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Therunner
11-08-2015, 07:57 AM
One of my greatest concerns this off-season was not only replacing two 4-starters, but replacing two 40% 3pt shooters.

We were 5 of 32 from 3pt last night.

Wiltjer made 3 of them.

We have a giant front court, thus teams are going to attempt to limit their touches by packing the middle, a packed zone on many occasions.

Fortunately, teams were unable to exploit or employ that last season due to Pangos and GBJ perimeter shooting ability, teams also extended the D because they didn't fear Pangos or GBJ ability to dribble-drive either. We kept defenses honest, and forced them away from our bigs with our perimeter shooting. And they took advantage.

2 sides to the coin to this season.

We have backcourt players who are quick, athletic, can penetrate/drive with the best, yet can they SHOOT?

Opponents will fear their ability to penetrate, yet not respect their shooting, thus putting more pressure on our bigs. Even neutralizing their ability to fully operate or score underneath.

IF our guards can't show they can shoot from deep, expect every. single. team to pack-it-in, leading to:

-- limiting our quick guards dribble-drive
-- double-down on our bigs
-- force our guards to shoot, beating them from deep
-- limit our post touches in the paint

This could be why Wiltjer will occasionally need to play the 3 -- even though none of us like it for more reasons than not -- we need perimeter scoring to allow an inside-out game and for our guards to penetrate.

Our strengths this season our guards who can get to the rim, penetrate, and bigs who can score in low block.

That is neutralized if guards can't shoot.

Last night, the shooting was a concern. Players such as Silas, Alberts, even Perkins had a tough time getting close to making 3pt shots. even hitting the rim.

Until they start knocking 'em down, this team will be ONE-dimensional, as opponents are going to test it, especially in the WCC.

I sincerely wish we had a knock-down shooting specialist on this squad. One guy who could come in, extend the D, keep them HONEST, shoot over a zone/packed defense.

We don't have it and we certainly need it if we plan on utilizing our own strengths.

willandi
11-08-2015, 07:59 AM
we're doomed!

Therunner
11-08-2015, 08:12 AM
we're doomed!

If we continue to shoot 15% from 3pt, you can bet your arse we are, indeed…

Point is, our bigs won't be able to do squat if our guards can't shoot. If our guards can't shoot, they won't be able to play to their strengths either.

We were a Top-5 3pt shooting team last season, not asking for that; however, we must keep defenses reasonably honest.

We have such dynamic guards and big bigs we don't need to be amazing, yet McClellan, Perkins, Melson, Alberts, someone will need to step-up and hit shots.

If not, we will struggle. No doubt.

Most fans aren't concerned since we've had amazing 3pt shooting guards the last decade+, and TWO 40+% 3pt shooters starting last 4 years.

Our current crop are outstanding athletes and play-makers, yet if no one can consistently hit a perimeter shot, defenses eat that up.

A packed zone could be our downfall and nightmare until these guys prove they can hit shots. Coach Few said it himself at the end of last season -- his biggest concern this year was shooting. During that interview, he said, "I have no idea who will step up, yet Alberts is hitting them in practice".

I hope he can emerge, but right now, we have unproven shooters, which can snowball into a big deal.

Bogozags
11-08-2015, 08:38 AM
we're doomed!

I agree, no hope for us this season...only way to win is for us to shoot more threes to make up for the poor percentage we have...that'll fix the problem :o

zagsfanforlife
11-08-2015, 08:38 AM
Said the exact same thing last night. Outside of Kyle we need another outside threat to consistently step up. Gauging on how many threes Alberts shot, he must be a decent 3 pt shooter or he wouldn't have the reigns to be jacking up so many. Melson was in and out on two threes so he is another who might be able to be a sharpshooter. Eric isn't a shooter from 3. Perk needs to look for his three more when teams give it to him. If not teams will start packing it in against our big guys. Could be an issue this year if no one else emerges.

willandi
11-08-2015, 08:39 AM
They didn't shoot well in the first game. Many of the shots were not in sync, and the game was pretty well in hand. We know that Drangs, Melson, Alberts should be close to 40% shooters, from 3, with Parks and Mac in the mid to upper 30%'s.

