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zzzjag
12-09-2015, 02:44 PM
Here's a quick comparison of 2 Freshman PGs at GU through their 1st 8 Games-
Comparing 2 GU Freshman PGs

Min FG % 3pt% FT% REB AST STL TO PTs
Player A 28.8 29% 13% 79% 3.3 4.0 1.6 3.6 4.8

Player B 28.2 44% 37% 52% 3.7 3.2 1.5 3.6 9.7

Additional notes- Total 3Fg Made Player A 2 Player B 10


Based on Stats alone and not their future performance, who would you take after their start of their GU Career?




Player A is Jeremy Pargo
Player B is Josh Perkins

thegloriousgoateeofKP
12-09-2015, 03:07 PM
I was hoping somebody would do this.

+1000000000000000000000000

ZagsObserver
12-09-2015, 03:12 PM
Great perspective.

Ezag
12-09-2015, 03:22 PM
Good point! Pargo also had a junior named Derek Raivio on the team when he was a freshman who rarely turned the ball over, who shot 91% FT and could shoot the 3 better than anyone on this years team by a mile. In fairness, I believe Pargo was not nearly as highly touted as Perkins not even top 100 but a 3-star player. Pargos freshman year, they played 4 ranked teams in GU's first 8 games and had a 6-2 record. Pargo better dunker - LOL


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk9I6dIZFww

sittingon50
12-09-2015, 03:46 PM
Not sure where you got your stats at zzz, but the 28.8 MPG was a red flag to me. I knew Jeremy didn't play that much as a Frosh with the aforementioned Raivio on board. Here are stats from the ESPN site:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2250/year/2006/gonzaga-bulldogs

Edit to note stats are for entire season. My reading comprehension lacked (1st 8 games), though I still have a hard time believing Jeremy avg. 28.8 MPG in the 1st 8. I may have to stand blushingly corrected, however.

zzzjag
12-09-2015, 04:22 PM
Not sure where you got your stats at zzz, but the 28.8 MPG was a red flag to me. I knew Jeremy didn't play that much as a Frosh with the aforementioned Raivio on board. Here are stats from the ESPN site:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2250/year/2006/gonzaga-bulldogs

Edit to note stats are for entire season. My reading comprehension lacked (1st 8 games), though I still have a hard time believing Jeremy avg. 28.8 MPG in the 1st 8. I may have to stand blushingly corrected, however.

I didn't think he played that much either. First 8 games were much more than remainder of the season.
http://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/jeremy-pargo-player-game-log?season=2005

vandalzag
12-09-2015, 04:51 PM
Kevin after 8 games
FGM FGA FG% 3FG 3FGA 3FG% FT FTA PTS REB AST TO STL
3.75 8.63 43% 3.75 8.63 43% 3.5 4 13 2.4 3.1 1.63 1.13
Josh after 8 games
FGM FGA FG% 3FG 3FGA 3FG% FT FTA PTS REB AST TO STL
3.5 8.0 44 1.3 3.4 38% 1.5 2.9 9.8 3.8 3.3 3.6 0.1

No contest in the FT% and Asst to Turnover. All about the same especially if you throw out the WSU game for Kevin which pumps his numbers way up. Kevin also had a Stockton to lessen some of the load for him. Not saying Josh does not need to improve but when you look at the numbers it is not the end of the world. Everybody who post I miss Gary and Kevin seem to have a foggy memory of the ups and downs that happened their freshman year.

dan71w
12-09-2015, 05:10 PM
thank you, nice to have some realistic perspective.

sittingon50
12-09-2015, 05:57 PM
Well, those #'s don't seem to lie, zzz. Based on my (failing) memory I never would have guessed that Jeremy would have had such a high MPG early against really strong competition & really tailed during the WCC. Does anyone remember an injury because I sure don't remember him landing in the doghouse.

Thank you for the correction, zzz. Good to see in black & white.

MickMick
12-09-2015, 08:19 PM
I know I am treading on sacred ground when speaking of Jeremy Pargo. I know he is absolutely beloved by many, many fans.

