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View Full Version : Hypothetical - Impact of a Karnowski redshirt?



strikenowhere
01-04-2016, 10:19 AM
Hey guys,

Now I'm of the mindset that Karnowski will be gone after this season, but I wanted to entertain the thought of a medical redshirt on the roster next year. First, here is what I'd project the starters for next year will be without him:

Perkins
NWG
(Alberts?/Melson?/Norvell?/Tillie?)
Williams
Sabonis

with Collins most likely 1st off the bench for the bigs, followed by Edwards/Larsen (assuming no redshirt). Now, if Karnowski is back, here is another projection:

Perkins
NWG
(Alberts/Melson/Norvell/Tillie)
Sabonis
Karnowski

with Williams & Collins battling for time off the bench, Edwards being an afterthought, and Larsen definitely redshirting.

What do you guys think about this? I wonder how much of a factor the development of the other players will eventually be for Karnowski's decision?

bartruff1
01-04-2016, 10:23 AM
I can't believe Sabonis will be here....but then I didn't think he would be here this year....I did notice Tommy made a quick trip to Europe.. coincidence ? I think not.

strikenowhere
01-04-2016, 10:27 AM
Maybe he was meeting with Karnowski's parents?

Coach Crazy
01-04-2016, 11:21 AM
Hey guys,

Now I'm of the mindset that Karnowski will be gone after this season, but I wanted to entertain the thought of a medical redshirt on the roster next year. First, here is what I'd project the starters for next year will be without him:

Perkins
NWG
(Alberts?/Melson?/Norvell?/Tillie?)
Williams
Sabonis

with Collins most likely 1st off the bench for the bigs, followed by Edwards/Larsen (assuming no redshirt). Now, if Karnowski is back, here is another projection:

Perkins
NWG
(Alberts/Melson/Norvell/Tillie)
Sabonis
Karnowski

with Williams & Collins battling for time off the bench, Edwards being an afterthought, and Larsen definitely redshirting.

What do you guys think about this? I wonder how much of a factor the development of the other players will eventually be for Karnowski's decision?

If J3's shot has come along the way it needs to, you'll find Few at least trying him out at 3 to start. At this point, I have no faith in Melson and Alberts. I am willing to see where things go with them, but Tillie and Norvell are already better basketball players and bigger *before* stepping playing a second of regular season college ball. "Elberts" (Honestly, Greg) and Silas might be on the way out if this year doesn't go better. Unless they don't mind coming of the bench the rest of the way out.

If Karnowski doesn't come back, well...I would be hard pressed to see why Ryan isn't slotted in at C, next year. Unless Few has no faith in the kid. That is still a long ways off. But either way, ideally, you'd want J3 being able to be an all-purpose forward that can man the 3 and be a secondary 4.

BULLDOG#1
01-04-2016, 12:16 PM
stated it in a different thread: if Karno and Domas both return and you add in JWIII and Collins up front, this could be the best zag rebounding team ever. With NWG and a seasoned Perkins, Melson, and Alberts, it could be one of the best defensive zag teams ever. Not sure if JWIII could play the 3 or if Jones is a defensive stopper ala Knight, but either of those two could surprise at the 3 spot. Any way you slice it, it's a wealth of talent. Top 10 talent without question.

zag67
01-04-2016, 12:21 PM
And do not forget Norvell and Tillie. This seems like a team that can even live through some injuries and still be super.

GonzagasaurusFlex
01-04-2016, 12:31 PM
The impact of Karnowski receiving a medical redshirt for this season, getting healthy and being available to play next year would be huge (pun intended).

It would be deja vu all over again on GUBoards because many would be clamoring to "start the 3 bigs" Williams, Sabonis and PK. Johnathan Williams is no joke, and if his hoops resume thus far means anything than that guy deserves major minutes next season http://www.gozags.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/johnathan_williams_982243.html

Zach Collins also deserves serious minutes as a freshmen, and I am sure Karnowski and Wiltjer both finishing their GU careers this season had a lot to do with Zach Collins committing to Zags. He is not a 'ride the pine and bide your time' kind of talent, and realistically I think if PK does redshirt and return (and Sabonis remains too) there is a distinct possibility Collins takes his talents elsewhere....I wouldn't blame the kid, but of course hope that scenario doesn't play out.

seacatfan
01-04-2016, 12:52 PM
If J3's shot has come along the way it needs to, you'll find Few at least trying him out at 3 to start. At this point, I have no faith in Melson and Alberts. I am willing to see where things go with them, but Tillie and Norvell are already better basketball players and bigger *before* stepping playing a second of regular season college ball. "Elberts" (Honestly, Greg) and Silas might be on the way out if this year doesn't go better. Unless they don't mind coming of the bench the rest of the way out.

If Karnowski doesn't come back, well...I would be hard pressed to see why Ryan isn't slotted in at C, next year. Unless Few has no faith in the kid. That is still a long ways off. But either way, ideally, you'd want J3 being able to be an all-purpose forward that can man the 3 and be a secondary 4.

Based on the minutes he's getting currently, I'd say Few has very little faith in Edwards. Don't know why that would change next year, given how many big bodies there will be to choose from. We'll see.

As far as Tillie and Norvell already being better than Melson and Alberts...haven't we already made that mistake many times? In fact just last year so many were convinced Melson was already better than Bell, Jr. How did that work out? Easy to overhype a kid you've never seen before, or only seen mixtape highlights of, vs. a kid who might be struggling but has already been competing against other D1 athletes for 1 or 2 or 3 years. It would be GREAT if Norvell comes in and can knock down the 3 ball consistently, contribute in other phases of the game, and play with confidence, but you never know with freshmen.

MDABE80
01-04-2016, 12:52 PM
1. I don't like Perks defense.
2. Lots of unknowns in the frontcourt. Can't speculte right now wince we have no idea of Karno's fate.
3. Melson is such a poor shooter, I'd be depressed too if I was him. Oregon POY shooting 25 ppg in short quarters. he's agreat kid. I hope he comes around. Nothing like a seasoned vet no matter how good a frosh looks.
4.Tillie will surprise. he's continued to grow and his athleticism has too. Quite the leaper.
5. I wouldn't be surprised in WIlliams can't do some "3" time.
6. Collins will be all world next year.
7. Edwards MUST be brought along. He's got skills just no time/minutes to prove it..or develop them. In the USF game, I hope somebody noticed he shot and missed but he followed his shot and snagged the ball. Fundamentals looked great to me. When's the last time any of our kids shot and followed their shots. Just so basic but very rarely done.

Next season we'll be in a fix once again. A plethora of talent and an equal amount of "who does what". More later...

kitzbuel
01-04-2016, 01:16 PM
7. Edwards MUST be brought along. He's got skills just no time/minutes to prove it..or develop them. In the USF game, I hope somebody noticed he shot and missed but he followed his shot and snagged the ball. Fundamentals looked great to me. When's the last time any of our kids shot and followed their shots. Just so basic but very rarely done.


It was so easy for him to get that since he knew exactly where the rebound was going the moment he released it.

mgadfly
01-04-2016, 01:23 PM
5. I wouldn't be surprised in WIlliams can't do some "3" time.


What do you mean? I think the double-negative is throwing me for a loop.