They will shoot closer to expectations, and to their averages. I think you can count on it.

Of course if they don't, we're doomed...if Domas is seriously injured, and Wilt and Karno go down, we're doomed.

I see it as one game where the reserves didn't shoot well. Few wants Melson, Alberts and Drangs to drive, as much as shoot. When they play within the offense, the shots will fall.

ProjectMKUltra5
11-08-2015, 08:49 AM
This team was never going to be that team that rains threes on you all night. From that standpoint it's a bit concerning that 32 threes were taken instead of dumping it down to the block more, but the fact that they missed so many isn't necessarily a problem because that's part of this teams identity (inside more then outside).

The flipside of that is that we saw Perkins and McClellan make plays in the lane that Pangos and Bell never made in four years. Alberts looked good finishing at the rim. The transition game was on fire when they didn't settle for jumpers and took it all the way. These guys are going to score at high clip, they're just going to do it in a different manner.

Mr Vulture
11-08-2015, 08:56 AM
Really? It's the first game of the year and an exhibition at that. The only thing if significance you can take from this game is the health of Sabonis. I would say..relax...

Hoopaholic
11-08-2015, 09:11 AM
I felt many of the shots were rushed and not aligned with the offensive flow......first game. New players still figuring out their roles while balancing needs of the team and patience, early indicator of uncertainty of new shot clock and Easterns game plan of middle take away

Some good early lessons for our team

CdAZagFan
11-08-2015, 09:20 AM
First game of the season... Those 3's will fall in due time. I'm excited about the athleticism of our guards this year.

VinnyZag
11-08-2015, 10:28 AM
I seriously doubt that Dranginis, Melson and Alberts are going to combine to go 0-15 in a game again this season. They're good shooters -- maybe not great shooters like Pangos and Bell, but good shooters nonetheless. They'll be fine, this game was an anomaly.

Hoopaholic
11-08-2015, 03:46 PM
I seriously doubt that Dranginis, Melson and Alberts are going to combine to go 0-15 in a game again this season. They're good shooters -- maybe not great shooters like Pangos and Bell, but good shooters nonetheless. They'll be fine, this game was an anomaly.

disagree if they continue to force their shots, take shots that are not within the parameters of the offense or are shots simply because they had the ball in their hands

if they do those types of decision making we saw yesterday we will see more poor shooting

This is the difference between last years backcourt and this years and the sooner this years understands their roles, where their maximum shot selection creates balance within the context of the offense, the better we will become....I suspect it will come but not without some more bad decision making/bad shooting percentages

MDABE80
11-08-2015, 04:09 PM
Awful shooting. Pangos and Bell kept the defense honest as they shot the lights out on any given night. This group really does need to practice shooting. Kyle shot lights out in HS. He's can score from anywhere on the court. HE needs to return to that form. You can bet the key and elboes will be the focuse of defense.leaving the guards open for good shots. Practice guys! Practice.

seacatfan
11-08-2015, 04:24 PM
I have a feeling this will need to be mentioned more than once. While Bell was a very good shooter from distance during his career at GU, he was mired in a shooting slump most of his Sr. season. The whole "Pangos and Bell were dead-eye shooters last year" narrative should end now, because it's not true.

cggonzaga
11-08-2015, 04:31 PM
Sorry Hoopaholic but I don't believe we forced that many bad shots yesterday. There were more than a few of those 3s that were in and out. They'll fall. My bigger concern was that we shot 32 threes. Melson, Deanginis and Alberts shouldn't settle for the 3. All 3 guys can get to the rim.

Reborn
11-08-2015, 04:33 PM
I have a feeling this will need to be mentioned more than once. While Bell was a very good shooter from distance during his career at GU, he was mired in a shooting slump most of his Sr. season. The whole "Pangos and Bell were dead-eye shooters last year" narrative should end now, because it's not true.

