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thespywhozaggedme
01-14-2016, 08:06 PM
Drangs has regressed and can't even make a layup, Melson is petrified, Alberts literally does nothing, EMAc is constantly outta control and Perk is pretty decent. We're not going anywhere this season.

JAGzag
01-14-2016, 08:08 PM
This team is one dimensional. Very, very average.

thespywhozaggedme
01-14-2016, 08:09 PM
This may be our worst group of guards, since ever. They're collectively awful .

zagsfanforlife
01-14-2016, 08:09 PM
Drangs has regressed and can't even make a layup, Melson is petrified, Alberts literally does nothing, EMAc is constantly outta control and Perk is pretty decent. We're not going anywhere this season.

Dranginis is a perfect case of a player meant to be role player. He was very good in that role when surrounded by superior talent. Put him on a squad with not good players around him, where he has to be more than that, and he looks below average. Was definitely wrong on him.

MTZag03
01-14-2016, 08:10 PM
I just feel so terrible after this game. Ugh. I feel like this season is going nowhere. We've always had good guard play since the run began. The talent is there, but my goodness they panic and forget to ride Sabonis and Wiltjer. They try keeping up with other guards rather than playing to the teams strength. Ugh.

ZagLawGrad
01-14-2016, 08:11 PM
no surprises tonite

Ezag
01-14-2016, 08:12 PM
That's what happens when you have a 2 man scoring team. If one has an off night you lose

seacatfan
01-14-2016, 08:13 PM
Glad I was watching another game. Disappointing to cough up a double digit second half lead. So this is what happens when you have a 2 man team and one of them barely plays due to foul trouble. Wiltjer maybe should've passed the ball on that last possession rather than force a tough shot against a triple team? Would've been nice if he hit his 2nd free throw right before that.

DADoZAG
01-14-2016, 08:14 PM
This team is one dimensional. Very, very average.

I'm sure the guards are doing what they're told. The team isn't average, but they are coached to be one dimensional.

JMO

The focus needs to be to just get better, and the only wins that matter now start March 4th.

Go ZAGS!

GUfan34
01-14-2016, 08:15 PM
Glad I was watching another game. Disappointing to cough up a double digit second half lead. So this is what happens when you have a 2 man team and one of them barely plays due to foul trouble. Wiltjer maybe should've passed the ball on that last possession rather than force a tough shot against a triple team? Would've been nice if he hit his 2nd free throw right before that.

Remember the missed lay up vs Duke last year?

The moment gets too big for KW... Bottom line.

Plainsman
01-14-2016, 08:15 PM
Drangs has regressed and can't even make a layup, Melson is petrified, Alberts literally does nothing, EMAc is constantly outta control and Perk is pretty decent. We're not going anywhere this season.

Pretty much on the money, although Perkins' contribution comes and goes. A truly pathetic offensive supporting performance by all the guards tonight. Wiltjer and Sabonis simply can't do it all. When the two best players are big men, it's a problem because they don't have the ball in their hands a majority of the time. I'm beginning to conclude that the supporting cast are going to be season long stand ins (and there's no one else to audition).

GUfan34
01-14-2016, 08:16 PM
I'm sure the guards are doing what they're told. The team isn't average, but they are coached to be one dimensional.

JMO

The focus needs to be to just get better, and the only wins that matter now start March 4th.

Go ZAGS!

This is ridiculous.

Blame the coaching? Blame the recruiting if you want, but the guards suck.

Call me when they can make solid decisions and hit outside shots.

DADoZAG
01-14-2016, 08:19 PM
This is ridiculous.

Blame the coaching? Blame the recruiting if you want, but the guards suck.

Call me when they can make solid decisions and hit outside shots.

How many outside shots did they miss?

There's still plenty of time, plenty of games.

Expand and grow.

Go ZAGS!

zags422
01-14-2016, 08:20 PM
I think what's most asinine is the guards we have playing just do not make sense for the scheme that we run. If we want to push it inside to our bigs to post-up we need shooters on the wings to make teams pay for doubling down......these are the worst shooting guards we've had in 15 years. Recruiting/coaching/scheme: doesn't make sense this season. just waiting for next year now, but not sure will help that much.

Ezag
01-14-2016, 08:20 PM
Don't let Coach Crazy get a hold of this thread....he will rip you all a new one and tell you to chill...the tourney bid is in the bag

bartruff1
01-14-2016, 08:22 PM
This is ridiculous.

Blame the coaching? Blame the recruiting if you want, but the guards suck.

Call me when they can make solid decisions and hit outside shots.

The coach hasn't changed, the guards have.

Ezag
01-14-2016, 08:23 PM
The coach hasn't changed, the guards have.

Exactly! Coach can only do so much, you need a floor leader which we lack this year.

Outraged
01-14-2016, 08:24 PM
Now Now. I put this one on sabonis. He was the biggest underperformer. No excuse. The guards met expectations for the most part. They're not as developed as we wish them to be but we knew that.

75Zag
01-14-2016, 08:24 PM
When do we play Pacific?

Go Bulldogs!

23dpg
01-14-2016, 08:25 PM
How many outside shots did they miss?
80% of them? Serious reply.
There's still plenty of time, plenty of games.
True
Expand and grow.


Go ZAGS!


Go zags

zags422
01-14-2016, 08:25 PM
wrong, the style of guard play has changed...that's recruiting (coaching). Outside shot was paramount to success last 15+ years

ProjectMKUltra5
01-14-2016, 08:28 PM
wrong, the style of guard play has changed...that's recruiting (coaching). Outside shot was paramount to success last 15+ years

This. Most of my feelings on the season hinged on adjusting to a group of guards who aren't traditional shooters and that hasn't happend. We're still trying to play GU basketball with a group of kids that are probably better off playing in a less structured offense.

Spike94
01-14-2016, 08:29 PM
Only two things you need to know. Eric McClellan is a 30 percent 3 point shooter. He was 0 yes thats right a big fat O , Zip, Zilch, Zero for frickin 5 from 3 tonight. including with 3;21 left in the game and BYU making their run. Way to stay under control. At what point do you consider yourself NOT a 3 point shooter? And another 0. 0 assists for Kyle. You know why they got the block from across the key on the last shot? Because he never, ever, ever passes the ball once he starts to dribble. Very predictable.

ProVeeZag
01-14-2016, 08:29 PM
That's what happens when you have a 2 man scoring team. If one has an off night you lose

And there it is, the honest to goodness TRUTH.

MDABE80
01-14-2016, 08:30 PM
25% shooting by the guards..pretty atrocious. What's worse though is how the team is being manage don court. In game mangement is just awful. Shooting is off tonight, spacing was just a disaster for everyone. 4 guy within 8 ft of each other shows something.......not sure what it is but it's terrible.
Clumbdy ball ahndling. not a good night for the guards.
That and fouls fro Bonus.........
We had our chances. Defense was great in the fist half but the last 20 minutes of defense was not close to what they can do on D. Lost cause tonight. 13 pt lead blown. Defense just fell apart. When Dfense wilts, and the offense is ineffective, not much to say.

Ezag
01-14-2016, 08:31 PM
How many outside shots did they miss?

There's still plenty of time, plenty of games.

Expand and grow.

Go ZAGS!

That's the problem. They are not growing as a team. Perk has gotten better for sure. Wilt and Sabonis for the most part holding steady...rest of the team has not improved at all.

Plainsman
01-14-2016, 08:32 PM
25% shooting by the guards..pretty atrocious. What's worse though is how the team is being manage don court. In game mangement is just awful. Shooting is off tonight, spacing was just a disaster for everyone. 4 guy within 8 ft of each other shows something.......not sure what it is but it's terrible.
Clumbdy ball ahndling. not a good night for the guards.
That and fouls fro Bonus.........
We had our chances. Defense was great in the fist half but the last 20 minutes of defense was not close to what they can do on D. Lost cause tonight. 13 pt lead blown. Defense just fell apart. When Dfense wilts, and the offense is ineffective, not much to say.

According to SI box score, the guards shot 8 for 37, which is about 21% (stats include 2 and 3 point attempts). I don't think this one point loss was on Sabonis, despite his foul trouble.

hooter73
01-14-2016, 08:33 PM
Perkins 2/8
Emac 3/12
Melson 0/1
Drang 1/3
Alberts 0/1

24% shooting from the guards from the field

http://stats.statbroadcast.com/statmonitr/?id=109399&a=1

ZagsObserver
01-14-2016, 08:33 PM
How many outside shots did they miss?

There's still plenty of time, plenty of games.

Expand and grow.

Go ZAGS!

Defenders are leaving them open. They can't hit OPEN shots. That's what's killing the team and making it harder for the bigs.

Ezag
01-14-2016, 08:34 PM
According to SI box score, the guards shot 8 for 37, which is about 21% (stats include 2 and 3 point attempts). I don't think this one point loss was on Sabonis, despite his foul trouble.

Yea blaming Sabonis is ludicrous. He and Wilt both give 110% every game....not sure if the other give 100% or the they just don't have the skills

CDC84
01-14-2016, 08:34 PM
This game was lost because one of the Wooden Award Candidates got into foul trouble and was a complete no show tonight.

We know enough about this team by now to know that they can't beat good teams unless both KW and Sabonis have really good games. This has especially become the case since Karno went down.

I wouldn't say the guards suck. If they truly sucked, this team wouldn't have a 13-4 record. But they are clearly lacking. I felt Josh Perkins was too passive tonight when it came to looking for his offense.

ZagaZags
01-14-2016, 08:36 PM
Miss You Like Crazy.


http://media.spokesman.com/picture_story_item_images/SRX_10338_t940.jpg?e9219e083a78a4429a18d28d8a24b72 ce48bf775


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=a5MKk53m1qI

MickMick
01-14-2016, 08:37 PM
Sometimes it is best not to post. For that reason, I have not posted much at all this season.

I have not lost my fandom.

There just isn't much to write about except to a few of those that gave me a ton of crap at the start of the season. To them I say, "Told ya so."

To those that try to blame Sabonis?

The truth is that the guards really do suck. All of them.

Please don't even try to put lipstick on this pig.

OZZY
01-14-2016, 08:37 PM
Hero ball is not GU ball......................................

DADoZAG
01-14-2016, 08:37 PM
80% of them? Serious reply.

Go zags

It just seems obvious to me that the guards aren't looking for their shot, it's an after thought.

BYU shot about the same from 3.

The final play by Wiltj, as mentioned by Spike, was pretty easy to defend.

Team just seems one dimensional.

Go ZAGS!

Ezag
01-14-2016, 08:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw-EHzK9LgY

GUfan34
01-14-2016, 08:39 PM
wrong, the style of guard play has changed...that's recruiting (coaching). Outside shot was paramount to success last 15+ years


I'll be the first to admit the coaches know 10000 times more than me...

But if I were recruiting guards and they couldn't shoot, I'd leave the gym

GUfan34
01-14-2016, 08:41 PM
And Perkins will have his moments.. But he'll never be on that Santangelo/Dickau/Stepp or even Pangos level

Spike94
01-14-2016, 08:41 PM
This game was lost because one of the Wooden Award Candidates got into foul trouble and was a complete no show tonight.

We know enough about this team by now to know that they can't beat good teams unless both KW and Sabonis have really good games. This has especially become the case since Karno went down.

I wouldn't say the guards suck. If they truly sucked, this team wouldn't have a 13-4 record. But they are clearly lacking. I felt Josh Perkins was too passive tonight when it came to looking for his offense.

Our guards are horrible. There is no other way to put it. They can't hit water if they fell out of a boat. Both of our top scorers are big guys. There is a reason why Sabonis can't get a shot. They pack it in on him because 3 of the 5 guys on the floor are NO threat at all. Cover KW with your best one on one guy, pack the paint and make life tough on Sabonis and let the other three huck up a bunch of bricks and shoot 21-25 percent. Eric was 3/17 for crying out loud. And as far as 13-4 goes, who are the good wins in there? We have lost 3 games at home this year. That used to be 5 years worth. This has EVERYTHING to do with the guards.

ZAGLAWQB
01-14-2016, 08:42 PM
Down year. Play it out. Maybe sneak in. Accelerate recruiting with
immediate playing time on the table. Real time hard evaluations
on current guys who may be better off dropping down. It is the
business that was chosen....

ZagaZags
01-14-2016, 08:42 PM
Don't Forget Me (When I'm Gone)

http://media.spokesman.com/picture_story_item_images/SRX_10338_t940.jpg?e9219e083a78a4429a18d28d8a24b72 ce48bf775

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Jx6_-urg5fo

ProVeeZag
01-14-2016, 08:46 PM
It just seems obvious to me that the guards aren't looking for their shot, it's an after thought.


Well, EMAC was certainly looking for his shot, especially that last 2-3 minutes. How'd that work out for us?? I can't recall a sloppier game by the Zags in several years. There were probably 6 or 7 passes that didn't result in turnovers, but should have. Pass the bucket ... I think I'm gonna hurl!

DADoZAG
01-14-2016, 08:46 PM
When my crew at work doesn't perform well, I'll be the last one to blame them.

I'm not a successful D1 coach, but I respect my team at work, I respected my teams that I did coach.

When a team doesn't perform up to their best, it's always the coach's fault.

JMO

Go ZAGS!

zags422
01-14-2016, 08:47 PM
That's a fair point...but clearly we can agree EMAC has an iffy stroke for sure.

Then...I think we can agree that Perkins is a fairly smart guard, good handles, and pass first guy (also our best shooter)

if we agree on this then everyone left should be able to shoot, statistically they can't. so they're either coached not to shoot, spaced poorly or have zero confidence. The zero confidence has been all season so that'd be tough to argue. and given, there's probably more than 3 reasons...but......I point

to coaching...this scheme sucks, and the ball movement and spacing is horrible---coaching

GUfan34
01-14-2016, 08:47 PM
What sucks is, we'll probably never have a better front court as we've had the last 2 seasons....

And look at us this year?

Its alllllllll about the guards.

Zags need the next Dickau. Can they do it?

Ezag
01-14-2016, 08:49 PM
What sucks is, we'll probably never have a better front court as we've had the last 2 seasons....

And look at us this year?

Its alllllllll about the guards.

Zags need the next Dickau. Can they do it?

No, 18 games in should be a tell sign

WallaWallaZag
01-14-2016, 08:49 PM
What sucks is, we'll probably never have a better front court as we've had the last 2 seasons....

And look at us this year?

Its alllllllll about the guards.

Zags need the next Dickau. Can they do it?

need to pull jesse wade off his mission...

MickMick
01-14-2016, 08:50 PM
That's a fair point...but clearly we can agree EMAC has an iffy stroke for sure.

