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DixieZag
12-08-2015, 08:02 PM
Glad to get the win.

So much to work on.

They were a good team, I think we need to give them that credit.

But, my god, we're not anywhere near a top team right now.

23dpg
12-08-2015, 08:04 PM
Glad to get the win.

So much to work on.

They were a good team, I think we need to give them that credit.

But, my god, we're not anywhere near a top team right now.

Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes

zagamatic
12-08-2015, 08:05 PM
Can we please just never schedule another team coached by Ken Bone again? Please!

LongIslandZagFan
12-08-2015, 08:05 PM
Bad shooting night... not all attributable to Montana D. Finals are next week... All in all ugly win, but a win. They found a way to pull out a gritty win and that will pay dividends down the road.

zagfan24
12-08-2015, 08:05 PM
Yeah, this one was disappointing. MT has a good team, but GU clearly still has a very long way to go. It was nice to see the team gut one out. That said...

We really need more leadership and are desperately missing a take-charge guy in the backcourt. Luckily Josh is starting to look the part a bit more.

Way too many lazy passes and a few really high-risk, low reward post entry passes, especially on the high-low.

Really stark lack of help-side defense on a few occasions.

Kyle Dranginis looks far more timid than I expected.

We really miss Karnowski.

Zagnificent
12-08-2015, 08:08 PM
In the last five years, can anyone remember a win that was worse than this one? A squeaker...over Montana...at home...while ranked in the Top 20. That was awful.

seacatfan
12-08-2015, 08:08 PM
I can understand why most are so concerned about the backcourt, but Perkins and McClellan both made a handful of key plays in the 2nd half, wouldn't have won without those 2. Need Melson to snap out of his funk he's been in lately. Dranginis at least took some shots tonight, but was 0-fer.

seacatfan
12-08-2015, 08:09 PM
In the last five years, can anyone remember a win that was worse than this one? A squeaker...over Montana...at home...while ranked in the Top 20. That was awful.

Nothing specific, but EVERY year in the WCC there are some really ugly nail biting wins against crappy teams that have no business hanging around against the Zags.

LongIslandZagFan
12-08-2015, 08:10 PM
I can understand why most are so concerned about the backcourt, but Perkins and McClellan both made a handful of key plays in the 2nd half, wouldn't have won without those 2. Need Melson to snap out of his funk he's been in lately. Dranginis at least took some shots tonight, but was 0-fer.

He should keep taking them. Once they start to fall he'll become a real changer for this team.

zagfan24
12-08-2015, 08:10 PM
In the last five years, can anyone remember a win that was worse than this one? A squeaker...over Montana...at home...while ranked in the Top 20. That was awful.

The first round squeaker in the NCAA's as a 1 seed.

DixieZag
12-08-2015, 08:12 PM
I can understand why most are so concerned about the backcourt, but Perkins and McClellan both made a handful of key plays in the 2nd half, wouldn't have won without those 2. Need Melson to snap out of his funk he's been in lately. Dranginis at least took some shots tonight, but was 0-fer.

Thing is - there's scant evidence that says that this is exactly what Melson is.

I've seen little indication that he's capable of consistent high level play. He's had spurts, yes. But, I'm starting to worry that this is who Melson is. A very streaky, very high risk player, not dependable at this point.

jayray
12-08-2015, 08:12 PM
Nothing specific, but EVERY year in the WCC there are some really ugly nail biting wins against crappy teams that have no business hanging around against the Zags.

+1, every year basically. There was some hustle tonight and some extra effort than what we saw before -- that is a hopeful sign. Cut down on the mental mistakes, make better decisions and clean things up and maybe they will surprise us this year, March is still a long ways away.

maynard g krebs
12-08-2015, 08:17 PM
Guards were terrible in the first half; looked shaken and lost.

But Perkins and EM both really stepped up in the second half, especially down the stretch. I saw major growth in the second half, especially finishing the game with clutch plays before and after that freak 5 point play by Mt.

Dickau or Fox said something about growing up tonite. I agree. They finished against a good team, one that beat Boise (on the road, I think?) and just wiped the floor with USF by 32.

Perkins and EM, at least, can take something positive from this going forward. Baby steps. They were tested and passed, if barely.

GonzagasaurusFlex
12-08-2015, 08:17 PM
Good seeing Perkins make clutch shots

Bad seeing Dranginis so timid and shaky offensively.

scott257
12-08-2015, 08:17 PM
There was improvement, some recognition by Perkins and McClellan that they know they need to improve and they did improve. One other positive, our guards are clearly doing well on the defensive end of the court and even while struggling on offense, they are not letting down.

Goshzagit
12-08-2015, 08:18 PM
McClellan quietly was solid.

Perkins wasn't good but clutch with his shooting again. Way too flippant with the ball again as well.

Melson was awful for 2nd game in a row, didn't looked like he belonged on the court.

Dranginis was getting burned, missing shots, timid with the ball, hesitant passing...possibly his worst game as a Zag.

Still think we MUST groom Alberts. Best shooter of the bunch, little rigid, yet I sense potential & a team player. Big mistake not logging him more minutes even with mistakes.

When Dranginis is missing he can be a liability, thus the need for Alberts as the next versatile guard/wing. What could it hurt?

Sabonis was effective as usual. Quiet but solid. Still ridiculously emotional over dumb fouls, but might be improving.

Wiltjer looked out of it. Tired. He's so good, even his half-ass effort on offense is more than good enough & usually better than the opponent. Our team and ineffective guard play puts too much pressure on him to create. He misses a pick n roll guy. Guarantee NWG makes him look like NBA all star in practice, as he's amazing at the pick n roll.

I predicted another struggle and it was. We won. Didn't look good, especially defensively in 2nd half, but clutch down the stretch.

Melson was pitiful, same with my favorite, Dranginis. I liked McClellan this game. Perkins bailed himself out again with key shots. Sabonis solid. Wiltjer in scrimmage mode but works. Alberts still needs more run. Edwards had nice upside and warrants more consistent PT.

