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VinnyZag
08-04-2015, 11:35 AM
WCC joins the other western leagues (Pac-12, MWC, WAC, Big West) in an officiating alliance. One entity will manage and train officials from all the leagues, if I understand it correctly:

http://www.wccsports.com/news/wcc-joins-men-s-basketball-officiating-alliance-08-04-2015

sittingon50
08-04-2015, 11:48 AM
Welcome to K2, new guys!

ProjectMKUltra5
08-04-2015, 11:48 AM
Dibler and staff will host a training clinic for all roster officials to review mechanics, game situations, rules knowledge and other key factors to ensure they are among the best trained in the country. Officials from all five of the conferences will participate, furthering the impact of the collaboration on officiating in the western United States.

So the WCC refs are finally going to get some training. Cool stuff

seacatfan
08-04-2015, 12:11 PM
Don't get too excited, Pac 12 refs have sucked for years.

DixieZag
08-04-2015, 12:30 PM
Makes sense.

No reason to have 4-5 different administrative offices for the same position.

Hopefully it will result in a little more consistent reffing? Good/Bad/whatever, but at least consistent.

hondo
08-04-2015, 12:57 PM
So the WCC refs are finally going to get some training. Cool stuff

Are the text books all in braille?

TheZagPhish
08-04-2015, 01:05 PM
Are the text books all in braille?

:clap:

Angelo Roncalli
08-04-2015, 01:06 PM
Interesting...

It appears that Dave Libbey is no longer affiliated with the conference:

http://wccsports.com/page/wcc_staff-directory

seacatfan
08-04-2015, 02:13 PM
Interesting...

It appears that Dave Libbey is no longer affiliated with the conference:

http://wccsports.com/page/wcc_staff-directory

Now THAT is good news. Everybody hates Libbey.

Fonebone
08-04-2015, 02:43 PM
Something that I have wondered about the last two or three years, is that every game at the Kennel, Libby was there at the table in front of the student section. I assume that he would travel around to all the venues, and found it interesting that he was at every single home game we had, without exception I believe. I made note of it and started watching for it every game.

Aside from smart remarks, which I am looking forward to, does anyone have any idea what might have been up with that ?

Thanks

CDC84
08-04-2015, 03:02 PM
This regional approach matches the trend nationwide for using the best officials in multiple conferences throughout the year, and is designed to promote consistency in training, development, and evaluation of basketball officials, as well as provide a larger and more diverse pool of officials.

What about discipline for poor performance? Training and evaluation are useless unless there are consequences for those officials who fail their evaluations. The guy who will be running this thing has been a conference coordinator of officials for 23 years. The bad apples will just be assigned Big West games. There's still too much patronage for me.

23zagmd
08-04-2015, 03:50 PM
Statements like this are SOOOO ridiculous....You clearly have NO idea what these guys go thru to even get jobs in these conferences, what kind of training they do(like spend all summer at clinic after clinic) and the scrutiny they are under for every single call they make!
So the WCC refs are finally going to get some training. Cool stuff

TheZagPhish
08-04-2015, 03:59 PM
Now THAT is good news. Everybody hates Libbey.

(Sheepishly folds up and puts away "I heart Dave Libbey" t-shirt)

23zagmd
08-04-2015, 04:01 PM
He was head of officials for the WCC. And as one of his crew who is from Spokane and does a lot of GU's scrimmages and some of their "games against the sisters of the poor", his words, said to me at a clinic.....GU gets the best referees for the biggest games they have both in and out of conference. That is why you will regularly see guys like Greg Nixon, Jimmy Cosas, etc. doing the games. They are considered some of the best in the business.

Something that I have wondered about the last two or three years, is that every game at the Kennel, Libby was there at the table in front of the student section. I assume that he would travel around to all the venues, and found it interesting that he was at every single home game we had, without exception I believe. I made note of it and started watching for it every game.

