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hooter73
01-21-2016, 09:08 PM
Meh, played better than normal and got beat by a better than normal team. That's basketball.

23dpg
01-21-2016, 09:10 PM
Respectfully disagree. GU was the better team by far for 33 minutes then fell apart.
I love the Zags and don't even get too upset when they get beat. But to consistently lose when controlling a game in the second half is just soul crushing.

Zagceo
01-21-2016, 09:11 PM
Please Perk don't keep dribbling into black holes and looking for a place to pass.

willandi
01-21-2016, 09:11 PM
Respectfully disagree. GU was the better team by far for 33 minutes then fell apart.
I love the Zags and don't even get too upset when they get beat. But to consistently lose when controlling a game in the second half is just soul crushing.

Disagree here too! When the Zebras swallow their whistle on one end, the outcome is predetermined.

dan71w
01-21-2016, 09:12 PM
Disagree here too! When the Zebras swallow their whistle on one end, the outcome is predetermined.

agree!

Zagceo
01-21-2016, 09:14 PM
Disagree here too! When the Zebras swallow their whistle on one end, the outcome is predetermined.

Refs didn't blow lead....

Outraged
01-21-2016, 09:14 PM
Hmmm we were robbed. Gotta draw fouls

uZiGiZaG
01-21-2016, 09:15 PM
The officials have nothing to do with Few continuing to get tight late in games and the offense not understanding the concept of putting the ball through the hoop


On top of that, they tried giving us the game, and we some how managed to choke that away too.

cggonzaga
01-21-2016, 09:15 PM
I don't blame us losing on the refs but they were awful tonight. All game! 2 very poor calls at the end especially the phantom foul on Sabonis.

MTZag03
01-21-2016, 09:16 PM
I'd rather look at the ridiculous string of empty possessions and turnovers that led to this. The Reffing was unbalanced, but it pretty much always is on the road and especially at the end of games. The turnovers and total lack of offense were much worse than any officiating woes.

Marcus
01-21-2016, 09:17 PM
The turnovers kill me, they just make inexplicable passes. I don't know why they seem to lose focus and throw the bad passes.

I thought they played good for the most part, some poor decision making and depending too much on Domas down the stretch. They still had a great chance to win, make the free throws and Zags win.

Nevada Don
01-21-2016, 09:18 PM
Refs didn't blow lead....

No good time to say this but I am truly sorry. I feel bad because you feel the same as me about your team.

DixieZag
01-21-2016, 09:20 PM
Nope. Loss is on Zags, and coach, very much.

But, anyone doubting there was an agenda see call on Sabonis with 6 seconds left.

There is an absolute written in stone rule that players decide the game.

That was a complete nothing foul with them in the double bonus.

It was intended to win the game - ref couldn't know they'd play a dumb foul and give us a shot.

Zagceo
01-21-2016, 09:21 PM
No good time to say this but I am truly sorry. I feel bad because you feel the same as me about your team.

You could have folded but made some clutch 3's and fought hard and wanted it more in the end.

Congrats Don.....been a while enjoy.

DixieZag
01-21-2016, 09:22 PM
No good time to say this but I am truly sorry. I feel bad because you feel the same as me about your team.

Congrats.

Season isn't over in terms of winning conference.

Unfortunately, our hopes for an large big are.

CDC84
01-21-2016, 09:23 PM
I have said this all along, but Gonzaga is going to have a hard time beating really good teams unless Wiltjer AND Sabonis have good games. KW putting up 6 points is not going to result in a win over SMC. There isn't enough firepower on the rest of the team, and the defense without Karno in the middle is not stout enough to hold an elite offense like that down for 40 minutes.

Sabonis was a no show against BYU, and the same thing happened. These two guys must have good games to have any chance of beating teams with substance. It's the way it is, and the way it will be until the season finishes.

It's really disappointing that in all these defeats, GU wasn't able to hold on to double digit leads in the 2nd half. I really wish the Zags had an athletic wing scorer who could bring double digit scoring every single game. It's like they are one player short. They were even one player short when they had Karnowski.

Still don't feel GU is out of the running for an at large spot, but their margin for error is really shrinking.

Hoopaholic
01-21-2016, 09:24 PM
Please Perk don't keep dribbling into black holes and looking for a place to pass.

actually disagree with this....I want him penetrating but what I am tired of watching is if nothing there he immediately picks up dribble instead of backing out or looping around, it has become a serious patterned issue for the young man that he MUST fix

Ezag
01-21-2016, 09:25 PM
Disagree with everyone-- we really won that game! Just didn't end soon enough

CdAZagFan
01-21-2016, 09:26 PM
The turnovers kill me, they just make inexplicable passes. I don't know why they seem to lose focus and throw the bad passes.

I thought they played good for the most part, some poor decision making and depending too much on Domas down the stretch. They still had a great chance to win, make the free throws and Zags win.

Agree... had one real bad one with Perkins throwing it to no one into the backcourt for a violation.

zagamatic
01-21-2016, 09:26 PM
Am I the only one who noticed that on Wiltjers last "offensive foul" the defender had a foot inside the arc? Should have been a no question defensive foul. And don't get me started on the last "foul" on Sabonis.

willandi
01-21-2016, 09:27 PM
Refs didn't blow lead....

They didn't, but how many moving screens can you give one team before it affects the outcome?

bigblahla
01-21-2016, 09:29 PM
I have said this all along, but Gonzaga is going to have a hard time beating really good teams unless Wiltjer AND Sabonis have good games. KW putting up 6 points is not going to result in a win over SMC. There isn't enough firepower on the rest of the team, and the defense without Karno in the middle is not stout enough to hold an elite offense like that down for 40 minutes.

Sabonis was a no show against BYU, and the same thing happened. These two guys must have good games to have any chance of beating teams with substance. It's the way it is, and the way it will be until the season finishes.

It's really disappointing that in all these defeats, GU wasn't able to hold on to double digit leads in the 2nd half. I really wish the Zags had an athletic wing scorer who could bring double digit scoring every single game. It's like they are one player short. They were even one player short when they had Karnowski.

Still don't feel GU is out of the running for an at large spot, but their margin for error is really shrinking.

I wish they had a real point guard floor general who understands valuing the ball and leadership...

Go!! Zags!!!

nish_mode
01-21-2016, 09:30 PM
its becoming more apparent. Josh Perkins is just a terrible decision maker. We are lucky we have NWG next year.

Zagceo
01-21-2016, 09:31 PM
They didn't, but how many moving screens can you give one team before it affects the outcome?

We dealt with it for what 35 min OK ..........and nobody fouled out.........won't blame 1 or 2 calls for this loss when we should have put em away from the free throw.

Reborn
01-21-2016, 09:36 PM
I thought the Zags played really well accept down the stretch one more time. Gonzaga loses by 3 points. But basically it was a one point loss, and Eric McClelland was at the free throw line shooting a one and one. He missed the front end...GAME OVER. Too bad for Eric because he had a great game. OUtstanding game. I really feel badly for him.

Kyle Dranginis had a great game tonight; so I feel pretty bad for him. I'd say it was his best game as a Zag. Keep it up Kyle. Sabonis was awesome as well. Dranginis finished the game with 13 points and made 3 three poiters. Saboinis scored 17 points, 13 boards and 7 assists. There were some Zags who really played great. Unfortunately, the whole team did not play well, and in a game like this one, everyone needs to play well. Kyle Wiltjer, imo, was a no-show, and this time a no show for the whole game, offense, defense and rebounding. He had two rebounds, and 4 turnovers. I don't know why Few played him. He really hurt the Zags tonight. Big time. Edwards was playing really well. Wiltjer was pathetic on defense. PATHETIC. Almost every time St Mary's scored Wiltjer was the guy guarding the shooter. OH well, and especially when St Mary's made a 3.

The frustrating thing is that for so long the Zags really looked good. They really did. Even though Wiltjer was not doing anything, other guys were. And then, as has been the case this year, we turned the ball over four straight times and they made all four shots and caught us. Zags had 12 turnovers. Too many. St Mary's had 6.

Here is a telling stat. Gonzaga 3-5 from the Foul line. St Mary's was 14-16. Hare to believe that Gonzaga only shoots five free throws...Weird. and two of those misses were the front end of one and one's at the end of game. Sabonis also missed the front end of one. Kyle Wiltjer 0 threes.

Kudos to the Zag defense. Overall they played great, but not so well at the end. St. Mary's got 44 points in the second half.

