PDA

View Full Version : It's Real Simple



LAZAGFAN11
12-12-2015, 09:25 PM
Amongst all the chaos and pandemonium on the board, I'd like to simplify it for everyone:

Both Arizona and UCLA lose if we have our starting center. Period!

As average as our guards are, we're not as bad as everyone thinks and the sky isn't falling. Just need a healthy Karnowski back. We'll be ok and March will be a good one for us.

Ezag
12-12-2015, 09:26 PM
Only if Karno can start at PG

Zags11
12-12-2015, 09:28 PM
Be prepared to be karno-less for yr.

katman50
12-12-2015, 09:28 PM
Both Arizona and UCLA lose if we have our starting center. Period

Says who? The losses are history.

Goshzagit
12-12-2015, 09:28 PM
UCLA's starting Center 8-9 FG.

Arizona's starting Center 4-5 FG.

His defense is missed most of all.

His presence speaks for itself.

Goshzagit
12-12-2015, 09:29 PM
Be prepared to be karno-less for yr.

As mentioned in earlier post, this is very realistic outcome.

jchocolate99
12-12-2015, 09:34 PM
It's real simple right now this team just isn't as good as we were hoping we'd be this year. I was definitely expecting some struggles because of the new faces in the back court but this team is under achieving point blank... Yeah we didn't have Karnowski but injuries happen and the rest of the team has to step up and the guards have to start hitting their shots... That's the reality people so with that the WCC games are going to be a lot more interesting than we've come to expect and we're gonna have to fight to get in the tourney. It's a rebuilding year and all we can hope is that the team keeps fighting like they have because the guards will be better for it next season with this trial by fire seasoning

gonzagafan62
12-12-2015, 09:35 PM
Be prepared to be karno-less for yr.

If karnowski slipped a disc as reported, we've already seen the last of him at GU

LAZAGFAN11
12-12-2015, 09:37 PM
As mentioned in earlier post, this is very realistic outcome.

If that's the case, then the expectations for this team should also adjust. Our guys are going to fight their hearts out and it's back to old school Zag basketball where we're not expected to win every night.

jpn17
12-12-2015, 09:37 PM
As average as our guards are, we're not as bad as everyone thinks and the sky isn't falling. Just need a healthy Karnowski back. We'll be ok and March will be a good one for us.

I agree that the sky isn't falling, but I disagree about average guard play. Gonzaga beats both Arizona with UCLA with average guard play. The guard play in both games was abysmal. No Karno had an effect on both games, no question about that, but I don't think that should be an excuse for how poorly the guards are doing. They are better than they've played and they need to start improving. I do believe that they will, but it is painful to watch.

LAZAGFAN11
12-12-2015, 09:41 PM
It's real simple right now this team just isn't as good as we were hoping we'd be this year. I was definitely expecting some struggles because of the new faces in the back court but this team is under achieving point blank... Yeah we didn't have Karnowski but injuries happen and the rest of the team has to step up and the guards have to start hitting their shots... That's the reality people so with that the WCC games are going to be a lot more interesting than we've come to expect and we're gonna have to fight to get in the tourney. It's a rebuilding year and all we can hope is that the team keeps fighting like they have because the guards will be better for it next season with this trial by fire seasoning

I agree that guys need to step up, but when you lose one of the best centers in the nation, the expectations need to adjust with the loss.

GUfan34
12-12-2015, 09:43 PM
Let me start off by saying YES Karnowski is s big part of what we do bad yes he is missed..

But if you think his absence is why the guards are so bad, you're lying to yourself.

I've had enough about hearing about his absence. The guards are horrible end of story.

Shaq in his prime wouldn't even fix that

thespywhozaggedme
12-12-2015, 09:45 PM
If karnowski slipped a disc as reported, we've already seen the last of him at GU

Unless he chooses to use medical redshirt which he would be eligible for

Section 116
12-12-2015, 09:49 PM
Was there any mention of Karnowski's presence at the game, or lack thereof on television? I did not see him at all in the arena. Not during the national anthem, not during warmups, not walking into the locker at halftime, not at all. Shem is big enough to pick out and I didn't see him. Anyone know??

