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View Full Version : Make the case against this starting lineup.



TravelinZag
12-21-2015, 02:42 PM
Wiltjer, Sabonis, McClellan, Alberts, and, at the point, Draginis. Perhaps not perfect, but at this point, who is better?

hockeyzag
12-21-2015, 02:46 PM
Wiltjer, Sabonis, McClellan, Alberts, and, at the point, Draginis. Perhaps not perfect, but at this point, who is better?

Draginis can't score. This is his 5th year, he's had his chance to show that he can be a great player at GU, and it just hasn't happened.

Perkins can score. We need him to get in there and get the experience he needs. Like it or not he's the player we need to improve the most.

jazzdelmar
12-21-2015, 02:47 PM
20 turnovers. KD is the worst ball handler among guards in forever.

Zaglaw
12-21-2015, 03:06 PM
20 turnovers. KD is the worst ball handler among guards in forever.

I don't know what stats you are looking at, but according to GoZags website, the turnovers for the season for the guards are:

Perkins 32 (.10 per minute played)
McClellan 18 (.07 per minute played)
Dranginis 12 (.03 per minute played)
Melson 10 (.04 per minute played)

Assists to TOs:

Perkins 1.15
McClellan .89
Dranginis 3.33
Melson 1.10

I think folks need to give KD a break.

kitzbuel
12-21-2015, 03:08 PM
KD has 12 TOs with 40 assists; Assist Turnover Ratio 3.33.

Perkins has 32 TOs with 38 assists; Assist Turnover Ratio 1.19.

Shanachie
12-21-2015, 03:11 PM
Wiltjer, Sabonis, McClellan, Alberts, and, at the point, Draginis. Perhaps not perfect, but at this point, who is better?

If it's a one game season, maybe you are right. But it isn't just about who is better at this point, it's also about how to make the team better in March. To that end, Perkins has to start and play lots of minutes.

Reborn
12-21-2015, 03:11 PM
Kyle D. is not a point guard. He never has been. He does fill in from time to time, but mostly it's McClelland who is the back up ptguard. On defense Dranginis does best when he's guarding the 3. A point guard would be way to quick for Kyle.

Ezag
12-21-2015, 03:14 PM
Yeah but Triano, Beach and Rem only have 1 TO between them....and the best air guitar on record!

U Zig, I Zag
12-21-2015, 03:16 PM
Yeah but Triano, Beach and Rem only have 1 TO between them....

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1851131/airguitarbro.gif

jazzdelmar
12-21-2015, 03:22 PM
I don't know what stats you are looking at, but according to GoZags website, the turnovers for the season for the guards are:

Perkins 32 (.10 per minute played)
McClellan 18 (.07 per minute played)
Dranginis 12 (.03 per minute played)
Melson 10 (.04 per minute played)

Assists to TOs:

Perkins 1.15
McClellan .89
Dranginis 3.33
Melson 1.10

I think folks need to give KD a break.

Wisely, he runs away from the ball and the job of dribbling.

GoZags
12-21-2015, 03:23 PM
If it's a one game season, maybe you are right. But it isn't just about who is better at this point, it's also about how to make the team better in March. To that end, Perkins has to start and play lots of minutes.

Ding. Ding. Ding.

We have a winner.

maynard g krebs
12-21-2015, 03:27 PM
Perkins and McClellan are the best guards the team has as of now. Dranginis' lack of scoring makes him a bench player, despite his many positive attributes. Melson is lost so far, and Alberts one dimensional.

Jstock12
12-21-2015, 03:31 PM
I do agree that when evaluating play-making AST/TO ratio is one of the most important things. Dranginis is our best playmaker.

Reborn
12-21-2015, 03:33 PM
I think folks need to give KD a break.

I believe all the criticism about Kyle D is warranted. He's been a disappointment to me. I expected more from him because he's a Gonzaga senior. I expected more points, and I espected more leadership. He plays scared on offense and that kind of fear, doubt, hesitation spread to the younger players. He is a steady player, and does some things very well, as we know; like rebounding and defense. But he in a terrible in bounds passer, and looks to me like he doesn't know what he's doing and has made a number of huge mistakes getting the ball in bounds. And he lacks total confidence on Offense. i'm not saying Gonzga needs him to score in double digits, but dang, can't we expect 6-9 points a game???? I mean COME ON...I'm tired of trying to stick up for him. I think its time for him to take a good look in the mirror and change his attitude. He CAN DO. I still believe he is going to. My advice to him is to just keep shooting, and keep trying to make plays, and DON'T THINK ABOUT IT. JUST GET INTO THE FLOW AND DO IT.

