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View Full Version : WSU series to potentially end??!!



kclubfounder
10-05-2015, 01:14 PM
I think this would be a terrible decision.

http://sportspressnw.com/2209776/2015/gonzaga-may-end-hoops-series-with-cougars

maynard g krebs
10-05-2015, 01:32 PM
The unfortunate addition of Pacific makes it harder to schedule ooc.

Zagdawg
10-05-2015, 01:45 PM
And makes each and every "ooc" that much more important for getting a quality opponent. I hope we can keep it going.

MDABE80
10-05-2015, 01:53 PM
No...we do need to play them. It's just nonsense to pull a "Romar" and say we will enhance the schedule without the cougs. Long standing friends. They have a huge arena and they sell out for us. We do too. I can't see a major reason to NOT play WSU.

GonzagasaurusFlex
10-05-2015, 02:01 PM
And makes each and every "ooc" that much more important for getting a quality opponent. I hope we can keep it going.

Tough call. Hate to see Zags become "too good" for WSU and fans miss out on a great tradition. Respect for your roots and community etc.

I just wish the city of Chicago could boast a quality D-1 college hoops program that Zags could arrange a home v home series with, in which case I'd say drop the Cougs in a heartbeat 😀😀

amaronizag
10-05-2015, 02:05 PM
I agree Abe.....we DO need to play them. We need to preserve the tradition, but also opportunities for the fans to see home games. Playing at WSU is very close to a home game. As you pointed out, the games are always very well attended. The game last year in the Arena was packed and had a larger crowd than any of the Ronald McDonald House games (against better opponents) at the Arena I can remember. (What ever happened to those games anyway??) I've heard it suggested that many seats may have been purchased for that charity event that wasn't attended, but why would that be the case? I think we're going to pack the arena for any GU game. Let's keep it going for the local fans who rarely get to see live games!!!!!

Zagdawg
10-05-2015, 02:12 PM
We had the same discussion with the Eastern game and I am sure Gonzaga will do what is best for the program. Hopefully Wash state will stay on the schedule.

kclubfounder
10-05-2015, 02:16 PM
No...we do need to play them. It's just nonsense to pull a "Romar" and say we will enhance the schedule without the cougs. Long standing friends. They have a huge arena and they sell out for us. We do too. I can't see a major reason to NOT play WSU.

Exactly. And I'd bet that the schedule will be considered "enhanced" because there'll be one more home game every other year. Since it will likely be against a Mt. St. Mary's, St. Martin, or Northern Arizona, GU will be able to justify dropping WSU as effectively as the UW has been able to justify dropping GU.

Zagdawg
10-05-2015, 02:24 PM
"WSU" average "RPI" is 194 quick glance at last 3 years.

It makes sense to keep it as one of our cupcakes and just play in the arena every year.

bartruff1
10-05-2015, 02:26 PM
Give me a break....Gonzaga can play teams like Eastern Oregon, Northern Arizona, Mount St Maries, St Martin....but they can't fit WSU in ????

Zagdawg
10-05-2015, 02:37 PM
None of those poor "rpi" teams require a return trip to their gym.

bartruff1
10-05-2015, 02:46 PM
None of those poor "rpi" teams require a return trip to their gym.

Good point....but....there will be 4 or 5 of the same caliber teams on the schedule next year..

Zaggin' it
10-05-2015, 02:53 PM
"WSU" average "RPI" is 194 quick glance at last 3 years.

It makes sense to keep it as one of our cupcakes and just play in the arena every year.


Yes but it isn't a cupcake. The WSU game is always a war. You certainly need all the good Arizona's, UCLA's etc. you can get, and you need the RPI 194 teams to balance it out so it isn't a battle every single night. You need the RPI 194 team to work on things, get guys healthy, etc., The problem is, WSU in its current form doesn't do anything for your national profile besides damage you if you lose, and doesn't act like a typical RPI 194 team for that one night on the schedule. It's their superbowl. It's not the same as the UW thing because Gonzaga has to build the best resume it can build. An Arizona loss isn't going to hurt you on selection sunday, but a WSU darn well will. Gonzaga has to do what's best for Gonzaga to reach the intermediate goal, which is an at-large selection. The WSU does nothing for that goal, win or lose.

Zagdawg
10-05-2015, 02:54 PM
So you are saying keep them on the schedule as one of our early tune up games without a return game to their arena the following year. That would probably work- but I do not know the the cougars would go for it.

kclubfounder
10-05-2015, 02:55 PM
This was written by a Coug last year, and it is damn hard to argue against. http://www.scout.com/college/washington-state/story/1395163-more-thoughts-on-low-class-mark-few-and-gu

They played us for decades when they were FAR superior. If we drop them right now then that is flat out BS and I'll be ashamed of my school.

Zagdawg
10-05-2015, 02:59 PM
You said it perfectly-- it is not a cupcake game- it is a battle with a 194 "rpi" reward - especially at their house - always the possibility of a bad loss.
The reward does not outweigh the risk-- but for the tradition value - it makes sense to keep it around.

CDC84
10-05-2015, 03:04 PM
The WCC's needless conference expansion has shrunk the non-conference schedule to where tough decisions like this have to be considered. It's unfortunate. If GU weren't playing league games before Christmas, I don't think cutting WSU would be under consideration.

As for me, if given the choice, I'd rather see the WSU/GU series continue than see the UW/GU series resume. It's more of a true rivalry for me.

Makes me wonder if there might be a few more Coug fans in the stands in December?

77Zag
10-05-2015, 03:12 PM
Give me a break....Gonzaga can play teams like Eastern Oregon, Northern Arizona, Mount St Maries, St Martin....but they can't fit WSU in ????
+1000

GonzagasaurusFlex
10-05-2015, 03:15 PM
This was written by a Coug last year, and it is damn hard to argue against. http://www.scout.com/college/washington-state/story/1395163-more-thoughts-on-low-class-mark-few-and-gu

They played us for decades when they were FAR superior. If we drop them right now then that is flat out BS and I'll be ashamed of my school.

Excellent perspective from WSU. Thanks for the link. I am now firmly on the keep the Cougs on the schedule side of the fence. Zags have to find a balance between chasing national rep, exposure etc vs remaining true to yourself and your community.

primal23
10-05-2015, 03:15 PM
No...we do need to play them. It's just nonsense to pull a "Romar" and say we will enhance the schedule without the cougs. Long standing friends. They have a huge arena and they sell out for us. We do too. I can't see a major reason to NOT play WSU.

This exactly it stinks of pulling a Romar

jchocolate99
10-05-2015, 03:18 PM
People are acting like we don't play in a weaker conference that has recently expanded making it harder for us to schedule OOC games. In a perfect world would I like us to continue playing WSU sure why not but it's not a perfect world and the Zags only chance to have a good resume is to schedule tough OOC games. If and when WSU gets its program around than the series can be revisited until then it's time to move for a new series folks... Yeah, the games in Pullman have been anything other than gimmies for our Zags but everyone calling this a rivalry come on now its more a friendly rivalry. This is cougar country with a school down the highway that essentially shares our Eastern WA values... UW IS a rivalry with two different sides of the state that have different values and two fan bases that truly hate each other... I'm looking forward to a GU/UW game I never look forward to a WSU game unless I'm actually at the game. At current moment WSU benefits more by playing us than we do playing them... WSU has opportunities to schedule tough OOC games and if for whatever reason they can't they have the PAC12 conference games to fall back on to build their resume... we don't' have that luxury folks we have to schedule that OOC as tough as we can... get over the nostalgia and "tradition" of the GU/WSU series and put your Zags first. I want this coaching staff to do everything within their powers to schedule the best games possible for our program and to help entice recruits to come to GU... WSU if we keep the series fine but if it gets cancelled I'm not losing sleep over it

Martin Centre Mad Man
10-05-2015, 03:20 PM
There was a time when WSU was doing us a favor by playing us. They're down (for now) and we have the better program at this time. That can change. There may come a day when a home and home rivalry with the local PAC-12 program is a season highlight. I would prefer to keep the rivalry going.

DixieZag
10-05-2015, 03:32 PM
The unfortunate addition of Pacific makes it harder to schedule ooc.

This is one of the worst conference moves (at least from our perspective) that have been made in a long while. Adding BYU was brilliant, a coup, to follow it up with finding just "anyone" was just short sighted/ long sighted poor judgment and even IF one just had to add a team, the obvious one was Seattle U whose profile would rise if it joined a real conference.

And I think every effort should be made to play the Cougs. It wasn't long ago they were an elite match-up.

Coach Crazy
10-05-2015, 03:59 PM
Much ado about nothing. Nothing is owed, and not really losing anything here. If you can fit them in at some future point, then sure, think about doing it for kicks and giggles. That WSU RPI is just awful. The way Gonzaga is trending is gonna be tough for a very specific segment of the Zag of the faithful. Hopefully the future McD's AA's, consistent EE and FF appearances, and NC rings will compensate for the difficult walk that is not having a rivalry with WSU, or never again getting to see the caliber of players like Matt Bouldin and Manny Arop?

maynard g krebs
10-05-2015, 04:11 PM
I haven't expressed an opinion either way, but agree with CDC and Jchocolate's points in general.

I couldn't find anything on google, but it would be interesting to know if in the old days WSU throughout history has played GU home and home when they were the superior program. If so I'd factor that into my thinking about the matter. I'm sure somebody can fill in the history; would be interesting to see.

Sampson ended the series in 88 after the Cougs lost a couple, so the reputation as "friendly rivals" is questionable over time. GU's move for a 2 for 1 last year is in the same vein; there's no obligation on either side to be nice based on the little history I can see.

I'll trust Roth and Few to make the best decision as to what's in the interest of the program. If I lived over there, I'd have a personal interest in the game being played.

zagamatic
10-05-2015, 04:24 PM
There's a certain quality that you get in a rivalry game that you don't get playing other teams unless they're a true quality team. Whether the Cougs are up or down, they will continue to have Pac12 quality athletes. Which is a good thing for the Zags because in a nutshell it's what they'll face in the first two rounds of the tournament - a highly motivated team with good athletes that aren't necessarily as skilled as the Zags have been lately. Not to mention that it's a delight for the local fans.

burgesszag
10-05-2015, 04:28 PM
Jack Friel, Marv Harshman, Jud Heathcote, and George Raveling drove beat up state cars and vans and buses to Spokane on icy roads to play Gonzaga...Gonzaga was an NAIA school and WSU had not one thing to gain on those icy roads except hopefully not get killed on the trip...I believe that all 4 of these coaches are in the NCAA
basketball Hall of Fame...Perhaps the Zags could continue to play the lowly Cougars as a testament to those 4 coaches who were not afraid to do a home and home with the lowly Zags of NAIA caliber..