Aside from smart remarks, which I am looking forward to, does anyone have any idea what might have been up with that ?

Thanks

ProjectMKUltra5
08-04-2015, 04:32 PM
Statements like this are SOOOO ridiculous....You clearly have NO idea what these guys go thru to even get jobs in these conferences, what kind of training they do(like spend all summer at clinic after clinic) and the scrutiny they are under for every single call they make!

You can't criticize anything around here without somebody getting salty about it. This place is charmin soft

Bouldin4Prez
08-04-2015, 04:48 PM
Something I have realized with referees is that when a call goes for you, you love the ref. If the call goes against you, you hate the ref. Referees get a bad shake at it because no one truly looks at a referee from a completely unbiased standpoint. Yes, sometimes the WCC refs make bad calls. Are they trying their hardest to get the call right? Of course. Until WCC refs get paid like it's their full-time job, they will continue to put out a product that won't be up to par with the standards of the board members here.

zagamatic
08-04-2015, 04:49 PM
I have a hunch that this will be good for our bigs. Not only in the WCC, but out of conference as well going forward.

Fonebone
08-04-2015, 05:33 PM
23 zagmd. Thanks for that info on how they give us the best for the big games. Its good for us, and perhaps the fact that those games often have a big regional or national audience, they want to put their best foot forward.

I know that Libby was the head of the refs, and so that's why he was here. What I find puzzling is that half our league games are at home, and he was, I think, here for every one of them. That means that he only had half the rest of the game to be in all the other home courts in the league. A weekend the team is in town, he was here for both, and not at any other schools. It just seemed very odd too me.

seacatfan
08-04-2015, 06:51 PM
(Sheepishly folds up and puts away "I heart Dave Libbey" t-shirt)

Oops, my bad. You can keep your t-shirt. Let me amend that, many were not fans of Libbey. From his reffing days, maybe as a head of officials he was great.

sittingon50
08-04-2015, 08:55 PM
Something that I have wondered about the last two or three years, is that every game at the Kennel, Libby was there at the table in front of the student section. I assume that he would travel around to all the venues, and found it interesting that he was at every single home game we had, without exception I believe. I made note of it and started watching for it every game.

Aside from smart remarks, which I am looking forward to, does anyone have any idea what might have been up with that ?

Thanks

Fone, the "Officials Observer" @ K2 (sits in front on the Kennel Club to the right as you look @ the court) is Paul Cooley (in his 50's, nice head of white hair). He's also the softball coach @ West Valley HS. Dave Libbey is in his 60's, darker skin & dark, wavy hair. He has only been to GU a handful of times since he stopped officiating a # of years ago.

sittingon50
08-04-2015, 09:04 PM
What about discipline for poor performance? Training and evaluation are useless unless there are consequences for those officials who fail their evaluations. The guy who will be running this thing has been a conference coordinator of officials for 23 years. The bad apples will just be assigned Big West games. There's still too much patronage for me.


There have been 3-4 officials (that I know of) that have been dropped by the WCC in the last couple of years. And yeah, those that didn't just retire have moved to the lower leagues.

A lot of the guys that do WCC also do the Pac 12. I'm not sure that these other leagues have more than a couple of guys each that are better than what we've seen. Time will tell, I guess.

sittingon50
08-04-2015, 09:06 PM
He was head of officials for the WCC. And as one of his crew who is from Spokane and does a lot of GU's scrimmages and some of their "games against the sisters of the poor", his words, said to me at a clinic.....GU gets the best referees for the biggest games they have both in and out of conference. That is why you will regularly see guys like Greg Nixon, Jimmy Cosas, etc. doing the games. They are considered some of the best in the business.

I would tend to agree with what you have stated, md.

RenoZag
08-05-2015, 04:02 AM
You just made my day, Angelo

TexasZagFan
08-05-2015, 05:35 AM
Bobby Dibler is well respected in the officiating ranks. He never did any UTEP games when I was in El Paso, because he was friends with Don Haskins.