Mr Vulture
01-04-2016, 01:39 PM
I'm just going to put my thoughts out there without reading the details of what others have shown. First off, I really haven't seen much in regards to the play of Melson, Alberts, or Edwards that makes me feel they should be in the rotation of a Top 20 level team. Secondly, in regards to Sabonis and Karno returning...I think the Domas comes back as it was the degree as the stated reason for coming over to start with. In regards to Karno, I think alot of it will depend on how quickly he recovers. If it is May/June, he shouldn't have much issue getting a shot in Europe. If it's more July/August I think he could return to GU to re-establish his stock, so to speak. In any case, I think the NBA is off the table for Karno right now. I wouldn't be shocked to see a senior transfer wing come in this Spring but based on what we currently have and assuming no Karno..this is what I see:

Starting Lineup 2016-17:
Perkins
Williams-Goss
Norvell or Jones
Williams III
Sabonis

Bench:
Collins
Norvell or Jones
Melson
Alberts
Tillie/Larsen (one RS)
Edwards

JoeZag
01-05-2016, 07:18 AM
I'm just going to put my thoughts out there without reading the details of what others have shown. First off, I really haven't seen much in regards to the play of Melson, Alberts, or Edwards that makes me feel they should be in the rotation of a Top 20 level team. Secondly, in regards to Sabonis and Karno returning...I think the Domas comes back as it was the degree as the stated reason for coming over to start with. In regards to Karno, I think alot of it will depend on how quickly he recovers. If it is May/June, he shouldn't have much issue getting a shot in Europe. If it's more July/August I think he could return to GU to re-establish his stock, so to speak. In any case, I think the NBA is off the table for Karno right now. I wouldn't be shocked to see a senior transfer wing come in this Spring but based on what we currently have and assuming no Karno..this is what I see:

Starting Lineup 2016-17:
Perkins
Williams-Goss
Norvell or Jones
Williams III
Sabonis

Bench:
Collins
Norvell or Jones
Melson
Alberts
Tillie/Larsen (one RS)
Edwards

I think your analysis of the situation is spot on, but I don't think Silas will be back next year. He has shown his displeasure several times this year and looks to be disconnected from the rest of the team. It is obvious that he thinks he should be starting and getting big minutes, but his mental errors and propensity to 'chuck it up' every time he gets in the game have pushed him into Few's doghouse. I see a transfer coming....

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 08:07 AM
* Collins has gotta play, and a lot. Like Sabonis freshman type numbers. You know, the charade of not starting but then playing 33 minutes.

* Forget Edwards. Just forget him.

* Pretty close to saying same for Melson and Alberts. Don't see the skills, see the talent, not the skills.

* Josh and Goss will share the point, a la DD and BS

* Ur right Doc, Josh plays D like DD.....if only....

* After getting scalded this year by my own petard (mixing metaphors) I am not gonna get all psyched about any of the newcomers, save for Collins.

* 10% chance PK comes back to GU

Goshzagit
01-05-2016, 08:19 AM
Agree with all that is being said, save the commentary/doubt of Alberts.

He's going to come around. Book it. Might not be this year, yet too good of a shooter & has the right mind for basketball, along withstand terrific frame.

Guarantee the lights will come.

FWIW, I know it may not mean much, but he's occasionally the most dominant guard in practice. At least 3 players have mentioned this ... just not clicking on game situations outside a beautiful perimeter shot. Still 60+% on the season.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 08:23 AM
Agree with all that is being said, save the commentary/doubt of Alberts.

He's going to come around. Book it. Might not be this year, yet too good of a shooter & has the right mind for basketball, along withstand terrific frame.

Guarantee the lights will come.

FWIW, I know it may not mean much, but he's occasionally the most dominant guard in practice. At least 3 players have mentioned this ... just not clicking on game situations outside a beautiful perimeter shot. Still 60+% on the season.

That's what they said about Melson last year....all due respect, means bubkiss.

Zaga
01-05-2016, 09:48 AM
* Collins has gotta play, and a lot. Like Sabonis freshman type numbers. You know, the charade of not starting but then playing 33 minutes.

* After getting scalded this year by my own petard (mixing metaphors) I am not gonna get all psyched about any of the newcomers, save for Collins.

+1. JP's rookie start took me to the edge this season.

raise the zag
01-05-2016, 10:02 AM
+1. JP's rookie start took me to the edge this season.

Buddy Hield averaged 7 ppg as a freshman, sub 40% from FG, & 30% from 3pt.

He now averages 25 ppg, 50% 3pt, same for FG.

Besides Top-10 one yr wonder draft picks, it takes at least an entire season for it to come together.

Think Pargo, Raivio, Bouldin, et al...and all the other guards who received PT their first season. All struggled before becoming stars.

It may not seem like it, yet check their stats vs Perkins current frosh stats.

Perkins is better in nearly every category, save TO's.

Sometimes "gonzaga lore" gets carried away around here...

There have also been several seasons of MULTIPLE losses in WCC.

Some act as if we've never lost a conference game before

Silas is fair game b/c he's a Sophomore, the others aren't until they have a year of experience under their belts...

GUfan34
01-05-2016, 10:08 AM
I can't believe Sabonis will be here....but then I didn't think he would be here this year....I did notice Tommy made a quick trip to Europe.. coincidence ? I think not.

Where would he have gone after last season?

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 10:21 AM
Buddy Hield averaged 7 ppg as a freshman, sub 40% from FG, & 30% from 3pt.

He now averages 25 ppg, 50% 3pt, same for FG.

Besides Top-10 one yr wonder draft picks, it takes at least an entire season for it to come together.

Think Pargo, Raivio, Bouldin, et al...and all the other guards who received PT their first season. All struggled before becoming stars.

It may not seem like it, yet check their stats vs Perkins current frosh stats.

Perkins is better in nearly every category, save TO's.

Sometimes "gonzaga lore" gets carried away around here...

There have also been several seasons of MULTIPLE losses in WCC.

Some act as if we've never lost a conference game before

Silas is fair game b/c he's a Sophomore, the others aren't until they have a year of experience under their belts...



Reach, Raise, comparing Hield with JP. Only true measure on court stats and eyeballs. Josh has work to do. Melson, I don't see a glimmer.

GUfan34
01-05-2016, 10:30 AM
Hield is a big time outlier. Most players don't improve like that. When I say most, I mean nearly all

bartruff1
01-05-2016, 10:41 AM
Where would he have gone after last season?

To a professional team....probably in Europa..

BULLDOG#1
01-05-2016, 10:51 AM
Melson, I don't see a glimmer.

I do. Obviously his confidence is down and he spends time in Few's doghouse... but I have seen more than a 'glimmer' in his skill set. Though a soph, he's really a frosh given the circumstances last year.

His athleticism is outstanding.
His defense is solid -- Few trusts him defensively, even in tight situations. With experience, he could be 'lock down'
Contrary to what folks have posted on this board, his outside shot is good, potentially great (his confidence is just rattled)
He needs work on ball-handling and limiting TOs (not a problem unique to him)
Mopes too much, but has shown the desire to go after the ball and play with passion.

I think he's got incredible upside.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 10:56 AM
I do. Obviously his confidence is down and he spends time in Few's doghouse... but I have seen more than a 'glimmer' in his skill set. Though a soph, he's really a frosh given the circumstances last year.

His athleticism is outstanding.
His defense is solid -- Few trusts him defensively, even in tight situations. With experience, he could be 'lock down'
Contrary to what folks have posted on this board, his outside shot is good, potentially great (his confidence is just rattled)
He needs work on ball-handling and limiting TOs (not a problem unique to him)
Mopes too much, but has shown the desire to go after the ball and play with passion.

I think he's got incredible upside.

Plenty of talent, no argument. It's skills he lacks. Hope you're right but I don't see it.

Bogozags
01-05-2016, 11:20 AM
HYPOTHETICAL completely HYPOTHETICAL

A. Domas does return for his junior year and...

1. PK does indeed RS this season and returns next season...this will create a PT issue with the team as there are only 80 minutes of PT between the PF and C positions.

Starters at the PF and C positions will be PK and DS. Reserves available: Edwards, WIII, and Zack Collins and Larsen is a RS. It would be nice to have three back-ups for those two positions. Remember the PT available is only 80 minutes divided by 5 = 16 minutes each. We all know that isn't how it is going to work...one of the reserves, most likely Edwards, will once again be on the bench with few minutes for him to work during the game.