ProjectMKUltra5
10-05-2015, 04:39 PM
And everyone laughed and balked when I talked about GU putting basketball decisions above being the good boys on the block.

Nothing is owed, if the series can't be renewed on terms that GU is comfortable with then it shouldn't be renewed, simple as that.

hondo
10-05-2015, 05:23 PM
"Jack Friel, Marv Harshman, Jud Heathcote, and George Raveling drove beat up state cars and vans and buses to Spokane on icy roads to play Gonzaga."

Jud was driving up here for the unenviable task of matching up against the legendary Bud Presley( GU freshman coach at the time).
Probably the 2 best coaches in the state were both coaching the freshmen teams at their respective school.

VaBeachZAG
10-05-2015, 06:00 PM
And everyone laughed and balked when I talked about GU putting basketball decisions above being the good boys on the block.

Nothing is owed, if the series can't be renewed on terms that GU is comfortable with then it shouldn't be renewed, simple as that.

I personally find it deeply disturbing that GU is seemingly now assuming the arrogant path of all those big name programs who in the past snickered (or outright belly laughed) at the suggestion of putting us on their schedule. Any suggestion whatsoever that one away game at WSU every other year would cause major harm to GU's national stature is pure bogus BS. I remember when WSU came to Kennedy Pavilion when no other major conference team would. So yes, something damn well is owed. We owe it to WSU to keep the series alive and we owe it to GU fans everywhere to show we will not sink to the arrogant lows of the likes of Romar. Make no mistake about it, some of the luster will diminish from GU's prestige in the eyes of many in the basketball world if we drop WSU, and rightly so!

DixieZag
10-05-2015, 06:00 PM
There's a certain quality that you get in a rivalry game that you don't get playing other teams unless they're a true quality team. Whether the Cougs are up or down, they will continue to have Pac12 quality athletes. Which is a good thing for the Zags because in a nutshell it's what they'll face in the first two rounds of the tournament - a highly motivated team with good athletes that aren't necessarily as skilled as the Zags have been lately. Not to mention that it's a delight for the local fans.

Exactly.

People are acting like WSU is always a bottom feeder when it wasn't long ago at all that I saw a game at McCarthy that involved a top ten Cougs and top 20 Gonzaga, one that a Super Bowl MVP Rypien couldn't get tickets from WSU to the game (strong demand) I was told by the gate guy that I could sell my ticket for $300 just outside the door. My father and I talked about how reasonable it would be to collect %600 and simply walk across the street and watch it at Jack and Dan's, use $50 for provisions. We didn't do it.

jchocolate99
10-05-2015, 06:57 PM
GU does not owe nothing to WSU... I keep seeing this posted on this thread talking about how they were the only team that would come to our arena... That is nice and all people but this is a business and if GU cancelled this series GU made a business decision... stop getting all emotional over another program that would do what they had to do also if they were in our situation... WSU has a power conference to fall back on WE DO NOT. People need to stop with the oh Mark Few is pulling an arrogant move nonsense. Programs like that are ducking legit competition because they are scared to take the risk of the loss how in the heck can you even say that would be the same thing in this situation?? It is not even close... If WSU was still competitve and had a decent to good RPI I'm sure this would be moot cause we would try to continue the series but WSU is not holding their end of this and we can't afford to keep waiting on them to get good cause we can not fall back on the WCC to increase our RPI... I get this is Cougar country and the sympathy and support will always be there for WSU but I am a Gonzaga basketball fan and my loyalties lie to this basketball program that has become a powerhouse albeit being in a conference that is not respected. This program is trying to do everything in their power to get us to play great competitions and series with legit programs to help our resume and keep our stature high in college basketball... give it a rest people WSU will be fine

btzag
10-05-2015, 07:37 PM
I personally find it deeply disturbing that GU is seemingly now assuming the arrogant path of all those big name programs who in the past snickered (or outright belly laughed) at the suggestion of putting us on their schedule. Any suggestion whatsoever that one away game at WSU every other year would cause major harm to GU's national stature is pure bogus BS. I remember when WSU came to Kennedy Pavilion when no other major conference team would. So yes, something damn well is owed. We owe it to WSU to keep the series alive and we owe it to GU fans everywhere to show we will not sink to the arrogant lows of the likes of Romar. Make no mistake about it, some of the luster will diminish from GU's prestige in the eyes of many in the basketball world if we drop WSU, and rightly so!

Completely agree with this point. I would find it very hypocritical if the GU program made this decision. You could probably pull some of UW's quotes from a few years back and match them up with the comments in that article. Disappointed with this news.

maynard g krebs
10-05-2015, 07:48 PM
Completely agree with this point. I would find it very hypocritical if the GU program made this decision. You could probably pull some of UW's quotes from a few years back and match them up with the comments in that article. Disappointed with this news.

Significant difference. GU was a top 25 program beating UW 8/9 when UW dropped series because they were losing. Going on the road to WSU is a possible bad loss or an undervalued win.

If Sampson hadn't once dropped GU to avoid any more "bad losses", it might be a different story, but turn about is fair play.

That said, I'd rather see the WSU game played than not.

ProjectMKUltra5
10-05-2015, 08:12 PM
Any comparison between this and UW running from GU is foolish at best. UW ran with its tail between its legs because they were getting that *** beat then proposed a ridiculous home and neutral in Seattle to make it look like GU backed out.

GU is a growing basketball program that is 12-3 against WSU under Few and needs every tough ooc game it can get due to the WCC. There also hasn't yet been some ridiculous counter offer that we've thrown their way.

So let's chill on the "arrogant" talk, these situations are totally different.

realtydog
10-05-2015, 08:27 PM
GU does not owe nothing to WSU... I keep seeing this posted on this thread talking about how they were the only team that would come to our arena... That is nice and all people but this is a business and if GU cancelled this series GU made a business decision... stop getting all emotional over another program that would do what they had to do also if they were in our situation... WSU has a power conference to fall back on WE DO NOT. People need to stop with the oh Mark Few is pulling an arrogant move nonsense. Programs like that are ducking legit competition because they are scared to take the risk of the loss how in the heck can you even say that would be the same thing in this situation?? It is not even close... If WSU was still competitve and had a decent to good RPI I'm sure this would be moot cause we would try to continue the series but WSU is not holding their end of this and we can't afford to keep waiting on them to get good cause we can not fall back on the WCC to increase our RPI... I get this is Cougar country and the sympathy and support will always be there for WSU but I am a Gonzaga basketball fan and my loyalties lie to this basketball program that has become a powerhouse albeit being in a conference that is not respected. This program is trying to do everything in their power to get us to play great competitions and series with legit programs to help our resume and keep our stature high in college basketball... give it a rest people WSU will be fine
this smells rather hubris.....how fast could we become DePaul, Texas football, Tulsa, etc.? if we want Cougar nation to despise us, then tell them no thanks..... I know that I never rooted against UW basketball harder than after they dropped us because they wanted a more "national" schedule...... I know if I live long enough there will be a day that we plead with WSU for a game.....but I shouldn't get emotional... that's not in the nature of a FANatic

kclubfounder
10-05-2015, 08:47 PM
I personally find it deeply disturbing that GU is seemingly now assuming the arrogant path of all those big name programs who in the past snickered (or outright belly laughed) at the suggestion of putting us on their schedule. Any suggestion whatsoever that one away game at WSU every other year would cause major harm to GU's national stature is pure bogus BS. I remember when WSU came to Kennedy Pavilion when no other major conference team would. So yes, something damn well is owed. We owe it to WSU to keep the series alive and we owe it to GU fans everywhere to show we will not sink to the arrogant lows of the likes of Romar. Make no mistake about it, some of the luster will diminish from GU's prestige in the eyes of many in the basketball world if we drop WSU, and rightly so!

Yep

kclubfounder
10-05-2015, 08:49 PM
this smells rather hubris.....how fast could we become DePaul, Texas football, Tulsa, etc.? if we want Cougar nation to despise us, then tell them no thanks..... I know that I never rooted against UW basketball harder than after they dropped us because they wanted a more "national" schedule...... I know if I live long enough there will be a day that we plead with WSU for a game.....but I shouldn't get emotional... that's not in the nature of a FANatic

And, if this terrible decision is made, WSU should give us the middle finger when that day comes. And boy will we ever deserve it.

jbslicer
10-06-2015, 06:00 AM
And, if this terrible decision is made, WSU should give us the middle finger when that day comes. And boy will we ever deserve it.

Well said. It's a CS move to drop the Cougs.

bartruff1
10-06-2015, 06:57 AM
Granted, it is a business, and in business your reputation is your most valuable asset. If you want to stay in business, you treat people fairly, because " what goes around will come around.".

LongIslandZagFan
10-06-2015, 07:03 AM
I am on the fence. But let's say you are given a choice between top B1G/ACC/B12 team or playing WSU... which would you choose. I agree this is directly related to Pacific being added. It is taking away 2 OOC games... and it hurts GU. What it means is that the front loaded resume building has less chances to build the resume.

Please note... WSU had no problems dropping GU way back in the day... it isn't as if this game has gone un-interrupted.

hegotit!
10-06-2015, 07:14 AM
So whats the point of adding UW to the schedule next year if WSU is being subtracted? Doesn't make much sense, the Cougs are on an upswing with Ernie.

bartruff1
10-06-2015, 07:17 AM
If I had to choose between St.Martins or WSU....I would chose WSU

GoZags
10-06-2015, 07:35 AM
Please note... WSU had no problems dropping GU way back in the day... it isn't as if this game has gone un-interrupted.

Bingo

TheGonzagaFactor
10-06-2015, 08:02 AM
I personally find it deeply disturbing that GU is seemingly now assuming the arrogant path of all those big name programs who in the past snickered (or outright belly laughed) at the suggestion of putting us on their schedule. Any suggestion whatsoever that one away game at WSU every other year would cause major harm to GU's national stature is pure bogus BS. I remember when WSU came to Kennedy Pavilion when no other major conference team would. So yes, something damn well is owed. We owe it to WSU to keep the series alive and we owe it to GU fans everywhere to show we will not sink to the arrogant lows of the likes of Romar. Make no mistake about it, some of the luster will diminish from GU's prestige in the eyes of many in the basketball world if we drop WSU, and rightly so!