This is a good move.

TexasZagFan
08-05-2015, 05:36 AM
You can't criticize anything around here without somebody getting salty about it. This place is charmin soft

And you're Sergeant Rock, I presume?

23zagmd
08-05-2015, 06:00 AM
He is most likely evaluating a less experienced referee or someone they are trying to push thru the ranks. The other logical reason is probably that our games are the most viewed on the national stage and he is making damn sure that things are going smoothly and that there are NO big problems that arise. There are also several other reasons that this may be happening including coincidence, but....


23 zagmd. Thanks for that info on how they give us the best for the big games. Its good for us, and perhaps the fact that those games often have a big regional or national audience, they want to put their best foot forward.

I know that Libby was the head of the refs, and so that's why he was here. What I find puzzling is that half our league games are at home, and he was, I think, here for every one of them. That means that he only had half the rest of the game to be in all the other home courts in the league. A weekend the team is in town, he was here for both, and not at any other schools. It just seemed very odd too me.

23zagmd
08-05-2015, 06:23 AM
But this isn't criticism! This is lazily disregarding facts. To criticize, don't you have to at least have a basic knowledge of the process and an understanding of what goes into something? Guys don't throw on stripes and go referee NCAA games! Most of the guys you are criticizing have been perfecting this craft for at least 10+ years and when I say perfecting, I'm talking about an attention to detail that most people can't even comprehend. There are stories about NBA guys who have spent hundreds of hours in yoga studios with mirrors correcting errors in their mechanics and how they look when making a call. Thousands of hours reviewing video tape of refereed games to understand positioning and how moving as little as 6 inches in one direction can affect how you see and make a call. So the next time you are criticizing from the stands and we all do it, including me, think about what you just saw? Was it a bad call? Maybe! But more likely it was the right call for the right time with an official that has spent the better part of a decade trying to get the correct.

Somebody also brought up Pay. These guys are paid very well for their work. Most of them do 50-70 NCAA games a year and get paid about $1500-2000 a game plus expenses. I'm sure ACC officials make more than that but I don't know the scale there. But don't get me wrong, the pay is not commensurate with the work and the scrutiny!
You can't criticize anything around here without somebody getting salty about it. This place is charmin soft

willandi
08-05-2015, 06:43 AM
All of what you say 23zagmd, is probably right, the time spent trying to perfect the craft. It doesn't negate the calls against Shem when a guard runs into his stationary chest and he gets called for the foul. It doesn't change the players that drive and lean into a defender and the defender gets called, jumping into a player on a long shot and the defender being called.

Few, it seems, teaches the Zags to play by the rules, as written. Other coaches seem to teach trying to stretch those boundaries, and many times the refs give them the call.

I hope that this consortium leads to consistency in calls, I hope that it stops bail-out calls. I do think that MOST OF THE TIME, the refs try to do a good job, but I have seen too many discrepancies to place them on the pedestal that you have provided.

Hoopaholic
08-05-2015, 06:49 AM
But this isn't criticism! This is lazily disregarding facts. To criticize, don't you have to at least have a basic knowledge of the process and an understanding of what goes into something? Guys don't throw on stripes and go referee NCAA games! Most of the guys you are criticizing have been perfecting this craft for at least 10+ years and when I say perfecting, I'm talking about an attention to detail that most people can't even comprehend. There are stories about NBA guys who have spent hundreds of hours in yoga studios with mirrors correcting errors in their mechanics and how they look when making a call. Thousands of hours reviewing video tape of refereed games to understand positioning and how moving as little as 6 inches in one direction can affect how you see and make a call. So the next time you are criticizing from the stands and we all do it, including me, think about what you just saw? Was it a bad call? Maybe! But more likely it was the right call for the right time with an official that has spent the better part of a decade trying to get the correct.