We won. Cool.

Going to get our butt whipped by UCLA unless Karno returns.

And he 'might'.

DixieZag
12-08-2015, 08:21 PM
There was improvement, some recognition by Perkins and McClellan that they know they need to improve and they did improve. One other positive, our guards are clearly doing well on the defensive end of the court and even while struggling on offense, they are not letting down.

I think that's important to note. Our defense is better than it's been in a while. Thank god.

We MUST fix the beginning of 2nd half give-back of 6-9 points. We have had one game this year where we came out and shut a team down cold coming out of the half and that was Pitt. Since then, seems like we've struggled every game.

TacomaZAG
12-08-2015, 08:21 PM
UGLY win................but a win.

Perks and EMac stepped up at the end, maybe turning the corner.

Draino absolutely invisible again. A starter who is scoreless the last 2 games. He is a real liability on the offensive end...............

Why not give Alberts some minutes and some rope in games like this. The team is going to need his 3-point shot later in the year.

UCLA could be a really ugly affair if there aren't some immediate improvements in the back court and Karno is still out.

Go ZAGS

scott257
12-08-2015, 08:28 PM
I think that's important to note. Our defense is better than it's been in a while. Thank god.

We MUST fix the beginning of 2nd half give-back of 6-9 points. We have had one game this year where we came out and shut a team down cold coming out of the half and that was Pitt. Since then, seems like we've struggled every game.

You are right about the give back at the beginning of the second half, but that came from the Montana big man that had been virtually shut out in the first half.

thespywhozaggedme
12-08-2015, 08:30 PM
In the last five years, can anyone remember a win that was worse than this one? A squeaker...over Montana...at home...while ranked in the Top 20. That was awful.

Montana is good, they beat Boise State

thespywhozaggedme
12-08-2015, 08:33 PM
The UCLA that beat Kentucky or the UCLA that lost to Monmouth?
McClellan quietly was solid.

Perkins wasn't good but clutch with his shooting again. Way too flippant with the ball again as well.

Melson was awful for 2nd game in a row, didn't looked like he belonged on the court.

Dranginis was getting burned, missing shots, timid with the ball, hesitant passing...possibly his worst game as a Zag.

Still think we MUST groom Alberts. Best shooter of the bunch, little rigid, yet I sense potential & a team player. Big mistake not logging him more minutes even with mistakes.

When Dranginis is missing he can be a liability, thus the need for Alberts as the next versatile guard/wing. What could it hurt?

Sabonis was effective as usual. Quiet but solid. Still ridiculously emotional over dumb fouls, but might be improving.

Wiltjer looked out of it. Tired. He's so good, even his half-ass effort on offense is more than good enough & usually better than the opponent. Our team and ineffective guard play puts too much pressure on him to create. He misses a pick n roll guy. Guarantee NWG makes him look like NBA all star in practice, as he's amazing at the pick n roll.

I predicted another struggle and it was. We won. Didn't look good, especially defensively in 2nd half, but clutch down the stretch.

Melson was pitiful, same with my favorite, Dranginis. I liked McClellan this game. Perkins bailed himself out again with key shots. Sabonis solid. Wiltjer in scrimmage mode but works. Alberts still needs more run. Edwards had nice upside and warrants more consistent PT.

We won. Cool.

Going to get our butt whipped by UCLA unless Karno returns.

And he 'might'.

Goshzagit
12-08-2015, 08:33 PM
Why not give Alberts some minutes and some rope in games like this. The team is going to need his 3-point shot later in the year.



Been saying this the past 5 games...

What could it hurt?

Thee best shooter. Pretty athletic. Solid post passer. Seems OK ballhandler. Most unselfish guard. Can defend the half court, still learning transition D.

Point is, needs grooming. Upside is obvious. We will NEED his shooting by season's end, if not now.

This isn't a case against Dranginis whatsoever. Kyle is a do-it-all guard with a terrific +/- ability, yet he's like 2-15 last few games. He's in a funk. He, himself, admitted he's most comfortable coming off the bench...

Just saying we will need Alberts as the next versatile guard when Dranginis struggles or need a scoring presence.

Bryan Alberts was the leading scorer for Netherlands u-20 team this off-season & already some scoring punch in games he's logged minutes.

Stopped getting mins when he went 0-2 one game & struggled in transition defense. I've seen guards on this team do so much worse and not lose PT.

Biggest thing I see missing last 4 games:

Karno injury/missing

Alberts lossed PT

Neither is helping thus far...

Much better team WITH Karno & Alberts shooting 5 shots a game...right?

MickMick
12-08-2015, 08:38 PM
Time to readjust expectations. It looks very much like Few's worst team.

Just punching a post season ticket should be considered a big achievement for this group.

BYU has not looked all that great this season. If ever there was a time for a mid tier WCC team to emerge, it appears that this is the season. Opportunities like this are rare for the rest of the conference. Who can take advantage?

I expect a lot of streaks to end this season. We knew it couldn't last forever.

DixieZag
12-08-2015, 08:42 PM
I can't tell how much of this is the loss of Karno?

Some. Yes. He gets easy buckets, makes buckets inside for the other team difficult. And, takes some heat off Sabonis.

But, these problems seem focused so much on the 1-3. Yes, Perk and eMac played better. I still feel like they're underperforming (offensively)

And the problems out front are taking away from our most effective weapon, KW. Teams can seemingly blanket him PLUS, he seems to have no clue where to go b/c the guards have no idea how they're supposed to get him the ball.

KD? Melson? right now? Hurting us, bad. LIzF says Melson needs to see some shots go down. I hope he's right, but we've really been waiting a while. I realize he had the 3 in a row against UCONN, but otherwise . . KD is trying to be a glue guy when we need more of a leader and we need more scoring from his spot and it's just not happening. We're playing 4-5 offensively. Hurts.

