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Section 116
10-28-2015, 07:31 PM
and scroll down for an outlook on SMC, including some Randy Bennett comments, and a preseason West Coast Top 10:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/west-coast-bias--gonzaga-experimenting-with-supersized-lineup-171914931.html

sittingon50
10-28-2015, 07:57 PM
Thanks, 116.

ZagsGoZags
10-28-2015, 08:16 PM
I expect two things this season.

By December I think Josh Perkins will be recognized as an elite level, or near elite level point guard, i.e. four standout players not three, and that his overall contribution to the team will approach or equal Pangos

By February I think Few will have found ways to use Alberts, Melson, Eric, and Kyle D to contribute overall to the team almost as much as Bell, Wesley and Kyle D. performed last year. This will be important because none of our big three can play without needing breaks, especially in fast games. I don't know about Alberts yet, but I think the quick defensive skills of Kyle D, Silas and Eric will be plenty to bring in if the quick drives of our opponents guards and wings are getting into the paint too much.

We may start with 3 bigs, but I expect by Feb it will be more like last year, with two of the three, rather than all three, most of the game.

Maybe we ought to get Big Rob up here to teach all three of them on defense how to bend low at the knees and move laterally with quickness and effectiveness.

zagamatic
10-28-2015, 08:48 PM
I couldn't help but notice the part about Wiltjer having quicker feet on defense. ....interesting.

raise the zag
10-28-2015, 09:16 PM
I get it, yet don't like it, but as Coach Few repeatedly mentions, "gotta play our 3 best players...".

Don't get me started on defending Top-25 teams and/or backcourt chemistry...

Imagine Sabonis or Wiltjer guarding a 6'6" athletic wing/slasher. Not happenin. I realize adjustments yet hope someone such as Alberts or Dranginis steps up & solidifies the wing.

One of our bigs will be dissappointed yet I have a feeling it's in the best interest of our team.

Looks good on paper, much like Elias at SF. This will last just as long, imho.

Pitt, our opener, feat the juco player of the year at wing. This experiment will be tested early.

Not comfortable in taking Wiltjer away from the hoop either. He might be our best inside scorer as well.

I like our change of pace approach, it's a luxury & good 'problem' to have...

Zagger
10-29-2015, 01:36 AM
Best part of story for me is the last sentence .......
"Then Karnowski contracted pneumonia, sidelining him until late last week."
Good to know Mt K is back in the ranks :)

jazzdelmar
10-29-2015, 04:23 AM
Raise: Imagine Sabonis or Wiltjer guarding a 6'6" athletic wing/slasher. Not happenin. I realize adjustments yet hope someone such as Alberts or Dranginis steps up & solidifies the wing.


Imagine the 6-6 slasher trying to guard DS or KW?

TheGonzagaFactor
10-29-2015, 05:14 AM
Raise: Imagine Sabonis or Wiltjer guarding a 6'6" athletic wing/slasher. Not happenin. I realize adjustments yet hope someone such as Alberts or Dranginis steps up & solidifies the wing.


Imagine the 6-6 slasher trying to guard DS or KW?


Of course KW can shoot anytime, but said slasher wouldn't have a problem with Sabonis, he'd have two big men behind him to help...

willandi
10-29-2015, 05:49 AM
Of course KW can shoot anytime, but said slasher wouldn't have a problem with Sabonis, he'd have two big men behind him to help...

So, you think the slasher can cover Domas one on one, and have help if he doesn't. That help means one of the other 2 are open.

It will be an interesting experiment. If the big 3 can cover SOME outside, and play into a collapsing interior, with the guards covering the outlet, it could work. I think we would score more than they would, so would be a success.

Zaga
10-29-2015, 06:41 AM
I expect two things this season.

By December I think Josh Perkins will be recognized as an elite level, or near elite level point guard, i.e. four standout players not three, and that his overall contribution to the team will approach or equal Pangos

By February I think Few will have found ways to use Alberts, Melson, Eric, and Kyle D to contribute overall to the team almost as much as Bell, Wesley and Kyle D. performed last year. This will be important because none of our big three can play without needing breaks, especially in fast games. I don't know about Alberts yet, but I think the quick defensive skills of Kyle D, Silas and Eric will be plenty to bring in if the quick drives of our opponents guards and wings are getting into the paint too much.

We may start with 3 bigs, but I expect by Feb it will be more like last year, with two of the three, rather than all three, most of the game.

