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raise the zag
11-13-2015, 04:51 PM
http://cdn.pazoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Rancho-Cucamonga-Home-Mortgage-First-Time-Home-Buyers-Randy-Charlton-Keller-Williams-Realty-Homer-Simpson-Doh.png

raise the zag
11-13-2015, 04:53 PM
Our post defense is equally 'doh'.

Slick floor or not, doesn't explain silly TO's.

Gotta give Melson more opportunity especially if Perk & McClellan are going to be passive/timid.

raise the zag
11-13-2015, 05:25 PM
http://cf.chucklesnetwork.com/items/9/9/1/4/1/original/hot-mess-you-are.jpg

CdAZagFan
11-13-2015, 05:27 PM
Roles for all these guys will start to sort out and develop as we go along - I believe it's too early to categorize these guys (especially without the ability to use their speed today)...

CDC84
11-13-2015, 05:28 PM
Get used to it. The staff is going to have to experiment to see which combinations work. Ideally, they would be playing an easier schedule to figure it all out, but that's just the way it is. They're in a tough situation this year.

CdAZagFan
11-13-2015, 05:28 PM
Was hoping to see some good basketball tonight...bummed that it turned out the way it did, but with that floor, that didn't even resemble a basketball game.

Pargo the Destroyer
11-13-2015, 05:31 PM
how many threads you going to start about how bad the guards were? you would think one would suffice.

maynard g krebs
11-13-2015, 05:37 PM
IMO the superb guard play the last 4 years has been taken for granted. This team's a work in progress. I saw enough good things to feel ok about it. Would have been great to see how they adjusted in the second half, but it's hard to take anything from play under these conditions anyway.

BULLDOG#1
11-13-2015, 05:38 PM
It's wrong to judge them while playing on that floor. EMac and Perkins rely on quick feet and hard cuts -- impossible on that floor.
Both teams are fortunate there wasn't a major injury.

GonzagasaurusFlex
11-13-2015, 05:43 PM
I saw enough to know I am no longer a fan of playing all three bigs together.
My preferred lineup is now: Perkins, Melson, Dranginis, Wiltjer, Karnowski. Sub in McClellan and Sabonis to up the defensive intensity.

DixieZag
11-13-2015, 05:43 PM
IMO the superb guard play the last 4 years has been taken for granted. This team's a work in progress. I saw enough good things to feel ok about it. Would have been great to see how they adjusted in the second half, but it's hard to take anything from play under these conditions anyway.

This.

One half, weird environment, high pressure, our bigs not doing a lot well, silly to take too much away from 20 minutes. And we certainly did take for granted "near mistake-free backcourt basketball" the last few years.

The good thing is that I think these guys' ceiling is higher and maybe we'll be like the power boys who have such turnover they start so raw every year, but by the end of the year are coming on strong. We've seen it a million times.

ProjectMKUltra5
11-13-2015, 05:45 PM
I'm more worried about spotting the other team a lead because we're starting the big 3 rather then the guard play. That's a rather a simple answer, Josh Perkins needs to be more assertive.

gobroncsgozags
11-13-2015, 05:47 PM
It's wrong to judge them while playing on that floor. EMac and Perkins rely on quick feet and hard cuts -- impossible on that floor.
Both teams are fortunate there wasn't a major injury.

I agree 100%. Take away anyone's strengths and they look pretty pedestrian. Neither will be the game manager Pangos was, but have strengths he didn't. The floor took those away from them tonight. I can't take much away from this game other than it was great to finally see the Zags again.

Goshzagit
11-13-2015, 05:50 PM
WIN --- LOSE --- OR DRAW.

We needed this game more than they did.

Rpi Wise. SOS wise.

ZagsObserver
11-13-2015, 05:51 PM
I agree 100%. Take away anyone's strengths and they look pretty pedestrian. Neither will be the game manager Pangos was, but have strengths he didn't. The floor took those away from them tonight. I can't take much away from this game other than it was great to finally see the Zags again.

That's why you assess in a relative sense. They didn't look good relative to Pitt's guards.

GoZags
11-13-2015, 05:53 PM
WIN --- LOSE --- OR DRAW.

We needed this game more than they did.

Rpi Wise. SOS wise.

That won't be an issue. While it won't show on the "official' SOS or RPI it WILL be discussed "in the room" on Selection Sunday ..... no question about it.

Goshzagit
11-13-2015, 05:54 PM
That won't be an issue. While it won't show on the "official' SOS or RPI it WILL be discussed "in the room" on Selection Sunday ..... no question about it.

Good point. It will be discussed. We played.

Didn't perform very well, but we still played...

zagfan24
11-13-2015, 05:57 PM
3 of the 5 guards in our rotation are playing their first meaningful minutes. McClellan looked a bit off but his speed was the most affected factor by the floor. Dranginis looked pretty good to me.

