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View Full Version : Is Kevin Pangos on Gonzaga Basketball's MOUNT RUSHMORE?



gozagswoohoo
03-31-2015, 01:09 PM
I always hated thinking about the day when we would see Kevin play his final game in a zags uniform, but it also got me thinking. Did Kevin play himself onto the Gonzaga basketball Mount Rushmore? What do you guys think?


http://i.imgur.com/Yi9c1L6.png

thegloriousgoateeofKP
03-31-2015, 01:12 PM
Hahaha yes, absolutely he is.

I'd go: Kevin, Ammo, Turiaf, Calvary

gonzagafan62
03-31-2015, 01:14 PM
My Mount Rushmore:

Frank Burgess
John Stockton
Adam Morrison
Kevin Pangos

Guys who just missed out:

Matt Santangelo
Dan Dickau

Mount Rushmore of Personalities:

Ronny Turiaf
Robert Sacre
Richard Fox
Bing Crosby

gozagswoohoo
03-31-2015, 01:14 PM
It is nearly impossible to try and pick just 4 zags to put up there.....ugh...So many incredible and impossible choices.

Martin Centre Mad Man
03-31-2015, 01:14 PM
You need a Stockton - pick your favorite, and a Vandersloot.

DixieZag
03-31-2015, 01:19 PM
I think Pangos belongs - but Pangos should go nowhere without Gary pictured alongside, almost as "one entity."

I think Stockton, Burgess, Dickau, Morrison, Pangos-Bell, Vandersloot, and Ronny (b/c Ronny should be left off nothing positive about GU) - I know that is more than four, but, really, FDR should be added to the real Rushmore (Depression and WWII) - so, I feel comfortable adding additional numbers. :)

Kelly, as another All-American, has great qualifications, too. Maybe a big statue of Kelly right at the entrance.

jazzdelmar
03-31-2015, 01:22 PM
No. Not even the POINT guard Rushmore, which is John, Matt, DD and Blake.

gonzagafan62
03-31-2015, 01:26 PM
No. Not even the guard Rushmore, which is John, Matt, DD and Blake.

Dan Dickau made it pretty close for me, but I just don't see how you can't have pangos in the discussion when his stats and tournament success outweigh everyone

#1 in games played
#1 in career wins
#5 in career points
#2 in career steals
#5 in career assists
#8 in career FGs made
#11 in career Free Throws made
#1 in career 3's made

I guess you can make a case on the eye test, which is something opinionated. And I cannot argue. No real argument from me, when you have all those great names you mentioned jazz.

seacatfan
03-31-2015, 01:38 PM
Don't even know how to answer the question. As noted by others very hard to pick just four. Glad to see Vandersloot get mentioned, she was phenomenal!

Ezag
03-31-2015, 01:41 PM
Burgess, Stockton, Morrison, Bol Kong

TexasZagFan
03-31-2015, 01:48 PM
Burgess, Stockton, Morrison, Bol Kong

What? No Biggs McGee? lol

Sorry, I limit Mt. Rushmore to those that were here four years and graduated. That takes out Ammo, Dickau, Olynyk, and Micah Downs.

Burgess, Stockton, Pangos, and Bouldin. Sorry Blake...

jazzdelmar
03-31-2015, 01:50 PM
What? No Biggs McGee? lol

Sorry, I limit Mt. Rushmore to those that were here four years and graduated. That takes out Ammo, Dickau, Olynyk, and Micah Downs.

Burgess, Stockton, Pangos, and Bouldin. Sorry Blake...


Huh? Pretty arbitrary, eh?

sittingon50
03-31-2015, 02:01 PM
What? No Biggs McGee? lol

Sorry, I limit Mt. Rushmore to those that were here four years and graduated. That takes out Ammo, Dickau, Olynyk, and Micah Downs.

Burgess, Stockton, Pangos, and Bouldin. Sorry Blake...

Agree with you TZF. However, Kelly WAS here 4 years & graduated, 1st team Academic AA.

TexasZagFan
03-31-2015, 02:22 PM
Agree with you TZF. However, Kelly WAS here 4 years & graduated, 1st team Academic AA.

You are correct, 50. Tough call, great young man, great Zag. I should have been specific, i.e. playing for four years. Ammo and Kelly made the right move for themselves, leaving with one year of eligibility.

If Karno comes back, he'd have the potential to bust through the door, too. All Academic team in WCC this year. An amazing feat for any foreign student-athlete.