*drops mic*

I agree completely. I love the WSU game. The environment is the toughest we play in during the seasons we go to Pullman and it's nice to have a game that Zag fans can get into at a reasonable price, not to mention you can get loud in there and no one will get mad at you.

If we are going to replace WSU with a 4+ year home-and-home with Duke/UNC/Ville/UK/KU/Wisconsin/MSU, then by all means dump Wazzu and act like they don't exist. Otherwise, keep them on the schedule.

GU69
10-06-2015, 08:20 AM
I remember when WSU came to Kennedy Pavilion when no other major conference team would.



Please note... WSU had no problems dropping GU way back in the day... it isn't as if this game has gone un-interrupted.


Seems to be a conflict between these memories.

My memory matches VaBeach's. For a while WSU was the only "big" school that would play GU.

bigblahla
10-06-2015, 08:33 AM
"Mr. Few needs to step down off his high horse. He needs to tear down that wall of arrogance he's built with all those first-round NCAA Tournament appearances.The recommendation here is that Cougar fans in Spokane start voting with their wallets. Don't attend, don't watch and don't acknowledge the Zags in any way -- at least not until Few and his sycophant AD, Mike Roth, check the ego at the door at go back to the standard home-and-home arrangement."

Please do Cougar fans...please leave K2 and never return so real Zag fans can have the seats you occupy while the TEAM you really cheer for continues their abysmal performance on the court year after year....no love for the cougars....ZERO...there is a reason that the phrase "couged it" exists....whether we keep on playing the cougs is up to the powers that be....K2 has many faux Zag fans who are nothing more than Cougs dyed in Zag clothing....every seat they hold can and would be filled by those of us who have no allegiance to the Crimson and Gray...works for me...

Just my opinion...

Go!! Zags!!!

ProjectMKUltra5
10-06-2015, 08:51 AM
Please do Cougar fans...please leave K2 and never return so real Zag fans can have the seats you occupy while the TEAM you really cheer for continues their abysmal performance on the court year after year....no love for the cougars....ZERO...there is a reason that the phrase "couged it" exists....whether we keep on playing the cougs is up to the powers that be....K2 has many faux Zag fans who are nothing more than Cougs dyed in Zag clothing....every seat they hold can and would be filled by those of us who have no allegiance to the Crimson and Gray...works for me...

Just my opinion...

Go!! Zags!!!

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Denzel-Washington-Boom-Gif.gif

realtydog
10-06-2015, 09:02 AM
[QUOTE=Please do Cougar fans...please leave K2 and never return so real Zag fans can have the seats you occupy while the TEAM you really cheer for continues their abysmal performance on the court year after year....no love for the cougars....ZERO...there is a reason that the phrase "couged it" exists....whether we keep on playing the cougs is up to the powers that be....K2 has many faux Zag fans who are nothing more than Cougs dyed in Zag clothing....every seat they hold can and would be filled by those of us who have no allegiance to the Crimson and Gray...works for me...
QUOTE]

very short sided ----Cougs outnumber Zags by tens of thousands in Eastern Washington if asked where loyalty rests-----I want them on the bandwagon---there's plenty of room------ besides a brief 5 year period under Kelvin Sampson(who was known as a complete jack azzz) from 90-95--the zags have played wsu on a home and home or neutral site (arena) for decades

“China is a sleeping giant. Let her sleep, for when she wakes she will move the world.” - N. Bonaparte
Let WSU sleep----we don't need them to develop a hatred----this is soooo much different than say St. Mary's, UW, Portland, etc. hating us ------just my opinion

vandalzag
10-06-2015, 09:24 AM
"Mr. Few needs to step down off his high horse. He needs to tear down that wall of arrogance he's built with all those first-round NCAA Tournament appearances.The recommendation here is that Cougar fans in Spokane start voting with their wallets. Don't attend, don't watch and don't acknowledge the Zags in any way -- at least not until Few and his sycophant AD, Mike Roth, check the ego at the door at go back to the standard home-and-home arrangement."

Please do Cougar fans...please leave K2 and never return so real Zag fans can have the seats you occupy while the TEAM you really cheer for continues their abysmal performance on the court year after year....no love for the cougars....ZERO...there is a reason that the phrase "couged it" exists....whether we keep on playing the cougs is up to the powers that be....K2 has many faux Zag fans who are nothing more than Cougs dyed in Zag clothing....every seat they hold can and would be filled by those of us who have no allegiance to the Crimson and Gray...works for me...

Just my opinion...

Go!! Zags!!!

Spokane is the leader of the bandwagon fan. WSU fans flock to Eastern Games and Zag games since the alternative in Pullman is not producing a winner. As soon as either program at WSU starts winning then the "die hard" fans will return . The dropping of the game is a tough one. I would much rather see them play WSU then ST. Martins or some of the other warm up games. And a home and home with Pac12 team should always be out there. Messy business this RPI and Brand building. But you would think that Roth would have learned how to sell it better based on how the Huskies messed the bed when they broke away.

exclusivelee
10-06-2015, 10:18 AM
And I'd bet that the schedule will be considered "enhanced" because there'll be one more home game every other year. Since it will likely be against a Mt. St. Mary's, St. Martin, or Northern Arizona, GU will be able to justify dropping WSU as effectively as the UW has been able to justify dropping GU.


I'll let you hate on all of those except for Northern Arizona. The Lumberjacks return 5 of their top 7 scorers from a team which lost in the CIT finals & won 23 games

I don't care much for the series with Wazzu, but it likely beats any replacement we could get.

Saint Martin's was only added because GU couldn't find anyone else for a matchup during finals week so that the Zags could play a 31-game regular season schedule. Still difficult to believe that they shared on Basketball Travellers in April that they were hoping to host a team for Mon, Dec 14, yet when the schedule is finally released roughly 5 months later, they only manage to lure in a D2 opponent

Alas, overall, the non-conference schedule is as good as its ever been, even with that hiccup

SWZag
10-06-2015, 10:24 AM
Play WSU or don't play WSU, you still have to win in March, regardless.

Would be an absolutely terrible move to drop WSU. In reality, what is gained?

bigblahla
10-06-2015, 10:40 AM
QUOTE] very short sided ----Cougs outnumber Zags by tens of thousands in Eastern Washington if asked where loyalty rests-----I want them on the bandwagon---there's plenty of room------ besides a brief 5 year period under Kelvin Sampson(who was known as a complete jack azzz) from 90-95--the zags have played wsu on a home and home or neutral site (arena) for decades[/QUOTE]

My comments are not directed at the myriad of band wagon fans you refer to but specifically to those coug fans who hold seats at K2 and go to Zag games and cheer the Zags on until the Cougs come to town and then they show their true colors...happens every other year....just saying there's plenty of real Zag fans willing to occupy those seats...

Go!! Zags!!!

LongIslandZagFan
10-06-2015, 11:00 AM
Seems to be a conflict between these memories.

My memory matches VaBeach's. For a while WSU was the only "big" school that would play GU.

No memories... facts...

89-90 season through 94-95 season... no Cougs on the schedule. Perhaps I was off on the "back in the day" but I knew there was a very extended gap in there.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/gonz/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/2014-15/misc_non_event/1415-record-book.pdf

Also... 95-96 expect for them playing in the NIT postseason tourney... so it wasn't scheduled that year.

Did I mention 2000-01???

Mr Vulture
10-06-2015, 11:29 AM
The problem is that I think WSU, in coming years, will be much better than 194. I think they will be much tougher this year than many expect. If you are scheduling as a "cupcake" you are misguided IMO.


"WSU" average "RPI" is 194 quick glance at last 3 years.

It makes sense to keep it as one of our cupcakes and just play in the arena every year.

maynard g krebs
10-06-2015, 12:00 PM
The problem is that I think WSU, in coming years, will be much better than 194. I think they will be much tougher this year than many expect. If you are scheduling as a "cupcake" you are misguided IMO.

I agree they could be a tough out at their place. Hawkinson is one of the best unknown players on the west coast, Ireogbu (sp?) is a tough cover and can get hot, Johnson as well. But Ernie isn't exactly recruiting at the level he did at UO, and probably won't, so it's an open question as to when/if the Cougs improve over the Bone years, and how much.

The question is, in the last decade, how many non WCC sub-150 rpi teams have the Zags played home and home?

Again, Sampson 88-95. There's no obligation, it's a business issue.

CDC84
10-06-2015, 12:21 PM
Whether people like it or not, Gonzaga is not going to drop one of the few guarantee games that they have space for each year - which are necessary to build program revenue and give the team a breather from its relentless, compressed non-league schedule - in order to schedule a home and home with WSU, or for that matter, anyone. The GU schedulers have actually turned down some significant home and home and neutral offers in recent times in order to schedule guarantee games like St. Martin's. As they should. College sports is in part a business.

There are only four guarantee games on this year's non-league sked, and one of them, Mount Saint Mary's, was essentially assigned to Gonzaga by the Battle 4 Atlantis folks. That's not a lot for a program like Gonzaga. That's not a lot for a program like WSU, either.

If the WSU series gets suspended for a period, I think it will ultimately be revealed to be a decision that was based entirely on GU's resumption of the UW series. It was either play WSU or play UW. The schedulers are now likely finding it difficult to create enough space to play both teams when league play starts before Christmas, and when GU continues to play in big time holiday tournaments in places like the Bahamas.

hooter73
10-06-2015, 12:41 PM
Adding Pacific did no one any favors adn I think this is a residual effect of that. Unfortunately, it had to be done with BYU coming in which did everyone (except BYU lol )a lot of good. WSU is a better rival game for the region but worse for RPI because we know even an off year WSU team somehow always manages to give us fits. Mitigating risk and all that, it is a business move. IF the home and home goes away, it'll be back, or more likely, an annual game in the Arena. While WSU is so down, GU holds all the cards.

229SintoZag
10-06-2015, 12:57 PM
Jack Friel, Marv Harshman, Jud Heathcote, and George Raveling drove beat up state cars and vans and buses to Spokane on icy roads to play Gonzaga...Gonzaga was an NAIA school and WSU had not one thing to gain on those icy roads except hopefully not get killed on the trip...I believe that all 4 of these coaches are in the NCAA
basketball Hall of Fame...Perhaps the Zags could continue to play the lowly Cougars as a testament to those 4 coaches who were not afraid to do a home and home with the lowly Zags of NAIA caliber..

Hate to burst your bubble, but Gonzaga has been a Division ! school since 1958 I believe, not NAIA since before then. So I know for sure the likes of Raveling, Heathcote, Harshman never played Gonzaga as an NAIA school.