Go Zags!!!

JPtheBeasta
01-21-2016, 09:37 PM
Agree... had one real bad one with Perkins throwing it to no one into the backcourt for a violation.

How many times did our bigs get their pockets' picked by the help defender? There was a big one at the end that we let happen when we really needed a bucket. This is an adjustment that a senior like Wiltjer should make. The basketball IQ on this team just seems lower than in years past.

surfmonkey89
01-21-2016, 09:39 PM
How many times did our bigs get their pockets' picked by the help defender? There was a big one at the end that we let happen when we really needed a bucket. This is an adjustment that a senior like Wiltjer should make.

Or perhaps the coach. Perish the thought.

23dpg
01-21-2016, 09:40 PM
That is exactly what happened Reborn.

Disheartening constantly losing big leads. I honestly wonder how many points were scored against KW.

Oh well, the sun will come up...tomorrow.

bigblahla
01-21-2016, 09:43 PM
Am I the only one who noticed that on Wiltjers last "offensive foul" the defender had a foot inside the arc? Should have been a no question defensive foul. And don't get me started on the last "foul" on Sabonis.

Saw it and commented in the game thread..

cggonzaga
01-21-2016, 09:43 PM
How many times did our bigs get their pockets' picked by the help defender? There was a big one at the end that we let happen when we really needed a bucket. This is an adjustment that a senior like Wiltjer should make. The basketball IQ on this team just seems lower than in years past.

Good call out on this. Rahon did it like 5 times tonight. Clearly saw something on tape.

Nevada Don
01-21-2016, 09:54 PM
Disagree with everyone-- we really won that game! Just didn't end soon enough
+1

Nevada Don
01-21-2016, 09:55 PM
Good call out on this. Rahon did it like 5 times tonight. Clearly saw something on tape.

Think the Gaels had 8 steals tonight. They never have numerous steals like that.

zagfan1
01-21-2016, 10:01 PM
Tough loss. We really needed that W. These are my thoughts. Still no production from Alberts or Melson. We need Wiltjer to appear at the end of the game. Mcclellan is not good enough to win a game for us. Refer to the missed free throw at the end of the game and his turnover right before they lost the lead. Not disappointed by Sabonis's performance. Just hoping the light bulb goes on for our guards.

hooter73
01-21-2016, 10:02 PM
Yes the calls were suspect, yes Few seems to be incapable of countering an opposing coaches second half adjustments, yes our National player of the year candidate basically runs the other direction when he should be playing defense and is way out of it offensively right now with not practicing with the team, a really hurt foot and being run ragged playing 39.9 minutes per game this whole year so far, yes Zag teams of old would have killed these guys by double digits but SMC is at the top of the nation in several statistical categories for a reason. We just saw that reason. Hey, we Zaged it and dropped a huge lead to lose the game. Guilty. SMC wont make it through league unscathed, no one does.

zagzilla
01-21-2016, 10:03 PM
Worst I have ever seen Wiltjer play. Every game he gets turned over a couple of times by the help defender right after he receives the entry pass. Defense was really soft. He got scored on off the dribble, on pull up 3's and then Pineau abused him down low.

Injured? sick? tired?

GonzaGAW
01-21-2016, 10:22 PM
I hate it when we blame the ref's. if you are a good team you overcome the calls. that having been said that last foul on sabonis was simply not a foul. I hope that ref is shown that call and he thinks long and hard next time he blows his whistle in a tied game with 7 seconds left. the game should have gone into overtime.

I notice the board has been pretty quiet on the coach is a dunce, since the elite eight, but with our gut wrenching losses this year, we are back in form. I'm no coach, I do not know what the problem is but to see the obvious we blow big leads in the second half, been doing so consistently. it does bother me that it is still happening.

gotta hope we win the wcc tourney, I do not see an at large bid in our future.

last I just want to say I love our school, players, coaches, team. we all do, because of our love it hurts the more to see them get beat when they are the better team. yeah yeah, the better team wins, ying yang and all that. I'm in the camp and will not be moved, we were better than st. mary, byu, ucla, and about even with Arizona.

Alum08
01-21-2016, 10:33 PM
I notice the board has been pretty quiet on the coach is a dunce, since the elite eight, but with our gut wrenching losses this year, we are back in form. I'm no coach, I do not know what the problem is but to see the obvious we blow big leads in the second half, been doing so consistently. it does bother me that it is still happening.


It's a demeanor thing. Few's humanist style creates great players and great individuals but it's not a win-at-all-costs sort of approach. If you want a coach like Popovich or Belichick that doesn't take the foot off the throat, you need to be willing to sacrifice some of the qualities that make Few and GU great. And it's not something that a coach can just tell his players, they feed off of his underlying energy in this regard. You could call it the culture even.

ProVeeZag
01-21-2016, 10:54 PM
It's a demeanor thing. Few's humanist style creates great players and great individuals but it's not a win-at-all-costs sort of approach. If you want a coach like Popovich or Belichick that doesn't take the foot off the throat, you need to be willing to sacrifice some of the qualities that make Few and GU great. And it's not something that a coach can just tell his players, they feed off of his underlying energy in this regard. You could call it the culture even.

I think you are on to something here. This might help explain why elite schools in power conferences have not been able to entice Coach Few to make the jump from GU. What you term "Few's humanist style" would not satisfy the demands of the fans and boosters at such schools to "win-at-all-costs". Mark certainly understands that. I don't see him changing his style anytime soon.

sideshow06
01-22-2016, 12:19 AM
I kind of agree with Alum08. We over on the SMC board were jealous of how cool, calm and collected the Zags looked through much of the game and didn't get rattled by the atmosphere. They played like they expected to win and they were clearly pulling it off. But as it started slipping away that same calm seemed to look like a lack of urgency. That's the few vibe. Without a Sacre-type to get jacked up (for better or worse) that kind of energy didn't seem to be there.

In any case, no gloating. Zags are tough and have plenty of opportunities to get back in first. We all know how this league can reach out and bite when you least expect it. Title is still way ip for grabs. Best of luck until we come to Spokane. Let's both beat BYU in Provo at least.

MDABE80
01-22-2016, 12:46 AM
I kind of agree with Alum08. We over on the SMC board were jealous of how cool, calm and collected the Zags looked through much of the game and didn't get rattled by the atmosphere. They played like they expected to win and they were clearly pulling it off. But as it started slipping away that same calm seemed to look like a lack of urgency. That's the few vibe. Without a Sacre-type to get jacked up (for better or worse) that kind of energy didn't seem to be there.

In any case, no gloating. Zags are tough and have plenty of opportunities to get back in first. We all know how this league can reach out and bite when you least expect it. Title is still way ip for grabs. Best of luck until we come to Spokane. Let's both beat BYU in Provo at least.

And this is exactly what'll happen. We beat SMC at home with no let up. Then BYU down there........SMU.....no chanc unless the team plays like the first half of this game. And don't forget the progressive improvemant we're seeing. SOmething is goofy with Wiltjer. Not sure what but he seems distracted.....he's had 2 guy son him before tonight and did well. I was a bit surprised at the suze of aussies down low though. Skilled too. Basics are taught there.

ZagsGoZags
01-22-2016, 02:46 AM
Worst I have ever seen Wiltjer play. Every game he gets turned over a couple of times by the help defender right after he receives the entry pass. Defense was really soft. He got scored on off the dribble, on pull up 3's and then Pineau abused him down low.

Injured? sick? tired?

I worry about the minutes asked of Domas and Kyle W
not only the usual fatigue factor
but these are big men, their bodies don't sprint that well,
and they are obviously getting beat up accumulatively over the games,
because all other teams are doubling on them and focusing on them.
They are getting roughed up and it is starting to show.

Zagger
01-22-2016, 03:42 AM
Ouch! Bummed for the Zags. Hope they rally and whack SMC at home. The way things are going the WCC Tourney in Vegas should be pretty darn exciting this year. Looks like more teams than quite some time have a chance of coming out on top. Glad I'm going to root for the Zags!

GonzagasaurusFlex
01-22-2016, 03:55 AM
Disappointed with the outcome of this game but I'm oddly not nearly as distraught as I was after AZ and UCLA or even BYU losses.

I've maintained that this team will likely need to win WCC tourney to Dance for several weeks now, and I still believe that. It's a liberating admission :-). All I care about now is signs of improvement. Keep getting better so they can be good enough to win WCC tourney.