Ezag
03-31-2015, 02:24 PM
I stand by Kong!

mgadfly
03-31-2015, 02:27 PM
Vandersloot, Stockton, Pangos, and then I'm not sure who:

Ronny
Olynyk
Harris
Morrison
Casey
Blake
Santangelo
Dickau

A bunch for the fourth spot. I think a face on a mountain should go to a guy like Ronny who could have left early but stayed for the team. A guy whose heart and personality are perfectly in sync with what it means to be a Zag. A player who helped us open up the gates to international recruits. So I'd probably put him up there as the last one. He meant a ton to this program as a player and a person.

cggonzaga
03-31-2015, 03:02 PM
Even though Pangos is one of my favorite Zags ever, he does not make the Rushmore of Zags imo. Honestly, he barely makes the top 5 point guards we've had. I would definitely have Stockton, Santangelo, Dickau and Stepp ahead of Kevin. That shouldn't take a thing away from his career though. He is definitely an all-timer.

kclubfounder
03-31-2015, 03:13 PM
Some may think Stockton doesn't deserve in because they believe he made his name in the NBA, and not at GU. But please remember, he was invited to try out for the 1984 Olympic team after his senior year, and along with Charles Barkley, was in the final cut. Bobby Knight took his freshman Bobby Alford instead - a move that has made it very hard for me to respect Knight ever since.

Bottom line: John Stockton was a tremendous college player in addition to being arguably the best pure point guard to ever play in the NBA. If he isn't on the Mt. Rushmore of GU Hoops then I guess we need to find a replacement for George Washington on the actual mountain.

DixieZag
03-31-2015, 03:20 PM
Obviously this is so very hard to make a definitive case for any limited number of players.

And, at the risk of sounding like I am in some way dissin' Santangelo and Stepp, I wonder why some think those 2 are clearly above Kevin. Kevin took the team to over 30 wins on average, he was in the top category in points, and took the team to the E8 - seems to me that his career in total eclipses those others.

If Rushmore is made up of "ultimate Zags" - in my mind, the quintessential standard bearer for what it means to be a Zag is Ronny.

Jazz? Though reasonable fans can disagree, I knew which side you would fall on. :) You play your role around here like a maestro.

MickMick
03-31-2015, 03:32 PM
Point guard My Rushmore..........yes.

Martin Centre Mad Man
03-31-2015, 03:59 PM
The discussion starts and ends with the most accomplished former player in school history.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Burgess

jazzdelmar
03-31-2015, 04:04 PM
M
Obviously this is so very hard to make a definitive case for any limited number of players.

And, at the risk of sounding like I am in some way dissin' Santangelo and Stepp, I wonder why some think those 2 are clearly above Kevin. Kevin took the team to over 30 wins on average, he was in the top category in points, and took the team to the E8 - seems to me that his career in total eclipses those others.

If Rushmore is made up of "ultimate Zags" - in my mind, the quintessential standard bearer for what it means to be a Zag is Ronny.

Jazz? Though reasonable fans can disagree, I knew which side you would fall on. :) You play your role around here like a maestro.

Try comparing his supporting cast w the others. KP didn't win all those games by himself. Compare the bigs especially. How many were elite vs bigs who played w the others? Sacre, KO, Harris, Karno, Dower, KW, the Bonus for starters.

bartruff1
03-31-2015, 04:06 PM
Record Book

MDABE80
03-31-2015, 04:46 PM
Burgess was one of the nicest, humble guys. I used to ride my bike around campus back then. Always peeked in the Russell theater to see if he was there and hopefully would remember me.....and he always did. SO I shagged balls..........even those that rolled out on boone because the gym was always so hot. the doors were left open. No fans in the place......just nothing. Such a nice man though. I'll never forget how nice he was to a small kid.

Once and Future Zag
03-31-2015, 05:07 PM
Burgess, Stockton, Pangos, Vandersloot

No offense intended to anyone else.

thegloriousgoateeofKP
03-31-2015, 05:08 PM
Some may think Stockton doesn't deserve in because they believe he made his name in the NBA, and not at GU. But please remember, he was invited to try out for the 1984 Olympic team after his senior year, and along with Charles Barkley, was in the final cut. Bobby Knight took his freshman Bobby Alford instead - a move that has made it very hard for me to respect Knight ever since.

Bottom line: John Stockton was a tremendous college player in addition to being arguably the best pure point guard to ever play in the NBA. If he isn't on the Mt. Rushmore of GU Hoops then I guess we need to find a replacement for George Washington on the actual mountain.

