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LionKid
03-30-2015, 10:04 AM
First off, let me say I am not a Zags fan, but I do follow the team closely because I live in the Seattle area.

This may sound harsh, but you guys will never make a final four as long as you play in that small conference known as the WCC. You guys play scrubs for 3 months straight and then get thrown in the grinder, in March. I knew you guys would play the first 30-35 minutes well, but once the game got near the end, I knew Duke would make the plays and you guys wouldn't. Duke has been in these big game situations almost every week, you guys had probably played one or two close games on a big stage since the start of 2015. I'm well aware that you Gonzaga challenged themselves in the non-conference, but that was over 3 months ago. But from January to March, Duke is playing top notch opponents on a weekly basis, whereas Gonzaga is playing the Santa Clara's and San Francisco.

You guys had a terrific team, and as talented as any other team in the nation (with the exception of Kentucky), but you guys will always be one step behind of the power conference teams in terms of readiness and preperation. I thought a prime example was Pangos. He looked like he hadn't seen a guard like Quinn Cook all year......well that's because he really hasn't. I think if Pangos had seen guards like Cook throughout his conference schedule, he would have been more prepared for the elite 8 game.

Congrats on your elite 8 run, it's just a shame that you guys have to play in the WCC.

gonzagafan62
03-30-2015, 10:07 AM
That's why George Mason, Wichita State, VCU and Butler made the Final Four? Good grief perception is such a misnomer!

I guess you didn't see those?

zagsfanforlife
03-30-2015, 10:07 AM
Pangos has trouble with quick, athletic guards because he is not as quick or athletic. I think it has more to do with that then the WCC. My opinion. Thank you for joining the conversation though!

zagfan99
03-30-2015, 10:07 AM
Huh. So, playing in the WCC will allow Gonzaga to be good enough to play in the Elite 8, but not the Final 4? It will allow GU to have a lead in the 2nd half of an Elite 8 game, but makes it impossible to win said game? So, Gonzaga can win close games in other rounds and other big games, but never could they win a close game in the Elite 8. Impossible. Because of their conference.

That's a pretty small space you're trying to cram your opinion into. I hope you feel silly after having written that.

Bouldin4Prez
03-30-2015, 10:08 AM
First off, let me say that you are completely wrong

CDC84
03-30-2015, 10:09 AM
Recent history suggests otherwise. If Butler can make the title game two years in a row out of the Horizon League (a worse league than the WCC), and if VCU and GMU can make the final four out of their leagues, Gonzaga can do so as well.

All it takes is one blown up bracket and a nice draw. Lots of teams can make the final 4. Winning six in a row is different.

gonzagafan62
03-30-2015, 10:12 AM
Oh and LionKid, The Big XII was the best conference in basketball according to most pundits:

Most of those 7 teams that made the tournament lost in the First Round and Only Oklahoma and West Virginia made the Sweet Sixteen ...... Guess that prepared the Big XII to go deep eh? No Elite Eight teams? Hmmmmmmm.... Again, Argument flawed.

TexasZagFan
03-30-2015, 10:13 AM
First off, let me say I am not a Zags fan, but I do follow the team closely because I live in the Seattle area.

This may sound harsh, but you guys will never make a final four as long as you play in that small conference known as the WCC. You guys play scrubs for 3 months straight and then get thrown in the grinder, in March. I knew you guys would play the first 30-35 minutes well, but once the game got near the end, I knew Duke would make the plays and you guys wouldn't. Duke has been in these big game situations almost every week, you guys had probably played one or two close games on a big stage since the start of 2015. I'm well aware that you Gonzaga challenged themselves in the non-conference, but that was over 3 months ago. But from January to March, Duke is playing top notch opponents on a weekly basis, whereas Gonzaga is playing the Santa Clara's and San Francisco.

You guys had a terrific team, and as talented as any other team in the nation (with the exception of Kentucky), but you guys will always be one step behind of the power conference teams in terms of readiness and preperation. I thought a prime example was Pangos. He looked like he hadn't seen a guard like Quinn Cook all year......well that's because he really hasn't. I think if Pangos had seen guards like Cook throughout his conference schedule, he would have been more prepared for the elite 8 game.

Congrats on your elite 8 run, it's just a shame that you guys have to play in the WCC.

Thanks for stopping by, Lorenzo. We look forward to renewing our annual beat down of the Huskies.

seacatfan
03-30-2015, 10:14 AM
In regards to Pangos, does anyone recall the way he was playing at the beginning of the '13-'14 season, before the turf toe/ankle injuries? Didn't he torch Arkansas for 30+ in Maui and was able to drive at will? Although he was healthy this year, it seemed to me that he never got his game back to the level it was during the first 1/4 or 1/3 of the previous year.

Zag 77
03-30-2015, 10:17 AM
I wish I had a nickel for every time I have heard that nonsense. We made it to the Elite 8 by defeating teams from the Pac 12 and Big 10. That alone should put an end to that nonsense about the WCC. Look at the teams in recent years that made the Final 4 from non-"power" conferences:

Butler (2010 & 2011) Horizon League
VCU (2011) Colonial Conference
George Mason (2006) Colonial Conference
Wichita State (2013) Missouri Valley Conference

FlyZag
03-30-2015, 10:25 AM
4:48 to play... Wiltjer misses the bunny to tie the game. 2 pt game, under 5 min to play. Listen to the Duke players and coaches, they certainly think the WCC prepared us well.

TimberZag
03-30-2015, 10:44 AM
First off, let me say I am not a Zags fan, but I do follow the team closely because I live in the Seattle area.

This may sound harsh, but you guys will never make a final four as long as you play in that small conference known as the WCC. You guys play scrubs for 3 months straight and then get thrown in the grinder, in March. I knew you guys would play the first 30-35 minutes well, but once the game got near the end, I knew Duke would make the plays and you guys wouldn't. Duke has been in these big game situations almost every week, you guys had probably played one or two close games on a big stage since the start of 2015. I'm well aware that you Gonzaga challenged themselves in the non-conference, but that was over 3 months ago. But from January to March, Duke is playing top notch opponents on a weekly basis, whereas Gonzaga is playing the Santa Clara's and San Francisco.

You guys had a terrific team, and as talented as any other team in the nation (with the exception of Kentucky), but you guys will always be one step behind of the power conference teams in terms of readiness and preperation. I thought a prime example was Pangos. He looked like he hadn't seen a guard like Quinn Cook all year......well that's because he really hasn't. I think if Pangos had seen guards like Cook throughout his conference schedule, he would have been more prepared for the elite 8 game.

Congrats on your elite 8 run, it's just a shame that you guys have to play in the WCC.

Wouldn't Gonzaga need a football team to be considered for those other big conferences?

TexasZagFan
03-30-2015, 10:56 AM
Wouldn't Gonzaga need a football team to be considered for those other big conferences?

Coach K makes more in one season than Few in nine years. Duke brings in over $30 million a year in revenue, 3 times that of GU. You better have an advantage over your opponent with a disparity like that. Maybe it's time for real revenue sharing in college basketball.

bballbeachbum
03-30-2015, 11:06 AM
I wish I had a nickel for every time I have heard that nonsense. We made it to the Elite 8 by defeating teams from the Pac 12 and Big 10. That alone should put an end to that nonsense about the WCC. Look at the teams in recent years that made the Final 4 from non-"power" conferences:

Butler (2010 & 2011) Horizon League
VCU (2011) Colonial Conference
George Mason (2006) Colonial Conference
Wichita State (2013) Missouri Valley Conference

I hear what you're saying, agree to a point, but disagree with comparing the current Zag situation after all these years; those other teams burst on the scene and made runs and are trying to maintain that orbit. The Zags didn't burst into the FF in '99, no, but they were in the SS 4 times over the next decade. It's their sustained excellence that alters their equation imo, it's very unique seems to me. More hunted than hunter, different dyanamic. just my take

LionKid
03-30-2015, 11:06 AM
Huh. So, playing in the WCC will allow Gonzaga to be good enough to play in the Elite 8, but not the Final 4? It will allow GU to have a lead in the 2nd half of an Elite 8 game, but makes it impossible to win said game? So, Gonzaga can win close games in other rounds and other big games, but never could they win a close game in the Elite 8. Impossible. Because of their conference.

That's a pretty small space you're trying to cram your opinion into. I hope you feel silly after having written that.

