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dan71w
10-23-2015, 04:37 PM
mid major from yahoo (http://www.midmajormadness.com/2015/10/23/9600572/mid-major-madness-preseason-power-15-gonzaga-bulldogs-zags)

really nice write-up.

krozman
10-23-2015, 05:41 PM
I'm not sure that I'd call Pangos and bell the best backcourt in GU history, but it's a decent enough article.

jazzdelmar
10-23-2015, 05:55 PM
I'm not sure that I'd call Pangos and bell the best backcourt in GU history, but it's a decent enough article.

Agree. Absurd statement. Hyperbole is ok but kinda makes you question the whole piece. They were top 5 for sure, though. Maybe 4th or 5th.

bartruff1
10-23-2015, 06:51 PM
I doubt he would say who was best till he retired, and maybe not then, but I would like to hear Mark's opinion....

seacatfan
10-23-2015, 07:32 PM
I like that the author noted "Geogia's Kenny Gaines kung-fu kicked Perkins in the face..." Somehow that ludicrous play didn't seem to enter the national consciousness. It should've been talked about, a lot, last year, should have been a humongous source of shame for Gaines and Georgia. At least one pundit mentioned it.

RenoZag
10-23-2015, 08:50 PM
RE: Kevin & Gary

If a backcourt tandem accounts for more wins than any others in program history and make an Elite 8, a reasonable case can be made to call them pacesetters, standard bearers, etc. . They went further than any other teammates since 1999, right ?

Looking forward, it will be terrific to watch the 2015-16 season unfold.

Can't define the precise reason for it, but I think the Zags are ready for a remarkable season.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

maynard g krebs
10-23-2015, 09:23 PM
Agree. Absurd statement. Hyperbole is ok but kinda makes you question the whole piece. They were top 5 for sure, though. Maybe 4th or 5th.

Your top 4?

maynard g krebs
10-23-2015, 09:49 PM
Just for fun:

Career wins:

1 Pangos 122
2 Bell 116

Career points:

5 Pangos 1824
22 Bell 1291

Career games played:

1 Pangos 142
5 Bell 135

Career steals

2 Pangos 177
16 Bell 111

Career assists

5 Pangos 536
19 Bell 265

Career fg's

8 Pangos 566

Career 3's

1 Pangos 322
7 Bell 219

NCAA tourney wins

Calvary/Spink 7
Bell/Pangos 6

Zagricultural
10-23-2015, 09:55 PM
Wichita ranked ahead of us? I think not.

Mantua
10-24-2015, 12:03 AM
NCAA tourney wins

Calvary/Spink 7


With a little help from their friends Richie and Matt. ;)

LongIslandZagFan
10-24-2015, 04:42 AM
Am I the only one that noticed that GU got 8 first place votes to Witchita States 6? Someone in that voting pool must have really ranked GU low for that to happen.

jazzdelmar
10-24-2015, 05:01 AM
RE: Kevin & Gary

If a backcourt tandem accounts for more wins than any others in program history and make an Elite 8, a reasonable case can be made to call them pacesetters, standard bearers, etc. . They went further than any other teammates since 1999, right ?

Looking forward, it will be terrific to watch the 2015-16 season unfold.

Can't define the precise reason for it, but I think the Zags are ready for a remarkable season.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reno, you have to consider the unparalleled quality of the big men that K and G played with.....Can you imagine Matt S, DD, BS or Pargo with the likes of KO and Harris and the Big 3....

jazzdelmar
10-24-2015, 05:06 AM
Your top 4?


Obviously, I could start with J Stocks and anyone from the dorm, but let's begin with MS and Richie. Then of course DD and Blake, nolo contendre I assume. Then the trio of MB, Gray and/or Pargo, again easy, right? So it's a battle for 4th with any number of other guard combos.

RenoZag
10-24-2015, 09:56 AM
Reno, you have to consider the unparalleled quality of the big men that K and G played with.....Can you imagine Matt S, DD, BS or Pargo with the likes of KO and Harris and the Big 3....

I think if you could have BS & DD with the current Big Three, it would be breathtaking to watch, jazz.

sittingon50
10-24-2015, 10:16 AM
I think if you could have BS & DD with the current Big Three, it would be breathtaking to watch, jazz.

I don't know, Reno. They're both gettin' kind of old & Blake's knees aren't gettin' any better.

jazzdelmar
10-24-2015, 10:20 AM
I don't know, Reno. They're both gettin' kind of old & Blake's knees aren't gettin' any better.

Funny. Still the wiles and intelligence of those two brilliant GU guards would come shining through.

jazzdelmar
10-24-2015, 10:22 AM
I think if you could have BS & DD with the current Big Three, it would be breathtaking to watch, jazz.

Did I forget Robert? Or was he gone when KP arrived? Throw in Dower too

Bogozags
10-24-2015, 10:33 AM
I think if you could have BS & DD with the current Big Three, it would be breathtaking to watch, jazz.

Reno,

Think there wouldn't be enough balls on the court or not enough minutes in the game for those five...BUT would still love to watch them both play, when they were seniors with our current three bigs, which are arguably the best combo ever and GU.

Reborn
10-24-2015, 10:42 AM
Obviously, I could start with J Stocks and anyone from the dorm, but let's begin with MS and Richie. Then of course DD and Blake, nolo contendre I assume. Then the trio of MB, Gray and/or Pargo, again easy, right? So it's a battle for 4th with any number of other guard combos.