Somebody also brought up Pay. These guys are paid very well for their work. Most of them do 50-70 NCAA games a year and get paid about $1500-2000 a game plus expenses. I'm sure ACC officials make more than that but I don't know the scale there. But don't get me wrong, the pay is not commensurate with the work and the scrutiny!

Yep....Have a friend and work associate who is a WCC Pac 12 ref. He is constantly reviewing film, self reflecting and discussing to get better...he works AS HARD between games as he does during a game....but I still get to rib him when he blows a call....after all they are human

23zagmd
08-05-2015, 07:21 AM
Excellent time to bring up this discussion. I was going to put in another thread but here goes.

So every year there is a new "point of emphasis" in officiating. Last year it was "hand checking". This year, along with all the rules changes to make the game better, it is going to be "verticality". This is exactly what you are talking about. I just spend 4 days at a clinic where we spent an unbelievable amount of time talking about how to officiate verticality plays. Essentially: Does the player have Legal Guarding Position? Was he vertical? Who created the contact? Did the contact affect the play? Are we allowing the play to Develop and officiating the Finish? Oh! Was there a foul at all? And btw, this takes place in the fraction of a second. It is VERY complicated because most of the time, there are two + defenders and you have 2 officials refereeing the play. Are they seeing the same thing? who's call is it/who's primary defender? Do we have the same look?(NO!), etc. So guys have spent all summer working on this issue and how to officiate it and I think in the end, you will see that these plays will be officiated differently this year. There will be much more attention paid to the positioning and verticality of the defender.

Now to my story, Ed Rush comes to this clinic. Many people know him as a legend in NBA officiating, he oversees Pac 12 officials now, and has a website called Court Club that is an unbelievable tool used to raise the level of officiating across the board. He's the Godfather! He recently told a story about being in NY with a bunch of scouts, NBA execs, USA basketball people. They were talking about this topic and the conversation switched to J Okafor with the scouts asking Coach K about his ability to play D. Basically, this was the knock in NBA circles and right before the draft. In short, Duke basically told JO to not defend a lot of plays of this nature. They needed him on the floor but MORE importantly, Coach K told the scouts that they were NOT comfortable that the NCAA refs would consistently get the verticality rules correct and that they weren't willing to risk JO going to the bench over a marginal foul call. He also said that this is exactly what happened in the Gonzaga game, only they benefited because PK picked up an early foul on a marginal verticality call. Proved his point, and could have swayed the game a little in Dukes favor! I still find this story fascinating every time I think about it!
"
All of you say 23zagmd, is probably right, the time spent trying to perfect the craft. It doesn't negate the calls against Shem when a guard runs into his stationary chest and he gets called for the foul. It doesn't change the players that drive and lean into a defender and the defender gets called, jumping into a player on a long shot and the defender being called.

Few, it seems, teaches the Zags to play by the rules, as written. Other coaches seem to teach trying to stretch those boundaries, and many times the refs give them the call.

I hope that this consortium leads to consistency in calls, I hope that it stops bail-out calls. I do think that MOST OF THE TIME, the refs try to do a good job, but I have seen too many discrepancies to place them on the pedestal that you have provided.

Bogozags
08-05-2015, 07:55 AM
Excellent time to bring up this discussion. I was going to put in another thread but here goes.

So every year there is a new "point of emphasis" in officiating. Last year it was "hand checking". This year, along with all the rules changes to make the game better, it is going to be "verticality". This is exactly what you are talking about. I just spend 4 days at a clinic where we spent an unbelievable amount of time talking about how to officiate verticality plays. Essentially: Does the player have Legal Guarding Position? Was he vertical? Who created the contact? Did the contact affect the play? Are we allowing the play to Develop and officiating the Finish? Oh! Was there a foul at all? And btw, this takes place in the fraction of a second. It is VERY complicated because most of the time, there are two + defenders and you have 2 officials refereeing the play. Are they seeing the same thing? who's call is it/who's primary defender? Do we have the same look?(NO!), etc. So guys have spent all summer working on this issue and how to officiate it and I think in the end, you will see that these plays will be officiated differently this year. There will be much more attention paid to the positioning and verticality of the defender.

