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View Full Version : Official National Title Game Discussion Thread: Wisconsin vs. Duke



CDC84
04-06-2015, 08:14 AM
6:18 PT = (1) Wisconsin vs. (1) Duke

In case you need a reminder, both teams faced each other on December 3 in Madison. Duke won 80-70. The Blue Devils shot 65.2% in the game. Tyus Jones was nearly unstoppable with 22 points, 6 boards and 4 assists.

I am going with Duke in this game. Although it is very hard for a great team to beat another great team two times in a row, I just have a hard time believing, despite their claims to the contrary, that Wisconsin is going to bring the same amount of energy and intensity to this game as they did the UK game. Saturday's win wasn't just about bringing down an undefeated team....it was also about taking down a team who had finished them off in the previous year's tournament. It was the ultimate revenge game.

Also, as great as Wisconsin looked against UK and Zona, I still feel Duke is playing the best basketball of anyone in the tournament right now. And you also have Coach K's coaching experience at this level. I like that as well.

That being said, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Badgers won tonight.

Here's a nice game preview (keys to the game) from TSN:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2015-04-06/duke-wisconsin-national-championship-game-2015-final-four-ncaa-tournament-preview-matchup-keys-frank-kaminsky

rennis
04-06-2015, 08:18 AM
Duke.

Everyone knows the road to the championship goes through Gonzaga.

:P

Zaga
04-06-2015, 08:18 AM
Badgers in a nail biter. Dekker gets MVP

LongIslandZagFan
04-06-2015, 08:27 AM
I thought I read somewhere that Cal didn't bother to spend much time watching tape of Wisconsin. All the more reason to believe that whilst he is a great recruiter... Xs and Os... not so much.

gonzagafan62
04-06-2015, 08:34 AM
One of our workers that came up from down south said she is a "Huge" "Duke" "fan"..... Ive never seen her ever talk about the team, and we have seen her about 50 times in the last 7 years and I also worked with her before that down south for 3 years, so a total f 10 years, and she's never said a thing.

"Huge"?

Sure, whatever. Bet you she doesn't even know who they beat in the Elite Eight? She also saw all my Gonzaga stuff in my office and didn't say anything. LOL

On Wisconsin.

willandi
04-06-2015, 09:42 AM
One of our workers that came up from down south said she is a "Huge" "Duke" "fan"..... "Huge"?

Several years ago, I was listening to a show on ESPN radio while driving to work. One of the co-hosts had been a lineman in the NFL, so when callers came on, they were to lead with their first name, their weight and their favorite sports team. Mostly it was men that were calling so it was quite the call when it was " Hi! I'm Betty! I weigh 280 lbs and I'm a HUGE Giants fan"!

Mr Vulture
04-06-2015, 01:04 PM
Duke 81
Wisconsin 75

Of course, I have Duke to win a basketball pool so I may be biased... :pray:

gonzagafan62
04-06-2015, 01:19 PM
Several years ago, I was listening to a show on ESPN radio while driving to work. One of the co-hosts had been a lineman in the NFL, so when callers came on, they were to lead with their first name, their weight and their favorite sports team. Mostly it was men that were calling so it was quite the call when it was " Hi! I'm Betty! I weigh 280 lbs and I'm a HUGE Giants fan"!

LOL! Priceless!

DixieZag
04-06-2015, 01:31 PM
I guess I"m for Duke. It makes Gonzaga's loss more noble if Few can point to the fact that "Yeah, we lost to Duke, but no one else beat them, either."

Plus, I'm getting to the point that I have an aversion to Bo Ryan.

Birddog
04-06-2015, 05:07 PM
On Wisconsin, fook Duke.

Birddog
04-06-2015, 05:09 PM
I hope Raftery has a great game! don't care about Nantz and Hill.

RenoZag
04-06-2015, 05:21 PM
They called an offensive foul on Okafor !!

I'm shocked

DixieZag
04-06-2015, 05:48 PM
Well, as of 7:00 in the first half, Gonzaga proved it could hang with Duke as well as any team in the nation.

CDC84
04-06-2015, 05:56 PM
The crowd is pretty crazy tonight. Loud as heck.

Birddog
04-06-2015, 05:59 PM
The crowd is pretty crazy tonight. Loud as heck.

So loud I can barely hear Nantz and Kellogg which is a good thing I'm learning. The sound technicians don't have it miked right or the guy on the mixer is bad.

Birddog
04-06-2015, 06:04 PM
Duke not used to getting a foul disadvantage. Look for K to really work the refs in the 2nd half.

Angelo Roncalli
04-06-2015, 06:05 PM
There was discussion in a different thread a few days ago about what a low percentage shot the mid-range jumper is. The "drive the lane floater" can't be a much higher percentage shot.

Rbo
04-06-2015, 06:05 PM
Used to like Duke, now they are my worst team on the planet. Rafferty is driving me crazy...he's been such a homer against Wisconsin the last two games.

raise the zag
04-06-2015, 06:09 PM
Be more versatile on defense.

Anyone notice Duke employing M2M with Okafor and Zone without him?

BRILLIANT!

We will have the horses to hold their own, yet its imperative given certain match-ups to ZONE.

I understand the WCC is the best shooting conference in the country, yet implementing some zone is helpful when called upon.

Coach Few and our team were ridiculously predictable on defense this year.

We knew they'd attack Pangos, watch GBJ fights thru ball-screens, have Wesley chase the athletic wing, and our bigs to man up one on one.

Awesome, yet Duke's zone is stifling Wisconsin, because it was UNEXPECTED as Okafor rarely gets fouls called on him.