If this is indeed the scenario then I think IMO Edwards will look for more playing time at another school, unless he choses to stay and get more playing time as a senior, when DS and PK will both be gone and it would be him, WIII and Collins getting the bulk with Larsen playing little.

2. PK does not return next season, then we will be back to four big men and the rotation will be much more palatable for Edwards and Collins as I'm guessing the starters would be DS and WIII, with Collins/Edwards coming off the bench and Larsen a RS. Plenty of PT for all four to improve and "grow" into these positions in 2017.

B. Domas does not return for his junior year and...

1. PK does indeed RS this season and returns next season...Then you have somewhat of a repeat of scenario #2, where 80 minutes of PT are divided amongst four players with the starters more than likely being PK and WIII, with Edwards and Collins coming off the bench and Larsen a RS.

2. PK does not return next season, then the starters would be either WIII with Edwards or with Collins with Larsen coming in sparingly off the bench.

DukeSilver
01-05-2016, 11:26 AM
I do. Obviously his confidence is down and he spends time in Few's doghouse... but I have seen more than a 'glimmer' in his skill set. Though a soph, he's really a frosh given the circumstances last year.

His athleticism is outstanding.
His defense is solid -- Few trusts him defensively, even in tight situations. With experience, he could be 'lock down'
Contrary to what folks have posted on this board, his outside shot is good, potentially great (his confidence is just rattled)
He needs work on ball-handling and limiting TOs (not a problem unique to him)
Mopes too much, but has shown the desire to go after the ball and play with passion.

I think he's got incredible upside.

+1

I really don't understand the hate for Melson on this board, at all ... Is he playing well at the moment? Not particularly. Does he have potential to be a great Zag? Absolutely. Is it reasonable to expect him to realize his potential only one complete year into the system? Definitely not.

That should be the end of it.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 11:31 AM
+1

I really don't understand the hate for Melson on this board, at all ... Is he playing well at the moment? Not particularly. Does he have potential to be a great Zag? Absolutely. Is it reasonable to expect him to realize his potential only one complete year into the system? Definitely not.

That should be the end of it.

Why do you assume hate is the default position? It's really just disappointment

Bogozags
01-05-2016, 11:32 AM
Plenty of talent, no argument. It's skills he lacks. Hope you're right but I don't see it.

Jazz,

Silas has tons of skill/talent it is just he plays without any confidence on the offensive end. He is above average defensively and plays with heart...he just doesn't play with confidence...his shot isn't falling for him! This maybe his 2nd year but he received little playing time the last 15 games last year. Don't forget, the coaching staff and Silas both decided a RS year was in his and the teams best interest and until Josh was kicked which broke his jaw, he would not have played at all last year!

I know you don't have much of a margin for error but IMO Silas will have a positive impact on this season. If memory serves, you were not to comfortable with Josh at the point when he had so many TO's too so let's just be patient and let these kids develop at their own rate...I would love to have the market on "confidence pills" as I would have given one to Silas and Josh much earlier.

Let's just take a look at Bryan Alberts...he has a beautiful stroke but doesn't get many opportunities to display that shot;subsequently, Coach Few has not given him more minutes...Alberts just does not "look" for his shot much the same with KD...

I saw a comment on this thread about Buddy Heild playing sparingly in his freshman year...now, in his senior year he will most probably be an AA and a 1st round draft pick. Some players just take longer to develop...patients is a virtue we need to acquire as things are going to be very difficult with the loss of PK...:)

GUfan34
01-05-2016, 11:39 AM
To a professional team....probably in Europa..

I've said this 100 times but I'll say it again.

Nobody does this. Especially a player with as much potential as Sabonis. If he wanted to play pro in Europe, he wouldn't have come to Gonzaga. He wants to be in the NBA.

Nobody with NBA potential leaves college early for Europe, and he wasn't on the NBA radar last season

Bogozags
01-05-2016, 11:48 AM
I've said this 100 times but I'll say it again.

Nobody does this. Especially a player with as much potential as Sabonis. If he wanted to play pro in Europe, he wouldn't have come to Gonzaga. He wants to be in the NBA.

Nobody with NBA potential leaves college early for Europe, and he wasn't on the NBA radar last season

I can agree with this...his father is a millionaire so money isn't the issue it is the competition and the NBA has it...I believe he will be back for next season and will be a top six-10 draft pick when he leaves after his junior season.

He has the most upside of any GU player in the last ten years...heck, watch him play perimeter defence on smaller players...he does a pretty decent job and his right hand is becoming more of a weapon for him...he isn't leaving to go play for Madrid or any where in Europe...IMO

Zagnificent
01-05-2016, 12:05 PM
Jazz,
Let's just take a look at Bryan Alberts...he has a beautiful stroke but doesn't get many opportunities to display that shot;subsequently, Coach Few has not given him more minutes...Alberts just does not "look" for his shot much the same with KD...


Monninghoff had a beautiful stroke. I'm guessing that Keegan Hyland had a beautiful stroke. There have been several 3pt specialists that have come and gone from Gonzaga because they're not a dynamic enough offensive threat. Unless a player is physically able to defend and contribute in other ways to the offense, it hasn't seemed that they've done all that well at Gonzaga. I just don't necessarily see Alberts being able to justify his minutes going down the line. He's not excellent enough at more than shooting the three to keep his minutes up. He's not a bad defender, but he's not great either.

bartruff1
01-05-2016, 12:13 PM
I've said this 100 times but I'll say it again.

Nobody does this. Especially a player with as much potential as Sabonis. If he wanted to play pro in Europe, he wouldn't have come to Gonzaga. He wants to be in the NBA.

Nobody with NBA potential leaves college early for Europe, and he wasn't on the NBA radar last season

Well, that is your opinion and you are welcome to it...opinions are all about projections....and suppositions ...

Coach Crazy
01-05-2016, 12:19 PM
Based on the minutes he's getting currently, I'd say Few has very little faith in Edwards. Don't know why that would change next year, given how many big bodies there will be to choose from. We'll see.

As far as Tillie and Norvell already being better than Melson and Alberts...haven't we already made that mistake many times? In fact just last year so many were convinced Melson was already better than Bell, Jr. How did that work out? Easy to overhype a kid you've never seen before, or only seen mixtape highlights of, vs. a kid who might be struggling but has already been competing against other D1 athletes for 1 or 2 or 3 years. It would be GREAT if Norvell comes in and can knock down the 3 ball consistently, contribute in other phases of the game, and play with confidence, but you never know with freshmen.

Silas and Bryan are not now and will not Senior-version GBJ, next season. Zack is far more talented, athletic, much bigger, and has experience playing in one of the best basketball scenes in the country. Whether or not he will do what I think he can, is beside the point. Silas is playing himself close to the line of needing to transfer, and Bryan is showing flashes of being a decent role player. Silas and Bryan are also pre-"next step" recruiting.

But to answer your question better, I've never eaten an apple that tasted like an orange.

Ezag
01-05-2016, 12:25 PM
+1

I really don't understand the hate for Melson on this board, at all ... Is he playing well at the moment? Not particularly. Does he have potential to be a great Zag? Absolutely. Is it reasonable to expect him to realize his potential only one complete year into the system? Definitely not.

That should be the end of it.

Part of it is that we been hearing about this potential for 2 years now but not have really seen it or barely any flashes of it. Not only my perception just the general perception.

bartruff1
01-05-2016, 12:29 PM
Didn't Few say he had great potential....

raise the zag
01-05-2016, 12:44 PM
Overall, Perkins has been pretty damn solid, if not very good.

He's shooting 41% from 3pt. And when he's called upon -- he scores pretty much at will.

Obviously, he had TO woes to start the season. What freshman doesn't? I don't care if you're the future #1 pick, ANY starting PG for a Top-50 team is going to struggle.