Then...I think we can agree that Perkins is a fairly smart guard, good handles, and pass first guy (also our best shooter)

if we agree on this then everyone left should be able to shoot, statistically they can't. so they're either coached not to shoot, spaced poorly or have zero confidence. The zero confidence has been all season so that'd be tough to argue. and given, there's probably more than 3 reasons...but......I point

to coaching...this scheme sucks, and the ball movement and spacing is horrible---coaching



Perkins? Handles? :roll:

gonwick
01-14-2016, 08:52 PM
The guards are no fun to watch. Not only can't they hit open shots, they can't pass or just play fundamentally sound basketball. How many turnovers have there been tonight and this season where they make a dumb decision? Picking up the dribble, just getting the fricking ball inbounds (remember the three point swing when a bad inbounds led to a three point play for collinsworth). Tonight, there were way too many risky/bad passes that had zero upside. It is one thing if a pass is high risk, high reward. These guards love to make high risk, zero reward passes (especially perkins, who is the best of the lot). Even if by some miracle they don't turn it over, the end result is often eMac with the ball behind the three point arc, which is a turnover waiting to happen. The team is a middle of the road pac 12 team at best, maybe bottom third. If they make the tournament without an autobid, this is the kind of team other league's fans will justifiably scream about. A record based on beating up on a mediocre league. Hopefully next year will be watchable. My wife gave up on this year over a month ago. Not a great year for HBO to be here. Ironic if the show about being tournament bound features the first zag team in recent memory to miss out.

CDC84
01-14-2016, 08:52 PM
There is a reason why Sabonis can't get a shot. They pack it in on him because 3 of the 5 guys on the floor are NO threat at all.

He can't get a shot when he's sitting on the bench the whole time with foul trouble. He continues to have issues with picking up cheap fouls, which he simply cannot afford to do with Shem being out.

The guards are what they are. I still feel that if the guards truly sucked or were truly horrible (those are harsh words), this team would have a losing record. They don't suck, they are lacking. And in some places inexperienced.

Perkins before tonight's game was shooting 48% from the floor and 41% from three. I don't think you can really lump him in with Melson and EMac's lack of offensive production. It's really a shame that Alberts isn't getting more shots from 3 point land. Whether it's his fault or the guys not looking for him.....he's too good of a shooter to not be putting shots up.


What sucks is, we'll probably never have a better front court as we've had the last 2 seasons....

Not necessarily if Shem takes a medical redshirt and Sabonis returns. Those two with Jonathan Williams and Zach Collins would be really special :)

zags422
01-14-2016, 08:52 PM
if that's a midwest term......I apologize?? lol, he can dribble good and stuff (not great)

misunderstanding this jovial point

zagsfanforlife
01-14-2016, 08:54 PM
Perkins? Handles? :roll:

I was laughing more at the fact that he is apparently "our best shooter".. but ya the handles part to some means he can dribble between his legs, behind his back every which way... but those people dismiss that the guy cant make a solid two hand chest pass to someone 5 feet away or run a pick and a roll

zags422
01-14-2016, 08:55 PM
haha, well that too, i meant of the guards.............jeezub

Ezag
01-14-2016, 08:56 PM
I was laughing more at the fact that he is apparently "our best shooter".. but ya the handles part to some means he can dribble between his legs, behind his back every which way... but those people dismiss that the guy cant make a solid two hand chest pass to someone 5 feet away or run a pick and a roll

What's a pick and roll? I am not sure I have seen one this year

zagsfanforlife
01-14-2016, 09:01 PM
He can't get a shot when he's sitting on the bench the whole time with foul trouble. He continues to have issues with picking up cheap fouls, which he simply cannot afford to do with Shem being out.

The guards are what they are. I still feel that if the guards truly sucked or were truly horrible (those are harsh words), this team would have a losing record. They don't suck, they are lacking. And in some places inexperienced.

Perkins before tonight's game was shooting 48% from the floor and 41% from three. I don't think you can really lump him in with Melson and EMac's lack of offensive production. It's really a shame that Alberts isn't getting more shots from 3 point land. Whether it's his fault or the guys not looking for him.....he's too good of a shooter to not be putting shots up.

Ok... ill bite.. if they dont "suck", who is good? Perkins? Mcclelan? Melson? I really am not sure other that Mcclelan or Melson would start for more than half of the WCC teams... and Perkins i dont view as a very good guard. None of them can shoot consistently or at all, none can run a team which is crucial for a PG, and they all turn the ball over more than some of these high school women's basketball games i watch.

ProVeeZag
01-14-2016, 09:01 PM
On the plus side, I thought the referee crew did a nice job tonight. Kudos to the men in stripes.

thespywhozaggedme
01-14-2016, 09:10 PM
Not only have they not improved, they've freakin regressed! People are saying they're not good shooting guards, but they're not good layup guards, as they get blocked at the rim constantly, or simply miss point blank layups and they're not good passing guards (except for Perk) as they're constantly throwing the ball away.
That's the problem. They are not growing as a team. Perk has gotten better for sure. Wilt and Sabonis for the most part holding steady...rest of the team has not improved at all.

thespywhozaggedme
01-14-2016, 09:14 PM
Utter nonsense! You can't expect to expect Sabonis and Wiltjer carry the load every freakin night, the best players in the country have off nights occasionally. Is it really too much to expect our entire duard and wing unit to shoot better than 23% from the field? To blame this on Dontmiss is the epitome of scapegoating and burying your head in the sand regarding our guards.
This game was lost because one of the Wooden Award Candidates got into foul trouble and was a complete no show tonight.

We know enough about this team by now to know that they can't beat good teams unless both KW and Sabonis have really good games. This has especially become the case since Karno went down.

I wouldn't say the guards suck. If they truly sucked, this team wouldn't have a 13-4 record. But they are clearly lacking. I felt Josh Perkins was too passive tonight when it came to looking for his offense.

zagsfanforlife
01-14-2016, 09:16 PM
Not only have they not improved, they've freakin regressed! People are saying they're not good shooting guards, but they're not good layup guards, as they get blocked at the rim constantly, or simply miss point blank layups and they're not good passing guards (except for Perk) as they're constantly throwing the ball away.

We usually dont agree but 100% right. Not shooting guards, not point guards, not leaders... i made a comment on another thread but i really am not sure that a few of those guards would start for half of the WCC teams... man when is the last time we could say that?

thespywhozaggedme
01-14-2016, 09:16 PM
It just seems obvious to me that the guards aren't looking for their shot, it's an after thought.

BYU shot about the same from 3.

The final play by Wiltj, as mentioned by Spike, was pretty easy to defend.

Team just seems one dimensional.

Go ZAGS!

They can look all they want but you can't find what isn't there. EMac does this weird thing with his feet every time he takes a three that puts him off balance just as he releases the ball.

thespywhozaggedme
01-14-2016, 09:17 PM
This I don't agree with. He has amazing court vision, he's just not the sharpest tool in the shed.
And Perkins will have his moments.. But he'll never be on that Santangelo/Dickau/Stepp or even Pangos level

Ezag
01-14-2016, 09:18 PM
They can look all they want but you can't find what isn't there. EMac does this weird thing with his feet every time he takes a three that puts him off balance just as he releases the ball.

Problem with eMac is that he can't finish, can't shoot and runs to fast for his own good

thespywhozaggedme
01-14-2016, 09:20 PM
Man, I can't believe how much denial your in tonight. You're like the Baghdad Bob of this board.
He can't get a shot when he's sitting on the bench the whole time with foul trouble. He continues to have issues with picking up cheap fouls, which he simply cannot afford to do with Shem being out.

The guards are what they are. I still feel that if the guards truly sucked or were truly horrible (those are harsh words), this team would have a losing record. They don't suck, they are lacking. And in some places inexperienced.

Perkins before tonight's game was shooting 48% from the floor and 41% from three. I don't think you can really lump him in with Melson and EMac's lack of offensive production. It's really a shame that Alberts isn't getting more shots from 3 point land. Whether it's his fault or the guys not looking for him.....he's too good of a shooter to not be putting shots up.



Not necessarily if Shem takes a medical redshirt and Sabonis returns. Those two with Jonathan Williams and Zach Collins would be really special :)

thespywhozaggedme
01-14-2016, 09:23 PM
He's constantly outta control. How many times did he get blocked at the rim tonight? It was absurd.
Problem with eMac is that he can't finish, can't shoot and runs to fast for his own good

GeorgiaZagFan
01-14-2016, 09:34 PM
I think the best thing that could happen to this team would be for Wiltjer and Sabonis to both get injured for about 6-8 games, nothing serious but just keep them on the bench and force the other players to step it up! We might lose some of those games, but face it, the ONLY way this team makes the NCAA tourney this year is to win the WCC tourney and that won't happen if the guards and players other than Wiltjer and Sabonis don't start playing at a higher level.

ZAGLAWQB
01-14-2016, 09:35 PM
Is there a reason Sabonis would come back?

Reborn
01-14-2016, 09:36 PM
The game tonight looked quite a bit like the loss at home last year to BYU. Just about the same score, and Collinsworth killed us last year too.I think he had 25 both last year and tonight. The Zags ended up winning the WCC and wCC tournament and did great in the NCAA Tournament. I am not discouraged as some here seem to be. Lots of games left to get it right.

I honestly don't see how you can not see how Sabonis hurt the Zags' chances for a victory tonight. He only scored 5 points. And honestly we almost won it with his ineffective play. If you want to be blind that he often pics up really stupid foul shots then it's up to you. they do hurt the team. we all know he's a great player but he needs to play in order to be great. He just didn't play tonight. He sat out most of the game. Collinsworth, on the other hand, only sat out the first half. He played the whole second half and killed us. Saboini sat out most of the second half too.

One great thing about our guards is that they worked their butts off on defense and played great defense tonight. It was their defense that kept Gonzaga in the game. BYU averages above 80 pts a game. They also have great 3 pt shooters and overall our guards held them down by lots of hard work. If Sabonis gets his average GU wins easily.

And I thought Edwards played pretty darn good tonight. I enjoyed watching him play. He was good in there tonight and did a good job. IMO. 6 points....That's contributing.

Go Zags!!!

thespywhozaggedme
01-14-2016, 09:36 PM
Without those two we wouldn't win a game. I think many fail to realize that other than Perk, they guards sadly just don't have the talent to "step up". Can't wait for NWG.
I think the best thing that could happen to this team would be for Wiltjer and Sabonis to both get injured for about 6-8 games, nothing serious but just keep them on the bench and force the other players to step it up! We might lose some of those games, but face it, the ONLY way this team makes the NCAA tourney this year is to win the WCC tourney and that won't happen if the guards and players other than Wiltjer and Sabonis don't start playing at a higher level.

thespywhozaggedme
01-14-2016, 09:38 PM
This is nuts that you and CDC are blaming the loss on Don'tmiss. Even the best players in the world have off nights, it's then up to your teammates to pick up the slack. Our guards are literally incapable of "picking up the slack", Blaming Sabonos is just nuts.
The game tonight looked quite a bit like the loss at home last year to BYU. Just about the same score, and Collinsworth killed us last year too.I think he had 25 both last year and tonight. The Zags ended up winning the WCC and wCC tournament and did great in the NCAA Tournament. I am not discouraged as some here seem to be. Lots of games left to get it right.

I honestly don't see how you can not see how Sabonis hurt the Zags' chances for a victory tonight. He only scored 5 points. And honestly we almost won it with his ineffective play. If you want to be blind that he often pics up really stupid foul shots then it's up to you. they do hurt the team. we all know he's a great player but he needs to play in order to be great. He just didn't play tonight. He sat out most of the game. Collinsworth, on the other hand, only sat out the first half. He played the whole second half and killed us. Saboini sat out most of the second half too.

One great thing about our guards is that they worked their butts off on defense and played great defense tonight. It was their defense that kept Gonzaga in the game. BYU averages above 80 pts a game. They also have great 3 pt shooters and overall our guards held them down by lots of hard work. If Sabonis gets his average GU wins easily.

And I thought Edwards played pretty darn good tonight. I enjoyed watching him play. He was good in there tonight and did a good job. IMO. 6 points....That's contributing.

Go Zags!!!

MiamiZags
01-14-2016, 09:39 PM
Yea blaming Sabonis is ludicrous. He and Wilt both give 110% every game....not sure if the other give 100% or the they just don't have the skills

I'm unsure how anyone could ever say Wiltjer gives 110%. I watched in disgust on one play tonight as he got outmuscled and missed a close shot on offense and then slowly moped back up court as his man got an and-1. (not the first time I've seen this) As great as his offense can be, and as bad as our guards can look - I find myself more angry with his softness and lack of effort at times than with the guard play. Also, if you go back to the BYU run that cost us our lead, the defensive lapses and turnovers hurt more than anything. Although, I never remember seeing such ugly Zag offense in my life.

thespywhozaggedme
01-14-2016, 09:43 PM
Wiltjer is an offensive juggernaut, but that's all he is. Knowing that helps me keep things in perspective regarding watching him.
I'm unsure how anyone could ever say Wiltjer gives 110%. I watched in disgust on one play tonight as he got outmuscled and missed a close shot on offense and then slowly moped back up court as his man got an and-1. (not the first time I've seen this) As great as his offense can be, and as bad as our guards can look - I find myself more angry with his softness and lack of effort at times than with the guard play. Also, if you go back to the BYU run that cost us our lead, the defensive lapses and turnovers hurt more than anything. Although, I never remember seeing such ugly Zag offense in my life.

ZagNation
01-14-2016, 09:44 PM
This I don't agree with. He has amazing court vision, he's just not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Ouch!

thespywhozaggedme
01-14-2016, 09:44 PM
41 posts in 9 years' wow! I love to hear feedback from fans like you, instead of windbags like myself. Good to read your pov.
I'm unsure how anyone could ever say Wiltjer gives 110%. I watched in disgust on one play tonight as he got outmuscled and missed a close shot on offense and then slowly moped back up court as his man got an and-1. (not the first time I've seen this) As great as his offense can be, and as bad as our guards can look - I find myself more angry with his softness and lack of effort at times than with the guard play. Also, if you go back to the BYU run that cost us our lead, the defensive lapses and turnovers hurt more than anything. Although, I never remember seeing such ugly Zag offense in my life.

strikenowhere
01-14-2016, 09:44 PM
Yep, thread summed it up nicely. Sabonis & Wiltjer CANNOT be expected to go 2 vs. 5 every game. How anyone could possibly lay the blame on Sabonis is beyond my limited basketball comprehension...might as well blame Karnowski while you are at it...he had a bad game too - zero points/blocks/rebounds! Foul trouble happens and that is when other players need to step up and fill in. You honestly don't think BYU game planned to get our bigs in trouble? Without Sabonis & Wiltjer this team would be be at the bottom of the league with the likes of Pacific & Santa Clara.

At least I won't have to agonize over whether or not to pick the Zags in the tournament this year :vomit-smiley-007:

Bring on Williams-Goss & Norvell!

strikenowhere
01-14-2016, 09:46 PM
Without those two we wouldn't win a game. I think many fail to realize that other than Perk, they guards sadly just don't have the talent to "step up". Can't wait for NWG.