Tonight the Zags played very composed and shot 59% from the field in a bandbox of a gym (wow, standing room only...someone call the Fire Marshall). Sabonis was a star and showed yet another new dimension to his game...passing (7 assists!). McClellan and Dranginis both had great games, which is what this team has been needing all year...someone other than KW or DS to step up. *I'm really excited about KD and EMac stepping up for this team.

Wiltjer's foot must be more of an issue than we know. He was a complete liability defensively and so slow in making his moves off the dribble (4 TO's). He seemed like 25% of the player we have come to know.

Points of emphasis moving forward:
1) Low post D. SMC's bigs are not superstars, but man they were scoring at will one-v-one against KW and Sabonis. I understand SMC is not a team you can double-team in the post because they have great shooters, but our bigs have to be able to defend better one-v-one.
2) KW and DS recognizing double-team 7 of Zags 12 TO's were by our bigs, virtually all of them from getting stripped by help defender.

Perkins had a few bad TO's and decisions, but I am not worried about him. He is a smart kid learning the ropes of being a D1 floor general and will continue to improve. That's all I care about with this team this year, keep improving. Hopefully KW bounces back into preseason All-American form. If his foot is injured and the cause of his slower than usual lateral quickness, I'd rather he sit for two weeks and Zags lose a few games now for the sake of having him 100% for WCC tourney.

Melson and Alberts are starting to really concern me as they do not seem to be developing. I can see Norvell and NWG eating up ALL their minutes next season if they do not show signs of life this year.

TexasZagFan
01-22-2016, 04:42 AM
How many times did our bigs get their pockets' picked by the help defender? There was a big one at the end that we let happen when we really needed a bucket. This is an adjustment that a senior like Wiltjer should make. The basketball IQ on this team just seems lower than in years past.

Last year our 1-3 slots were Pangos, Bell, and Byron Wesley...3 seniors, all had over 75 games entering the season.

This year, the replacements include Josh, Alberts, Melson, Dranginis, McClellan. I'll withhold my evaluation on Josh, Alberts, and Melson for two more years. It's unfair to compare last year's backcourt to this year's. Kyle & Eric are playing more minutes by far than the past couple of years.

Let's see how they respond from the body punches from last night's game.

Bogozags
01-22-2016, 06:18 AM
The refs didn’t beat us…out lack of scoring in the last seven minutes was the issue…

Not sure Few can be blamed for this loss…once again we just didn’t execute – too many empty possessions…turned the ball over too many times…pass to no where, KW not just pulling up and shooting a jumper…not playing better half court D…

Rahon was the man…he and Collingsworth, what a duo that would be…

Eric had a fantastic game! Best game I’ve seen him play…

One could say Domantas missing the first of two free throws could well be the point we needed and others might say Eric missing was the reason we lost…

KD played an excellent game offence; however, he has been committing silly fouls the last five six games that seem to translate into points for the other team…to catch my point re-watch the game…three silly fouls went for six points…

Where was KW…he was taken out of the game by SMC’s defence…they had a great game plan on him…I think Rahon stole the ball three times from him and twice from DS…Another point is that we must do a better job of dealing with double-teaming (DT)…should be a code word or something to make KW and DS aware that the DT is coming…

A “culture” issue might well be it…don’t know how to overcome it but it seems to have been present for years…something is lacking…can’t put a finger on it but there is something missing!?!?

Another game where Alberts/Melson don’t score…only one shot between them…

Five losses this season…if the games were just 35 minutes long…we would be undefeated and ranked #1…oh, well…another game Saturday against Pacific…maybe KW has another mind blowing game…

GO ZAGS…

TexasZagFan
01-22-2016, 06:28 AM
The refs didn’t beat us…out lack of scoring in the last seven minutes was the issue…

Not sure Few can be blamed for this loss…once again we just didn’t execute – too many empty possessions…turned the ball over too many times…pass to no where, KW not just pulling up and shooting a jumper…not playing better half court D…

Rahon was the man…he and Collingsworth, what a duo that would be…

Eric had a fantastic game! Best game I’ve seen him play…

One could say Domantas missing the first of two free throws could well be the point we needed and others might say Eric missing was the reason we lost…

KD played an excellent game offence; however, he has been committing silly fouls the last five six games that seem to translate into points for the other team…to catch my point re-watch the game…three silly fouls went for six points…

Where was KW…he was taken out of the game by SMC’s defence…they had a great game plan on him…I think Rahon stole the ball three times from him and twice from DS…Another point is that we must do a better job of dealing with double-teaming (DT)…should be a code word or something to make KW and DS aware that the DT is coming…

A “culture” issue might well be it…don’t know how to overcome it but it seems to have been present for years…something is lacking…can’t put a finger on it but there is something missing!?!?

Another game where Alberts/Melson don’t score…only one shot between them…

Five losses this season…if the games were just 35 minutes long…we would be undefeated and ranked #1…oh, well…another game Saturday against Pacific…maybe KW has another mind blowing game…

GO ZAGS…

Would we be undefeated if the 35 second clock was still in effect?

Reborn
01-22-2016, 07:59 AM
Thanks for a GREAT thread. This has been better than reading a newspaper. I appreciate what EVERYONE had to say. Reading this thread has made me feel better. There are things to criticize and I think that overall the tone of this thread is pretty positive, and that's remarkable after a tough loss. And this loss was really tough to handle because it's the second loss in a row we've lost at the foul line. Honestly, I don't see how anyone can blame Mark Few for these losses. Who would EVER think Wiltjer would miss that FT against BYU? And honestly, who thought EMAC would miss his last night? I know I didn't. He had a great game and definitely was prepared to do his part to win that game. And yet, he missed. These are the kind of missed shots that break our hearts.

Gonzaga is obviously a very good team. For some reason they just can not pull out these close games. They would not be in all these games right up to the end if they were not really good. Our losses have been to pretty good teams overall. I still believe we don't have a bad loss. A one point loss at St Mary's is certainly not a bad loss. But the reason these losses hurt is because we should have won all those games. ALL OF THEM. One thing MUST be said, and that is that great teams find a way to win, and for this reason Gonzaga is not a great team, so far this year. They CAN NOT find a way to win, even at home. Three of these close losses are at HOME. If some how someone on this team can steady this ship at the end of games, this could be a great team. And this task falls on Wiltjer and Perkins, imo. Wiltjer because he is a senior, and Perkins because he is our QB and has NOT been a steady guide at the end of games we've lost. I really like how Dranginis stepped up last night. Who knows? By the end of the year it could be him. Kyle Wiltjer missed a wide open three with about 45 seconds left in the game and if he had made that shot, I feel the game was GU's. If you look at that game, St Mary's hit BIG SHOTS REally big shots. Sam with BYU, UCLA and Arizona. Those teams did make big shots at the end of games. YOu just have to make shots at the end of games to win. It's called (in GU terms) closing the deal.

One last thing. Congrats to St Mary's. You guys played a great game, and especially in the last five minutes when it counts (and it really hurts to say that).

Go Zags!!!

Pure
01-22-2016, 08:02 AM
I thought the Zags played really well accept down the stretch one more time. Gonzaga loses by 3 points. But basically it was a one point loss, and Eric McClelland was at the free throw line shooting a one and one. He missed the front end...GAME OVER. Too bad for Eric because he had a great game. OUtstanding game. I really feel badly for him.

Kyle Dranginis had a great game tonight; so I feel pretty bad for him. I'd say it was his best game as a Zag. Keep it up Kyle. Sabonis was awesome as well. Dranginis finished the game with 13 points and made 3 three poiters. Saboinis scored 17 points, 13 boards and 7 assists. There were some Zags who really played great. Unfortunately, the whole team did not play well, and in a game like this one, everyone needs to play well. Kyle Wiltjer, imo, was a no-show, and this time a no show for the whole game, offense, defense and rebounding. He had two rebounds, and 4 turnovers. I don't know why Few played him. He really hurt the Zags tonight. Big time. Edwards was playing really well. Wiltjer was pathetic on defense. PATHETIC. Almost every time St Mary's scored Wiltjer was the guy guarding the shooter. OH well, and especially when St Mary's made a 3.

The frustrating thing is that for so long the Zags really looked good. They really did. Even though Wiltjer was not doing anything, other guys were. And then, as has been the case this year, we turned the ball over four straight times and they made all four shots and caught us. Zags had 12 turnovers. Too many. St Mary's had 6.