TravelinZag
12-21-2015, 05:32 PM
OK. Put Draginis at the 3 and EMac at point. The stats don't lie. Assist to TO ratio is horrid for Perkins. Great fan of the young man, but for whatever reason, it's not happening.

zag67
12-21-2015, 05:53 PM
For the long hall (this year and on) Perkins is the best at the point. He has work to do and that is what last year would have given him, but now he does not have A Pangos to allow him to come in as the backup. Therefore we will need to live with errors and hope that we hold on.
My starters would be Perkins, EMAC, KW, Sabonis and Alberts. Then have Dranginis and Melson come in to rest them. I think that this gives us the best crew to allow the rest for the starters. I also think that we will see many times with only one big on the floor to rest the bigs as much as possible.

zagfan94
12-21-2015, 05:55 PM
OK. Put Draginis at the 3 and EMac at point. The stats don't lie. Assist to TO ratio is horrid for Perkins. Great fan of the young man, but for whatever reason, it's not happening.

I think he'll have a lot more success starting at the 2 next year. He's looked his best when he's looking for his own shots rather than setting things up.

Hoopaholic
12-21-2015, 08:04 PM
I think we have a solid formula right now with few more minutes for edwards

Hoopaholic
12-21-2015, 08:05 PM
I believe all the criticism about Kyle D is warranted. He's been a disappointment to me. I expected more from him because he's a Gonzaga senior. I expected more points, and I espected more leadership. He plays scared on offense and that kind of fear, doubt, hesitation spread to the younger players. He is a steady player, and does some things very well, as we know; like rebounding and defense. But he in a terrible in bounds passer, and looks to me like he doesn't know what he's doing and has made a number of huge mistakes getting the ball in bounds. And he lacks total confidence on Offense. i'm not saying Gonzga needs him to score in double digits, but dang, can't we expect 6-9 points a game???? I mean COME ON...I'm tired of trying to stick up for him. I think its time for him to take a good look in the mirror and change his attitude. He CAN DO. I still believe he is going to. My advice to him is to just keep shooting, and keep trying to make plays, and DON'T THINK ABOUT IT. JUST GET INTO THE FLOW AND DO IT.
We can agree to disagree

SunDevilGolfZag
12-21-2015, 08:09 PM
Perkins made your case tonight. Shooting passing scoring and no turnovers

Outraged
12-21-2015, 08:18 PM
My thoughts are that you start the players that get the offense playing the offense. I like Alberts starting for this reason he has a calming factor and can make the 3pt and can get the offensive shot. I think the current mix exhits th emotional intelligence that defines how we play the rest of the game.

bballbeachbum
12-22-2015, 11:44 AM
just wondering if there is a chance we'll see a lineup with just one big on the floor and then JP, Emac, Alberts, KD and/or Silas? have we seen a lineup without at least 2 bigs (including KW as a big?) especially since Karno's injury? KW and Domas could keep logging the heavy minutes too, but both guys looked gassed at times last night looked like. Edwards could play more, he's coming along, good thread on that too on the board, but he does collect fouls. just wondering about it, with those 8 players, is there a small lineup that we'll see. I would say yes, especially if the guards keep stepping up as a group and earning Few's confidence, like they surely did last night

that was nice to see those breakthroughs last night

Ezag
12-22-2015, 11:47 AM
I would like to see a few games more of consistency in scoring from the guards before I say the drought is over. After 13 games, a breakout was bound to happen at some point. Now that turnovers seem to be under control the past few games, let's see if they can keep up with the consistent scoring. Edwards needs to log as many min as possible to get that in game experience when possible.

bballbeachbum
12-22-2015, 11:57 AM
I would like to see a few games more of consistency in scoring from the guards before I say the drought is over. After 13 games, a breakout was bound to happen at some point. Now that turnovers seem to be under control the past few games, let's see if they can keep up with the consistent scoring. Edwards needs to log as many min as possible to get that in game experience when possible.

don't think there is any arguing with that, not from me at least. continued growth always the key! next game out, great opportunity to express it with a recent confidence builder in the back pocket for those guys, all of them. cool to note how the game last night didn't start with the Zags going into the paint over and over again to KW or Domas, instead the perimeter guys came out firing, JP made that first one, Emac and Alberts followed with their own, etc. not until almost 3 minutes or so did the first paint shot attempt occur for the Zags, and they were already well out of the gate

so we'll see if they can stack up that winning performance with another one. Fun!! Go Zags

TexasZagFan
12-22-2015, 12:11 PM
20 turnovers. KD is the worst ball handler among guards in forever.

For all of the many heady plays KD makes, he has an annoying habit of having multi-minute brain farts during games: matador defense, lazy passes, etc. His plusses outweigh the minuses, he's earned his minutes. I'm willing to continue to give Josh the time to develop.