Damn straight +1

thespywhozaggedme
01-14-2016, 09:48 PM
Yep, thread summed it up nicely. Sabonis & Wiltjer CANNOT be expected to go 2 vs. 5 every game. How anyone could possibly lay the blame on Sabonis is beyond my limited basketball comprehension...might as well blame Karnowski while you are at it...he had a bad game too - zero points/blocks/rebounds! Foul trouble happens and that is when other players need to step up and fill in. You honestly don't think BYU game planned to get our bigs in trouble? Without Sabonis & Wiltjer this team would be be at the bottom of the league with the likes of Pacific & Santa Clara.

At least I won't have to agonize over whether or not to pick the Zags in the tournament this year :vomit-smiley-007:



Bring on Williams-Goss & Norvell!

Ha, I was thinking that very thing. Every year when I fill out my bracket, I always pick the Zags to go all the way and last year my co-workers were really impressed with our team. This year...............

Reborn
01-14-2016, 09:59 PM
And on a more positive note. Still no bad losses. Losing to BYU at home is not a bad loss, imo. We are still tied for first place with BYU and St Mary's. That's good too. Winning the conference, imo, is ALWAYS important. It's still a good goal, and the Zags will be fighting for it, and giving everything they can. The Zags will always have a chance of winning if they continue to play good D. Nothing wrong with the D tonight. We did get out rebounded, but only because Sabonis played very little.

Go Zags!!!

ZagNation
01-14-2016, 10:04 PM
And on a more positive note. Still no bad losses. Losing to BYU at home is not a bad loss, imo. We are still tied for first place with BYU and St Mary's. That's good too. Winning the conference, imo, is ALWAYS important. It's still a good goal, and the Zags will be fighting for it, and giving everything they can. The Zags will always have a chance of winning if they continue to play good D. Nothing wrong with the D tonight. We did get out rebounded, but only because Sabonis played very little.

Go Zags!!!

3 losses at home within a month isn't good.

MDABE80
01-14-2016, 10:45 PM
According to SI box score, the guards shot 8 for 37, which is about 21% (stats include 2 and 3 point attempts). I don't think this one point loss was on Sabonis, despite his foul trouble.

Don't misquote or twist what I wrote. Sabonis is not to blame. He can't reound and shoot sitting on his ass on the bench. Are the early fouls his fault? Questionable. But when he's out, he 's out. Best player. Hard to win without him. Such synergy lost with Karno gone. No matter./...the guards had a bad game. Perkins, I still believe in. But we're not used to this erratic style of guard play. Fellas and gals.we do what we can. Now we're not 11 pts from perfect. We're 12 pts from perfect/.
We have lots of help on the way.
We've got a good team. Just not tonight.

maynard g krebs
01-14-2016, 11:04 PM
This. Most of my feelings on the season hinged on adjusting to a group of guards who aren't traditional shooters and that hasn't happend. We're still trying to play GU basketball with a group of kids that are probably better off playing in a less structured offense.

Exactly. The guards are not a match for the front line. They are players that need to play in something like Dana Altman's pinwheel offense or something like that imo, playing motion off the high post creating cutting lanes to get to the hoop and create foul pressure. That's the only way guys like Melson and EM can be effective.

And if guys are gonna shoot at all, they need to shoot it with confidence. McClellan had 3 3's rim out tonight; he's being dared to shoot, and hesitates, sometimes shooting and sometimes declining. Shooting without confidence, kind of like he has neither green light nor red, but yellow. Thus doubt, and you can't shoot if you don't believe.

Thus to me it's a coaching/recruiting issue. Guards' skill set needs to complement/ fit with what the posts do and vice versa. Perkins is overall doing pretty well the last 8 games, but McClellan, who was coming along pretty well a few weeks ago, seems to be regressing, confused and tentative. I only mention him and not the other 3 because I had higher expectations for him, and he's had a handful of games that prove he's capable of more.

hooter73
01-14-2016, 11:06 PM
Perkins passing? No. Just no. Go back and watch Edwards minutes. He had position each and every time he needed to on the offensive end and no one even looked to get him the ball. The entirity of our guard lineup is only capable of looking for Wiltjer or Sabonis and letting them score. They don't know what else to do if that option is not there.

GUfan34
01-14-2016, 11:11 PM
Perkins passing? No. Just no. Go back and watch Edwards minutes. He had position each and every time he needed to on the offensive end and no one even looked to get him the ball. The entirity of our guard lineup is only capable of looking for Wiltjer or Sabonis and letting them score. They don't know what else to do if that option is not there.

To be fair, nobody has confidence in Edwards because he's been awful, and missed another easy lay up tonight.

If you want to run the offense through Edwards when he's in the game, expect a scoring drought

ProVeeZag
01-14-2016, 11:12 PM
McClellan, who was coming along pretty well a few weeks ago, seems to be regressing, confused and tentative. I only mention him and not the other 3 because I had higher expectations for him, and he's had a handful of games that prove he's capable of more.

The last 2 games I've noticed EMAC's shooting stroke is mechanically "so not the same". The ball is coming off his hand differently, just looks very unnatural. I'd be curious if anyone else has noticed this. Would be interesting to compare his stroke now to earlier, side by side in super slow-mo. Definitely no longer the stroke of a confident shooter...

john montana
01-14-2016, 11:52 PM
1). Losing to BYU sucks. Dirtiest team in the NCAA, sanctioned by a dirtbag coach.

2). Our margin for error this season is RAZOR thin. It was thin before PK went down, and it is basically gone now.

3). Worst guard core I can remember. I am stunned by Melson...stunned. Saw him play lots in high school and can't believe he is the same player. eMac isn't guarded at all, and KD just won't drive the gap and go to the hoop. Alberts seems perfectly content to disappear. Perkins shows flashes, but for me has too much flash in his game and not enough effectiveness. It just kills me that Payton Pritchard chose Oregon...perfect guard for us.

4). I think it will be a major accomplishment if we can make the tournament. Margin for error is just too thin...I expect several more losses.

Rough season.

Zags11
01-15-2016, 01:15 AM
And Perkins will have his moments.. But he'll never be on that Santangelo/Dickau/Stepp or even Pangos level

Is he a senior? Or soph?

Zags11
01-15-2016, 01:21 AM
This is a rough season but I think we win 24+ GMs still. I still think we make the tournament. Do we go far? No. It is what it is. I doubt most of our back courts as sophomores could of shouldered the load if their star center went down. I really don't.

Zag79
01-15-2016, 02:12 AM
Glad I was watching another game. Disappointing to cough up a double digit second half lead. So this is what happens when you have a 2 man team and one of them barely plays due to foul trouble. Wiltjer maybe should've passed the ball on that last possession rather than force a tough shot against a triple team? Would've been nice if he hit his 2nd free throw right before that.

Bingo. The trash calls on Sabonis were what killed us, he had 5 points and both times he had to sit BYU made its runs. The guards haven't been good at times, but you went from Bell and Pangos to guys that are essentially freshman trying to lead a team. It's taking more time than we thought, simply because Karno is out. This team and the backcourt looked great before the big man went down, without him the depth up front is terrible. The guards will improve, Sabonis won't sit half the game and score 5 in mot games. Not to mention, many of our favorite Zags teams would've/couple lost to all the teams this squad has. Not worried, just need to give it time.

ZagNation
01-15-2016, 02:27 AM
BYU joins in.

http://www.cougarboard.com/board/message.html?id=15303833

Birddog
01-15-2016, 05:37 AM
I'm unsure how anyone could ever say Wiltjer gives 110%. I watched in disgust on one play tonight as he got outmuscled and missed a close shot on offense and then slowly moped back up court as his man got an and-1. (not the first time I've seen this) As great as his offense can be, and as bad as our guards can look - I find myself more angry with his softness and lack of effort at times than with the guard play. Also, if you go back to the BYU run that cost us our lead, the defensive lapses and turnovers hurt more than anything. Although, I never remember seeing such ugly Zag offense in my life.

I guess you missed it when the announcers said that Wiltjer hasn't practiced with the team in almost 2 weeks because of a foot injury. Give him some slack. He is only suiting up for games. GU is masking some injuries and has a very thin bench. Yes it sucked to lose esp to BYU who I dislike immensely.

Zaga
01-15-2016, 06:39 AM
Perkins passing? No. Just no. Go back and watch Edwards minutes. He had position each and every time he needed to on the offensive end and no one even looked to get him the ball. The entirity of our guard lineup is only capable of looking for Wiltjer or Sabonis and letting them score. They don't know what else to do if that option is not there.

I saw it too! they look like they are in panic mode!

LongIslandZagFan
01-15-2016, 06:55 AM
You know... there was a time where the Zags lost games. Expecting a 2-3 loss season every year borders on silly.

23-11... that was a team with Heytvelt, Downs, Bouldin, Ravio, and Pendo. Had losses against LMU and Santa Clara.

25-10... that was a team with 2 NBA players (Olynk and Sacre) along with Harris, Dower and Gray. They had 5 losses before Christmas. They also had a 3 game losing streak in-conference (SCU,USF,SMC).

You want to say this team sucks... go ahead... not stopping you... but thought I'd offer a hint of perspective.

Zaglaw
01-15-2016, 07:03 AM
Is he a senior? Or soph?

He's a freshman (redshirt).

DixieZag
01-15-2016, 07:06 AM
And on a more positive note. Still no bad losses. Losing to BYU at home is not a bad loss, imo. We are still tied for first place with BYU and St Mary's. That's good too. Winning the conference, imo, is ALWAYS important. It's still a good goal, and the Zags will be fighting for it, and giving everything they can. The Zags will always have a chance of winning if they continue to play good D. Nothing wrong with the D tonight. We did get out rebounded, but only because Sabonis played very little.

Go Zags!!!

All that being true, the trouble is there's no reason to think that there isn't going to be big continuing trouble down the road, there's no reason to think this team won't have 5-6 losses in conference left. Consider, we got pretty lucky at USF.

thespywhozaggedme
01-15-2016, 07:09 AM
Is he a senior? Or soph?

Redshirt freshman

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 07:10 AM
One question: How come Few is Teflon on this performance? Not one post this morning anywhere on this board that takes him to task in any meaningful way. Just asking.

thespywhozaggedme
01-15-2016, 07:14 AM
BYU joins in.

http://www.cougarboard.com/board/message.html?id=15303833

It's not just us, everyone recognizes our guard situation. Their board format stinks but it was a good read

SWZag
01-15-2016, 07:15 AM
Immature thread. Didn't read it other than the title. Sad we have such people in our fan base. Absolutely shameful.

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 07:19 AM
It's not just us, everyone recognizes our guard situation. Their board format stinks but it was a good read

Quite an excellent thread. Very good analysis.

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 07:32 AM
One question: How come Few is Teflon on this performance? Not one post this morning anywhere on this board that takes him to task in any meaningful way. Just asking.

Because most are not trolls passing themselves off as fans.

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 07:33 AM
Miss You Like Crazy.


http://media.spokesman.com/picture_story_item_images/SRX_10338_t940.jpg?e9219e083a78a4429a18d28d8a24b72 ce48bf775


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=a5MKk53m1qI

Just Brilliant did this trio not lose to BYU last year at home?

Zagceo
01-15-2016, 07:35 AM
Whats your opinion Jazz?

strikenowhere
01-15-2016, 07:36 AM
I think a lot of the frustration (at least from me) stems from the total dichotomy that exists on this team...how can we have two mid-season Wooden Award candidates in our front court, yet have SWAC-quality guards in the backcourt? Guard recruiting was a big whiff to arrive at this point it seems. There is only so much coaching that the staff can do and if its gotten to the point where they only trust Wiltjer & Sabonis this late into the season then you have to think that is what happened.

Birddog
01-15-2016, 07:39 AM
To be fair, nobody has confidence in Edwards because he's been awful, and missed another easy lay up tonight.

If you want to run the offense through Edwards when he's in the game, expect a scoring drought

To be fair, he probably hit a higher % of his shots at the rim than Wiltjer did. Edwards was open a bunch and was missed. On one play he was rolling down the lane and nobody was within 10 feet and Perkins (I think) didn't see him. I was screaming at the TV on that one.

Zaga
01-15-2016, 07:40 AM
One question: How come Few is Teflon on this performance? Not one post this morning anywhere on this board that takes him to task in any meaningful way. Just asking.

Without stating the obvious Jazz, it all lands on Few to adapt, improvise and overcome the obstacles in front of this team. All the preparedness in the world does nothing if players cannot execute his plan and adapt to change. MF has always been slow to adapt imho! Go Zags!

strikenowhere
01-15-2016, 07:49 AM
Without stating the obvious Jazz, it all lands on Few to adapt, improvise and overcome the obstacles in front of this team. All the preparedness in the world does nothing if players cannot execute his plan and adapt to change. MF has always been slow to adapt imho! Go Zags!

I don't buy that - its the players that are the problem, not the coaches. You need talent to be able to execute. If you can't take (let alone hit) an open shot when presented, how is that the fault of Few & staff? How many open looks did the guards pass up to dump it down low?

WallaWallaZag
01-15-2016, 07:54 AM
I don't buy that - its the players that are the problem, not the coaches. You need talent to be able to execute. If you can't take (let alone hit) an open shot when presented, how is that the fault of Few & staff? How many open looks did the guards pass up to dump it down low?

agree to a point...but it is my opinion that few & staff are part of the reason a guy like melson has completely lost confidence...they have a hard time reigning in a player and getting them to play zag style without killing a guy's confidence...have to be super tough guy like pargo to eventually fight through it and make it work.

MileHigh
01-15-2016, 08:01 AM
and Perkins i dont view as a very good guard. None of them can shoot consistently or at all, none can run a team which is crucial for a PG, and they all turn the ball over more than some of these high school women's basketball games i watch.

....statements like this are just pure idiocy. Perkins stats in conference games are as
follows:

3 pt shooting--58% (1st in WCC)
fg %-----------53% (8th in WCC)
Scoring avg---14 pts per game (14th in WCC)
Assist avg-----4.6 per game (8th in WCC)
steals----------1.3 per game (4th in WCC)
ass/TO ratio---2.9 (4th in WCC)



Also,keep in mind that the staff has absolutely handcuffed Josh in terms of what they will"allow" him to do on the court. Can't look to score early in shot clock, not allowed to initiate transition, not allowed to take open threes until Wiltjer or Sabonis has made a touch in the post. Gonzaga has not run one play out of a timeout this year for a player other than Sabonis or Wiltjer. NOT ONE!