I love it.

I called all season to swith-it-up more. I thought were weren't very versatile or unpredictable…on defense.

I love our M2M and our ability to hold our own, yet occasionally a stiff zone will help.

Not to mention our PG is 6'3", our SG is 6'3", our wing is 6'5"(Alberts and Dranginis) next season…

Our backcourt is bigger and faster and quicker.

Its OK to zone sometimes. I just hope to see it more, at least mix it up, so we can use it when it counts.

MARCH MADNESS!

Birddog
04-06-2015, 06:27 PM
Spin cycle YESSSS!

MJ777
04-06-2015, 06:32 PM
Does anyone know how many times GU has lost to the eventual tourney champion? I think it is 3 (UCONN 99, MSU and UNC). I would rather Wisconsin win than to add Duke to that list of champions that knocked out the Zags.

surfmonkey89
04-06-2015, 06:41 PM
Wisconsin is just playing really good, fundamental basketball. Wait for the good shot on offense, block out on D.

ETA: You know, I love Rafftery, but he seems to be openly rooting for Duke.

CDC84
04-06-2015, 06:45 PM
Grayson Allen.....I can just tell....he's going to be the next Bobby Hurley. A Dukie that opposing fans love to hate.

MJ777
04-06-2015, 06:48 PM
Grayson Allen.....I can just tell....he's going to be the next Bobby Hurley. A Dukie that opposing fans love to hate.

I was thinking the same thing. The kid is really good, but he is already getting under my skin and I'm not sure why. He has confidence that's for sure.

surfmonkey89
04-06-2015, 06:50 PM
Nice late whistle.

God I hate Duke

Birddog
04-06-2015, 06:51 PM
Grayson Allen.....I can just tell....he's going to be the next Bobby Hurley. A Dukie that opposing fans love to hate.

I'm already there!

raise the zag
04-06-2015, 06:52 PM
Grayson Allen.....I can just tell....he's going to be the next Bobby Hurley. A Dukie that opposing fans love to hate.

no doubt.

interestingly, only received 3 mins vs GU.

Is Duke running a version of football offense. They did it vs us.

They pass to the wing, run the guard by him, he hands off ball, they go to rim. The guy handing off ball works as natural screen.

Interesting.

Blackbeard
04-06-2015, 06:54 PM
Jazz called it. Okafor is overrated. I haven't seen one decent game from this guy.

Radbooks
04-06-2015, 06:55 PM
From the twitterverse:


Jeff Goodman ‏@GoodmanESPN

RT @SeanGrandePBP: First look: ESPN Films (2037)

"I Hate Grayson Allen"

raise the zag
04-06-2015, 06:57 PM
Jazz called it. Okafor is overrated. I haven't seen one decent game from this guy.

He has nice attributes, yet ONE move.

Bulldoze.

Could you imagine how much Karnowski and Sabonis would own the ACC with their officiating?

Okafor has never fouled out, yet getting whistled tonight and not getting the benefit of touch fouls as he did vs us.

I recall Karnowski being whistled for 3 phantom fouls vs Jah.

MJ777
04-06-2015, 06:57 PM
Jazz called it. Okafor is overrated. I haven't seen one decent game from this guy.

Okafor is Soft. They might be better off with him on the bench.

MJ777
04-06-2015, 06:58 PM
Jeff Goodman ‏@GoodmanESPN

RT @SeanGrandePBP: First look: ESPN Films (2037)

"I Hate Grayson Allen"



From the twitterverse:

:roll:

katman50
04-06-2015, 06:58 PM
Getting very tired of Grant Hill. Get him out of the booth. Too crowded. Plus, a homer. I know he is an institution for the Dooks, but get him out of there!

raise the zag
04-06-2015, 06:58 PM
Duke misses near wide-open lay-up to tie the game at 54.

Sound familiar?

Fate?

Malastein
04-06-2015, 07:00 PM
Both teams are taking questionable outside shots to try bomb away the other team. Grayson Allen plays like a more offensively skilled Mike Hart. I've got to think that Coach K will have his guys executing down the stretch at the highest level just like he did against us. I just hope it comes down to the final possession.

surfmonkey89
04-06-2015, 07:00 PM
Duke is just bulldozing down the lane, and getting away with it. It's been rugby for most of the second half.

katman50
04-06-2015, 07:01 PM
Come on Wisky! Beat the Dooks! Sorry, can't stand them!

MJ777
04-06-2015, 07:01 PM
How frustrated must Arizona fans be watching Dekker throw up bricks?

CDC84
04-06-2015, 07:01 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CB8iIozWAAIJ91T.jpg

Akzag
04-06-2015, 07:05 PM
Pretty entertaining game ...

jayray
04-06-2015, 07:06 PM
Tyus should play soccer, he would fit right in with all the flopping practice he is getting.

Birddog
04-06-2015, 07:08 PM
Tyus should play soccer, he would fit right in with all the flopping practice he is getting.

Agree, that was a flagrant flop

U Zig, I Zag
04-06-2015, 07:10 PM
Allen looks like the best player on the court for Duke.

Wiscy, for all the adoration, might lose this thing to a smaller version of the UK team they just beat. I would say that invidually, the Duke players are more talented.

U Zig, I Zag
04-06-2015, 07:10 PM
Agree, that was a flagrant flop

Hit that and chase the call? You all would fall over Bell if he could do it.

Bouldin4Prez
04-06-2015, 07:10 PM
Enjoy this for what it is. A great college basketball game.