Here is a telling stat. Gonzaga 3-5 from the Foul line. St Mary's was 14-16. Hare to believe that Gonzaga only shoots five free throws...Weird. and two of those misses were the front end of one and one's at the end of game. Sabonis also missed the front end of one. Kyle Wiltjer 0 threes.

Kudos to the Zag defense. Overall they played great, but not so well at the end. St. Mary's got 44 points in the second half.

Go Zags!!!


SPOT ON !

Nevada Don
01-22-2016, 09:38 AM
Before you turn the light out:
1) GU played the BEST defense on the Gaels that I've seen this year and I've seen every game. You can question the Gael SOS, etc., but the Gaels are a very good team, a well rounded team and GU pretty much shut them down for 2/3 of the game. I don't know how anyone can shut down the 3's and stifle the Bigs at the same time. No one else has really done that. GU shut down the Top Rated offense (in some categories) in the country.
2) Our best 3 point shooters could hardly get a good shot off early on. When we're really on, Calvin Hermanson is shooting 3's at will along with Evan Fitzner. That didn't happen very much in this game.
3) Our bigs are young but are skilled. They were no where to be seen early on. We rely on a lot of pick and roll for easy buckets but much of that was taken away by GU.
4) Sabonis is truly the man amongst boys. He played a great game IMO.
5) The GU bigs played like 38 minutes, along with eMac. Our guards played 40 but "their guards". I heard comments that some players thought that a couple of players were gassed towards the end. No idea if that was accurate.

I know the result was disheartening to say the least, but there's another game coming up in Spokane to play out.

Zagceo
01-22-2016, 09:46 AM
I know the result was disheartening to say the least, but there's another game coming up in Spokane to play out.

Is that one scheduled for 40 or 35min?

DixieZag
01-22-2016, 09:51 AM
Zags played the best game they have all year for 30 minutes - and that's with KW being a liability.

There is a lot of BB analysis above, all I know is that it is saying something when, given a choice, I would rather be down 3 at the 4:00 mark than up 6, and that is the honest truth.

Few just has to recognize that the losing the lead thing is costing us the season, likely already has regarding an at large bid, and it will cost us the NCAA tourney if it isn't fixed by the WCC championship game (we're still the best team). My humble non-coach suggestion is that from now on, when up by 8 with 8 minutes left, he scream at his team that his goal is to win by 16. Pretend the game is tied and he wants to win by 10. I can't think it would hurt. We're trued everything else.

john montana
01-22-2016, 10:43 AM
They didn't, but how many moving screens can you give one team before it affects the outcome?

+1000. It would be really fun to be a guard when you have those type of screens set for you. Too bad they aren't legal.

RenoZag
01-22-2016, 11:44 AM
Jim Meehan's "Day After" post is up on the S-R Web site:

http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/sportslink/2016/jan/22/day-after-saint-marys/


GU’s offense in the final 6:45 consisted of McClellan's third 3-pointer of the game, a Domantas Sabonis free throw, Dranginis’ driving layup to tie it at 67 with 21.4 ticks left, some missed shots and five crushing turnovers.

“We just had a couple breakdowns defensively, and they hit some big shots and capitalized,” coach Mark Few said. “And we just had that spurt of turnovers, and that just killed us.”

Said SMC coach Randy Bennett: “That was a very gritty win. We beat a good team. It’s hard to beat them when they play well.”

--Kyle Wiltjer struggled at both ends of the floor. He had a season-low six points and matched his season low with just two rebounds. He took only seven shots. He finished with three assists and four turnovers.

“Obviously he and Sabonis are a big part of our scout,” Bennett said. “We did a pretty good job there and he probably didn’t have his best night but I’d like to think some of it was how we played him. We tried to do the same thing with Sabonis and it didn’t exactly work with him. That’s a heck of a one-two punch.”

Meehan's Gamer can be found here: http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/jan/21/gaels-storm-back-to-knock-down-gonzaga-70-67/


Five losses by 15 total points. The latest was the most excruciating yet as Saint Mary’s rallied from a 10-point deficit in the final 6:50 to edge Gonzaga 70-67, much to the delight of the majority of a standing-room-only crowd that swelled McKeon Pavilion beyond it 3,500-seat capacity.

“All of them (have been similar),” head coach Mark Few said. “It’s a shame. We have to fix it. We have to be able to make those plays, and we have in some of our other wins. But you can’t have three or four turnovers in maybe the last 10 possessions, that’s inexcusable.”

Reborn
01-22-2016, 01:02 PM
I just finished re-watching the game. First, the SM's defender was outside the box; so it was A GOOD call by the official.
Gonzaga had only shot 2 foul shots for the entire game with one minute left if the game. In the last minute the Zags were 1-3. With one and a half minutes to play in the game St Mary's had committed just 4 fouls the entire second half. In watching the game again it was so clear that St Mary's fouled the Zags multiple times. And it was ever so clear that there was no foul on Rahon's shot with 6 seconds to go in the game. I think Gonzaga is the better team, and hopefully as they go forward they will prove it. Sabonis was incredible. Wow! When he is on his game he is truly great, and something to watch. And I hope Kyle Dranginis remembers this game and continues to play like this EVERY GAME. The Zags looked good to me because they actually had two guards who were scoring, and this is exactly what the Zags need.

One last point. Evan Fitzner is a really good player. I have watched him play four times and he has been good every time I saw them play. I was wondering how he would do against Wiltjer. Fitzner had 20 pts and 5 boards, and shot 7-9 from the floor with one 3, and hit 5-6 from the foul line. Oh yeah! He is a Freshman. Wiltjer 4 pts, 2 boards, did not attempt a free throw shot, and 4 turnovers. We know he won that battle. It's been a long time since St. Mary's has had a good power forward or 4. They have one now and he'll be around for awhile.

Go Zags!

Reborn
01-22-2016, 01:21 PM
BYU @ Pepperdine tomorrow at 5. Pepperdine is just one game behind BYU now. Pepperdine, as we thought, is now showing that they are the team we thought they'd be. A week later, on the 30th, Pepperdine travels to BYU.

Zagceo
01-22-2016, 01:42 PM
I just finished re-watching the game. First, the SM's defender was outside the box; so it was A GOOD call by the official.
Gonzaga had only shot 2 foul shots for the entire game with one minute left if the game. In the last minute the Zags were 1-3. With one and a half minutes to play in the game St Mary's had committed just 4 fouls the entire second half. In watching the game again it was so clear that St Mary's fouled the Zags multiple times. And it was ever so clear that there was no foul on Rahon's shot with 6 seconds to go in the game. I think Gonzaga is the better team, and hopefully as they go forward they will prove it. Sabonis was incredible. Wow! When he is on his game he is truly great, and something to watch. And I hope Kyle Dranginis remembers this game and continues to play like this EVERY GAME. The Zags looked good to me because they actually had two guards who were scoring, and this is exactly what the Zags need.

One last point. Evan Fitzner is a really good player. I have watched him play four times and he has been good every time I saw them play. I was wondering how he would do against Wiltjer. Fitzner had 20 pts and 5 boards, and shot 7-9 from the floor with one 3, and hit 5-6 from the foul line. Oh yeah! He is a Freshman. Wiltjer 4 pts, 2 boards, did not attempt a free throw shot, and 4 turnovers. We know he won that battle. It's been a long time since St. Mary's has had a good power forward or 4. They have one now and he'll be around for awhile.

Go Zags!

Sounds spot on to me.

so maybe jump start #draftFITZNER

roundup
01-22-2016, 01:48 PM
It's been a long time since St. Mary's has had a good power forward or 4. They have one now and he'll be around for awhile.

Go Zags!

Last dynamic PF was Simpson, who graduated in 2009. Last dynamic stretch four was Kickert, who graduated in 2006. People in Moraga think Fitzner has the potential to be better than Kickert, which is saying a lot. Strangely, Fitzner has disappeared in a few games this season and spends a considerable amount of time in RB's doghouse despite his obvious talent. Still a work in progress, but loads of potential.

Kiddwell
01-22-2016, 01:53 PM
BYU @ Pepperdine tomorrow at 5. Pepperdine is just one game behind BYU now. Pepperdine, as we thought, is now showing that they are the team we thought they'd be. A week later, on the 30th, Pepperdine travels to BYU.