Now to my story, Ed Rush comes to this clinic. Many people know him as a legend in NBA officiating, he oversees Pac 12 officials now, and has a website called Court Club that is an unbelievable tool used to raise the level of officiating across the board. He's the Godfather! He recently told a story about being in NY with a bunch of scouts, NBA execs, USA basketball people. They were talking about this topic and the conversation switched to J Okafor with the scouts asking Coach K about his ability to play D. Basically, this was the knock in NBA circles and right before the draft. In short, Duke basically told JO to not defend a lot of plays of this nature. They needed him on the floor but MORE importantly, Coach K told the scouts that they were NOT comfortable that the NCAA refs would consistently get the verticality rules correct and that they weren't willing to risk JO going to the bench over a marginal foul call. He also said that this is exactly what happened in the Gonzaga game, only they benefited because PK picked up an early foul on a marginal verticality call. Proved his point, and could have swayed the game a little in Dukes favor! I still find this story fascinating every time I think about it!
"



I concur with much of what you wrote...I think back to the call against PK vs Duke...that was a HORRIBLE call no matter where you were in the stands and especially if you were watching on TV and almost all of us were...another completely blown call was the basket interference call against SMU...that ball was not close to going in and in fact was basically an air ball BUT the official made that call costing SMU thousands of dollars!

I officiated for over ten years and my biggest complaint is that officials have either six eyes on the ball and then make a call outside of their area of responsibility. The most difficult calls to make are block/charge and traveling. I am amazed at how many times the defender is charged with the foul, when in fact the ball handler/shooter was the offender. You say this will be a point of emphasis. I remember last season, hand-checking was the point of emphasis and it was called tightly at the beginning of the season BUT as the season progressed, officials would blow their whistle and make that call. I expect the same thing with verticality...it will be called early and then the officials will once again lay off that call. In traveling most people believe you get two steps...it is one and a half of the pivot foot, once leaving the court must not contact the court again unless the ball is released by the player.

On another occasion the NCAA also had a point of emphasis of not taking crap from the coaches...well that didn't last either...

The point I am getting to is that no matter the rule or point of emphasis, each official has his own interpretation on what constitutes a violation or foul. I know we use to go back and look at the film after a game and see exactly how we officiated that game...calls were missed and calls that should not have been blown...

I am anxious to see how the games are called in the various conferences and I'll make a wager conferences will interpret the verticality slightly differently.

I do hope with the consortium on the west coast, there will be more consistency, which is a big concern with all coaches...just make the call the same way on both sides of the court...

Oh, Thank You for your insights...I found Coach K's thinking to be "outside the box" and one of the reasons he is one of the two four coaches of all time...imo

ProjectMKUltra5
08-05-2015, 09:00 AM
But this isn't criticism! This is lazily disregarding facts. To criticize, don't you have to at least have a basic knowledge of the process and an understanding of what goes into something? Guys don't throw on stripes and go referee NCAA games! Most of the guys you are criticizing have been perfecting this craft for at least 10+ years and when I say perfecting, I'm talking about an attention to detail that most people can't even comprehend. There are stories about NBA guys who have spent hundreds of hours in yoga studios with mirrors correcting errors in their mechanics and how they look when making a call. Thousands of hours reviewing video tape of refereed games to understand positioning and how moving as little as 6 inches in one direction can affect how you see and make a call. So the next time you are criticizing from the stands and we all do it, including me, think about what you just saw? Was it a bad call? Maybe! But more likely it was the right call for the right time with an official that has spent the better part of a decade trying to get the correct.