TexasZagFan
12-22-2015, 12:14 PM
Kyle D. is not a point guard. He never has been. He does fill in from time to time, but mostly it's McClelland who is the back up ptguard. On defense Dranginis does best when he's guarding the 3. A point guard would be way to quick for Kyle.

+1

McClellan is finding his place on the court, if only he could dial it back a notch for better control. Even then, he'd be the quickest guard on the Zags.

TexasZagFan
12-22-2015, 12:14 PM
OK. Put Draginis at the 3 and EMac at point. The stats don't lie. Assist to TO ratio is horrid for Perkins. Great fan of the young man, but for whatever reason, it's not happening.

...yet

roxdoc
12-22-2015, 12:21 PM
Last 3 games Perkins A/TO have been 12/1. Three previous games: 9/12. Yes, different competition but still I think he is building confidence, making stronger passes, in short improving. LOL his assists have not been so high because he keeps making baskets on his own. Still some work to do but I think his game is beginning to come into balance. This is not to take away from EMc, good backup at point. Nice one-two punch.

sonuvazag
12-22-2015, 12:33 PM
Wiltjer, Sabonis, McClellan, Alberts, and, at the point, Draginis. Perhaps not perfect, but at this point, who is better?

The thought occurred to me as well but more so due to his current inclination to camp out in the corner or otherwise try to get out of the way of the offense. Ideally, he would just have the confidence to become a point-like playmaker and scoring threat out of the wing like a Ginobili.

MDABE80
12-22-2015, 01:02 PM
Wiltjer, Emac, Josh, Domas and spilt ( Kyle Dranginis and Alberts...depending on the opponent.)

Next year............imagine Domas back w WIliams and Karno Tillie and so on.

Goshzagit
12-22-2015, 01:11 PM
Next year............imagine Domas back w WIliams and Karno Tillie and so on.

Domas returning a big "if".

reports of him returning as a sure-fire, set-in-stone decision are not 100% accurate.

Sabonis loves the college experience, hopes to earn a degree, and his focus is being a Gonzaga Bulldog; however, every report I've heard has him actively listening to scouts and considering the next step. His goal is NBA or stay in school, that part is certain.

Karnowski's injury may have expedited this and/or his rapid development, either way, he's projected as a 1st Round pick by every scouting service PRIOR to showing off his jumpshot, dribble crossover, passing ability, etc.

I would say its very 50-50 he returns for his junior campaign at this rate.

strikenowhere
12-22-2015, 01:13 PM
Wiltjer, Emac, Josh, Domas and spilt ( Kyle Dranginis and Alberts...depending on the opponent.)

Next year............imagine Domas back w WIliams and Karno Tillie and so on.

Why do people still think Karno is going to come back as a red shirt next year if he can't come back now? I'd put money on him not red-shirting. There is too much incentive (especially after an injury scare) to move on to a pro league to make some money. Additionally, there would be a HUGE logjam in the frontcourt. Sabonis, Collins, Williams, Edwards, Larsen,Tillie. Add Karnowski to the mix and who loses the playing time/has to redshirt? Even if Larsen & Tillie did, that still screws over Edwards (assuming he deserves more playing time), Collins, & Williams.

MDABE80
12-22-2015, 02:35 PM
"imagine" is the word. Only a few ( I don't know who they are...it's only been mentioned casually) "think" Karno's coming back. Just for the record.

DixieZag
12-22-2015, 02:52 PM
Last night: Wiltjer, Sabonis, sMac, Perkins, Alberts.

I think that is your starting line-up for the rest of the year unless something happens on the SM front whereby he is more comfortable offensively.

People keep saying Alberts is so limited. Perhaps. MOst know more than me. But, he doesn't seem that limited defensively (just needs time) and if he can just stand out there and threaten the defense with good shooting, that gives us far more to work with now that eMac and Perkins seem to be getting themselves dialed in.

bballbeachbum
12-22-2015, 05:12 PM
Last night: Wiltjer, Sabonis, sMac, Perkins, Alberts.

I think that is your starting line-up for the rest of the year unless something happens on the SM front whereby he is more comfortable offensively.

People keep saying Alberts is so limited. Perhaps. MOst know more than me. But, he doesn't seem that limited defensively (just needs time) and if he can just stand out there and threaten the defense with good shooting, that gives us far more to work with now that eMac and Perkins seem to be getting themselves dialed in.

Dixie, people don't keep saying Alberts is "so" limited. people have said he has been challenged defensively...because he has been. and yes, you could see it last night too.

BUT he brings other things to the table, things that people keep saying, too, good things

and the whole self-deprecating thing you do, come on man, give it up already Dixie :)

:cheers:

GUfan34
12-22-2015, 06:43 PM
Dixie, people don't keep saying Alberts is "so" limited. people have said he has been challenged defensively...because he has been. and yes, you could see it last night too.

