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View Full Version : Washington Post .... Zags, Badgers hosed by refs



GoZags
04-07-2015, 02:59 PM
as were Utah and Michigan State in their games against Duke.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2015/04/07/duke-really-did-get-all-the-foul-calls-in-the-2015-ncaa-tournament/?tid=pm_sports_pop_b

hooter73
04-07-2015, 03:11 PM
big names and big players get the calls... unless they're GU... but really that is how it has always been and very rarely does it actually decide the game.

gonzagafan62
04-07-2015, 03:20 PM
big names and big players get the calls... unless they're GU... but really that is how it has always been and very rarely does it actually decide the game.

Well said.

BobZag
04-07-2015, 03:53 PM
http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/51b8e89ceab8eaa87d000009/the-true-origin-of-the-tin-foil-hat-and-why-its-the-stupidest-thing-to-wear-if-youre-paranoid-about-the-government.jpg

GoZags
04-07-2015, 04:01 PM
http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/51b8e89ceab8eaa87d000009/the-true-origin-of-the-tin-foil-hat-and-why-its-the-stupidest-thing-to-wear-if-youre-paranoid-about-the-government.jpg

Good point Bob.

The Washington Post and KenPom ... both known as being "looney"

Bouldin4Prez
04-07-2015, 04:37 PM
Good point Bob.

The Washington Post and KenPom ... both known as being "looney"

I don't think he was saying the sources are "looney" I think he was pointing out that the whole Duke won the title because of a referee conspiracy is far-fetched.

Yes, Duke got some favorable calls throughout the tournament. However, they also attacked the rim more than any other team I watched. This forces the referees to make a decision which resulted in a lot of free throws for them.

cggonzaga
04-07-2015, 04:53 PM
Ask the ACC teams and fans about the officiating in Duke games. Think they call it the coach K rule or something.

Bouldin4Prez
04-07-2015, 05:20 PM
Why even bother playing the games then if Duke gets all the calls and the refs are there to allow Duke to win? I refuse to believe games are rigged by officiating until proven otherwise because I love the game of basketball. Duke was a great team all year and played well in the tournament to earn a championship. If the Zags hit some shots down the stretch against Duke, that could have easily been us cutting down the nets.

Martin Centre Mad Man
04-07-2015, 05:30 PM
http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/51b8e89ceab8eaa87d000009/the-true-origin-of-the-tin-foil-hat-and-why-its-the-stupidest-thing-to-wear-if-youre-paranoid-about-the-government.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cd/0e/fb/cd0efb62ffb287ade612e478108e0841.jpg

GoZags
04-07-2015, 05:32 PM
Why even bother playing the games then if Duke gets all the calls and the refs are there to allow Duke to win? I refuse to believe games are rigged by officiating until proven otherwise because I love the game of basketball. Duke was a great team all year and played well in the tournament to earn a championship. If the Zags hit some shots down the stretch against Duke, that could have easily been us cutting down the nets.

Of course if the Zags had hit some key shots down the stretch the outcome could have been different

BTW ... here's where I "picked up" the Washington Post analysis ... Virginia's Board ... they (the posters in the thread) have a "different" take than yours.
http://chat.virginia.sportswar.com/message_board/basketball/2015/April/7/6299317.php

DixieZag
04-07-2015, 05:40 PM
No one is saying that the refs won the title for Duke.

It's just it isn't quite as hard to win the title when calls are going your way.

Utah lost by 5 - they had their All-American candidate with 3 fouls in the first half.

Our bigs dominated against UCLA, against Duke they had 3 and 2 fouls and we had the out of bounds calls, etc.

Wisconsin, see above.

I don't know the reason. I doubt that the NCAA or CBS minds having Duke, the "love 'em or hate 'em" school in the final, I'm sure they'd have loved Kentucky, just Wisconsin was too good.

It might be that the greatest living coach gets more respect in his "view" of the game than most.

Dunno.

But, numbers don't lie.

btzag
04-07-2015, 06:23 PM
I can't remember the exact analyst but yesterday morning heard an interview about how Duke players, especially Tyus Jones, purposely drive and initiate ALL the contact even to the extreme where their whole purpose of the drive and play is the contact, not necessarily scoring a basket. His particular point was for viewers to watch for that play and if Duke received the benefit of those calls Wisconsin was in serious trouble.

Obviously we know the story of how the game went but that analyst's observation was so crazy on point that I had felt I had a script for the game as I was watching it unfold. Especially as Winslow or Grayson were bulling over defenders or Jones was 'accidentally' elbowing defenders in the face as he went up for shots!

surfmonkey89
04-07-2015, 06:43 PM
One thing that needs to be said: it's going to be incredibly difficult to adopt Duke's "style" of drawing contact with the current WCC officiating philosophy.

We've often been called soft, and it does have some merit (though less every year), but part of the problem is that the players are trained to play in an entirely different way during the conference season due to the officiating.

john montana
04-07-2015, 06:46 PM
I don't think he was saying the sources are "looney" I think he was pointing out that the whole Duke won the title because of a referee conspiracy is far-fetched.