Somebody also brought up Pay. These guys are paid very well for their work. Most of them do 50-70 NCAA games a year and get paid about $1500-2000 a game plus expenses. I'm sure ACC officials make more than that but I don't know the scale there. But don't get me wrong, the pay is not commensurate with the work and the scrutiny!

It. Was. A. Joke. Capisce?

Thanks for proving my point tho, you can't even crack a joke about refs without somebody talking about A+ effort and getting salty about it.

Fonebone
08-05-2015, 09:21 AM
Fone, the "Officials Observer" @ K2 (sits in front on the Kennel Club to the right as you look @ the court) is Paul Cooley (in his 50's, nice head of white hair). He's also the softball coach @ West Valley HS. Dave Libbey is in his 60's, darker skin & dark, wavy hair. He has only been to GU a handful of times since he stopped officiating a # of years ago.

Thanks for clarifying that Sittingon50. Don't know why I was so sure that was Libby.

23zagmd
08-05-2015, 09:57 AM
Agree, there are a lot of whistles early in the year. The thinking is that coaches and players adjust quickly. I think Few has done a great job with our big guys on verticality and getting them to adjust. TheIy've essentially made the transition. I think you will see the results of that this year. I was just watching film this morning of the duke game and 3 verticality calls that went against us and should have been no calls on all three.
I concur with much of what you wrote...I think back to the call against PK vs Duke...that was a HORRIBLE call no matter where you were in the stands and especially if you were watching on TV and almost all of us were...another completely blown call was the basket interference call against SMU...that ball was not close to going in and in fact was basically an air ball BUT the official made that call costing SMU thousands of dollars!

I officiated for over ten years and my biggest complaint is that officials have either six eyes on the ball and then make a call outside of their area of responsibility. The most difficult calls to make are block/charge and traveling. I am amazed at how many times the defender is charged with the foul, when in fact the ball handler/shooter was the offender. You say this will be a point of emphasis. I remember last season, hand-checking was the point of emphasis and it was called tightly at the beginning of the season BUT as the season progressed, officials would blow their whistle and make that call. I expect the same thing with verticality...it will be called early and then the officials will once again lay off that call. In traveling most people believe you get two steps...it is one and a half of the pivot foot, once leaving the court must not contact the court again unless the ball is released by the player.

On another occasion the NCAA also had a point of emphasis of not taking crap from the coaches...well that didn't last either...

The point I am getting to is that no matter the rule or point of emphasis, each official has his own interpretation on what constitutes a violation or foul. I know we use to go back and look at the film after a game and see exactly how we officiated that game...calls were missed and calls that should not have been blown...

I am anxious to see how the games are called in the various conferences and I'll make a wager conferences will interpret the verticality slightly differently.

I do hope with the consortium on the west coast, there will be more consistency, which is a big concern with all coaches...just make the call the same way on both sides of the court...

Oh, Thank You for your insights...I found Coach K's thinking to be "outside the box" and one of the reasons he is one of the two four coaches of all time...imo

DixieZag
08-05-2015, 10:28 AM
I do not have the experience to analyze the verticality thing like some here, so I appreciate learning about how it all plays out.

I see why it is so hard. My only real gripe are games when the refs seems to consistently bail people out who really had no other plan than to drive into the middle of everyone and count on something being called a foul. It's a both ways thing for me, I often note when we do it. Kevin was pretty good at it.

If might be PTSD due to the loss at USF 4 years ago where for the last 5 minutes, USF's entire offense was to waste 30 seconds and drive to the middle heaving up some shot that can't even get through arms, fouling out our sixth guy (seemingly) and getting the calls, which I think was right about the worse case of end game officiating that I can remember. So, to this day, I'm with the defender in those situations, and notice both ends.

LongIslandZagFan
08-05-2015, 11:38 AM
(Sheepishly folds up and puts away "I heart Dave Libbey" t-shirt)

LOL... think some missed your sarcasm.

