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jchocolate99
10-15-2015, 09:10 AM
Zags come in at number #11 one above Witchita St. and one below AZ... curious what the AP will have us at cause I thought we would be around 15 with the unknown of our backcourt

1 Kentucky (11) 0-0 749
1 North Carolina (12) 0-0 749
3 Maryland (5) 0-0 723
4 Duke (3) 0-0 686
5 Kansas (1) 0-0 675
6 Virginia 0-0 667
7 Iowa State 0-0 541
8 Oklahoma 0-0 520
9 Villanova 0-0 498
10 Arizona 0-0 477
11 Gonzaga 0-0 468
12 Wichita St 0-0 461
13 Michigan State 0-0 386
14 California 0-0 350
15 Indiana 0-0 312
16 Utah 0-0 250
17 Wisconsin 0-0 181
18 Notre Dame 0-0 172
19 LSU 0-0 163
20 Vanderbilt 0-0 153
21 Baylor 0-0 145
22 Butler 0-0 132
23 West Virginia 0-0 125
24 Connecticut 0-0 110
24 Purdue 0-0 110


http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings

strikenowhere
10-15-2015, 09:31 AM
Zags come in at number #11 one above Witchita St. and one below AZ... curious what the AP will have us at cause I thought we would be around 15 with the unknown of our backcourt

1 Kentucky (11) 0-0 749
1 North Carolina (12) 0-0 749
3 Maryland (5) 0-0 723
4 Duke (3) 0-0 686
5 Kansas (1) 0-0 675
6 Virginia 0-0 667
7 Iowa State 0-0 541
8 Oklahoma 0-0 520
9 Villanova 0-0 498
10 Arizona 0-0 477
11 Gonzaga 0-0 468
12 Wichita St 0-0 461
13 Michigan State 0-0 386
14 California 0-0 350
15 Indiana 0-0 312
16 Utah 0-0 250
17 Wisconsin 0-0 181
18 Notre Dame 0-0 172
19 LSU 0-0 163
20 Vanderbilt 0-0 153
21 Baylor 0-0 145
22 Butler 0-0 132
23 West Virginia 0-0 125
24 Connecticut 0-0 110
24 Purdue 0-0 110


http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings

That ranking is too low (High? Not good enough!) - I seriously think people are underestimating how good the Zags will be this year. I would say Top 5 myself. I know the question is about our back court, but Perkins is going to lead the way here!

jchocolate99
10-15-2015, 09:33 AM
well if we handle business in the the Battle for Atlantis tourney we'll most definitely crack that top 5 I think

Zags_Fanatic
10-15-2015, 09:36 AM
Surprised to see Arizona at #10, but that could really end up working in our favor when they come to visit. Seems like UNC should be the definitive #1 if they have the same number of points but one more first-place vote.

MDABE80
10-15-2015, 09:45 AM
I was thinking 10 for us considering the front line we have and the 2 returning guards . But nobody's won a game yet so lots of this is wishful thinking........and conjectural. Likewise, nobody's lost a game wither.
We win, we ascend, we lose, we go the wrong direction. 1 month till Atlantis. 3 weeks till the first exhibition.
I expect we'll be a top 10 all season. Go Zags.

TheGonzagaFactor
10-15-2015, 09:48 AM
Glad to see we aren't in the top 10, although ending up there could definitely happen. We have enough hype around us already. Finally, something the team could see as disrespect to motivate them.

TheGonzagaFactor
10-15-2015, 09:49 AM
well if we handle business in the the Battle for Atlantis tourney we'll most definitely crack that top 5 I think

That early, most likely with no wins against top 25 teams? Possible, but it'd take some mega upsets (multiple top 5 teams losing guarantee games at home).

ProjectMKUltra5
10-15-2015, 09:57 AM
Seems about right. This love affair with Iowa St is starting to piss me off though, there's not a single argument that can be made as to why they're 4 spots higher then Gonzaga. None.

hooter73
10-15-2015, 10:10 AM
Seems about right. This love affair with Iowa St is starting to piss me off though, there's not a single argument that can be made as to why they're 4 spots higher then Gonzaga. None.