It's going to take time. The transition from 4-year starters to this group was never going to be easy. In addition to their own growth, the "bigs" are getting used to playing with guards that are better slashers than outside shooters. It's an adjustment process all around.

BULLDOG#1
11-13-2015, 05:58 PM
i disagree. I'm not sure the Pitt guards could have stayed in front of Emac or Perk. Just different skill sets. Not fair comparison.
I'm happy the zag guards didn't push the limit on that floor and get injured.

jazzdelmar
11-13-2015, 06:05 PM
Aren't KW and DS so much fun to watch. Breathtaking BB players.

bartruff1
11-13-2015, 06:10 PM
Aren't KW and DS so much fun to watch. Breathtaking BB players.

yes

TexasZag
11-13-2015, 06:10 PM
That won't be an issue. While it won't show on the "official' SOS or RPI it WILL be discussed "in the room" on Selection Sunday ..... no question about it.

I disagree. First game of the year on that floor? Players had to be playing timid to try to prevent slips and injury. And in spite of the conditions, the Zags were able to recover from an early deficit to take the lead again (even though they were down at the half). So how can the committee on Selection Sunday give it any credence? There's no way that learned adults can pretend to draw anything from that 20 minutes. On the contrary, I believe we caught a bit of a break. That failed attempt at a basketball game will be purged from the memories of anyone that matters.

SunDevilGolfZag
11-13-2015, 06:11 PM
It's wrong to judge them while playing on that floor. EMac and Perkins rely on quick feet and hard cuts -- impossible on that floor.
Both teams are fortunate there wasn't a major injury.

This post is right on and no more need be said

cggonzaga
11-13-2015, 06:12 PM
Agreed Bulldog1 and gobroncs. No way to tell what are guards are. That floor took our guards out of their games completely. I thought our guards looked more athletic and quicker when we weren't sliding all over the floor.

Iceman
11-13-2015, 06:25 PM
Perkins and Melson had flashes. I wish Few would keep them on the floor and just let the kids develop.

McClellan is just brutal on the offensive end.

Rio Runner
11-13-2015, 06:27 PM
Perkins and Melson had flashes. I wish Few would keep them on the floor and just let the kids develop.

McClellan is just brutal on the offensive end.

Agreed.

MickMick
11-13-2015, 06:36 PM
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt due to the floor conditions.


I have believed from the start of summer that the best two guards on the team are Perkins and Dranginis. That is with respect to taking advantage of what the team collectively does best.


This is all about effective post entry feeds and none do it better than those two......Except for possibly the other bigs using the "High-Low" pass.

On edit:

Seriously. I don't care if the guards can score except for Perkins. Just get Wiltjer open and feed him the ball or get it down low to Sabonis/Karno. What was dissapointing was how the Pitt guards were draining perimeter shots. The GU guards were supposed to have the length and speed to handle that. Instead of contesting, we were giving three shots at the foul line.

Martin Centre Mad Man
11-13-2015, 06:52 PM
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt due to the floor conditions.


I have believed from the start of summer that the best two guards on the team are Perkins and Dranginis. That is with respect to taking advantage of what the team collectively does best.


This is all about effective post entry feeds and none do it better than those two......Except for possibly the other bigs using the "High-Low" pass.

I agree. It is hard to tell much about this backcourt from the limited action we've seen, but I suspect that Perkins and Dranginis will emerge as the most reliable players over time.

I will give EMAC a partial pass due to the floor conditions. EMAC is a player whose game is very dependent on speed. He lacks a reliable jump shot, so he needs to be able to outrace defenders to contribute to the offense. He is at his best when attacking the basket or weaving through gaps in the defense. He could not showcase his speed on that slippery floor.

VinnyZag
11-13-2015, 07:47 PM
I wouldn't make too many conclusions based on 20 minutes of basketball played under the weirdest possible conditions.

jpwils
11-13-2015, 07:55 PM
I wouldn't make too many conclusions based on 20 minutes of basketball played under the weirdest possible conditions.

Had these observations; Pitt played harder ( with the exceptions of Sabonis and Wiltjer).

Conditions were same for both teams- their guards did more-offensively and defensively.

Our defense was lousy.

Karnowski personally blew at least 3 two footers. Looked disoriented out there. so did Melson.

Maybe Karno and Melson are not really ready for primetime minutes( is Karno still recovering from pneumonia?? Is Melson
really aware of the opportunity he has ??

Overall i was very disappointed in the Zags effort, which is new for me. Sabonis and Wiltjer played great and deserve praise.

Hopefully they will be hungrier as a team next time.