ZagsGoZags
08-05-2015, 12:03 PM
I hope this will bring WCC officiating into patterns that will resemble the patterns used in the Big Five Conferences that are located to the East of us.

gonzagafan62
08-05-2015, 12:30 PM
All of what you say 23zagmd, is probably right, the time spent trying to perfect the craft. It doesn't negate the calls against Shem when a guard runs into his stationary chest and he gets called for the foul. It doesn't change the players that drive and lean into a defender and the defender gets called, jumping into a player on a long shot and the defender being called.

Few, it seems, teaches the Zags to play by the rules, as written. Other coaches seem to teach trying to stretch those boundaries, and many times the refs give them the call.

I hope that this consortium leads to consistency in calls, I hope that it stops bail-out calls. I do think that MOST OF THE TIME, the refs try to do a good job, but I have seen too many discrepancies to place them on the pedestal that you have provided.

I agree with this statement.

Fonebone
08-06-2015, 01:32 PM
Generally when I watch instant replays I am amazed at how often the refs get it right. With all that is happening so quickly, I don't know how they can do it. I assume they have above average visual ability. Sometimes they clearly blow it of course, but the vast majority of the time they are eaither right, or its close. Its all hapening so fast.

23zagmd
08-06-2015, 02:47 PM
If you put yourself in the right position. It's easy to make the right call. The great officials are the ones that see things before they happen and are able to position adjust to get the right look. This takes years and lots of reps, just like the players!

Generally when I watch instant replays I am amazed at how often the refs get it right. With all that is happening so quickly, I don't know how they can do it. I assume they have above average visual ability. Sometimes they clearly blow it of course, but the vast majority of the time they are eaither right, or its close. Its all hapening so fast.

jake
08-07-2015, 10:56 AM
Something I have realized with referees is that when a call goes for you, you love the ref. If the call goes against you, you hate the ref. Referees get a bad shake at it because no one truly looks at a referee from a completely unbiased standpoint. Yes, sometimes the WCC refs make bad calls. Are they trying their hardest to get the call right? Of course. Until WCC refs get paid like it's their full-time job, they will continue to put out a product that won't be up to par with the standards of the board members here.

Exactly. I am all for training and improvement, but the fact that you can go conference to conference and most people think the referees they get are not great, is a sign they are not as bad, or at least biased, as anyone thinks.

RenoZag
08-07-2015, 12:11 PM
23zagmd:

Thank you for the first-hand insights and opinions you offer in this thread.

Fonebone
08-07-2015, 07:59 PM
If you put yourself in the right position. It's easy to make the right call. The great officials are the ones that see things before they happen and are able to position adjust to get the right look. This takes years and lots of reps, just like the players!

Thanks 23 Zag. Do you ref and at what level ?

23zagmd
08-08-2015, 08:26 AM
High School and hoping to move into college next year. it's an interesting process.
Thanks 23 Zag. Do you ref and at what level ?

ProjectMKUltra5
08-08-2015, 08:54 AM
High School and hoping to move into college next year. it's an interesting process.

You work the GSL?

DixieZag
08-08-2015, 09:15 AM
High School and hoping to move into college next year. it's an interesting process.

And one that I think would take quite a bit of time, even more than umpires.

BTW - Question: Are the NBA referees considered "better" than the very top college ones? I've often wondered whether the NBA was near "UFC-Level" lawless enough that officiating was way low in priority and the best refs would rather be in the highest levels of college basketball?

It may be a really stupid "of course they are" answer, but being stupid affords me the luxury of learning so much.

