang for the buck, they could, in my opinion, do what the Zags have done.

They don't play the road schedule the Zags did, heck their OCC was pretty poor this year, and it cost them. SMC should have at least a few alumni who would provide the bulk of the cost of a new arena. They can use the tournament money from the Zags to pay for OCC road trips. It sounds more like they want to be the Zags but aren't willing to make the effort.

roundup
03-31-2016, 03:50 PM
SMC fills the Gym when the Zags come to town, would probably fill a 5000 seat arena. If SMC did the work and became a perennial top 25 team, played the road games to earn the right to expect home and homes with bigger schools, and actively worked to provide the best bang for the buck, they could, in my opinion, do what the Zags have done.

They don't play the road schedule the Zags did, heck their OCC was pretty poor this year, and it cost them. SMC should have at least a few alumni who would provide the bulk of the cost of a new arena. They can use the tournament money from the Zags to pay for OCC road trips. It sounds more like they want to be the Zags but aren't willing to make the effort.

Shockingly, I would tend to agree with willandi to a certain extent. I think it has more to do with winning NCAA tournament games than a simple lack of effort. People went nuts when SMC made the sweet sixteen. Attendance was not an issue, student section was full, etc. If SMC was to go to an elite 8 and back to back sweet sixteens, fan and community support would skyrocket. If SMC followed that up by making 15 additional consecutive NCAA appearances, I think a new 4,500 stadium would be built and it would be packed on a regular basis.

So, theoretically, if SMC made three consecutive deeps runs in the tournament, I think the foundation would be laid for a new gym (with a season ticket wait list) and sustained community / media support in the Bay Area. We'd never be on the level of GU due to being in the Bay Area, but we could certainly be more than we are now.

The likelihood of SMC making consecutive deep runs in the tournament is a different story. GU managed to pull it off, caught lightning in a bottle, and built on that momentum to create a high major program in a mid major conference. It's impressive, unprecedented, and hard to recreate (even on a smaller scale).

That being said, SMC fans who remember the vibrancy of the program during Mills sophomore year when he was thought of as a no brainier lottery pick or when Mickey and Delly were running the show after the sweet sixteen know that the program's ceiling is not a 3/4 full McKeon..

WallaWallaZag
03-31-2016, 08:28 PM
Shockingly, I would tend to agree with willandi to a certain extent. I think it has more to do with winning NCAA tournament games than a simple lack of effort. People went nuts when SMC made the sweet sixteen. Attendance was not an issue, student section was full, etc. If SMC was to go to an elite 8 and back to back sweet sixteens, fan and community support would skyrocket. If SMC followed that up by making 15 additional consecutive NCAA appearances, I think a new 4,500 stadium would be built and it would be packed on a regular basis.
So, theoretically, if SMC made three consecutive deeps runs in the tournament, I think the foundation would be laid for a new gym (with a season ticket wait list) and sustained community / media support in the Bay Area. We'd never be on the level of GU due to being in the Bay Area, but we could certainly be more than we are now.
The likelihood of SMC making consecutive deep runs in the tournament is a different story. GU managed to pull it off, caught lightning in a bottle, and built on that momentum to create a high major program in a mid major conference. It's impressive, unprecedented, and hard to recreate (even on a smaller scale).
That being said, SMC fans who remember the vibrancy of the program during Mills sophomore year when he was thought of as a no brainier lottery pick or when Mickey and Delly were running the show after the sweet sixteen know that the program's ceiling is not a 3/4 full McKeon..

i'm a believer in the "if you build it they will come" idea...if smc built a sweet brand new 4-5k mini-arena you can bet they would have a lot easier time getting the home-n-homes that randy.b seems to absolutely insist upon. at least stanford and cal would be more willing to stop by more often and maybe a usc/ucla every now and then.

what kind of reception did the stanford game get this year??? was it on par with a zag game?

roundup
03-31-2016, 09:28 PM
what kind of reception did the stanford game get this year??? was it on par with a zag game?

Not as packed as the Zags game, but a sell out, full house, full student section, etc. Second best game of the year in terms of attendance. Rumor is some type of deal has been worked out with Cal for the next few years.