Pepperdine could do us One Giant Favor by knocking off BYU. We're gonna have our hands full when we go to Provo, and this fan's a bit nervous about that trip. So Pepperdine taking BYU out on Saturday would be gihugik. :bishop_smiley:


:]

seacatfan
01-22-2016, 04:44 PM
Everybody is missing the big picture. It was those damn black uniforms. That's why the Zags lost.

Zagceo
01-22-2016, 05:02 PM
Everybody is missing the big picture. It was those damn black uniforms. That's why the Zags lost.

Worked fine for the first 37:15 of the game.

Bogozags
01-22-2016, 06:09 PM
Would we be undefeated if the 35 second clock was still in effect?

That's a good question, I think we might be...forcing their defence to play longer might well have limited their opportunities...What do you think?

VinnyZag
01-22-2016, 06:43 PM
I have three points to make:

1) Josh Perkins had ONE turnover in this game. (Box score here (http://www.gozags.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2015-2016/gonmbb20.html).) It was the pass to McClellan he airmailed with ~2 minutes left in the game. That's it. So, this isn't the best game to make the supposed point about him "making bad decisions."

2) I suspect that Wiltjer's injury is worse than we know, and that had something to do with his underperformance on Thursday. He just didn't look like himself offensively, and on defense he frankly looked even worse than usual. Remember, he's not practicing at all.

3) The bad part of the Wiltjer charge call wasn't that the defender was inside the arc, it was that he was NOT in position when Wiltj jumped. Still, that was a bang-bang play and you can totally see them getting that wrong. The foul on Sabonis with 6 second left, and the Dranginis foul on the moving screen ... those were ridiculous.

ValencyLovesZagsInAtlanta
01-23-2016, 06:06 AM
Zags played the best game they have all year for 30 minutes - and that's with KW being a liability.

There is a lot of BB analysis above, all I know is that it is saying something when, given a choice, I would rather be down 3 at the 4:00 mark than up 6, and that is the honest truth.

Few just has to recognize that the losing the lead thing is costing us the season, likely already has regarding an at large bid, and it will cost us the NCAA tourney if it isn't fixed by the WCC championship game (we're still the best team). My humble non-coach suggestion is that from now on, when up by 8 with 8 minutes left, he scream at his team that his goal is to win by 16. Pretend the game is tied and he wants to win by 10. I can't think it would hurt. We're trued everything else.

Some people will try and say Kyle should have left after his Junior year because his draft stock would more or less stay the same. What I learned when he decided to stay is there is more to life than money that was on the table to earn. No matter your age spending 1 more year on campus at Gonzaga is priceless. I am sure Kyle is having the time of his life and tons of fun! Last year in college he should! It was a great decision!!!!!!!!

bartruff1
01-23-2016, 06:22 AM
No one is promised tomorrow, a player that has a opportunity to reach financial security should take it. It is never a mistake to take money off the table.....rather than the hope of gaining more and risking a injury. A bird in the hand....against a unknown future.

bigblahla
01-23-2016, 06:43 AM
I would trade Perkins for Naar in a heartbeat or take Rahon over any guard on our TEAM and the ZAGs would be a better TEAM...Naar amazes me...incredibly crafty he will be something by the time he is a senior...Rahon has the heart and mentality of a ZAG...from watching this years Zags we do not have a guard that can carry their jock straps when it comes to understanding the game...SMC will be formidable for the next 3-4 years...give Gollum his do the man can coach and recruit and does it well for his situation....I really don't like SMC..

Go!! Zags!!!

jazzdelmar
01-23-2016, 06:46 AM
I would trade Perkins for Naar in a heartbeat or take Rahon over any guard on our TEAM and the ZAGs would be a better TEAM...Naar amazes me...incredibly crafty he will be something by the time he is a senior...Rahon has the heart and mentality of a ZAG...from watching this years Zags we do not have a guard that can carry there jock straps when it comes to understanding the game...SMC will be formidable for the next 3-4 years...give Gollum his do the man can coach and recruit and does it well for his situation....I really don't like SMC..

Go!! Zags!!!

Actually Rahon is not yet at the level he was at BC, where he was spectacular. He will get better. That backcourt is super yes. As for Gollum, he is a friend and I am happy for him. No surprise, he lives to beat the Zags....obsessed with it......good on him.

jazzdelmar
01-23-2016, 06:56 AM
I would trade Perkins for Naar in a heartbeat or take Rahon over any guard on our TEAM and the ZAGs would be a better TEAM...Naar amazes me...incredibly crafty he will be something by the time he is a senior...Rahon has the heart and mentality of a ZAG..Go!! Zags!!!

Its stunning to me how poorly the 3 guards have played -- josh, melson and alberts. just weak on team skills. mac is ok but a bit of a headcase. the Marys guards are light years better and we aren't talking BCS/NBA level....for those familiar w NYC hs hoops (talking to you, Val)...Josh is a PSAL point guard trying to run a CHSAA team.

GonzagasaurusFlex
01-23-2016, 07:07 AM
I would trade Perkins for Naar in a heartbeat or take Rahon over any guard on our TEAM and the ZAGs would be a better TEAM...Naar amazes me...incredibly crafty he will be something by the time he is a senior...Rahon has the heart and mentality of a ZAG...from watching this years Zags we do not have a guard that can carry their jock straps when it comes to understanding the game...SMC will be formidable for the next 3-4 years...give Gollum his do the man can coach and recruit and does it well for his situation....I really don't like SMC..

Go!! Zags!!!

I'm all for calling it like you see it and pointing out the flaws in your favorite team/players etc., but saying you'd trade Perkins for an SMC guard is over the top. How can you call yourself a Zags fan and simultaneously state you'd rather trade Perkins for a Mary?

Perkins is fine and is going to continue improving....when he does and the Zags soar to new heights before JP's career is over, I for one hope you have the class not to revel in his success then.

willandi
01-23-2016, 07:16 AM
Some people will try and say Kyle should have left after his Junior year because his draft stock would more or less stay the same. What I learned when he decided to stay is there is more to life than money that was on the table to earn. No matter your age spending 1 more year on campus at Gonzaga is priceless. I am sure Kyle is having the time of his life and tons of fun! Last year in college he should! It was a great decision!!!!!!!!

Welcome back!

Coach Crazy
01-23-2016, 07:27 AM
I would trade Perkins for Naar in a heartbeat or take Rahon over any guard on our TEAM and the ZAGs would be a better TEAM...Naar amazes me...incredibly crafty he will be something by the time he is a senior...Rahon has the heart and mentality of a ZAG...from watching this years Zags we do not have a guard that can carry their jock straps when it comes to understanding the game...SMC will be formidable for the next 3-4 years...give Gollum his do the man can coach and recruit and does it well for his situation....I really don't like SMC..

Go!! Zags!!!

It's unfortunate that you didn't look at the stats and realize that Josh Perkins is farther along in his freshman campaign than Emmett Naar was. Offensively, we're actually better with Josh (during WCC play). And Josh has actually played some intense OOC. So, I am assuming you'll want to be a little more informed the next time you make a statement like that?

Josh is currently on pace to be a better PG than Emmett.

Coach Crazy
01-23-2016, 07:29 AM
I'm all for calling it like you see it and pointing out the flaws in your favorite team/players etc., but saying you'd trade Perkins for an SMC guard is over the top. How can you call yourself a Zags fan and simultaneously state you'd rather trade Perkins for a Mary?

Perkins is fine and is going to continue improving....when he does and the Zags soar to new heights before JP's career is over, I for one hope you have the class not to revel in his success then.

I don't think it is over the top. I think it is a sign of someone's understanding, though. It was a comment that isn't based in any fact or useful perspective, but I have come to expect that from a good deal of the posters here.

roundup
01-23-2016, 08:05 AM
It's unfortunate that you didn't look at the stats and realize that Josh Perkins is farther along in his freshman campaign than Emmett Naar was. Offensively, we're actually better with Josh (during WCC play). And Josh has actually played some intense OOC. So, I am assuming you'll want to be a little more informed the next time you make a statement like that?

Josh is currently on pace to be a better PG than Emmett.


Actually, as a freshman Naar had a slightly better assist to turnover ratio than Perkins does, shot 80% from the FT line to Perkins 63%, and shot 45% from 3 compared to Perkins 41%. Not to mention, he was playing behind former Pac 12 starter Aaron Bright and All WCC guard Kerry Carter, struggled with an ankle injury throughout the season, and was consistently the 4th or 5th option on offense.