U Zig, I Zag
04-06-2015, 07:14 PM
Enjoy this for what it is. A great college basketball game.
Bingo.

MJ777
04-06-2015, 07:14 PM
Is it continuation if you switch hands while you are shooting?

gobroncsgozags
04-06-2015, 07:16 PM
The fix is in after two out of bounds calls.

U Zig, I Zag
04-06-2015, 07:17 PM
Some gamers. Big time shots going down.

MJ777
04-06-2015, 07:17 PM
Wisconsin should have rested the Tank more while Okafor was on the bench.

U Zig, I Zag
04-06-2015, 07:18 PM
The fix is in after two out of bounds calls.

After seeing several of these over the years, I am not sure the refs on the sideline see the same thing or the detail that we see at home. They need to fix that somehow.

Birddog
04-06-2015, 07:19 PM
That blown out of bounds call may cost Wiscy

jayray
04-06-2015, 07:19 PM
How did they not reverse that call, two different angles it was 100% clear. I don't get it.

NEC26
04-06-2015, 07:20 PM
I don't know what kind of wizardry Duke uses to get all the calls they get but the Zags need to figure it out and start using it. Those refs seem spell bound by Dukes greatness.

surfmonkey89
04-06-2015, 07:20 PM
That blown out of bounds call may cost Wiscy

Potential 5-6 pt swing in what's currently a 3pt game

Bouldin4Prez
04-06-2015, 07:20 PM
You can clearly see his finger get drawn back by the ball. Not sure how much more evidence you need than that.

MJ777
04-06-2015, 07:20 PM
After seeing several of these over the years, I am not sure the refs on the sideline see the same thing or the detail that we see at home. They need to fix that somehow.

They are are probably using low def 17" monitors.

gobroncsgozags
04-06-2015, 07:21 PM
After seeing several of these over the years, I am not sure the refs on the sideline see the same thing or the detail that we see at home. They need to fix that somehow.

Yeah maybe that's true.

They missed the clear step on the baseline a few minutes before too. This is a different ballgame, potentially, if Duke doesn't score there and they give the ball off the fingertips to Wisconsin. Hate to see that.

U Zig, I Zag
04-06-2015, 07:22 PM
How did they not reverse that call, two different angles it was 100% clear. I don't get it.

They need a better view. These refs that prob need reading glasses go to a small screen and ask someone else to control the back and forth and slo mo. Doesn't make sense. They need someone in the truck with the producers that can get a good look.

caduceus
04-06-2015, 07:23 PM
Pfffffffffft.

UABZag
04-06-2015, 07:24 PM
Foot on the line...missed call. Out of bounds on Winslow....another missed call. Duke in the double bonus and Wisky not even in the bonus. More of the same...Oh well

U Zig, I Zag
04-06-2015, 07:25 PM
I don't know what kind of wizardry Duke uses to get all the calls they get but the Zags need to figure it out and start using it. Those refs seem spell bound by Dukes greatness.

Normally I would say it's K and his constant pressure on the Refs but watching Wiscy the last several weeks, Bo is a sour #### of the highest order. I think he tried to direct the refs as much as his team at times. Didn't work I guess.

ehk 21
04-06-2015, 07:25 PM
Duke wins. We lost to the eventual national champions, the team no one else could beat either. Says something about the quality of our season.

MJ777
04-06-2015, 07:25 PM
Oh geez, all the Buffys and Skippys of the world will be insufferable.

NEC26
04-06-2015, 07:25 PM
That second half was horrendously one sided officiating. No calls on charges, Allen fouling everyone in sight yet miraculously getting fouls called on Wisconsin, THREE blown out of bounds calls, it was atrocious.

Birddog
04-06-2015, 07:27 PM
Oh geez, all the Buffys and Skippys of the world will be insufferable.

POST of the DAY

MJ777
04-06-2015, 07:27 PM
At least Wisconsin can say they beat Kentucky, is there a trophy for that?

jayray
04-06-2015, 07:27 PM
Yep, Wisconsin not only had to beat Duke they also had to beat the refs. They didn't execute down the stretch but the refs sure didn't help. Took two possessions from them.

U Zig, I Zag
04-06-2015, 07:28 PM
It was opposite in the first half. Dukes two best players were in foul trouble most of the game.

Birddog
04-06-2015, 07:29 PM
That second half was horrendously one sided officiating. No calls on charges, Allen fouling everyone in sight yet miraculously getting fouls called on Wisconsin, THREE blown out of bounds calls, it was atrocious.

My viewpoint was jaded, but i agree 100% There was a no call on Okafor where he chest bumped then made the basket and got the "and one". that was another mo changer.

jwalk
04-06-2015, 07:30 PM
I just have a hard time watching duke games. It seems like it's always 5 vs 8. Sorry for complaining but that was some really bad officiating in a title game.

raise the zag
04-06-2015, 07:30 PM
How many eventual National Champions has Gonzaga lost to in the Tourney?

At least 3, right?

Duke, UNC, UConn. Any others?

Also, Duke's foul trouble early was a blessing in disguise all along. Wisconsin was gassed, while Winslow and Okafor had a ton left in the tank and took its toll late.

Wisconsin stopped defending b/c they were fatigued.

MJ777
04-06-2015, 07:31 PM
Hopefully there will be some good shots of the Zags during "One Shining Moment". They could rename it "One Whining Moment" in honor of Coaches K, Bo and Calipari as they worked the referees.

MJ777
04-06-2015, 07:32 PM
How many eventual National Champions has Gonzaga lost to in the Tourney?

At least 3, right?

Duke, UNC, UConn. Any others?