I know he is on the verge of deity status around here. The thing is.........I could never understand why. The Pargo play I remember most is the last minute "half court pass to nowhere/turnover (http://www.king5.com/story/sports/2014/07/29/12699136/)" against #2 UConn in "The Battle of Seattle".

Regardless, I have always "gone with the flow" with respect to Pargo. Never really believing a contradictory argument to be worthwhile. Understanding the flood of resentment it would cause. It would be like dissing Santa Claus or Spiderman.


The OP's "realistic perspective" holds water for those that believe Pargo to be legendary.

Sorry, I don't share that view, hence, the perspective, for me, is not compelling. It took Pargo three years to become really, really good. It will likely take Perkins that long as well.

Zagdawg
12-09-2015, 09:03 PM
Best Zag dunker and he just made the difference to get Norvel to become a Zag.

I guess he is ok.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm914_nliNI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QphhsFSX0j0

cggonzaga
12-09-2015, 11:22 PM
I actually think Pargo is underrated around here Mick. One of the all time great leaders at GU. Not to mention he improved his game every year probably as much as any Zag. I don't think anybody saw him as a NBA guy coming out of high school. No offense to Mr. Pargo but I think Perkins has more talent and a bigger upside.

MDABE80
12-10-2015, 12:07 AM
I know I am treading on sacred ground when speaking of Jeremy Pargo. I know he is absolutely beloved by many, many fans.

I know he is on the verge of deity status around here. The thing is.........I could never understand why. The Pargo play I remember most is the last minute "half court pass to nowhere/turnover (http://www.king5.com/story/sports/2014/07/29/12699136/)" against #2 UConn in "The Battle of Seattle".




Regardless, I have always "gone with the flow" with respect to Pargo. Never really believing a contradictory argument to be worthwhile. Understanding the flood of resentment it would cause. It would be like dissing Santa Claus or Spiderman.


The OP's "realistic perspective" holds water for those that believe Pargo to be legendary.

Sorry, I don't share that view, hence, the perspective, for me, is not compelling. It took Pargo three years to become really, really good. It will likely take Perkins that long as well.

Correct Bart.........many struggled with his progress . In his Sr year he was an exciting player but he always struggled with TO's. Decent defender but didn't really light the lamp. He's done amazingly well since he left. Popular kid to be sure...........we had to wait for him though.
I suspect we'll be waiting for Josh too. Surely Silas. EMac's comign around but Alberts isn't getting his court time so we can evaluate him. Few knows though.A dunk, even a thunderous one is only 2 pts and rings us to our collect feet but..when the rim is blocking you, I think I'd rather take the layin for 2 and be happy with it.

jazzdelmar
12-10-2015, 03:35 AM
OMG, you didn't just say that!


I actually think Pargo is underrated around here Mick. One of the all time great leaders at GU. Not to mention he improved his game every year probably as much as any Zag. I don't think anybody saw him as a NBA guy coming out of high school. No offense to Mr. Pargo but I think Perkins has more talent and a bigger upside.

jazzdelmar
12-10-2015, 03:38 AM
Like MM, not a big Pargo fan and an argument could be made he was vastly overrated here. But OMG, CG, you didn't just say that Perkins has more upside. Wow!




I actually think Pargo is underrated around here Mick. One of the all time great leaders at GU. Not to mention he improved his game every year probably as much as any Zag. I don't think anybody saw him as a NBA guy coming out of high school. No offense to Mr. Pargo but I think Perkins has more talent and a bigger upside.

Birddog
12-10-2015, 05:18 AM
Awww, come on Jazz. Jeremy had an abundance of physical talent albeit untamed for much of his time at GU. He improved every year and was highly entertaining when he wasn't breaking your heart. As a Sr he played pretty good. If it hadn't been for Pargo, you never would have been able to pen your description of "throwing up chainsaws". Give him a little credit. He has sniffed around the NBA and played at the highest levels in Europe and Asia, he turned out pretty good.

jazzdelmar
12-10-2015, 06:12 AM
I did give him his props. But he got a lot better post GU. My post was in response to the comment that Perkins has more promise than JP. First he has to pass Meech to be in a position to move further up the GU point guard chain.