Certainly a good point, but let me ask honestly: just how transcendent was he at GU? How popular did he become in Spokane? Did he "put the program on the map?" Not questioning his greatness, but curious. Because they never made the Tournament with him, and didn't for a long time after him. Maybe he was the one bright spot on an otherwise terrible team. If that's the case, how'd we get him to come here?

JokerZag
03-31-2015, 05:10 PM
Great topic.
Burgess. Stats speak for themselves. It's what he did afterwards that puts him in stone for me
Stockton. Hometown kid. Greatest zag NBA career
Morrison. Hometown kid. Put the program in the national memory for a generation. I'd reckon the highest draft pick we'll ever see.
4th spot stays open

kclubfounder
03-31-2015, 05:37 PM
Certainly a good point, but let me ask honestly: just how transcendent was he at GU? How popular did he become in Spokane? Did he "put the program on the map?" Not questioning his greatness, but curious. Because they never made the Tournament with him, and didn't for a long time after him. Maybe he was the one bright spot on an otherwise terrible team. If that's the case, how'd we get him to come here?

He didn't put the program on the map while he was at Gonzaga. But if he wasn't on the team I can personally guaranty you that the Kennel Club would never have been started. We went into the season with a great team, then the 2nd and 3rd best players had season ending injuries (Bryce McPhee and Jason Van Nort - I apologize if I misspelled either name). Still, despite losing the 2nd and 3rd best players, we were incredibly competitive thanks to one man. That season the Kennel Club starts. And without Stockton it would NOT have started. I promise you.

Then Gonzaga becomes a bit of a household name for anyone who is a basketball fan because the man who ends up setting the NBA's all time assists AND steals records hails from the school. So it gets mentioned over and over again.

Combine the origin of the Kennel Club with the publicity the school generated thanks to his NBA career, and add in what a fantastic collegiate career he had as an individual, and I rest my case.

thegloriousgoateeofKP
03-31-2015, 05:41 PM
He didn't put the program on the map while he was at Gonzaga. But if he wasn't on the team I can personally guaranty you that the Kennel Club would never have been started. We went into the season with a great team, then the 2nd and 3rd best players had season ending injuries (Bryce McPhee and Jason Van Nort - I apologize if I misspelled either name). Still, despite losing the 2nd and 3rd best players, we were incredibly competitive thanks to one man. That season the Kennel Club starts. And without Stockton it would NOT have started. I promise you.

Then Gonzaga becomes a bit of a household name for anyone who is a basketball fan because the man who ends up setting the NBA's all time assists AND steals records hails from the school. So it gets mentioned over and over again.

Combine the origin of the Kennel Club with the publicity the school generated thanks to his NBA career, and add in what a fantastic collegiate career he had as an individual, and I rest my case.

Thank you for the free history lesson! Judging by your name, it sounds like you might know a thing or two about how the Kennel Club got started :D

McZag
03-31-2015, 06:34 PM
Stay with me:

First Mountain
Burgess
Stockton
Calvary
Karnowski

Second Mountain
Pangos
Jeff Brown
Santangelo
Morrison

3rd Mountain
Olynyk
Frahm
John Rillie
Dan Dickau

gonzagafan62
03-31-2015, 07:00 PM
I love that someone mentioned Jeff brown. While I wouldn't necessarily put him in the mt Rushmore or anything (for me) dude was a hell of a player and quite the forgotten commodity. He deserves done love. The old guys can tell you all about him. Give me more Jeff brown.

SunDevilGolfZag
03-31-2015, 07:18 PM
Pangos is a yes with Burgess, Morrison and Stockton

Ajay
03-31-2015, 07:21 PM
Burgess was such a force on the court. He worked at the gas station at Sharp and Hamilton. Yes he was so humble and we kids in the neighborhood were in awe!

ZAG 4 LIFE
03-31-2015, 07:30 PM
Right on kcclubfounder...
This is exactly right... as I have mentioned a couple of times on my rare posts here, I was on the GU basketball coaching staff
for a couple of years in the 80's, the first of which was John Houston Stockton's MAGICAL senior season in 1983-84.
When we lost McPhee and Van Nort, John had to really change his game. He had to look to score a lot more to give us a chance
to win, with so much firepower injured and on the bench. (I believe to this day that John's increased scoring numbers made him a
first round draft pick - Had those two guys been healthy, they would have been the #1 and #2 scorers on a very good Zag team)

That depleted team still went 17-11, and 6 of those 11 losses were by 2 points or less - three on buzzer
beaters from the parking lot that I can still see in my mind's eye.
Winkler from WSU from 26' at Spokane Coliseum, lose 73-72; Roberston from SMC from about 35' to beat us 52-51;
Harold Heeling at SCU to beat us 56-55.