Agree with others. 5 minutes of Alberts a half, cannot possibly hurt.

thespywhozaggedme
12-08-2015, 08:44 PM
What couldn't last forever?
Time to readjust expectations. It looks very much like Few's worst team.

Just punching a post season ticket should be considered a big achievement for this group.

BYU has not looked all that great this season. If ever there was a time for a mid tier WCC team to emerge, it appears that this is the season. Opportunities like this are rare for the rest of the conference. Who can take advantage?

I expect a lot of streaks to end this season. We knew it couldn't last forever.

DixieZag
12-08-2015, 08:45 PM
Time to readjust expectations. It looks very much like Few's worst team.

Just punching a post season ticket should be considered a big achievement for this group.

BYU has not looked all that great this season. If ever there was a time for a mid tier WCC team to emerge, it appears that this is the season. Opportunities like this are rare for the rest of the conference. Who can take advantage?

I expect a lot of streaks to end this season. We knew it couldn't last forever.

Wow. That is strong.

I won't dismiss it out of hand, respect your comments too much.

But, we are still so strong up front - just can't see it from the back court.

We still have a top 24 recruit running the point.

I don't think this team is quite at that level.

Though - had they lost tonight. . . .

Keep in mind, we are not playing with our 7-1 senior center.

GrizZAG
12-08-2015, 08:47 PM
What is it about the general offensive flow of this team? Can't put my finger on it but it seems we keep hunting for a lane and aren't able to find many nor do we seem to be executing plays very well. Experts have at it....all ears (eyes :)

cjm720
12-08-2015, 08:48 PM
My admiration for Kevin Pangos and Gary Bell grow each game.

btzag
12-08-2015, 08:57 PM
The lack of confidence infecting the whole team right now is shocking. I think the only two immune are Wiltjer and Karno and obviously the latter is hurt. Of course our guards are struggling but Sabonis and Dranginis are right now the two shockers for me. Sometimes forcing, sometimes hesitant, usually frustrated, just completely out of sorts for a really talented player and a veteran all-around player. Going to be a roller coaster year but don't forget this team can also beat just about anybody in the country.

DixieZag
12-08-2015, 09:31 PM
Michigan State last year lost to Texas Southern at home. That was a week after we beat them by 25.

Just saying.

Though - schools like that get to get better through a gauntlet of great conference teams.

We don't.

We need the UCLA game, badly. It will set us up fairly well going into conference.

I just see no way we can win it without Karno and a complete re-boot backcourt.

VinnyZag
12-08-2015, 09:39 PM
This is far from Few's worst team, but there are plenty of reasons to be worried. Mostly Perkins and Melson. I'm still a believer, mostly because so many people who know more than me have said they're good. But it would be really nice to see them both play well for an extended period of time, soon.

Does anyone have any insight on why Alberts is only seeing a few minutes? I haven't noticed him doing anything egregious. He seems like the best natural shooter among the perimeter guys and he's long enough to be a good defender. What's he doing wrong?

MDABE80
12-08-2015, 09:44 PM
Emac and Perks made some shots and played some defense. Still, they're playing like individuals. I don't get the sense of "team" so far this season. DOmas is still pretty young but, even thought he boards and scores, it's not like he doesn't need a leader that puts his role in place for him. Wiltjer's playing distracted like he's got a petulant girlfriend who's demanding his attention. He's just so incosistent this yar whereas last year he was a very consistent player.
Karno's loss is looking bigger by the game.
We've won some games but tonight, we looked a big rudderless.
As a talented group. they get B. As a team , Cminus or D.
With 8 games in, I'd say Few's biggest challenge will be to turn this group into a team like we're used to seeing.
Tonight, we got away with one. Guys are not putting in a daminant performace. Time will tell.
Melson looks disconnected from the rest of the group. Shoots, and slinks away. Defense is not a D1 performance.
We're not deep this year. We need all hands functioning as a unit. Hope it happens. With 1/4th of the season gone, this seems to be the biggest issue.

mtnZag
12-08-2015, 09:46 PM
Defense won this game. They did what any good team does when shots aren't dropping...play really tuff defense and we did that.

hooter73
12-08-2015, 09:58 PM
Alberts hasn't gotten the time on court for the same reason any of them don't; performance in practice. Gotta remember few has his reasons that we fans don't know while we watch the fun on the magic box. The staff is with them the better part of the day, every day, every week.

Zagricultural
12-08-2015, 09:59 PM
Agree with those saying we need Alberts. I was being few to put him in. Tell him he needs to aggressively hunt his 3's.

Zagceo
12-08-2015, 10:01 PM
KD and Melson 0-10 from the field. Against 155 Montana

Ezag
12-08-2015, 10:10 PM
KD and Melson stinking it up. I've been watching Gonzaga basketball since 1998 and I don't remember having this tough a time watching guards play for the zags...

The sky may very well be falling

coolhandzag
12-08-2015, 10:10 PM
My admiration for Kevin Pangos and Gary Bell grow each game.

A poster previously referred to Pangos as a "trooper". He and Bell were far more than that.

ZagWhoShotLibertyValance
12-08-2015, 10:11 PM
mtnzag is right on; when the going got tough in the 2d half, the defense stepped up and stopped (ok, except that last possession, when MT just missed the shot)-- Perkins had a good night tonight (Did Heister call him Jenks a couple of times?) and his 2d half was fine. He has a couple of good performances and they are all things to be built upon; Melson, Dranginis, were both not good tonight, Karno was non-existent (thats a joke, gentle reader) getting sick and tired of Sabonis’ whining, but he is still my favorite Zag, Edwards is growing.

Zags were not prepared to play a scrappy, very good team (seriously, I could see Montana in the 2d round of the NCAAs-- if I was Jazzdelmar I would make some snarky comment about seeing the Zags there also) and DID NOT Step up until the defense was needed in the last six or seven minutes.

Seriously, watch the last six or seven minutes-- Montana is playing very well, trying to protect the ball and work for good shots. But our defense stepped up.