ZAG 4 LIFE
12-12-2015, 09:49 PM
I agree that guys need to step up, but when you lose one of the best centers in the nation, the expectations need to adjust with the loss.

I'll bet this is the last time Coach Few goes into a season with only
9 scholarship players... way too thin. Now you lose your defensive anchor,
and arguably the best passer, and there are 4 fewer scholarship players to
turn to.

He rolled the dice, and it looks like it may they have come up snake eyes. :confused:

Lots of season left... let's hope they figure it out.

Zags11
12-12-2015, 09:49 PM
As mentioned in earlier post, this is very realistic outcome.

Just what I know

23dpg
12-12-2015, 09:52 PM
Was there any mention of Karnowski's presence at the game, or lack thereof on television? I did not see him at all in the arena. Not during the national anthem, not during warmups, not walking into the locker at halftime, not at all. Shem is big enough to pick out and I didn't see him. Anyone know??

It was reported he left the gym early......on crutches. Word was that he isn't moving well

ZagLawGrad
12-12-2015, 09:57 PM
It's a guard issue.

Zags11
12-12-2015, 10:13 PM
It's a guard issue.

Agree on alot but we would be 1 loss team regardless if we had karno.

GUfan34
12-12-2015, 10:22 PM
Agree on alot but we would be 1 loss team regardless if we had karno.

That might be comforting to you, but not to me.

Win or lose those games, our guards give us very little hope going forward. Games before Xmas don't matter as much as the ones in the spring. And I don't see much room for improvement

Baseline
12-12-2015, 11:07 PM
I hope the guards can grow into their positions by the end of the year, if not next year looks bleak also. Yes, Goss will help, but he is not a shooter from 3.

GUfan34
12-12-2015, 11:11 PM
I hope the guards can grow into their positions by the end of the year, if not next year looks bleak also. Yes, Goss will help, but he is not a shooter from 3.

Yeah, Goss' inability to shoot from 3 is not something I'm excited about. Not many non shooting guards have success here.

jchocolate99
12-12-2015, 11:23 PM
I agree that guys need to step up, but when you lose one of the best centers in the nation, the expectations need to adjust with the loss.

Yes, losing one of your best players is never good for any team but your BEST center is backed up by what many considers a first round draft pick and another front line man who is the pre-season national player of the year... I'm sorry Zag fans but there is enough fire power up front without Karnowski and that is FACT based on the scoring production from Wiltjer and Sabonis in the UCLA and AZ loss... The guards have to step up POINT BLANK so we need to stop sitting here talking what if's in regards to Karnowski... Yes he would've helped in our efforts to win but had we gotten better production from the guards we win.

doctorzag
12-12-2015, 11:25 PM
Unless he chooses to use medical redshirt which he would be eligible for

This will not happen for several reasons. He will be playing pro next year.

ZagLawGrad
12-13-2015, 09:53 AM
Blanchette summed it up pretty well---the guards:


Instead of stepping up Saturday night, the Zags stumbled – down a point at the last TV timeout when:

•Josh Perkins missed a free throw to tie;
•Eric McClellan missed a hurried layup on the break to take the lead;
•Perkins missed a 3 to tie;
•Perkins turned it over in traffic when he fell coming off a ball screen, the result a “pick six” for the Bruins, who scored on the break for a five-point lead;
•Kyle Dranginis missed an open 3 to tie.

Four plays to tie or take the lead and one to keep it a single-possession game, and the Bulldogs accomplished none of those things....

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/dec/13/gonzaga-doesnt-make-plays-at-critical-time-falls-t/

mtnZag
12-13-2015, 10:02 AM
Only if Karno can start at PG

Now that's FUNNY I don't care who you are ��

mtnZag
12-13-2015, 10:16 AM
That might be comforting to you, but not to me.

Win or lose those games, our guards give us very little hope going forward. Games before Xmas don't matter as much as the ones in the spring. And I don't see much room for improvement

Here's the thing. These guards came in highly touted. These guys aren't walk ons. They should have a grasp on fundamental basketball by this stage in their development. These guards, at present, are a very UNFOCUSED bunch right now!
Can they improve? Yes but we better give them a couple years...sad but true, and very unGonzaga.