His shooting has been more than a pleasant surprise, been darn-near spectacular. His passing is evolving. We know he can make the no-look pretty pass, now he's making the smart ones.

He's won TWO games for us. Without Perkins, this team is .500 and we know it.

Take out the pre-hype rankings and such. If you look at his season (he's played less than 20 games), at face value, he's been one of the better Freshman PG's in GU history ..... again, don't look at the careers or the lore, simply look at the ones who started from Day 1.

I would argue Perkins has been Top-3 Freshman PG in the Country this season.

Crazy upside with him. He spends an off-season tightening the handles and working out of traps, he's going to be special.

seacatfan
01-05-2016, 01:18 PM
Silas and Bryan are not now and will not Senior-version GBJ, next season. Zack is far more talented, athletic, much bigger, and has experience playing in one of the best basketball scenes in the country. Whether or not he will do what I think he can, is beside the point. Silas is playing himself close to the line of needing to transfer, and Bryan is showing flashes of being a decent role player. Silas and Bryan are also pre-"next step" recruiting.

But to answer your question better, I've never eaten an apple that tasted like an orange.

I think my point is valid. It's common to overhype recruits before they ever show up on campus. Some develop into good to great players, some don't.

I also disagree about timing and "next step" recruiting. Sabonis and Perkins were in the same class with Melson and Alberts. Is Norvell really a higher rated prospect than either Sabonis or Perkins? I'm excited about Collins, I really don't know where to set expectation levels for Tillie, Larsen and Hachimura. Zags have been bringing in great international talent for quite a while now, and fairly highly rated US prospects here and there like Bouldin and Daye go back quite a few years.

Mr Vulture
01-05-2016, 01:32 PM
To simplify some thoughts, without responding to each post individually. It wouldn't surprise me to see a player or two transfer out from Melson, Alberts, and Edwards. I think the obvious one would be Edwards if both Karno/Sabonis came back. I personally think that both Melson and Alberts have the talent but they haven't taken that step forward as of yet. I would hate to see either one, much less Edwards leave, although I could understand if they did. I also wouldn't rule out a senior transfer coming in for next season..particularly if a SF/Wing type were looking for a run in the NCAA's.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 01:38 PM
To simplify some thoughts, without responding to each post individually. It wouldn't surprise me to see a player or two transfer out from Melson, Alberts, and Edwards. I think the obvious one would be Edwards if both Karno/Sabonis came back. I personally think that both Melson and Alberts have the talent but they haven't taken that step forward as of yet. I would hate to see either one, much less Edwards leave, although I could understand if they did. I also wouldn't rule out a senior transfer coming in for next season..particularly if a SF/Wing type were looking for a run in the NCAA's.

Distasteful, but part of the game. Thinning the herd.

DukeSilver
01-05-2016, 01:42 PM
Part of it is that we been hearing about this potential for 2 years now but not have really seen it or barely any flashes of it. Not only my perception just the general perception.

We've seen his elite athleticism on the defensive end, and we've seen him score in bunches at times on offense. His shooting has thus far been poor, but those skills don't just disappear, and he shot 45% from 3 in high school.

Don't know why he hasn't put it all together yet, but the talk on this board seems to be almost hopeful for him to transfer, and I just think that's foolish. There are plenty of players around the country who take until their junior or senior years to emerge as complete players and Silas may well be one of them.

bartruff1
01-05-2016, 01:46 PM
Distasteful, but part of the game. Thinning the herd.

Has Gonzaga ever denied a scholarship to a player who had one ? Or do they just have a heart to heart conversation about what might be in their best interest ?

GUfan34
01-05-2016, 01:48 PM
We've seen his elite athleticism on the defensive end, and we've seen him score in bunches at times on offense. His shooting has thus far been poor, but those skills don't just disappear, and he shot 45% from 3 in high school.

Don't know why he hasn't put it all together yet, but the talk on this board seems to be almost hopeful for him to transfer, and I just think that's foolish. There are plenty of players around the country who take until their junior or senior years to emerge as complete players and Silas may well be one of them.

I haven't fully given up on Silas yet, but rarely do players go from this type of struggling to very productive

bartruff1
01-05-2016, 01:52 PM
We've seen his elite athleticism on the defensive end, and we've seen him score in bunches at times on offense. His shooting has thus far been poor, but those skills don't just disappear, and he shot 45% from 3 in high school.

Don't know why he hasn't put it all together yet, but the talk on this board seems to be almost hopeful for him to transfer, and I just think that's foolish. There are plenty of players around the country who take until their junior or senior years to emerge as complete players and Silas may well be one of them.

I don't know about " almost hopeful "....certainly not by me, but I think there is a suspicion that he wants to play big minutes, and that will be even more difficult next year.

I just hope he does what is in his best interest.....I think Draino made the right choice and certainly he could have transferred to a school and started.

BULLDOG#1
01-05-2016, 01:52 PM
I haven't fully given up on Silas yet, but rarely do players go from this type of struggling to very productive

Pargo.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 01:57 PM
Has Gonzaga ever denied a scholarship to a player who had one ? Or do they just have a heart to heart conversation about what might be in their best interest ?

Bart, you know the answer. It's just something that develops. Not overnight. Kids know, better than we do, when it's smart to leave. Not the end of the world, witness Spangs and even Gibbs. It's bizness, not personal.

bartruff1
01-05-2016, 02:04 PM
Bart, you know the answer. It's just something that develops. Not overnight. Kids know, better than we do, when it's smart to leave. Not the end of the world, witness Spangs and even Gibbs. It's bizness, not personal.

Well I know Ryan wasn't encouraged to go...who was that kid with the helicopter dad that ran around like a chicken with his head cut off....I think Gonzaga was his second or third school ?.....he might have got a pat on the butt and a gentle shove toward the door...

GUfan34
01-05-2016, 02:20 PM
Pargo.


While Pargo had a very bad freshman year, he wasn't really expected to be a big piece and his sophomore season was so much better.

Melson is halfway through his sophomore season with offensive numbers I could probably equal

seacatfan
01-05-2016, 02:32 PM
I'm not going to speculate about anyone transferring out or not, but Edwards has already used his RS year. IF he transferred to another D1 school at the end of this season, he will lose his Jr. year of eligibility and then only have one season left. Doesn't make sense. He could either go D2 and play immediately next year, or stick it out one more year and then be a 5th year Sr. grad transfer with immediate eligibility (providing that rule doesn't get changed, but it might by then).

seacatfan
01-05-2016, 02:33 PM
While Pargo had a very bad freshman year, he wasn't really expected to be a big piece and his sophomore season was so much better.

Melson is halfway through his sophomore season with offensive numbers I could probably equal

Exactly. I think Melson has actually regressed from last year.

mgadfly
01-05-2016, 02:43 PM
Overall, Perkins has been pretty damn solid, if not very good.

He's shooting 41% from 3pt. And when he's called upon -- he scores pretty much at will.

Obviously, he had TO woes to start the season. What freshman doesn't? I don't care if you're the future #1 pick, ANY starting PG for a Top-50 team is going to struggle.

His shooting has been more than a pleasant surprise, been darn-near spectacular. His passing is evolving. We know he can make the no-look pretty pass, now he's making the smart ones.

He's won TWO games for us. Without Perkins, this team is .500 and we know it.

Take out the pre-hype rankings and such. If you look at his season (he's played less than 20 games), at face value, he's been one of the better Freshman PG's in GU history ..... again, don't look at the careers or the lore, simply look at the ones who started from Day 1.

I would argue Perkins has been Top-3 Freshman PG in the Country this season.

Crazy upside with him. He spends an off-season tightening the handles and working out of traps, he's going to be special.

I like Perkins and would agree he has been good. Even this year, where there isn't a lot of great freshmen PGs, I don't think he is top 3. First, is Ben Simmons a PG? I would list him as "basketball player" since he defies traditional position labeling, but if he is a PG, he is clearly better than Perkins (He gets assists at more than double the rate, turns the ball over less, and is a more efficient scorer).