That was why we won.

A bad team would have lost to Montana tonight-- all the momentum was there for the big upset. But our defense actually stepped up and was what won the game tonight.

Also Emac really p*ssed off the Montana fans watching with me; he was the guy, despite a number of errors, who made critical shots, stops, saves in the critical moments.

I ended the game thinking better about Perkins and Emac, worse about Melson, a little frustrated with DS and his constant whining, and looking forward to seeing Karnowksi again.

Which UCLA shows up Saturday? Which Perkins? Both of those questions will determine the result of the game on Saturday.

Ezag
12-08-2015, 10:12 PM
A poster previously referred to Pangos as a "trooper". He and Bell were far more than that.

They were f****** wizards with the ball

zagamatic
12-08-2015, 10:25 PM
Is it just me, or is Karno's absence felt most in the hi-low big to big? That, to me, is why the offense seems so out of sorts. The hi-low game just isn't ythere right now with him out.

CDC84
12-08-2015, 10:49 PM
The bottom line is that Karno, Wiltjer and Sabonis are by far and away GU's best three players. If you remove one of them, and then group the 2 remaining guys with guards who are prone to turning the ball over and missing jumpers, well, the team is going struggle.

CdAZagFan
12-08-2015, 11:05 PM
Time to readjust expectations. It looks very much like Few's worst team.

Just punching a post season ticket should be considered a big achievement for this group.

BYU has not looked all that great this season. If ever there was a time for a mid tier WCC team to emerge, it appears that this is the season. Opportunities like this are rare for the rest of the conference. Who can take advantage?

I expect a lot of streaks to end this season. We knew it couldn't last forever.

MickMick... Hang in there. Tonight was shaky and guard play has been questionable at best. But we have played some tough teams early in this season and, while we could have lost another game or two, we could just as well be undefeated. These early tests are good. I agree I have tempered my expectations a bit (from being a very high seed come tourney time), I still think this team will improve over the length of the season and could still end up doing some damage in the tourney.

zagsfanforlife
12-09-2015, 12:13 AM
Time to readjust expectations. It looks very much like Few's worst team.

Just punching a post season ticket should be considered a big achievement for this group.

BYU has not looked all that great this season. If ever there was a time for a mid tier WCC team to emerge, it appears that this is the season. Opportunities like this are rare for the rest of the conference. Who can take advantage?

I expect a lot of streaks to end this season. We knew it couldn't last forever.

Well damn. Does this mean me and my dad should list our Final Four Houston tickets on stubhub already?

ZagsGoZags
12-09-2015, 01:37 AM
a great win
takes guts to win those kind, and saw real effort from Josh and Eric, it was nice to see
but
the one thing that bothered me was Few's willingness to play Domas and Kyle W. down to the nubbins again, I just couldn't believe in the third quarter he was not bringing Edwards in to spell them, so they would have good legs in the last 6 minutes of the game
I don't get that - I guess Ryan is far less of a contributor to the team in coaches eyes

GonzagasaurusFlex
12-09-2015, 05:35 AM
What is it about the general offensive flow of this team? Can't put my finger on it but it seems we keep hunting for a lane and aren't able to find many nor do we seem to be executing plays very well. Experts have at it....all ears (eyes :)

I'm definitely noticing the poor offensive flow too. It's as if they (guards really) just do not run the offense with conviction, missing sharp passes that penetrate the defense. Instead, they settle for passing it around the perimeter most of the time.

A telling example was Melson at one point (shortly before Triano came in) got the ball on the left wing, Sabonis was available for a pass in the post, but instead Melson dribbles towards the baseline and shoots an off-balance midrange jumper. Just a dumb basketball play. Coach Few is an offensive guru kind of coach, but for some reason his guards are just not running his sets with conviction.

Did you notice when Triano came in he did two things...took a good looking wide-open 3 that was a clean shot the offense created for him (even though he missed), and on another possession he received ball and immediately snapped off a sharp pass feeding Sabonis (I think) inside. He just ran the offense with conviction....obviously a downgrade athletically/defensively, but man this team needs a guard who will just run the offense with sharp, smart passing and willingness to shoot the wide open shots the offense creates.

Zagnificent
12-09-2015, 05:50 AM
The hi-lo action from big to big is key. The players most adept at finding our bigs also happens to be our bigs. Our offense is most effective when running that hi-lo action, and it was almost totally absent.

Birddog
12-09-2015, 06:02 AM
The pick and roll was almost nonexistent.

Zagcity
12-09-2015, 06:32 AM
Going to get our butt whipped by UCLA unless Karno returns.
And he 'might'.

PK was not to be seen during pregame warm ups. If I were basing a decision on how gingerly Karno was walking around and his posture. He won't be playing against UCLA. :(

vandalzag
12-09-2015, 07:02 AM
Time to readjust expectations. It looks very much like Few's worst team.

Just punching a post season ticket should be considered a big achievement for this group.

BYU has not looked all that great this season. If ever there was a time for a mid tier WCC team to emerge, it appears that this is the season. Opportunities like this are rare for the rest of the conference. Who can take advantage?

I expect a lot of streaks to end this season. We knew it couldn't last forever.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-Iznv2gqY4

GUfan34
12-09-2015, 07:33 AM
My admiration for Kevin Pangos and Gary Bell grow each game.

Same... And I admit, I was one of the "Pangos and Bell were overrated" guys during the offseason. I was excited about bigger and more athletic guards. Boy was I wrong. Made me appreciate what we had for FOUR years with Bell and Pangos. They pretty much got it from day 1. These guards have experience and they still don't get it. Pangos and Bell never really had a learning curve. We were very lucky.

I think instead of getting on Few for coaching, we need to look at the reality of recruiting. Just because we get a 4 star recruit like Perkins, doesn't mean he's going to be superior to what we had. If you look at a mediocre team in a High Major conference, for example, NC State, you'll see that pretty much all of their recruits are 4 star guys. Yet they aren't that great. They are the type of high major team who Gonzaga usually beats. Shoot, the elite teams have rosters littered with 4 star guys that never even play!