First off, let me say you guys didn't exactly have the big wins that took you to an elite 8. You guys beat North Dakota St (yawn), an Iowa team that has been up and down all year, and you beat a weak UCLA team. Even you guys can admit you guys had one of the easiest roads to the elite 8. You beat a 15 seed, a 7 seed and an 11 seed.

All i'm saying is that in a big game against big contender, more times than not you guys will come up short because you guys have no prep for big games.

gonzagafan62
03-30-2015, 11:08 AM
First off, let me say you guys didn't exactly have the big wins that took you to an elite 8. You guys beat North Dakota St (yawn), an Iowa team that has been up and down all year, and you beat a weak UCLA team. Even you guys can admit you guys had one of the easiest roads to the elite 8. You beat a 15 seed, a 7 seed and an 11 seed.

All i'm saying is that in a big game against big contender, more times than not you guys will come up short because you guys have no prep for big games.

Blah Blah Blah. Again, guess you missed out on the 5 teams that did do this since 2006.

LionKid
03-30-2015, 11:13 AM
Blah Blah Blah. Again, guess you missed out on the 5 teams that did do this since 2006.

I guess you missed out on all the years you guys failed to make it out the first weekend.

And you can't compare yourself to a VCU/Butler/GW because you are no longer a darkhorse. For each of those 5 teams that made it since 2006, there are hundreds that didn't.

LionKid
03-30-2015, 11:16 AM
I wish I had a nickel for every time I have heard that nonsense. We made it to the Elite 8 by defeating teams from the Pac 12 and Big 10. That alone should put an end to that nonsense about the WCC. Look at the teams in recent years that made the Final 4 from non-"power" conferences:

Butler (2010 & 2011) Horizon League
VCU (2011) Colonial Conference
George Mason (2006) Colonial Conference
Wichita State (2013) Missouri Valley Conference

You beat UCLA, which is an average college team at best, they didn't even belong in the tournament. You beat an Iowa team that has been more up and down than any team this year. You guys probably could have beaten an SMU or Iowa St, i'm not arguing against that. But don't go beating your chest as if beating a #7 and #11 seed mean a whole lot.

And i'm not arguing that you guys aren't good. You guys are awesome. IMO, you guys have as much talent as any team not named Kentucky. But in a big game under the spotlight, you guys will come up short more times than not because you guys are ill-prepared by your weak conference.

gonzagafan62
03-30-2015, 11:17 AM
You beat UCLA, which is an average college team at best, they didn't even belong in the tournament. You beat an Iowa team that has been more up and down than any team this year. You guys probably could have beaten an SMU or Iowa St, i'm not arguing against that. But don't go beating your chest as if beating a #7 and #11 seed mean a whole lot.

And i'm not arguing that you guys aren't good. You guys are awesome. IMO, you guys have as much talent as any team not named Kentucky. But in a big game under the spotlight, you guys will come up short more times than not because you guys are ill-prepared by your weak conference.

Wait, why are you here again?

zagsfanforlife
03-30-2015, 11:18 AM
To troll. Obviously. Mods, are you able to ban people?

MJ777
03-30-2015, 11:18 AM
I guess you missed out on all the years you guys failed to make it out the first weekend.

And you can't compare yourself to a VCU/Butler/GW because you are no longer a darkhorse. For each of those 5 teams that made it since 2006, there are hundreds that didn't.

I agree that the WCC does not adequately prepare a team to play the Elites of college basketball, but I do not believe it is impossible to make it to a FF out of the WCC and even beat an elite or 2 in the process. I think people are upset with your "Never" proclamation. If one believes in something then you Never say never.

zagsfanforlife
03-30-2015, 11:19 AM
I cant remember seeing UW on my bracket this year. How did they end up faring anyways?

ZagLawGrad
03-30-2015, 11:19 AM
There's some truth to the WCC element. You are blind if you think otherwise.

Would the Zags be better in March having played in the ACC? No doubt, and Duke proved it yesterday IMO.

But a nice run despite the weaknesses of the WCC. No doubt about it.

zagsfanforlife
03-30-2015, 11:23 AM
There's some truth to the WCC element. You are blind if you think otherwise.

But a nice run despite the weaknesses of the WCC. No doubt about it.

Would the Zags be a #2 seed if they played in the ACC or Big 10? The argument goes both ways. Maybe we get a 4 seed in another conference, have a much tougher rode and dont even make the elite 8.

tinfoilzag
03-30-2015, 11:30 AM
Thanks for posting LionKid.

Your point has been made before and I think it is worth exploring. I think it's the style of WCC games and the officiating (not so much the quality of teams)that doesn't let GU get the type of preparation you would hope for going into the dance.

With that said, the WCC is where we are going to play for a while so GU will just have to adapt. We'll schedule anyone willing to play us home/home. The problem is getting any takers from the power conferences as their schedule difficulty is built in.

For this tourney and other seasons, we can only play who are scheduled to play.

229SintoZag
03-30-2015, 11:47 AM
How did Tark and the Runnin Rebels ever win that title in 1990 coming as they did from such a weak conference--weaker, even, than the WCC?

You know what cracks me up about this argument? For the past 5 years it has always been "GU cannot get past the first weekend because of the WCC."

Now it is "GU cannot get to the Final Four because of the WCC."

Truly, the only way to silence clowns like this is to win a title. The goalposts are always moving. Not good enough to win a very decent league every year (basically, the best or second best hoops league after the power conferences). Not enough to make the dance every year for 17 years without slipping even once. Not enough to win at least one game in the dance (something half of all teams fail to do every year) for 14 of those 17 years. Not enough to win with integrity and quality players. Not enough to place several players in the NBA. Two Elite 8s. 6 Sweet 16s. Still not good enough.

GU has to win a title or we will continue to see threads like this every year after we exit.

Nothing else will ever be good enough.

Pargo the Destroyer
03-30-2015, 11:50 AM
Thanks for posting LionKid.

Your point has been made before and I think it is worth exploring. I think it's the style of WCC games and the officiating (not so much the quality of teams)that doesn't let GU get the type of preparation you would hope for going into the dance.

With that said, the WCC is where we are going to play for a while so GU will just have to adapt. We'll schedule anyone willing to play us home/home. The problem is getting any takers from the power conferences as their schedule difficulty is built in.

For this tourney and other seasons, we can only play who are scheduled to play.


My vote; join pac-12, become doormat under the guise of a more "national schedule" and watch the tournament come March from our living rooms. Too bad our state already has its representative for this.

gonzagafan62
03-30-2015, 11:56 AM
How did Tark and the Runnin Rebels ever win that title in 1990 coming as they did from such a weak conference--weaker, even, than the WCC?

You know what cracks me up about this argument? For the past 5 years it has always been "GU cannot get past the first weekend because of the WCC."

Now it is "GU cannot get to the Final Four because of the WCC."

Truly, the only way to silence clowns like this is to win a title. The goalposts are always moving. Not good enough to win a very decent league every year (basically, the best or second best hoops league after the power conferences). Not enough to make the dance every year for 17 years without slipping even once. Not enough to win at least one game in the dance (something half of all teams fail to do every year) for 14 of those 17 years. Not enough to win with integrity and quality players. Not enough to place several players in the NBA. Two Elite 8s. 6 Sweet 16s. Still not good enough.

GU has to win a title or we will continue to see threads like this every year after we exit.

Nothing else will ever be good enough.

Exactly. And I am not totally off base here with the original post. I think the WCC does have a little to do with it because of the officials. I agree that it affects our psyche going into the second round of the NCAA Touranment, and you could see a little bit more nerves during the beginning of games.HOWEVER, the never comment is just annoying. See the 6 teams I referenced to. I haven't seen a valid argument against it. Nor have I seen a valid argument trying to back the Big XII and why 2 of their best teams Baylor and Iowa State lost to mid majors (see Georgia State and UAB)..... I guess the Big XII is a weak conference? Why Has the Big XII only had Kansas go to the National Championship game in the last 25 years? That's a pretty good sample size right there. Does the Big XII suck?

Why did those teams beat the Big XII teams? Especially in critical situations? Baylor had a 10 point lead with like 1:50 to go. Georgia State made critical plays. UAB made critical plays against Iowa State. Us making critical plays against Duke last night had nothing to do with playing in the WCC. It had everything to do with Duke's defense. It really stepped into gear.