But otherwise that was a cool story about the icy roads, bro.

ZagsGoZags
10-06-2015, 02:00 PM
Can we annul the marriage between the WCC and Univ. of Pacific?
seriously,
I think it would look bad, it would look like hubris, if we dropped the long rivalry, even though there have been gaps
also every spring I hear talking heads bring up the stat of how GU did (win-loss record) against BCS schools, and WSU is one of those

Angelo Roncalli
10-06-2015, 02:20 PM
How about we start a home and home series with Incarnate Word or Northwestern State?

They were just ahead of WSU in the season-ending RPI last year.

GoZags
10-06-2015, 02:20 PM
Can we annul the marriage between the WCC and Univ. of Pacific?
seriously,
I think it would look bad, it would look like hubris, if we dropped the long rivalry, even though there have been gaps
also every spring I hear talking heads bring up the stat of how GU did (win-loss record) against BCS schools, and WSU is one of those

Hmmmm. I clearly recall discussion of W/L against RPI Top 25; Top 50 and Top 100 but don't recall hearing discussion (or "talking heads" talking) about W/L vs "Power 5" schools.

Angelo Roncalli
10-06-2015, 02:24 PM
Interesting take posted on one of the WSU boards:


I doubt ANYONE actually thinks Few, with his talent, is scared of playing WSU. Definitely not being "chickensh*t". Just being prudent. There's really little to no benefit in playing WSU, especially now that they play UW. They win, so what. They lose & it hurts their seeding & placement. Nothing to gain.

Also disagree about it not being "broken", at least from Gonzaga's perspective. We bring nothing to the equation when we play them in Spokane, but they bring a lot to the equation in Pullman (Zag fans, largest crowd, etc.). Why not balance that out? I get it. Doesn't mean Kent has to agree to it or like it.

Bottom line - we need to be relevant, then & only then will we have a bargaining chip at the table.

Until then, the question is do we want to have a top tier team like Gonzaga in Pullman every 3 years, even if it means 1 road/1 neutral, or are we OK with not having a top tier team in Pullman at all?

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=137&f=1996&t=14158897&stm=175409211

scott257
10-06-2015, 03:51 PM
Some of you make it sound like WSU was a powerhouse that has done Gonzaga a favor by keeping the game going for so many years. Really? The last time WSU won a conference championship was the year the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. For the mathematically challenged that was 75 years ago. WSU has had maybe 10 years worth of really quality teams. This game is good from a regional perspective, nothing more, and even given the long standing nature of the rivalry WSU gains much more from this than Gonzaga does.

maynard g krebs
10-06-2015, 04:05 PM
For the mathematically challenged that was 75 years ago.

Actually, it was 74.:)

007Zag
10-06-2015, 04:35 PM
Can we annul the marriage between the WCC and Univ. of Pacific?

I think Pope Francis put something about that in the latest Motu Proprio.

Gonzdb8
10-06-2015, 04:52 PM
if we're relying on "tradition" to justify continuation of this series then we're really just admitting we don't have a reason.

Zagger
10-06-2015, 05:14 PM
Keep the Cougs! Add EWU too for that matter. If you've got a winning program it should make no difference who you play as long as you beat them. BTW - biased here as I'm a grad of all 3 schools :-)

scott257
10-06-2015, 05:37 PM
Actually, it was 74.:)

I've always counted myself amount the mathematically challenged. But funny story, the local high school band is fund raising to go and play at the 75th anniversary, so I didn't even bother to think that they are fund raising a year in advance. Guess I have a whole year of fund raising to look forward to and not just a couple of months. Anyway, it is a worthwhile effort.

kclubfounder
10-06-2015, 06:22 PM
if we're relying on "tradition" to justify continuation of this series then we're really just admitting we don't have a reason.

Huh, well that's an opinion. I'll give you that.

Zag 77
10-06-2015, 06:41 PM
For those who have one iota of the history of this series, this is a bad idea. This goes beyond the mere RPI value.

GU and Wazzu are regional rivals, and no, EWU, Whitworth and SU don't meet the same criteria in terms of importance, length of the series, and pure rivalry intensity. GU was done a horrible wrong not that many years ago when Kelvin Sampson was riding high and cancelled the series with GU. Fitz lobbied long and hard and Sampson's successors restored it. It would be unbelievably short-sighted for GU to drop this rivalry game.

ProjectMKUltra5
10-06-2015, 07:00 PM
Game with UW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Game with WSU

kclubfounder
10-06-2015, 07:20 PM
Game with UW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Game with WSU

So? Even if it was true (and it is NOT clearly true) what the heck difference does it make?

Answer: Very little.

LongIslandZagFan
10-06-2015, 08:43 PM
For those who have one iota of the history of this series, this is a bad idea. This goes beyond the mere RPI value.

GU and Wazzu are regional rivals, and no, EWU, Whitworth and SU don't meet the same criteria in terms of importance, length of the series, and pure rivalry intensity. GU was done a horrible wrong not that many years ago when Kelvin Sampson was riding high and cancelled the series with GU. Fitz lobbied long and hard and Sampson's successors restored it. It would be unbelievably short-sighted for GU to drop this rivalry game.

Again... for a good 6 years in the 90s... the rivalry meant nothing the Cougs. JMHO... I'd suspect it wouldn't be a permanent thing... but if I see more higher level teams on the schedule instead of WSU... the school needs to look out for itself first. Zags, for the forseable future will need to continue to front load the schedule. WSU... for now... is a drag on the RPI. If it is short term break to allow for much larger names to play in K2 or the Arena... make it happen. History is nice, but in the end it can't be used as a crutch to negatively impact GU.

lv2hoop
10-06-2015, 10:04 PM
If I had to choose between St.Martins or WSU....I would chose WSU

The St. Martin's game is listed as an exhibition so it wouldn't be an RPI counting game even if it was against a higher ranked opponent.

ZagaZags
10-06-2015, 10:56 PM
The St. Martin's game is listed as an exhibition so it wouldn't be an RPI counting game even if it was against a higher ranked opponent.

St. Martins is Mon, Dec 14. This game counts.

maynard g krebs
10-06-2015, 11:08 PM
St. Martins is Mon, Dec 14. This game counts.

D2 teams don't have an RPI, so though it counts on the record it doesn't count for the RPI.

ZagaZags
10-06-2015, 11:26 PM
D2 teams don't have an RPI, so though it counts on the record it doesn't count for the RPI.


lv2hoop

The St. Martin's game is listed as an exhibition so it wouldn't be an RPI counting game even if it was against a higher ranked opponent. That was my point, the win/loss VS St. Martins counts. THIS IS NOT AN EXIBITION GAME. Gonzaga has 31 regular season games scheduled and St. Martins is one of them.

I'm surprised nobody pointed this out. ( Keep in mind I'm talking about the overall record.)

If Gonzaga lost to St. Martins it would count.

LongIslandZagFan
10-07-2015, 03:54 AM
lv2hoop
That was my point, the win/loss VS St. Martins counts. THIS IS NOT AN EXIBITION GAME. Gonzaga has 31 regular season games scheduled and St. Martins is one of them.

I'm surprised nobody pointed this out. ( Keep in mind I'm talking about the overall record.)

If Gonzaga lost to St. Martins it would count.

NCAA wouldn't look at it either way... with the exception of a loss. D2 team... ultimately doesn't count.

Angelo Roncalli
10-07-2015, 07:44 AM
I would require the same or similar terms (2 and 1) of WSU to start a new series.

Nowhere else on GU's out of conference schedule do the Zags go on the road to play a sub 150 RPI team...and not receive any revenue for it...and have the game covered on the woeful Pac-10 network that many people (Direct TV users) cannot see. The Zags have to play enough sub-150 teams on the road in conference play, including and especially Jamie Z's darling, Pacific. Somebody will no doubt mention the St. Martin's game, Montana game, or other "guarantee" games GU plays OOC. Those are distinguishable and hugely different than playing WSU in Pullman. Those games are at HOME, not on the road. GU receives the TV revenue from Root (which is better than ESPN or Fox), receives the ticket revenue and the concession revenue.

Then there are the people involved. Go back to the early 2000's when GU tried very, very hard to set up a series with Oregon. Bill Moos and Ernie Kent would not do it.

thegloriousgoateeofKP
10-07-2015, 09:07 AM
I would require the same or similar terms (2 and 1) of WSU to start a new series.

Nowhere else on GU's out of conference schedule do the Zags go on the road to play a sub 150 RPI team...and not receive any revenue for it...and have the game covered on the woeful Pac-10 network that many people (Direct TV users) cannot see. The Zags have to play enough sub-150 teams on the road in conference play, including and especially Jamie Z's darling, Pacific. Somebody will no doubt mention the St. Martin's game, Montana game, or other "guarantee" games GU plays OOC. Those are distinguishable and hugely different than playing WSU in Pullman. Those games are at HOME, not on the road. GU receives the TV revenue from Root (which is better than ESPN or Fox), receives the ticket revenue and the concession revenue.

Then there are the people involved. Go back to the early 2000's when GU tried very, very hard to set up a series with Oregon. Bill Moos and Ernie Kent would not do it.

I was all set to say, "If we can play St. Martin and and other cupcakes, we can play WSU," but this is a compelling point.

Road games, especially against bad teams are extremely dangerous. The Committee doesn't seem to weight home/road properly.

DixieZag
10-07-2015, 09:22 AM
I would require the same or similar terms (2 and 1) of WSU to start a new series.

Nowhere else on GU's out of conference schedule do the Zags go on the road to play a sub 150 RPI team...and not receive any revenue for it...and have the game covered on the woeful Pac-10 network that many people (Direct TV users) cannot see. The Zags have to play enough sub-150 teams on the road in conference play, including and especially Jamie Z's darling, Pacific. Somebody will no doubt mention the St. Martin's game, Montana game, or other "guarantee" games GU plays OOC. Those are distinguishable and hugely different than playing WSU in Pullman. Those games are at HOME, not on the road. GU receives the TV revenue from Root (which is better than ESPN or Fox), receives the ticket revenue and the concession revenue.

Then there are the people involved. Go back to the early 2000's when GU tried very, very hard to set up a series with Oregon. Bill Moos and Ernie Kent would not do it.

Thx AR; Good info.

I still believe that the point I made re; was not at all long ago that they were extremely good and one of the all-time marque games at K2, I believe a guy named Klay Thompson and another named Castro (Fidel's son, I'm assuming) had a very good game as two unbeatens squared off - 2010?