I think Gonzaga's best guys have been under the radar guys that we lucked out on, or got in early on, international guys who we've sort of cornered the market on, or, like the old days, the guys who weren't cut out for "pac 10" schools and come to Gonzaga with a huge chip on their shoulders. Seems like a lot of the big named recruits haven't lived up to expectations. Just sayin'. Once you start going after the top rated guys, instead of guys you think fit your system best, you end up with... Well, mediocrity like the middle of the road high major programs like NC State.

JPtheBeasta
12-09-2015, 08:06 AM
I'm preparing myself emotionally for a team with a backcourt full of Demetri Goodsons- oozing with talent, makes spectacular plays, but isn't able to make the simple ones with consistency.

The writing might have been on the wall when Perkins' numbers dropped off on when he moved to the the team in high school with all of that elite talent. Maybe he doesn't have enough of the alpha dog mentality to lead an elite college basketball team. Time will tell. I love Dranginis and wish he was more assertive as well, as he is the senior leader in this backcourt. We know what we have in Dranginis, but hopefully Perkins just needs to come out of his shell.

I'm hoping to see these guys be less timid and finish at the rim more, as non of them are knock-down shooters at this stage. The other team is trapping the ball handler on screens, and a few drives to the hoop would slow this down. Arizona created the recipe for beating his team and it's time for GU to adjust.

Stache
12-09-2015, 08:08 AM
I wonder if tentative guard play could be a hang over from the front court hype (defer to upperclassmen getting publcity).

IMO the offense is klunky right now due to lack of motion due to our front court focus. It's not a bad thing to have such a strong front line and to feed it, but We do tend to get stagnant and watch when KW gets ball or DS gets it low. These are great options with our best offensive played. PK return is a huge key because his passing from the post brings flow to the offense and tends to leave our guards with good looks .

Team currently reminds me of the second half of the league season when Josh H was suspended. Offense was spotty and sporadic. Some games they looked great and others they just couldn't get anything going. In the end they improved through the adversity, won with defense and grit, and by the end they were tougher as a result of the adversity. This team is whole lot more talented and they will be very good by mid February. Try to enjoy watching growth and development. Besides, this is the same board that laments peaking too early almost every year, right?

Stache
12-09-2015, 08:11 AM
BTW - saw Ken Bone at Spokane Airport at 0 dark thirty this morning and congratulated him on team and tough, well played game. Very cordial and friendly guy. Now, let's never schedule one of his teams in the kennel again.

Jakester425
12-09-2015, 08:31 AM
Time to readjust expectations. It looks very much like Few's worst team.

Just punching a post season ticket should be considered a big achievement for this group.

BYU has not looked all that great this season. If ever there was a time for a mid tier WCC team to emerge, it appears that this is the season. Opportunities like this are rare for the rest of the conference. Who can take advantage?

I expect a lot of streaks to end this season. We knew it couldn't last forever.


It's been 8 games, chill out. No one one knows how good or bad a team is this early.

FYI I'd be saying the same thing if someone said we were going to the Final Four after only being 8-0.

soupy07
12-09-2015, 08:35 AM
BTW - saw Ken Bone at Spokane Airport at 0 dark thirty this morning and congratulated him on team and tough, well played game. Very cordial and friendly guy. Now, let's never schedule one of his teams in the kennel again.

Several posters have joked about not scheduling a Ken Bone coached team again but I think we underestimate his impact coaching against Gonzaga. He's seen the Zags so many times, is so familiar with the system and is certainly not intimidated by them. Similar to when we played Bill Grier's USD teams...no matter the talent gaps (real or perceived) you just expected that the game would be a backyard brawl.

DixieZag
12-09-2015, 08:52 AM
I'm definitely noticing the poor offensive flow too. It's as if they (guards really) just do not run the offense with conviction, missing sharp passes that penetrate the defense. Instead, they settle for passing it around the perimeter most of the time.

A telling example was Melson at one point (shortly before Triano came in) got the ball on the left wing, Sabonis was available for a pass in the post, but instead Melson dribbles towards the baseline and shoots an off-balance midrange jumper. Just a dumb basketball play. Coach Few is an offensive guru kind of coach, but for some reason his guards are just not running his sets with conviction.

Did you notice when Triano came in he did two things...took a good looking wide-open 3 that was a clean shot the offense created for him (even though he missed), and on another possession he received ball and immediately snapped off a sharp pass feeding Sabonis (I think) inside. He just ran the offense with conviction....obviously a downgrade athletically/defensively, but man this team needs a guard who will just run the offense with sharp, smart passing and willingness to shoot the wide open shots the offense creates.

One way to get Melson, Drainginis, et. al's attention is to give Triano real minutes. Show that people that commit to the system and can run it will play.

Ezag
12-09-2015, 08:58 AM
It's been 8 games, chill out. No one one knows how good or bad a team is this early.

FYI I'd be saying the same thing if someone said we were going to the Final Four after only being 8-0.

You mean almost 1/3 into the regular season we don't know what's going on??? That may be true on some aspects, but we're getting a pretty good idea. I think Saturday's game is gonna be a huge tell sign in knowing where we are.

Mike83814
12-09-2015, 09:13 AM
One way to get Melson, Drainginis, et. al's attention is to give Triano real minutes. Show that people that commit to the system and can run it will play.

Totally agree. I'd love to see Melson benched for a while and let Alberts/Triano start. At first, the only reason I thought he was starting was his defensive abilities. After seeing him give up the potential game-tying shot last night, even that's in question. He's one of the first guys I've seen come through the program that I would really be OK with seeing him transfer. Even Nunez I thought might've had some good potential if he'd managed to buy in.