He's a team guy and loves his teammates so he does what the coaches instruct him to do......but this is not how he was told Gonzaga was going to play when he was recruited

GUfan34
01-15-2016, 08:04 AM
If only stats told the whole story, with Perkins, Sabonis, and Wiltjer, we'd be unbeatable


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 08:07 AM
If we had Pangos, Wesley, and Bell last night we would have done last night I mean look at what they did last year at home vs BYU
RESULT MIN FG 3PT FT OREB DREB TOT AST PF BLK STL TO PTS
Pangos 02/28 vs. L 70-73 39 3-12 2-5 0-0 0 3 3 5 3 0 4 2 8
Bell 02/28 vs. Brigham Young L 70-73 23 1-4 1-3 0-0 0 1 1 2 4 0 2 0 3
Wesley 02/28 vs L 70-73 28 6-9 0-0 5-7 1 8 9 1 4 0 1 3 17
The sainted trio of seniors outscored our current guards "who suck" bu 6 points. Funny I don't recall many our guards suck posts after last years game.

MileHigh
01-15-2016, 08:12 AM
I think a lot of the frustration (at least from me) stems from the total dichotomy that exists on this team...how can we have two mid-season Wooden Award candidates in our front court, yet have SWAC-quality guards in the backcourt? Guard recruiting was a big whiff to arrive at this point it seems. There is only so much coaching that the staff can do and if its gotten to the point where they only trust Wiltjer & Sabonis this late into the season then you have to think that is what happened.

"SWAC quality"

I don't know exactly how to interpret that, but I will bite my tongue and assume that the ethnicity of SWAC players and Gonzaga's starting guards is purely coincidental in your comparison

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 08:13 AM
"SWAC quality"

I don't know exactly how to interpret that, but I will bite my tongue and assume that the ethnicity of SWAC players and Gonzaga's starting guards is purely coincidental in your comparison

Whoa, Mile......I think you're off base......

strikenowhere
01-15-2016, 08:16 AM
If we had Pangos, Wesley, and Bell last night we would have done last night I mean look at what they did last year at home vs BYU
RESULT MIN FG 3PT FT OREB DREB TOT AST PF BLK STL TO PTS
Pangos 02/28 vs. L 70-73 39 3-12 2-5 0-0 0 3 3 5 3 0 4 2 8
Bell 02/28 vs. Brigham Young L 70-73 23 1-4 1-3 0-0 0 1 1 2 4 0 2 0 3
Wesley 02/28 vs L 70-73 28 6-9 0-0 5-7 1 8 9 1 4 0 1 3 17
The sainted trio of seniors outscored our current guards "who suck" bu 6 points. Funny I don't recall many our guards suck posts after last years game.

6 points would have been enough to win last night's game.

Zagceo
01-15-2016, 08:19 AM
"SWAC quality"

I don't know exactly how to interpret that, but I will bite my tongue and assume that the ethnicity of SWAC players and Gonzaga's starting guards is purely coincidental in your comparison

Really?

strikenowhere
01-15-2016, 08:20 AM
"SWAC quality"

I don't know exactly how to interpret that, but I will bite my tongue and assume that the ethnicity of SWAC players and Gonzaga's starting guards is purely coincidental in your comparison

Yeah you need to keep biting your tongue there.

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 08:20 AM
Because most are not trolls passing themselves off as fans.

Now that's one answer?

LongIslandZagFan
01-15-2016, 08:22 AM
6 points would have been enough to win last night's game.

You do get that those 6 points were PART of last night's loss, right?

bartruff1
01-15-2016, 08:24 AM
....statements like this are just pure idiocy. Perkins stats in conference games are as
follows:

3 pt shooting--58% (1st in WCC)
fg %-----------53% (8th in WCC)
Scoring avg---14 pts per game (14th in WCC)
Assist avg-----4.6 per game (8th in WCC)
steals----------1.3 per game (4th in WCC)
ass/TO ratio---2.9 (4th in WCC)



Also,keep in mind that the staff has absolutely handcuffed Josh in terms of what they will"allow" him to do on the court. Can't look to score early in shot clock, not allowed to initiate transition, not allowed to take open threes until Wiltjer or Sabonis has made a touch in the post. Gonzaga has not run one play out of a timeout this year for a player other than Sabonis or Wiltjer. NOT ONE!

He's a team guy and loves his teammates so he does what the coaches instruct him to do......but this is not how he was told Gonzaga was going to play when he was recruited


Well, he might be happier some place else...... and play for a coach that appreciates his talents...certainly something to think about.

If he was lied to, and handcuffed that should be the end of it.

Schmitty
01-15-2016, 08:27 AM
Is there a reason Sabonis would come back?

Where would he be going? Home?

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 08:28 AM
6 points would have been enough to win last night's game.

Sorry you did not understand the point. How would you like me to explain it to you with crayons or cartoon drawings? Anyway I will type slow so you can keep up. The OP says the guards suck, your in depth analysis is that they are SWAC quality, many other opine for the good old days of Pangos and Bell...yet when you look at the last time they that trio played BYU they (except for Wesley) did not play any better than our guards played last night....yet nobody was calling for their heads or stating that Few and company had failed with guard recruiting as your simplistic post stated. We win the game last night if Sabonis hits half his scoring average. Is Sabonis in your expert opinion SWAC quality?

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 08:29 AM
Sorry you did not understand the point. How would you like me to explain it to you with crayons or cartoon drawings? Anyway I will type slow so you can keep up. The OP says the guards suck, your in depth analysis is that they are SWAC quality, many other opine for the good old days of Pangos and Bell...yet when you look at the last time they that trio played BYU they (except for Wesley) did not play any better than our guards played last night....yet nobody was calling for their heads or stating that Few and company had failed with guard recruiting as your simplistic post stated. We win the game last night if Sabonis hits half his scoring average. Is Sabonis in your expert opinion SWAC quality?

OK, make sure your spell "reins" right, superstar. PS: Mile was the author of the SWAC slur.

MileHigh
01-15-2016, 08:30 AM
Yeah you need to keep biting your tongue there.

Like I said....I gave you the benefit of the doubt....it just struck me as odd that out of all the lowly conferences in the country you picked the one HBC conference as your comparison point.

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 08:32 AM
Like I said....I gave you the benefit of the doubt....it just struck me as odd that out of all the lowly conferences in the country you picked the one HBC conference as your comparison point.

Nonsense, Mile. You sought to make a point and you did. Resoundingly. Now live with it.....

bartruff1
01-15-2016, 08:35 AM
I don't buy that - its the players that are the problem, not the coaches. You need talent to be able to execute. If you can't take (let alone hit) an open shot when presented, how is that the fault of Few & staff? How many open looks did the guards pass up to dump it down low?

Well, if he is telling them to go out there and shoot 23%...... he should be fired....that will not win many games and he gets paid to win games..

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 08:39 AM
OK, make sure your spell "reins" right, superstar. PS: Mile was the author of the SWAC slur.

Thanks for the proof read but if you are going to troll I hope you have more than that (like your brilliant prediction that the HBO series was being cancelled). Also during your proof read you should have done some research and you would have noticed that Strike was the person who posted as to the SWAC quality. Posted below to make it easier on you. Thanks for playing though.

orginally Posted by strikenowhere View Post
I think a lot of the frustration (at least from me) stems from the total dichotomy that exists on this team...how can we have two mid-season Wooden Award candidates in our front court, yet have SWAC-quality guards in the backcourt? Guard recruiting was a big whiff to arrive at this point it seems. There is only so much coaching that the staff can do and if its gotten to the point where they only trust Wiltjer & Sabonis this late into the season then you have to think that is what happened.

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 08:41 AM
Nonsense, Mile. You sought to make a point and you did. Resoundingly. Now live with it.....

Sure listen to Jazz. All you need to do is say something completely out of line and then defend it by saying you were just being critical.

WallaWallaZag
01-15-2016, 08:41 AM
Well, if he is telling them to go out there and shoot 23%...... he should be fired....that will not win many games and he gets paid to win games..

emac isn't a very good shooter, but i will say he's gotten bit unlucky as i've seen a lot of his three's rattle in and out recently. at least he's taking them...you have to if they're leaving you that wide open.

strikenowhere
01-15-2016, 08:42 AM
Well, if he is telling them to go out there and shoot 23%...... he should be fired....that will not win many games and he gets paid to win games..

Yeah that's a good point.

bballbeachbum
01-15-2016, 08:42 AM
thought Edwards had his best minutes of the year so far, not amazing but his best minutes yet imo. Domas with only 21 mins and least effective game of the year in a big one at home is unfortunate. Zags almost pulled it out anyway without his typical contributions. But once Collinsworth got the steal and dunk early in the second half, he got loose. He yelled at the crowd after the dunk, and he played like the older more mature player he is out there after that. still thought the Zags did a good job on him, very good defensive game plan overall imo.

Domas will need to stay on the floor in these games when teams TRY to get him fouls...that's the game plan for teams, especially like a Rose coached BYU team. Expect all the gamey tricks...that's how Rose played, that's how his teams play, that's how other teams will play Domas. Domas has been great at it this year but not last night, notwithstanding that Austin flop called a charge on Domas

MileHigh
01-15-2016, 08:44 AM
Well, he might be happier some place else...... and play for a coach that appreciates his talents...certainly something to think about.

If he was lied to, and handcuffed that should be the end of it.

I am not saying Few lied at all. Few has simply gone away from his normal guard oriented approach (which was one of his recruiting selling points) to take advantage of the outstanding big's he has this year, nothing wrong with that. My point was that this type of basketball is not the type that fully takes advantage of a guard who loves to dribble drive to create for himself and his teammates, so Josh is struggling a bit getting used to that role.

Your suggestion that he transfer is just ridiculous.....

.

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 08:44 AM
Thanks for the proof read but if you are going to troll I hope you have more than that (like your brilliant prediction that the HBO series was being cancelled). Also during your proof read you should have done some research and you would have noticed that Strike was the person who posted as to the SWAC quality. Posted below to make it easier on you. Thanks for playing though.

orginally Posted by strikenowhere View Post
I think a lot of the frustration (at least from me) stems from the total dichotomy that exists on this team...how can we have two mid-season Wooden Award candidates in our front court, yet have SWAC-quality guards in the backcourt? Guard recruiting was a big whiff to arrive at this point it seems. There is only so much coaching that the staff can do and if its gotten to the point where they only trust Wiltjer & Sabonis this late into the season then you have to think that is what happened.

Genius....this is the offensive retort from MILE that is being discussed.

"SWAC quality"

I don't know exactly how to interpret that, but I will bite my tongue and assume that the ethnicity of SWAC players and Gonzaga's starting guards is purely coincidental in your comparison

bballbeachbum
01-15-2016, 08:52 AM
as for identifying the 'problem' as many seem to be attempting, for me it's the inability to yet successfully have the perfect new recipe without Karno out there. his loss is a big problem in many ways, and in last night's game, Domas played only 21 minutes and scored 5 points and went to the line only one time (let that crazy stat sink in from a physical contest)

strikenowhere
01-15-2016, 08:53 AM
I am not saying Few lied at all. Few has simply gone away from his normal guard oriented approach (which was one of his recruiting selling points) to take advantage of the outstanding big's he has this year, nothing wrong with that. My point was that this type of basketball is not the type that fully takes advantage of a guard who loves to dribble drive to create for himself and his teammates, so Josh is struggling a bit getting used to that role.

Your suggestion that he transfer is just ridiculous.....

.

Perkins is the lone bright spot amongst the guards and he has shown that he can improve. He certainly didn't have his best game last night, but he did shoot free-throws better. The disappointment stems from the rest of the guards. I think the restraint that you are referring to is basically due to the fact that he's a redshirt freshman that was thrust into a starting role without the benefit of playing behind Pangos for a whole year. I would expect that next year things will be much more loose as he gets more comfortable running the system.

strikenowhere
01-15-2016, 08:54 AM
as for identifying the 'problem' as many seem to be attempting, for me it's the inability to yet successfully have the perfect new recipe without Karno out there. his loss is a big problem in many ways, and in last night's game, Domas played only 21 minutes and scored 5 points and went to the line only one time (let that crazy stat sink in from a physical contest)

Yeah that is certainly a head-scratcher....for a guy that is a very physical player, how could he not get more calls down low? I don't think its his doing, they just aren't getting called.

GUfan34
01-15-2016, 08:56 AM
Now we are blaming the refs for home losses? LOL so embarrassing

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 08:56 AM
Genius....this is the offensive retort from MILE that is being discussed.

"SWAC quality"

I don't know exactly how to interpret that, but I will bite my tongue and assume that the ethnicity of SWAC players and Gonzaga's starting guards is purely coincidental in your comparison

Swell that was not what I was talking about. Mile's post went a totally another direction. I was speaking to Strike's claim regarding the quality of the guards and Few's recruiting.I even put the post I was referring to. I really could not have made it easier for you to figure out what I was speaking about so if you can't connect the dots I really do not know how to help you on this, so I guess you will just keep on trolling.

bballbeachbum
01-15-2016, 08:57 AM
Yeah that is certainly a head-scratcher....for a guy that is a very physical player, how could he not get more calls down low? I don't think its his doing, they just aren't getting called.

Rose also forced Domas to go over his left shoulder on 2-3 of his grand total of 6 shots and while he's improved in that area he's not as physical going that way yet

bballbeachbum
01-15-2016, 08:58 AM
Now we are blaming the refs for home losses? LOL so embarrassing

not me dude...careful with the 'we' word please, ok?

strikenowhere
01-15-2016, 08:59 AM
Sorry you did not understand the point. How would you like me to explain it to you with crayons or cartoon drawings? Anyway I will type slow so you can keep up. The OP says the guards suck, your in depth analysis is that they are SWAC quality, many other opine for the good old days of Pangos and Bell...yet when you look at the last time they that trio played BYU they (except for Wesley) did not play any better than our guards played last night....yet nobody was calling for their heads or stating that Few and company had failed with guard recruiting as your simplistic post stated. We win the game last night if Sabonis hits half his scoring average. Is Sabonis in your expert opinion SWAC quality?

No need for the personal nastiness here. All I was stating was that they could have used the extra 6 points last night to win the game.

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 09:02 AM
No need for the personal nastiness here. All I was stating was that they could have used the extra 6 points last night to win the game.

Nastiness is Van's stock in trade, unfortunately. He is somewhat less incoherent when he drops the j/a routine.

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 09:03 AM
No need for the personal nastiness here. All I was stating was that they could have used the extra 6 points last night to win the game.

So OK to take shots at the players and staff but you are off limits?

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 09:03 AM
Swell that was not what I was talking about. Mile's post went a totally another direction. I was speaking to Strike's claim regarding the quality of the guards and Few's recruiting.I even put the post I was referring to. I really could not have made it easier for you to figure out what I was speaking about so if you can't connect the dots I really do not know how to help you on this, so I guess you will just keep on trolling.

Your obsession with crayons, dots, etc. is a bit troubling, I must say.