Exactly my first thought too.


If we run Atlantis, and inevitably two or three of theses top tens will lose in the first month, i see us at #7. It'll take through Dec to get #5 and then its all up to other teams losing. We can run through league play unbeaten and not gain the RPI to move up on our own.

jchocolate99
10-15-2015, 10:15 AM
Glad to see we aren't in the top 10, although ending up there could definitely happen. We have enough hype around us already. Finally, something the team could see as disrespect to motivate them.

Come on Zagnation... we need to get away from this mindset that we always need to be put in a spot so we feel disrespected so we can be motivated... We're a national powerhouse so the fanbase needs to act like it too.

titopoet
10-15-2015, 10:43 AM
Seems about right. This love affair with Iowa St is starting to piss me off though, there's not a single argument that can be made as to why they're 4 spots higher then Gonzaga. None.

Nah, no need to get angry. Take care of business and we will finish better than they do. It how you finish after all. I think Karno and the zero preseason love should be a motivating factor. He is the best center in America (Scoring, passing and BB IQ are all off the charts) and he is treated as an aside to Kyle and Sabonis. It is a three headed frontcourt monster. Lets hope we get the Cyclones in the tournament (if they can get by UAB this season, that is)

tinfoilzag
10-15-2015, 10:51 AM
It looks like we will be following the same pattern this year as in previous years:

1. A bit underestimated before the season starts (IMO we are a top 7 team)
2. Too much hype after people see us in the early season tournaments... "Is little Gonzaga the best team in the nation?" articles
3. Backlash and chants of overrated/never-been-to-FF after we drop a game (or even have a scare) against a WCC opponent
4. Win the WCC tourney (that is considered to be a weak by most) and have to listen to "who have they played lately" arguments for a week while the seeds are being decided
5. Mandatory comment in every article that has a Gonzaga mention "Gonzaga wouldn't even be in the top half of the<list power conference>"

I'm hoping after the regular season we get a decent seed and change the pattern. It just takes one Final Four to do that.

mgadfly
10-15-2015, 10:55 AM
I've kept mostly quiet on all the prediction threads because I think I'm in the minority. I actually think the ranking is pretty good and maybe a little optimistic (at least for the start of the season). My guess is that our front court isn't as dominant (no doubt they will be very good) as people are predicting and our back court isn't as green as people think. Here is my take on what I think will happen... We will suffer an injury early in the season and have to adjust. We will also be trying to work in a few players that don't have a lot of court time. We will struggle at times with decision-making and we will lose three games before conference play. There will be all sorts of tirades and doom casting done on this board. We will then get things going really well in league play and drop one game on the road after having a couple close calls.

We will then dominate the WCC tournament and get a 2 seed with 4 losses on our resume.

When playing in the tournament, the lessons learned early in the season will become blessings. We will make a deep run and a final four appearance. Two weeks later a new Facebook page will be started requesting the termination of Mark Few for failing to win the national championship.

Mantua
10-15-2015, 10:56 AM
Just missed the top ten! I hate that 'cause I like the extra media coverage. Is Villanova all that deserving? Are we going to be a top ten team? :eek: ...Nervous.

Just a note to say that I think there's a chance our back court could be surprisingly good.

btzag
10-15-2015, 11:00 AM
Come on Zagnation... we need to get away from this mindset that we always need to be put in a spot so we feel disrespected so we can be motivated... We're a national powerhouse so the fanbase needs to act like it too.
This exactly. So tired of the underdog theme. It even feels like some in the fan base believe we have real back court questions because some talking heads haven't done enough research to know how talented our returning group is there. Check out unc from last year and all their question marks and they are #1! Funny how that works.

hooter73
10-15-2015, 11:10 AM
I'm hoping after the regular season we get a decent seed and change the pattern. It just takes one Final Four to do that.