Here is what still amazes me to this day about that season... With a ton of pressure on him every game,
(John was the first, second and third priority on every team's scouting report), constant double teams, etc.
Stockton still increased his scoring average to about 21 ppg, more than 7 apg, and 4 spg.
And... as impressive as those numbers are/were -
how about his 57.7% field goal percentage for the year? Unbelievable really.

kcclubfounder is right... Stockton was THE reason to come out to support The Zags back then.

I have missed very few Zag games since I left GU in '85... and I am a huge fan of so many of the great players that have come along
since #12 played at GU... but honestly... there is no question that Stockton is the best player that I have ever seen at Gonzaga.

And since this thread is about the G.U. Mt. Rushmore, I'll play. For me... It is Burgess, Stockton and Vandersloot, and the 4th
face to be carved into the mountain... I'm not sure I can pick just one more... but I would probably select a player from this list...
all of them 4 year Zags: Pangos, Stepp, Calvary, Turiaf.

sittingon50
03-31-2015, 07:54 PM
Great topic.
Burgess. Stats speak for themselves. It's what he did afterwards that puts him in stone for me
Stockton. Hometown kid. Greatest zag NBA career
Morrison. Hometown kid. Put the program in the national memory for a generation. I'd reckon the highest draft pick we'll ever see.
4th spot stays open

If you have an open spot it's gotta' be 'Sloot. 2000+ pts, 1000+ Assists; only NCAA player (man or woman) to accomplish that feat. She might be #1.

gonzagafan62
03-31-2015, 08:16 PM
Right on kcclubfounder...
This is exactly right... as I have mentioned a couple of times on my rare posts here, I was on the GU basketball coaching staff
for a couple of years in the 80's, the first of which was John Houston Stockton's MAGICAL senior season in 1983-84.
When we lost McPhee and Van Nort, John had to really change his game. He had to look to score a lot more to give us a chance
to win, with so much firepower injured and on the bench. (I believe to this day that John's increased scoring numbers made him a
first round draft pick - Had those two guys been healthy, they would have been the #1 and #2 scorers on a very good Zag team)

That depleted team still went 17-11, and 6 of those 11 losses were by 2 points or less - three on buzzer
beaters from the parking lot that I can still see in my mind's eye.
Winkler from WSU from 26' at Spokane Coliseum, lose 73-72; Roberston from SMC from about 35' to beat us 52-51;
Harold Heeling at SCU to beat us 56-55.

Here is what still amazes me to this day about that season... With a ton of pressure on him every game,
(John was the first, second and third priority on every team's scouting report), constant double teams, etc.
Stockton still increased his scoring average to about 21 ppg, more than 7 apg, and 4 spg.
And... as impressive as those numbers are/were -
how about his 57.7% field goal percentage for the year? Unbelievable really.

kcclubfounder is right... Stockton was THE reason to come out to support The Zags back then.

I have missed very few Zag games since I left GU in '85... and I am a huge fan of so many of the great players that have come along
since #12 played at GU... but honestly... there is no question that Stockton is the best player that I have ever seen at Gonzaga.

And since this thread is about the G.U. Mt. Rushmore, I'll play. For me... It is Burgess, Stockton and Vandersloot, and the 4th
face to be carved into the mountain... I'm not sure I can pick just one more... but I would probably select a player from this list...
all of them 4 year Zags: Pangos, Stepp, Calvary, Turiaf.
Wow what an amazing post with such good info!!!!! Thanks for posting this. I enjoy the old stories! Thanks so much!!!!

jazzdelmar
03-31-2015, 08:36 PM
Try it this way. Zags have advanced to the FF. You can have any GU player past or present at the height of his college career start at point guard. Who do you pick?

Malastein
04-01-2015, 12:01 AM
I always hated thinking about the day when we would see Kevin play his final game in a zags uniform, but it also got me thinking. Did Kevin play himself onto the Gonzaga basketball Mount Rushmore? What do you guys think?



Simply, no. Final four was necessary, and the Elite Eight game cemented him as a slot below.

ZagaZags
04-01-2015, 12:08 AM
Would you ever want a 5th head on Mount Rushmore?