LongIslandZagFan
01-15-2016, 09:04 AM
No need for the personal nastiness here. All I was stating was that they could have used the extra 6 points last night to win the game.

Again... you are missing the fact that what he is pointing out is that LAST NIGHT our guards outscored Pangos/Bell/Wesley by 6. There is NO 6 extra points to have in the comparison... in fact it would have equated to a worse loss.

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 09:07 AM
Your obsession with crayons, dots, etc. is a bit troubling, I must say.

Just trying to keep it simple for you but I am failing. I really do not know how to make it easier for you to understand.

strikenowhere
01-15-2016, 09:08 AM
Again... you are missing the fact that what he is pointing out is that LAST NIGHT our guards outscored Pangos/Bell/Wesley by 6. There is NO 6 extra points to have in the comparison... in fact it would have equated to a worse loss.

Hey LIZF, that's incorrect - the guards last night scored 22 points total. Pangos, Bell, & Wesley scored 28 last year:

Loss last year 73-70 (http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400587360)

Loss this year 69-68 (http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400830168)

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 09:09 AM
Delete

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 09:09 AM
Just trying to keep it simple for you but I am failing. I really do not know how to make it easier for you to understand.

I follow you fine. Just when you resort to such puerile things, well, that's unsettling.

strikenowhere
01-15-2016, 09:15 AM
So OK to take shots at the players and staff but you are off limits?

Hmmm....did I insult the players/coaches mental faculties, make fun of their looks, talk bad about their parents, diss their girlfriends/wives, etc.? No. Repeated BASKETBALL-RELATED observations this year have led me to the statements I made. You want to say I went over the top in my comparison to SWAC-quality OF BASKETBALL PLAY that is fair, it probably was a little overdramatic. Do I have every right to question the recruiting that has led up to current state of the team? Absolutely. But at no time did I skew outside the confines of BASKETBALL. You need to stop looking for a fight where there isn't one.

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 09:21 AM
I follow you fine. Just when you resort to such puerile things, well, that's unsettling.

So you chime in and are referring to something that is completely off base and not to the point (and calling names). Your are then told you are wrong and fail to acknowledge it and I am the unsettling one. Sounds quite logical.

GUfan34
01-15-2016, 09:23 AM
So the guards had an off game against BYU last year.

Was never a trend

This group? It's a trend

WallaWallaZag
01-15-2016, 09:26 AM
So the guards had an off game against BYU last year.

Was never a trend

This group? It's a trend

last year was senior night...and league was wrapped up long ago. zags fighting for their lives this year it feels like...and already 2 games lost at home that should have been w's...not similar at all other than the result.

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 09:28 AM
So you chime in and are referring to something that is completely off base and not to the point (and calling names). Your are then told you are wrong and fail to acknowledge it and I am the unsettling one. Sounds quite logical.

Gibberish. No idea what that comment is trying to say. Like six negatives embedded in there. Van, you're starting to bore me. Going to have some breakfast. Cheers.

LongIslandZagFan
01-15-2016, 09:37 AM
last year was senior night...and league was wrapped up long ago. zags fighting for their lives this year it feels like...and already 2 games lost at home that should have been w's...not similar at all other than the result.

So... just trying to understand this. It is OK for a team to just mail it in... on senior night? Because that is what you are implying that they did.

bartruff1
01-15-2016, 09:44 AM
I am not saying Few lied at all. Few has simply gone away from his normal guard oriented approach (which was one of his recruiting selling points) to take advantage of the outstanding big's he has this year, nothing wrong with that. My point was that this type of basketball is not the type that fully takes advantage of a guard who loves to dribble drive to create for himself and his teammates, so Josh is struggling a bit getting used to that role.

Your suggestion that he transfer is just ridiculous.....

.

I have no idea what he was told, but if he was misled, that is pretty close to a lie to me.

Now, in the first place, I never suggested that he should leave, only that he should consider transferring to a college that better suits his talents. I don't know why that is ridiculous.

I am sure there are some players, but I can't think of any, that made a mistake by leaving Gonzaga, but most had great success....three that come to mind are Meech, Spangler, and Gibbs.

I just want him to make the best choice for him , as these youngsters have a very short time to take advantage of their skills.

GUfan34
01-15-2016, 09:47 AM
Why are people talking about last year?

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 09:57 AM
I have no idea what he was told, but if he was misled, that is pretty close to a lie to me.

Now, in the first place, I never suggested that he should leave, only that he should consider transferring to a college that better suits his talents. I don't know why that is ridiculous.

I am sure there are some players, but I can't think of any, that made a mistake by leaving Gonzaga, but most had great success....three that come to mind are Meech, Spangler, and Gibbs.

I just want him to make the best choice for him , as these youngsters have a very short time to take advantage of their skills.


I am not saying Few lied at all. Few has simply gone away from his normal guard oriented approach (which was one of his recruiting selling points) to take advantage of the outstanding big's he has this year, nothing wrong with that. My point was that this type of basketball is not the type that fully takes advantage of a guard who loves to dribble drive to create for himself and his teammates, so Josh is struggling a bit getting used to that role.

Your suggestion that he transfer is just ridiculous.....

.

11 points 7 assist 6 boards and only 2 turnovers. Not All American numbers but would not qualify that as struggling. I think the current "struggle" with Josh is when he defers to KW too much, hard to blame him when KW is putting in 30 points. But it is hard for him to dribble and create when the ball goes in and stops in KW hands. His early issues were decision making and trying to do too much. He has settled down and is doing what he is supposed to do. Now as to your earlier post where he was mislead during recruiting do you have actual knowledge that Few told him one thing and did another or are you just guessing (or reading minds like some others like to do)?

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 10:04 AM
I have no idea what he was told, but if he was misled, that is pretty close to a lie to me.

Now, in the first place, I never suggested that he should leave, only that he should consider transferring to a college that better suits his talents. I don't know why that is ridiculous.

I am sure there are some players, but I can't think of any, that made a mistake by leaving Gonzaga, but most had great success....three that come to mind are Meech, Spangler, and Gibbs.

I just want him to make the best choice for him , as these youngsters have a very short time to take advantage of their skills.


Why are people talking about last year?

See what happens is a post is made that states these guards suck. A few more posts are made saying how much they miss last years guards. Then somebody brings ups the fact that last years guards did not produce in the same game last year and the team lost as well. Which is amplified by the fact that they were game tested and decorated players. Those same players bounced back to make a nice little run in both the WCC and the NCAA tourney. So what you would take away from studying past results is that maybe just maybe last nights loss was not the end of days and we should not define the current guards with the word "suck".

gonstu
01-15-2016, 10:09 AM
Perkins is solid and improving - he has potential to be all conference and more. He cannot be lumped into the rest of the disappointing guard play. I love Few, but above post seems to make sense - tell guards everything goes through KW and DS first. On the one hand, it makes sense - get your best players the ball. On the other hand, if it leads to timid, tentative, lack of confidence in the guards - well, that is the downside.

Losing stinks and doesn't feel good. If I'm just a fan and feel awful after this loss, I'm sure coaches and players feel even worse - so I feel for them.

MileHigh
01-15-2016, 10:22 AM
11 points 7 assist 6 boards and only 2 turnovers. Not All American numbers but would not qualify that as struggling. I think the current "struggle" with Josh is when he defers to KW too much, hard to blame him when KW is putting in 30 points. But it is hard for him to dribble and create when the ball goes in and stops in KW hands. His early issues were decision making and trying to do too much. He has settled down and is doing what he is supposed to do. Now as to your earlier post where he was mislead during recruiting do you have actual knowledge that Few told him one thing and did another or are you just guessing (or reading minds like some others like to do)?

...I am not even saying JP was mislead. When he was being recruited I don't think anyone (including Few) imagined Wiltjer and Sabonis being the 1-2 punch that they are. Few is just trying to coach to his personnel, which is what a good coach does . JP and the other guards were just sort of victims of circumstance. Also, staff has made it clear that next season JP and the other guards will be asked to score more.

...and yes I do have actual knowledge of the specifics during JP's recruitment. I have not tried to hide the fact that I am very close to him and his family.

HenneZag
01-15-2016, 10:32 AM
I was at the game last night and it was frustrating to say the least, had to sit behind a few BYU fans so that was unfortunate. I didn't read all of the comments here so I will just state my frustrations.

Our guards are struggling as a whole yes! Do they suck no. Perkins had a decent stat line, a cpl ill advised turnovers for sure. Right now we have no flow at all, we have one plan in mind and last night it failed. We cant rely on Wiltjer and Sabonis every game to produce for us it will bite us several more time moving forward. They played Sabonis to perfection IMO. I miss the days of slinging the ball around, watching the flow, creativity and chemistry, this year we just dont have that.

Emac had a cpl in and outs and Melson cant find any rhythm just the same song and dance for him. Alberts starts the game plays limited minutes and attempts a shot or two. I'm still kind of scratching my head with this team. We have talent, just can find any flow within this group.

The blown 2nd half leads are absolutely ridiculous. I don't want to count how many games we have had with 10-20 pt leads and we give them away. I don't want to blame Few here as the players have to make the shots and play the scheme. With that said, Few is the coach and some ownership needs to fall on him. We play not to lose, we need to play to win. Let these guys play at this point! You can see the severe lack of confidence in several players out there and it won't change, they have the ball and run around and find another guy who is just as confused to throw the ball to kind of like musical chairs.

Karnowski is a huge loss for this team. His presence in the paint, passing and defense abilities are severely missed. I don't want to freak out yet we have been down as a fan base before and the boys have bounced back nicely. We have little room for error this year and is looking like a WCC conference tournament win may be the only shot baring we cant win the WCC or beat SMU.

sittingon50
01-15-2016, 10:35 AM
If you can't say something nice about someone....

Go Hawks!

Zags11
01-15-2016, 10:35 AM
He's a freshman (redshirt).

Sorry it was sarcasm.

GUfan34
01-15-2016, 10:38 AM
See what happens is a post is made that states these guards suck. A few more posts are made saying how much they miss last years guards. Then somebody brings ups the fact that last years guards did not produce in the same game last year and the team lost as well. Which is amplified by the fact that they were game tested and decorated players. Those same players bounced back to make a nice little run in both the WCC and the NCAA tourney. So what you would take away from studying past results is that maybe just maybe last nights loss was not the end of days and we should not define the current guards with the word "suck".

I don't care if last years guards score 0 points and had 30 turnovers...

You can't use that as a measuring stick to how far these guards will take us in March

There is nothing more irrelevant than comparing what last years team did at home against BYU and what this years team did and then connecting that to what the tournament may bring... I don't get it

ProjectMKUltra5
01-15-2016, 10:41 AM
I am not saying Few lied at all. Few has simply gone away from his normal guard oriented approach (which was one of his recruiting selling points) to take advantage of the outstanding big's he has this year, nothing wrong with that. My point was that this type of basketball is not the type that fully takes advantage of a guard who loves to dribble drive to create for himself and his teammates, so Josh is struggling a bit getting used to that role.

Your suggestion that he transfer is just ridiculous.....

.

This can't be said enough. The guards are fighting for scraps while the bigs get to eat all game, is it any wonder why they're not producing?

Zags11
01-15-2016, 10:43 AM
It also isn't fair to measure these guards to a senior ridden 4 year starters team either. I'm speaking solely on Perkins and melson. Bell and pangos as much I loved them wouldn't of done much more without their star center. People should be eating crow on this board. Karno was the key to this run. Maybe people on here will learn with a foot in their mouth.

Mr Vulture
01-15-2016, 10:52 AM
Typical meltdown thread after a loss...get some perspective! This team, while not our best, is still a good team. We lack depth across the board and we limited guys ready to play at this level from the guard spot. However, we've been in every game and very easily could have an undefeated record. I, as many, are disappointed in the play of Melson and Alberts but they are young guys.

In the end, it's only one game. Look at WSU Football this year...they lost at home to Portland State to start the year but kept on working and they ended up winning 9 games and Top 25 ranking.

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 11:02 AM
Few things:

1. Bryan and Silas are not proving to be right for this program. Right now, the bench (Alberts, Melson, Edwards) has three guys who need to consider transferring out, next season.

2. Last night was actually the best game we have played, defensively, in conference.

3. Domas did not contribute the way we are used to on the offensive end, and whether or not all the fouls called against him were legit, foul trouble kept him off the floor.

As far as Josh goes, he had a really good game last night. 3-1 AST/TO ratio with 7 rebounds and 11 points? I think I'll take that. If Sabonis shows up, we handle this game. We're talking about how comfortably we won this game, instead of discussing how we lost.

At one point, we were winning the turnover battle, in terms of points off turnovers. And we very much won the free throw game, getting to the line 10 more times and posting an 83% clip. That's how a team like Gonzaga wins tournament games. It's interesting to see the pace we had, as well. It would be interesting to see what our average amount of possessions per game is when we are more offensively successful?

This is a team that is big-centric and doesn't score a ton from the guard and wing, so when a team like BYU shoots a dismal percentage and volume from 3, it's best not to try and push the offense in ways that hurt our efficiency and give the opponent a chance to make up for lost opportunities via defensive rebounds and points chances off turnovers.

If Domas is in short supply, and we have a team shooting horribly from 3, the best bet is to slow things down, work our sets, and maximize our possessions.

Watching last night was tough. I hate losing to BYU. I have concerns about this team. But all in all? They're actually still just a few tweaks from taking this conference handily.

GUfan34
01-15-2016, 11:07 AM
It also isn't fair to measure these guards to a senior ridden 4 year starters team either. I'm speaking solely on Perkins and melson. Bell and pangos as much I loved them wouldn't of done much more without their star center. People should be eating crow on this board. Karno was the key to this run. Maybe people on here will learn with a foot in their mouth.


Huh?

Pangos and Bell never played with a front court as loaded as Wiltjer/Sabonis

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 11:08 AM
It also isn't fair to measure these guards to a senior ridden 4 year starters team either. I'm speaking solely on Perkins and melson. Bell and pangos as much I loved them wouldn't of done much more without their star center. People should be eating crow on this board. Karno was the key to this run. Maybe people on here will learn with a foot in their mouth.

Naw, disagree. Bell and Pangos were far and away better talent, even from the get go. Silas and Bryan are turning out to be "Keita and Arop". It happens. And whether or not it is fair, Josh is coming along and we have a former AA who will be in the rotation next season, along with Zack Norvell. There just isn't room for guys to not show up, at this point. Especially, if the recruiting we saw from the staff this year is going to be the bench mark, moving forward. It is what it is.

strikenowhere
01-15-2016, 11:09 AM
Huh?

Pangos and Bell never played with a front court as loaded as Wiltjer/Sabonis

wuh?

bballbeachbum
01-15-2016, 11:11 AM
regarding who gets to eat, JP and Emac took 20 shots between them...plenty of trips to the buffet, which is good imo but complete the metaphor however you'd like...they still left hungry too often (mine)

Edwards was denied the post entry many times by his teammates, not the defense, when he was open looked like to me. that's not a criticism just an observation; maybe that's what Few directed, idk

teams daring Emac, KD, Silas and Bryan to do anything on O; until they do something teams will continue to do that. Don't believe we played any 4 guard last night, did we?