JPtheBeasta
12-09-2015, 09:16 AM
Just a thought, but we know that the bigs cam fill it up, so maybe it would help to run some plays for the guards to get some easy buckets early. I seem to remember old teams where a play would be drawn up early for players like Mamery Dialo just to get him involved. I would like to see some stuff like this for Dranginis and others to boost the confidence and take some hesitancy out of their game.

john montana
12-09-2015, 09:26 AM
Totally agree. I'd love to see Melson benched for a while and let Alberts/Triano start. At first, the only reason I thought he was starting was his defensive abilities. After seeing him give up the potential game-tying shot last night, even that's in question. He's one of the first guys I've seen come through the program that I would really be OK with seeing him transfer. Even Nunez I thought might've had some good potential if he'd managed to buy in.

Melson doesn't start, and he was flat out shoved on that last shot. I can't really blame him when the offense player pushes you down with two hands in order to catch the ball and shoot it. Should have been an offensive foul. Granted, Melson has played terrible most of the year, but he is by far out most talented to guard. I don't see the answer on the bench. Alberts can shoot, but can't handle the ball or keep the offense moving. Triano isn't a high level D1 player. We are thin in the backcourt. Just the way it is this year. We need to ride with Melson and hope he develops. You know he has the tools.

I feel the same way about Perkins. Just have to live with a few bonehead passes and hope he makes those plays less and less as the season continues. To me, it comes down to Melson and Perkins. If they grow and get better we will be fine. If not, it is going to be a long year. I would ride with those two and bring Emac in as the third guard off the bench. Alberts would play some, but mostly as the 3...not as a primary ball handler.

Could be a long season.

vandalzag
12-09-2015, 09:35 AM
Totally agree. I'd love to see Melson benched for a while and let Alberts/Triano start. At first, the only reason I thought he was starting was his defensive abilities. After seeing him give up the potential game-tying shot last night, even that's in question. He's one of the first guys I've seen come through the program that I would really be OK with seeing him transfer. Even Nunez I thought might've had some good potential if he'd managed to buy in.

Wow that is brilliant you are calling for a player to transfer out and you do not even know that he is not a starter. Way to bring something solid to the discussion.

RenoZag
12-09-2015, 09:37 AM
Watched a recording of the game after I returned from a business trip. . .did not know the outcome in advance and I really thought at one point the video was going to unveil another Zags loss.

They have to learn how to win without Karnowski. They took some steps in that direction last night.

uZiGiZaG
12-09-2015, 09:41 AM
Guards were terrible in the first half; looked shaken and lost.

But Perkins and EM both really stepped up in the second half, especially down the stretch. I saw major growth in the second half, especially finishing the game with clutch plays before and after that freak 5 point play by Mt.

Dickau or Fox said something about growing up tonite. I agree. They finished against a good team, one that beat Boise (on the road, I think?) and just wiped the floor with USF by 32.

Perkins and EM, at least, can take something positive from this going forward. Baby steps. They were tested and passed, if barely.

No offense, but this was not "finishing against a good team"

uZiGiZaG
12-09-2015, 09:43 AM
Wow that is brilliant you are calling for a player to transfer out and you do not even know that he is not a starter. Way to bring something solid to the discussion.

Really? Step back. Your feelings are clouding your judgement. He's giving his opinion. RELAX.

Jakester425
12-09-2015, 09:47 AM
You mean almost 1/3 into the regular season we don't know what's going on??? That may be true on some aspects, but we're getting a pretty good idea. I think Saturday's game is gonna be a huge tell sign in knowing where we are.

To say you know how the season is going to finish after only eight games is ridiculous.

There were so many on this board the last week of last season that were saying we wouldn't make it out of the first weekend of tournament.

I personally will give this team some more time before I jump to any extremes.

LongIslandZagFan
12-09-2015, 09:48 AM
SMH.

Ezag
12-09-2015, 09:55 AM
To say you know how the season is going to finish after only eight games is ridiculous.

There were so many on this board the last week of last season that were saying we wouldn't make it out of the first weekend of tournament.

I personally will give this team some more time before I jump to any extremes.

I wouldn't say it's ridiculous- yes, maybe premature, but there are consistent patterns emerging even after 8 games that should set off some bells which we know it has. Hopefully, this team is a late bloomer. We're spoiled fans. Only time will tell

Zagceo
12-09-2015, 10:13 AM
Perkins comment


“I thought he was awful early and awful to start the (second) half,” Few said. “And then to his credit he made some big plays and that’s not easy to do in the world of sports or in life. … So I was proud of him there.”


Few: “We made some plays. That was a big rebound by Domas, good free throws by Wiltj, Josh stepped up and made some shots and Eric kind of got off the schneid and made some plays. I’m hoping that will get them going. They’re making the game a little too hard and maybe feeling the pressure of playing here and getting off to a rough start.”
Montana second-year coach Travis DeCuire: “It was the best defense we’ve played since I’ve been at Montana.”

link (http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/sportslink/2015/dec/09/day-after-montana/)

jim77
12-09-2015, 11:05 AM
Interesting game. Can't say that I've been underwhelmed with a Zags game like that in a long time. Then again when a team plays a solid zone against you AND a key big is out AND you're Guards are still finding their sea legs it tends to lead to games like that. I thought Perkin's best play of the night was his open Jumper near the end of the game that he buried. Those shots grow a guy...Perkins played pretty good....especially when he keeps moving and doesn't become a stagnant target to be trapped. The other GUARDS need to learn to screen for each other....they need to do it every trip up the floor. It tires defenders and produces open shots. Sometimes during the game I had this thought of REC ball....then thoughts of UCONN and and UW came to my mind....Karno does more than we know. The other thing that bothered me was our fast breaks....especially off of steals...did we even make one? I think we'd be better of if the guy stealing it just pulled up and launched a 3...prolly would be a higher % shot. The other thing I'd tell the guards...its better to shoot an open 10 footer than drive into 4 guys and miss. I still think EMAC can create havoc but, he needs to do it off of set plays and clearouts cause his mad rushes into 3 players aren't working....I still want to see him continue to get to the hoop...speed is a weapon. In another weird observation...I thought the teams poise on the last few critical possessions was EXCELLENT. It was almost like the were thinking: We know we haven't looked to great this game....but MT is going home with an "L". Keeping poise in a close game is a GOOD thing.