I'd like a new stadium as much as the next guy, but I'm not sure it would help a ton with scheduling or anything else for that matter. Currently, SMC has enough die hard fans to fill up 70% of the gym for a sleeper game and McKeon is small enough for that type of turnout to nonethless give the team a solid home court advantage if the situation calls for it (see UC Irvine or New Mexicom State Game). But if you added 1000 seats to the equation before you have fans to sit in them the end product is pretty depressing and any semblance of home court advantage has to overcome the crickets factor. Plus McKeon is endearing in a strange way.

willandi
04-01-2016, 05:43 AM
i'm a believer in the "if you build it they will come" idea...if smc built a sweet brand new 4-5k mini-arena you can bet they would have a lot easier time getting the home-n-homes that randy.b seems to absolutely insist upon. at least stanford and cal would be more willing to stop by more often and maybe a usc/ucla every now and then.

what kind of reception did the stanford game get this year??? was it on par with a zag game?

Randy B needs to take his show on the road before he can expect home and home from most of the big boys. Get the schedule amped up, then build the new arena.

bigblahla
04-01-2016, 06:12 AM
i'm a believer in the "if you build it they will come" idea...if smc built a sweet brand new 4-5k mini-arena you can bet they would have a lot easier time getting the home-n-homes that randy.b seems to absolutely insist upon. at least stanford and cal would be more willing to stop by more often and maybe a usc/ucla every now and then.

what kind of reception did the stanford game get this year??? was it on par with a zag game?

Moraga is not the easiest berg to get to and SMC is not a major draw in the bay area and most likely never will be....I think Gaels will always be challenged by their location and demographic...RB has built a winner but not many seem to care in the bay area.....Pepperdine, SCU and LMU are schools that can do much much more to raise the conference profile....all have been on top in the WCC before....Pacific getting better would help also...WCC could be much better in 2-3 years ...can't see it getting much worse unless BYU bolts....

Just my opinion...

Go!! Zags!!!

sideshow06
04-01-2016, 09:37 AM
i'm a believer in the "if you build it they will come" idea...if smc built a sweet brand new 4-5k mini-arena you can bet they would have a lot easier time getting the home-n-homes that randy.b seems to absolutely insist upon. at least stanford and cal would be more willing to stop by more often and maybe a usc/ucla every now and then.

what kind of reception did the stanford game get this year??? was it on par with a zag game?

I don't have attendance numbers, but the Stanford game was nowhere near the draw of the Gonzaga game. It was probably mostly full and maybe "technically" a sold out game. But no standing room fans to raise the fire marshall's ire. I mean, that's not unexpected. The Zags are now considered our #1 rival. If we'd had a game scheduled against Kentucky or Duke, or another Top-10 ranked team then yes... we would probably do similar. But even if we could get ONE game like that, we'll never fill a schedule with them. A middle of the road, decent-RPI, P5 major team in and of itself isn't enough of a draw to get bay area people who aren't already SMC alums or students to drive out to Moraga. It's just not. And though we absolutely could and should schedule more of those types of teams and our attendance would probably be overall better than when we play Northern Who-Knows-Where, it's not going to pack the house every night.

I get what some of you are saying. We have no idea what it would be like if we had three consecutive Sweet-16 or better runs - it would definitely improve our visibility in the Bay Area. But we've had 20-25-win seasons for more than a DECADE. Cal has one good year this season and no one cares what we're doing by comparison. THIS VERY YEAR, with all of our success, winning a share of the league title, 29 wins, 2 NIT wins, 2 wins over rival Gonzaga... Cal dwarfed us in press, and middle of the Pac-12 Stanford got just as much as us. We are small potatoes in the bay area seemingly no matter what we do.

Some of you just don't seem to get where SMC is situated geographically. It's a good 10-15 minute drive through a series of winding, hilly and sleepy neighborhoods from the nearest main freeway. It's way off the beaten trail. I admittedly haven't been to McCarthy, but a quick look on Google Maps shows it's a few blocks down from the nearest freeway. SMC is several MILES from the nearest freeway, buried in an absolutely beautiful valley that NO ONE goes to unless they live there or specifically plan a trip to SMC.