I just think our memories are a little short here. I don't think there's any reason to assume that WSU is going to be a bottom feeder any more than UW was the last couple years.

Now, whether the fact that they are bottom feeder or not plays a role in the decision is another matter entirely.

hooter73
10-07-2015, 09:54 AM
Name perception/recognition has as much to do with it as anything (As inconsequential as it should be). UW has had more better teams in the national spot light for longer than WSU has.

DixieZag
10-07-2015, 10:25 AM
Name perception/recognition has as much to do with it as anything (As inconsequential as it should be). UW has had more better teams in the national spot light for longer than WSU has.

True

Zagdawg
10-07-2015, 10:35 AM
One program helps us to be more in the spotlight when recruiting the Seattle area.......the other helps us in recruiting ........wait for it...... in Pullman.

One program has qty 4 top 100 players coming in and should be on the upswing......the other program has the 60th ranked 6'7"center and the 110th ranked shooting guard along with 3 junior college transfers.

There are a good number of cougar alum in the Spokane area that like to go to the Zag games (as seen by the good number of cougar regalia in the crowd when we play them on our home floor).

Washington state did get to the dance in 2008/2007 --prior to that it was 1994--I don't see them dancing in the near future.

This would be a good game to continue at the Arena every year--it would allow more fans to see the Zags and the Cougars.

MDABE80
10-07-2015, 11:40 AM
"This would be a good game to continue at the Arena every year--it would allow more fans to see the Zags and the Cougars."
ANd this is correct. ALso it's why we need to keep this game. Basketball culture in E Wa is going great guns. This game is an event that'll conitnue to help that.

Zagdawg
10-07-2015, 01:31 PM
Play it in the arena every year and gives proceeds to the local children's hospital.

maynard g krebs
10-07-2015, 02:40 PM
Play it in the arena every year and gives proceeds to the local children's hospital.

I doubt that the Cougs would agree to that any more than GU agreed to UW's 3 games in Key Arena proposal. And they shouldn't; it's virtually the same thing.

Unless, of course, the deal was structured in a way that they couldn't afford to refuse financially, which giving the proceeds to charity wouldn't do. The cougs' ath dept is struggling financially.

Zagdawg
10-07-2015, 03:45 PM
So your saying the Zags are the Cougs "golden goose/payday" --only way they can get fans in the seats of Cougs arena in Pullman.

Well --if that is the case.....the Zags definitely need to keep going to Pullman to help the Cougs out--that is the neighborly thing to do.

kclubfounder
10-07-2015, 04:10 PM
Then there are the people involved. Go back to the early 2000's when GU tried very, very hard to set up a series with Oregon. Bill Moos and Ernie Kent would not do it.

Of all the comments on this thread defending the potential decision to drop the series, this is the one that moves me. Great point Angelo. It doesn't come close to sending me to the other side of the fence, but it certainly will help me control my anger. Screw the Ducks and everyone who has ever had anything to do with them! (with the possible exception of a couple family members) :D

kclubfounder
10-07-2015, 04:15 PM
"This would be a good game to continue at the Arena every year--it would allow more fans to see the Zags and the Cougars."
ANd this is correct. ALso it's why we need to keep this game. Basketball culture in E Wa is going great guns. This game is an event that'll conitnue to help that.

Just a thought, and probably a crazy one, but how about playing it in the Yakima Sun Dome every year? Throw the Central WA fans of both schools a bone.

seacatfan
10-07-2015, 04:27 PM
One program helps us to be more in the spotlight when recruiting the Seattle area.......the other helps us in recruiting ........wait for it...... in Pullman.


Yeah, the former series with UW really helped with recruiting the Seattle area, right? Oh wait, it didn't help at all. Never mind.

Zagdawg
10-07-2015, 04:51 PM
We might have benefited a bit from playing around the Seattle area----Dickau, Nilson, Gray, Bell, Spink, Knight, Calvary, Gourde, Frahm, Raivio, Downs are a few from the coast that might have paid attention to the Zags.

maynard g krebs
10-07-2015, 05:29 PM
We might have benefited a bit from playing around the Seattle area----Dickau, Nilson, Gray, Bell, Spink, Knight, Calvary, Gourde, Frahm, Raivio, Downs are a few from the coast that might have paid attention to the Zags.

At least 4 of those from Ptld area. DD, Frahm, Gourde, Raivio.

jazzdelmar
10-07-2015, 05:35 PM
Just a thought, and probably a crazy one, but how about playing it in the Yakima Sun Dome every year? Throw the Central WA fans of both schools a bone.

Bornie would luv that.

Zagdawg
10-07-2015, 05:51 PM
Pretty close to Oregon ---Vancouver/Battle Ground --but still Western Wash. --close enough to Seattle to make a difference.

But you are correct--if we add in all of the additional Portland area Zags--that is a bunch more players.

seacatfan
10-07-2015, 06:41 PM
We might have benefited a bit from playing around the Seattle area----Dickau, Nilson, Gray, Bell, Spink, Knight, Calvary, Gourde, Frahm, Raivio, Downs are a few from the coast that might have paid attention to the Zags.

When you remove the kids from Vancouver (they get their media/sports coverage out of Portland, definitely not UW-centric) and the transfers (I believe in general they use quite different criteria in selecting a school than high school recruits do) your list shrinks significantly. I don't know where Nilson or Spink were from, but I bet both were very lightly recruited. Calvary and Gray are Puget Sound area, but definitely not Seattle, and I think both of them weren't very heavily recruited either. I think out of your whole list, the only guy that committed to GU out of high school, that was fairly highly regarded and had lots of other schools recruiting him, and was from anywhere remotely close to UW is Bell. I'm gonna go ahead and stick with the notion that GU doesn't recruit well from the Seattle area and playing UW doesn't help.

Zagdawg
10-07-2015, 06:59 PM
I'll say westside of Washington regardless of right out of high school or transfer and say we do ok with recruits from the area--definitely room for improvement--but not skunked as some newer Zag ball fans think.

We play in Portland yearly against the Pilots and that pays dividends in the Portland area also-- yes also westside.

;)

Go Zags

DixieZag
10-07-2015, 07:18 PM
I was not from WA when I landed in Rebmann Hall. But, the friend that I first met there, who to this day is my best friend, grew up in Pullman and said it thusly:

"If you drive west on I-90, you eventually get to the top of a mountain, the second your car starts downward you are in Seattle until you hit the ocean, Canada, or the southern city limits of Olympia."

seacatfan
10-07-2015, 08:48 PM
I was not from WA when I landed in Rebmann Hall. But, the friend that I first met there, who to this day is my best friend, grew up in Pullman and said it thusly:

"If you drive west on I-90, you eventually get to the top of a mountain, the second your car starts downward you are in Seattle until you hit the ocean, Canada, or the southern city limits of Olympia."

I don't think I'd take geography lessons from a guy from Pullman.

maynard g krebs
10-07-2015, 10:52 PM
Calvary and Gray are Puget Sound area, but definitely not Seattle, and I think both of them weren't very heavily recruited either.

Gray was a top 100 player, 60ish I think, and moved to Bainbridge his sr year and played in the Metro.

Zagger
10-08-2015, 03:26 AM
If the GU/Wazzu series ends I'd sure like to see it morph into another series of sorts where GU plays them once every 2-3 years. Spokane fans of UW, EWU, WSU and GU would surely go for a Washington (the state) series in the Spokane Arena - where the Zags play one of the other 3 on a rotation. Screw the RPI stuff. Giving college basketball fans a treat/reward for supporting college BB is just plain the right thing to do and yields a host of both seen & unforeseen benefits to the schools AND the community.

Coach Crazy
10-08-2015, 03:57 AM
Screw the RPI stuff. Giving college basketball fans a treat/reward for supporting college BB is just plain the right thing to do and yields a host of both seen & unforeseen benefits to the schools AND the community.

This is radically idealistic. It doesn't represent what is best for the program in the short term, and possibly the long-term. What are you (and everyone else in your camp) going to do when GU continues to progress? Your "Truman Show" version of college basketball doesn't exist for a program like Gonzaga.

There is going to come a point in time when Gonzaga reaches a level where some of will not be able to hang on to the yester-years, except in distant memory. It's best to fight the tendency to yell "Got off my lawn" to that which is ahead of us.

229SintoZag
10-08-2015, 07:08 AM
I would require the same or similar terms (2 and 1) of WSU to start a new series.

Nowhere else on GU's out of conference schedule do the Zags go on the road to play a sub 150 RPI team...and not receive any revenue for it...and have the game covered on the woeful Pac-10 network that many people (Direct TV users) cannot see. The Zags have to play enough sub-150 teams on the road in conference play, including and especially Jamie Z's darling, Pacific. Somebody will no doubt mention the St. Martin's game, Montana game, or other "guarantee" games GU plays OOC. Those are distinguishable and hugely different than playing WSU in Pullman. Those games are at HOME, not on the road. GU receives the TV revenue from Root (which is better than ESPN or Fox), receives the ticket revenue and the concession revenue.

Then there are the people involved. Go back to the early 2000's when GU tried very, very hard to set up a series with Oregon. Bill Moos and Ernie Kent would not do it.

Rarely does this happen, but I have to disagree with the good Pontiff here.

To equate WSU to the sub-150 teams in terms of RPI impact is simply wrong as a matter of math. Playing a RPI 150 team from the Pac-12 is way better for our RPI than playing an RPI team from a lesser conference. Regardless of WSU's RPI, Gonzaga will get the benefit of WSU's opponents records in 25% of the formula, which will almost invariably mean that playing them is better, and by a wide margin, than playing a similalr RPI team from a lesser conference, simply because as members of the Pac-12 WSU's opponents will collectively have a superior record as a group than schools with similar RPIs to WSU from lesser conferences . As a general proposition, playing Power 5 conference schools is a superior approach to RPI and record building than not. To look only at the RPI of an opponent misses this nuance.

Second, the fact that Kent and Moos refused to schedule us before is regrettable but it is also water under the bridge. If one of the reasons for us backing out now is personal, it suggests that GU is petty, spiteful, and the type of program that lets personal grudges displace the best interests of the program and fans. I would hope that we are better than that, and that we'd take out whatever ill-will we have toward these individuals for past slights on the court by beating them senseless, rather than off the court by spiting them and taking away one of their premier games.

I am particularly adamant on this point because of the fact that we are apparently re-engaging with Romar and the folks at UW who directly spited us and quit playing us for the better part of a decade after we beat them 9 out of 10. If a past history of refusing to schedule us disqualifies a potential opponent, then the UW series (which involves the same coach and same school that stiff-armed us) should not even be considered as an opponent.