QUOTE=Birddog;1153412]Awww, come on Jazz. Jeremy had an abundance of physical talent albeit untamed for much of his time at GU. He improved every year and was highly entertaining when he wasn't breaking your heart. As a Sr he played pretty good. If it hadn't been for Pargo, you never would have been able to pen your description of "throwing up chainsaws". Give him a little credit. He has sniffed around the NBA and played at the highest levels in Europe and Asia, he turned out pretty good.[/QUOTE]

thegloriousgoateeofKP
12-10-2015, 06:21 AM
The overarching point is, we tend to glorify the past and mentally erase its ups and downs. All of our freshman point guards have struggled at times. AND — AND — most/all of them had an upperclassman in the backcourt with them to steady the ship.

Perkins and Melson do not. That's a big factor.

thegloriousgoateeofKP
12-10-2015, 06:27 AM
Also, how many of our past freshman point guards drained a game-winning jumper in the last 15 seconds?

vandalzag
12-10-2015, 06:52 AM
Like MM, not a big Pargo fan and an argument could be made he was vastly overrated here. But OMG, CG, you didn't just say that Perkins has more upside. Wow!

Lets see top 10 career games played and career wins
Top 3 steals and assists. Top 25 scoring
Yep vastly overrated spot on analysis. Career 52% FG and 32% 3FG. Not bad results from a 3 year starter.
Now is where you say something like stats do not matter he did not pass your eye test.

thespywhozaggedme
12-10-2015, 06:57 AM
The St. Johns/Niagara game was on at the gym yesterday and I saw a little of Mussini; the dude has confidence in spades. Made me wonder whast he would have been like had Few not cooled off on him.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3938918/federico-mussini

bartruff1
12-10-2015, 06:59 AM
Electric.....on Top Ten at Sports Center for dunks.....fearless....leader....

LongIslandZagFan
12-10-2015, 07:14 AM
The St. Johns/Niagara game was on at the gym yesterday and I saw a little of Mussini; the dude has confidence in spades. Made me wonder whast he would have been like had Few not cooled off on him.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3938918/federico-mussini

You do realize his Assist-to-TO ratio is worse than Perkins' right now, right? He also has a lower FG% and 3PT%.

Being local... I have seen Mussini more... Zags didn't lose much by cooling off on him... not to mention his upside has a much lower ceiling.

thespywhozaggedme
12-10-2015, 07:28 AM
I think I was the first one to bring him up here two years ago and even back then I said he wasnt a true pg, he's an undersized combo guard. I only saw him once and didn't compare him at all to Perkins, not sure where you got that from? But glad you have seen more of him. I think he's best suited as instant offense off the bench and should have a decent career in Europe.
You do realize his Assist-to-TO ratio is worse than Perkins' right now, right? He also has a lower FG% and 3PT%.

Being local... I have seen Mussini more... Zags didn't lose much by cooling off on him... not to mention his upside has a much lower ceiling.

Goshzagit
12-10-2015, 07:31 AM
I wonder how much Perkins' broken jaw rattled him.

It was vicious, and subsequently caused him to miss an entire season.

Now, he wears an oversized, ghastly mouth guard, in addition to shying away from contact when the going gets hot.

That said, Perkins appears to be a much better shooter than I initially thought. All signs pointing upward, especially the most clutch shooter on this team. Has proven it 3 times now.

Last shot shouldn't be Melson, he's had a couple tries now, rather Perkins, imho.

Perkins improves his ball-handling and trap passing, he will be a very very good player.

It may take another off-season, yet we can't sleep on this kid quite yet...

willandi
12-10-2015, 07:49 AM
... not to mention his upside has a much lower ceiling.

Is that just because he is shorter? Kind of likes Stocks 2?

LongIslandZagFan
12-10-2015, 08:20 AM
Is that just because he is shorter? Kind of likes Stocks 2?

From what I have watched... I don't see him improving all that much from where he is.