So I wouldn't say Perkins is farther along than Emmett was as a freshman, although the stats are virtually a wash with a slight edge towards Naar. Unless you are talking advanced stats / metrics or simply ppg. And Emmett is significantly improved as a sophomore. Cue standard SOS rant.

Most guys with real coaching chops do not spend inordinate amounts of time on the internet trying to convince people that they know basketball.

bigblahla
01-23-2016, 08:07 AM
It's unfortunate that you didn't look at the stats and realize that Josh Perkins is farther along in his freshman campaign than Emmett Naar was. Offensively, we're actually better with Josh (during WCC play). And Josh has actually played some intense OOC. So, I am assuming you'll want to be a little more informed the next time you make a statement like that?

Josh is currently on pace to be a better PG than Emmett.

Your right coach....but you see the only stat I concern myself with is W-L....my eyes saw Naar make our defense look silly at times...I saw moves that I haven't seen since Captain Matt was here...on the other hand at times Perkins looked foolish even if he didn't turn the ball over...so stats may support Perkins but my eyes tell me at this time Naar is a better TEAM player and it is a TEAM game...hence my opinion and that is all it is.... my opinion....I'll stand by what I saw...you keep the stats...

Go!! Zags!!!

Nevada Don
01-23-2016, 09:05 AM
I would trade Perkins for Naar in a heartbeat or take Rahon over any guard on our TEAM and the ZAGs would be a better TEAM...Naar amazes me...incredibly crafty he will be something by the time he is a senior...Rahon has the heart and mentality of a ZAG...from watching this years Zags we do not have a guard that can carry their jock straps when it comes to understanding the game...SMC will be formidable for the next 3-4 years...give Gollum his do the man can coach and recruit and does it well for his situation....I really don't like SMC..

Go!! Zags!!!

It was such a great post until that last line. :)
Naar and Rahon are really good players and floor generals. We are fortunate to have an abundance of guards and next year RB will have a rotation of 10 or 10+ players if he wants it.

Coach Crazy
01-23-2016, 09:12 AM
but you see the only stat I concern myself with is W-L

So, you only concern yourself with a stat that is produced by the stats you choose to ignore? Huh.


my eyes saw Naar make our defense look silly at times...I saw moves that I haven't seen since Captain Matt was here...on the other hand at times Perkins looked foolish even if he didn't turn the ball over

Did your eyes watch the first half? Unless someone knows the exact number of possessions for SMC, I am just cutting the pace in half. That makes for 30 possessions and 26 points. Did your eyes see that? Where was Mr. Naar and his "TEAM", then? For whatever reason (not gonna go into that on this post) the Zags let up. Emmett Naar and his "TEAM" was not what you are describing, until this team lost steam. Teams essentially have to not play good or great (more often than not) defense for them to score as high as they do. Hence the reason why they play such a garbage schedule.

And yes, Josh does some things that I am not super happy with. Things that you shouldn't do as a PG (especially in an offense such as Few's). But again, you're comparing players in different years, and throwing out everything he does do because of what "you see". Which makes no sense. Please see my first point. You don't really care about any stats, just about being right...even if you are sadly wrong.

Coach Crazy
01-23-2016, 09:43 AM
Actually, as a freshman Naar had a slightly better assist to turnover ratio than Perkins does, shot 80% from the FT line to Perkins 63%, and shot 45% from 3 compared to Perkins 41%. Not to mention, he was playing behind former Pac 12 starter Aaron Bright and All WCC guard Kerry Carter, struggled with an ankle injury throughout the season, and was consistently the 4th or 5th option on offense.

So you're cherry picking? You gonna make jam, or something, when you are done? If so, can I give you my address and you can mail me some. It appears that you'll have a lot.

Josh's ORtg, DRtg, BPM, and WS/40 were all higher, and his strength of schedule this year is still stronger than that of SMC's last year. Also, regardless of who he was playing behind, and what offensive option he was, the minutes played and USG% don't reconcile with the point you are trying to make. Josh plays 1.9 more minutes a game, Josh's USG% is only 3.7% higher, and even now he as the 3rd option, he would have been fourth with Shem in the mix. And I actually think that would have helped him. Also, Emmett Naar had a TOV% of 27.0. Yikes.


Most guys with real coaching chops do not spend inordinate amounts of time on the internet trying to convince people that they know basketball.

Incorrect. There are very personal reasons why I am not coaching. I decided to step away from the coaching path. In fact, there are a lot of guys who step away for whatever reason. Even Dabo Swinney did. It happens. I remember being in Barry Lamb's office (back before I made the switch to pursuing coaching basketball) at BYU, and he said to me essentially "If you can live without coaching, do. if you can't, don't." It seems to me that you are insecure about your own perspective, and are deflecting to gain some sort of high ground. Whatever floats your boat.

I'm not here to convince people I know basketball. I'm here to talk basketball. I can't be responsible for what others don't know, or aren't willing to learn.

jazzdelmar
01-23-2016, 09:46 AM
Coach, all due respect, you are a little crazy.

roundup
01-23-2016, 09:49 AM
So, you only concern yourself with a stat that is produced by the stats you choose to ignore? Huh.



Did your eyes watch the first half? Unless someone knows the exact number of possessions for SMC, I am just cutting the pace in half. That makes for 30 possessions and 26 points. Did your eyes see that? Where was Mr. Naar and his "TEAM", then? For whatever reason (not gonna go into that on this post) the Zags let up. Emmett Naar and his "TEAM" was not what you are describing, until this team lost steam. Teams essentially have to not play good or great (more often than not) defense for them to score as high as they do. Hence the reason why they play such a garbage schedule.

And yes, Josh does some things that I am not super happy with. Things that you shouldn't do as a PG (especially in an offense such as Few's). But again, you're comparing players in different years, and throwing out everything he does do because of what "you see". Which makes no sense. Please see my first point. You don't really care about any stats, just about being right...even if you are sadly wrong.

So, let me make sure I get this. Stats reveal the truth about a team. SMC's stats are the result of a weak OOC schedule. Gonzaga's stats are derived from a stronger OOC schedule. Therefore, Gonzaga is clearly the better team. When the teams played, Gonzaga, statistically speaking of course, scored fewer points that Saint Mary's did. But that somewhat trivial stat is negated because the Zags "let up." I assume the statistical fact that SMC scored more points than BYU in Moraga, whereas Gonzaga scored fewer points than BYU in Spokane, is also negated by "letting up."

Similarly, Perkins is obviously destined to become a better pg than Naar because he is kind of a freshman and his stats this year are close to Naar's stats last year. Foregone conclusion.

So, essentially, coach crazy looks at the stats and determines which ones are applicable. Through this scientific process, he determines which teams and players are superior to others. Logic at it's finest.

bartruff1
01-23-2016, 09:51 AM
Well, you have certainly impressed me...largely because I don't know WTF you are talking about...

However I do know that St Mary's is currently leading the WCC...even if they shouldn't....that is, according to some equations...

DixieZag
01-23-2016, 09:59 AM
Coach, all due respect, you are a little crazy.

Just to slant off the topic a bit, of course asking a horse to change its colors (or whatever the saying is, Zebra - stripes) generally does nothing, I wouldn't mind seeing our own coach go a little crazy at this point. Given a choice, I much prefer the deliberate and cerebral approach. But, given the pattern of losing the leads, given it was happening again, I find the 4:00 mark of the last game to have been the exact perfect time to go jacket flinging, police escorting, hoarse-yelling, and player-only huddling, insane at the officials and maybe jack the team and the league up a bit.

Something has to change, why not that?

Just my 2 cents, likely worth less.

Coach Crazy
01-23-2016, 10:08 AM
So, let me make sure I get this. Stats reveal the truth about a team. SMC's stats are the result of a weak OOC schedule. Gonzaga's stats are derived from a stronger OOC schedule. Therefore, Gonzaga is clearly the better team. When the teams played, Gonzaga, statistically speaking of course, scored fewer points that Saint Mary's did. But that somewhat trivial stat is negated because the Zags "let up." I assume the statistical fact that SMC scored more points than BYU in Moraga, whereas Gonzaga scored fewer points than BYU in Spokane, is also negated by "letting up."

Similarly, Perkins is obviously destined to become a better pg than Naar because he is kind of a freshman and his stats this year are close to Naar's stats last year. Foregone conclusion.