:roll:

ZagaZags
04-01-2015, 12:23 AM
Casey Calvary
Kevin Pangos
Matt Santangelo
Ronny Turiaf

ZagaZags
04-01-2015, 12:34 AM
This is my Mount Flushmore.

http://mentalfloss.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_640x430/public/toilet_flushing_5.jpg

Bol Kong

Theo Davis

Keegan Hyland

G.J. Vilarino

gonzagafan62
04-01-2015, 04:56 AM
Try it this way. Zags have advanced to the FF. You can have any GU player past or present at the height of his college career start at point guard. Who do you pick?

I'd take dickau immediately.

jazzdelmar
04-01-2015, 05:18 AM
I'd take dickau immediately.

TYVM!

gozagswoohoo
04-01-2015, 05:57 AM
Try it this way. Zags have advanced to the FF. You can have any GU player past or present at the height of his college career start at point guard. Who do you pick?

Wow, that is a fun question. Yikes.

I would probably have to go Dickau also.

gozagswoohoo
04-01-2015, 05:57 AM
Right on kcclubfounder...
This is exactly right... as I have mentioned a couple of times on my rare posts here, I was on the GU basketball coaching staff
for a couple of years in the 80's, the first of which was John Houston Stockton's MAGICAL senior season in 1983-84.
When we lost McPhee and Van Nort, John had to really change his game. He had to look to score a lot more to give us a chance
to win, with so much firepower injured and on the bench. (I believe to this day that John's increased scoring numbers made him a
first round draft pick - Had those two guys been healthy, they would have been the #1 and #2 scorers on a very good Zag team)

That depleted team still went 17-11, and 6 of those 11 losses were by 2 points or less - three on buzzer
beaters from the parking lot that I can still see in my mind's eye.
Winkler from WSU from 26' at Spokane Coliseum, lose 73-72; Roberston from SMC from about 35' to beat us 52-51;
Harold Heeling at SCU to beat us 56-55.

Here is what still amazes me to this day about that season... With a ton of pressure on him every game,
(John was the first, second and third priority on every team's scouting report), constant double teams, etc.
Stockton still increased his scoring average to about 21 ppg, more than 7 apg, and 4 spg.
And... as impressive as those numbers are/were -
how about his 57.7% field goal percentage for the year? Unbelievable really.

kcclubfounder is right... Stockton was THE reason to come out to support The Zags back then.

I have missed very few Zag games since I left GU in '85... and I am a huge fan of so many of the great players that have come along
since #12 played at GU... but honestly... there is no question that Stockton is the best player that I have ever seen at Gonzaga.

And since this thread is about the G.U. Mt. Rushmore, I'll play. For me... It is Burgess, Stockton and Vandersloot, and the 4th
face to be carved into the mountain... I'm not sure I can pick just one more... but I would probably select a player from this list...
all of them 4 year Zags: Pangos, Stepp, Calvary, Turiaf.

GREAT POST! Thanks for sharing.

webspinnre
04-01-2015, 06:52 AM
Try it this way. Zags have advanced to the FF. You can have any GU player past or present at the height of his college career start at point guard. Who do you pick?

I think this is so obviously Stockton, that while I love Dickau, there's no way I'm taking him over Stockton.

Also, Matt Santangelo was a great Zag, but head to head against Pangos, I'm taking Pangos every day.

WallaWallaZag
04-01-2015, 07:52 AM
I think this is so obviously Stockton, that while I love Dickau, there's no way I'm taking him over Stockton.

so hard to compare across generations and never saw stockton in college, but if the nba has any correlation at all than stockton > dickau.

Zagceo
04-01-2015, 08:58 AM
so hard to compare across generations and never saw stockton in college, but if the nba has any correlation at all than stockton > dickau.

Not just hard but impossible to compare.

Stockton was good in college. The team included a player called up from the intramural leagues.

JS senior year 83-84 schedule included Carroll,Central,Eastern, Idaho,Idaho State, Boise State, Montana State, Robert Morris, Whitworth, Weber State, WSUx2, Oregon zags had 17-11 record

DD Senior year 02-03 schedule included Utah, Indiana, Kentucky, North Carolina State, Tulsa, Georgia, St Joe's, Stanford, Cincinnati, Arizona Zags had 24-9 record

If you take 22 year old JS and 22 year old DD into todays Final Four competition………….I'll take #13 Josh ;)

TheGonzagaFactor
04-01-2015, 09:25 AM
Yes. Pangos, Morrison, and the remaining two are debateable.

Reborn
04-01-2015, 10:34 AM
I don't see how you can leave Pangos out. He just QB'd one of the two best All-Time Gonzaga teams. I also believe that Kevin Pangos stands for everything that Gonzaga Basketball stands for. What he did two years ago (playing with turf toe) was simply incredible. I would like to see a poll taken on this one because there are so many great Gonzaga players from our past.