Maybe we ought to get Big Rob up here to teach all three of them on defense how to bend low at the knees and move laterally with quickness and effectiveness.

I agree. Few has many options but Josh will be the cornerstone of how far the Zag's go this year. JMO

Coach Crazy
10-29-2015, 07:12 AM
Raise: Imagine Sabonis or Wiltjer guarding a 6'6" athletic wing/slasher. Not happenin. I realize adjustments yet hope someone such as Alberts or Dranginis steps up & solidifies the wing.


Imagine the 6-6 slasher trying to guard DS or KW?

This is true. Well, depending on the wing/slasher. But it goes both ways. You really gonna put a 6'6" wing/slasher on KW and give up those inches on shot defense? You then have to resort to adding another SF playing on the floor to compensate for the lack of D, or have a PF play out in what becomes a lonely island for the defender.

It will work both ways. In both of those scenarios, the opposing team either loses considerable shot defense on the wing, or a ton of size in the middle. I am ready to see how the big 3 will work. With that much size, it simply becomes about spacing. Get that down, and it cures some ill's.

CDC84
10-29-2015, 07:17 AM
To combat defensive issues posed by opponents flush with quick, athletic forwards, Few said he'll play more zone when his three big men are on the floor together.

This is the key component to the "potential" defensive issues. Zone 'em. Just like the 2008/09 team.

roxdoc
10-29-2015, 07:22 AM
In a perfect world it works both ways but what about the inevitable build up of fouls on Sabonis guarding (trying to) the quick wing? Two and he sits - experiment over.

Chicken Ball
10-29-2015, 07:29 AM
I've seen in a couple places now that Few thinks Domas' footspeed is good enough to hang defensively with most 3-men. There seems to be a lot of skepticism about Few's judgment on that score on this board. Since Few has seen Domas in that situation a lot more than we have, I think we have to give him the benefit of the doubt that he might be right.

hooter73
10-29-2015, 08:15 AM
We've seen Few decide to play defense by better offense with Ammo's team. It kind of worked. Kind of. Most the time... until it burnt down in glorious fashion against UCLA.

I dont think its going to be plausible, BUT I really want to see what personality it shows in the opposing coaches. If we throw three bigs at them, will they buckle under and throw in their bigs to better match up, letting us dictate the style of game, or will they bow their necks and keep to a traditional line up and just keep taking the hits. That is what I'll be interested to see.


In a perfect world it works both ways but what about the inevitable build up of fouls on Sabonis guarding (trying to) the quick wing? Two and he sits - experiment over.

This is my prediction as well.

GonzagasaurusFlex
10-29-2015, 08:16 AM
and scroll down for an outlook on SMC, including some Randy Bennett comments, and a preseason West Coast Top 10:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/west-coast-bias--gonzaga-experimenting-with-supersized-lineup-171914931.html

I am glad to hear Coach Few going on the record as saying Zags are going to start all three bigs because this means they are obviously dedicating practice time to making it work rather than just dabbling in it for a few minutes per half.

It can definitely work, imho, if the team commits to making it work by practicing spacing on the offensive end and of course the defensive end (zone and rotations in man v man). I for one hope Coach Few and the staff go all in with this lineup by dedicating the practice time necessary to making it work...that's the only way it will work! I can see some sets with PK in the high post/elbow area dropping dimes down low for DS or KW, which was very successful in NCAA's last year.

I predict the remaining starters will be Perkins and McClellan....as their quickness and ball handling will be important complements to the big lineup. As much as I love K.D. and wanted to see him starting his senior year, I don't see that happening with a big lineup. KD is first man off the bench for sure and likely comes in as soon as one of the bigs picks up their first foul....if not sooner.

strikenowhere
10-29-2015, 08:20 AM
I am glad to hear Coach Few going on the record as saying Zags are going to start all three bigs because this means they are obviously dedicating practice time to making it work rather than just dabbling in it for a few minutes per half.

It can definitely work, imho, if the team commits to making it work by practicing spacing on the offensive end and of course the defensive end (zone and rotations in man v man). I for one hope Coach Few and the staff go all in with this lineup by dedicating the practice time necessary to making it work...that's the only way it will work! I can see some sets with PK in the high post/elbow area dropping dimes down low for DS or KW, which was very successful in NCAA's last year.

I predict the remaining starters will be Perkins and McClellan....as their quickness and ball handling will be important complements to the big lineup. As much as I love K.D. and wanted to see him starting his senior year, I don't see that happening with a big lineup. KD is first man off the bench for sure and likely comes in as soon as one of the bigs picks up their first foul....if not sooner.