I disagree with the Matt B and Steven G combo. They were really good, but imo not ahead of Pangos and Bell. Steven Gray will always be one of my favorite guards but honestly, Kevin Pangos surpasses him. My favorite is Dan Dickau. 1st team All-American, and just an incredible guard. And I would have to admit that I liked Matt Santangelo more, and I think he was a better point guard. I loved that runner in the key that he had, and I do believe he was a better outside shooter than Kevin overall and especially in the biggest games.

RenoZag
10-24-2015, 10:46 AM
I don't know, Reno. They're both gettin' kind of old & Blake's knees aren't gettin' any better.

Well-played. . .

ZagsGoZags
10-24-2015, 11:06 AM
I think our best guard duo was Dan Dickau and Blake Stepp
I think he does not notice that Kyle Wiltjer's defense is quite a bit better than it was at Kentucky
I wish the whole nation viewed Gaine's kicking Josh in the face the same way this author does : he got it right

jazzdelmar
10-24-2015, 11:41 AM
I think our best guard duo was Dan Dickau and Blake Stepp
I think he does not notice that Kyle Wiltjer's defense is quite a bit better than it was at Kentucky
I wish the whole nation viewed Gaine's kicking Josh in the face the same way this author does : he got it right

3X3, ZGZ

maynard g krebs
10-24-2015, 11:29 PM
Reno, you have to consider the unparalleled quality of the big men that K and G played with.....Can you imagine Matt S, DD, BS or Pargo with the likes of KO and Harris and the Big 3....

The flip side of this is the fact that Gary and Kevin had better frosh years statistically (except maybe Santangelo, who had a rs year) than any of those guys, when the bigs they played with weren't as good as the current group. They gave up their individual numbers as upperclassmen because they were good teammates, coachable, and wanted to win.

And they are the two winningest guards in the history of the program. I judge guards on winning more than individual stats. I hate to see GB and KP undervalued by Zag fans. IMO the only pair that did more for the program over their careers are Frahm/Santangelo.

krozman
10-24-2015, 11:33 PM
I think it's different to judge the "best guards of all time" with "what guards in GU history would work best with the current team, minus our current guards." I like DD and Stepp on an island, but I somewhat agree that santangelo with our current team you're looking for an assist leader and not a scorer. Oh the fun arguments in the preseason!

hooter73
10-25-2015, 07:20 AM
You really can't look at the points scored as your benchmark because of how much bell and pangos deterred. Youve got to look at their games won and percentages on the shots they did take . DD and BS you just knew the ball was going in and the spots they shot from, the ways they got open...

SunDevilGolfZag
10-25-2015, 07:30 AM
The duo of John Stockton and running mate Jeff Condill merits some consideration. JC was a good quality guard along side Stockton in the 83-84 year. I think after being all WCAC the next year JC had a nice little career overseas--not unlike other mentioned great GU guards. Anyway they were a fun duo to watch in the pre-ESPN days

hockeyzag
10-25-2015, 09:31 AM
Link????????

TheGonzagaFactor
10-26-2015, 06:40 AM
The duo of John Stockton and running mate Jeff Condill merits some consideration. JC was a good quality guard along side Stockton in the 83-84 year. I think after being all WCAC the next year JC had a nice little career overseas--not unlike other mentioned great GU guards. Anyway they were a fun duo to watch in the pre-ESPN days



Any NCAA appearances? Next.

kitzbuel
10-26-2015, 08:32 AM
Link????????

It is in the original post. Here it is again: http://www.midmajormadness.com/2015/10/23/9600572/mid-major-madness-preseason-power-15-gonzaga-bulldogs-zags

I like the fact that he picks up on the potential guard strength this year. The Zags really do have the ability to mix and match guard combinations. Hopefully the assortment of guards and combinations make game planning a major chore for opponents. I still think guard play will be a noted team strength this season.

sittingon50
10-26-2015, 09:19 AM
Any NCAA appearances? Next.

Apples & Oranges, Factor. 32 team tourney & no WCC auto bid, IIRC.

mgadfly
10-26-2015, 09:42 AM
Does Frahm count as a guard though? I don't have the 98-99 stats in front of me, but I'm pretty sure Q and Santangelo logged heavy minutes at the guard spots while Santangelo fitted into the 3rd guard spot (i.e. SF) quite a bit (at least the year that we went to the Elite 8). If we are adding guys that played that third spot a lot can we consider Raivio - Morrison?

I don't think the author should lose any credibility by calling KP and GB the best guard combo at GU. A good case can be made. A good case can also be made for DD/BS and MS/RF. However, playing as a 1 and 2 on the court, (I think) KP and GB were the only guards (that people are considering) to take us to the Elite 8.

maynard g krebs
10-26-2015, 11:56 AM
Does Frahm count as a guard though? I don't have the 98-99 stats in front of me, but I'm pretty sure Q and Santangelo logged heavy minutes at the guard spots while Santangelo fitted into the 3rd guard spot (i.e. SF) quite a bit (at least the year that we went to the Elite 8). If we are adding guys that played that third spot a lot can we consider Raivio - Morrison?

I don't think the author should lose any credibility by calling KP and GB the best guard combo at GU. A good case can be made. A good case can also be made for DD/BS and MS/RF. However, playing as a 1 and 2 on the court, (I think) KP and GB were the only guards (that people are considering) to take us to the Elite 8.

You're right. Hall averaged about 12-13 ppg his last year and Frahm played the 3 as a jr. Hall, MS, RF, Calvary, Eaton started; all but Calvary in dbl figures scoring; he just missed. His sr year Frahm played a lot more 2 as Santangelo and Floyd were the only small guards.

Agree with your second paragraph as well, but I'd add that the Hall/Santangelo backcourt was as good as any.