So, essentially, coach crazy looks at the stats and determines which ones are applicable. Through this scientific process, he determines which teams and players are superior to others. Logic at it's finest.

Actually, I am about making sure you can reconcile what you see to what is actually being done. And as I have stated before, you can't go all on stats, or you end up with paper tigers. Mike Hart is actually used as an example, on Sports Reference (I believe?), of how advanced stats have to be understood or you can fall into traps of certain exceptions. You seemed to be all for statistical analysis, until you didn't like what I said.

Based on what I see, and based on their production, Josh will end his career as a better PG and have more success in post season affairs than that of Mr. Naar.

You'd know some of my stances, if you spent more time here. You're trying to deflect, again.

Coach Crazy
01-23-2016, 10:14 AM
Just to slant off the topic a bit, of course asking a horse to change its colors (or whatever the saying is, Zebra - stripes) generally does nothing, I wouldn't mind seeing our own coach go a little crazy at this point. Given a choice, I much prefer the deliberate and cerebral approach. But, given the pattern of losing the leads, given it was happening again, I find the 4:00 mark of the last game to have been the exact perfect time to go jacket flinging, police escorting, hoarse-yelling, and player-only huddling, insane at the officials and maybe jack the team and the league up a bit.

Something has to change, why not that?

Just my 2 cents, likely worth less.

I am a more passionate, intense coach (hence my name), and I agree that it would be nice to see a little more fire sometimes, but if it's not his style,it just wouldn't work. One of my roommates, when I lived in Provo, played with Dustin Villepigue and Tyler Amaya. He said they called him Skeletor. So, it sounds like he is very intense during practive (or was at one point), and has a slightly different approach during the game.

I also talked to Richie Frahm when I was interning with the Flash, and he told me that they didn't really listen to Mark his first year (or something to that effect). Regardless of whether or not Mark was handed a program at a certain point (though, I get that he was an assistant before that), he has had to carve out his own legacy. While I would rather play for a Bobby Knight-type, I respect the heck out of what he has done, and where this is going. People, unfortunately, don't see the gauntlet that even GU has to go through to keep things going.

Would it be great to see a little Bobby Knight in him? Sure.

jazzdelmar
01-23-2016, 10:18 AM
Actually, I am about making sure you can reconcile what you see to what is actually being done. And as I have stated before, you can't go all on stats, or you end up with paper tigers. Mike Hart is actually used as an example, on Sports Reference (I believe?), of how advanced stats have to be understood or you can fall into traps of certain exceptions. You seemed to be all for statistical analysis, until you didn't like what I said.

Based on what I see, and based on their production, Josh will end his career as a better PG and have more success in post season affairs than that of Mr. Naar.

You'd know some of my stances, if you spent more time here. You're trying to deflect, again.

But CC, won't Josh be in the NBA in a year or two? Poor Naar will have to stay for all four.

ProjectMKUltra5
01-23-2016, 10:22 AM
Coach Crazy has such a great grasp on advanced statistics and how they intertwine with one another. I'm the exact opposite, I prefer the eye test and a subjective opinion from somebody who knows their s***, but I love how he can link stats up into something meaningful.

DixieZag
01-23-2016, 10:25 AM
I am a more passionate, intense coach (hence my name), and I agree that it would be nice to see a little more fire sometimes, but if it's not his style,it just wouldn't work. One of my roommates, when I lived in Provo, played with Dustin Villepigue and Tyler Amaya. He said they called him Skeletor. So, it sounds like he is very intense during practive (or was at one point), and has a slightly different approach during the game.

I also talked to Richie Frahm when I was interning with the Flash, and he told me that they didn't really listen to Mark his first year (or something to that effect). Regardless of whether or not Mark was handed a program at a certain point (though, I get that he was an assistant before that), he has had to carve out his own legacy. While I would rather play for a Bobby Knight-type, I respect the heck out of what he has done, and where this is going. People, unfortunately, don't see the gauntlet that even GU has to go through to keep things going.

Would it be great to see a little Bobby Knight in him? Sure.

He is cerebral enough to almost plan it out beforehand. His team gets terrified with 10 pt leads with 6:00 to play and are now in a pattern that can last an entire season.

If nothing else, distract them from the fact they are giving up another lead and headed to a loss. Perhaps when they are still up by 5, just go uncharacteristically something, just to break up the pattern, give them a "Holy shtip! Did you just see what coach did?! Whoa. [slight smile] Let's battle."

Coach Crazy
01-23-2016, 10:30 AM
But CC, won't Josh be in the NBA in a year or two? Poor Naar will have to stay for all four.

No, it really frustrates me that Josh got injured the way he did. That really set him back. If he had had the opportunity to play alongside Gary and KP, it would have made a ton of difference this year. He could have been a two or three year player, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised if he stays 4.

Josh is taking on a lot for a freshman, in a program that expects a lot by virtue of its existence. He's learning at a pace that most PG's probably wouldn't. Not to mention the fact that his roles were dramatically different. Naar is a good player, but I would still take Josh. High ceiling, has proven against more, and has had to come back from something more intense.

I have seen things that I cannot put into the stat, but that align with his statistical production. Naturally, he failed to produce points when we needed them against SMC. I think sometimes we get too wrapped up in a "1-minute" chart, when we ought to be following a much broader trend (sorry for the trading lingo, best way that I could explain it).

jazzdelmar
01-23-2016, 10:36 AM
No, it really frustrates me that Josh got injured the way he did. That really set him back. If he had had the opportunity to play alongside Gary and KP, it would have made a ton of difference this year. He could have been a two or three year player, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised if he stays 4.

Josh is taking on a lot for a freshman, in a program that expects a lot by virtue of its existence. He's learning at a pace that most PG's probably wouldn't. Not to mention the fact that his roles were dramatically different. Naar is a good player, but I would still take Josh. High ceiling, has proven against more, and has had to come back from something more intense.

I have seen things that I cannot put into the stat, but that align with his statistical production. Naturally, he failed to produce points when we needed them against SMC. I think sometimes we get too wrapped up in a "1-minute" chart, when we ought to be following a much broader trend (sorry for the trading lingo, best way that I could explain it).

Not sure if you have any east coast/NYC experience, but if u do you will know what I mean when I say that Josh is a PSAL point guard trying to run a CHSAA team. Btw, my tongue was firmly in cheek when I projected Josh as an NBAer.

Coach Crazy
01-23-2016, 10:42 AM
He is cerebral enough to almost plan it out beforehand. His team gets terrified with 10 pt leads with 6:00 to play and are now in a pattern that can last an entire season.

If nothing else, distract them from the fact they are giving up another lead and headed to a loss. Perhaps when they are still up by 5, just go uncharacteristically something, just to break up the pattern, give them a "Holy shtip! Did you just see what coach did?! Whoa. [slight smile] Let's battle."

I will very rarely criticize Coach Few, but I would like to know why they went into kind of "prevent" style of play (for lack of a better phrase). It just doesn't work, in football or basketball. Especially when you punch a team in the mouth, like we did to St. Mary's. You just can't let up.

But yes, I would a moment where he brings things to a nuclear level and gets people fired up.

seacatfan
01-23-2016, 11:28 AM
He said they called him Skeletor. So, it sounds like he is very intense during practive (or was at one point), and has a slightly different approach during the game.


I've heard UW fans refer to Few as Skeletor in a purely mocking way. I think it's based purely on his physical appearance. He is extremely lean, especially in his face.

seacatfan
01-23-2016, 11:29 AM
Not sure if you have any east coast/NYC experience, but if u do you will know what I mean when I say that Josh is a PSAL point guard trying to run a CHSAA team. Btw, my tongue was firmly in cheek when I projected Josh as an NBAer.

Jazz I've seen that in 2 of your posts today. Can you give us a little more context for those of us that aren't familiar w/ NYC hoops?

jazzdelmar
01-23-2016, 11:30 AM
I've heard UW fans refer to Few as Skeletor in a purely mocking way. I think it's based purely on his physical appearance. He is extremely lean, especially in his face.

I think he looks just fine. Very fit. It's the golf clap thing that gets me going.

willandi
01-23-2016, 11:34 AM
So you're cherry picking? You gonna make jam, or something, when you are done? If so, can I give you my address and you can mail me some. It appears that you'll have a lot.