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 11:18 AM
Huh?

Pangos and Bell never played with a front court as loaded as Wiltjer/Sabonis

Huh? They played with them last year and had a healthy Karno. But correct other than that they never played with them. And with that loaded from court(as well as Wesley). And with that loaded front court they combined to score a total of 11 points against BYU at home last year (you see that is how you can refer to last years results when trying to make a point about this year).

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 11:18 AM
regarding who gets to eat, JP and Emac took 20 shots between them...plenty of trips to the buffet, which is good imo but complete the metaphor however you'd like...they still left hungry too often (mine)

Edwards was denied the post entry many times by his teammates, not the defense, when he was open looked like to me. that's not a criticism just an observation; maybe that's what Few directed, idk

teams daring Emac, KD, Silas and Bryan to do anything on O; until they do something teams will continue to do that. Don't believe we played any 4 guard last night, did we?

Per your second point, I would not be surprised if Few has directed the kids not to feed Edwards very often. I would also not be surprised if not only did Few direct such, but also that his teammates just don't have confidence in him. If Ryan wants the ball, he is going to have to stop playing like a dude with dead fish for hands. If you can't handle rebounds that you just have to put your hands on, then how on earth is someone going to trust you with having the composure to handle the ball in the post?

To you third entry, I hope we don't play too much 4-guard lineup. That leaves either Domas or Wilt playing the 5 and shifting our offensive probability toward players that cannot maximize their possessions. We need our guards to really commit to playing big time defense up front, so that we have less pressure on our bigs. That, at the very least would be huge for Silas and Bryan. At least then there presence would be contributing to Sabonis staying out on the court longer.

bballbeachbum
01-15-2016, 11:21 AM
Few things:

1. Bryan and Silas are not proving to be right for this program. Right now, the bench (Alberts, Melson, Edwards) has three guys who need to consider transferring out, next season.

2. Last night was actually the best game we have played, defensively, in conference.

3. Domas did not contribute the way we are used to on the offensive end, and whether or not all the fouls called against him were legit, foul trouble kept him off the floor.

As far as Josh goes, he had a really good game last night. 3-1 AST/TO ratio with 7 rebounds and 11 points? I think I'll take that. If Sabonis shows up, we handle this game. We're talking about how comfortably we won this game, instead of discussing how we lost.

At one point, we were winning the turnover battle, in terms of points off turnovers. And we very much won the free throw game, getting to the line 10 more times and posting an 83% clip. That's how a team like Gonzaga wins tournament games. It's interesting to see the pace we had, as well. It would be interesting to see what our average amount of possessions per game is when we are more offensively successful?

This is a team that is big-centric and doesn't score a ton from the guard and wing, so when a team like BYU shoots a dismal percentage and volume from 3, it's best not to try and push the offense in ways that hurt our efficiency and give the opponent a chance to make up for lost opportunities via defensive rebounds and points chances off turnovers.

If Domas is in short supply, and we have a team shooting horribly from 3, the best bet is to slow things down, work our sets, and maximize our possessions.

Watching last night was tough. I hate losing to BYU. I have concerns about this team. But all in all? They're actually still just a few tweaks from taking this conference handily.

hey coach, I appreciate the thoughtful post, with many good points, though 'handily' seems a bit drinky for so early in the morning (j/k ok?). hopefully not true on the transfers, prefer player development myself but I get the arguments having read the board. I'm hopeful the Zags make the tourney however it happens, handily or not!

bballbeachbum
01-15-2016, 11:23 AM
Per your second point, I would not be surprised if Few has directed the kids not to feed Edwards very often. I would also not be surprised if not only did Few direct such, but also that his teammates just don't have confidence in him. If Ryan wants the ball, he is going to have to stop playing like a dude with dead fish for hands. If you can't handle rebounds that you just have to put your hands on, then how on earth is someone going to trust you with having the composure to handle the ball in the post?

To you third entry, I hope we don't play too much 4-guard lineup. That leaves either Domas or Wilt playing the 5 and shifting our offensive probability toward players that cannot maximize their possessions. We need our guards to really commit to playing big time defense up front, so that we have less pressure on our bigs. That, at the very least would be huge for Silas and Bryan. At least then there presence would be contributing to Sabonis staying out on the court longer.

the reason for #3 is a situation like last night, where Domas plays only 21 and Edwards logs 19. can't have it both ways in that situation, and I doubt it's the last time we see Domas straddled with fouls in a game let alone a big one

RenoZag
01-15-2016, 11:24 AM
Bryan and Silas are not proving to be right for this program. Right now, the bench (Alberts, Melson, Edwards) has three guys who need to consider transferring out, next season.

You throw that out there like it's no big deal. . .smh

ProjectMKUltra5
01-15-2016, 11:30 AM
You throw that out there like it's no big deal. . .smh

Some people want these kids to take advantage of their very limited time playing college basketball, not whither away for 4 years at a place above their talent level so you guys can brag about 4 year players.

LongIslandZagFan
01-15-2016, 11:31 AM
smh.

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 11:35 AM
You throw that out there like it's no big deal. . .smh

Seriously is that what the fan base is becoming?

GUfan34
01-15-2016, 11:42 AM
Huh? They played with them last year and had a healthy Karno. But correct other than that they never played with them. And with that loaded from court(as well as Wesley). And with that loaded front court they combined to score a total of 11 points against BYU at home last year (you see that is how you can refer to last years results when trying to make a point about this year).



my comment was in response to the one made about Pangos and Bell being made by their all star center..

My point is Pangos and Bell never played with a group better than what our guards have now. No excuses. Sabonis is so much better this year it completely offsets Karnowski last.
Year.

And why in the heck to people keep talking about last years game as if it's relevant..?

Pangos and Bell were proven players on teams that got a 1 seed and a 2 seed, and an elite eight.

They didn't lose 3 home games in 1 season and look like cramp all season. Using that game last year to defend this group of guards is so off base and irrelevant

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 11:47 AM
the reason for #3 is a situation like last night, where Domas plays only 21 and Edwards logs 19. can't have it both ways in that situation, and I doubt it's the last time we see Domas straddled with fouls in a game let alone a big one

As much as I don't prefer to see Edwards in the game, I would rather see him there than having a 4-guard situation.

Zags11
01-15-2016, 11:47 AM
Huh?

Pangos and Bell never played with a front court as loaded as Wiltjer/Sabonis
Oh they didn't play with wilt, sabonis,karno,Wesley last yr? Again they were upperclassmen.

2013 they had dower and karno.

2012 they had karno, olynyk and Elias Harris.

Again, bell and pangos wouldn't look like all americans either as freshman and sophomores.

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 11:47 AM
also SMH....for no particular reason, mind you, I just want to join in the dismissiveness party....

ProVeeZag
01-15-2016, 11:52 AM
In the end, it's only one game. Look at WSU Football this year...they lost at home to Portland State to start the year but kept on working and they ended up winning 9 games and Top 25 ranking.

No offense, but ... So now we're hoping for a bid to the Sun Bowl (er, NIT) and an all-expenses paid trip to El Paso (or maybe Laramie WYO)? Congrats to WSU for salvaging their FB season, but expectations for Zags are (were?) on a whole 'nother level.

hondo
01-15-2016, 11:55 AM
We have just one thing to worry about right now and that is USD tomorrow. That is all.

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 11:55 AM
No offense, but ... So now we're hoping for a bid to the Sun Bowl (er, NIT) and an all-expenses paid trip to El Paso (or maybe Laramie WYO)? Congrats to WSU for salvaging their FB season, but expectations for Zags are (were?) on a whole 'nother level.

So if KW hits his last shot and GU wins by 1 point they are all the sudden a much better team?

Zags11
01-15-2016, 11:56 AM
my comment was in response to the one made about Pangos and Bell being made by their all star center..

My point is Pangos and Bell never played with a group better than what our guards have now. No excuses. Sabonis is so much better this year it completely offsets Karnowski last.
Year.

And why in the heck to people keep talking about last years game as if it's relevant..?

Pangos and Bell were proven players on teams that got a 1 seed and a 2 seed, and an elite eight.

They didn't lose 3 home games in 1 season and look like cramp all season. Using that game last year to defend this group of guards is so off base and irrelevant

Lol. I said the all star center made them? Or did I say as lower class men they wouldn't of been able to carry the team. Let's be honest here.....this board cried about pangos no showing on the road and bell not shooting. 13 and 10 respectively in freshman year is awesome by pangos and bell. So if you take Kelly off the court, your telling me they score 20 a game?

I don't believe that for a second. Josh and melson sure looked good last year when they weren't expected the burden. Josh this year has been off and on but he is young. Its too early to say this guard unit of melson and josh suck.

Give them time to grow. We wouldn't be having this discussion if karno was playing. We would be a 1-2 loss team at most or undefeated. But what else can I say? A lot of you posted karno sucked. Nobody offering up their crow.

ProVeeZag
01-15-2016, 11:57 AM
So if KW hits his last shot and GU wins by 1 point they are all the sudden a much better team?

Not taking the bait, sorry.

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 11:59 AM
You throw that out there like it's no big deal. . .smh

Perhaps ask me questions regarding what sentiment you suppose I am using?

I know what it's like to be behind the scenes, to a certain degree. You have to have a certain amount of emotional detachment regarding these kinds of decisions. You can't have it both ways. You don't give schollies based on character alone. This is basketball...college basketball. You do have to actually win, and you do have to actually make some sort of financial sense. You cannot separate that part of the game. Can you imagine if we would have let guys that weren't going to work out try and stay here to make things happen? Few would no longer be the coach here, we would have missed some tourney's since then, our recruiting would have declined, and we'd be clamoring for something more. Or worse, some would be happy to the be little school from Spokane that sucks, but gosh darn it, we graduate em'!

We have NWG and Zack Norvell coming in next year. Both would have to purposefully not contribute to be as bad as Silas and Bryan have been this year. You also have to recruit again, it's the way the business works. If you have a program that allows inadequate players to remain around and get more respect in terms of court time and roster spots than is necessary, that's going to be a negative. We are approaching a level of recruiting and play where you just don't always get 4 years to figure it all out. The curve is too aggressive, at this point.

Plus, let's not forget, Silas and Bryan were not headliner picks. These were value picks that the staff was banking on in terms of potential development. You really aren't losing much by having these guys not work out.

If, by chance, NWG and Zack Norvell make us wish for the days of Silas and Bryan, then we have a bigger problem than Silas and Bryan.

Time for them to be thinking/discussing transferring. Unless they don't mind riding the back of the bench, being practice squad guys, and potentially giving up their schollies for more deserving players. If they don't mind that, then hey, the more merrier.

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 12:01 PM
So if KW hits his last shot and GU wins by 1 point they are all the sudden a much better team?

And if KW hits the side jumper vs Zona last year and the layup vs Dook? Pattern?

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 12:02 PM
Not taking the bait, sorry.

It's not bait, it's asking you to confirm your logical approach. Please answer the question.

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 12:04 PM
Perhaps ask me questions regarding what sentiment you suppose I am using?

I know what it's like to be behind the scenes, to a certain degree. You have to have a certain amount of emotional detachment regarding these kinds of decisions. You can't have it both ways. You don't give schollies based on character alone. This is basketball...college basketball. You do have to actually win, and you do have to actually make some sort of financial sense. You cannot separate that part of the game. Can you imagine if we would have let guys that weren't going to work out try and stay here to make things happen? Few would no longer be the coach here, we would have missed some tourney's since then, our recruiting would have declined, and we'd be clamoring for something more. Or worse, some would be happy to the be little school from Spokane that sucks, but gosh darn it, we graduate em'!

We have NWG and Zack Norvell coming in next year. Both would have to purposefully not contribute to be as bad as Silas and Bryan have been this year. You also have to recruit again, it's the way the business works. If you have a program that allows inadequate players to remain around and get more respect in terms of court time and roster spots than is necessary, that's going to be a negative. We are approaching a level of recruiting and play where you just don't always get 4 years to figure it all out. The curve is too aggressive, at this point.

Plus, let's not forget, Silas and Bryan were not headliner picks. These were value picks that the staff was banking on in terms of potential development. You really aren't losing much by having these guys not work out.

If, by chance, NWG and Zack Norvell make us wish for the days of Silas and Bryan, then we have a bigger problem than Silas and Bryan.

Time for them to be thinking/discussing transferring. Unless they don't mind riding the back of the bench, being practice squad guys, and potentially giving up their schollies for more deserving players. If they don't mind that, then hey, the more merrier.

Agree completely, but Melson was a 2 time POY in OR....and wasn't he a 4 star? Value pick? Alberts for sure......Good thing we "missed" on Spencer and Pope, two more duds.

Zags11
01-15-2016, 12:05 PM
Perkins is at 10.4 ppg and 40% from 3. So he is scoring as much if not more then bell did except bell's Jr year. Perkins is shooting it better then bell from 3 for two of his four years.

So is Perkins better then bell? Does bell suck? Im confused. I read that bell and pangos could carry this team if they were freshman. Well statistics show Perkins scores more then bell did in all but 1 year. He shoots it as well as bell too.

Carry on with opinions.

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 12:09 PM
And if KW hits the side jumper vs Zona last year and the layup vs Dook? Pattern?

. But once again not germane to the my point. This team is handle full of points from being undefeated (all games the could have won) if they pull out those wins does it make the team that much better. The team is also a handful of points from having 3 or 4 more losses, does that make them that much worse?
As to your question of I do not know of a pattern, but if you are trying to make a point please proceed.

23dpg
01-15-2016, 12:10 PM
Agree completely, but Melson was a 2 time POY in OR....and wasn't he a 4 star? Value pick? Alberts for sure......Good thing we "missed" on Spencer and Pope, two more duds.

Melson was a one time player of the year in Oregon. Also, according to ESPN, he was a 3 star recruit; 41st rated shooting guard. I expected more at this point but he wasn't a guy we stole from Arizona.

LongIslandZagFan
01-15-2016, 12:10 PM
also SMH....for no particular reason, mind you, I just want to join in the dismissiveness party....

Being disappointed at people saying three players should transfer out isn't being dismissive.

I take you agree with that sentiment? When do we round up the torches and pitchforks to run them out of town?

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 12:12 PM
Agree completely, but Melson was a 2 time POY in OR....and wasn't he a 4 star? Value pick? Alberts for sure......Good thing we "missed" on Spencer and Pope, two more duds.

Silas was a 3-star on ESPN (actually, just about everyone, if not all had him there). He was rated 2nd in the state, but 41st at his position and 31st in the region. Perhaps he is in the wrong system. It just isn't working here.