Like I say every year: Why can't we just say that the team that beat us (Duke) is just a better team than us? Which they are! They are a better team than us. Its plain and simple. Conference affiliation has nothing to do with it. Nothing.

gonzagafan62
03-30-2015, 11:57 AM
My vote; join pac-12, become doormat under the guise of a more "national schedule" and watch the tournament come March from our living rooms. Too bad our state already has its representative for this.

:lmao:

That was great.

SWZag
03-30-2015, 12:12 PM
First off, let me say I am not a Zags fan, but I do follow the team closely because I live in the Seattle area.

This may sound harsh, but you guys will never make a final four as long as you play in that small conference known as the WCC. You guys play scrubs for 3 months straight and then get thrown in the grinder, in March. I knew you guys would play the first 30-35 minutes well, but once the game got near the end, I knew Duke would make the plays and you guys wouldn't. Duke has been in these big game situations almost every week, you guys had probably played one or two close games on a big stage since the start of 2015. I'm well aware that you Gonzaga challenged themselves in the non-conference, but that was over 3 months ago. But from January to March, Duke is playing top notch opponents on a weekly basis, whereas Gonzaga is playing the Santa Clara's and San Francisco.

You guys had a terrific team, and as talented as any other team in the nation (with the exception of Kentucky), but you guys will always be one step behind of the power conference teams in terms of readiness and preperation. I thought a prime example was Pangos. He looked like he hadn't seen a guard like Quinn Cook all year......well that's because he really hasn't. I think if Pangos had seen guards like Cook throughout his conference schedule, he would have been more prepared for the elite 8 game.

Congrats on your elite 8 run, it's just a shame that you guys have to play in the WCC.

Would you propose some other conference? Pac-12, Mountain West, WAC, Big West, Big XII, others in the west produced only one member of the Elite 8. And that team beat GU in overtime at home. Maybe you can offer some of your vast insight into what other Western-half-of-the-US conference prepares teams for the tourney? I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.

spike_jr
03-30-2015, 12:15 PM
This is an interesting discussion with valid points all the way around. I think the OP is hitting on something important. We front load or schedule to the best of our ability and then we hit the WCC. Yes, we get everybody's best shot, but we get that shot in front of 4,000-6,000 fans (1/4-1/2 actually rooting for GU, in actual basketball facilities, against inferior competition, and with officiating that is much different than you see in the tournament or the East Coast power conferences.

In that game yesterday, we were getting Duke's best shot, in front of 20,000 people, played in a football stadium, against equal competition (sorry 62, I think we have/had the horses to compete with Duke), in a game that would have seen about 50 fouls in the WCC.

Duke sees this competition in these environments twice a week starting in January, if not before.

I do have one thing to say, and I am sure that there are some that disagree with me, but currently, the WCC is rated as a decent conference BECAUSE of GU, not in spite of GU. Take GU out of the WCC and what is left would not be pretty.

rennis
03-30-2015, 12:23 PM
I think any objective fan of GU will admit that the WCC does not offer the level of competition that many of our opponents face after the 1st round of the NCAA tournament throughout their conference season. The question is, does it hurt GU or help GU, on average, to be in the WCC as it pertains exclusively to winning NCAA tournament games.

Here is my take:

The WCC helps Gonzaga get INTO the tournament. The first step to winning a tournament game is to BE in the tournament. Gonzaga has found a way to win their way into the tournament every year since 1999. If Gonzaga was in another conference, there are certainly years where they would not have. Add to that the very obvious advantage to winning all or nearly all of your conference games - your ranking goes up throughout January and February, every single year. This results in better seeding in the NCAA tournament, most years, for Gonzaga*. In addition, Gonzaga's "soft" WCC schedule is against a lot of teams who are typically quite a bit better than they are given credit for. That, and every single team in the WCC is built around one principle - beating Gonzaga. If you think Gonzaga isn't prepared to play competitive basketball in March when it plays in a conference where every opponent's single most important mission every year is to beat your team? Seriously?

The conference does not have the elite guard play that you see at the top ranks of the ACC. Fact. The conference does not have the elite post play that you see at the top ranks of the Big Ten. Fact. That obviously means Gonzaga can't build a team capable of both beating their conference foes (much, much harder to do than most people think) while still recruiting and developing post players and guards that can play with anyone in the country in a neutral setting. Fiction.

From my perspective, the only limitation the WCC puts on GU is perhaps that of recruiting - I think it's probably a bit harder to land some of the elite players out of HS because of the conference. Even that is slowly being overcome, in my opinion, because of things like the OOC schedule, player development, and post-season opportunities.

*sometimes too good. Can we please get a 12 seed one of these years instead of a 8 or 9 when we're "down." Please!?

gonzagafan62
03-30-2015, 12:25 PM
I think any objective fan of GU will admit that the WCC does not offer the level of competition that many of our opponents face after the 1st round of the NCAA tournament throughout their conference season. The question is, does it hurt GU or help GU, on average, to be in the WCC as it pertains exclusively to winning NCAA tournament games.

Here is my take:

The WCC helps Gonzaga get INTO the tournament. The first step to winning a tournament game is to BE in the tournament. Gonzaga has found a way to win their way into the tournament every year since 1999. If Gonzaga was in another conference, there are certainly years where they would not have. Add to that the very obvious advantage to winning all or nearly all of your conference games - your ranking goes up throughout January and February, every single year. This results in better seeding in the NCAA tournament, most years, for Gonzaga*. In addition, Gonzaga's "soft" WCC schedule is against a lot of teams who are typically quite a bit better than they are given credit for. That, and every single team in the WCC is built around one principle - beating Gonzaga. If you think Gonzaga isn't prepared to play competitive basketball in March when it plays in a conference where every opponent's single most important mission every year is to beat your team? Seriously?

The conference does not have the elite guard play that you see at the top ranks of the ACC. Fact. The conference does not have the elite post play that you see at the top ranks of the Big Ten. Fact. That obviously means Gonzaga can't build a team capable of both beating their conference foes (much, much harder to do than most people think) while still recruiting and developing post players and guards that can play with anyone in the country in a neutral setting. Fiction.

From my perspective, the only limitation the WCC puts on GU is perhaps that of recruiting - I think it's probably a bit harder to land some of the elite players out of HS because of the conference. Even that is slowly being overcome, in my opinion, because of things like the OOC schedule, player development, and post-season opportunities.

*sometimes too good. Can we please get a 12 seed one of these years instead of a 8 or 9 when we're "down." Please!?

I think you nailed it.

FuManShoes
03-30-2015, 12:29 PM
I'm not seeing where conference affiliation plays into your ability to finish a game strong. You either have favorable matchups to exploit or you don't. You either have the mindset that we ain't giving this away or you don't. You can develop both in a crappy small conference or a big one with a marquee name. The Zags play in a weaker conference than Duke yet owned Duke inside and won the rebounding battle and held Duke to 35% shooting. Duke plays in a better conference and faces better competition than GU and has quicker guards who can drive and get around screens. How would any of that been different if GU had played in the Pac 12 or faced some blue blood in February? Our guards weren't as good as their guards. They won that matchup all game, held onto the ball, and got to the line where they made freethrows. The Zags couldn't do the same - because of matchups, the dome and dumb luck, not because of the WCC.

LongIslandZagFan
03-30-2015, 12:32 PM
I'm not seeing where conference affiliation plays into your ability to finish a game strong. You either have favorable matchups to exploit or you don't. You either have the mindset that we ain't giving this away or you don't. You can develop both in a crappy small conference or a big one with a marquee name. The Zags play in a weaker conference than Duke yet owned Duke inside and won the rebounding battle and held Duke to 35% shooting. Duke plays in a better conference and faces better competition than GU and has quicker guards who can drive and get around screens. How would any of that been different if GU had played in the Pac 12 or faced some blue blood in February? Our guards weren't as good as their guards. They won that matchup all game, held onto the ball, and got to the line where they made freethrows. The Zags couldn't do the same - because of matchups, the dome and dumb luck, not because of the WCC.

Bingo.

gozagswoohoo
03-30-2015, 12:56 PM
First off, let me say I am not a Zags fan, but I do follow the team closely because I live in the Seattle area.