We absolutely have a game here and there that could support a crowd bigger than 5000. But I don't see a scenario where we could ever support an arena on campus that is that big.

I'm not griping. Just saying it's apples and oranges in a big way.

willandi
04-01-2016, 09:47 AM
I don't have attendance numbers, but the Stanford game was nowhere near the draw of the Gonzaga game. It was probably mostly full and maybe "technically" a sold out game. But no standing room fans to raise the fire marshall's ire. I mean, that's not unexpected. The Zags are now considered our #1 rival. If we'd had a game scheduled against Kentucky or Duke, or another Top-10 ranked team then yes... we would probably do similar. But even if we could get ONE game like that, we'll never fill a schedule with them. A middle of the road, decent-RPI, P5 major team in and of itself isn't enough of a draw to get bay area people who aren't already SMC alums or students to drive out to Moraga. It's just not. And though we absolutely could and should schedule more of those types of teams and our attendance would probably be overall better than when we play Northern Who-Knows-Where, it's not going to pack the house every night.

I get what some of you are saying. We have no idea what it would be like if we had three consecutive Sweet-16 or better runs - it would definitely improve our visibility in the Bay Area. But we've had 20-25-win seasons for more than a DECADE. Cal has one good year this season and no one cares what we're doing by comparison. THIS VERY YEAR, with all of our success, winning a share of the league title, 29 wins, 2 NIT wins, 2 wins over rival Gonzaga... Cal dwarfed us in press, and middle of the Pac-12 Stanford got just as much as us. We are small potatoes in the bay area seemingly no matter what we do.

Some of you just don't seem to get where SMC is situated geographically. It's a good 10-15 minute drive through a series of winding, hilly and sleepy neighborhoods from the nearest main freeway. It's way off the beaten trail. I admittedly haven't been to McCarthy, but a quick look on Google Maps shows it's a few blocks down from the nearest freeway. SMC is several MILES from the nearest freeway, buried in an absolutely beautiful valley that NO ONE goes to unless they live there or specifically plan a trip to SMC.

We absolutely have a game here and there that could support a crowd bigger than 5000. But I don't see a scenario where we could ever support an arena on campus that is that big.

I'm not griping. Just saying it's apples and oranges in a big way.

It is the alums and students that should be filling your gym. What is SMC doing that that isn't the case? Yes McCarthy is close to downtown and the freeway, but there are people that drive 100 miles, each way, to see the games.

roundup
04-01-2016, 10:22 AM
I think we are basically in agreement sideshow. While the last 9 years have been amazing from a fan standpoint, 25 win seasons against so so competition and NIT appearances are not going to entice people not affiliated with SMC to get on board with the program. The tournament is the heart of college hoops, and IMO it would take sustained appearances and the occasional deep run to truly secure consistent and long term casual support from the community. RB has gotten us close, but we have yet to manage to get over that hump of being a consistent tournament participant and have obviously only had the one sweet sixteen run. I agree that we would always be playing third fiddle to Cal and Stanford to some extent even if this were to materialize.

The Stanford game was a sell out, but it was no where close to a Zags game. The Zags game has turned into a separate monster. It is as much a social event as a basketball game. They literally let hundred of more people into McKeon than it can seat. The intensity of that game is really unique. That grant land article from last year summed it up well. It is more analogous to the old little big game between SMC and Santa Clara in football. Nobody really cared about those quasi D1 teams for most of the year, but that game itself was a huge event that was always packed and kind of transcended the football game itself. I would compare the Stanford game this year to the typical BYU game. It was a big game, sell out, etc, but no where near the madness that is the Zags match up.

Willandi, I'm not sure you have a great grasp on the Bay Area. Forget 100 miles, I live 20 miles from SMC and have a hard time making a 7 o'clock tip off if I leave work early and get on the road by 5. Moraga is way out of the way and traffic is a nightmare.

Attendance wasn't much of an issue during the Mills era after we upset Oregon and the whole though that SMC had a good team was new, but the novelty of being competive has worn off unfortunately and attendance has dipped significantly in the post Delly era. It would take another slam dunk NBA caliber player like Patty or some success in the NCAA tournament to increase fan support and community interest at this point. I don't like it, and neither of those things are particularly likely, but that's just the way it is.