Thought Pitt looked and played like the team deserving a top 10 ranking- not us.

tyra
11-13-2015, 08:42 PM
1) we will lose more games this year than last
2) we will be as tough or not tougher come tourney time
3) 20 minutes on an ice rink means very little even if the other team had the same conditions
4) our guards will take time to develop and will not be able to live up to this board's preseason high expectations

cggonzaga
11-13-2015, 08:44 PM
I'm disappointed by some of our board members. Not sure how anybody can take anything from 20 minutes of basketball on that court. The players literally could not move normally. And to call out Karno who has proven himself in primetime is ridiculous. Especially after only returning to the court 2 weeks ago. Calling out Melson? Really? He was one of the bright spots in that half. I thought this board was more knowledgable than what is being shown today.

roxdoc
11-13-2015, 08:56 PM
second game in a row: we start with the big 3, play terrible defense, fall significantly behind. One of bigs comes out and we slowly muddle our way back to fairly even. Worked with EOU, tougher nut with Pitt who looked a lot more ready to play. Throw in the floor and its anybody's game.

Hard to know which backcourt combo is best at this point - only that they are better than the starters. Better to toy with getting them figured out than experimenting with the 3-bigs.

Pargo the Destroyer
11-13-2015, 08:59 PM
I'm disappointed by some of our board members. Not sure how anybody can take anything from 20 minutes of basketball on that court. The players literally could not move normally. And to call out Karno who has proven himself in primetime is ridiculous. Especially after only returning to the court 2 weeks ago. Calling out Melson? Really? He was one of the bright spots in that half. I thought this board was more knowledgable than what is being shown today.

I think one of the biggest gripes with Karno is that he has a propensity to lower his potential field goal percentage by not dunking the ball. At 7 feet tall and not terribly un-athletic it should be the norm that he just flushes the rock when he is point blank.

2wiceright
11-13-2015, 09:22 PM
I think one of the biggest gripes with Karno is that he has a propensity to lower his potential field goal percentage by not dunking the ball. At 7 feet tall and not terribly un-athletic it should be the norm that he just flushes the rock when he is point blank.

Twice, when Wiltjer wasn't shooting from 40 feet, a nice pass was delivered to Karno, he went up hard for the flush and TWO of their big guys hit him hard just before he dunked. I think the word is out it's better to foul him (thank goodness he's brought his getting better at free throws... I think the stat they showed was mid 60 percent range). So I don't know what else is expected of the guy. Reminds me of the Sacre days when "everyone collapsed". Thank God for Wiltjer from downtown....

Pargo the Destroyer
11-13-2015, 09:51 PM
Twice, when Wiltjer wasn't shooting from 40 feet, a nice pass was delivered to Karno, he went up hard for the flush and TWO of their big guys hit him hard just before he dunked. I think the word is out it's better to foul him (thank goodness he's brought his getting better at free throws... I think the stat they showed was mid 60 percent range). So I don't know what else is expected of the guy. Reminds me of the Sacre days when "everyone collapsed". Thank God for Wiltjer from downtown....

Good call there, Im certain its an easier said that done kind of thing. The only thing he can do is just continue to attack the rim. Its better to get fouled trying to go strong than get swatted when trying to get cute and lay the ball in.

jpwils
11-14-2015, 08:41 AM
I'm disappointed by some of our board members. Not sure how anybody can take anything from 20 minutes of basketball on that court. The players literally could not move normally. And to call out Karno who has proven himself in primetime is ridiculous. Especially after only returning to the court 2 weeks ago. Calling out Melson? Really? He was one of the bright spots in that half. I thought this board was more knowledgable than what is being shown today.

If you are calling me out for calling it as I saw it, I'm sorry but I just don't see the intensity from Karno this season ..yet. True he has proven against weaker opponents but not so much against his own ability /size /strength level.

Melson looked out of sync to me, altho he did have some moments of noteworthiness. Pitt looked alot hungrier than us and they sustained injury from slippery floor as well.

Again, i am praising Sabonis and Wiltjer and I think Karno will do better soon....but I think we need not get into some sort of p------ contest
just because I am sharing honest evaluations....Pitt played like the higher ranked team last nite and hopefully our team will be " quickened".
I do not post this with any great satisfaction- if u check my posts u will see that I am often very positive on this board and I never post to please the other posters.