Also, Duke's foul trouble early was a blessing in disguise all along. Wisconsin was gassed, while Winslow and Okafor had a ton left in the tank and took its toll late.

Wisconsin stopped defending b/c they were fatigued.

Michigan State in 2000?

Birddog
04-06-2015, 07:33 PM
Hopefully there will be some good shots of the Zags during "One Shining Moment". They could rename it "One Whining Moment" in honor of Coaches K, Bo and Calipari as they worked the referees.

My guess is that it will either be Karno's behind the back pass or a Sabonis reaction primal scream .

surfmonkey89
04-06-2015, 07:36 PM
I'm so tired of hearing how "they only have 8 guys". First, that's rude to the rest of the guys on the team. Second, how many of those 8 scholarship guys are McDAA?

gonzagafan62
04-06-2015, 07:37 PM
How come all of our great teams lose to the NCAA champs?

MJ777
04-06-2015, 07:38 PM
I'm so tired of hearing how "they only have 8 guys". First, that's rude to the rest of the guys on the team. Second, how many of those 8 scholarship guys are McDAA?

8 MAAs? Yeah, Few would never say he only had 8 guys just because they are the only ones he plays. Do the other guys on the Duke bench get to cut the net?

Akzag
04-06-2015, 07:58 PM
Michigan State in 2000?

I had to double check ... Sparty did win it in 2000, but we lost to Purdue that year. Izzo knocked us out in 2001.

so, UConn in 1999, Tar Heels in 2009, and now Duke in 2015. The 2006 team from Inglewood was the National Runner-Up.

MJ777
04-06-2015, 08:02 PM
Weak One Shining Moment. Only Sabs and Karno shown hugging unless I missed something else. They should have shown Chubby from NDSU making a trick shot at least. Izzo and MSU was shown more than anyone other than Wisconsin and Duke.

Zag365
04-06-2015, 08:07 PM
How come all of our great teams lose to the NCAA champs?

I believe the Zags held Duke to its lowest shooting percentage (37.5%) of any team in the tournament and second lowest point total (66; Utah held them to 63). Our TOs and quickness deficit at guard are what kept us out of FF.

Zagceo
04-06-2015, 08:14 PM
Ryan first interview in the locker room is whining about hand checking………nice coach!

willandi
04-06-2015, 08:21 PM
I'm so tired of hearing how "they only have 8 guys". First, that's rude to the rest of the guys on the team. Second, how many of those 8 scholarship guys are McDAA?

The eight guys refered to were the five players and the three non players on the court. At least that's how I interpreted the comment.

CDC84
04-06-2015, 08:32 PM
Most NCAA championship teams go 7 deep....8 max. The thing with Duke is that they had less margin for error than some other teams in case somebody got hurt.

GrizZAG
04-06-2015, 09:03 PM
The eight guys refered to were the five players and the three non players on the court. At least that's how I interpreted the comment.

Agree

I will say the freshmen were sensational, especially the 3's from Tyus Jones one after another. Those were Jimmeresque! Duke knows how to pour on the coal to end games, I hand them that.

JPtheBeasta
04-06-2015, 09:07 PM
How come all of our great teams lose to the NCAA champs?

I thought the same thing earlier :)

gonzagafan62
04-06-2015, 09:13 PM
I thought the same thing earlier :)

Our 3 best teams IMO lost to the champs and our 4 again in my opinion lost to the runner up. Dumb freakin luck. Ugh

LongIslandZagFan
04-06-2015, 09:25 PM
Explain to me how a team who lead the nation in fewest fouls and averaged the fewest fouls per game somehow put Duke in the double bonus... yet never even saw a 1 and 1 the entire second half?

LongIslandZagFan
04-06-2015, 09:26 PM
Ryan first interview in the locker room is whining about hand checking………nice coach!

I counted 6 moving screens on Plumlee on the second half that went uncalled. Ryan has every right to complain... Wiscy, like everyone else, got jobbed.

JPtheBeasta
04-06-2015, 09:34 PM
The eight guys refered to were the five players and the three non players on the court. At least that's how I interpreted the comment.

There were three block/charge calls in a row that the stripes got wrong in my opinion during a very crucial stretch when Wisconsin was up that helped Duke back into the game. Those so-called 50/50 calls somehow seem to follow some as yet undiscovered statistical law. Some day, when the scientists are able to make a big enough particle accelerator, they will crash a few bosons together and find that the God Particle is actually made up of Krzyzewski particles.

These will show how Shrodinger's Cat is able to exist in both a dead and alive stay simultaneously, unless a Duke player drives straight into it, at which time the cat will be called for a block. This will also help with Einstein's Special-K Theory of Relativity, that a stationary defender is never to be called for a block when impacted by a man in motion, unless the referee is in the Duke reference frame*.

It might also explain why an out of position referee will overrule the ref who is closer and in plain view of the play when the call favors a Duke out of bounds, but I haven't seen the mathematics of this theory formalized yet.


*This is also theoretically what happens in the center of black holes. It should also be noted that, due to the tremendous and overwhelming pull of the force of gravity, light is not allowed to exit a black hole except in cases of quantum tunneling, or when Coach K says it's ok. Analgous to the black hole, referees that stand within Coach K's event horizon have their impartiality sucked out of them, never to escape.

JPtheBeasta
04-06-2015, 09:40 PM
Explain to me how a team who lead the nation in fewest fouls and averaged the fewest fouls per game somehow put Duke in the double bonus... yet never even saw a 1 and 1 the entire second half?

Nice observation. I noticed how Duke had fouls to give at the end there, but didn't realize your other points about Wisconsin.