You don't think Dranginis will get the start at the 2? its his senior year and he's shown that he is very capable.

GonzagasaurusFlex
10-29-2015, 08:24 AM
You don't think Dranginis will get the start at the 2? its his senior year and he's shown that he is very capable.

As much as I'd like to see him start, I don't think KD is best option at the two guard spot if Zags are starting 3 bigs. With a big lineup, Zags will need quickness and ballhandling to complement the bigs and handle an obvious tactic against size...pressure D. Love K.D., but handles and quickness are not his best attributes...they sure are McClellan's though!

seacatfan
10-29-2015, 09:16 AM
I've been skeptical about the 3 bigs lineup, but I should reserve judgement until I actually see it in action and see how well it works. 2 years ago Arizona went with 3 bigs most of the season until an injury occurred to one of them with Zeus, Ashley and Gordon. Neither Ashley or Gordon was really a 3. It worked well enough, they were 21-0 I believe before the injury. I think Ashley was probably a bit more mobile than either Wiltjer or Sabonis, Gordon for sure was way more mobile and was noted for his defense, so guarding a 3 on the perimeter wasn't a complete stretch. But if the Zags largely play zone with that lineup then it becomes a bit moot anyway. As noted it can turn out to be a chess match, very few (if any?) teams the Zags will meet will have 3 quality bigs to match up with Karno, Wiltjer and Sabonis, so other teams might counter by going small and then see who blinks first.

jazzdelmar
10-29-2015, 10:12 AM
The Big 3 have to be paired with Mac as well as Josh. Such a lineup puts a premium on ball handling and for four years KD hasn't improved an iota in that area, though he's a very valuable asset all round. None of the B3 inspire with their ball handling.

sittingon50
10-29-2015, 10:28 AM
Was reading up on Mt. St. Marys in Blue Ribbon last night. They call their style "Mayhem" & apparently are going with 4 guards.

The only time I remember (& maybe someone can help me out) the Zags goin' with 4 guards for any period of time was vs UNC in MSG when Raivio, Pargo, Bouldin, PMAC & Heytvelt ran Hansborough (sp?) & friends out of the building.

There will be some interesting moments, for sure.

ZAGGED OUT
10-29-2015, 10:41 AM
Well, I like to think Few has developed a full gameplan complementing the Big 3 if that's who he is starting. IF this is true and turns out to be what we roll with I see lineups like this:

Starters
PG: Perkins
SG: Draino
SF: KW
PF: Domas
C: Karno

Bench:
PG: McClellan
SG: Melson
SF: Alberts
PF: Committee
C: Edwards

He tends to narrow the lineups down from 10 guys to a few less towards March, so it'll be interesting to see how things play out. This season is going to be a fun ride either way!

SteelZag
10-29-2015, 11:08 AM
Was reading up on Mt. St. Marys in Blue Ribbon last night. They call their style "Mayhem" & apparently are going with 4 guards.

The only time I remember (& maybe someone can help me out) the Zags goin' with 4 guards for any period of time was vs UNC in MSG when Raivio, Pargo, Bouldin, PMAC & Heytvelt ran Hansborough (sp?) & friends out of the building.

There will be some interesting moments, for sure.

Didn't Barham and KD spend a lot of time at the 4 during KD's sophomore season. I'm interested in seeing all three bigs as well, but I wouldn't mind seeing 4 guards on the floor either since we finally have some bigger guards. I won't hold my breath for that lineup though.

NumberCruncher
10-29-2015, 12:22 PM
The Big 3 have to be paired with Mac as well as Josh. Such a lineup puts a premium on ball handling and for four years KD hasn't improved an iota in that area, though he's a very valuable asset all round. None of the B3 inspire with their ball handling.

But KD's TO numbers have improved each year. And his career numbers are quite a bit better than EM's.

Still, EM looked good in that department last season.

CDC84
10-29-2015, 12:42 PM
My worry about KD starting is that if Few elects to start the 3 big men, he probably needs to have two really good ball handlers out there. KD does a lot of things well, but his biggest weakness is his handle. It's poor even for a small forward.

raise the zag
10-29-2015, 12:59 PM
Meanwhile, Duke started a 6'5" PF vs us in the E8. Not to mention 3 guards under 6'2", a 6'5" PF, a 6'11" Center.

2 sides to this coin.