Bryant Crawford from Wake Forest shoots as well as Perkins, plays good D, and has so far distributed the ball quite a bit better.

Tookie Brown (Geo. Southern) has had a fantastic year despite being on an abysmal team. Plus, he plays his best ball against top competition. In the game I saw, he scored 20, had 4 assists, 2 steals, went 4-6 from three, and had 0 turnovers. Against Duke.

Jawun Evans from Oklahoma State has been great to watch. He is a more efficient offensive player than Perkins, plays as good or better D, and almost doubles Perkins in assist percentage. Plus, he takes care of the ball better.

Then there are at least 6 to 8 more freshmen point guards who could make a case that they've shown as much as Perkins but are limited in one area or another (usually on offense like JaQuan Lyle or Traci Carter) or sometimes on defense (see e.g. KJ Feagin).

So while I think Perkins is top 5 freshman point guards for overall game, I think that 16.9% Assist Rate really hurts him when comparing to the three or four guys ahead of him and opens him up to reasonable debates about whether there are another half dozen Frosh PGs ahead of him.

GUfan34
01-05-2016, 02:50 PM
Simmons is a forward lol

But clearly the best player in the country

Zagceo
01-05-2016, 03:05 PM
Silas is enigma. I was court side last year in Malibu.

Silas outscored Przemek, Wesley, Pangos, Bell, Drano while playing only 13 min total. We lose w/o him.

Hostile crowd with high energy and he performed at high level. I don't believe as others its a confidence issue or that he tends to 'mop".

His personality IMO is detached in a shy manner and gets mis-interpreted as moping. I'm not saying he doesn't mop.

Back to enigma. I think the switch will come on I just hope its sooner rather than later.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 03:07 PM
Well I know Ryan wasn't encouraged to go...who was that kid with the helicopter dad that ran around like a chicken with his head cut off....I think Gonzaga was his second or third school ?.....he might have got a pat on the butt and a gentle shove toward the door...


Vilarino.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 03:09 PM
I like Perkins and would agree he has been good. Even this year, where there isn't a lot of great freshmen PGs, I don't think he is top 3. First, is Ben Simmons a PG? I would list him as "basketball player" since he defies traditional position labeling, but if he is a PG, he is clearly better than Perkins (He gets assists at more than double the rate, turns the ball over less, and is a more efficient scorer).

Bryant Crawford from Wake Forest shoots as well as Perkins, plays good D, and has so far distributed the ball quite a bit better.

Tookie Brown (Geo. Southern) has had a fantastic year despite being on an abysmal team. Plus, he plays his best ball against top competition. In the game I saw, he scored 20, had 4 assists, 2 steals, went 4-6 from three, and had 0 turnovers. Against Duke.

Jawun Evans from Oklahoma State has been great to watch. He is a more efficient offensive player than Perkins, plays as good or better D, and almost doubles Perkins in assist percentage. Plus, he takes care of the ball better.

Then there are at least 6 to 8 more freshmen point guards who could make a case that they've shown as much as Perkins but are limited in one area or another (usually on offense like JaQuan Lyle or Traci Carter) or sometimes on defense (see e.g. KJ Feagin).

So while I think Perkins is top 5 freshman point guards for overall game, I think that 16.9% Assist Rate really hurts him when comparing to the three or four guys ahead of him and opens him up to reasonable debates about whether there are another half dozen Frosh PGs ahead of him.


Didn't he just play a WCC kid who is better as a frosh ?

SteelZag
01-05-2016, 03:32 PM
I'm not going to speculate about anyone transferring out or not, but Edwards has already used his RS year. IF he transferred to another D1 school at the end of this season, he will lose his Jr. year of eligibility and then only have one season left. Doesn't make sense. He could either go D2 and play immediately next year, or stick it out one more year and then be a 5th year Sr. grad transfer with immediate eligibility (providing that rule doesn't get changed, but it might by then).

Alberts is in the same boat.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 03:34 PM
Alberts is in the same boat.

No, he would have two D1 years.

NumberCruncher
01-05-2016, 03:38 PM
Didn't he just play a WCC kid who is better as a frosh ?

I assume you're talking about Watson from USF.

He's a Soph, and his Frosh numbers were just OK.

His 33 points Saturday are less impressive when you consider he took 26 shots.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 03:41 PM
I assume you're talking about Watson from USF.

He's a Soph, and his Frosh numbers were just OK.

His 33 points Saturday are less impressive when you consider he took 26 shots.

No, didn't SC have a terrific looking freshman pg?

mgadfly
01-05-2016, 03:46 PM
No, didn't SC have a terrific looking freshman pg?

That's Feagin. I think you could make a reasonable argument that he has shown as much as Perkins, but he has been less efficient offensively and doesn't give you much defensively. So even with what they've shown already being the only consideration, I'd personally take Perkins over Feagin pretty much every time. Plus, I think Perks has a much higher ceiling.

NumberCruncher
01-05-2016, 03:58 PM
No, didn't SC have a terrific looking freshman pg?

Feagin? He looks like a good player. But nothing in his stats indicate he's better than Josh.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 04:02 PM
Feagin? He looks like a good player. But nothing in his stats indicate he's better than Josh.

What exactly in Josh's numbers so far indicate he is a better prospect?

Coach Crazy
01-05-2016, 04:14 PM
I think my point is valid. It's common to overhype recruits before they ever show up on campus. Some develop into good to great players, some don't.

I also disagree about timing and "next step" recruiting. Sabonis and Perkins were in the same class with Melson and Alberts. Is Norvell really a higher rated prospect than either Sabonis or Perkins? I'm excited about Collins, I really don't know where to set expectation levels for Tillie, Larsen and Hachimura. Zags have been bringing in great international talent for quite a while now, and fairly highly rated US prospects here and there like Bouldin and Daye go back quite a few years.

And we are still talking about two different types of recruits.

mgadfly
01-05-2016, 04:14 PM
What exactly in Josh's numbers so far indicate he is a better prospect?

Perkins, 103.2 Offensive efficiency rating, 18.9% usage, 10.8% DefReb, 16.9% ARate, 24.9% TORate, 0.7% block, 2.4% stl, 51% FT, 56% FG, 42% 3PT

Feagin, 99.3 Offensive efficiency rating, 20.4% usage, 9.5% DReb, 30.6% ARate, 25.7% TORate, 0.6% block, 0.7% stl, 73% FT, 53%FG, 42% 3FG

Basically, one has been a hair more efficient offensively despite horrendous free throw shooting and considerably better defensively. The other distributes the ball twice as good. I think a reasonable argument could be made either way, but I'd take Perkins as the more complete player offensively and defensively.

Edit to add: Feagin's worst game in the WCC was a 19 pt, 5 reb, 3 asst performance against us. But his team has lost a lot as well.

NumberCruncher
01-05-2016, 04:16 PM
What exactly in Josh's numbers so far indicate he is a better prospect?

Strength of schedule.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 04:18 PM
Perkins, 103.2 Offensive efficiency rating, 18.9% usage, 10.8% DefReb, 16.9% ARate, 24.9% TORate, 0.7% block, 2.4% stl, 51% FT, 56% FG, 42% 3PT

Feagin, 99.3 Offensive efficiency rating, 20.4% usage, 9.5% DReb, 30.6% ARate, 25.7% TORate, 0.6% block, 0.7% stl, 73% FT, 53%FG, 42% 3FG

Basically, one has been a hair more efficient offensively despite horrendous free throw shooting and considerably better defensively. The other distributes the ball twice as good. I think a reasonable argument could be made either way, but I'd take Perkins as the more complete player offensively and defensively.

Edit to add: Feagin's worst game in the WCC was a 19 pt, 5 reb, 3 asst performance against us. But his team has lost a lot as well.