Zagceo
04-07-2015, 02:42 AM
Explain to me how a team who lead the nation in fewest fouls and averaged the fewest fouls per game somehow put Duke in the double bonus... yet never even saw a 1 and 1 the entire second half?

Wisc couldn't stop the Dook guards from penetrating.

Agressive Dook guards put Wisc in bad defensive positions causing them to foul.

Or .........every game Dook played in the tourney the 3 refs would get together and conspire against Dooks opponent because of some Blue Devil spell by Koach!

Birddog
04-07-2015, 04:13 AM
There were three block/charge calls in a row that the stripes got wrong in my opinion during a very crucial stretch when Wisconsin was up that helped Duke back into the game. Those so-called 50/50 calls somehow seem to follow some as yet undiscovered statistical law. Some day, when the scientists are able to make a big enough particle accelerator, they will crash a few bosons together and find that the God Particle is actually made up of Krzyzewski particles.

These will show how Shrodinger's Cat is able to exist in both a dead and alive stay simultaneously, unless a Duke player drives straight into it, at which time the cat will be called for a block. This will also help with Einstein's Special-K Theory of Relativity, that a stationary defender is never to be called for a block when impacted by a man in motion, unless the referee is in the Duke reference frame*.

It might also explain why an out of position referee will overrule the ref who is closer and in plain view of the play when the call favors a Duke out of bounds, but I haven't seen the mathematics of this theory formalized yet.


*This is also theoretically what happens in the center of black holes. It should also be noted that, due to the tremendous and overwhelming pull of the force of gravity, light is not allowed to exit a black hole except in cases of quantum tunneling, or when Coach K says it's ok. Analgous to the black hole, referees that stand within Coach K's event horizon have their impartiality sucked out of them, never to escape.

I think you're on to something!

LongIslandZagFan
04-07-2015, 05:59 AM
Wisc couldn't stop the Dook guards from penetrating.

Agressive Dook guards put Wisc in bad defensive positions causing them to foul.

Or .........every game Dook played in the tourney the 3 refs would get together and conspire against Dooks opponent because of some Blue Devil spell by Koach!

Maybe they know the NCAA likes the Duke story line and getting Coach K his 5th will insure they get future big games. Maybe Coach K whines so damn much that they just start calling it his way to shut him up. Who knows. Not sure what drives it... but I have seen it too many times. When they get refs who call it straight... they become quite human as a team.

Winslow blatantly stepped out of bounds right in front of the ref... whose job it is to watch that line... no call, end result 2 pts plus chance at 3rd. But hey.. it was all on the up and up.

Hoopaholic
04-07-2015, 06:04 AM
DUKE-A-FIED

LongIslandZagFan
04-07-2015, 06:06 AM
DUKE-A-FIED

You may want to trademark that. :D

Birddog
04-07-2015, 06:33 AM
My memory isn't what it used to be. Could someone please recap all the calls and no-calls that went Wisconsin's way during the last 5 minutes of the game? I'd really appreciate it.

gonzagafan62
04-07-2015, 06:34 AM
My memory isn't what it used to be. Could someone please recap all the calls and no-calls that went Wisconsin's way during the last 5 minutes of the game? I'd really appreciate it.

Here's a doughnut.

http://blogs.kansascity.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/10/28/doughnut.jpg

jazzdelmar
04-07-2015, 06:38 AM
Dook is damn good, Koach is terrific but they get about half dozen key calls a game. The most telling evidence last night: Koach at half saying, we have to get them to foul. Presto, there you are, Koach. Tyus was Kyrie-like, Winslow just another 6-6 athlete, Okafor bulls half the time, Allen a nice surprise; the next Scheyer. Cook a solid player. Other side, Dekker was poo poo, Jackson was TURRIBLE and fat, and Gasser was gassed. Frank and Koenig are nice. Ryan is a crybaby too, he just doesnt get placated in this kind of game.


"In the first half, Wisconsin was called for just two fouls, which prompted several conversations between Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski and the officiating crew of Joe DeRosa, Michael Stephens and Pat Driscoll. The script was flipped in the second half, as Duke was called for just six fouls to Wisconsin's 13."

LongIslandZagFan
04-07-2015, 06:42 AM
Dook is damn good, Koach is terrific but they get about half dozen key calls a game. The most telling evidence last night: Koach at half saying, we have to get them to foul. Presto, there you are, Koach. Tyus was Kyrie-like, Winslow just another 6-6 athlete, Okafor bulls half the time, Allen a nice surprise; the next Scheyer. Cook a solid player. Other side, Dekker was poo poo, Jackson was TURRIBLE and fat, and Gasser was gassed. Frank and Koenig are nice. Ryan is a crybaby too, he just doesnt get placated in this kind of game.

And that is exactly the problem. They are good... but crap like this takes away from that. People aren't dumb... they see it happening... it makes the casual fan root for whomever they are playing.

willandi
04-07-2015, 06:49 AM
I know it won't change this game, or any games in the past, but could Ryan and/or staff put together a small video of the egregious calls, and send them to the NCAA, very quietly, but with the unspoken caveat that they need to address these issues or this video will be released (a pirated copy by anonymous posters) that will taint the win by Duke, and perhaps many other wins, painting the NCAA in a very bad light.

Birddog
04-07-2015, 07:04 AM
Why is it that Koach wasn't considered to be whining at the halftime interview and Ryan was in his post game comments? Ryan merely stated that they had run the whole season and not seen that kind of no-call officiating till the final. Officiating is becoming my single biggest complaint about college BB. They have to figure out how to call games evenly and get rid of all the hand checking/slapping and sumo wrestling.