I agree.I thought Gary had a poor shooting year, and for most of Kevin's career he had trouble shooting on the road. Last year it was better. I am not worried in the least about the poor shooting from the 3 point line last night. The chemistry is off right now, and we need to wait until Few sets his lineup, playing time and roles. That will take time. Enjoy!!! I thought Wiltjer shot very well for the perimeter, and in fact, played awesome. I was only able to listen to the game on the radio, but OMG he began to hit everything. I'm sure he could have scored 50 last night. I'm so excited to actually see him play....Go Zags!!!

Zagdawg
11-08-2015, 04:47 PM
36% his senior year from distance-- not as good as his 42% his junior year-- but far from a "slump".

He shot the same percentage as the #7 ranked 3 pt shooting team in the NBA (Sacramento).

zagbeliever
11-08-2015, 06:04 PM
I think it is just an issue of getting used to the 30 second shot clock. A lot of their shots were rushed but they will be fine

seacatfan
11-08-2015, 06:11 PM
Last year wasn't that long ago. Do some of you really not remember how many game there were when Gary just couldn't buy a bucket and how much hand wringing there was over his shooting in various threads throughout the season? It really did happen, I'm not making this up.

maynard g krebs
11-08-2015, 06:22 PM
36% his senior year from distance-- not as good as his 42% his junior year-- but far from a "slump".

(Sacramento).

But he started the year red hot, and then slumped badly. Early in the season he was among the national leaders in offensive efficiency. Without looking it up, I'd bet he was in the upper or mid 40's the first 10-12 games, and closer to 30 the rest of the season.

hondo
11-08-2015, 06:48 PM
It's a bit early to start fretting about our guards outside shooting. Nov 14th, 2011 when Kevin was a freshman he hit only 3 of 9 three point shots and 4 of 12 total shot in the exhibition game that year. A couple of weeks later against the much tougher D of WSU Kevin hit 9 of 13 three point attempts.
Just today Arizona shot 59.3 percent from the field but made just 2 of 13 three-pointers in their exhibition game.

Coach Crazy
11-08-2015, 06:50 PM
This team was never going to be that team that rains threes on you all night. From that standpoint it's a bit concerning that 32 threes were taken instead of dumping it down to the block more, but the fact that they missed so many isn't necessarily a problem because that's part of this teams identity (inside more then outside).

The flipside of that is that we saw Perkins and McClellan make plays in the lane that Pangos and Bell never made in four years. Alberts looked good finishing at the rim. The transition game was on fire when they didn't settle for jumpers and took it all the way. These guys are going to score at high clip, they're just going to do it in a different manner.

Bingo. That transition game is going to be essential. I know that is a scary thought for some people, because we haven't seen too many iterations of Gonzaga basketball that can thrive with that as a primary component. Transition does so much that other facets of the game cannot. You take away legs, you take away the depth. You take away legs, you get instantly stronger in the post and have better positioning, by default. You take away legs and you have more time and space on the 3 ball. You take away legs and you start to see foul trouble in your favor.

I'm not saying that all of the sudden they'll become this run-and-gun-all-day team. But it should be a portion of this team's primary identity.

The transformation continues. They get a healthy percentage of efficient transition contribution and this team will go to the Final Four and potentially the NC/Win it all.

Zagdawg
11-08-2015, 06:59 PM
I remember it more as a consistency issue---in his last 11 games he shot over 40% in 6 of the games--but he had some bad ones also.

BULLDOG#1
11-08-2015, 07:24 PM
This is an above average 3 point shooting team. I'd call it first game jitters.
Melson, Alberts, Drang will all average a decent % from deep.

Hoopaholic
11-08-2015, 07:34 PM
Sorry Hoopaholic but I don't believe we forced that many bad shots yesterday. There were more than a few of those 3s that were in and out. They'll fall. My bigger concern was that we shot 32 threes. Melson, Deanginis and Alberts shouldn't settle for the 3. All 3 guys can get to the rim.

fair enough but rewatched it and saw the same issues that I saw the first time, rushed shots, shots out of position, not in context of offense

so maybe it is a definitionof "bad shots"?

cggonzaga
11-08-2015, 08:25 PM
I'll agree there were some rushed shots but they were open looks imo.