Finally, I am of the opinion that we should play both Pac 12 Washington schools annually, if for no other reason to establish, time and again, that we are the premier program in Washington state. The best way to do this is to keep beating the others. If we do this and continue to do it for years to come, we will only improve as a program and will cement our position as the top dog in Washington in the process, which can only help in recruiting, etc. Bowing out of traditional OOC opponents smacks of arrogance and it is beneath the dignity of Gonzaga to do it. For this reason I am not in favor of canceling the WSU series.

I am, however, in favor of using our well-earned leverage here to get favorable terms, i.e., 2 for 1 or something similar, whereby we do not have a straight up home and home with WSU. I have no problem with that, and if WSU balks at that, and the series ends because of their wounded egos, so be it.

seacatfan
10-08-2015, 07:19 AM
Gray was a top 100 player, 60ish I think, and moved to Bainbridge his sr year and played in the Metro.

OK, Gray was higher rated than I remember. Still I don't remember him getting any attention at all from Pac 12 teams. He played most of his career at a tiny school (1A or 2A) on the Kitsap Peninsula. Yes he played against some of the big time schools in Seattle his Sr. year.

GoZags
10-08-2015, 07:20 AM
I am not in favor of canceling the WSU series.

I am, however, in favor of using our well-earned leverage here to get favorable terms, i.e., 2 for 1 or something similar, whereby we do not have a straight up home and home with WSU. I have no problem with that, and if WSU balks at that, and the series ends because of their wounded egos, so be it.

I'll add a "me too" here ... and agree that this is my position as well.

soccerdud
10-08-2015, 11:20 AM
Rarely does this happen, but I have to disagree with the good Pontiff here.

To equate WSU to the sub-150 teams in terms of RPI impact is simply wrong as a matter of math. Playing a RPI 150 team from the Pac-12 is way better for our RPI than playing an RPI team from a lesser conference. Regardless of WSU's RPI, Gonzaga will get the benefit of WSU's opponents records in 25% of the formula, which will almost invariably mean that playing them is better, and by a wide margin, than playing a similalr RPI team from a lesser conference, simply because as members of the Pac-12 WSU's opponents will collectively have a superior record as a group than schools with similar RPIs to WSU from lesser conferences . As a general proposition, playing Power 5 conference schools is a superior approach to RPI and record building than not. To look only at the RPI of an opponent misses this nuance.


no. THIS is simply wrong. the clear way to game RPI is to play the winning teams from bad conferences (see MWC's strategy over the last decade). similarly, the worst thing for one's own RPI is to play losers, regardless of conference (or RPI).

look at it this way: rpi = .25 own win % + .50 opponents win % + .25 opponent's opponents win %.

so, clearly, programs in strong conferences benefit in their own RPI from the strength (win %) of their conference. similarly, programs in weak conferences take a hit. since that's 50% of their own RPI, in almost all cases a team in a weak conference has to have a significantly better record to achieve the same RPI as a team in a strong conference. as a comparison point 22-11 FGCU and 23-12 St. Francis Brooklyn finished the year in the same 5-team RPI block as 13-18 WSU.

now, if you're talking about how these factors help or hurt the zags' RPI, you have a WSU-type being carried by their opponent's win % (50% of their own RPI) becoming 25% of our RPI equation -- halving the efficacy. on the other hand, you have an FCGU whose (almost identical) RPI is carried by their own excellent win % (25% of their own RPI) becoming 50% of our RPI equation -- doubling the efficacy.

yes, it's slightly nicer if the teams we play have played a tough schedule, all other things being equal. but when we are comparing WSU to non-power teams with a similar RPI, all other things are NOT equal. if you want to maximize your own RPI, the expected record (winning %) of your opponents is by far and away the greatest factor and should never be sacrificed in order to play teams who schedule harder. moreover, within a narrow band of expected RPI, in almost all cases the team from the worse conference will have the better record (often MUCH better).

i do NOT feel like RPI should be the most important consideration in scheduling. but this bit of your post was just so factually wrong that it needed a response.

also, please never try to explain math again.

edit: on the larger question, i hope the WSU game stays-- but not at the expense of maximizing GU's ability to capitalize on (and sustain) our recent success. yes, this run is unlikely to continue forever... but i'd rather see us squeeze every last drop out of it while we can, as opposed to playing to make sure we still have a low-level PAC-12 team coming to K2 after it fades.

seacatfan
10-08-2015, 12:10 PM
Per soccerdud's explanation for gaming the RPI system above, the real trick is in being able to predict which mid majors will have good records from year to year. Someone like Wichita St. is a solid bet, but most of the smaller conferences it varies widely from year to year or over several years which teams are good. And since a significant portion of the schedule is made out several years in advance, it's just about impossible to get it right all the time. Many times a scheduled opponent that was supposed to be good at the time it was booked is mediocre or just plain bad by the time you end up playing them.

VaBeachZAG
10-08-2015, 12:52 PM
i do NOT feel like RPI should be the most important consideration in scheduling. but your post was just so factually wrong that it needed a response.


edit: on the larger question, i hope the WSU game stays-- but not at the expense of maximizing GU's ability to capitalize on (and sustain) our recent success. yes, this run is unlikely to continue forever... but i'd rather see us squeeze every last drop out of it while we can, as opposed to playing to make sure we still have a low-level PAC-12 team coming to K2 after it fades.

I guess it's fine to engage in all this RPI babble, but I am still not convinced an away game every other year in Pullman hinders the Zags' ability to capitalize on its recent success. If maximum RPI numbers is what we are looking for, then why the heck schedule any mediocre teams at all. In order to maximize our success, shouldn't every game (and I do mean every game) scheduled be with an opponent with the best RPI possible? We all know that isn't done, right? So please, enough of the RPI excuses for dumping WSU. As an aside, this whole debate makes me think that maybe we should ease up on the often referenced phrase that Zagsville is a special place with special people since (at least with respect to the athletic department) we seem to be moving in a very non-special direction.

soccerdud
10-08-2015, 01:00 PM
I guess it's fine to engage in all this RPI babble, but I am still not convinced an away game every other year in Pullman hinders the Zags' ability to capitalize on its recent success.

nor am i. that's why i wasn't involved in this conversation previously and was so vague and generic in the bit of the post that you quoted. i don't know what the right thing to do is. i see the argument for dropping them (or at least insisting on a more favorable situation), but i am far from convinced that we'll be better off for it. but if someone makes that argument persuasively, count me in. in the meantime, i just don't want to let clearly factually invalid explanations propagate.

people doing the "well, actually..." thing with math or other technical details need to be either correct, or be called out-- loudly and immediately.

Zagdawg
10-08-2015, 01:44 PM
The fans that have a hard time understanding the "rpi" impact on seeding and the dance will disregard the facts provided. They will state that we need to play "WSU", Eastern, Idaho etc and we can
help everyone in the area get to see their local college.
In reality-- due to conference affiliation we need to make sure a
significant number of our games involve teams that are not located within 150 miles of Spokane. If we want to maintain the current path we are on then we need to ensure that we are taking the appropriate steps. It may hurt some feelings along the way, but those fans are only looking out for their own interests over the good of the university as a whole. These are the same fans that were whining about the quality of the recent opponents at the battle in seattle.
The window for scheduling games has been significantly reduced with the addition of Pacific to the conference and the adjustments that have been made to the "WCC" regular season start.
Zag administration will do what needs to be done to ensure the program maintains the best opportunity for success-- nothing wrong with that.

Keep "WSU" around for a yearly arena game so more fans can see both teams- just make it one of the earlier preseason games.

The fans that think Gonzaga being a special place is specifically related to scheduling have no idea what the phrase actually means.

Go Zags

burgesszag
10-08-2015, 02:00 PM
I don't think I'd take geography lessons from a guy from Pullman.

You got that right..Those Palouse Hayseeds to be replaced in the PAC12 by the Zags where Coach Few could win 89% of his conference games like he does in the WCC

GoZags
10-08-2015, 02:08 PM
You got that right..Those Palouse Hayseeds to be replaced in the PAC12 by the Zags where Coach Few could win 89% of his conference games like he does in the WCC

Your handle "Burgesszag" is one of the most misleading monikers on the web. Sure, you used to attend some Gonzaga games back in the day, but if one said you were 98 percent Coug and 2 percent Zag they'd be selling WSU a little short. It'd be nice if you just used your cougfan.com handle here.

burgesszag
10-08-2015, 04:20 PM
Your handle "Burgesszag" is one of the most misleading monikers on the web. Sure, you used to attend some Gonzaga games back in the day, but if one said you were 98 percent Coug and 2 percent Zag they'd be selling WSU a little short. It'd be nice if you just used your cougfan.com handle here.

I loved and rooted for the ZAGS long before you were born..I loved to watch Burgess, Jean Claude, Billy "the shooter" Suter, Leachman and Stockton and many many more...I used to visit Bing Crosby at Hayden Lake when my grandmother was his cook..I was amazed at the way Fitz would defeat teams like the Dons who had far superior talent..He was a great coach and a good man...I was a Zag and I attended a whole lot more than "some" games at the old Spokane Coliseum...After Monson left, the new generation of Zags jumped on the band wagon
many of whom have never set foot on the campus on Boone Avenue...I played for Bobo Brayton at WSU and observed great coaches like Jud Heathcote and Marv Harshman who never came close to winning 89% of their games...They were usually the under dogs and considered
it great if their odds were 50/50 to get a win...This nuevo generation of Zags have no idea what it is like to root year after year for teams at WSU, Idaho, Eastern, Portland, etc...I stayed off this board for a long time until the discussion about WSU being worthy of being on the ZAGs schedule...The entitlement and arrogance is difficult to swallow...Hall of fame coaches like Harshman, Heathcote and Brayton used to
drive state vans and cars to Spokane in the Middle of winter to play the Zags and then drive back home after the game in the middle of the night...How times have changed when coaches like Don Monson at Idaho, Red Reese at Eastern and Marv Harshman at WSU would not be considered worthy enough to play home and home with Gonzaga..