I think Duke would have a 60% chance of winning if the calls had been made, but i was denied seeing an evenhanded game and legitimate outcome. Here is just one critique.
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/duke-wisconsin-out-of-bounds-call-justise-winslow-ncaa-final

DixieZag
04-07-2015, 07:13 AM
Why is it that Koach wasn't considered to be whining at the halftime interview and Ryan was in his post game comments? Ryan merely stated that they had run the whole season and not seen that kind of no-call officiating till the final. Officiating is becoming my single biggest complaint about college BB. They have to figure out how to call games evenly and get rid of all the hand checking/slapping and sumo wrestling.

I think Duke would have a 60% chance of winning if the calls had been made, but i was denied seeing an evenhanded game and legitimate outcome. Here is just one critique.
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/duke-wisconsin-out-of-bounds-call-justise-winslow-ncaa-final

I don't think the NCAA wants the games called evenly in many situations. Do you honestly think the NCAA (and CBS, to the extent there's a difference) wanted our game called evenly? Or do you think they wanted a Duke-Kentucky final?

There was a thing about "the three refs conspiring before the game..." No, they don't need to. There are a million subtle signals that no one needs spoken aloud - the biggest one being who is considered a "great ref" and gets calls back for games through the Sweet Sixteen, and FF.

We had every blown call go against us
Wisconsin had every blown call go against them

Once is a bug, twice is a feature.

Ekrub
04-07-2015, 07:22 AM
There were three block/charge calls in a row that the stripes got wrong in my opinion during a very crucial stretch when Wisconsin was up that helped Duke back into the game. Those so-called 50/50 calls somehow seem to follow some as yet undiscovered statistical law. Some day, when the scientists are able to make a big enough particle accelerator, they will crash a few bosons together and find that the God Particle is actually made up of Krzyzewski particles.

These will show how Shrodinger's Cat is able to exist in both a dead and alive stay simultaneously, unless a Duke player drives straight into it, at which time the cat will be called for a block. This will also help with Einstein's Special-K Theory of Relativity, that a stationary defender is never to be called for a block when impacted by a man in motion, unless the referee is in the Duke reference frame*.

It might also explain why an out of position referee will overrule the ref who is closer and in plain view of the play when the call favors a Duke out of bounds, but I haven't seen the mathematics of this theory formalized yet.


*This is also theoretically what happens in the center of black holes. It should also be noted that, due to the tremendous and overwhelming pull of the force of gravity, light is not allowed to exit a black hole except in cases of quantum tunneling, or when Coach K says it's ok. Analgous to the black hole, referees that stand within Coach K's event horizon have their impartiality sucked out of them, never to escape.

http://media1.giphy.com/media/p7U1fHij5UxOM/giphy.gif

BJZags
04-07-2015, 07:27 AM
Not sure about refs conspiring, and all that, but the two 50/50 calls that went Dook's way that stood out to me occurred late in the second half on back-to-back possessions, both involving Winslow. On offense he stepped out of bounds under the basket and that wasn't called, I think they scored. Then the next play on defense, he clearly in slow-motion was the final person to touch the ball before it went out of bounds, ball back to Dook.

Birddog
04-07-2015, 07:36 AM
I'm not buying any conspiracy theories, but Koach does seem to have hypnotic powers over the average zebra. Somebody needs to study him and his usage of the power of suggestion, not to be confused with his "badgering". Nice choice of a word there given the circumstances eh? "Dukified by K's badgering"

thegloriousgoateeofKP
04-07-2015, 07:44 AM
Some reading, for your consideration: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/sports/ncaabasketball/01refs.html?_r=0

Huge foul discrepancy in favor of Wisconsin in first half. Refs try to even up. Not necessarily a "Duke conspiracy." If Duke had gotten all the calls in the first half, Wisco probably would've been the beneficiary in the 2nd.

kclubfounder
04-07-2015, 08:43 AM
Not sure about refs conspiring, and all that, but the two 50/50 calls that went Dook's way that stood out to me occurred late in the second half on back-to-back possessions, both involving Winslow. On offense he stepped out of bounds under the basket and that wasn't called, I think they scored. Then the next play on defense, he clearly in slow-motion was the final person to touch the ball before it went out of bounds, ball back to Dook.

Those weren't 50/50 calls. Those were not disputable. In both cases the ball went to Duke when it should have gone to Wisconsin. They were 100/0 calls that the officials got wrong.

kclubfounder
04-07-2015, 08:46 AM
Some reading, for your consideration: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/sports/ncaabasketball/01refs.html?_r=0

Huge foul discrepancy in favor of Wisconsin in first half. Refs try to even up. Not necessarily a "Duke conspiracy." If Duke had gotten all the calls in the first half, Wisco probably would've been the beneficiary in the 2nd.

If officials truly try to "even up" the # of foul calls instead of calling them the way they see them, then teams should play wildly aggressively. I mean, heck, you may as well hack and attack and reach and grab if it isn't going to result in your team getting more fouls than your opponent.

thegloriousgoateeofKP
04-07-2015, 08:54 AM
If officials truly try to "even up" the # of foul calls instead of calling them the way they see them, then teams should play wildly aggressively. I mean, heck, you may as well hack and attack and reach and grab if it isn't going to result in your team getting more fouls than your opponent.

100% agreed. This problem of "evening up" is one of the most consistent, predictable patterns in college basketball. Coaches could really use this to their advanage

CDC84
04-07-2015, 09:08 AM
What's the point of going to the monitor and delaying the game if you can't even get the call right??