Yes, Duke got some favorable calls throughout the tournament. However, they also attacked the rim more than any other team I watched. This forces the referees to make a decision which resulted in a lot of free throws for them.

+1.

GoZags
04-07-2015, 07:03 PM
Just my observation .... it seemed to me their guys "attacked" the defender as often as they "attacked" the rim.

Zagceo
04-07-2015, 07:12 PM
Just my observation .... it seemed to me their guys "attacked" the defender as often as they "attacked" the rim.

Just like Haws & Co.

bballbeachbum
04-07-2015, 07:52 PM
Just my observation .... it seemed to me their guys "attacked" the defender as often as they "attacked" the rim.

coached to do it. but why is Winslow not called for charges that have even Grant Hill saying things like "he better be careful"?
to beat them a team must overcome this. is Coach K the only coach to preach these teachings? are his teams simply the best to execute them? to me, Koach (good one jazz) gets the game called his way. why? up for debate but he's good at that so why not credit him for being great at getting the game called his way, repeatedly and for a long time? to me it's proven to be a tremendously important skill for him.can't really credit him for it though if one thinks there's nothing there...which I understand you see somehting there, and me too

Winslow got four big calls in that 2nd half, 2 no calls on charges and then 2 out of bounds plays that were off him but called the other way, including replay (hello CBS). that sucks, pretty tough to overcome just that right there, but reveals that in the least the refs thought Winslow was more than replay revealed while they gave him the nod, over and over. it is what it is, whatever one's explanation. anyway it's not like Duke sucks and Okafor and Jones stepped up late and made plays, props to them too for taking over through it all, which they did

Bouldin4Prez
04-07-2015, 07:55 PM
Just my observation .... it seemed to me their guys "attacked" the defender as often as they "attacked" the rim.

I 100% agree with you. I believe defenders are at a huge disadvantage today. Offensive players continually jump into the defender and it is often called a foul on the defender instead of an offensive foul. As a defender you are entitled to a spot on the court and officials lose sight of that fact.

BobZag
04-08-2015, 08:13 AM
One thing that needs to be said: it's going to be incredibly difficult to adopt Duke's "style" of drawing contact with the current WCC officiating philosophy.

We've often been called soft, and it does have some merit (though less every year), but part of the problem is that the players are trained to play in an entirely different way during the conference season due to the officiating.

Love your Geico traveling chicken ad song, Roy.

I leave the story untold.

hooter73
04-08-2015, 09:04 AM
I 100% agree with you. I believe defenders are at a huge disadvantage today. Offensive players continually jump into the defender and it is often called a foul on the defender instead of an offensive foul. As a defender you are entitled to a spot on the court and officials lose sight of that fact.

Very true but until it is called equally, the offensive player gets the majority of the calls and coaching staffs have to figure out how to teach their players to adjust to it.

sylean
04-08-2015, 09:23 AM
in the womens game, the refs rewarded the Tenn women free throw after free throw..meanwhile our women were being knocked to the floor, tripped without benefit of free throws..........Tenn scored all their points in OT on free throws.....

TheGonzagaFactor
04-08-2015, 09:51 AM
I 100% agree with you. I believe defenders are at a huge disadvantage today. Offensive players continually jump into the defender and it is often called a foul on the defender instead of an offensive foul. As a defender you are entitled to a spot on the court and officials lose sight of that fact.


This is probably the biggest problem in modern basketball. When I was a kid, I never heard anyone talking about "creating contact" but in the last few years we have seen countless players praised constantly for it. The way Tyus Jones would run into our players and snap his head and entire upper body back was just pathetic Tyler Haws does the same thing. I love basketball and grew up loving it, but if the game was played like this when I was a kid, I would've probably looked for another sport where flopping is rewarded, praised, and even TAUGHT. Drive to the basket, jump in a completely different direction to bump into a defender (who might be defending someone else) and throw up some ugly desperation shot... moron ref calls foul, player is praised. If AAU and HS ball were like this 10+ years ago, I would've averaged 25+ PPG.

I've even heard it when people evaluate/scout players. I've seen it in HS player scouting reports-- "Great at creating contact"... so in other words, he's the kind of guy that will hang his teammates out to dry if the officials working the game have any respect for the game of basketball. Luckily for guys like Jones/Winslow, no one really seems to respect the game anymore and that's how they made it to Indy and won a title.

mgadfly
04-09-2015, 08:12 AM
My problem with the officiating was it deprived us (conspiracy or not) of the finish to a great game and tournament we fans all deserved. Duke got way too many calls against Wisky down the stretch including two extra possessions (stepping on end-line, tipping ball out of bounds). They also had a non-call that favored Winslow and a non-call that favored JO.

And the other point I'd make about how they were driving and attacking the basket, that argument drives me crazy. A hand check on a drive (or getting your head taken off by a guard "creating contact") is now a foul, but using an axe and machete on the low block is a "let them play" situation. Where in the rules is a driving guard style of play a protected status over Wisky's (and GU's) more post oriented offense. If Shem can't put his hand on a driving Duke (or any other team's) guard, then they shouldn't be able to body him, arm bar him, shove and push him on the block.