TexasZagFan
04-01-2016, 10:34 AM
roundup:


It is as much a social event as a basketball game.

That's pretty much the norm for every Zag game. Bob Finn, our alumni director, arranged an event at the SMU game that included tickets to one of the suites at Moody. It was sold out, and despite the loss, we had a great time.

These events don't occur in a vacuum, they're the result of a lot of work and coordination.

I grew up in the Bay Area, traffic has always been bad, I feel your pain. North Texas has seen billions of dollars in road construction, and it's finally paying off.

ZagsGoZags
04-01-2016, 10:35 AM
It is the alums and students that should be filling your gym. What is SMC doing that that isn't the case? Yes McCarthy is close to downtown and the freeway, but there are people that drive 100 miles, each way, to see the games.

Some of us from Seattle drive to the Spokane Arena and/or Pullman, when a game is scheduled there. Some people drive more than 100 miles.

TexasZagFan
04-01-2016, 10:50 AM
Some of us from Seattle drive to the Spokane Arena and/or Pullman, when a game is scheduled there. Some people drive more than 100 miles.

If the Zags play within a day's drive from Dallas, I'm normally there. I'll always be a road warrior...I love long road trips, though I don't do the drive to El Paso much anymore (in-laws). Last few years, we've seen the Zags live in Stillwater, Memphis, Wichita, and Houston.

roundup
04-01-2016, 11:14 AM
I hear you, Tex. I would readily agree that Gonzaga has done a far better job capitalizing on their success and turning the games / atmosphere into a fun social community / alumni event that appeals to more than just hoops fans. Unfortunately, SMC is notoriously incompetent and behind the times when it comes to stuff like this. We've had the same half time show, with the same song and silly games, for over ten years. If SMC did a regular pregame social in the (next door to McKeon) Soda Center with free admission and cheap food & wine/beer that was well publicized and open to students and alums I think that would do wonders. They do the occasional pregame there, but it is never properly advertised as there's usually a cover charge with a more formal dinner and no alcohol. I would love for SMC to get more competent from an entertainment / game day experience perspective, but I'm not holding my breath.

Additionally, it takes relevance to get casual and even non fans to attend a game. Unfortunately, people looking for a social scene are much more likely to think "what the hell am I doing here" if they are watching a 3rd place WCC NIT team than a squad that will play in the tournament and has a chance to make a deep run. It's just a different atmosphere that's is necessary to turn regular games into a social event that SMC briefly attained in 2009-2011 but wasn't quite able to sustain. Getting back to the tournament, winning a few games, and making tournament appearances the norm rather than the exception would probably do more to help the situation than anything SMC could do to improve the game day experience.

I have mad respect for the road warriors. I know guys that have never missed a SMC tourny or NIT game. I know a guy who drives from Fresno for every home game and hasn't missed on for years. But as making a weeknight game in Moraga entails either taking a day off work or going over one of the infamous Bay Area bridges during rush hour traffic, you can hardly count on road warriors to increase your bottom line attendance.

I

TexasZagFan
04-01-2016, 11:24 AM
If I ever am able to truly "retire", I can see road trips to the Bay Area and Vegas. I have relatives (and friends) in Reno, and have several spots to stop and see along the way, mostly Route 66 stops, or another visit to the Four Corners area. I prefer not to drive after dark anymore, though.

roundup
04-01-2016, 11:34 AM
If you ever make it to a Zags game in McKeon, which should be bucket list material for all Zags fans, drop me a PM. My personal favorite SMC "road warrior" has been to every WCC gym and its respective college dive bar (eg Jack and Dan's, the Hut, the Provo Applebee's). I've only ticked off a few myself, but I plan to make it to all of them.