ZagsGoZags
11-14-2015, 09:09 AM
the whole world knows our backcourt is our weakness
we all compare this team to last year's team when Pangos brought the ball down the court and began running offensive systems
Alberts, Melson, and Eric M are still learning how Fewie likes to run the offensive sets,
they often stop the ball movement figuring out what to do, or when they get the ball they pass it back without looking around to see what else might be happening on the floor, looking for opportunities the opponent's defense has presented
The only time I get the feeling the offense is operating close to what Few expects, esp. protecting the ball this season so far,
is when Josh P. and Kyle D. are in the backcourt together
this is not to say that Eric, Alberts or Silas won't eventually surpass Kyle D.'s value to the team as they log more minutes in few's system,
but right now I would like to see Kyle D. on the floor more often to keep the flow organized
just my opinion ...

cggonzaga
11-14-2015, 11:16 AM
My problem with your and others analysis is that it was based off of that 20 minutes. The players commented on how "it felt like we were in slow motion and afraid to move". It wasn't like the game was an example of we truly play. I'm just saying don't be so quick to judge based on that half game. Actually thought we showed heart and grit in coming back.

john montana
11-14-2015, 12:06 PM
I think one of the biggest gripes with Karno is that he has a propensity to lower his potential field goal percentage by not dunking the ball. At 7 feet tall and not terribly un-athletic it should be the norm that he just flushes the rock when he is point blank.

This kind of stuff just cracks me up. Is it that easy to rise up in traffic with bodies all over you and dunk the ball? Not everyone has the athletic ability of Shawn kemp...pk simply doesn't have that. If it was as simple as deciding to do it there would be a lot more big guys flushing the ball in traffic.

Pargo the Destroyer
11-14-2015, 08:31 PM
This kind of stuff just cracks me up. Is it that easy to rise up in traffic with bodies all over you and dunk the ball? Not everyone has the athletic ability of Shawn kemp...pk simply doesn't have that. If it was as simple as deciding to do it there would be a lot more big guys flushing the ball in traffic.
You can't do it. But it's not unreasonable to expect a high level D1 athlete whose head happens to be 3 feet below the rim....not counting his arm length, to dunk the ball. Especially considering he's done it plenty of times before.

ZagsGoZags
11-14-2015, 09:47 PM
My problem with your and others analysis is that it was based off of that 20 minutes. The players commented on how "it felt like we were in slow motion and afraid to move". It wasn't like the game was an example of we truly play. I'm just saying don't be so quick to judge based on that half game. Actually thought we showed heart and grit in coming back.

Well it is only 20 minutes, but it is fun to analyze what we have seen. I saw Melson most of last season, Eric M. half of last season, and Josh P. first few games of last season, and also the E. Oregon game, and scrimmage game. I think it is fine to analyze from what we have to work from. That is exactly what the coaches are doing right now, looking at film, and coaching from it. Of course in addition to practice. Few is the one who said our guards are having trouble so far protecting the ball, and turning it over far too often. When I watched the game, I saw some of this.
Analyzing ball teams starts with day 1 and continues throughout the season. Will subsequent play change the opinions, sure. No problem with that that I see. Some want to give opinions right away and are having fun doing it. The ones who don't want to should not, and presumably will not. You are never going to stop sports fans from analyzing a game, or part of a game, after they have watched it. Why try?

cggonzaga
11-15-2015, 12:29 AM
I could care less about analyzing games. That was no game. I turned on the TV to watch basketball but it turned out to be hockey instead. Analyze away but if anybody thinks they watched 20 minutes of basketball Friday night they're mistaken.

bartruff1
11-15-2015, 04:18 AM
Well, then our wings need to learn to protect the puck and how to pass it and how to score.

john montana
11-15-2015, 09:19 AM
You can't do it. But it's not unreasonable to expect a high level D1 athlete whose head happens to be 3 feet below the rim....not counting his arm length, to dunk the ball. Especially considering he's done it plenty of times before.

What cracks me up is the assumption that PK is literally deciding NOT to dunk the ball. I can just see him with the ball in amongst the bodies and jostling saying in his head "well, I COULD just rise up like a freak athlete and rip the rim off and make Sportscenter top 10...but nah...I would rather just miss a contested layup."

If he was physically capable of that play, he would do it. It isn't as simple as just saying "PK should just dunk everything?" He just isn't that kind of athlete. I bet money he wants to, he just physically can't. He needs a little more space and/or time to gather himself.

ProjectMKUltra5
11-15-2015, 09:31 AM
A 7'1" 290 man can't physically dunk the ball in traffic? I've heard it all

Zagdawg
11-15-2015, 10:00 AM
He was rising up and dunking in international play. Maybe conserving energy due to spending more time on the floor in the three big lineup.

TexasZagFan
11-15-2015, 11:15 AM
He was rising up and dunking in international play. Maybe conserving energy due to spending more time on the floor in the three big lineup.

True, but he didn't have to worry about hydro planing while driving to the hoop.

GonzagasaurusFlex
11-15-2015, 12:07 PM
True, but he didn't have to worry about hydro planing while driving to the hoop.

Excellent point TZF!

LMAO