All those great Gonzaga guards of years past must be shaking their collective heads right now.

GUfan34
12-13-2015, 10:27 AM
Here's the thing. These guards came in highly touted. These guys aren't walk ons. They should have a grasp on fundamental basketball by this stage in their development. These guards, at present, are a very UNFOCUSED bunch right now!
Can they improve? Yes but we better give them a couple years...sad but true, and very unGonzaga.

All those great Gonzaga guards of years past must be shaking their collective heads right now.

Couldn't agree more. Dickau and Santangelo calling just about all the games, I would LOVE to hear their conversations off the air, lol

To me, I wonder if we've lost our way on recruiting guards..... We're getting higher profile guys, but are they sure they fit what we want to do? One of the things I've said before, is that if you look at middle of the road Power conference teams, their roster is littered with recruits like Melson and Perkins, but they don't win, and they are the teams Gonzaga always beats.

Give me the under the radar, elite shooters who the PAC-12 passes on, and they come here with a chip on their shoulder over the 4 star flashy guys who impress during AAU games.... They are a dime a dozen, and unless you're a UNC or UK team, you're not getting the elite of the elite.

GIVE ME BALL PLAYERS AND SHOOTERS like Pangos, Santangelo, Dickau, etc.

seacatfan
12-13-2015, 12:01 PM
Couldn't agree more. Dickau and Santangelo calling just about all the games, I would LOVE to hear their conversations off the air, lol

To me, I wonder if we've lost our way on recruiting guards..... We're getting higher profile guys, but are they sure they fit what we want to do? One of the things I've said before, is that if you look at middle of the road Power conference teams, their roster is littered with recruits like Melson and Perkins, but they don't win, and they are the teams Gonzaga always beats.

Give me the under the radar, elite shooters who the PAC-12 passes on, and they come here with a chip on their shoulder over the 4 star flashy guys who impress during AAU games.... They are a dime a dozen, and unless you're a UNC or UK team, you're not getting the elite of the elite.

GIVE ME BALL PLAYERS AND SHOOTERS like Pangos, Santangelo, Dickau, etc.

Interesting line of thought. This seems cyclical. Off and on there have been cries for "we need bigger and more athletic guards." Even last year after the loss to Duke. Pargo and Goodson were certainly athletic and didn't really fit the mold for GU lead guards. Had mixed results. Since GU is probably never gonna get a PG that is big and athletic and can shoot, you gotta go one way or the other and accept the limitations.

jchocolate99
12-13-2015, 01:18 PM
To me, I wonder if we've lost our way on recruiting guards..... We're getting higher profile guys, but are they sure they fit what we want to do? One of the things I've said before, is that if you look at middle of the road Power conference teams, their roster is littered with recruits like Melson and Perkins, but they don't win, and they are the teams Gonzaga always beats.

Give me the under the radar, elite shooters who the PAC-12 passes on, and they come here with a chip on their shoulder over the 4 star flashy guys who impress during AAU games.... They are a dime a dozen, and unless you're a UNC or UK team, you're not getting the elite of the elite.



People relax!!! It's just one of those season where we don't have a veteran guard that can shoot who the coaching staff can depend on. These guards just have to figure it out on their own and THEY WILL... On the first highlighted point... Great coaches fit a system to the personnel they have NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. If a coaching staff is rigid and forces a players skills into a one size fits all scheme they are not good coaches and will not win many games. I will say Few has not been that rigid because if the talent and production warrants it he will fit schemes around a players talent but the point is the player needs to be productive in warranting such a thing.