This may sound harsh, but you guys will never make a final four as long as you play in that small conference known as the WCC. You guys play scrubs for 3 months straight and then get thrown in the grinder, in March. I knew you guys would play the first 30-35 minutes well, but once the game got near the end, I knew Duke would make the plays and you guys wouldn't. Duke has been in these big game situations almost every week, you guys had probably played one or two close games on a big stage since the start of 2015. I'm well aware that you Gonzaga challenged themselves in the non-conference, but that was over 3 months ago. But from January to March, Duke is playing top notch opponents on a weekly basis, whereas Gonzaga is playing the Santa Clara's and San Francisco.

You guys had a terrific team, and as talented as any other team in the nation (with the exception of Kentucky), but you guys will always be one step behind of the power conference teams in terms of readiness and preperation. I thought a prime example was Pangos. He looked like he hadn't seen a guard like Quinn Cook all year......well that's because he really hasn't. I think if Pangos had seen guards like Cook throughout his conference schedule, he would have been more prepared for the elite 8 game.

Congrats on your elite 8 run, it's just a shame that you guys have to play in the WCC.


I rate your post and your 'outsider thoughts' 1 and a half tubes of Preparation H cream.

http://i.imgur.com/a0LemJR.png

DixieZag
03-30-2015, 01:11 PM
I'm not seeing where conference affiliation plays into your ability to finish a game strong. You either have favorable matchups to exploit or you don't. You either have the mindset that we ain't giving this away or you don't. You can develop both in a crappy small conference or a big one with a marquee name. The Zags play in a weaker conference than Duke yet owned Duke inside and won the rebounding battle and held Duke to 35% shooting. Duke plays in a better conference and faces better competition than GU and has quicker guards who can drive and get around screens. How would any of that been different if GU had played in the Pac 12 or faced some blue blood in February? Our guards weren't as good as their guards. They won that matchup all game, held onto the ball, and got to the line where they made freethrows. The Zags couldn't do the same - because of matchups, the dome and dumb luck, not because of the WCC.

I think that is exactly right.

But, to add to that, it sure wouldn't hurt to have more late season experience in executing plays against such high level of opposition. The idiocy of the OP is the "never" point. That is the condescension that only a P5 or BCS fan can exude. We get the right players and the right match-ups, as we damn near had this year, and we'll get there. The experience in playing teams like that would help, but it is not a requirement, nor does the lack of it spell certain failure every year.

The OP is taking something we all absolutely know to be true - It would help to play higher level competition later in the year - as if that were a novel or insightful observation, and then extending it out into a snobby "so it will never happen" fiat.

zagfan99
03-30-2015, 01:13 PM
There's some truth to the WCC element. You are blind if you think otherwise.

Would the Zags be better in March having played in the ACC? No doubt, and Duke proved it yesterday IMO.

But a nice run despite the weaknesses of the WCC. No doubt about it.

Try again. Logically, your conclusion of what Duke proved yesterday is a bona fide non-sequitur. Res Ipsa.

ZagLawGrad
03-30-2015, 01:24 PM
I think any objective fan of GU will admit that the WCC does not offer the level of competition that many of our opponents face after the 1st round of the NCAA tournament throughout their conference season. The question is, does it hurt GU or help GU, on average, to be in the WCC as it pertains exclusively to winning NCAA tournament games...

Good points. Especially the "objective fan" part.

Would the Zags be better prepared for the NCAA Tournament if it played in a better conference? I don't see any strong arguments in favor of an answer other than "Yes".

Are there exceptions to the rule? Yes, such as the UNLV team mentioned by another poster earlier. But very few exceptions over time.

But its our conference, so all we can do is hope the WCC gets better on a consistent basis.

ZagLawGrad
03-30-2015, 01:27 PM
Try again. Logically, your conclusion of what Duke proved yesterday is a bona fide non-sequitur. Res Ipsa.

If you can't connect the dots on this one, there has to be some denial going on.

sittingon50
03-30-2015, 01:33 PM
Let's start over, Lion. Who is your horse?

Zager27
03-30-2015, 01:38 PM
First of all, I understand the basis for concern with the WCC. However, when viewed from another perspective, dominating the WCC instills a winning culture in our players and in our program. Winning is fun and attracts better recruits/transfers. After all, it is the players that ultimately make our program great. Success breeds success...

Like others have stated, despite our strong recruiting efforts lately, we still can't get the same caliber players as the likes of Duke, Kentucky, etc. But who knows, if we keep winning and developing players better than other top programs, we might consistently start attracting some elite McDonald' AA-type recruits. Only then will we be able to consistently go further in the big dance.

MickMick
03-30-2015, 02:02 PM
Let's boil this down to simplicity.

If you are playing in the regional final, you are typically playing a damn good team that is more than likely coached up by a great basketball mind. This has more to do with the outcome than conference affiliation.

This Duke team was the best squad GU has faced since the 2009 Tar Heels. Not just in conference, but in the tournament. Hell, it may be the best team the program has ever faced.

Virginia, Kansas, and Villanova looked less prepared than GU.

Can we just tip our cap to Duke and move on? This thing hasn't played out yet and history may repeat itself where GU is knocked out of the final four by the eventual champion.

surfmonkey89
03-30-2015, 02:09 PM
I think any objective fan of GU will admit that the WCC does not offer the level of competition that many of our opponents face after the 1st round of the NCAA tournament throughout their conference season. The question is, does it hurt GU or help GU, on average, to be in the WCC as it pertains exclusively to winning NCAA tournament games.

Here is my take:

The WCC helps Gonzaga get INTO the tournament. The first step to winning a tournament game is to BE in the tournament. Gonzaga has found a way to win their way into the tournament every year since 1999. If Gonzaga was in another conference, there are certainly years where they would not have. Add to that the very obvious advantage to winning all or nearly all of your conference games - your ranking goes up throughout January and February, every single year. This results in better seeding in the NCAA tournament, most years, for Gonzaga*. In addition, Gonzaga's "soft" WCC schedule is against a lot of teams who are typically quite a bit better than they are given credit for. That, and every single team in the WCC is built around one principle - beating Gonzaga. If you think Gonzaga isn't prepared to play competitive basketball in March when it plays in a conference where every opponent's single most important mission every year is to beat your team? Seriously?

The conference does not have the elite guard play that you see at the top ranks of the ACC. Fact. The conference does not have the elite post play that you see at the top ranks of the Big Ten. Fact. That obviously means Gonzaga can't build a team capable of both beating their conference foes (much, much harder to do than most people think) while still recruiting and developing post players and guards that can play with anyone in the country in a neutral setting. Fiction.

From my perspective, the only limitation the WCC puts on GU is perhaps that of recruiting - I think it's probably a bit harder to land some of the elite players out of HS because of the conference. Even that is slowly being overcome, in my opinion, because of things like the OOC schedule, player development, and post-season opportunities.

*sometimes too good. Can we please get a 12 seed one of these years instead of a 8 or 9 when we're "down." Please!?

I think we can close the thread now.

Zagdawg
03-30-2015, 02:23 PM
Agree- it has been stated in the past by recruits - they chose not to come to Gonzaga because we play in the WCC. We understand this- but we will do what we can with the players who choose to play for us despite playing in the WCC.

gonzagafan62
03-30-2015, 02:40 PM
The funny thing is that we could have gone to the final four and beaten Utah to get there and then lose to Michigan state and this poster would say "well of course you can't win the national title".... Blah blah blah. Btw, mickmick you're spot on too. Basically what I've said the whole time.

thegloriousgoateeofKP
03-30-2015, 03:50 PM
In regards to Pangos, does anyone recall the way he was playing at the beginning of the '13-'14 season, before the turf toe/ankle injuries? Didn't he torch Arkansas for 30+ in Maui and was able to drive at will? Although he was healthy this year, it seemed to me that he never got his game back to the level it was during the first 1/4 or 1/3 of the previous year.

100% agree. After watching that Arkansas game, I pegged KP for an average of 20 or more, because of his ability to drive AND outside shooting. But even after his toe healed, we didn't see him creating his own shots much. I wonder why

sylean
03-30-2015, 05:31 PM
Wichita seems to do very well out of a mid major conference...

TexasZagFan
03-31-2015, 04:31 AM
Wichita seems to do very well out of a mid major conference...

Yes, they've caught Lightning for a few years, but can they sustain it?

LongIslandZagFan
03-31-2015, 08:41 AM
Yes, they've caught Lightning for a few years, but can they sustain it?