Some facts about Kevin Pangos.

Career wins: #1
Career Three Point Shots made #1
Career Steals #2, and some insist he can't play D
Career Scoring, #5
Career Assists, #5

Here are my five players that I'd put on Mt Rushmore

At center: Kelly Olynyk
At forward: Casey Calvary
At one Wing: Adam Morrison
At one guard Kevin Pangos
At the other Dan Dickau

Pangos barely edges out Blake Stepp (imo). His stats back up my opinion also.

Why Casey Calvary? He made the shot that put Gonzaga on the National map. And, imo he's the best power forward we've ever had. Finally, he too stands for everything that I believe is Gonzaga basketball.

SunDevilGolfZag
04-01-2015, 11:33 AM
Try it this way. Zags have advanced to the FF. You can have any GU player past or present at the height of his college career start at point guard. Who do you pick?

I would take Pargo because of his toughness and athleticism needed for that venue. He goes down as one of my favorite Zags but not "Rushmorian"

jazzdelmar
04-01-2015, 11:35 AM
I don't see how you can leave Pangos out. He just QB'd one of the two best All-Time Gonzaga teams. I also believe that Kevin Pangos stands for everything that Gonzaga Basketball stands for. What he did two years ago (playing with turf toe) was simply incredible. I would like to see a poll taken on this one because there are so many great Gonzaga players from our past.

Some facts about Kevin Pangos.

Career wins: #1
Career Three Point Shots made #1
Career Steals #2, and some insist he can't play D
Career Scoring, #5
Career Assists, #5

Here are my five players that I'd put on Mt Rushmore

At center: Kelly Olynyk
At forward: Casey Calvary
At one Wing: Adam Morrison
At one guard Kevin Pangos
At the other Dan Dickau

Pangos barely edges out Blake Stepp (imo). His stats back up my opinion also.

Why Casey Calvary? He made the shot that put Gonzaga on the National map. And, imo he's the best power forward we've ever had. Finally, he too stands for everything that I believe is Gonzaga basketball.

With one change, Richie for Kevin, that's my all time GU team by position, Bornster.

Reborn
04-01-2015, 12:55 PM
With one change, Richie for Kevin, that's my all time GU team by position, Bornster.

Gocha> I really had to consider Richie Frahm too. I was surprised more didn't. I thought Frahm was the greatest all-time shooter at Gonzaga, but then I see Kevin at the top of that 3 pt shooting list. A surprise maybe. But Kevin could definitely shoot. The unfortunate thing about Kevin is at times he could not hit from the outside, and it did keep us from the Final 4. We all know that to win in March the guards need to step up and shoot. That did not happen in the Regional play. OUr guarda put up nothing but dudds in both games. Frahm definitely shot well in March.

Like I say, there are soooo many great players and on one is right and no one is wrong. That's why I'd like to see a poll. Frahm definitely qualifies at shooting guard. And Stepp qualifies at the point. For me I take Pangos over them.

jazzdelmar
04-01-2015, 01:06 PM
Gocha> I really had to consider Richie Frahm too. I was surprised more didn't. I thought Frahm was the greatest all-time shooter at Gonzaga, but then I see Kevin at the top of that 3 pt shooting list. A surprise maybe. But Kevin could definitely shoot. The unfortunate thing about Kevin is at times he could not hit from the outside, and it did keep us from the Final 4. We all know that to win in March the guards need to step up and shoot. That did not happen in the Regional play. OUr guarda put up nothing but dudds in both games. Frahm definitely shot well in March.

Like I say, there are soooo many great players and on one is right and no one is wrong. That's why I'd like to see a poll. Frahm definitely qualifies at shooting guard. And Stepp qualifies at the point. For me I take Pangos over them.

Richie had what 3 to 5 inches on KP and was far more athletic. Don't think KP will ever score 36 in an NBA game. A great running mate for DDD on my all time team.

kclubfounder
04-01-2015, 07:04 PM
Not just hard but impossible to compare.

Stockton was good in college. The team included a player called up from the intramural leagues.

JS senior year 83-84 schedule included Carroll,Central,Eastern, Idaho,Idaho State, Boise State, Montana State, Robert Morris, Whitworth, Weber State, WSUx2, Oregon zags had 17-11 record

DD Senior year 02-03 schedule included Utah, Indiana, Kentucky, North Carolina State, Tulsa, Georgia, St Joe's, Stanford, Cincinnati, Arizona Zags had 24-9 record

If you take 22 year old JS and 22 year old DD into todays Final Four competition………….I'll take #13 Josh ;)

Although I love the fact you are a Zag, I'm not particularly impressed with your deductive reasoning skills.