Second highlighted point... You zag fans who keep spouting out this nostalgic talk of the "old" days and wanting to be the underdog team with a chip on its shoulder need to stop. Change your mindset and start acting like a fan of a powerhouse team. No I don't want to go back to the old recruiting days of looking under rocks for players and taking JUCO transfers. We are recruiting highly talented players overseas and state side and it is going to make our program better and reach the promised land of a final four. The '99 team was lightening in a bottle that doesn't happen too often... last years team was a team full of talented highly recruited players that played to their potential and got to the elite 8. It's one season (that still isn't over) out of many great seasons... bad seasons are going to happen they even happen to the Dukes and Kentucky's of the world. Just be patient good things will come to this team

GUfan34
12-13-2015, 01:35 PM
Sorry, but they aren't a powerhouse...

And FYI, I'll take a 4 or 5 star recruit that can shoot, please

Guards who can't shoot produce results like we're seeing this year.

Losing

LouisianaZag
12-13-2015, 01:48 PM
That might be comforting to you, but not to me.

Win or lose those games, our guards give us very little hope going forward. Games before Xmas don't matter as much as the ones in the spring. And I don't see much room for improvement

I see plenty of room for improvement. In fact hope for improvement
is what is keeping me going

jchocolate99
12-13-2015, 02:36 PM
Sorry, but they aren't a powerhouse...

And FYI, I'll take a 4 or 5 star recruit that can shoot, please

Guards who can't shoot produce results like we're seeing this year.

Losing

Sorry there chief but I would say nearly 20yrs of winning success and consecutive tourney appearances plus perennial top 25 rankings sprinkled with player of the year and All-American players allows us to be considered a powerhouse... Are we a Duke or Kentucky?? no we're not but we are a respected and competitive program...

Ummmm every program in the nation would take a guard who can shoot the ball??? Perkins, Alberts, Draginis, and Melson were all big time shooters coming out of high school... This isn't high school anymore and SOMETIMES high school production just doesn't carry over to the next level. Recruiting is a crap shoot sometimes players work out and sometimes they don't but it's WAY to early to give up on our young guards. It's a process that the fan base is just going to have to live with

jchocolate99
12-13-2015, 02:40 PM
I see plenty of room for improvement. In fact hope for improvement
is what is keeping me going

I agree with you LouisianaZag there is a lot of room for improvement and a very high ceiling for this crop of guards... It is up to the individual players to want to reach those heights but I'm hearing too many fans wanting to throw these guards away like trash. LET THESE GUYS LEARN AND GROW!! It's frustrating as a fan to see your team lose but its a process... a process that takes longer with some than others

maynard g krebs
12-14-2015, 12:45 AM
We're getting higher profile guys

Only Perkins of the current group of youngsters in the backcourt is a high profile recruit.

For all the hype about Melson on this board and from the coaches about NBA potential, he didn't make any top 150 that I know of. In his case, it was sort of a flyer on his "upside"; a calculated risk. But everybody made him out to be a high profile recruit, and he really wasn't.

ESPN ranked Alberts 47th at his position; rivals had him a 2 star.

McClellan's composite is 2 star out of hs. Originally Tulsa, where he earned a transfer upgrade to Vandy.

Dranginis was a 3, and rated lower than his classmates Pangos and Bell.

Bell was ranked close to Perkins; Pangos made some top 100's and played for the int'l team in the Nike hs world-U.S. game.

Four high profile recruits on this roster; Perkins and the 3 big guys.

MDABE80
12-14-2015, 02:06 AM
Just what I know

ok HOW DO YOU KNOW? Enquiring minds would like to know if you know something special? DO you have something to add? I'd like to know how you think you know. Fire away...I'd like to know.

ZagsGoZags
12-14-2015, 02:40 AM
Interesting line of thought. This seems cyclical. Off and on there have been cries for "we need bigger and more athletic guards." Even last year after the loss to Duke. Pargo and Goodson were certainly athletic and didn't really fit the mold for GU lead guards. Had mixed results. Since GU is probably never gonna get a PG that is big and athletic and can shoot, you gotta go one way or the other and accept the limitations.

S Gray, and M Bouldin were both 6.5 guards that could shoot, although I'll admit only Matt B was mostly 1 and Gray shooting guard 2, not point guard

TheGonzagaFactor
12-14-2015, 07:11 AM
I don't think Karno's presence would have won us either game. In each game, it seemed the opponent TRIED to let us take over the game late and we refused to. We just don't have the team chemistry of a top team right now.