Think if they lose their coach to Texas... no.

gonzagafan62
03-31-2015, 08:45 AM
Yes, they've caught Lightning for a few years, but can they sustain it?

The only way to do that is keep Greg Marshall. They keep Marshall, they should be able to. We will see.

thegloriousgoateeofKP
03-31-2015, 08:45 AM
Think if they lose their coach to Texas... no.

It's been said ad nauseum, but it can't be said enough: we are SOOOOO lucky that Coach Few loves Spokane, and that he's never even been tempted to leave. If he'd left, I don't know if we would have sustained this run. If Marshall leaves WSU, they might, but probably not.

Oh, and Few is still very young (52). We don't need to worry about finding a coach for another, what? 20 years? 25? And if things stay the way they are, by that time, we'll be able to land a big name if we want. Holy cow, Mark Few is incredible...we are so fortunate to have him.

gonzagafan62
03-31-2015, 08:48 AM
It's been said ad nauseum, but it can't be said enough: we are SOOOOO lucky that Coach Few loves Spokane, and that he's never even been tempted to leave. If he'd left, I don't know if we would have sustained this run. If Marshall leaves WSU, they might, but probably not.

Oh, and Few is still very young (52). We don't need to worry about finding a coach for another, what? 20 years? 25? And if things stay the way they are, by that time, we'll be able to land a big name if we want. Holy cow, Mark Few is incredible...we are so fortunate to have him.

I don't think we have another 20-25. I think anything from 8-15 is a good guess. Mark Few already stated he didn't wanna be around as long as Boeheim is at Syracuse. Its all coachspeak, and speculation, yes, but I think we hit the halfway mark a few years ago. The piece we need to stay now is Tommy.

cbbfanatic
03-31-2015, 08:53 AM
Recent history suggests otherwise. If Butler can make the title game two years in a row out of the Horizon League (a worse league than the WCC), and if VCU and GMU can make the final four out of their leagues, Gonzaga can do so as well.

All it takes is one blown up bracket and a nice draw. Lots of teams can make the final 4. Winning six in a row is different.

i'd like to think that gu can one day get it done without the benefit of a blown bracket - that should be the goal. the conference/preparation thing isnt the real issue to me. prepared or not, this year's GU team has the same strengths and weaknesses. maybe more "preparation" would have resulted in more losses and a worse seed/path. who knows.

what i do know, though, is that i'd like to see a GU team make the final four without a nice path, by beating some big teams in big spots - because to me that is the most memorable/rewarding thing you can have in college basketball -- big wins in big spots over big time teams. almost got it this weekend, but wasnt to be.

thegloriousgoateeofKP
03-31-2015, 08:53 AM
I don't think we have another 20-25. I think anything from 8-15 is a good guess. Mark Few already stated he didn't wanna be around as long as Boeheim is at Syracuse. Its all coachspeak, and speculation, yes, but I think we hit the halfway mark a few years ago. The piece we need to stay now is Tommy.

True. Another 8-15 years of Coach Few should have us firmly established to have basically our pick of the litter whenever he finally does call it quits. If that's Tommy, great. If there's a hot shot young coach around, he'd be hard pressed to turn down Gonzaga in favor of a middling Power 5 school, I'd think.

GU69
03-31-2015, 09:08 AM
I really like the WCC.

Although the final score of the Duke game didn't look too good, that was a very tight game until the last few minutes and it could have gone either way. If Duke had lost would the story be that the ACC didn't prepare them adequately? Similarly, was Arizona not properly prepared by it's conference?

LionKid
03-31-2015, 10:08 AM
Sorry I was banned for a day, but looks like it got lifted. First off, thankyou to the mods for uplifting the ban. If you feel I step over the line, feel free to impose it. Let me respond to as many points that I can.

First off, I'm not a troll. I complemented Gonzaga numerous times, saying you guys have as much talent as any team not named Kentucky.

And for the guy who made the snide comment about Washington Basketball....yes I am a UW fan, and yes we do suck. I'm well aware of that, you guys are 100X better than us right now, there is no denying that. UW Hoops is in shambles right now.

But I just don't understand how some of you can't see that your small conference doesn't prepare you for the tournament. You guys played a great non-conference schedule, but it doesn't help that those non-conference games are played 4-5 months before March Madness. I also think that since the WCC plays their conference tourney a week early, that also hurts you guys because the long lay off.

IMO, you guys would be better off being a #4 or #5 seed in a power conference, than dominating the WCC and being a #1 or #2 seed. And I'm not very familiar with your guys' situation, but you are stuck in the WCC for good yes? Being a private religous school, don't you guys have to be in the WCC? Or are you guys able to move to say the Pac12?

And for all of you who bring up small conference teams who made deep runs into the tourney, they're a VERY small percent. I would almost call them anomalys. Every 5 years, a low seeded team is going to make a run. So yes, it could be you guys, but we are talking about 1 team from a small conference every 5 or 6 years making it. And I can't even consider you guys in that category anymore, because you guys are nationally known and have been a top 25 team for a while now. But yes, that is the beauty of march madness, anyone can make it. And yes, you guys still can. I am wrong for using the word "never." All I'm saying is that I would give you guys a much higher chance of winning the game against Duke had you guys played a tougher schedule.

I don't think anyone can argue that a team who plays Notre Dame, UNC, Louisville, Virginia, NCST, Syracuse, etc will be better off than a team that plays Santa Clara, Pepperdine, Portland, San Francisco, etc.

Once again to clarify. I'm not bashing you guys. You guys have an awesome team. I was rooting for you guys the whole way against Duke. But I noticed when the game mattered in the last 5 minutes, Duke looked like they had been there, and you guys didn't.

gonzagafan62
03-31-2015, 10:14 AM
LionKid,

I respect your opinion. I hope you understand that. But what I was trying to ask you was how well did the BigXII prepare themselves for the tournament? I guess playing Pepperdine, BYU and SMC was better than playing all those ranked teams?

Iowa State, Baylor, were both 3 seeds losing to 14 seeds. Oklahoma State lost to Oregon. Texas lost to Butler, Oklahoma made he sweet sixteen and so did West Virginia, but neither advanced any further .... and Kansas the conference winner lost to a Wichita State team that got blown out by Notre Dame.

So was playing the WCC any better than playing the Big XII with all those close games? Truthfully it didn't matter.... At least in my opinion....Gonzaga went further than any big XII team

This is a single elimination tournament..... Its a game of runs. There is no preparation for the Big Dance. If you don't have what it takes ... then you aren't going to do well in March. You either have it or you don't

LionKid
03-31-2015, 10:30 AM
LionKid,

I respect your opinion. I hope you understand that. But what I was trying to ask you was how well did the BigXII prepare themselves for the tournament? I guess playing Pepperdine, BYU and SMC was better than playing all those ranked teams?

Iowa State, Baylor, were both 3 seeds losing to 14 seeds. Oklahoma State lost to Oregon. Texas lost to Butler, Oklahoma made he sweet sixteen and so did West Virginia, but neither advanced any further .... and Kansas the conference winner lost to a Wichita State team that got blown out by Notre Dame.

So was playing the WCC any better than playing the Big XII with all those close games? Truthfully it didn't matter.... At least in my opinion....Gonzaga went further than any big XII team

This is a single elimination tournament..... Its a game of runs. There is no preparation for the Big Dance. If you don't have what it takes ... then you aren't going to do well in March. You either have it or you don't

It's a tournament of 68 teams. You are going to have teams that bust out early like Iowa State and Baylor, and then you are going to have your teams like Michigan State and Notre Dame that go deep. It's hard to try to take the theory of "you play better competition....." and apply it to the tournament. Because you are always going to have mixed results. My response to your question about all the teams from power conferences who ducked out early....they were all flawed. Iowa St is a jump shooting team that plays no defense. Baylor was overrated, they werent' even suppose to make the tournament before the year. In the end, you guys are just a better team than Iowa St, Baylor, etc. That's why you guys made it to the elite 8. But once you guys faced superior competition, I think your lack of experience showed. Duke has been battle tested for 5 months straight, you guys got battle tested for 3-4 games all year.