We will see...unless Wiltjer is shooting 50+% from 3pt, I honestly don't see the point.

Yes, our best talent & size, yet still...are we utilizing that size/talent to the maximum effect by playing them at the same time?

I don't think so. Try it, like a video game, when u play NBA jam doesn't mean you pick your 2 best centers to play b/c they're ur tallest & highest rated...need balance & play to strengths of the TEAM.

Risk vs reward.

CDC84
10-29-2015, 01:14 PM
Here's another supersized lineup

http://www.thetraveltart.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Heart-Attack-Grill-Menu-Bypass-Burgers-300x226.jpg

Zagdawg
10-29-2015, 01:19 PM
Very nice CDC menu image--- I like the Heart Attack Grill in Vegas ---- fun times are had by all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw2eAf8EnlQ

raise the zag
10-29-2015, 01:22 PM
Now I'm hungry again! And looking for a drive-thru stat!

Thx a lot CDC.

Zagricultural
10-29-2015, 01:33 PM
Call me a skeptic as well. I would love to see the " Tall Trio " for short spurts, and in certain situations. Say 5-7 minutes per game. I also see fouls being a problem this way. Anyone remember the BYU game in Vegas? we had Nunez out there for some extended run to close out the first half because all three bigs had 2+ fouls. Would still rather see Sabonis be the first off the bench, but that's just me.

ProjectMKUltra5
10-29-2015, 01:37 PM
It's like we didn't learn anything from that Dook game. Cross matched Wesley on Winslow and put Wiljter on Matt Jones (who?) and what ends up happening? Winslow and Jones go for 16, leading the team and carrying the them to the Final 4.

Somehow we expect that's going to get better by swapping out Wesley for Domas?

http://38.media.tumblr.com/b59901e12c4c473eb4f581e009dfd5e4/tumblr_mzeonckVsL1ql5yr7o1_250.gif

GonzagasaurusFlex
10-29-2015, 01:42 PM
Meanwhile, Duke started a 6'5" PF vs us in the E8. Not to mention 3 guards under 6'2", a 6'5" PF, a 6'11" Center.
2 sides to this coin.
We will see...unless Wiltjer is shooting 50+% from 3pt, I honestly don't see the point.
Yes, our best talent & size, yet still...are we utilizing that size/talent to the maximum effect by playing them at the same time?

I don't think so. Try it, like a video game, when u play NBA jam doesn't mean you pick your 2 best centers to play b/c they're ur tallest & highest rated...need balance & play to strengths of the TEAM.

Risk vs reward.

Coach K starting a 6'5" PF - Justise Winslow - is precisely the reason why Zags should go with the big lineup. Great coaches adapt to their talent. Zags most talented players need to be on the court as much as possible. Go Big Zags!!

ProjectMKUltra5
10-29-2015, 01:44 PM
Justice Winslow isn't a PF by any stretch of the imagination

GonzagasaurusFlex
10-29-2015, 01:55 PM
Justice Winslow isn't a PF by any stretch of the imagination

That's the point. Just as neither Wiltjer nor Sabonis are small forwards....great coaches aren't afraid to have unconventional lineups if the available talent requires it.

ZAGGED OUT
10-29-2015, 01:56 PM
Justice Winslow isn't a PF by any stretch of the imagination

He's not, but he played there for Duke last year


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

zagamatic
10-29-2015, 02:16 PM
I'm kind of interested in seeing what kind of foul trouble the 3 bigs can impose on other teams. Someone is going to be trying to guard a big who isn't used to it. Or possibly trying to recover after helping on a big which is when a lot of bigs pick up their fouls.
One thing's for sure, I'm a lot less nervous about this experiment having a 4th quality big in Edwards and in emergency having Dranginis to fill in for extreme foul trouble, etc

john montana
10-29-2015, 04:05 PM
Duke played a pressure man to man defense in order to allow themselves to play so small. And they set their offense to take advantage of their size as well with lots of drive and kick stuff. If we play all three bigs (I hope we try it) we obviously will adjust our offense and defense accordingly. A lot more zone, a lot more high low action, etc. bottom line is you can just you style to fit your personnel. Whichever team adjust more effectively will likely win.

zag67
10-29-2015, 07:03 PM
I also agree with MDA. I do not see us starting the big3, but I can see them playing together against certain teams. It would be bad for us to get 2 of them in foul trouble early in a game. I also see them playing together early in the season to get a feel of playing together. This will also allow the coaches to find out whether it works. Against the WCC, I do not see much of it because most of the teams live and die by the three.

sittingon50
10-29-2015, 07:34 PM
Call me a skeptic as well. I would love to see the " Tall Trio " for short spurts, and in certain situations. Say 5-7 minutes per game. I also see fouls being a problem this way. Anyone remember the BYU game in Vegas? we had Nunez out there for some extended run to close out the first half because all three bigs had 2+ fouls. Would still rather see Sabonis be the first off the bench, but that's just me.