BUT he brings other things to the table, things that people keep saying, too, good things

and the whole self-deprecating thing you do, come on man, give it up already Dixie :)

:cheers:


Meh, I don't think Alberts problems are defensive. Wiltjer is easily the worst defensive player on the team, but more than makes up for it on offense.

Alberts lacks aggressiveness. He's the most passive player I've seen in a long time. We've seen he's got the ability to shoot the 3 ball, now he just needs to stop looking so timid on the floor. He's 100% reactive on offense instead of proactive. If he happens to be open, he'll shoot a three. If not, he's going to pass it as soon as he touches it.. And he doesn't really make an effort to get open, either.

His defense isn't great, but it's not a problem, either.

bballbeachbum
12-22-2015, 07:43 PM
Meh, I don't think Alberts problems are defensive. Wiltjer is easily the worst defensive player on the team, but more than makes up for it on offense.

Alberts lacks aggressiveness. He's the most passive player I've seen in a long time. We've seen he's got the ability to shoot the 3 ball, now he just needs to stop looking so timid on the floor. He's 100% reactive on offense instead of proactive. If he happens to be open, he'll shoot a three. If not, he's going to pass it as soon as he touches it.. And he doesn't really make an effort to get open, either.

His defense isn't great, but it's not a problem, either.

never said he had problems my man...challenges. it's different

anyway, did you see his dribble drive pullup vs. TN? not a passive play, proactive, so right there he's not 100% reactive. Actually, that he's not out there forcing anything and is playing within himself is a good thing for this team right now, a positive to his play imo. seems he's helped stabilize the offense even, ready to shoot when open instead of afraid, so your take on his O is very different than mine at this point.

in the games we've seen, did you notice Few in more than one pulling him off the floor after some things happened to him on D? Few did that, doubt I'm the only person to note it, so disagree with you that defense hasn't been his biggest challenge. we can probably agree that his biggest opportunity has been Silas' struggles, and so far he's making the best of it. anyway, he played pretty well vs. Pepperdine, made nice strides defensively, calm player, clearly earning more trust from Few. we'll see

love your use of Meh to start your post tho :cheers:

raise the zag
12-22-2015, 08:45 PM
Alberts is passive on the court, yet doesn't match his off-court personality. He has moxie and a cool confidence about him. Swagger, but not cocky.

I chalk it up to him being grateful for PT, which was unexpected. He's trying to please…and still a freshman. It shows.

I don't think we'll always see this from him. He was dominant at times for Nederlands, and in HS, nearly unstoppable.

He can slash. He hasn't shown this ability -- or even attempted it as a Zag.

I'm excited for his game to mature. A ton to work with, a great foundation, and a player who has attributes but is humble.

He "gets it" more than many of our other young guys, sees the bigger picture and plays within that realm.

He's going to be a fantastic Zag when its all said and done.

I think one of those players like Denzel for Mich St. A 5 or 6ppg game Scorer until their Junior season…then explodes.

I sense it with him. He can already shoot, pass, play, size, body, etc. Just needs green light, confidence, and some fine tuning.

Watch for Alberts to be a go-to type player in a couple seasons.

DixieZag
12-22-2015, 10:14 PM
Dixie, people don't keep saying Alberts is "so" limited. people have said he has been challenged defensively...because he has been. and yes, you could see it last night too.

BUT he brings other things to the table, things that people keep saying, too, good things

and the whole self-deprecating thing you do, come on man, give it up already Dixie :)

:cheers:

When I said "limited" - I was referring to those who say he is limited to spot up jump-shooting. (I've just heard that generally).

My comment was that he doesn't seem to be limited defensively - I was referring to his size, length, and at least average speed, which give us options with him (especially in a zone).

Last night was the first I've seen him live. I was impressed.

TheGonzagaFactor
12-23-2015, 06:55 AM
Perkins has looked much better lately. Not the best time to yank him.

He hasn't turned the ball over these last two games and the team's turnover numbers are much better. It starts with Josh.

mtnZag
12-23-2015, 07:14 AM
Kyle D. is not a point guard. He never has been. He does fill in from time to time, but mostly it's McClelland who is the back up ptguard. On defense Dranginis does best when he's guarding the 3. A point guard would be way to quick for Kyle.

Kyle is the total team player, unselfish, and IMO too unselfish. I think he needs confidence in his shooting. Every time he is open he needs to shoot. As all good shooters know, lack of confidence makes a one tentative and that means misses most of the time. When I watch him on TV And he is open I'm yelling for him to shoot W/O being so tentative. He seems to have good mechanics.