Hair indeed. Looks like a jump ball to me.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 04:19 PM
Strength of schedule.

Quality losses?

NumberCruncher
01-05-2016, 04:24 PM
Quality losses?

Better competition.

SOS is a stat on sports-reference.com. Go look it up.

The raw numbers are pretty even as noted. You claimed Feagin was better, but showed no evidence.

jazzdelmar
01-05-2016, 04:28 PM
Better competition.

SOS is a stat on sports-reference.com. Go look it up.

The raw numbers are pretty even as noted. You claimed Feagin was better, but showed no evidence.

Wrong. I said he was a "terrific looking freshman pg." You look it up.

NumberCruncher
01-05-2016, 04:40 PM
Wrong. I said he was a "terrific looking freshman pg." You look it up.

No problem. It's post #54 in this thread.

"Didn't he just play a WCC kid who is better as a frosh ?"

Try to keep up.

Ezag
01-05-2016, 04:56 PM
I'm not going to speculate about anyone transferring out or not, but Edwards has already used his RS year. IF he transferred to another D1 school at the end of this season, he will lose his Jr. year of eligibility and then only have one season left. Doesn't make sense. He could either go D2 and play immediately next year, or stick it out one more year and then be a 5th year Sr. grad transfer with immediate eligibility (providing that rule doesn't get changed, but it might by then).

Rather play 1 solid year then ride the pine for 2 with zero confidence by the coaching staff ...maybe?

cjm720
01-05-2016, 05:14 PM
Coach never should have made those nba comments. Silas isn't close to getting it done. Period. Horrible. I want the lights out, confident shooter we have seen. Alberts too. We need that other scoring option...

Bogozags
01-05-2016, 05:20 PM
Monninghoff had a beautiful stroke. I'm guessing that Keegan Hyland had a beautiful stroke. There have been several 3pt specialists that have come and gone from Gonzaga because they're not a dynamic enough offensive threat. Unless a player is physically able to defend and contribute in other ways to the offense, it hasn't seemed that they've done all that well at Gonzaga. I just don't necessarily see Alberts being able to justify his minutes going down the line. He's not excellent enough at more than shooting the three to keep his minutes up. He's not a bad defender, but he's not great either.

We all understand that there are still 15 games left in this season and that both Alberts and Melson and Edwards are going to have to play...we can't lock them in the closet and play with five players...

I am not understanding how so many Zag Fans can just "cut ties" with these players...they are not Bol Kong or Monninghoff or Hyland...these are basically FRESHMAN...as Coach Few stated on his show, they are being thrown into the fire!

I am and will be a fan of this team until I can no longer breathe, which maybe tomorrow but I refuse to give up on these two kids or Edwards. Edwards never played a single minute of AAU ball so he has come a long ways and will get better too, with time and experience.

This new generation is a "now" generation and have little patiences...

If these were your kids would you be so unforgiving?

P A T I E N C E S !!

GUfan34
01-05-2016, 05:45 PM
Melson and Edwards are most certainly not "basically freshman" though.

Still hope for Silas and Alberts certainly. Edwards? He is what he is.

Coach Crazy
01-05-2016, 05:47 PM
We all understand that there are still 15 games left in this season and that both Alberts and Melson and Edwards are going to have to play...we can't lock them in the closet and play with five players...

I am not understanding how so many Zag Fans can just "cut ties" with these players...they are not Bol Kong or Monninghoff or Hyland...these are basically FRESHMAN...as Coach Few stated on his show, they are being thrown into the fire!

I am and will be a fan of this team until I can no longer breathe, which maybe tomorrow but I refuse to give up on these two kids or Edwards. Edwards never played a single minute of AAU ball so he has come a long ways and will get better too, with time and experience.

This new generation is a "now" generation and have little patiences...

If these were your kids would you be so unforgiving?

P A T I E N C E S !!

I think the acceleration of expectation is a little more organic than that.

Zagceo
01-05-2016, 06:48 PM
I think the acceleration of expectation is a little more organic than that.

Well put

DixieZag
01-05-2016, 07:12 PM
Exactly. I think Melson has actually regressed from last year.

It confuses me how much of this is just a total psychological thing whereby he now doubts all his ability and truly isn't ready to take the floor mentally but we have no choice.

The guy scored like no other player in Oregon and if you recall the interview he had (has?) an amazing attitude, all about winning, important to get good academics, had a very good HS coach lauding his talent. It is true (as Jazz has rightly noted) that the blue bloods have 4-5 star kids that bust out regularly. With Silas, his body language and play just seems to scream "I don't even know who I am anymore" - that's a tough situation.

I know of no one here who either "hates him" or has "hated on him" - there is plenty of frustration and loss of hope (it is getting late), and that is part based on what is undeniably seen on the court, combined with the fact we heard he was as close to a "one and down" as we've ever had.

It's a very unusual situation and one that has to be maddening to all involved b/c we desperately need a dependable workhorse at that position. For whatever reason, it doesn't seem like it will be him - at least not this season. Perhaps he will just get hot and then find himself again. But, it's getting late. Perhaps it will be best for him personally to tx at the end of the year. One thing that seems obvious, no one is "hating on him" (what's there to hate? Seems like a good guy), and everyone is pulling for things to turn around.

maynard g krebs
01-05-2016, 08:28 PM
Just as Kentucky was the wrong system for Wiltjer, and GU is perfect for him, it seems to me that GU is the wrong system for Silas. He'd be better playing for Romar or Shaka Smart, somebody like that, pressing, creating turnovers, scoring in transition, v playing in a highly structured, pound it inside offense like the Zags. He's either forcing it or too tentative; over-thinking, imo, because he's played the game one way for a long time, and now has to play it another way. Sort of like you've been driving a stick shift, suddenly you get an automatic, and you go to shift and put your left foot on the brake where you think the clutch should be. Square peg, round hole.

I heard Dickau once in a radio interview, asked about what was the difference btw his play at UW and GU. He said, "I'm back to playing like I did in high school", and implied that UW was a bad fit for his style, or something to that effect as I recall. I've seen Jefferson play both at the MLK in Seattle and the Oregon state tourney at Mac Court, and they don't play anything like the Zags do.

Goshzagit
01-05-2016, 08:51 PM
Silas isn't adapting from his style of play (in HS) to the more structured, disciplined D1 style of play, in particular, the Zags style of play.

4 & 5 star kids never truly 'flame out'. They are too talented or athletic or gifted for that to happen in the game of basketball.

They have played the game their entire lives and were certainly rated/recruited highly as a result. It's not a fluke for any of these kids.

It's the inability to adapt -- on and/or off the court.

It's palpable as well as obvious Silas isn't adapting. The exact things Coach Few said he needs to work on last season haven't changed one iota, if anything, old habits even more prevalent.

It's not for lack of talent, rather it is not clicking. Not adapting to the next level scheme. Same can be said for college stars moving on to NBA, although sometimes that is simply attributes not being worthy enough.

For instance, you can see Perkins "adapting" his talents to the style of play. You can sense it & the results or outcome speaks for itself. He's learning and growing within the scheme.

It takes time studying the game at this level. Film room. Of yourself & opponents. It takes discipline & critique & trial & error. Some are willing to be beat down & built up....others aren't and revert to pure instincs/talent.

Must combine both to successfully adapt.

Silas is a terrific basketball talent. He probably looks like a NBA player in practice. Jump shots while moving, fade-aways off one foot, slam dunking runners, 3pt shots while dribbling, etc etc. The same stuff he tried in games. And misses time and time again.

He wasn't rated 4 star, Oregon POY, Wash/Ore game MVP, etc for no reason. He's awesome.

Just lacking the will or ability to adapt his talent to this style of play.

Even a dominant player such as Sabonis continues to adapt or else foul trouble, charges, quad-truple teams occur eventually...