Josh's ORtg, DRtg, BPM, and WS/40 were all higher, and his strength of schedule this year is still stronger than that of SMC's last year. Also, regardless of who he was playing behind, and what offensive option he was, the minutes played and USG% don't reconcile with the point you are trying to make. Josh plays 1.9 more minutes a game, Josh's USG% is only 3.7% higher, and even now he as the 3rd option, he would have been fourth with Shem in the mix. And I actually think that would have helped him. Also, Emmett Naar had a TOV% of 27.0. Yikes.



Incorrect. There are very personal reasons why I am not coaching. I decided to step away from the coaching path. In fact, there are a lot of guys who step away for whatever reason. Even Dabo Swinney did. It happens. I remember being in Barry Lamb's office (back before I made the switch to pursuing coaching basketball) at BYU, and he said to me essentially "If you can live without coaching, do. if you can't, don't." It seems to me that you are insecure about your own perspective, and are deflecting to gain some sort of high ground. Whatever floats your boat.

I'm not here to convince people I know basketball. I'm here to talk basketball. I can't be responsible for what others don't know, or aren't willing to learn.

You won't be able to convince him to even look. Save your breath...and fingers, he already knows it all, or knows when to ignore 95% of what you say to pick at the5% that HE thinks has merit.

jazzdelmar
01-23-2016, 11:36 AM
Jazz I've seen that in 2 of your posts today. Can you give us a little more context for those of us that aren't familiar w/ NYC hoops?

Explanation sent. Eyes only.

seacatfan
01-23-2016, 11:42 AM
Explanation sent. Eyes only.

Cool, thanks.

bigblahla
01-23-2016, 11:46 AM
So, you only concern yourself with a stat that is produced by the stats you choose to ignore? Huh.



Did your eyes watch the first half? Unless someone knows the exact number of possessions for SMC, I am just cutting the pace in half. That makes for 30 possessions and 26 points. Did your eyes see that? Where was Mr. Naar and his "TEAM", then? For whatever reason (not gonna go into that on this post) the Zags let up. Emmett Naar and his "TEAM" was not what you are describing, until this team lost steam. Teams essentially have to not play good or great (more often than not) defense for them to score as high as they do. Hence the reason why they play such a garbage schedule.

And yes, Josh does some things that I am not super happy with. Things that you shouldn't do as a PG (especially in an offense such as Few's). But again, you're comparing players in different years, and throwing out everything he does do because of what "you see". Which makes no sense. Please see my first point. You don't really care about any stats, just about being right...even if you are sadly wrong.


Right or wrong is your game and what's sad is your condescending attitude thinking I need your help understanding a game I've loved for over 50 years...give it a break champ...

Go!! Zags!!!

Ezag
01-23-2016, 12:29 PM
Coach Crazy has such a great grasp on advanced statistics and how they intertwine with one another. I'm the exact opposite, I prefer the eye test and a subjective opinion from somebody who knows their s***, but I love how he can link stats up into something meaningful.

The eye test and "potential upside" goes a long way in the NBA draft

roundup
01-23-2016, 02:31 PM
.

Based on what I see, and based on their production, Josh will end his career as a better PG and have more success in post season affairs than that of Mr. Naar.



It is cherry picking to note that Naar was not a true starting PG as a freshman as Perkins is, but it is not cherry picking to compare Naar's stats from last year with Perkin's stats from this year? So some context can be considered, like whether a player is freshman or sophomore, but other context, such as the player's role in the rotation, cannot be considered. Another completely arbitrary and subjective method of analysis, but that seems to be your thing.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I had a similar debate on here a few years ago regarding whether Pangos was as good of a PG as Delly, or if he would surpass Delly as a PG by the end of his college career. I'm good with the caliber of guard RB gets down in Moraga.

Zagceo
01-23-2016, 02:41 PM
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I had a similar debate on here a few years ago regarding whether Pangos was as good of a PG as Delly, or if he would surpass Delly as a PG by the end of his college career. I'm good with the caliber of guard RB gets down in Moraga.

If good with guards whats missing for more titles?

ProVeeZag
01-23-2016, 02:49 PM
[/B]

Right or wrong is your game and what's sad is your condescending attitude thinking I need your help understanding a game I've loved for over 50 years...give it a break champ...

Go!! Zags!!!

Keep loving this game ... best not to engage on his level ... it just feeds the beast.

roundup
01-23-2016, 02:56 PM
If good with guards whats missing for more titles?

NBA caliber bigs like Sacre, Harris, Olynick, Wiltjer, and Sabonis lol.

seacatfan
01-23-2016, 02:58 PM
NBA caliber bigs like Sacre, Harris, Olynick, Wiltjer, and Sabonis lol.

Kickert, Samhan, Simpson, Waldow weren't chopped liver.

roundup
01-23-2016, 03:07 PM
Not in the least, but there's a reason why only one of them had a legitimate cup of coffee with the NBA. Samhan and Waldow were long term projects who had to redshirt and play a few years before becoming effective. All of those guys you named were just hoping for a training camp invite after graduating, where there was at least talk of Harris, Olynick, Wiltjer and Sabonis declaring early for the draft.

seacatfan
01-23-2016, 03:22 PM
Sacre (journeyman) and Olynk are the only 2 currently in the NBA that you mentioned (Turiaf too). Sabonis seems like a sure bet to join them soon, but Wiltjer isn't a guarantee by any means. I think all the GU guys other than Sabonis and Wiltjer were considered projects initially.

Samhan and Waldow were both very productive 4 year big men. The fact they didn't end up in the NBA has no bearing on what they were as college players.

roundup
01-23-2016, 03:46 PM
Sacre (journeyman) and Olynk are the only 2 currently in the NBA that you mentioned (Turiaf too). Sabonis seems like a sure bet to join them soon, but Wiltjer isn't a guarantee by any means. I think all the GU guys other than Sabonis and Wiltjer were considered projects initially.

Samhan and Waldow were both very productive 4 year big men. The fact they didn't end up in the NBA has no bearing on what they were as college players.

Of course it doesn't take anything away from what Brad and Omar accomplished. But the fact that Olynick left early as a lottery pick, Sabonis will probably leave early as a lottery pick, Harris probably should have left early as a lottery pick, and Turiaf and Sacre stuck in the NBA while Wiltjer is an All American and still has a legitimate shot at the league is illustrative of how the Zags bigs have been regarded in terms of skill, athleticism, and potential compared to their SMC counterparts over the years.

We have had some very good bigs, but going back to the original question, IMO it has been the steady stream of NBA caliber Zag big men that have been the main obstacle in SMC getting more than one outright and two shared WCC championships in the RB / Few era. Our guard play has been more even, IMO.

Zagceo
01-23-2016, 03:55 PM
We have had some very good bigs, but going back to the original question, IMO it has been the steady stream of NBA caliber Zag big men that have been the main obstacle in SMC getting more than one outright and two shared WCC championships in the RB / Few era. Our guard play has been more even, IMO.

……. good points!

its a package I get it…….but so many seem to stress guard play in winning championships that when we look at our past teams……..I agree with you.

Outraged
01-23-2016, 06:37 PM
I wanted to wait a day before I posted.

My take was that this was the best I seen our guys play all year. Eric has found the magic and can now demand the ball at anytime and although he is around 6ft he rebounds and blocks like a 7footer. Kyle did not shoot much but that is okay others shot and made them ... so nothing lost there. However its easy to see is was not all there...foot...flu...I don't know but too many minutes I think. I wont get into the nitty gritty about each player because they were basically playing as team in this one for the first time.

Now I will give my take on why we lost. We had a lull in the second half were a series of little bad decisions led to a turnover a hand check there. Our team awareness and focus dropped a notch and the best offense in the country took advantage of it. I think when we started to sit guys out because of too many fouls etc. because of some dumb hand checks. Different players had to adjust their roles to like playing point guard and we did not adjust right on it and were off just a little bit and were a half step off and that was all SMC needed.

I will say I thought the refs played with a different demeanor with the zags than Gaels.It was a little much.

Overall I was damned happy with how the zags played and impressed with SMC.

ProVeeZag
01-23-2016, 07:50 PM
I wanted to wait a day before I posted.

My take was that this was the best I seen our guys play all year. Eric has found the magic and can now demand the ball at anytime and although he is around 6ft he rebounds and blocks like a 7footer. .

Emac is listed at 6'4", 196 lbs. That, along with nice wingspan and crazy vertical leap and anticipating missed shots, all contribute to his rebounding ability. Because he is so quick, it's easy to think he is smaller than he actually is.