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 12:13 PM
Melson was a one time player of the year in Oregon. Also, according to ESPN, he was a 3 star recruit; 41st rated shooting guard. I expected more at this point but he wasn't a guy we stole from Arizona.

If you start throwing in actual facts it will screw up Jazz point. Please stick to the opinion and eye test as facts and leave out the real stuff.

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 12:16 PM
. But once again not germane to the my point. This team is handle full of points from being undefeated (all games the could have won) if they pull out those wins does it make the team that much better. The team is also a handful of points from having 3 or 4 more losses, does that make them that much worse?
As to your question of I do not know of a pattern, but if you are trying to make a point please proceed.

This is closer to where I am at, and why everyone needs to dive into the stats and understand a little more about basketball. They are close to doing some awesome things, and much further away, but close enough that another downturn such as an injury or whatnot (knock on wood) would very much signal an NIT appearance.

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 12:17 PM
Being disappointed at people saying three players should transfer out isn't being dismissive.

I take you agree with that sentiment? When do we round up the torches and pitchforks to run them out of town?

No, I disagree with that suggestion and that's out of bounds. But recruiting mistakes are made and kids do leave. Very often they thrive. After all, many come here. But no, I was just being generally snarky.....

jazzdelmar
01-15-2016, 12:18 PM
Melson was a one time player of the year in Oregon. Also, according to ESPN, he was a 3 star recruit; 41st rated shooting guard. I expected more at this point but he wasn't a guy we stole from Arizona.


Thanks 23....

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 12:19 PM
Being disappointed at people saying three players should transfer out isn't being dismissive.

I take you agree with that sentiment? When do we round up the torches and pitchforks to run them out of town?

So, is it dismissive and nonchalant or is it "pitchforks and torches"? I don't think you guys really have a tenable grasp on the reality of these things, and choose to see them through a lens that while genuine, is distorted. If you don't like what I am saying, you wouldn't like this coaching staff, and I don't see how you like college sports? I am the "extra mild" "tomatoes are too spicy for my palate" salsa. Maybe college sports that matter ain't your thing?

Zagceo
01-15-2016, 12:27 PM
So, is it dismissive and nonchalant or is it "pitchforks and torches"? I don't think you guys really have a tenable grasp on the reality of these things, and choose to see them through a lens that while genuine, is distorted. If you don't like what I am saying, you wouldn't like this coaching staff, and I don't see how you like college sports? I am the "extra mild" "tomatoes are too spicy for my palate" salsa. Maybe college sports that matter ain't your thing?

Ouch

Reality Bam

big $ on the line and you gotta make judgments involving teenagers

life in the fast lane

LongIslandZagFan
01-15-2016, 12:27 PM
So, is it dismissive and nonchalant or is it "pitchforks and torches"? I don't think you guys really have a tenable grasp on the reality of these things, and choose to see them through a lens that while genuine, is distorted. If you don't like what I am saying, you wouldn't like this coaching staff, and I don't see how you like college sports? I am the "extra mild" "tomatoes are too spicy for my palate" salsa. Maybe college sports that matter ain't your thing?

You don't think asking that three players (kids) to transfer out because they don't meet your standards is doing anything bad? Ok... talk about tenable grasps on reality.

Enjoy your pity/hate party... I'm out.

GUfan34
01-15-2016, 12:29 PM
Two things I'm gonna say AGAIN

1- Pangos and Bell were very steady and reliable players from day 1.

2- stop comparing the two sets of guards. They aren't near as good and you look stupid trying to compare what we had to what we have.

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 12:37 PM
One thing that should really be understood is that cutting someone from a team or asking them to transfer isn't inherently uncaring, and doesn't signify that you don't care about the kid and his future. Welcome to sports that have things on the line. Tunnel vision is not so good. You have to care just as much for the other kids on the team, as well. You have to care about the kids who will be coming in, in terms of basketball, and you have to also be thinking about your assistants, those who hired you, and your family.

Stop reducing it to someone being unfeeling because someone suggested that it's time to move on. That kind of reductionist thinking is unrealistic and it shows a low level of emotional maturity/perspective.

bballbeachbum
01-15-2016, 12:41 PM
As much as I don't prefer to see Edwards in the game, I would rather see him there than having a 4-guard situation.

well it's one or the other if Domas gets in foul trouble whatever you prefer

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 12:42 PM
well it's one or the other if Domas gets in foul trouble whatever you prefer

Right. And I'll take Wiltjer and Edwards. That's how little confidence I have in BA and Silas, at the moment.

bballbeachbum
01-15-2016, 12:47 PM
Right. And I'll take Wiltjer and Edwards. That's how little confidence I have in BA and Silas, at the moment.

well if that's it, those guys are playing anyway so I don't get your objection if JP, Emac, KD and one of the two you have little confidence are on the floor with them...same thing. Bryan and Silas will still both play in either scenario so do you want to refine your thought on that?

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 12:55 PM
well if that's it, those guys are playing anyway so I don't get your objection if JP, Emac, KD and one of the two you have little confidence are on the floor with them...same thing. Bryan and Silas will still both play in either scenario so do you want to refine your thought on that?

You asked if we had played a 4-guard lineup or not the whole evening. I was addressing that specific line of discussion. It would be difficult for them to do that in any significant stretch for the time being. I have little confidence in Ryan Edwards, but I have more in him considering the system he facilitates by being on the floor, than to run with 4 guards.

bballbeachbum
01-15-2016, 01:05 PM
You asked if we had played a 4-guard lineup or not the whole evening. I was addressing that specific line of discussion. It would be difficult for them to do that in any significant stretch for the time being. I have little confidence in Ryan Edwards, but I have more in him considering the system he facilitates by being on the floor, than to run with 4 guards.

I did ask that. to which you replied


I hope we don't play too much 4-guard lineup

and then we continued our discussion which led to me asking you if you want to refine that thought, about Bryan and Silas and your confidence in them re. one lineup or the other, etc., and how they'd both play anyway, etc.

anyway, like I noted before in another post you made you seem thoughtful about basketball, so I'm asking you from that perspective...do you see the contradiction?

maynard g krebs
01-15-2016, 01:10 PM
...I am not even saying JP was mislead. When he was being recruited I don't think anyone (including Few) imagined Wiltjer and Sabonis being the 1-2 punch that they are. Few is just trying to coach to his personnel, which is what a good coach does . JP and the other guards were just sort of victims of circumstance. Also, staff has made it clear that next season JP and the other guards will be asked to score more.

...and yes I do have actual knowledge of the specifics during JP's recruitment. I have not tried to hide the fact that I am very close to him and his family.

Thanks MileHigh. Really appreciate your insider's perspective, and it all makes perfect sense. And I get where you're coming from w/ questioning the SWAC reference; in this part of the country it would make more sense to say Big Sky or Big West if somebody wanted to make that kind of a slam.

On the topic in general, and of course this isn't referring to Josh who is the team's clear number 3 at the moment, anybody who has been the 7th or 8th best player on a team with a couple of superior players should understand how hard it is to play free, loose and confident when everything goes through those guys and you are playing with the kind of restrictions you describe. IMO this has pretty much killed the individual games of McClellan, Melson, KD, who are being good soldiers but are playing inhibited basketball. Double edged sword as someone else mentioned earlier; hard to find a balance.

bballbeachbum
01-15-2016, 01:13 PM
Thanks MileHigh. Really appreciate your insider's perspective, and it all makes perfect sense. And I get where you're coming from w/ questioning the SWAC reference; in this part of the country it would make more sense to say Big Sky or Big West if somebody wanted to make that kind of a slam.

On the topic in general, and of course this isn't referring to Josh who is the team's clear number 3 at the moment, anybody who has been the 7th or 8th best player on a team with a couple of superior players should understand how hard it is to play free, loose and confident when everything goes through those guys and you are playing with the kind of restrictions you describe. IMO this has pretty much killed the individual games of McClellan, Melson, KD, who are being good soldiers but are playing inhibited basketball. Double edged sword as someone else mentioned earlier; hard to find a balance.

great points from you both, and a topic discussed here about this team's big-centric approach

MileHigh
01-15-2016, 01:16 PM
You don't think asking that three players (kids) to transfer out because they don't meet your standards is doing anything bad? Ok... talk about tenable grasps on reality.

Enjoy your pity/hate party... I'm out.

The "conversations" happen at every big time program every spring as the herd is culled. With most programs (an I assume Gonzaga as well) players are not directly asked to leave, instead in their post-season meeting, they are told that they will unlikely see much if any playing time going forward. They are told that it is their choice if they want to stay and basically get walk-on minutes but keep their scholie, or they can transfer and the staff will make some calls and do everything in their power to help them find a good spot to transfer to. Also, during this process an assistant coach will roll up to the player and tell him the horror story about the kid that refused to transfer and how the head coach made his life miserable because of it (even if it was only partly true or an out and out fabrication). This process usually results in a transfer and everyone moves on. It isn't necessarily a bad thing, or a good thing, it is simply a D1 basketball thing.

LongIslandZagFan
01-15-2016, 01:18 PM
The "conversations" happen at every big time program every spring as the herd is culled. With most programs (an I assume Gonzaga as well) players are not directly asked to leave, instead in their post-season meeting, they are told that they will unlikely see much if any playing time going forward. They are told that it is their choice if they want to stay and basically get walk-on minutes but keep their scholie, or they can transfer and the staff will make some calls and do everything in their power to help them find a good spot to transfer to. Also, during this process an assistant coach will roll up to the player and tell him the horror story about the kid that refused to transfer and how the head coach made his life miserable because of it (even if it was only partly true or an out and out fabrication). This process usually results in a transfer and everyone moves on. It isn't necessarily a bad thing, or a good thing, it is simply a D1 basketball thing.

And when fans do it after a loss... it looks pretty classless. Just sayin'.

Zagceo
01-15-2016, 01:21 PM
http://media.giphy.com/media/TlK63EvhKP0Dpi3cAla/giphy-facebook_s.jpg

maynard g krebs
01-15-2016, 01:28 PM
Agree completely, but Melson was a 2 time POY in OR....and wasn't he a 4 star? Value pick?

No, he wasn't. Somebody incorrectly posted that he was, on this board a month or 2 ago. Unranked 3 star, #41 sg on ESPN, 47 sg composite ranking.

I've mentioned before seeing him play 2 aau games at Bellevue CC, saying he was a step behind Bell as a hs player, and that he must have had his worst weekend when I saw him and I'd defer to those who know more than I do. Most of the time, he's looked like the player I saw, with a handful of exceptions.

Project player w/ upside who might be able to use his athleticism in a Romar-type system. Streak shooter who needs the green light to get rhythm/confidence. As to POY, Oregon is a small population state. Sometimes the POY is Kevin love, sometimes it's Brandon Lincoln.

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 01:29 PM
I did ask that. to which you replied



and then we continued our discussion which led to me asking you if you want to refine that thought, about Bryan and Silas and your confidence in them re. one lineup or the other, etc., and how they'd both play anyway, etc.

anyway, like I noted before in another post you made you seem thoughtful about basketball, so I'm asking you from that perspective...do you see the contradiction?

First and foremost, Edwards actually gets more usage on the floor, even though his playing roughly half the minutes of Melson and 29 minutes behind Alberts. It also solidifies a rotation for the guard/wing pack, and limits the damage that can be done by the less consistent on this team. Emac isn't going to quite get to where I think he should be, but he's going to be better than what you might get out of BA and Silas. On one hand, yes they haven't had nearly the minutes that some feel might benefit them, but we also don't have any indicators as to whether or not more time would increase productivity in an effective manner.

I also don't like the idea of bogging down Wiltjer (if Domas is in trouble) into a 5 spot, for extended periods of time. We are limiting his capacity for productivity, and with only one big, I feel as though teams can go at him and focus on getting him in foul trouble. To go along with what you said, if this guard pack was playing even average defense and average offense, from top to bottom...then maybe that works. As it keeps people honest, and it requires the opposition to adjust to you to stay in the game, rather than to gain a major advantage.

As well, if you go with 4 guards, and two of them can't shoot the 3-ball (Melson and Emac) then you're essentially giving space to the defense. I hate the idea of that. It also means that there is a higher likelihood that certain percentages of their USG% are absolutely unusable. And in order for their shot selection to be utilized you really have to throw good spacing out the window. For an efficient team that is not really good and pushing the ball, right now, that's not a good thing. You need a nice flow to your half court offense, and the ability to keep the defense honest. THEN you can get out and run when you force the other team into mistakes and turnovers that allow for it.

spike_jr
01-15-2016, 01:36 PM
Wow! Lots of things to digest in this thread. I was at the game last night so I guess I will chime in as well.

Coaching:
1. It drives me absolutely nuts that Few will watch a lead evaporate without calling a TO. We had a 10 point lead in the first half that totally disappeared with no TO and a 13 point lead in the second half that had seriously eroded before the TO was called. Our guards are less experienced and TOs can be used to calm them down and get everybody on the same page as well as interrupt the other team's momentum.
2. Why did it take so long to decide to double team Collinsworth when he came in to the paint? By the time that adjustment was made (and it was effective), it was far too late.
3. We need to get better on defending out of bounds plays as well as executing our own. Few used to be a master at scoring after TOs and on under the bucket inbounds plays. Now its a small victory if we get the ball in without turning it over.

Players (although without knowing what the coaches tell them, this is all speculation)
1. If you didn't have the ball and you weren't KW or DS, BYU didn't bother defending you. BYU left guys wide open on the wings and dared somebody to shoot and make it. You need to make teams pay for sagging off by either making shots or cutting to the basket. This to me is the heart of the argument between this year's guards and last year's. Nobody was going to let Pangos or Bell sit on the 3 point line and give them wide open shots - at least not in the kennel. It appeared to me that BYU intentionally left EM wide wide wide open, hoping he would shoot (and he accommodated them).
2. There were numerous times that RE was wide open and did not get the ball. If he is in there, you have to use him and again, keep the other team honest on Defense. His team mates did not look for him for whatever reason (probably lack of confidence in him by teammates and coaches?).
3. I think the defense was ok, but not great. BYU missed a lot of wide open looks.
4. You can not throw the ball inside to KW and/or DS and then just stand around and observe.
5. In defense of the players on the last possession, everybody in the gym knew who was going to take that last shot (including the players). But with the shooting and scoring (or lack there of) that we witnessed last night, do you blame KW for the shot?

It was very frustrating to watch a team that can not even pronounce "defense", let alone play it, limit us so much offensively and at home. We are 5-1 in conference but have beat the bottom tier schools while falling to an upper tier school AT HOME. All is not lost and there is time to continue to improve, but the clock is ticking and what I see is unsettling to say the least.

bballbeachbum
01-15-2016, 01:39 PM
First and foremost, Edwards actually gets more usage on the floor, even though his playing roughly half the minutes of Melson and 29 minutes behind Alberts. It also solidifies a rotation for the guard/wing pack, and limits the damage that can be done by the less consistent on this team. Emac isn't going to quite get to where I think he should be, but he's going to be better than what you might get out of BA and Silas. On one hand, yes they haven't had nearly the minutes that some feel might benefit them, but we also don't have any indicators as to whether or not more time would increase productivity in an effective manner.