23zagmd
08-08-2015, 12:59 PM
I work in the Seattle area, mostly high school and high level AAU stuff. Not in all cases. I would say, collectively that the NBA guys are better, there are only 65 of them, but there are some SUPER NCAA guys that maybe don't have a desire or are at a point in their lives where it makes sense to have that kind of lifestyle. In talking with a couple of them, it is clearly super stressful and the scrutiny is unbelievable. They are graded on basically every single whistle they blow with the league oversight being pretty tedious. Monty McCuthen is probably considered the best official in the business and a local guy from Seattle, Scott Twardosky, told a group of us at a seminar that EVERY decision he made about his career was to get to the NBA as an official. This included turning down $100k a year in NCAA M/W games just to get an opportunity to get to the league. They are fascinating people who are singularly focused with a level of confidence that is really hard to comprehend at times. It consumes a lot of them, IMHO.
And one that I think would take quite a bit of time, even more than umpies.

BTW - Question: Are the NBA referees considered "better" than the very top college ones? I've often wondered whether the NBA was near "UFC-Level" lawless enough that officiating was way low in priority and the best refs would rather be in the highest levels of college basketball?

It may be a really stupid "of course they are" answer, but being stupid affords me the luxury of learning so much.

Bogozags
08-08-2015, 01:13 PM
I would mention there is one very big difference between college and NBA officials. That difference is in the NBA they have to know what not to call (traveling, three seconds and also to let the "stars" of the league not get too many fouls), because fans don't come to NBA games to watch "basketball" but rather they come to watch the "stars" perform and if a James or Bryant pick up a second foul in the first quarter, then they might have to sit. A father didn't bring his son/daughter to an NBA game to watch either of those stars sit on the bench. High school and college officiating is about the "game" of basketball, where as the NBA is all about entertainment. IMO it is absolutely crazy how many rules their are in the NBA. FIBA has another set of rules and then the NCAA has their rules as well...

In watching the PANAM games, the announces suggested that both the NBA and NCAA adopt FIBA rules to make the game more simple...probably a good idea but don't think the NBA or NCAA will ever consolidate their rule books.

23zagmd
08-08-2015, 05:17 PM
Rule changes trickle down from the top and always have. 3pt line, halo arc, shot clock etc. However, it's not possible to have uniform rules throughout leagues like that.....the talent level is so different at every level for the players and the officials.

Protecting stars is definitely something the NBA does and should do. however, deciding what not to call happens in every single game, it's just part of the game. No one in their right mind is going to call a marginal travel call on a team down by 25 in the second half at any level of basketball. I've been in games where the best player on a team picks up a quick second foul and in the next timeout the crew will discuss it and make sure that someone better be bleeding before he gets a third in that half....


I would mention there is one very big difference between college and NBA officials. That difference is in the NBA they have to know what not to call (traveling, three seconds and also to let the "stars" of the league not get too many fouls), because fans don't come to NBA games to watch "baatsketball" but rather they come to watch the "stars" perform and if a James or Bryant pick up a second foul in the first quarter, then they might have to sit. A father didn't bring his son/daughter to an NBA game to watch either of those stars sit on the bench. High school and college officiating is the "game" of basketball, where as the NBA is all about entertainment. IMO it is absolutely crazy how many rules their are in the NBA. FIBA has another set of rules and then the NCAA has their rules as well...

In watching the PANAM games, the announces suggested that both the NBA and NCAA adopt FIBA rules to make the game more simple...probably a good idea but don't think the NBA or NCAA will ever consolidate their rule books.

BYU
08-12-2015, 07:03 AM
This is good news. Will the WCC pay what the MWC does per game now?

If not, the WCC will continue to get a lower quality of ref. The money does influence which games the best refs pick to officiate.

zagirl2k
08-15-2015, 09:40 PM
I have a friend whose husband is moving up the ref ranks. It is an interesting process to hear about. The NCAA and NBA tracks are two separate tracks that most people do simultaneously because you can be bumped from the NBA track at any time and then you pretty much have no chance to continue that direction so it is good to stay with college because it has better long term prospects. He's done some D-League camps and was doing an AAU tournament final that was televised earlier this summer. I think he is up to D2 college right now. He has said D1 has been kind of a discombobulated with all the leagues doing things a little differently so this will be an improvement.