Tell that to Butler :)

btzag
10-15-2015, 11:11 AM
I've kept mostly quiet on all the prediction threads because I think I'm in the minority. I actually think the ranking is pretty good and maybe a little optimistic (at least for the start of the season). My guess is that our front court isn't as dominant (no doubt they will be very good) as people are predicting and our back court isn't as green as people think.
I think your comment on the back court is correct as a Perkins/McClellan pg rotation will be very good and McClellan/Melson/Alberts at the 2 is very talented and athletic. However this front court might be the best in the whole country. Hands down. You will not find a better shooting big than wiltjer, karno is probably the best true BIG center in the country and the sabonis is talented beast at the 4 and already showing up on AA lists. Oh and the add in Edwards off the bench... I challenge anyone to name another front court that can compete with that anywhere in the country.

mgadfly
10-15-2015, 11:44 AM
You mentioned North Carolina in your previous post. How about these four for your front court:

C Sr. Brice Johnson 6'9" top 50 4 star recruit with lots of experience coming off a very good season. Blocks shots, rebounds, scores.
PF Jr. Isaiah Hicks 6'8" to 15 5 star recruit with experience that was getting things going toward the end of last season.
C Sr. Joel James 6'10 4 star recruit, top 60 nationally who has played behind people. He at least gives them an Edwards like 4th option.
PF Jr. Kennedy Meeks 6'9" 4 star recruit, experience, good rebounder, shot-blocker, and scorer.

I think UNC's front court is top five and ours is probably the best, but my point is only that there will be some teams that can definitely compete with ours (Kentucky, Maryland, Purdue - and I saw Poeltl play in person last year and while he may not have much help, he could be a monster by himself this year).

And I also relish the under dog role and think it is completely legit. What's awesome is that we continue, year after year, to beat teams we have no business beating. Our active roster currently has two players that were ranked in the top 100 nationally (composite score via verbal commits dot com). Of course a very strong case could be made that Sabonis would have been ranked and Karnowski probably would have been top 100 as well. Even so, that's 3 or 4 guys in the top 100. The only top 25 guy we have is Wiltjer. Our average recruit star rating for our nine expected contributors is 2.92. Compare that with UNC who has at least 8 guys expected to contribute in the Top 60. 7 of those were top 10 recruits at their position. Their average star rating for their contributors is 4.41.

You can find similar comparisons in our available resources, conference affiliations, etc... But I'm not saying this to claim we aren't legitimate national title contenders or that we aren't a powerhouse, I'm saying it because we are David and we kick Goliath's bottom year after year, game after game, and it is fantastic and oh so much sweeter for it. At least to me.

tinfoilzag
10-15-2015, 12:09 PM
Tell that to Butler :)

I think Butler's name has more respect from the regular fan than Gonzaga and the national championship visits are the reason.

A FF would make us less interesting to writers and talking heads who put together the same stories every year creating backlash from fans who think we get too much press.

RenoZag
10-15-2015, 12:29 PM
well if we handle business in the the Battle for Atlantis tourney we'll most definitely crack that top 5 I think

Beat Pitt !

hooter73
10-15-2015, 12:47 PM
You mentioned North Carolina in your previous post. How about these four for your front court:

C Sr. Brice Johnson 6'9" top 50 4 star recruit with lots of experience coming off a very good season. Blocks shots, rebounds, scores.
PF Jr. Isaiah Hicks 6'8" to 15 5 star recruit with experience that was getting things going toward the end of last season.
C Sr. Joel James 6'10 4 star recruit, top 60 nationally who has played behind people. He at least gives them an Edwards like 4th option.
PF Jr. Kennedy Meeks 6'9" 4 star recruit, experience, good rebounder, shot-blocker, and scorer.

I think UNC's front court is top five and ours is probably the best, but my point is only that there will be some teams that can definitely compete with ours (Kentucky, Maryland, Purdue - and I saw Poeltl play in person last year and while he may not have much help, he could be a monster by himself this year).