Hope Silas finds his way, but there is no sign of it thus far, pretty much the exact opposite of Perkins (gets better every game).

hooter73
01-05-2016, 09:03 PM
The last two posts finally nailed it (Maynard and Goshzagit) Melson is a one on one player and there is exactly zero room for that in the GU/Few system.

cjm720
01-05-2016, 09:58 PM
Well stated, Dixie. Edited to add, and Goshag...awesome posts


It confuses me how much of this is just a total psychological thing whereby he now doubts all his ability and truly isn't ready to take the floor mentally but we have no choice.

The guy scored like no other player in Oregon and if you recall the interview he had (has?) an amazing attitude, all about winning, important to get good academics, had a very good HS coach lauding his talent. It is true (as Jazz has rightly noted) that the blue bloods have 4-5 star kids that bust out regularly. With Silas, his body language and play just seems to scream "I don't even know who I am anymore" - that's a tough situation.

I know of no one here who either "hates him" or has "hated on him" - there is plenty of frustration and loss of hope (it is getting late), and that is part based on what is undeniably seen on the court, combined with the fact we heard he was as close to a "one and down" as we've ever had.

It's a very unusual situation and one that has to be maddening to all involved b/c we desperately need a dependable workhorse at that position. For whatever reason, it doesn't seem like it will be him - at least not this season. Perhaps he will just get hot and then find himself again. But, it's getting late. Perhaps it will be best for him personally to tx at the end of the year. One thing that seems obvious, no one is "hating on him" (what's there to hate? Seems like a good guy), and everyone is pulling for things to turn around.

WallaWallaZag
01-05-2016, 10:03 PM
there is one thing about melson's athletic ability that hinders him somewhat...he seems to be a much more natural and explosive player off 2 feet than off 1, and for high-level div 1 guards it's much more important to be explosive off one foot. allows you to penetrate and finish a straight drive to the rim...melson tends to try and hop around in the lane off two feet, which works for pf's but guards not so much.

GonzagasaurusFlex
01-06-2016, 06:01 AM
Thanks for this shining example of how thread drift can sometimes leads to really interesting hoops talk and speculation Dixie, Maynard and Goshzagit. You each make the same excellent point re: what's up with Silas Melson and it rings true to me.

Having said that, it makes me wonder if there are examples of former Zags who came in with similar backgrounds in terms of being very successful in high school (presumably because of the less structured system and their exceptional athleticism and talent), but who then had to endure a tough transition period to D-1 level and playing within Coach Few's very structured system. Is it really a "if it hasn't happened by now, it ain't gonna happen ever" scenario so time for the player to consider transferring? I sure hope not.

When I read about Silas Melson sticking it out at Jefferson H.S. when all his promising, talented teammates transferred elsewhere I thought "sounds like this kid has great character and mental toughness." Are these not the very traits he needs and may in fact be exhibiting now? Who is to say the light will not go on? The fact he is taking just a few shots per game frequently now and clearly focusing on defense, rebounding etc. is to me a good sign that he is willing to adapt (sure, part of it may be his confidence is down....but usually such star athletes will just keep hoisting shots, imho).

All it takes is one break-out performance and Silas Melson may well be on his way to becoming another in a long line of fantastic Zag guards. I for one am willing to be patient and hope for the best.

Who is that former Zag guard who struggled with the same transition Silas is struggling with now? Can we get him on the phone for a heart-to-heart with this young man!? Maybe all Silas Melson needs is encouragement and a 'just stay the course and keep sawing wood' pep talk from someone who has been through the exact same transition.

MileHigh
01-06-2016, 06:30 AM
The last two posts finally nailed it (Maynard and Goshzagit) Melson is a one on one player and there is exactly zero room for that in the GU/Few system.

If you define "one on one" player as a player that takes shots outside of the offense early in the shot clock then I guess you can say there is no room for that kind of player in the Zags offense. But the ability to beat your man off the dribble is a skill that is valued in every system by every coach and I guarantee you that Melsons ability to do that is one of the main reasons Few signed him.

Melson has gone from shooting every chance he got, to now being afraid to shoot out of fear of being benched. If he can get some confidence back, I think folks will come around to seeing that he has all the skills you need to be a quality 2 guard in this system

Zagquette
01-06-2016, 07:28 AM
All it takes is one break-out performance and Silas Melson may well be on his way to becoming another in a long line of fantastic Zag guards. I for one am willing to be patient and hope for the best.

Who is that former Zag guard who struggled with the same transition Silas is struggling with now? Can we get him on the phone for a heart-to-heart with this young man!? Maybe all Silas Melson needs is encouragement and a 'just stay the course and keep sawing wood' pep talk from someone who has been through the exact same transition.

It also appears that the staff is sticking with him too. He basically played the whole second half of the USF game and played some solid d. Heck, Few even put him in the starting line-up a few weeks back hoping to give the kids a little confidence...Hoping it clicks. We need him.

Mr Vulture
01-06-2016, 09:39 AM
How is anything I posted distasteful? The entire thread above was speculation on guys leaving and bashing of the the three guys I talked about. I specifically said that if both Karno/Sabonis were back I could see Edwards transferring. I also specifically stated that I would "hate to see either one, much less Edwards" leave the program.


Distasteful, but part of the game. Thinning the herd.

webspinnre
01-06-2016, 09:47 AM
How is anything I posted distasteful? The entire thread above was speculation on guys leaving and bashing of the the three guys I talked about. I specifically said that if both Karno/Sabonis were back I could see Edwards transferring. I also specifically stated that I would "hate to see either one, much less Edwards" leave the program.

It's not you being distasteful, it's the process of encouraging transfers that's distasteful.

Mr Vulture
01-06-2016, 03:00 PM
Ok, I'm guessing someone else has done that as I certainly haven't done so. I think that having program guys is important to long term health of the team.

Coach Crazy
01-06-2016, 05:00 PM
Ok, I'm guessing someone else has done that as I certainly haven't done so. I think that having program guys is important to long term health of the team.

As long as they don't take schollies and time needed for a progressing recruiting program.

cjm720
01-06-2016, 05:11 PM
That's the hope but the transfer trends and observation of his play and role would suggest there is a chance of a transfer. I hope he sticks, as we need him badly next year with KD and EMac graduating.


We've seen his elite athleticism on the defensive end, and we've seen him score in bunches at times on offense. His shooting has thus far been poor, but those skills don't just disappear, and he shot 45% from 3 in high school.

Don't know why he hasn't put it all together yet, but the talk on this board seems to be almost hopeful for him to transfer, and I just think that's foolish. There are plenty of players around the country who take until their junior or senior years to emerge as complete players and Silas may well be one of them.

cjm720
01-06-2016, 05:13 PM
I definitely don't see Edwards transferring. He knows who has been in front of him. Coach found him before anyone. He can play. He will be a nice player when he gets the time.

hooter73
01-06-2016, 05:45 PM
If you define "one on one" player as a player that takes shots outside of the offense early in the shot clock then I guess you can say there is no room for that kind of player in the Zags offense. But the ability to beat your man off the dribble is a skill that is valued in every system by every coach and I guarantee you that Melsons ability to do that is one of the main reasons Few signed him.

Melson has gone from shooting every chance he got, to now being afraid to shoot out of fear of being benched. If he can get some confidence back, I think folks will come around to seeing that he has all the skills you need to be a quality 2 guard in this system

Thats basically what I meant by one on one. He's used to being the guy, and his game defaults to that. One on one good, one on five bad.

Bogozags
01-06-2016, 06:35 PM
It's not you being distasteful, it's the process of encouraging transfers that's distasteful.

Please explain how one can say things that are hypothetical and yet encouraging...I have said the same thing that it's a numbers and PT issue...PK returns with DS, along with WIII and Collins and then Edwards??? Some how Coach Few is going to have to do one heck of a sales job...oh, and Larsen too! That's six bigs...
Again, its hypothetical and speculation not encouraging anyone!!!