And my other argument is, how did the "big boys" from smaller conferences fair against power conference teams? Other than Wichita beating Kansas (let me just say, KU was the most overrated #2 seed in a long time), most them didn't fair well. Northern Iowa got dominated by Louisville. Notre Dame dominated Wichita. Even Davidson got blown out Iowa.

thegloriousgoateeofKP
03-31-2015, 10:41 AM
It's a tournament of 68 teams. You are going to have teams that bust out early like Iowa State and Baylor, and then you are going to have your teams like Michigan State and Notre Dame that go deep. It's hard to try to take the theory of "you play better competition....." and apply it to the tournament. Because you are always going to have mixed results. My response to your question about all the teams from power conferences who ducked out early....they were all flawed. Iowa St is a jump shooting team that plays no defense. Baylor was overrated, they werent' even suppose to make the tournament before the year. In the end, you guys are just a better team than Iowa St, Baylor, etc. That's why you guys made it to the elite 8. But once you guys faced superior competition, I think your lack of experience showed. Duke has been battle tested for 5 months straight, you guys got battle tested for 3-4 games all year.

And my other argument is, how did the "big boys" from smaller conferences fair against power conference teams? Other than Wichita beating Kansas (let me just say, KU was the most overrated #2 seed in a long time), most them didn't fair well. Northern Iowa got dominated by Louisville. Notre Dame dominated Wichita. Even Davidson got blown out Iowa.

Teams play other teams, conferences don't take on conferences.

You'll note that Davidson was a higher seed vs. Iowa, UNI higher seed vs. Louisville, Wichita higher seed than ND, Gonzaga higher seed than Duke. So those TEAMS weren't as good as the teams they lost to. Had zero to do with their conferences.

But drawing conclusions based on one game sample sizes is foolish anyway. The sheer numbers...there are more Power 5 teams in the Tournament than mid-majors...means we're bound to have more Power 5 teams in the Final Four.

GrizZAG
03-31-2015, 11:14 AM
OP has some validity as others have said. So?

Fact: Zags could have won the game with Duke. Especially had they played with the intensity shown against BYU in a tough conference tourney. The missed bunny by Wiltjer to tie it up was unfortunate but started the Duke engines it seemed. A couple of our players were shut down pretty tight by great defense and we never really got into the scrum that usually ensues in these NCAA tourney games. Duke earned it, they are really good but IMO the WCC is not understood very well. It is pretty damn tough actually.
The OP sort of gave us a backhanded dose of condescension from my view much like too many others would from various power conferences. What's the point in his post? We are WCC and it won't change....no Football. His favorite team would love to have our resume'.

229SintoZag
03-31-2015, 11:41 AM
Sorry I was banned for a day, but looks like it got lifted. First off, thankyou to the mods for uplifting the ban. If you feel I step over the line, feel free to impose it. Let me respond to as many points that I can.

First off, I'm not a troll. I complemented Gonzaga numerous times, saying you guys have as much talent as any team not named Kentucky.

And for the guy who made the snide comment about Washington Basketball....yes I am a UW fan, and yes we do suck. I'm well aware of that, you guys are 100X better than us right now, there is no denying that. UW Hoops is in shambles right now.

But I just don't understand how some of you can't see that your small conference doesn't prepare you for the tournament. You guys played a great non-conference schedule, but it doesn't help that those non-conference games are played 4-5 months before March Madness. I also think that since the WCC plays their conference tourney a week early, that also hurts you guys because the long lay off.

IMO, you guys would be better off being a #4 or #5 seed in a power conference, than dominating the WCC and being a #1 or #2 seed. And I'm not very familiar with your guys' situation, but you are stuck in the WCC for good yes? Being a private religous school, don't you guys have to be in the WCC? Or are you guys able to move to say the Pac12?

And for all of you who bring up small conference teams who made deep runs into the tourney, they're a VERY small percent. I would almost call them anomalys. Every 5 years, a low seeded team is going to make a run. So yes, it could be you guys, but we are talking about 1 team from a small conference every 5 or 6 years making it. And I can't even consider you guys in that category anymore, because you guys are nationally known and have been a top 25 team for a while now. But yes, that is the beauty of march madness, anyone can make it. And yes, you guys still can. I am wrong for using the word "never." All I'm saying is that I would give you guys a much higher chance of winning the game against Duke had you guys played a tougher schedule.

I don't think anyone can argue that a team who plays Notre Dame, UNC, Louisville, Virginia, NCST, Syracuse, etc will be better off than a team that plays Santa Clara, Pepperdine, Portland, San Francisco, etc.

Once again to clarify. I'm not bashing you guys. You guys have an awesome team. I was rooting for you guys the whole way against Duke. But I noticed when the game mattered in the last 5 minutes, Duke looked like they had been there, and you guys didn't.

I appreciate you coming back here and making an attempt to state your position without bagging on the Zags. I take you at your word.

With that in mind, a response on the merits to your thesis:

The problem I see with your original post is that there is no means to test your hypothesis to ascertain whether or not it is true, and a corollory to that is an abundant body of evidence that it is false. Gonzaga does not play in any other conference, so there is no way to ever know what Gonzaga "would have" done in this tournament against Duke or anyone else if they did play in another conference.

If the thesis is that teams from Big 5 conferences go further in the tournament than Gonzaga or other small conference schools of equal or even lesser talent, that thesis is false and verifiably so. With the caveat that as a general proposition power schools will of course go deeper and do better in the tournament as a general rule, note these results:

Wichita State over Indiana; Butler over Texas; Dayton over Providence; SDSU over St. John's; UAB over Iowa St.; Xavier over Mississippi and over a Georgia State team that beat Baylor; Georgia State over Baylor; Xavier over Mississippi. That is 8 games in the first round of this year's tournament where the result does not square up with your thesis. 8 of the 32 games is not some random anomaly. If one out of four games is a result contrary to your thesis, it is time to consider the thesis false.

Let's take the flip side. The B1G has two teams in the Final Four this year in Wisconsin and Michigan State. I take it that you would think the Zags would be prepared to win better if they played in that league. But Iowa DID play its conference season in that league. And they showed up in the tournament and got absolutely boat-raced by the Zags, who ran them out of the gym. This makes no sense for them, since they should have been prepared for the Zags by the Big 10 schedule. Same for Villanova--don't tell me they weren't tested in their conference. Or Georgetown, or SMU for that matter. Or Baylor. You get the point.

The final problem with your thesis is that it is self-refuting. We are supposed to believe that teams like Duke from power conferences are well prepared because they play tough teams. Well one of those tough teams is, in fact, Duke itself. Every game has a loser and to blame the WCC for the Gonzaga loss is to take away from the win Duke earned on the floor with a valiant defensive effort, clutch three point shooting in a hostile environment, and resilience when the Zags made their two runs. Duke won this game as much as Gonzaga lost it. And they won it because they won THIS GAME. Not because they played and beat other teams in other games earlier this year. To suggest otherwise is to diminish Duke's accomplishment as well as Gonzaga's.

LionKid
03-31-2015, 11:51 AM
I appreciate you coming back here and making an attempt to state your position without bagging on the Zags. I take you at your word.

With that in mind, a response on the merits to your thesis:

The problem I see with your original post is that there is no means to test your hypothesis to ascertain whether or not it is true, and a corollory to that is an abundant body of evidence that it is false. Gonzaga does not play in any other conference, so there is no way to ever know what Gonzaga "would have" done in this tournament against Duke or anyone else if they did play in another conference.

If the thesis is that teams from Big 5 conferences go further in the tournament than Gonzaga or other small conference schools of equal or even lesser talent, that thesis is false and verifiably so. With the caveat that as a general proposition power schools will of course go deeper and do better in the tournament as a general rule, note these results:

Wichita State over Indiana; Butler over Texas; Dayton over Providence; SDSU over St. John's; UAB over Iowa St.; Xavier over Mississippi and over a Georgia State team that beat Baylor; Georgia State over Baylor; Xavier over Mississippi. That is 8 games in the first round of this year's tournament where the result does not square up with your thesis. 8 of the 32 games is not some random anomaly. If one out of four games is a result contrary to your thesis, it is time to consider the thesis false.

Let's take the flip side. The B1G has two teams in the Final Four this year in Wisconsin and Michigan State. I take it that you would think the Zags would be prepared to win better if they played in that league. But Iowa DID play its conference season in that league. And they showed up in the tournament and got absolutely boat-raced by the Zags, who ran them out of the gym. This makes no sense for them, since they should have been prepared for the Zags by the Big 10 schedule. Same for Villanova--don't tell me they weren't tested in their conference. Or Georgetown, or SMU for that matter. Or Baylor. You get the point.