And I also relish the under dog role and think it is completely legit. What's awesome is that we continue, year after year, to beat teams we have no business beating. Our active roster currently has two players that were ranked in the top 100 nationally (composite score via verbal commits dot com). Of course a very strong case could be made that Sabonis would have been ranked and Karnowski probably would have been top 100 as well. Even so, that's 3 or 4 guys in the top 100. The only top 25 guy we have is Wiltjer. Our average recruit star rating for our nine expected contributors is 2.92. Compare that with UNC who has at least 8 guys expected to contribute in the Top 60. 7 of those were top 10 recruits at their position. Their average star rating for their contributors is 4.41.

You can find similar comparisons in our available resources, conference affiliations, etc... But I'm not saying this to claim we aren't legitimate national title contenders or that we aren't a powerhouse, I'm saying it because we are David and we kick Goliath's bottom year after year, game after game, and it is fantastic and oh so much sweeter for it. At least to me.

Boy I like the way you think!

hooter73
10-15-2015, 12:50 PM
I think Butler's name has more respect from the regular fan than Gonzaga and the national championship visits are the reason.

A FF would make us less interesting to writers and talking heads who put together the same stories every year creating backlash from fans who think we get too much press.

Oh the name def. does, but the thing with Butler is that they backed up their back to back NC trips with a CBI loss the next (third) year. Staying power has a lot to do with a lot and while we dont have that FF spring board, we are constantly knocking on the door of it... if you look at who we lose to and where they eventually go.

Zaga
10-15-2015, 12:58 PM
JP can silence the negative Zag chatter with several double - doubles in OC play.

titopoet
10-15-2015, 01:25 PM
You mentioned North Carolina in your previous post. How about these four for your front court:

C Sr. Brice Johnson 6'9" top 50 4 star recruit with lots of experience coming off a very good season. Blocks shots, rebounds, scores.
PF Jr. Isaiah Hicks 6'8" to 15 5 star recruit with experience that was getting things going toward the end of last season.
C Sr. Joel James 6'10 4 star recruit, top 60 nationally who has played behind people. He at least gives them an Edwards like 4th option.
PF Jr. Kennedy Meeks 6'9" 4 star recruit, experience, good rebounder, shot-blocker, and scorer.

I think UNC's front court is top five and ours is probably the best, but my point is only that there will be some teams that can definitely compete with ours (Kentucky, Maryland, Purdue - and I saw Poeltl play in person last year and while he may not have much help, he could be a monster by himself this year).

And I also relish the under dog role and think it is completely legit. What's awesome is that we continue, year after year, to beat teams we have no business beating. Our active roster currently has two players that were ranked in the top 100 nationally (composite score via verbal commits dot com). Of course a very strong case could be made that Sabonis would have been ranked and Karnowski probably would have been top 100 as well. Even so, that's 3 or 4 guys in the top 100. The only top 25 guy we have is Wiltjer. Our average recruit star rating for our nine expected contributors is 2.92. Compare that with UNC who has at least 8 guys expected to contribute in the Top 60. 7 of those were top 10 recruits at their position. Their average star rating for their contributors is 4.41.

You can find similar comparisons in our available resources, conference affiliations, etc... But I'm not saying this to claim we aren't legitimate national title contenders or that we aren't a powerhouse, I'm saying it because we are David and we kick Goliath's bottom year after year, game after game, and it is fantastic and oh so much sweeter for it. At least to me.

The ratings with respect to GU are a little bit different. Neither Karno nor Sabonis were rated. Clearly these two would have been top 25 if not higher (both probably 5 stars recruits). Remember GU beat out Kansas, Duke and Cal for Karno (Many after seeing Sabonis had him top ten last year.) Having such a pipeline to foreign gold makes GU harder to gage. UNC is very good frontcourt, but they had more trouble with Duke's frontcourt last year than GU did. Looking at the 99 team as they interacted with 2015 at Kraziness in the Kennel, size wise we are one of the Big Boys... literally.

jazzdelmar
10-15-2015, 02:34 PM
Nowhere to go but up

jazzdelmar
10-15-2015, 02:37 PM
I think Butler's name has more respect from the regular fan than Gonzaga and the national championship visits are the reason.

A FF would make us less interesting to writers and talking heads who put together the same stories every year creating backlash from fans who think we get too much press.