If this is a topic we shouldn't discuss then IMO make it understood we shouldn't mention it...

I personally want Edwards to stay and spend his five years at GU and not transfer, because I think he will make a big adjustment after this season, in fact it might occur this season...

I don't want any of our players to transfer...they all have character and skill as well enjoy being at GU...

Fingers crossed, prayers said...

Alum08
01-07-2016, 07:51 AM
FWIW, I've seen nothing wrong with Edwards' development to this point and have a really hard time understanding why people are so down on him. 7 footers don't usually blossom until their JR and SR years and I feel as though he's already played capably in several instances even as a Soph. He has a nice touch, soft hands, and good defensive instincts. If he can bring out the mean/nasty he could be a remarkable player. Maybe other posters have more information about him off-the-court (which seems to be the case) but as a basketball observer he hasn't led me to believe we need to lose sleep after our current frontcourt is gone.

strikenowhere
01-07-2016, 08:26 AM
FWIW, I've seen nothing wrong with Edwards' development to this point and have a really hard time understanding why people are so down on him. 7 footers don't usually blossom until their JR and SR years and I feel as though he's already played capably in several instances even as a Soph. He has a nice touch, soft hands, and good defensive instincts. If he can bring out the mean/nasty he could be a remarkable player. Maybe other posters have more information about him off-the-court (which seems to be the case) but as a basketball observer he hasn't led me to believe we need to lose sleep after our current frontcourt is gone.

From my observations, there is nothing about Edwards' game that is above average. He gets easily flustered by defenders, has a ridiculous tendency to get called for offensive fouls fighting for position, and then for some reason is completely timid when he actually gets the ball. However, the biggest indictment of his progress & potential is clearly visible in the lack of playing time he receives - the coaching staff just doesn't trust him to be on the floor. Do you honestly think the staff want to play Wiltjer & Sabonis 35 min +? If Edwards was everything some people on this board are hyping him to be, then there would have been a smooth transition from Karnowski to Edwards. This is his third year on the team, and the progress just hasn't shown (other than being much more fit). Edwards, of all the players, is going to be most impacted by Karnowski's decision regarding his future. If Karnowski stays, Edwards has to know he's destined for the end of the bench/garbage time. There are just too many players better than him that are going to be available next year. It sucks as I am sure he is a great kid, but it is what it is.

thespywhozaggedme
01-07-2016, 08:30 AM
Is JWIII (odd, that Boise State has a stud bball player named JWIII as well, James Webb III) more of an sf or pf?

Reborn
01-07-2016, 08:52 AM
Why do you assume hate is the default position? It's really just disappointment

I agree Jazz. Hate is a pretty horrible word to use when people are only speaking their minds....I don't see any hate at all....I think disappointment and confusion....I don't believe the coaches are down on anyone. They all are trying to figure out how to win, game by game. Melson, Edwards, and Alberts have all helped win games. If any poster doesn't believe that then they are blind.

I think everyone is trying their best to win. And I hope everyone is learning day by day. I have not lost confidence in anyone.
I think chemistry has a lot to do with winning. And to me chemistry is all about understand our role or our part in the playing each game. Everything flows when everyone understands this. And what a team needs changes sometimes game to game. The roles need to be fluid and flexible because what the team needs changes so often. Flexibility, and the ability to adapt to each team and what they are doing is a big key. I think Gonzaga is figuring that out, and that's what makes Mark Few such a great coach. And he will figure it out. I like the direction this team is moving in.

kitzbuel
01-07-2016, 09:28 AM
I agree Jazz. Hate is a pretty horrible word to use when people are only speaking their minds....I don't see any hate at all....I think disappointment and confusion....I don't believe the coaches are down on anyone. They all are trying to figure out how to win, game by game. Melson, Edwards, and Alberts have all helped win games. If any poster doesn't believe that then they are blind.

I think everyone is trying their best to win. And I hope everyone is learning day by day. I have not lost confidence in anyone.
I think chemistry has a lot to do with winning. And to me chemistry is all about understand our role or our part in the playing each game. Everything flows when everyone understands this. And what a team needs changes sometimes game to game. The roles need to be fluid and flexible because what the team needs changes so often. Flexibility, and the ability to adapt to each team and what they are doing is a big key. I think Gonzaga is figuring that out, and that's what makes Mark Few such a great coach. And he will figure it out. I like the direction this team is moving in.
Good post Reborn, thx.


Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

DukeSilver
01-07-2016, 10:48 AM
I think chemistry has a lot to do with winning. And to me chemistry is all about understand our role or our part in the playing each game.

See this is part of why I really respect Melson ... His role has evolved considerably this season from someone expected to provide a spark on the offensive side, to effectively a defensive specialist. He seems to have embraced this role, as I have not seen him looking aggressively to shoot, as that doesn't fit the role he's currently filling for the team, but instead giving extra hustle on D.

Say what you will about the USF game, but I saw Melson's perimeter D as a major factor in swinging the second half in our favor.

GUfan34
01-07-2016, 11:06 AM
To ask a question closer to the OP...

Does anybody know if they are even considering a medical red shirt?

Markburn1
01-07-2016, 11:16 AM
No. Feagin is very good. But, it's easy to put up numbers when playing on a team with less talent than Perkins has around him. I always hated the All League guy that scored twenty ppg on a team that went 4-12 in conference.

Markburn1
01-07-2016, 11:23 AM
Didn't he just play a WCC kid who is better as a frosh ?

No. Feagin is very good but Perkins is way more talented. It's easy to put up numbers on a team that has less talent than Perkins has around him. I always hated the guy that made All League scoring 20ppg on a team that went 4-12 in conference.

strikenowhere
01-07-2016, 11:23 AM
To ask a question closer to the OP...

Does anybody know if they are even considering a medical red shirt?

I don't think anyone outside of Shem & the staff truly know the answer to that, but I originally asked because a lot of people were speculating that he would/would not. The option is certainly on the table, as he certainly qualifies for a medical redshirt having only played in a few games and not having previously redshirted.

ProjectMKUltra5
01-07-2016, 11:37 AM
Welcome to the world of big time college basketball where if you don't produce, we're going to replace you with somebody that will. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just the nature of where we are as a program. I would rather see Edwards transfer to Montana or something and get the most out of his limited time playing college basketball then stay on the bench at GU for 3-5 years.

And I'm saying this as the biggest Silas Melson fanboy you'll find. These kids needs to show they can play at high level, now.

amaronizag
01-07-2016, 11:52 AM
Mark Few said on the Mark Few show that NOBODY knows how the Karnowski injury will play out. He said the goal now is to get him ready to play again, mentally and physically. He said Karno's goal is to play in the NBA and his rehab will be geared toward that ultimate goal. It could pan out that the process of getting him health and NBA ready will require him to return to GU next year. If so, a scholarship is available and he is certainly welcome. If he is NBA ready sooner, then so be it. Nobody knows how quickly the process will take, but GU is there to assist him every step of the way.

jazzdelmar
01-07-2016, 11:56 AM
Mark Few said on the Mark Few show that NOBODY knows how the Karnowski injury will play out. He said the goal now is to get him ready to play again, mentally and physically. He said Karno's goal is to play in the NBA and his rehab will be geared toward that ultimate goal. It could pan out that the process of getting him health and NBA ready will require him to return to GU next year. If so, a scholarship is available and he is certainly welcome. If he is NBA ready sooner, then so be it. Nobody knows how quickly the process will take, but GU is there to assist him every step of the way.

Perfect. Now can we let in lay for a few months?

vandalzag
01-07-2016, 02:13 PM
Perfect. Now can we let in lay for a few months?

Not when there is only one game this week, we are running out of things to talk about.