The final problem with your thesis is that it is self-refuting. We are supposed to believe that teams like Duke from power conferences are well prepared because they play tough teams. Well one of those tough teams is, in fact, Duke itself. Every game has a loser and to blame the WCC for the Gonzaga loss is to take away from the win Duke earned on the floor with a valiant defensive effort, clutch three point shooting in a hostile environment, and resilience when the Zags made their two runs. Duke won this game as much as Gonzaga lost it. And they won it because they won THIS GAME. Not because they played and beat other teams in other games earlier this year. To suggest otherwise is to diminish Duke's accomplishment as well as Gonzaga's.

You are right, my theory is difficult to test. Because regardless, you are always going to have power conference teams bow out early, and obviously you are going to have power conference teams make the final 4. I"m not trying to turn this into an experiment with results. I came to this theory based on common sense. Wouldn't you think that playing tough teams that will be in the tournament will prepare you better for the actual tournament? When you prepare for an exam in school, would you prefer to take practice exams that are easy, or comparable to the actual test? I've always grown up under the impression that practicing in similar situations can prepare you for the real thing. I just don't see how playing Santa Clara, Loyola Marymount, San Diego and Portland helps you guys get better. If anything, it reminds me of the "smart kid who is bored in class and wasting his time." Like what do you guys get out of beating these WCC teams by 20? I think Duke can become a better team throughout the season by playing tough competition. I don't think you guys get better playing your conference. If you don't challenge yourself, how do you get better. And once again, this is all a moot point because you guys are stuck in the WCC. I'm just speaking out loud. I'm kind of presenting a problem with no real solution. I think your best hope is to have the WCC improve.

And you can't make arguments for Wichita over Indiana, SDSU over St Johns. etc. because Wichita was favored over Indiana. SDSU was favored over St John's. Most of those power conference teams you mentioned lost because they just weren't that good, it's that simple. I'm talking about when two very equal teams from power and small conference meet, e.g. duke vs zags. Obviously results will differ, because all teams are different. For instance, Wichita beat KU and Duke beat Gonzaga. I think Wichita was just the better team than KU. I think Zags and Duke was very equal, I just think Duke had the edge in experience (as far as game situation goes).

I'm not here to test this theory with factual results. I was more just stating my opinion: playing in a tougher conference will have you more prepared for the ncaa tournament. That's all.

seacatfan
03-31-2015, 11:51 AM
I can't help it, I have to ask if playing in the ACC helped prepare Duke for the Tourney when they lost in the 1st Round to Lehigh and Mercer in 2 of the 3 years prior to their Final 4 run this season?

cjm720
03-31-2015, 11:52 AM
I appreciate you coming back here and making an attempt to state your position without bagging on the Zags. I take you at your word.

With that in mind, a response on the merits to your thesis:

The problem I see with your original post is that there is no means to test your hypothesis to ascertain whether or not it is true, and a corollory to that is an abundant body of evidence that it is false. Gonzaga does not play in any other conference, so there is no way to ever know what Gonzaga "would have" done in this tournament against Duke or anyone else if they did play in another conference.

If the thesis is that teams from Big 5 conferences go further in the tournament than Gonzaga or other small conference schools of equal or even lesser talent, that thesis is false and verifiably so. With the caveat that as a general proposition power schools will of course go deeper and do better in the tournament as a general rule, note these results:

Wichita State over Indiana; Butler over Texas; Dayton over Providence; SDSU over St. John's; UAB over Iowa St.; Xavier over Mississippi and over a Georgia State team that beat Baylor; Georgia State over Baylor; Xavier over Mississippi. That is 8 games in the first round of this year's tournament where the result does not square up with your thesis. 8 of the 32 games is not some random anomaly. If one out of four games is a result contrary to your thesis, it is time to consider the thesis false.

Let's take the flip side. The B1G has two teams in the Final Four this year in Wisconsin and Michigan State. I take it that you would think the Zags would be prepared to win better if they played in that league. But Iowa DID play its conference season in that league. And they showed up in the tournament and got absolutely boat-raced by the Zags, who ran them out of the gym. This makes no sense for them, since they should have been prepared for the Zags by the Big 10 schedule. Same for Villanova--don't tell me they weren't tested in their conference. Or Georgetown, or SMU for that matter. Or Baylor. You get the point.

The final problem with your thesis is that it is self-refuting. We are supposed to believe that teams like Duke from power conferences are well prepared because they play tough teams. Well one of those tough teams is, in fact, Duke itself. Every game has a loser and to blame the WCC for the Gonzaga loss is to take away from the win Duke earned on the floor with a valiant defensive effort, clutch three point shooting in a hostile environment, and resilience when the Zags made their two runs. Duke won this game as much as Gonzaga lost it. And they won it because they won THIS GAME. Not because they played and beat other teams in other games earlier this year. To suggest otherwise is to diminish Duke's accomplishment as well as Gonzaga's.

re: bolded. Are you saying generally speaking big 5 schools go farther?

cbbfanatic
03-31-2015, 11:52 AM
but IMO the WCC is not understood very well. It is pretty damn tough actually.


disagree. big time. 2 bid league with #2 barely getting in and nobody else even close doesnt equate to a "tough" league. and i dont care how much teams get "up" for gonzaga, they still aren't good teams.

that said, i buy the "preparation" argument less this year than in years past. lack of preparation would have resulted in a loss to a lesser team in an earlier round. this year, gonzaga just ran into a better team and lost. fortunately they played such a great reg season that this didnt happen until the elite 8

i dont, however, see this as a massive corner turned for the program in the dance though. that happens, to me, when they beat a really good team in the tournament. a team they arent supposed to beat. when was the last time that happened? and im not talking about winning as a 10 over a 7 or anything like that. when was the last win over a top 4 seed? do you have to go back to few's first couple years? ron artest & st johns?

that's what i am waiting on --- for GU to go up against a legit power in the tournament, and advance. tall order, as great teams dont lose often, but if GU wants to be truly great, thats what needs to start happening, at least occasionally

gonzagafan62
03-31-2015, 11:55 AM
I can't help it, I have to ask if playing in the ACC helped prepare Duke for the Tourney when they lost in the 1st Round to Lehigh and Mercer in 2 of the 3 years prior to their Final 4 run this season?

Or if Kansas was prepared when they were knocked out by Bradley, Bucknell, Northern Iowa Wichita State, or Stanford last year. (all were 7 seeds or lower, and Kansas faced them all early, and lost early.)

gonzagafan62
03-31-2015, 11:57 AM
You are right, my theory is difficult to test. Because regardless, you are always going to have power conference teams bow out early, and obviously you are going to have power conference teams make the final 4. I"m not trying to turn this into an experiment with results. I came to this theory based on common sense. Wouldn't you think that playing tough teams that will be in the tournament will prepare you better for the actual tournament? When you prepare for an exam in school, would you prefer to take practice exams that are easy, or comparable to the actual test? I've always grown up under the impression that practicing in similar situations can prepare you for the real thing. I just don't see how playing Santa Clara, Loyola Marymount, San Diego and Portland helps you guys get better. If anything, it reminds me of the "smart kid who is bored in class and wasting his time." Like what do you guys get out of beating these WCC teams by 20? I think Duke can become a better team throughout the season by playing tough competition. I don't think you guys get better playing your conference. If you don't challenge yourself, how do you get better. And once again, this is all a moot point because you guys are stuck in the WCC. I'm just speaking out loud. I'm kind of presenting a problem with no real solution. I think your best hope is to have the WCC improve.

And you can't make arguments for Wichita over Indiana, SDSU over St Johns. etc. because Wichita was favored over Indiana. SDSU was favored over St John's. Most of those power conference teams you mentioned lost because they just weren't that good, it's that simple. I'm talking about when two very equal teams from power and small conference meet, e.g. duke vs zags. Obviously results will differ, because all teams are different. For instance, Wichita beat KU and Duke beat Gonzaga. I think Wichita was just the better team than KU. I think Zags and Duke was very equal, I just think Duke had the edge in experience (as far as game situation goes).

I'm not here to test this theory with factual results. I was more just stating my opinion: playing in a tougher conference will have you more prepared for the ncaa tournament. That's all.

So you don't wanna test this theory on actual results, because we have results that show that this theory "based on common sense" has been blown up before?