This Zags team needs to remember that its better to score off of well run plays that lead to open shots rather than athletic rushes... cause if you face a more athletic team...its you're only way to get a bucket. .Zag ball is still about screens and passes and open shots and movement which I'm starting to see too many guys standing around. Make the opposing team work hard...make them playoff screens.....constantly...work them...don't just think you can out athlete them. We won't out athlete UCLA...but I think the guys can take them down....if they play smart.

I also think EMAC and KD can make Bryce Alford have a long day...and he is the key guy to stop.

vandalzag
12-09-2015, 12:58 PM
Really? Step back. Your feelings are clouding your judgement. He's giving his opinion. RELAX.

Sorry saying a player should transfer out is garbage and out of line. Especially when the one posting does not know the player is a starter or a sub.

ZagLawGrad
12-09-2015, 06:21 PM
I'm preparing myself emotionally for a team with a backcourt full of Demetri Goodsons- oozing with talent, makes spectacular plays, but isn't able to make the simple ones with consistency.

The writing might have been on the wall when Perkins' numbers dropped off on when he moved to the the team in high school with all of that elite talent. Maybe he doesn't have enough of the alpha dog mentality to lead an elite college basketball team. Time will tell. I love Dranginis and wish he was more assertive as well, as he is the senior leader in this backcourt. We know what we have in Dranginis, but hopefully Perkins just needs to come out of his shell.

I'm hoping to see these guys be less timid and finish at the rim more, as non of them are knock-down shooters at this stage. The other team is trapping the ball handler on screens, and a few drives to the hoop would slow this down. Arizona created the recipe for beating his team and it's time for GU to adjust.

Good post, JP

ZagLawGrad
12-09-2015, 06:27 PM
Time to readjust expectations. It looks very much like Few's worst team.

Just punching a post season ticket should be considered a big achievement for this group.

BYU has not looked all that great this season. If ever there was a time for a mid tier WCC team to emerge, it appears that this is the season. Opportunities like this are rare for the rest of the conference. Who can take advantage?

I expect a lot of streaks to end this season. We knew it couldn't last forever.

Can't disagree with Mick so far this season.

zag67
12-09-2015, 06:51 PM
I am going with the statement that our guards are young and need more experience. I do not think I understood how important Karnowski is to this team. he is the person that the offense goes through and makes KW and Sabonis better players. He also puts so much pressure on their bigs that when the other bigs replace him, they are tired. When he is back, this team will look so much better. Screens run through Karnowski. He makes it easier for our guards to get to the right places. We shot terrible, but we were taking the correct shots and were patient. So I think we will see them just keep getting better.

therocket
12-09-2015, 07:03 PM
Long time lurker. Don't think I've ever posted. Had too in this case.
The negativity is embarrassing on this board. Some perspective may be appropriate for many. I've read that Few should be fired, some players should transfer out, this will be the worst season in 20 years ect. It's been 8 games into a season, coming off of 18(?) consecutive dances and now the sky is falling?.... Gimme a break. Part of it is that those same few that are so negative now we're the ones predicting 30-3 type season. Really 30-3? Do you not understand how hard that is? Be grateful for what gonzaga has done and will continue to do. I'm not hopping off the train.
I get that some critism is warranted at times and we all have our two cents to give but......come on.

Also, the zags are 6-2!

bartruff1
12-09-2015, 07:25 PM
Sorry saying a player should transfer out is garbage and out of line. Especially when the one posting does not know the player is a starter or a sub.

Absolutely

TheZagPhish
12-09-2015, 08:21 PM
Be grateful for what gonzaga has done and will continue to do.

Nice to hear from you, rocket. Keep posting, please. :D

Reborn
12-09-2015, 09:39 PM
Long time lurker. Don't think I've ever posted. Had too in this case.
The negativity is embarrassing on this board. Some perspective may be appropriate for many. I've read that Few should be fired, some players should transfer out, this will be the worst season in 20 years ect. It's been 8 games into a season, coming off of 18(?) consecutive dances and now the sky is falling?.... Gimme a break. Part of it is that those same few that are so negative now we're the ones predicting 30-3 type season. Really 30-3? Do you not understand how hard that is? Be grateful for what gonzaga has done and will continue to do. I'm not hopping off the train.
I get that some critism is warranted at times and we all have our two cents to give but......come on.

Also, the zags are 6-2!

They've only lost two!!!

Go Zags!!!

Reborn
12-09-2015, 09:56 PM
I agree with those who also notice that the pace, or rhythm to the offense is just terrible. There is NO cohesion on most plays. There is very little chemistry. To me, the pace is too fast. I know Few likes to play fast, but the uptempo has not helped the Zags in the least. Right now the guards are just not good enough ball handlers or dribblers to push the pace.

It is a fact that the Zags have not been playing good. If you cannot see that then you are wearing blinders. If you know anything about basketball you know the Zags look really bad right now, including Dranginis. Dranginis did play the worst game of his career and he almost cost us the game by a very, very stupid foul that he committed when running through a screen, and his man made the 3. The screener that he fouled made both free throws for a 5 point play. No one has pointed that out yet. And now he goes scoreless for two games? As Tommy said, "there needs to be some soul soul searching." I totally agree.

I'm not saying that Draino is not good. He is. I also agree he should be one of our top three players, as he's a senior. BUT he is not playing like he is. Sorry, CDC I just don't think he is. I do not advocate that they bench him for anyone. I just hope he is one who does some soul searches, and that he's able to recognize his importance to the team and begins to play like eveyone knows he can. I will not stop cheering for him to find his game.