They did lose their brilliant coach.

maynard g krebs
10-15-2015, 04:48 PM
Given the circumstances, I'm fine with an 11 ranking now. Nationally, it isn't understood how good Perkins is, in general, though a few people seem to get it. GU fans are the only ones who widely understand this.

We remember how good Bell/Pangos were as true frosh; Perkins will be better than both. By the end of November, jaws will be dropping nationwide at his passes. And he has two smart, savvy veterans on the wings beside him, guys who can play but are underrated for a number of reasons. And a couple of talented youngsters in reserve.

Nationally, people are looking at a team replacing its entire starting perimeter, so it's understandable that there's doubt from those who don't follow the team as closely as this board does. I don't have any doubt about how good the backcourt will be; therefore I understand those who think the team deserves a top 10 ranking. But I also see the other side of the argument.

jazzdelmar
10-15-2015, 05:08 PM
Given the circumstances, I'm fine with an 11 ranking now. Nationally, it isn't understood how good Perkins is, in general, though a few people seem to get it. GU fans are the only ones who widely understand this.

We remember how good Bell/Pangos were as true frosh; Perkins will be better than both. By the end of November, jaws will be dropping nationwide at his passes. And he has two smart, savvy veterans on the wings beside him, guys who can play but are underrated for a number of reasons. And a couple of talented youngsters in reserve.

Nationally, people are looking at a team replacing its entire starting perimeter, so it's understandable that there's doubt from those who don't follow the team as closely as this board does. I don't have any doubt about how good the backcourt will be; therefore I understand those who think the team deserves a top 10 ranking. But I also see the other side of the argument.


Agree completely. JP is a E8 and FF level point guard. KP was a trouper and a leader but JP is a superior all round player. Mac will out produce and be far more consistent than Bell.

zag67
10-15-2015, 06:28 PM
I also agree that nationally they do not understand our backcourt. First, we have Dranginis who has about 20 minutes per game experience for the complete season. He played during critical times of all games. We have McClellan, who averaged 8 minutes a game here, started at 2 other schools. Then we have Perkins, who was averaging 20 minutes per game for 5 games until the injury. Therefore he had practice time and 5 games with the starters. Lastly, you have Melson, who had 30 games of about 10 minutes per game. With Alberts who redshirted last year. THIS TO ME IS NOT a backcourt that does not have experience. Will they have growing pains, probably. But hopefully we have the total power to still win most or all of these games. I think that this backcourt is going to be better than many think. This may be a great "team".

WallaWallaZag
10-16-2015, 12:23 AM
We remember how good Bell/Pangos were as true frosh; Perkins will be better than both. By the end of November, jaws will be dropping nationwide at his passes.

one subtle reason i believe perkins will shine right away is that he is being handed the keys to the car, just like pangos/bell their freshman year, though with a much better supporting cast and an extra year of knowledge. i've always felt that part of melson's struggles last year was trying to find his role and fit in considering the sudden nature of his season and limited minutes available. i believe melson could have put up a similar season to freshman bell had he been in the same situation...and i think very highly of bell's freshman year...in fact he probably peaked as a freshman in terms of how dynamic a player he was, though maybe not quite the defender he eventually turned into.

Reborn
10-16-2015, 05:40 AM
I fantastic ranking. Lot's of room to go up, and lots of time. Why worry and fret when there's nothing to worry about. The season hasn't even started yet. Is this the highest pre-season ranking the Zags have gotten?

TheGonzagaFactor
10-16-2015, 06:28 AM
Seems about right. This love affair with Iowa St is starting to piss me off though, there's not a single argument that can be made as to why they're 4 spots higher then Gonzaga. None.

I agree, I think they've been generally overrated, but we don't have much of an argument to be above them either. No games have been played yet. Just goes to show how worthless preseason polls are.

TheGonzagaFactor
10-16-2015, 06:45 AM
Come on Zagnation... we need to get away from this mindset that we always need to be put in a spot so we feel disrespected so we can be motivated... We're a national powerhouse so the fanbase needs to act like it too.