I also don't like the idea of bogging down Wiltjer (if Domas is in trouble) into a 5 spot, for extended periods of time. We are limiting his capacity for productivity, and with only one big, I feel as though teams can go at him and focus on getting him in foul trouble. To go along with what you said, if this guard pack was playing even average defense and average offense, from top to bottom...then maybe that works. As it keeps people honest, and it requires the opposition to adjust to you to stay in the game, rather than to gain a major advantage.

As well, if you go with 4 guards, and two of them can't shoot the 3-ball (Melson and Emac) then you're essentially giving space to the defense. I hate the idea of that. It also means that there is a higher likelihood that certain percentages of their USG% are absolutely unusable. And in order for their shot selection to be utilized you really have to throw good spacing out the window. For an efficient team that is not really good and pushing the ball, right now, that's not a good thing. You need a nice flow to your half court offense, and the ability to keep the defense honest. THEN you can get out and run when you force the other team into mistakes and turnovers that allow for it.

ok, well now I understand more what you like and don't like but man, it appears you're still unable/unwilling to see the contradiction I brought to your attention, all of your other objections to a 4 guard lineup since then notwithstanding. right on then, moving on.......

Zags11
01-15-2016, 01:43 PM
Two things I'm gonna say AGAIN

1- Pangos and Bell were very steady and reliable players from day 1.

2- stop comparing the two sets of guards. They aren't near as good and you look stupid trying to compare what we had to what we have.

Opinions on bell vs Perkins. I gave you stats. And we were talking stats. Perkins outscored bell so far every yr but Jr yr. And has better 3pt % on two of the four.

So your talking opinion vs facts. Factually Perkins scored more then bell right now then bells senior year.

Zags11
01-15-2016, 01:45 PM
Two things I'm gonna say AGAIN

1- Pangos and Bell were very steady and reliable players from day 1.

2- stop comparing the two sets of guards. They aren't near as good and you look stupid trying to compare what we had to what we have.

If your speaking to me, well I disproved your theory with Perkins and bell. So you think bell would of helped carry the team as a freshman or sophomore but with less ppg then perkins? Fair enough. And overall people giving up on two young guards is kind of dumb. But this same board wanted to burn karno at the stake and got their wish.

A final 4 chance to now hoping for march.

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 01:54 PM
ok, well now I understand more what you like and don't like but man, it appears you're still unable/unwilling to see the contradiction I brought to your attention, all of your other objections to a 4 guard lineup since then notwithstanding. right on then, moving on.......

I see what you are saying. I see KD as a 3 (though, he can play limited 2). But when you throw 3 other guards out there with him, that can't score, it kind of changes the dynamic on the floor. Apologies for the confusion. I am not in favor of playing 3 guards with a guard/forward like KD and placing Wiltjer at the 5.

There are some that would look at any combination of Perkins, Emac, KD, Melson, and Alberts on the floor and call that a 4-guard rotation. Especially if the play is altered, as well. Hope that clears everything up.

GUfan34
01-15-2016, 01:58 PM
Bell would take a dump on Perkins in every way possible.

Again, you can't just use stats and say "SEE? THERE"

Mike Hart shot 60% from three and the floor...

So he must be the greatest athlete in the history of sports.

I just confirmed Hart is the best shooter of all time.


Also FWIW I've got less of a problem with Perkins as I do the other guards.

I don't think Perkins is a problem. But he's no Bell and he's not Pangos

kitzbuel
01-15-2016, 02:03 PM
Perkins is fine. Sure, would have liked to have seen him shoot better, but he rebounded well, he distributed well, limited turn-overs. He is going to be a really good PG, maybe even great.

It would have been really nice to have Sabonis on the floor a lot more, though.

Ezag
01-15-2016, 02:14 PM
Perkins is improving and that is a good thing. Unfortunately, every other guard is stagnant or regressing.

What we are really missing is a 3rd reliable scorer every game behind Domas and KW

bballbeachbum
01-15-2016, 02:16 PM
I see what you are saying. I see KD as a 3 (though, he can play limited 2). But when you throw 3 other guards out there with him, that can't score, it kind of changes the dynamic on the floor. Apologies for the confusion. I am not in favor of playing 3 guards with a guard/forward like KD and placing Wiltjer at the 5.

There are some that would look at any combination of Perkins, Emac, KD, Melson, and Alberts on the floor and call that a 4-guard rotation. Especially if the play is altered, as well. Hope that clears everything up.

cheers man, no confusion :cheers:

Zags11
01-15-2016, 02:17 PM
Lol. Hart avg 2.0 ppg. Your grasping at straws in this debate. Bell would crap on Perkins in every way......but ppg and 3pt % half his career.

Perkins is also better rebounder. He also avgs more assists more a gm. Perkins also had more steals per gm.

So technically I could say Perkins craps on bell. See? So we are going off stats and not opinions.

Bell wouldn't carry this team either. So Perkins is better in everything but ft %. Carry on though with blind hate for Perkins and melson. Make up another useless counter argument like you tried with hart.

And I loved bell but my point was they wouldn't of carried this team at this point in their career like Perkins either.

Zags11
01-15-2016, 02:17 PM
Perkins is improving and that is a good thing. Unfortunately, every other guard is stagnant or regressing.

What we are really missing is a 3rd reliable scorer every game behind Domas and KW

Agree.

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 02:18 PM
Opinions on bell vs Perkins. I gave you stats. And we were talking stats. Perkins outscored bell so far every yr but Jr yr. And has better 3pt % on two of the four.

So your talking opinion vs facts. Factually Perkins scored more then bell right now then bells senior year.

Perkins is actually starting to trend in a nice direction. People are using so much eye test and emotional volatility, though...that we are missing how well he is doing. On some level. Per game, Josh already has a larger role in terms of minutes played and his responsibilities. But let's remember, GBJ was also playing alongside KP. The fact that he was able to be as effective as he was offensively was impressive.

If you look at the stats beyond points scored, I would actually take JP from an offensive perspective. He has yet to completely figure out defense in the WCC, but his ORtg is still off the charts, so the margin between the two makes that lack of defensive production not so unbearable for the time being.

What we don't have is a KP, for Josh. That other guard to work in tandem with. *That* is what made those two so special. There is that potential next year with NWG.

Zags11
01-15-2016, 02:21 PM
Coach crazy I agree. My point was I don't see a bell or pangos taking over much more then Perkins at this point in career if they lost Kelly per say.

Perkins will be just fine.

seacatfan
01-15-2016, 02:23 PM
The Perkins vs. Bell comparison seems pointless. Perkins is the PG. Bell played 2G his whole career and was the defensive stopper. Totally completely different roles they played on their teams, how do you actually compare them? Sure you can look at stats but I just think it's an apples to oranges comparison.

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 02:27 PM
The Perkins vs. Bell comparison seems pointless. Perkins is the PG. Bell played 2G his whole career and was the defensive stopper. Totally completely different roles they played on their teams, how do you actually compare them? Sure you can look at stats but I just think it's an apples to oranges comparison.

There is some relevance, as we have yet to see how NWG and Perkins will function together. But yes, Bell was functioning in a different capacity...although I don't know that that changes things beyond assists and a few other categories? Perkins actually played very good defense pre-WCC. He most likely won't be the same defender that Gary was, he'll be just fine in defending who he is asked to. Gary's DRtg wasn't actually stellar much of his career from an overall perspective, but that doesn't take into account the fact that he was often times guard the best player 1-3 on the court.

MickMick
01-15-2016, 02:27 PM
I'm trying to recall the last guard that dribbled himself into trouble more than Perkins. I can't say Meech because he could dribble himself out of trouble, rectifying the situation he got himself into.

Nope, I can't ever recall a GU guard that dribbled into no man's land, without purpose, more than Perkins.

And folks want to give him credit for his handles. The entire problem with Perkins is his handles. Not that he doesn't have them, but that he doesn't know how to use them, or worse, allows his handles to take over his game to the point that he is ineffective as a point guard.

I put Perkins below Goodson in the point guard pecking order in the Mark Few era. He really should move over to shooting guard for the remainder of his GU tenure. He really should.

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 02:30 PM
I'm trying to recall the last guard that dribbled himself into trouble more than Perkins. I can't say Meech because he could dribble himself out of trouble, rectifying the situation he got himself into.

Nope, I can't ever recall a GU guard that dribbled into no man's land, without purpose, more than Perkins.

And folks want to give him credit for his handles. The entire problem with Perkins is his handles. Not that he doesn't have them, but that he doesn't know how to use them, or worse, allows his handles to take over his game to the point that he is ineffective as a point guard.

I put Perkins below Goodson in the point guard pecking order in the Mark Few era.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Bro, Mick, thank you. That hopefully lightened the mood for everybody.

Zags11
01-15-2016, 02:35 PM
Mick wow. I'm done in here. Lol

GUfan34
01-15-2016, 02:38 PM
Lol. Hart avg 2.0 ppg. Your grasping at straws in this debate. Bell would crap on Perkins in every way......but ppg and 3pt % half his career.

Perkins is also better rebounder. He also avgs more assists more a gm. Perkins also had more steals per gm.

So technically I could say Perkins craps on bell. See? So we are going off stats and not opinions.

Bell wouldn't carry this team either. So Perkins is better in everything but ft %. Carry on though with blind hate for Perkins and melson. Make up another useless counter argument like you tried with hart.

And I loved bell but my point was they wouldn't of carried this team at this point in their career like Perkins either.


Perkins plays PG, obviously his assists are higher.

Let's talk defense.... You don't want to.

Using just stats is so stupid. Bell was a volume shooter. Perkins doesn't shoot as many.

If you actually think Perkins is as good at shooting, well, you're wrong.

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 02:50 PM
I'm trying to recall the last guard that dribbled himself into trouble more than Perkins. I can't say Meech because he could dribble himself out of trouble, rectifying the situation he got himself into.

Nope, I can't ever recall a GU guard that dribbled into no man's land, without purpose, more than Perkins.

And folks want to give him credit for his handles. The entire problem with Perkins is his handles. Not that he doesn't have them, but that he doesn't know how to use them, or worse, allows his handles to take over his game to the point that he is ineffective as a point guard.

I put Perkins below Goodson in the point guard pecking order in the Mark Few era. He really should move over to shooting guard for the remainder of his GU tenure. He really should.

You just lost any credibility with putting Goodson above Perkins. Goodson is tied with Winston Brooks as the worst PG ever. Bankhead was a more serviceable guard the Meech. And how exactly do you define a player after 17 games? Goodson Career 5 pts and 2 assists per game, Perkins 10.4 and 3.7 the turnovers are about (favor Goodson ) even, which is the only category you could even think to say he was better in, nobody with any basketball knowledge would begin to say that. No measurement possible, stats, eye test, astrological sign, or shoe size would give the Meech the nod over Perkins.

gonstu
01-15-2016, 02:53 PM
Wow - I am hoping this thread stays open until the USD game and then self destructs.

GUfan34
01-15-2016, 02:54 PM
Yeah, Meech makes Perkins look like Damien Lillard lol

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 02:55 PM
Yeah, Meech makes Perkins look like Damien Lillard lol

Mick's work is done here. He got everyone to chill out for a second haha.

sittingon50
01-15-2016, 02:57 PM
Well yeah, but if Perkins came over the middle, Meech would light him up!

:p

Coach Crazy
01-15-2016, 02:59 PM
Well yeah, but if Perkins came over the middle, Meech would light him up!

:p

Wasn't Meetch a conerback? What's a cornerback doing on that kind of wonky zone D?! You clearly know nothing about football!! (Sorry, was getting to cordial in here. Just throwing out nonsense to get things going again.)

Ezag
01-15-2016, 03:02 PM
I've said it before and I will say it again....there is NO ONE like BOL KONG!

Zags11
01-15-2016, 03:12 PM
Perkins plays PG, obviously his assists are higher.

Let's talk defense.... You don't want to.

Using just stats is so stupid. Bell was a volume shooter. Perkins doesn't shoot as many.

If you actually think Perkins is as good at shooting, well, you're wrong.

Yea Perkins avg more steals per game then bell. Now your nitpicking. Keep swinging. Lol

TheZagPhish
01-15-2016, 03:28 PM
I've said it before and I will say it again....there is NO ONE like BOL KONG!

Bol Kong!

Room for some Guy Landry Edi discussion?

Ezag
01-15-2016, 03:39 PM
Bol Kong!

Room for some Guy Landry Edi discussion?

yes and Manny Arop

DixieZag
01-15-2016, 03:48 PM
There is some relevance, as we have yet to see how NWG and Perkins will function together. But yes, Bell was functioning in a different capacity...although I don't know that that changes things beyond assists and a few other categories? Perkins actually played very good defense pre-WCC. He most likely won't be the same defender that Gary was, he'll be just fine in defending who he is asked to. Gary's DRtg wasn't actually stellar much of his career from an overall perspective, but that doesn't take into account the fact that he was often times guard the best player 1-3 on the court.

This is all true.

However, I think that people forget that Bell could play the point, too - and, had that Pangos guy not come in the same recruiting class, he may have been playing it. He was a PG in HS, and people forget that in his frosh season, Bell often ran the point whenever Kevin was sitting down. Instead, we had Pangos, shifting Bell over to allow him to concentrate on his other gifts.

GUfan34
01-15-2016, 03:50 PM
Yea Perkins avg more steals per game then bell. Now your nitpicking. Keep swinging. Lol


Riiiight, steals is the sole measure for defense

Learn the game. You are a fantasy sports nut

vandalzag
01-15-2016, 03:54 PM
This is all true.

However, I think that people forget that Bell could play the point, too - and, had that Pangos guy not come in the same recruiting class, he may have been playing it. He was a PG in HS, and people forget that in his frosh season, Bell often ran the point whenever Kevin was sitting down. Instead, we had Pangos, shifting Bell over to allow him to concentrate on his other gifts.

Sorry have to disagree with you on this. Stockton ran the point with Pangos on the bench and even when Pangos was on the floor, allowing Pangos to shoot. Gary did a lot good things, but playing PG was not one of them.

SteelZag
01-15-2016, 03:55 PM
I think the best thing that could happen to this team would be for Wiltjer and Sabonis to both get injured for about 6-8 games, nothing serious but just keep them on the bench and force the other players to step it up! We might lose some of those games, but face it, the ONLY way this team makes the NCAA tourney this year is to win the WCC tourney and that won't happen if the guards and players other than Wiltjer and Sabonis don't start playing at a higher level.

The best idea I have seen so far.