Melson needs to study video of the games and take a good look at himself. He needs to look at his facial expressions and his body language. He needs to see what we see. He is NOT helping the Zags AND is hurting them. I'm not giving up on him either. I like him a lot, and just hope that he can understand what it is to be a Zag, and stop playing for himself and play for the team. He needs to lose his ego. BAD.

I loved how the team stepped up in the closing minutes of the Montana game. I believe they have hit their bottom, and we're gonna see a different and better team play Saturday against UCLA. I think they will turn it around.

amaronizag
12-09-2015, 10:28 PM
I watched the game, and then I watched the replay of the above mentioned Draino foul several times, and I still don't understand the call. Draino runs into the screen and knocks over the screener. A second later, a 3 point shot is launched and made. It was obvious to me that the foul occurred before the shot was launched. Why does the foul count AND the shot that was launched AFTER the foul also count????? Never seen that before in my life. How can they both count???? Please explain. What did I miss???? The ref's went to the monitor, where it was obvious the foul came before the shot. How can the foul count and the shot after the foul also count??? Haven't seen that discussed here yet. Never saw that before in my life.

maynard g krebs
12-10-2015, 12:31 AM
No offense, but this was not "finishing against a good team"

None taken; it's a subjective statement. I just meant the top teams in the lower leagues play sound basketball, and play with intelligence and efficiency. To me, a good basketball team is one that plays good team basketball, as I thought Montana did. And they have a high major player in the middle. Fox and Dickau agreed with me from the comments I heard.

Plainsman
12-10-2015, 07:57 AM
Long time lurker. Don't think I've ever posted. Had too in this case.
The negativity is embarrassing on this board. Some perspective may be appropriate for many. I've read that Few should be fired, some players should transfer out, this will be the worst season in 20 years ect. It's been 8 games into a season, coming off of 18(?) consecutive dances and now the sky is falling?.... Gimme a break. Part of it is that those same few that are so negative now we're the ones predicting 30-3 type season. Really 30-3? Do you not understand how hard that is? Be grateful for what gonzaga has done and will continue to do. I'm not hopping off the train.
I get that some critism is warranted at times and we all have our two cents to give but......come on.

Also, the zags are 6-2!

There is some real common sense observation here. I have followed the Zags passionately for several years (since my son attended and graduated from GU), have read this board for some time but haven't posted a lot. Seriously, I have never before seen anything resembling some of the ridiculous 'melt down' comments showing up on this board this year. The hysteria level is over the top.

Reborn
12-10-2015, 07:58 AM
I watched the game, and then I watched the replay of the above mentioned Draino foul several times, and I still don't understand the call. Draino runs into the screen and knocks over the screener. A second later, a 3 point shot is launched and made. It was obvious to me that the foul occurred before the shot was launched. Why does the foul count AND the shot that was launched AFTER the foul also count????? Never seen that before in my life. How can they both count???? Please explain. What did I miss???? The ref's went to the monitor, where it was obvious the foul came before the shot. How can the foul count and the shot after the foul also count??? Haven't seen that discussed here yet. Never saw that before in my life.

I agree with you. I was angry when I saw that call, and I am surprised Bilas didn't say something abut it. It was called before the shot. That was a five point play and that was huge.

LongIslandZagFan
12-10-2015, 08:24 AM
I agree with you. I was angry when I saw that call, and I am surprised Bilas didn't say something abut it. It was called before the shot. That was a five point play and that was huge.

Because Bilas was announcing a different game? :D

BavarianZag
12-10-2015, 08:28 AM
I am going with the statement that our guards are young and need more experience. I do not think I understood how important Karnowski is to this team. he is the person that the offense goes through and makes KW and Sabonis better players. He also puts so much pressure on their bigs that when the other bigs replace him, they are tired. When he is back, this team will look so much better. Screens run through Karnowski. He makes it easier for our guards to get to the right places. We shot terrible, but we were taking the correct shots and were patient. So I think we will see them just keep getting better.

^This

True, the guard corp is struggling, but (IMHO) coach is putting them in a position where it is tough to succeed by sticking so steadfastly to his offensive sets. Yes, they need to learn that offense to excel going forward, but you need to be a little more willing to change things up when situations and/or personnel change. Without Shem, we are missing the best passer in our half-court offense. His high-lo stuff is amazing; his tosses out of double teams are well timed; he even sees skip passes others don't, which gets the opposing D off balance and over-rotating. He is a HUGE man, with HUGE abilities in the half-court O for us.

All that said, these guards struggle in the same sets without him. Why not do a few reps of pressing and trapping to get a team like the Griz to rush and make mistakes? Not to mention, it could help to get our guards some easy buckets and build confidence. Don't scrap the O, just change things up.

Nevermind our perimeter D is as good as it's ever been.

I don't disagree that our guards need more work, but when you're playing at the other team's chosen tempo, why not adjust and take the fight to them. I see other teams (AZ comes to mind) do exactly that against us, and it works.

I hesitate to mention this, but it is exactly what makes Coach K the best coach in basketball. He adjusts his sets to the talent he can put on the floor, not the other way around. This is the philosophy- and it works in nearly every walk of life.

"Don't have rules, have standards"
“When I [was the head coach at] West Point, we had a bunch of rules, all of which I didn’t agree with,” Krzyzewski tells Sitkin. “Usually when you’re ruled, you never agree with all the rules, you just abide by them. But if you have standards and if everyone contributes to the way you’re going to do things, you end up owning how you do things.”

Edited to add:
I am not a Mark Few hater. Quite the opposite. I personally think he is the best fit for the program. But, his steadfastness (is that a word?) is his biggest strength and his biggest weakness. I see his coaching changing to be more adaptable, over the years, but it's a slow gradual change. Just who he is....he's conservative.

SWZag
12-11-2015, 09:58 AM
Montana visits UW at 3p tomorrow. Would love to see Montana play like they did against us and get a win.