This exactly. So tired of the underdog theme. It even feels like some in the fan base believe we have real back court questions because some talking heads haven't done enough research to know how talented our returning group is there. Check out unc from last year and all their question marks and they are #1! Funny how that works.

I think I was misunderstood. A national powerhouse can be ranked #11 to start and feel disrespected. We're talking about the NUMBER ELEVEN ranking--that's pretty good!!! Michigan State, more of a powerhouse than we are by a mile, was ranked low to start last season, had an awful start, and made the F4. We can sure as hell do the same from 11.

There is a big difference between a #11 national ranking and an "underdog." #11 in the preseason is considered a title contender most years. I was saying there's more room to climb from 11 than from higher, and that should be a nice motivator. I want this team to be as motivated as possible.

I think we are getting a scary amount of (mostly deserved) hype and it's good to see something that might motivate the guys even more than they already are. That doesn't mean I don't think we are really, really good.

Even if I WAS trying to pin us as an "underdog"... what's wrong with that? In my mind it's better than acting like we're hot **** without a final four. To me that's delusional.

We should have an awesome team. I don't think they NEED to be put in a spot to be disrespected, I just think a good ranking with room to climb is perfect for this team, especially with the hype we've been getting.

DixieZag
10-16-2015, 07:47 AM
From now on, if anyone wants to know where we will be ranked by AP, please just PM me and ask me what I think we should be ranked and then add 3.5 Works every single time.

I am also one of the very few that think these polls do have a tiny bit of significance in that it sets up the initial expectations game. In my mind, the higher a team starts the season, the quicker they rise after a loss, or double losses, because there's the expectation of them being at a higher level. And, ultimately, rankings do have a slight (very slight) impact on how the committee perceives a team.

So, of course they matter very little, but I don't think it is accurate to say "nothing."

Shanachie
10-16-2015, 10:16 AM
Nationally, it isn't understood how good Perkins is, in general, though a few people seem to get it. GU fans are the only ones who widely understand this.



I hope you are right about this. I'm excited to watch Josh play, but in truth I can't say with any confidence that our backcourt will be better than last year. I'm hopeful, but I think that it is being overly optimistic to think that the Zags won't miss a beat after losing the entire starting backcourt (who had something like 270 career starts among them). I think the Zags are going to be really good, but I'm expecting a few bumps along the way.

mattydog73
10-16-2015, 10:33 AM
To me, the ranking is a mixture of Coaches who can only know so much about each team and their ever changing roster blended with, what has become, a natural tendency to temper expectations regarding GU's performance ability on a national level.

#11 ranking for me is perfect. It speaks to exactly how I feel. "A team that showed out great last year, easily could be better this year, but there are a couple question marks that will require the actual playing of the games to answer..."

Can't wait for the season to start!

maynard g krebs
10-16-2015, 11:08 AM
I hope you are right about this. I'm excited to watch Josh play, but in truth I can't say with any confidence that our backcourt will be better than last year. I'm hopeful, but I think that it is being overly optimistic to think that the Zags won't miss a beat after losing the entire starting backcourt (who had something like 270 career starts among them). I think the Zags are going to be really good, but I'm expecting a few bumps along the way.

I didn't intend to diminish Bell and Pangos at all. If I had an altar with little statues of Zag saints, they'd both be on it. I worship those guys. But I'm confident that Perkins is the closest thing to Jason Kidd that the college game has seen in 2 decades. He won't play like a fr. And the guys on the wings will defend, score enough to keep defenses honest, and make smart decisions and move the ball well, which is all that is needed from them to make the overall perimeter game as good as last year. I just said Perkins would be better than either GB or KP were as frosh, not that the backcourt would be better this year overall. That's a high bar. I think it's possible if they can collectively shoot the 3 well enough, but yes, it's fair to expect a few bumps early.

btzag
10-16-2015, 11:18 AM
GonzagaFactor you kind of made my point. We have a good team that can challenge for a FF this year no matter 15 or 11 or 5. I think most on this board believe we are slightly under-ranked right now. However many Zag fans would prefer us to be slighted or even insulted by national opinions to somehow extra motivate the players to greater heights. I get that opinion but I for one am tired of that theme and am ready for the program to play from a position of; we are damn good and going to crush our opponents because we are a top 10 team.