Another thought....why is the last 2 minutes of a game anymore important than any other time in a game?? If Duke had beaten Wisconsin 78-77, and that ball had gone out of bounds off of Winslow with 6 minutes left in the first half, the play wouldn't have been any less important than if it has occurred with 50 ticks left in regulation.

The "last two minutes is more important" mentality also leads to officials swallowing their whistle far too often.

zagamatic
04-07-2015, 10:19 AM
I've watched enough basketball this year, not just the Zags, to know that there's little chance that games aren't rigged anymore. It's pretty easy to see if you're looking at it as a truly neutral observer who knows the rules. But, at the same time, they know that they'll never get a court to rule against them based on "judgment calls" because it's basically impossible to do so. And short of having an incriminating paper trail show up, it's never going to change. Nor do the millionaires / billionaires in charge of it want it to change.
This would be the reason I didn't even watch the final 4 or championship game. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Kentucky will end up having to vacate wins, therefore you don't want them winning it the championship. And Duke has probably got the next best ratings out there year in and year out. Plus, why would you give the championship to the little engine that could in Gonzaga unless the ratings were really in the toilet?

CDC84
04-07-2015, 10:48 AM
BTW = last night's national title game had the best overnight ratings of any title game since 1997. Up 33% from last year's title game.

JPtheBeasta
04-07-2015, 10:51 AM
I love a good conspiracy theory, but in this case I think that Koach K has a special skill in working the refs. Some of the things we attribute to intentional bias are hard to prove and could be explained my more subconscious influences and more overt ones like the fans and coaches getting in your face. I say this all not to discount what some have said, but to be able to make the following comments without it seeming like sour grapes or something:

I do find it unconscionable that a referee who is on the wrong side of a play and is screened by the players would overturn a call of the closer ref who is in the right area and has a perfect view of what happened. This happened in the GU vs Duke game.

It is similarly awful that the point of emphasis earlier in the year to try to clean up the hand-checking at the perimeter was ignored more and more as the year went on. To be fair, I think they called it too tight earlier in the year, but the games became a free-for-all.

wiszag
04-07-2015, 10:54 AM
I'm too biased for my opinion to really be relevant but I'm glad a lot of you folks saw the same things that I saw. It really didn't feel like the game was evenly officiated.

BBzag
04-07-2015, 11:34 AM
I've watched enough basketball this year, not just the Zags, to know that there's little chance that games aren't rigged anymore. It's pretty easy to see if you're looking at it as a truly neutral observer who knows the rules. But, at the same time, they know that they'll never get a court to rule against them based on "judgment calls" because it's basically impossible to do so. And short of having an incriminating paper trail show up, it's never going to change. Nor do the millionaires / billionaires in charge of it want it to change.
This would be the reason I didn't even watch the final 4 or championship game. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Kentucky will end up having to vacate wins, therefore you don't want them winning it the championship. And Duke has probably got the next best ratings out there year in and year out. Plus, why would you give the championship to the little engine that could in Gonzaga unless the ratings were really in the toilet?

And this explains U Conn last year because ... why?

MDABE80
04-07-2015, 11:53 AM
Coach K was in the ref's ear like crazy from the end of the 1st half onward. If you get a chnace to see a replay, it's quite obvious. EVRY call he called the ref over to complain. He's been effective doing this over the years.
As far as a "story goes" I'm thinking GU will be the "story" next year. UK will get tons of attention but we are America's team. And we hear it every night on ESPN when our local kid made good.remind us.

Zagceo
04-07-2015, 12:01 PM
The media encourages controversy because it drives emotion and keeps fans engaged a little longer which translates into more revenue.

Dekker shot 2 air balls and was 0-6 from 3 point range …….how many have read stories about this in the loss?

thegloriousgoateeofKP
04-07-2015, 12:37 PM
Coach K was in the ref's ear like crazy from the end of the 1st half onward. If you get a chnace to see a replay, it's quite obvious. EVRY call he called the ref over to complain. He's been effective doing this over the years.
As far as a "story goes" I'm thinking GU will be the "story" next year. UK will get tons of attention but we are America's team. And we hear it every night on ESPN when our local kid made good.remind us.

But that's not why the refs started calling things in Duke's favor. As my above link suggested, the refs merely seek to even up the calls. K might've been hollering, but it likely had little effect.

zagamatic
04-08-2015, 01:13 AM
And this explains U Conn last year because ... why?

Off the top of my head, to bring in more money for the conference after the shuffling of the last few years. Or to try and boost ratings for the ladies national championship the next night because as I recall, it was a men's and women's title for UCONN last year.

For me,it's harder to believe that it's all on the up & up than to believe it's crooked anymore. I'm sure that to some of you that automatically makes me a tinfoil hat wearer, but hey, everyone is going to see what they want to see.

MDABE80
04-08-2015, 01:32 AM
But that's not why the refs started calling things in Duke's favor. As my above link suggested, the refs merely seek to even up the calls. K might've been hollering, but it likely had little effect.

And you know this how? K's got a very big reputation of molding the refs by this exact tactic. Both evening things up and the constant harrassing might be in play. Usually is.

JPtheBeasta
04-08-2015, 05:42 AM
The two ideas are not mutually exclusive...

gonzagafan62
04-08-2015, 05:49 AM
Off the top of my head, to bring in more money for the conference after the shuffling of the last few years. Or to try and boost ratings for the ladies national championship the next night because as I recall, it was a men's and women's title for UCONN last year.