Still, GO ZAGS!!!!!

Malastein
04-01-2015, 08:17 PM
Pangos has always been a much better shooter at home, and his final game was extremely disappointing since he put up next to no points and assists. The roster was loaded, which is why the team advanced. If he had played well and they had advanced, then he would have had to have been on. No way is he above Morrison, Stockton, Turiaf, Calvary, Stepp, Dickau, Santangelo, Bouldin, Frahm, Burgess, or Santangelo.

He had an amazing career, but his stats are more a reflection of the rosters he's played on rather than greatness above the other names listed. I can't really recall postseason success moments featuring Pangos as the guy making the big play.

WallaWallaZag
04-02-2015, 05:15 AM
imo, pangos only played at a mt.rushmore level during the first part of his junior season before he got hurt...i realize that he deferred and became more of a facilitator this year, but while it has often been deemed "for the good of the team" -- i'm not sure that really was the case because pangos lost the mojo necessary to take over a game as a result...it's not something you can just turn on and off...the only time i remember him playing at that level this year was probably in the very beginning against smu and the first wcc game @ byu.

jazzdelmar
04-02-2015, 07:07 AM
Pangos has always been a much better shooter at home, and his final game was extremely disappointing since he put up next to no points and assists. The roster was loaded, which is why the team advanced. If he had played well and they had advanced, then he would have had to have been on. No way is he above Morrison, Stockton, Turiaf, Calvary, Stepp, Dickau, Santangelo, Bouldin, Frahm, Burgess, or Santangelo.

He had an amazing career, but his stats are more a reflection of the rosters he's played on rather than greatness above the other names listed. I can't really recall postseason success moments featuring Pangos as the guy making the big play.


Agree. Played with no fewer than six nba bigs.

azzagfan
04-03-2015, 09:41 PM
No. Not even the POINT guard Rushmore, which is John, Matt, DD and Blake.

Jazz, I typically like the devil's advocate role you play on the board, but as PGs go in GU history, I'd take Pangos over all those guys when they were in college. I love those guys, but we'll look back on the Pangos era with those same rose-colored glasses in a decade.

Robzagnut
04-03-2015, 10:30 PM
Burgess? - Sorry, but more than one member on this forum has to be alive and able to say they saw him play. Otherwise, we're at The Don level who swears San Fran is still the best because back during WWII when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor some guy named Russell and his sidekick Jones won a championship or two.

VanderSloot? - Sorry, but this topic says 'Men's Basketball' so she can be on her own Miss Rushmore monument over in their own forum.


1. Stockton - unanimous selection. Anyone who says otherwise ain't paying attention.

2. Cavalry - who is the only GU guy who has gone to 3 Sweet 16s? And his tip-in put GU in the E8. If you have to be in a dark alley fight name another GU player you would pick over Casey? Mean, nasty and a winner throughout his core.

3. Ammo - the Rockstar. The coolest year ever. Grabbed the attention of the whole country and we had front and center seats for the whole thing. Opponents stadiums were filled and in awe, because he put on a show. Was that fun or what?

4. Take your pick - give me the 3 guys above and it doesn't matter who is the fourth guy.

jazzdelmar
04-04-2015, 03:59 AM
Jazz, I typically like the devil's advocate role you play on the board, but as PGs go in GU history, I'd take Pangos over all those guys when they were in college. I love those guys, but we'll look back on the Pangos era with those same rose-colored glasses in a decade.

Disagree as stated. KPs supporting cast besides Bell was a bevy of future NBA bigs vs what my guys had to work with. Just one.

ZagLawGrad
04-04-2015, 01:18 PM
KP had 4 years, was a likeable player and person. But not the quality of several before him. Should have a shot at a Euro career.

MickMick
04-04-2015, 01:45 PM
Disagree as stated. KPs supporting cast besides Bell was a bevy of future NBA bigs vs what my guys had to work with. Just one.

So you suggest Goodson would put up a similar assist/turnover ratio playing with those big men? Any old guy could look good playing with a front court like that?

I suggest the opposite. Pangos brought out the best in those big guys. They were good because he consistently put them into a position for success. Similar to the NFL, Tom Brady made a lot of wide receivers look much better than they really were. Same with Peyton Manning.