ZAGGED OUT
11-08-2015, 08:44 PM
Yea I'm gonna go with we have different definitions of "bad shots" Hoopaholic. Outside of maybe 4 or 5, I thought they were well within the confines of the offense, and shots that we will need to take to keep defenses honest.


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Mike83814
11-08-2015, 10:16 PM
Yea I'm gonna go with we have different definitions of "bad shots" Hoopaholic. Outside of maybe 4 or 5, I thought they were well within the confines of the offense, and shots that we will need to take to keep defenses honest.


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This is actually what makes me a little uneasy. These are shots where @ least ONE shot of however many should have dropped from someone not named Wiltjer.

This definitely doesn't spell DOOOOOOOM for the team, but it's going to definitely put extra pressure on the Big Three.

ProjectMKUltra5
11-08-2015, 10:30 PM
Bingo. That transition game is going to be essential. I know that is a scary thought for some people, because we haven't seen too many iterations of Gonzaga basketball that can thrive with that as a primary component. Transition does so much that other facets of the game cannot. You take away legs, you take away the depth. You take away legs, you get instantly stronger in the post and have better positioning, by default. You take away legs and you have more time and space on the 3 ball. You take away legs and you start to see foul trouble in your favor.

I'm not saying that all of the sudden they'll become this run-and-gun-all-day team. But it should be a portion of this team's primary identity.

The transformation continues. They get a healthy percentage of efficient transition contribution and this team will go to the Final Four and potentially the NC/Win it all.

I mean, isn't that what everyone meant when they talked about how good this team would be against other good teams? All offseason we talked about how supremely athletic this group is and how that might manifest itself in ways that would be beneficial to beating elite teams, those things show up, and all everyone wants to do is complain about how the team isn't the same as least year?

I guarantee that if getting the ball to the rim becomes the primary offensive focus we will be nigh impossible to stop. Be it our bigs working in the post or our guards taking it to the rack in transition or the half-court, it will be a bucket or a foul every. single. time.

23zagmd
11-09-2015, 08:05 AM
Its NOT that they won't go 0-15....they HAVE to shoot 5-15!!! Period. 33% is the bare minimum and there are quotes on here about the shots being out of sync with the offense.....really? Those shots HAVE to be part of the offense. Offensive efficiency is never achieved unless the ball moves inside/out of the offense. I think the ball movement will improve, but I'm not sure the shooting will....

I said this several times over the last year in different posts.....this teams biggest weakness is going to be consistent 3 point shooting. It is one of the huge factors that cost us a trip to the Final 4 and that was with our "great" three point shooters last year.
I seriously doubt that Dranginis, Melson and Alberts are going to combine to go 0-15 in a game again this season. They're good shooters -- maybe not great shooters like Pangos and Bell, but good shooters nonetheless. They'll be fine, this game was an anomaly.

titopoet
11-09-2015, 08:52 AM
Its NOT that they won't go 0-15....they HAVE to shoot 5-15!!! Period. 33% is the bare minimum and there are quotes on here about the shots being out of sync with the offense.....really? Those shots HAVE to be part of the offense. Offensive efficiency is never achieved unless the ball moves inside/out of the offense. I think the ball movement will improve, but I'm not sure the shooting will....

I said this several times over the last year in different posts.....this teams biggest weakness is going to be consistent 3 point shooting. It is one of the huge factors that cost us a trip to the Final 4 and that was with our "great" three point shooters last year.