Birddog
12-10-2015, 08:22 AM
Last shot shouldn't be Melson, he's had a couple tries now, rather Perkins, imho.
Ya gotta give him a pass on that one against TAMU, somebody had to launch after the team played "hot potato" till there was no time left. I tend to agree though that Perkins should be the option before Melson.

TheGonzagaFactor
12-10-2015, 08:40 AM
I actually think Pargo is underrated around here Mick. One of the all time great leaders at GU. Not to mention he improved his game every year probably as much as any Zag. I don't think anybody saw him as a NBA guy coming out of high school. No offense to Mr. Pargo but I think Perkins has more talent and a bigger upside.

I don't think I could disagree more. His best was early in his sophomore year, IMO (see the way he played vs. UNC) with a steady, noticeable decline after that. He was still a good player after all that but I think he, along with many players on that 06-07 team, peaked vs. UNC and didn't ever play better than in that game. Pargo and Bouldin are clear, indisputable evidence in my mind. Both got bigger and slower after Nov. 2006. The 4 East Coast trips that year didn't help.

Not trying to start a fight or anything, I just always thought of Pargo as the standard for our struggles in developing guards. I think that if he had improved every year, he would've had 2 1st team All America selections.

cggonzaga
12-10-2015, 01:55 PM
First he has to pass Meech to be in a position to move further up the GU point guard chain.

Again, you're making me question your basketball acumen. I'm sure you think the same thing about me though. When Perkins becomes one of our better players by year end and over the course of his career I'd gladly accept a beer from you. Vice versa if I'm wrong.

Nothing to fight about Factor, just a difference of opinion. I do believe our staff made him a more in control player and was the reason he reached the NBA. I never thought of Pargo as an AA type but always a very good player for us. I'd point out one point of emphasis to my point and that is Pargo became a much better shooter over the course of his career at GU.

Outraged
12-11-2015, 06:11 AM
Perkins fails just appear more dramatically avoidable but his numbers stand-up. Big upside.

LongIslandZagFan
12-11-2015, 07:07 AM
If you take Perkins less the TOs, he has numbers comparable to Kevin's and way past Meech. TOs are mostly poor decision making and that CAN be cleaned up. Unlike many on this thread I am not willing to kick him to the curb in favor of Triano.

GUfan34
12-11-2015, 07:35 AM
If you take Perkins less the TOs, he has numbers comparable to Kevin's and way past Meech. TOs are mostly poor decision making and that CAN be cleaned up. Unlike many on this thread I am not willing to kick him to the curb in favor of Triano.


Yeah, call me when Perkins goes bonkers from the 3 point line

LongIslandZagFan
12-11-2015, 07:41 AM
Yeah, call me when Perkins goes bonkers from the 3 point line

Don't need or expect him to. He can penetrate far better than Kevin and can hit 3s. I don't think we need him to hit 7-8 3s in a game.

WallaWallaZag
12-11-2015, 08:01 AM
Here's a quick comparison of 2 Freshman PGs at GU through their 1st 8 Games-
Comparing 2 GU Freshman PGs
Min FG % 3pt% FT% REB AST STL TO PTs
Player A 28.8 29% 13% 79% 3.3 4.0 1.6 3.6 4.8
Player B 28.2 44% 37% 52% 3.7 3.2 1.5 3.6 9.7
Additional notes- Total 3Fg Made Player A 2 Player B 10 Based on Stats alone and not their future performance, who would you take after their start of their GU Career?
Player A is Jeremy Pargo
Player B is Josh Perkins

interesting comparison but i'm not sure about the relevance considering the situation...perkins is being handed the keys to a team with what were considered "reasonable" expectations to make a repeat trip to the elite eight. the expectations, fair or not, are for perkins to play significantly better than a (true?) freshman pargo and to at least replicate a freshman pangos campaign.

edited to add: want to make clear that i think perkins will be more than fine once he gets a handle on the turnovers...of greater concern to me is the emac/melson/dranginis combo at the 2/3 spots...the lack of production is killing the team much more than any of perkins' issues.