GoZags
10-08-2015, 04:32 PM
I loved and rooted for the ZAGS long before you were born..I loved to watch Burgess, Jean Claude, Billy "the shooter" Suter, Leachman and Stockton and many many more...I used to visit Bing Crosby at Hayden Lake when my grandmother was his cook..I was amazed at the way Fitz would defeat teams like the Dons who had far superior talent..He was a great coach and a good man...I was a Zag and I attended a whole lot more than "some" games at the old Spokane Coliseum...After Monson left, the new generation of Zags jumped on the band wagon
many of whom have never set foot on the campus on Boone Avenue...I played for Bobo Brayton at WSU and observed great coaches like Jud Heathcote and Marv Harshman who never came close to winning 89% of their games...They were usually the under dogs and considered
it great if their odds were 50/50 to get a win...This nuevo generation of Zags have no idea what it is like to root year after year for teams at WSU, Idaho, Eastern, Portland, etc...I stayed off this board for a long time until the discussion about WSU being worthy of being on the ZAGs schedule...The entitlement and arrogance is difficult to swallow...Hall of fame coaches like Harshman, Heathcote and Brayton used to
drive state vans and cars to Spokane in the Middle of winter to play the Zags and then drive back home after the game in the middle of the night...How times have changed when coaches like Don Monson at Idaho, Red Reese at Eastern and Marv Harshman at WSU would not be considered worthy enough to play home and home with Gonzaga..

And I am sure you were distressed when your guy (Kelvin) deemed "cough -- 'your' -- cough 'Zags' " unworthy. I'll stick with the 98/2 split vis a vis your allegience ...

Also ... correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think anything has been done as of yet regarding the series. I believe at this point it's "speculation" ...

VaBeachZAG
10-08-2015, 04:44 PM
The entitlement and arrogance is difficult to swallow...Hall of fame coaches like Harshman, Heathcote and Brayton used to drive state vans and cars to Spokane in the Middle of winter to play the Zags and then drive back home after the game in the middle of the night...How times have changed when coaches like Don Monson at Idaho, Red Reese at Eastern and Marv Harshman at WSU would not be considered worthy enough to play home and home with Gonzaga..

Love it...just love it!

Zagger
10-08-2015, 05:59 PM
Idealism ..... there needs to be more of it in everything we do. Makes everything more worthwhile. Dreaming on here .... if a team wins all of its games - doesn't matter what the team's RPI is, nor what the RPIs were of its opponents. I can't wait to see the team in action this Saturday. I'm hoping to see what'll make me buy into the Zags taking the whole enchilada this season. Go Zags! :-)

kclubfounder
10-08-2015, 06:36 PM
At the risk of starting a whole new thread of arguments I think it should be noted that for YEARS the committee has INSISTED that RPI means very, very little. It may help a teeny bit in deciding seeds, but that's it. And it means VERY LITTLE in terms of deciding seeds. It means NOTHING in terms of deciding who gets in. At least, that's what has been conveyed by committee heads and committee members for years and years.

229SintoZag
10-09-2015, 06:32 AM
no. THIS is simply wrong. the clear way to game RPI is to play the winning teams from bad conferences (see MWC's strategy over the last decade). similarly, the worst thing for one's own RPI is to play losers, regardless of conference (or RPI).

look at it this way: rpi = .25 own win % + .50 opponents win % + .25 opponent's opponents win %.

so, clearly, programs in strong conferences benefit in their own RPI from the strength (win %) of their conference. similarly, programs in weak conferences take a hit. since that's 50% of their own RPI, in almost all cases a team in a weak conference has to have a significantly better record to achieve the same RPI as a team in a strong conference. as a comparison point 22-11 FGCU and 23-12 St. Francis Brooklyn finished the year in the same 5-team RPI block as 13-18 WSU.

now, if you're talking about how these factors help or hurt the zags' RPI, you have a WSU-type being carried by their opponent's win % (50% of their own RPI) becoming 25% of our RPI equation -- halving the efficacy. on the other hand, you have an FCGU whose (almost identical) RPI is carried by their own excellent win % (25% of their own RPI) becoming 50% of our RPI equation -- doubling the efficacy.

yes, it's slightly nicer if the teams we play have played a tough schedule, all other things being equal. but when we are comparing WSU to non-power teams with a similar RPI, all other things are NOT equal. if you want to maximize your own RPI, the expected record (winning %) of your opponents is by far and away the greatest factor and should never be sacrificed in order to play teams who schedule harder. moreover, within a narrow band of expected RPI, in almost all cases the team from the worse conference will have the better record (often MUCH better).

i do NOT feel like RPI should be the most important consideration in scheduling. but this bit of your post was just so factually wrong that it needed a response.

also, please never try to explain math again.

edit: on the larger question, i hope the WSU game stays-- but not at the expense of maximizing GU's ability to capitalize on (and sustain) our recent success. yes, this run is unlikely to continue forever... but i'd rather see us squeeze every last drop out of it while we can, as opposed to playing to make sure we still have a low-level PAC-12 team coming to K2 after it fades.


no. THIS is simply wrong. the clear way to game RPI is to play the winning teams from bad conferences (see MWC's strategy over the last decade). similarly, the worst thing for one's own RPI is to play losers, regardless of conference (or RPI).

look at it this way: rpi = .25 own win % + .50 opponents win % + .25 opponent's opponents win %.

so, clearly, programs in strong conferences benefit in their own RPI from the strength (win %) of their conference. similarly, programs in weak conferences take a hit. since that's 50% of their own RPI, in almost all cases a team in a weak conference has to have a significantly better record to achieve the same RPI as a team in a strong conference. as a comparison point 22-11 FGCU and 23-12 St. Francis Brooklyn finished the year in the same 5-team RPI block as 13-18 WSU.

now, if you're talking about how these factors help or hurt the zags' RPI, you have a WSU-type being carried by their opponent's win % (50% of their own RPI) becoming 25% of our RPI equation -- halving the efficacy. on the other hand, you have an FCGU whose (almost identical) RPI is carried by their own excellent win % (25% of their own RPI) becoming 50% of our RPI equation -- doubling the efficacy.

yes, it's slightly nicer if the teams we play have played a tough schedule, all other things being equal. but when we are comparing WSU to non-power teams with a similar RPI, all other things are NOT equal. if you want to maximize your own RPI, the expected record (winning %) of your opponents is by far and away the greatest factor and should never be sacrificed in order to play teams who schedule harder. moreover, within a narrow band of expected RPI, in almost all cases the team from the worse conference will have the better record (often MUCH better).

i do NOT feel like RPI should be the most important consideration in scheduling. but this bit of your post was just so factually wrong that it needed a response.

also, please never try to explain math again.

edit: on the larger question, i hope the WSU game stays-- but not at the expense of maximizing GU's ability to capitalize on (and sustain) our recent success. yes, this run is unlikely to continue forever... but i'd rather see us squeeze every last drop out of it while we can, as opposed to playing to make sure we still have a low-level PAC-12 team coming to K2 after it fades.

Look chief I hate to break it to you but you're not following me here. Since you're the math wizard tell me this: if GU has a crystal ball and can choose to play the Cougs who will end up with a .500 Division I record and a middling RPI, or a team from a lesser conference that will finish with an identical record but plays in, say, the MVC or Horizon League-- which team should GU play?

What's the matter? Cat got your tongue?

I will stipulate that playing a 28-2 MVC champion is better than playing a .500 middling PAC-12 team. But that's not what I was talking about in my scenario. And that hypothetical is irrelevant to this thread, which is about the Cougs and our scheduling options if we drop them. So far as I'm aware we have no prospective MVC or Horizon champs on the table as options to choose should we drop WSU.

I'm not sure the problem here is a lack of math skill on my end so much as it may be a reading comprehension deficit on yours.

LongIslandZagFan
10-09-2015, 06:45 AM
Why can't we all just.... get along?

http://cdn.makeagif.com/save/zEMBgw

Coach Crazy
10-09-2015, 08:00 AM
Idealism ..... there needs to be more of it in everything we do. Makes everything more worthwhile. Dreaming on here .... if a team wins all of its games - doesn't matter what the team's RPI is, nor what the RPIs were of its opponents. I can't wait to see the team in action this Saturday. I'm hoping to see what'll make me buy into the Zags taking the whole enchilada this season. Go Zags! :-)

Not to the extent that is being done here. You can't have what we do now, with the mentality that is bantered about on this board. Sorry. Doesn't work that way. Not every wide-eye'd, upstanding, blue collar, Davey Pendo look-a-like, Washingtonian gets a schollie to GU. As great as those stories are for some. And moving forward those types won't be good enough to play at GU. There are such things as scores, there are such things as ratings, there are such things as expectations. This game IS partly a business.

Plus, we're talking about something separate from the morally or ethically ideal. Which is where I would actually agree with the idea that the ideal needs to exist. Otherwise, this cumbayah, everyone gets a trophy crowd are gonna need to find a newer, less successful team to follow.

Maybe, we should just stop playing in the NCAA's and find a club league where every kid that dreams of playing at GU gets to where a jersey for a quarter or two?

As well, the practice of idealism doesn't guarantee that one is in possession of the ideal, just that they suppose they do. The pro-WSU crowd on this thread is trying to pass copious amounts of subjectivity off as an immovable, objective position.

Goodbye, Wazzu.

ProjectMKUltra5
10-09-2015, 08:48 AM
Not to the extent that is being done here. You can't have what we do now, with the mentality that is bantered about on this board. Sorry. Doesn't work that way. Not every wide-eye'd, upstanding, blue collar, Davey Pendo look-a-like, Washingtonian gets a schollie to GU. As great as those stories are for some. And moving forward those types won't be good enough to play at GU. There are such things as scores, there are such things as ratings, there are such things as expectations. This game IS partly a business.

Plus, we're talking about something separate from the morally or ethically ideal. Which is where I would actually agree with the idea that the ideal needs to exist. Otherwise, this cumbayah, everyone gets a trophy crowd are gonna need to find a newer, less successful team to follow.

Maybe, we should just stop playing in the NCAA's and find a club league where every kid that dreams of playing at GU gets to where a jersey for a quarter or two?

As well, the practice of idealism doesn't guarantee that one is in possession of the ideal, just that they suppose they do. The pro-WSU crowd on this thread is trying to pass copious amounts of subjectivity off as an immovable, objective position.

Goodbye, Wazzu.

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Denzel-Washington-Boom-Gif.gif

soccerdud
10-09-2015, 08:53 AM
Look chief I hate to break it to you but you're not following me here. Since you're the math wizard tell me this: if GU has a crystal ball and can choose to play the Cougs who will end up with a .500 Division I record and a middling RPI, or a team from a lesser conference that will finish with an identical record but plays in, say, the MVC or Horizon League-- which team should GU play?

What's the matter? Cat got your tongue?