I'm not talking about scoring or defense here. I'm talking about the point guard running the team. Pangos was the best at setting up the big men in the Mark Few era. Bouldin was excellent at this as well but had to do it from a skewed position because of the unique offensive positioning of Goodson. Both Pangos and Bouldin were excellent at post entry passes. Bouldin better at finding people in transition (made some ridiculous passes on the break, probably due to his height/vision/ability to throw over the top and his arm strength to throw long range bullets), Pangos better in the half court game, dropping dimes inside.

David Stockton could make some jaw dropping passes, but he took many risks that occasionally ended up in turnovers. He tried to fit the ball into some very tight windows.

zags422
04-04-2015, 01:56 PM
I think we win that Duke game with Derek Raivio at PG. Pangos might be one of my top 2 favorite point guards, but I don't think he was even top 5 to go along with some previous posters. This years team was absolutely loaded...should have beat a frosh duke team.

bballbeachbum
04-04-2015, 02:01 PM
So you suggest Goodson would put up similar assist/turnover ratio playing with those big men? Any old guy could look good playing with a front court like that?

I suggest the opposite. Pangos brought out the best in those big guys. They were good because he consistently put them into a position for success.


I'm not talking about scoring or defense here. I'm talking about the point guard running the team. Pangos was the best at setting up the big men in the Mark Few era.

good post, agree. another big compliment to his point guard game to me was how Pangos seemed to adjust his game to the strengths of the players around him to promote the team's strengths whatever they were; the Zag game plans evolved from centered around him to centered around 2-3 other players before him, and he did it no problem and the team totally responded.

in any event doesn't seem accurate to me to assess Kevin's overall impact or Mt. Rushmorean worthiness based on the relative greatness of his teammates unless it's in the positive since he stirred everyone's drink.

as for the OP, I have no idea, could only comment on what I've seen since '99, but that's not the question

jazzdelmar
04-04-2015, 02:05 PM
So you suggest Goodson would put up a similar assist/turnover ratio playing with those big men? Any old guy could look good playing with a front court like that?

I suggest the opposite. Pangos brought out the best in those big guys. They were good because he consistently put them into a position for success. Similar to the NFL, Tom Brady made a lot of wide receivers look much better than they really were. Same with Peyton Manning.


I'm not talking about scoring or defense here. I'm talking about the point guard running the team. Pangos was the best at setting up the big men in the Mark Few era. Bouldin was excellent at this as well but had to do it from a skewed position because of the unique offensive positioning of Goodson. Both Pangos and Bouldin were excellent at post entry passes. Bouldin better at finding people in transition (made some ridiculous passes on the break, probably due to his height/vision/ability to throw over the top and his arm strength to throw long range bullets), Pangos better in the half court game, dropping dimes inside.

Absurd. Goodson doesn't belong on same planet as KP. I disagree if you're saying Pangos was instrumental in the Overall development of sacre, KO, Harris, KArno, Sabonis and Kw. He did a nice job but isn't among the top four PGs at GU. Pargo and DR were not favorites of mine but I won't disagree if they are also put ahead of KP.

Zagtana
04-04-2015, 02:52 PM
Here is one
Burgess? - Sorry, but more than one member on this forum has to be alive and able to say they saw him play. Otherwise, we're at The Don level who swears San Fran is still the best because back during WWII when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor some guy named Russell and his sidekick Jones won a championship or two.

VanderSloot? - Sorry, but this topic says 'Men's Basketball' so she can be on her own Miss Rushmore monument over in their own forum.


1. Stockton - unanimous selection. Anyone who says otherwise ain't paying attention.

2. Cavalry - who is the only GU guy who has gone to 3 Sweet 16s? And his tip-in put GU in the E8. If you have to be in a dark alley fight name another GU player you would pick over Casey? Mean, nasty and a winner throughout his core.

3. Ammo - the Rockstar. The coolest year ever. Grabbed the attention of the whole country and we had front and center seats for the whole thing. Opponents stadiums were filled and in awe, because he put on a show. Was that fun or what?

4. Take your pick - give me the 3 guys above and it doesn't matter who is the fourth guy.

MJ777
04-05-2015, 10:29 PM
I would put Stockton, Morrison, Casey, and Frahm on top of Mt Karnowski (the mountain masquerading as a man).

bartruff1
04-06-2015, 06:34 AM
I saw Burgess play for three seasons...there is a reason his number is up there...it isn't coming down.


You are all welcome to your opinions and I won't characterize some of them.... but I suspect Kevin in on Few's Mount Rushmore and that is all that matters.

Ekrub
04-06-2015, 06:39 AM
Stockton, Morrison, dickau, calvary