I've seen people respond to our late game scoring droughts with "I miss Kevin and Gary!"... almost always got shut down completely late in big games.

I've seen people respond to our turnover problem with "We need Angel!"... yeah let's get the biggest TO machine we've ever had to fix our TO issues.

I've seen people respond to our issues missing bunnies with "We need Karno back!"... yeah, let's get the guy who misses the most bunnies to fix our bunny missing issue.


The issues this team are facing don't have much to do with who we have/don't have. It's just a total lack of chemistry and leadership. Can be fixed, can stay the same all year, can get worse.

cjm720
12-14-2015, 07:24 AM
Amongst all the chaos and pandemonium on the board, I'd like to simplify it for everyone:

Both Arizona and UCLA lose if we have our starting center. Period!

As average as our guards are, we're not as bad as everyone thinks and the sky isn't falling. Just need a healthy Karnowski back. We'll be ok and March will be a good one for us.

Agree 100% but come March the guards need to play much better if we want to get to the second weekend.

TexasZagFan
12-14-2015, 07:32 AM
I don't think Karno's presence would have won us either game. In each game, it seemed the opponent TRIED to let us take over the game late and we refused to. We just don't have the team chemistry of a top team right now.

I've seen people respond to our late game scoring droughts with "I miss Kevin and Gary!"... almost always got shut down completely late in big games.

I've seen people respond to our turnover problem with "We need Angel!"... yeah let's get the biggest TO machine we've ever had to fix our TO issues.

I've seen people respond to our issues missing bunnies with "We need Karno back!"... yeah, let's get the guy who misses the most bunnies to fix our bunny missing issue.


The issues this team are facing don't have much to do with who we have/don't have. It's just a total lack of chemistry and leadership. Can be fixed, can stay the same all year, can get worse.

Would also be nice if we had plays designed to get Wilt an uncontested shot at crunch time, even a triple screen if need be. IMO, we don't have a player that REALLY wants the ball when the game's on the line. We've got a few that are close, just not there yet. Ammo and Pargo are two that come to mind (Pangos usually facilitated that as a PG). Hopefully, that issue will be resolved by March.

roxdoc
12-14-2015, 08:36 AM
Hard to pull off when Wiltjer is in his 39th minute and they are triple teaming him because its a logical last chance hope

TexasZagFan
12-14-2015, 08:51 AM
Hard to pull off when Wiltjer is in his 39th minute and they are triple teaming him because its a logical last chance hope

No kidding, not even Dirk was playing 40+ minutes in his prime.

Have to find a way to limit Wilt to 32 minutes. Sabonis self regulates his minutes with his proclivity for "passion" fouls. ;)

kitzbuel
12-14-2015, 09:28 AM
Hard to pull off when Wiltjer is in his 39th minute and they are triple teaming him because its a logical last chance hope

Exactly. The defense is gonna triple Wiltjer and double Sabonis and see if one of the others can hit a shot. Percentages are in their favor.

vandalzag
12-14-2015, 09:58 AM
Couldn't agree more. Dickau and Santangelo calling just about all the games, I would LOVE to hear their conversations off the air, lol

To me, I wonder if we've lost our way on recruiting guards..... We're getting higher profile guys, but are they sure they fit what we want to do? One of the things I've said before, is that if you look at middle of the road Power conference teams, their roster is littered with recruits like Melson and Perkins, but they don't win, and they are the teams Gonzaga always beats.

Give me the under the radar, elite shooters who the PAC-12 passes on, and they come here with a chip on their shoulder over the 4 star flashy guys who impress during AAU games.... They are a dime a dozen, and unless you're a UNC or UK team, you're not getting the elite of the elite.

GIVE ME BALL PLAYERS AND SHOOTERS like Pangos, Santangelo, Dickau, etc.

Problem with your point is Pangos, Santangelo, and Dickau were all highly regarded players coming out of high school. Santangelo and Dickau also had the benefit of a redshirt year(where they could actually practice) to make themselves better before they ever suited up for the Zags. Try not to hit the panic button so quickly.