Going back though the game, I saw too many shots taken early and often without first a post touch. Throw it into the post and Karno and company will get the ball back in the perfect location and the 3 point % will go up. The offense flows best for this team with it going through post. Even before Sabonis went down, he got zero touches in five minutes of play. When one of your best 3 players gets zero touches means a tougher time for the rest. Karno only got a few more it means more swinging of the ball and playing inside out. Get to the post and then the defense collapse and your shooters get wide open looks. To many of the 3s were early in the clock and the step back variety rather than the running of offense that leads to the open 3.

seacatfan
11-09-2015, 11:27 AM
Part of Sabonis' lack of touches before he got hurt might have to do with the experiment with the Big 3. Wiltjer was also very ineffective when all 3 were on the floor together. I hope Sabonis is back to being healthy and available to play soon, but I also hope the Big 3 starting lineup is scrapped. They can still try it situationally in games, but not a good way to start from the opening tip.

maynard g krebs
11-09-2015, 01:01 PM
Its NOT that they won't go 0-15....they HAVE to shoot 5-15!!! Period. 33% is the bare minimum

That's just not gonna happen every game. The returning guards shot a combined 40/115 from 3 last year, a tick under 35%. Just assuming a bell curve distribution, that means they'll have occasional games in the teens and others in the 50's as a group. Not gonna be at a minimum of 33 every game; it doesn't work that way.

Wichita went 2 for 20 in their first tourney game with Pitt before beating the Zags in 2013. And we know how they shot in the next game.

I'm not worried about the shooting yet. If they shoot like that for 4 or 5 games in a row, then yes. New group of guards in terms of playing together under the lights, and they're gonna need some time. Bell/Pangos were so good they were easy to take for granted.

I didn't see the game, but can imagine the offensive rhythm isn't there yet. Based on the box score, I'd like to see Perkins taking some more shots. Four for 10 in his limited time last year, and one for 2 this game. He may need to lead the guards in this area as well.

Zagricultural
11-09-2015, 01:14 PM
I've always said the 3-point shooting is my biggest concern for this year. My second biggest concern is now the " Tall Trio" starting, and playing extended minutes together. Not a fan of it, and it only exacerbates the 3-point shooting problem.

willandi
11-09-2015, 04:46 PM
So, is it time to start thinking about a new coaching staff? Obviously these clowns can't even judge good shooters! (sarcasm alert)

Zagdawg
11-09-2015, 04:49 PM
I think it is part of the game plan---make it look like our guys can't shoot from the 3----Pitt guards will back off to clog the inside and our guards will drop bombs from 3 all night long.

Zagricultural
11-09-2015, 04:57 PM
So, is it time to start thinking about a new coaching staff? Obviously these clowns can't even judge good shooters! (sarcasm alert)

Nope :) Just a concern to me that is all.

DixieZag
11-09-2015, 04:57 PM
From the limited sample last year, as I recall, Perkins shot far better from 3 than anyone expected. I would think the same will happen this year IF he feels the need to score - he clearly didn't the other night.

Dranginis will shoot a serviceable percentage, right in that 33-38 percent that he has the entire time he's been here.

As for Melson? It's got to come up, or he just won't be outside the arc shooting, whether it be by choice to be a ball mover and attack the rim, or he isn't standing inbounds to be able to do anything.

Alberts is supposed to be a good shooter, we'll see.

And I think eMac will be able to at least match the Dranginis zone 33-38 percent.

Of course we're leaving out the 2 obvious big guns, Wiltjer could flirt with 50%

And Karno will shoot above 50% to end out his career, just so long as he is very selective in his shots.

23zagmd
11-09-2015, 06:32 PM
that's exactly my point! and you should always be worried about shooting!



That's just not gonna happen every game. The returning guards shot a combined 40/115 from 3 last year, a tick under 35%. Just assuming a bell curve distribution, that means they'll have occasional games in the teens and others in the 50's as a group. Not gonna be at a minimum of 33 every game; it doesn't work that way.

Wichita went 2 for 20 in their first tourney game with Pitt before beating the Zags in 2013. And we know how they shot in the next game.

I'm not worried about the shooting yet. If they shoot like that for 4 or 5 games in a row, then yes. New group of guards in terms of playing together under the lights, and they're gonna need some time. Bell/Pangos were so good they were easy to take for granted.

I didn't see the game, but can imagine the offensive rhythm isn't there yet. Based on the box score, I'd like to see Perkins taking some more shots. Four for 10 in his limited time last year, and one for 2 this game. He may need to lead the guards in this area as well.