Also these rankings definitely matter from a national exposure perspective and even recruiting. Higher your ranking, the more press you get, plus kids recognize the difference between a top 5 team and the others in the top 25. So in my view any under ranking hurts the program even if it is seemingly inconsequential.

Zagricultural
10-18-2015, 06:03 AM
I actually think this is about right. I am super excited to see this year's backcourt, but I have been watching a lot of games and don't see it being nearly as good as last year's. Maybe by March, but Kevin and Gary did all the little things, and I cannot imagine replacing all those three point shots. It was the constant threat of the three that also helped give the post room to operate. IMO KD is going to be a huge huge factor in whether or not this team gets there. Full court pressure, and improved D could really take up the slack. It's going to be fun!

Bogozags
10-18-2015, 07:53 AM
I didn't intend to diminish Bell and Pangos at all. If I had an altar with little statues of Zag saints, they'd both be on it. I worship those guys. But I'm confident that Perkins is the closest thing to Jason Kidd that the college game has seen in 2 decades. He won't play like a fr. And the guys on the wings will defend, score enough to keep defenses honest, and make smart decisions and move the ball well, which is all that is needed from them to make the overall perimeter game as good as last year. I just said Perkins would be better than either GB or KP were as frosh, not that the backcourt would be better this year overall. That's a high bar. I think it's possible if they can collectively shoot the 3 well enough, but yes, it's fair to expect a few bumps early.

MGK you are once again spot on...I remember watching Kidd when I lived in Sacramento and Perkins has a similar game...of course the game is different today but he will bring back memories of one of the best PG's to have played...

mgadfly
10-18-2015, 09:43 AM
The ratings with respect to GU are a little bit different. Neither Karno nor Sabonis were rated. Clearly these two would have been top 25 if not higher (both probably 5 stars recruits). Remember GU beat out Kansas, Duke and Cal for Karno (Many after seeing Sabonis had him top ten last year.) Having such a pipeline to foreign gold makes GU harder to gage. UNC is very good frontcourt, but they had more trouble with Duke's frontcourt last year than GU did. Looking at the 99 team as they interacted with 2015 at Kraziness in the Kennel, size wise we are one of the Big Boys... literally.

I tried to point out that Karno and Sabonis may have been higher recruited. Even assuming they were top 10, five star recruits (which they wouldn't have been), that'd raise our average to 3.4 stars for contributors. On paper, we'd still be at a significant disadvantage to the Duke's, UNC's, Kentucky's, and Arizona's (i.e., not national title contenders). Luckily, we have a five star coaching staff and have recruited the type of 3 star players that, with a little time in the right system, perform like 4 and 5 star players. I'm very happy with who we are and realistic about it. I don't have to pretend like we are a power-conference blue-blood program. I'm happy being the constantly over-achieving under dog year after year.

Now, in comparison to most of the rest of the WCC, we are Goliath. And we've played that role really well, too.

seacatfan
10-18-2015, 11:26 AM
I think the Zags being ranked #11 in the first poll in spite of some of the questions pollsters might have about the perimeter players actually shows a fair bit of respect.

Preseason polls are WORTHLESS! They just don't matter. In football yes, but in basketball no.

Interesting that Butler has been mentioned a couple times. They did take a big step backward after the back-to-back Championship Game appearances. They have stabilized since, but I really don't think the Final 4 appearances (or move to the Big East) has given them the big boost in recruiting that deep runs in the Tourney are allegedly supposed to give a program. I'd say Gonzaga recruits at a higher level than Butler, and it's really not close. Wichita State's recent success also hasn't really helped them get blue chip recruits as far as I can tell. Interesting...

DixieZag
10-18-2015, 11:34 AM
I actually think this is about right. I am super excited to see this year's backcourt, but I have been watching a lot of games and don't see it being nearly as good as last year's. Maybe by March, but Kevin and Gary did all the little things, and I cannot imagine replacing all those three point shots. It was the constant threat of the three that also helped give the post room to operate. IMO KD is going to be a huge huge factor in whether or not this team gets there. Full court pressure, and improved D could really take up the slack. It's going to be fun!