For me,it's harder to believe that it's all on the up & up than to believe it's crooked anymore. I'm sure that to some of you that automatically makes me a tinfoil hat wearer, but hey, everyone is going to see what they want to see.

Lol you conspiracy theorists are funny. I won't totally rule it out, but I'll tell you there's little chance you're right. How bout these smaller schools that get to the final four? How would gonzaga have came out of nowhere to be a national power? Wouldn't the kids say something if the games were rigged? Wouldn't we hear about it now? Yes tree was the big things at Arizona state, boston college but that was over 30 years ago. I have a hard time believing all games are rigged. Do you think the kids would show as much heart on the court after a loss or win in the tournament? I don't think so. Some real gaping holes in your theory

Birddog
04-08-2015, 05:59 AM
The criteria for calling a foul is just nuts. For instance, Okafor can chest bump and buck a defender or barrel down the lane with relative impunity most of the time, but the minute the defenders arms drop from the vertical into a slightly horizontal position, it's a foul. It just doesn't make any sense. The same can be said for the way Duke's and other teams guards play. Allen and Jones bounced around and off defenders like pin balls with no offensive call but did get several and ones. Is that to be lauded as "aggressive guard play" or is it stretching the interpretation of the friggen rules? It's not just Duke that does this, the tactic is widespread. It's just that Duke is the most recent and glaring example. I was shocked that Okafor actually got called for this in the first half. Koach even said in the halftime interview that something had to be done about the unevenness of those calls. I knew then that he would be working overtime on the officials in the 2nd half, and he did, and we all know the result.

LongIslandZagFan
04-08-2015, 06:48 AM
The criteria for calling a foul is just nuts. For instance, Okafor can chest bump and buck a defender or barrel down the lane with relative impunity most of the time, but the minute the defenders arms drop from the vertical into a slightly horizontal position, it's a foul. It just doesn't make any sense. The same can be said for the way Duke's and other teams guards play. Allen and Jones bounced around and off defenders like pin balls with no offensive call but did get several and ones. Is that to be lauded as "aggressive guard play" or is it stretching the interpretation of the friggen rules? It's not just Duke that does this, the tactic is widespread. It's just that Duke is the most recent and glaring example. I was shocked that Okafor actually got called for this in the first half. Koach even said in the halftime interview that something had to be done about the unevenness of those calls. I knew then that he would be working overtime on the officials in the 2nd half, and he did, and we all know the result.

Amen... the call on, I think it was Dekker, but it might have been Koenig, where Tyus Jones leaps up in the air, throws his body to the left AWAY from the hoop into a player borders on stupid. I cannot for the life of me fathom how that is anything other than an offensive foul. Jones, initiates the contact, he does so in a manner that is not a move toward the basket to the point where his left elbow makes contact with the Wisconsin player's face.

willandi
04-08-2015, 07:24 AM
I am not naive enough to think all the bad publicity will change the outcome of any of the tourney games, it just won't happen. I would hope that there would be an emphasis placed on 'defensive position' next year (and beyond), but unless/until we get a national pool of NCAA refs, the calls will still be regional/conference oriented. WCC refs probably would have called many more fouls on Duke, but there is no guarantee of that even...they often called Karno just for being big.

I am glad to see that there has been a national outcry on this. Something needs to be done, I'm just not sure that the NCAA, as it has been weakened by the power conferences, is in any position to institute change. I also don't want to see Congress get involved, they have more important things to be dealing with. I am not sure how it can be resolved. I did expect, at some point in the game, for Wiscy to avail themselves of flying hands, elbows, knees etc., to try to even up the damage.

LongIslandZagFan
04-08-2015, 07:39 AM
I am not naive enough to think all the bad publicity will change the outcome of any of the tourney games, it just won't happen. I would hope that there would be an emphasis placed on 'defensive position' next year (and beyond), but unless/until we get a national pool of NCAA refs, the calls will still be regional/conference oriented. WCC refs probably would have called many more fouls on Duke, but there is no guarantee of that even...they often called Karno just for being big.

I am glad to see that there has been a national outcry on this. Something needs to be done, I'm just not sure that the NCAA, as it has been weakened by the power conferences, is in any position to institute change. I also don't want to see Congress get involved, they have more important things to be dealing with. I am not sure how it can be resolved. I did expect, at some point in the game, for Wiscy to avail themselves of flying hands, elbows, knees etc., to try to even up the damage.

Honestly, that is the best that can be hoped for. National outcry might just be enough to force change if only with the refs kowtowing to Koach. First time I can recall where you see the press get in on the act.

Birddog
04-08-2015, 12:14 PM
This will make you hurl.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/ncaa-head-of-officials-on-controversial-play---we-never-saw-what-everybody-saw-at-home-213242341.html


“I saw it after they had left the monitor, and actually thought about, is it in my prerogative to get up, run over to the table, buzz the buzzer, and tell them to come back and look?” Adams said. “That’s how critical I thought the play was and concluded that this is a job for the guys on the floor. I’ve never done it before. Why would I do it tonight and perhaps change the balance of the game?”

The head of the officials just asked that rhetorical question, can you believe it!

U Zig, I Zag
04-08-2015, 04:44 PM
I know you are all worked up over this. Especially the Winslow off the fingers play. But like I said in the game thread, it's clear the refs don't see the same footage those at home do. Read an article specifying as much today. In that game, the replay the refs have control of isn't the footage we see at home. They need to fix that.

It's not like the refs saw what we saw and said, 'well it's Duke! Dukes ball!'. The realtime was hard to tell from and what they saw they couldn't turn it back.