I will stipulate that playing a 28-2 MVC champion is better than playing a .500 middling PAC-12 team. But that's not what I was talking about in my scenario. And that hypothetical is irrelevant to this thread, which is about the Cougs and our scheduling options if we drop them. So far as I'm aware we have no prospective MVC or Horizon champs on the table as options to choose should we drop WSU.

I'm not sure the problem here is a lack of math skill on my end so much as it may be a reading comprehension deficit on yours.

re-read the bit of your original post that i quoted. or here, ill quote it again:


Playing a RPI 150 team from the Pac-12 is way better for our RPI than playing an RPI team from a lesser conference. Regardless of WSU's RPI, Gonzaga will get the benefit of WSU's opponents records in 25% of the formula, which will almost invariably mean that playing them is better, and by a wide margin, than playing a similalr RPI team from a lesser conference, simply because as members of the Pac-12 WSU's opponents will collectively have a superior record as a group than schools with similar RPIs to WSU from lesser conferences (several sics yours, bold mine)

yes, i got snarky with you. you are welcome to get snarky with me, i can handle it. but it really seems like you are the one who is not comprehending your own words.

in the original post you were explicitly comparing WSU to non-power teams with the same RPI. that is what your words said, so that was what i addressed. i showed why a non-power team with the same RPI would almost always have a superior record, and why it was preferable to play that team instead.

sure, if you change the scenario to identical records (which you mentioned 0 times in your original post, as opposed to RPIs... mentioned twice in the 2 sentences i quoted), then the weaker conference team would almost always have a significantly lower RPI and be worse for our RPI to play. yes.

maybe that's what you meant the whole time. if that's the case you probably should have written your post that way... because my response was and continues to be appropriate, reasonable, and correct with respect to the original post it was in response to. and, regardless of what you meant, what was said in that post was wrong, wrong, wrong. (again, feel free to re-read it above for reference)

lastly, hypotheticals are uninteresting to me. i was only addressing the technical details of your claim as stated by you, using the scenario/framework YOU proposed; not my own. the fact that there is no specific team that is on our radar (though i gave two real-world examples, so i could include numbers), is irrelevant. my post was intended to be neutral on the question of WSU-- but correct on the RPI technicals.

edit: "why do you care?", you may ask. well, because some, not knowing better, would likely have believed what you wrote. and we do NOT need a GUBoards anti-vaxxer type movement on the subject of RPI.

Bing
10-09-2015, 09:30 AM
re-read the bit of your original post that i quoted. or here, ill quote it again:

(several sics yours, bold mine)

yes, i got snarky with you. you are welcome to get snarky with me, i can handle it. but it really seems like you are the one who is not comprehending your own words.

in the original post you were explicitly comparing WSU to non-power teams with the same RPI. that is what your words said, so that was what i addressed. i showed why a non-power team with the same RPI would almost always have a superior record, and why it was preferable to play that team instead.

sure, if you change the scenario to identical records (which you mentioned 0 times in your original post, as opposed to RPIs... mentioned twice in the 2 sentences i quoted), then the weaker conference team would almost always have a significantly lower RPI and be worse for our RPI to play. yes.

maybe that's what you meant the whole time. if that's the case you probably should have written your post that way... because my response was and continues to be appropriate, reasonable, and correct with respect to the original post it was in response to. and, regardless of what you meant, what was said in that post was wrong, wrong, wrong. (again, feel free to re-read it above for reference)

lastly, hypotheticals are uninteresting to me. i was only addressing the technical details of your claim as stated by you, using the scenario/hypotheticals/framework YOU proposed; not my own. the fact that there is no specific team that is on our radar (though i gave two real-world examples, so i could include numbers), is irrelevant. the quoted statements, as written, really needed to not be allowed to stand due to their misleading (wrong) nature.

Judge Wapner goes with 229Sinto on this one.

soccerdud
10-09-2015, 10:20 AM
Judge Wapner goes with 229Sinto on this one.

must be off his meds again...

maynard g krebs
10-09-2015, 11:12 AM
Judge Wapner goes with 229Sinto on this one.

Well, that would make Judge Wapner incorrect in his decision, and incompetent as a judge. Soccerdud addressed everything said by Sinto clearly, on point, and correctly.

Sinto was wrong, and the correction was needed. I'd have done it myself if I'd seen it first, but not as clearly nor as well. Nice job soccerdud, (except maybe for the "never explain math again" comment).

Zagdawg
10-09-2015, 11:38 AM
Wapner is 95 years old and not what he used to be--so we will give him a break for getting this verdict incorrect....... Judge Judy says Soccerdud is correct.

Gotta agree with Soccerdud....he has a good grasp on the process to get a team in the dance and seeded correctly (and its not by scheduling home and homes against the bottom dwellers of larger conferences). The Zags have moved on to scheduling home and homes against some of the better teams in the Pac12 and this is a good thing.

If it is all about giving the local Cougs a hug to make them feel better about themselves---hug away......but don't drag down our teams resume to make a couple of Coug fans feel better about themselves.

Go Zags

soccerdud
10-09-2015, 12:49 PM
Well, that would make Judge Wapner incorrect in his decision, and incompetent as a judge. Soccerdud addressed everything said by Sinto clearly, on point, and correctly.

Sinto was wrong, and the correction was needed. I'd have done it myself if I'd seen it first, but not as clearly nor as well. Nice job soccerdud, (except maybe for the "never explain math again" comment).

thanks, maynard/zagdawg

@zagdawg, but, please understand i was only talking about the mechanics of how to maximize RPI-- not whether doing so helped materially with seeding or whether it is fundamentally a good thing for GU to continue to play WSU. think of me as a neutral third party calling BS on one particular argument because i don't want to see one person's misunderstanding (or, charitably, mis-characterization) be picked up by more people. or, you know, the return of polio.

@mgk, you're right about that unnecessary comment. talking about the "nuances" of "simple math" in an incorrect technical explanation really set me off. it's a common character flaw in engineers. moreover, most people who commit those sins are repeat offenders.

@sinto, that bit was uncalled for and i apologize. if you try to do better next time, i will too... and everyone will win.

edit: and with that, i will stop de-railing this thread, crawl back into my hole, and allow you all to continue discussing GU vs. WSU past, present, and (maybe) future.

229SintoZag
10-09-2015, 01:56 PM
thanks, maynard/zagdawg

@zagdawg, but, please understand i was only talking about the mechanics of how to maximize RPI-- not whether doing so helped materially with seeding or whether it is fundamentally a good thing for GU to continue to play WSU. think of me as a neutral third party calling BS on one particular argument because i don't want to see one person's misunderstanding (or, charitably, mis-characterization) be picked up by more people. or, you know, the return of polio.

@mgk, you're right about that unnecessary comment. talking about the "nuances" of "simple math" in an incorrect technical explanation really set me off. it's a common character flaw in engineers. moreover, most people who commit those sins are repeat offenders.

@sinto, that bit was uncalled for and i apologize. if you try to do better next time, i will too... and everyone will win.

edit: and with that, i will stop de-railing this thread, crawl back into my hole, and allow you all to continue discussing GU vs. WSU past, present, and (maybe) future.

Good point about my original post. For some reasons there are omitted words in that post;I did intend for the original post to indicate I was assuming similar records, not just similar RPIs, in the alternatives. I agree my post did not actually say this, even though I had intended that it do so. Fair enough.

With this clarification, I hope we can all reach a detente here. The bottom line is that as a general proposition, it is better to schedule power conference teams than not. This is a generality, but the fact that power conference teams will collectively have a superior overall record come march to non power conferences means that the last aspect of the RPI formula favors them as desirable opponents.

Of course this bias can be overcome if the teams you play from lesser conferences have a large enough win percentage to compensate for the impact of their playing in a lesser conference, another point I don't dispute and a point I am not sure anyone here has disputed.

I am well aware of what the likes of Creighton and others have done in the recent past in making sure they play few or no sub-RPI teams and in choosing just the right opponents to "game" the RPI system. But this whole discussion started with a discussion of whether or not it was a good idea to drop WSU. My point is that even assuming WSU ends up with a mediocre record come March, playing them is an approach that beats playing a team with an exepcted similar record from the Horizon, Big West or Big Sky. This is one of many valid reasons to continue to schedule WSU. No math or calculus wil change that.

Coug Tracks
10-09-2015, 05:30 PM
I would require the same or similar terms (2 and 1) of WSU to start a new series.

...

Then there are the people involved. Go back to the early 2000's when GU tried very, very hard to set up a series with Oregon. Bill Moos and Ernie Kent would not do it.There's a lot of history discussion in the thread including Sampson who I believe wanted something similar to what you are proposing. There was about a 10-12 year span in the 70s & 80s where the series was played at the "neutral" site of the Spokane Arena (or was it the Coliseum?) on an annual basis. While the commonly accepted GU belief is Sampson straight up canceled the series he actually wanted to stop playing in Spokane every year and asked to play it in Pullman and GU refused. No doubt Sampson was afraid of GU because they were becoming a competitive program but the series ending is being taking out of context a bit. Sampson wanted closer to what you are proposing GU should do with the series.

On to your final point on the history involved with Moos and Kent @ Oregon. Maybe it's fair but to give so much more weight to those above Harshman, Raveling, Dick and Tony Bennett (the ADs during those times), and the minor sports where WSU and GU schedule each other (Baseball, Volleyball, W. Soccer, etc.) actually seems unfair and short sighted. At the end of the day I don't want to lose the game because it does make good business sense from a WSU perspective. Long-term I would argue institutionally WSU needs GU a lot less than the other way around but whether that is true or false it's trumped by the regional argument for me personally. Something Dick Bennett spoke to given his days in Wisconsin and I wish WSU would follow in all sports.

I do see GUs perspective at this point though. They were able to get the UW back on the schedule and ultimately that's who they want to position their program against. I also think Moos/Ernie play into the decision a bit just from a connecting the dots perspective. If it goes away so be it but a lot of WSU have supported this game going back to well before Sampson and did not want an interuption. Anyway, just one perspective from a Coug.

sittingon50
10-09-2015, 05:53 PM
Very good post, Tracks. I would disagree on a couple of points, but very well stated, nevertheless.

ZagsGoZags
10-10-2015, 05:48 AM
I am one of thousands of zag fans who are not connected, and cannot afford bulldog club then season tickets.
IF the zags don't play in the Arena every year so we can see the boys play in person once a year (not counting kraziness) ,
THEN I hope we will keep playing WSU, because that's a game I can drive down and see