Cusefan
04-01-2016, 11:55 AM
Do you guys ever play in the Spokane Veterans Memorial Arena? I think that holds over 12K, twice the capacity of the kennel. I would love to see a Zags - Cuse home and home series in the next two years before JB retires. He and Few are such close friends I'm surprised they haven't made it happen before. Think you guys could fill a 12K seat arena? Cuse fans travel well but Spokane is a LONG way so I'm not sure how many tickets our fan base could be counted on to buy.

vandalzag
04-01-2016, 12:06 PM
Do you guys ever play in the Spokane Veterans Memorial Arena? I think that holds over 12K, twice the capacity of the kennel. I would love to see a Zags - Cuse home and home series in the next two years before JB retires. He and Few are such close friends I'm surprised they haven't made it happen before. Think you guys could fill a 12K seat arena? Cuse fans travel well but Spokane is a LONG way so I'm not sure how many tickets our fan base could be counted on to buy.

Well the hardest part of the would be moving our Arena to the state of New York.

Ekrub
04-01-2016, 12:06 PM
Do you guys ever play in the Spokane Veterans Memorial Arena? I think that holds over 12K, twice the capacity of the kennel. I would love to see a Zags - Cuse home and home series in the next two years before JB retires. He and Few are such close friends I'm surprised they haven't made it happen before. Think you guys could fill a 12K seat arena? Cuse fans travel well but Spokane is a LONG way so I'm not sure how many tickets our fan base could be counted on to buy.

We've played Oklahoma, memphis 2 or 3 times, wsu and maybe OK st. At the arena... I went to a memphis game where they thumped us. Filled up.

GonzagasaurusFlex
04-01-2016, 12:31 PM
Do you guys ever play in the Spokane Veterans Memorial Arena? I think that holds over 12K, twice the capacity of the kennel. I would love to see a Zags - Cuse home and home series in the next two years before JB retires. He and Few are such close friends I'm surprised they haven't made it happen before. Think you guys could fill a 12K seat arena? Cuse fans travel well but Spokane is a LONG way so I'm not sure how many tickets our fan base could be counted on to buy.

I thought the only way Boeheim travels outside CNY for an out of conference game is for an early season tournament. I highly doubt he would go cross country for a single game.

bartruff1
04-01-2016, 01:19 PM
The Battle in Seattle might be a opportunity...

sittingon50
04-01-2016, 03:03 PM
Well the hardest part of the would be moving our Arena to the state of New York.

:roll::roll::roll:

TexasZagFan
04-01-2016, 09:29 PM
The Battle in Seattle might be a opportunity...

Only as the Battle in Syracuse.

CDC84
04-03-2016, 09:08 PM
Article from Blanchette: Other WCC schools must make effort beyond cashing Gonzaga’s checks

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/apr/02/blanchette-other-wcc-schools-must-make-effort-beyo/

DixieZag
04-04-2016, 07:06 AM
Well the hardest part of the would be moving our Arena to the state of New York.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


'Cuse fan:

Yes, we occasionally play in the arena and yes it has about double the capacity and yes I think the Zags could either sell it out or come very close to selling it out every game if they wanted to play there. But, we don't, b/c part of the "thing" about Zag home games is the Kennel and the atmosphere with our student section (Kennel Club) right on top of the floor, letting players and refs know how they feel about particulars. So, one game a year? Yes, possibly, but no more than that.

A home and home would be great, but, as has been noted, we really can't up and move for a year. And, given basketball is a winter sport, even if we did up and move for a year, it likely would be somewhere near Jazz's house and not upstate NY.

sittingon50
04-19-2016, 02:17 PM
Nice article from an SCU perspective:

http://www.thebuckingbronco.blogspot.com/

75Zag
04-19-2016, 02:26 PM
Santa Clara has been a fine host to GU and to the WCC Tournament in prior years. Back in the olden days, Santa Clara hosted several WCC Tournaments in a row. To be honest, the opportunity to fly in my daughter Little '75 (Class of GU 2004) and the Lovely Mrs '75 (Class of GU 1975) to San Francisco to attend the WCC Tournament was much more fun than the current Vegas showcase. I am all about the "What Happens in Vegas Stays in Vegas" ideal lifestyle, except that for better or worse, I am too married and too old to appreciate that nonsense.
Wish SC well this year and sending out a shout to my niece Hannah who will be a Sr. next year at SC.