"Tall Trio" may have some legs! How about a thread to come up with a nickname?

DixieZag
10-29-2015, 07:54 PM
I sometimes wonder if people end up outsmarting themselves when coming up with reasons to not have your 3 best players on the floor as much as possible. I get all the "but but but" and it is always "how do we guard __________" And the discussion never gets around to our opponents meeting the day before the game and saying; "Holy mother of god, how the hell are we going to step that 3 headed monster? They'll score 110."

But, I'm not smart enough to tell if others are outsmarting themselves.

Zag Man
10-29-2015, 09:52 PM
I agree. Few has many options but Josh will be the cornerstone of how far the Zag's go this year. JMO

I hate to put a lot of pressure on Josh, since he is only a freshman and he'll play like one during parts of the season. I believe the Zags will count a lot on Eric McClellan for senior leadership and playing with Josh as a mentor to the young man.

jazzdelmar
10-30-2015, 03:53 AM
I sometimes wonder if people end up outsmarting themselves when coming up with reasons to not have your 3 best players on the floor as much as possible. I get all the "but but but" and it is always "how do we guard __________" And the discussion never gets around to our opponents meeting the day before the game and saying; "Holy mother of god, how the hell are we going to step that 3 headed monster? They'll score 110."

But, I'm not smart enough to tell if others are outsmarting themselves.


You're getting what you want. You were prescient. Now let's hope you were correct.....:)

GonzagasaurusFlex
10-30-2015, 04:25 AM
I also agree with MDA. I do not see us starting the big3, but I can see them playing together against certain teams. It would be bad for us to get 2 of them in foul trouble early in a game. I also see them playing together early in the season to get a feel of playing together. This will also allow the coaches to find out whether it works. Against the WCC, I do not see much of it because most of the teams live and die by the three.

You may not see it happening but according to Coach Few it is likely to happen:


Mark Few told Yahoo Sports he's leaning toward starting 6-foot-10 Kyle Wiltjer, 6-11 Domantas Sabonis and 7-1 Przemek Karnowski because that's the only way he can get his three best players on the floor at once.


"We're committed to trying it and seeing where it takes us," Few said Monday at the WCC's Tip-Off event at the Time Warner Cable Sports studios.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/west-coast-bias--gonzaga-experimenting-with-supersized-lineup-171914931.html

DixieZag
10-30-2015, 04:36 AM
You're getting what you want. You were prescient. Now let's hope you were correct.....:)

Hey Jazz, good to hear from you.

Yeah, as I recall I'm not the only one who wanted this, you were right alongside me (and pretty much only you).

I can see where if the "3 best players" were all the same clodhoppers, yes, I can see where that's a problem. But, these players are quite different, and I don't think it's comparable to the Elias situation because - no matter how good Elias was - we're talking about 3 players that could make at least one level All-American team.

And I do think you've got to think about the other team looking at that and saying "We'll never stop them or get a board."

But, I guess that was just me, and you, and now Few. :)

jazzdelmar
10-30-2015, 04:43 AM
Hey Jazz, good to hear from you.

Yeah, as I recall I'm not the only one who wanted this, you were right alongside me (and pretty much only you).

I can see where if the "3 best players" were all the same clodhoppers, yes, I can see where that's a problem. But, these players are quite different, and I don't think it's comparable to the Elias situation because - no matter how good Elias was - we're talking about 3 players that could make at least one level All-American team.

And I do think you've got to think about the other team looking at that and saying "We'll never stop them or get a board."

But, I guess that was just me, and you, and now Few. :)

So you're saying the Big 3 is in favor of the Big 3? Gonna be fun. Josh still the key.

DixieZag
10-30-2015, 04:50 AM
So you're saying the Big 3 is in favor of the Big 3? Gonna be fun. Josh still the key.

Agree. And maybe it's irresponsible of me, or na´ve, but I don't worry about him in the slightest. I think he's a natural leader who will step right into the role and be a star.