I think both you and Maynard are correct.

It is difficult for us to appreciate how many mistakes didn't happen because Kevin and Gary were at the helm (I mean, they didn't happen, so, not like that's a stat), and Perk will make some of those mistakes. Also, there was some very pure shooting by Kevin that is perhaps top 3-4 Zag all time, and Gary hit clutch threes more often than his shooting of non-clutch 3s. So, that is certainly true.

But, Maynard is right in that Perkins will make plays that not only could Kevin/Gary not make, I think he will make plays that virtually no one in college ball will make, especially on the fast break. Our guys best have their heads up at all times or passes are going to be bouncing off those heads, passes that no one else would have seen, Stockton-like passing, Kidd-like passing. Perkins is the only recruit we've ever had that I watched entire high school games of. My only thought was - "the only player I have ever seen who plays like that is Jason Kidd." The entire GAME looked different with him on offense, it looked like some version of yo-yo, or something.

I saw him make a pass that I simply have never seen, never, he had a break-out with another player against 2 defenders back. The other guy was on the other side of the court and a little ahead. The two defenders were inside both of them. Perk did a looonnnngggg, hard, and LOW skip/bounce pass under the outstretched arms of the defenders. It was the only way to get the other guy the ball and an uncontested lay-up, and I had never seen that type of pass in basketball game. Of course his guy had to bend over a bit while running, but b/c Perk hit him perfectly in stride, it was easy. My jaw dropped.

Perk didn't make many 3s in the HS games I saw.

So, Perk and whomever will be making more mistakes along the way - may even lose us a game or two along the way. But my last memory of Kevin and Gary is of them having exactly zero room to operate against quicker, bigger, guards. Having a guy who can handle the way Perkins does, and the size available on the other side, bodes well for late season games against elite teams. Plus Perk seems to shoot it better than expected.

23dpg
10-18-2015, 01:42 PM
I've never thought about Kidd when watching Perkins. Kidd was soooo strong. He could rebound with the big guys.

GonzagasaurusFlex
10-18-2015, 03:18 PM
I've never thought about Kidd when watching Perkins. Kidd was soooo strong. He could rebound with the big guys.

....and he was terror defensively getting lots of steals. As much as I love the thought, JP has to show me a lot more before I drink the Jason Kidd Kool-Aid. I hope he does!!

jim77
10-18-2015, 06:35 PM
Don't have any problems with the rankings...a couple of victory's will fix that.

The Zags have a really good front court...and a couple of new starters in the backcourt this season. To me the 2 Kyle's are the key guys....GKYLE is a tough guy who plays VERY smart and settles things down...and Eric MAC is pretty chilled too. Its the FKYLE that can take over a game and IMO is the most dangerous offensive weapon in the country. This team has HIGH IQ...maybe the highest in college BB. If JP plays well...and I expect him too...the Zags are going to be tough to beat. I would favor NO team on the regular season schedule to beat the Zags....I think their that good. This team could lose 5 games...and the could go undefeated...either way their opponents better come to play cause the Zags are a handfull.

GoZags
10-19-2015, 05:55 AM
Don't have any problems with the rankings...a couple of victory's will fix that.

The Zags have a really good front court...and a couple of new starters in the backcourt this season. To me the 2 Kyle's are the key guys....GKYLE is a tough guy who plays VERY smart and settles things down...and Eric MAC is pretty chilled too. Its the FKYLE that can take over a game and IMO is the most dangerous offensive weapon in the country. This team has HIGH IQ...maybe the highest in college BB. If JP plays well...and I expect him too...the Zags are going to be tough to beat. I would favor NO team on the regular season schedule to beat the Zags....I think their that good. This team could lose 5 games...and the could go undefeated...either way their opponents better come to play cause the Zags are a handfull.

I'd sure take 5 losses ... if it meant 5 (or more) wins in the dance.