EDIT: Hahahaha... POW!

thegloriousgoateeofKP
03-31-2015, 11:58 AM
disagree. big time. 2 bid league with #2 barely getting in and nobody else even close doesnt equate to a "tough" league. and i dont care how much teams get "up" for gonzaga, they still aren't good teams.

that said, i buy the "preparation" argument less this year than in years past. lack of preparation would have resulted in a loss to a lesser team in an earlier round. this year, gonzaga just ran into a better team and lost. fortunately they played such a great reg season that this didnt happen until the elite 8

i dont, however, see this as a massive corner turned for the program in the dance though. that happens, to me, when they beat a really good team in the tournament. a team they arent supposed to beat. when was the last time that happened? and im not talking about winning as a 10 over a 7 or anything like that. when was the last win over a top 4 seed? do you have to go back to few's first couple years? ron artest & st johns?

that's what i am waiting on --- for GU to go up against a legit power in the tournament, and advance. tall order, as great teams dont lose often, but if GU wants to be truly great, thats what needs to start happening, at least occasionally

1. The WCC was the 7th best conference this year statistically. Aka, the best non-power conference.
2. Iowa was pretty dang good this year. A ranked team. And last year, EVERYONE expected Marcus Smart's Ok St. not only to beat us, but some were counting on them to advance beyond Arizona and SD St.
3. '99-'01 probably gave us unrealistic expectations about pulling upsets. Sure, it can be done. But it's HARD to beat teams that have been significantly better than you the whole season. We played a 1-seed Syracuse, a dominant UNC 1-seed, an extremely good 2-seed Ohio St...you can't realistically have expected us to win those games. For all the upsets in March that become immortalized, there are 20 double-digit wins by the favorites.

LionKid
03-31-2015, 12:11 PM
So you don't wanna test this theory on actual results, because we have results that show that this theory "based on common sense" has been blown up before?

EDIT: Hahahaha... POW!

Ok go ahead and test it. How do you test it? It's impossible. 4 power conference teams made it to the final four. A ton of power conference schools also lost in the first round. So how do you want to go about testing this?

cbbfanatic
03-31-2015, 12:12 PM
1. The WCC was the 7th best conference this year statistically. Aka, the best non-power conference.
2. Iowa was pretty dang good this year. A ranked team. And last year, EVERYONE expected Marcus Smart's Ok St. not only to beat us, but some were counting on them to advance beyond Arizona and SD St.
3. '99-'01 probably gave us unrealistic expectations about pulling upsets. Sure, it can be done. But it's HARD to beat teams that have been significantly better than you the whole season. We played a 1-seed Syracuse, a dominant UNC 1-seed, an extremely good 2-seed Ohio St...you can't realistically have expected us to win those games. For all the upsets in March that become immortalized, there are 20 double-digit wins by the favorites.

#1 - please. that "fact" means little to me. once you get past 6, its a big drop-off. plus, how big of a component to that ranking is GU, given that its such a small league? Take their #s out (which for GU, you kind of have to, since you dont get to play yourself), and the league is weak. very weak. how many pros on those other rosters? how many tournament bids? it's NOT a tough league - it's one good program and a bunch of weakness.
#2 - i dont see iowa in the polls. i see them getting one vote in the AP, 0 in the other. so, "dang good?" guess that depends on your perspective, but i would think a fan of a team that aspires towards being somehow elite wouldnt see the profile of iowa this year as "dang good." that's a should win game through and through. and who cares what people expected of marcus smart's team in the tournament last year? how is that relevant? what is relevant is that they earned their way into that 8/9 game, hence not a great team.
#3 - im not asking for huge upsets here, im asking for GU to beat a very good team in the tournament (reg season would be good too). GU is a good team itself, should be able to punch in that class. GU was a 2, duke a 1, would hardly have been a massive upset. i feel like that's a big gap in recent years, doesnt feel like GU is playing enough really good teams, robbing themselves of a chance to beat em. i remember in the 1 seed year, gu was something like 1-2 against the top 25. to me, thats what needs to be worked on here. schedule more top 10 type teams, and start getting some wins out of em - even if it adds a couple potential, maybe likely losses to the sched.

LionKid
03-31-2015, 12:14 PM
I just want to ask this question:

1. Do you guys think you become a better team throughout your conference schedule? IMO, you guys aren't challenging yourself by playing in the WCC. Having betting spreads of -15 or more in every game with the exception of BYU and St Mary's isn't challenging yourself. Going back to my last analogy, you guys are the genius kid sitting in an algebra math class, when you should be in calculus math.

Once again, it's a moot point, because you guys are stuck in the WCC regardless. I just think you guys would be a much better team if you played in a bigger conference. You may not have that great record with only 1-2 losses, but you would be a much better team.

Zagceo
03-31-2015, 12:15 PM
Ok go ahead and test it. How do you test it? It's impossible. 4 power conference teams made it to the final four. A ton of power conference schools also lost in the first round. So how do you want to go about testing this?

OK what are Zags options if your theory is played out?

Where do we play?

seacatfan
03-31-2015, 12:32 PM
I just want to ask this question:

1. Do you guys think you become a better team throughout your conference schedule? IMO, you guys aren't challenging yourself by playing in the WCC. Having betting spreads of -15 or more in every game with the exception of BYU and St Mary's isn't challenging yourself. Going back to my last analogy, you guys are the genius kid sitting in an algebra math class, when you should be in calculus math.

Once again, it's a moot point, because you guys are stuck in the WCC regardless. I just think you guys would be a much better team if you played in a bigger conference. You may not have that great record with only 1-2 losses, but you would be a much better team.

You've already said it yourself. Without a football team, there are literally no options for Gonzaga to join a better league. There was some speculation thrown around about joining the "new" Big East, but that would've been a logistical nightmare with all of the traveling. Obviously didn't happen. Where else could GU possibly go? The Pac 12 isnt going to add them as a basketball only member, neither is any other Power 5 conference. Mountain West would maybe be a slight upgrade, but there is still the problem of football. GU is stuck.

There are examples of teams being a powerhouse nationally in spite of a weak league. As mentioned UNLV did it for years. More recently Memphis continued to be a national power even after the old Big East raided all of the talent from Conference USA and left Memphis on their own.

gonzagafan62
03-31-2015, 12:40 PM
Ok go ahead and test it. How do you test it? It's impossible. 4 power conference teams made it to the final four. A ton of power conference schools also lost in the first round. So how do you want to go about testing this?

Again I've already given facts. In the last ten tournaments we've seen 5 non power teams make the final four in worse leagues than today's WCC fact. Theory disproven .

zagfan94
03-31-2015, 12:42 PM
You've already said it yourself. Without a football team, there are literally no options for Gonzaga to join a better league. There was some speculation thrown around about joining the "new" Big East, but that would've been a logistical nightmare with all of the traveling. Obviously didn't happen. Where else could GU possibly go? The Pac 12 isnt going to add them as a basketball only member, neither is any other Power 5 conference. Mountain West would maybe be a slight upgrade, but there is still the problem of football. GU is stuck.

There are examples of teams being a powerhouse nationally in spite of a weak league. As mentioned UNLV did it for years. More recently Memphis continued to be a national power even after the old Big East raided all of the talent from Conference USA and left Memphis on their own.

I think the MWC would have been a nice option back when BYU was there. Going against San Diego States defence a few times a year would probably prepare us for the tournament better than anything else.

sittingon50
03-31-2015, 12:54 PM
I think the MWC would have been a nice option back when BYU was there. Going against San Diego States defence a few times a year would probably prepare us for the tournament better than anything else.

Can't imagine Coach Fischer will be there much longer. So what happens to SDSU's "style" when they hire someone else?

And can we PLEASE remember that we are also talking about baseball, soccer, crew, cross country, golf, tennis, track & field. They are all going to have to play somewhere & they don't fly in a private plane.

Zagceo
03-31-2015, 12:54 PM
You've already said it yourself. Without a football team, there are literally no options for Gonzaga to join a better league. There was some speculation thrown around about joining the "new" Big East, but that would've been a logistical nightmare with all of the traveling. Obviously didn't happen. Where else could GU possibly go? The Pac 12 isnt going to add them as a basketball only member, neither is any other Power 5 conference. Mountain West would maybe be a slight upgrade, but there is still the problem of football. GU is stuck.

There are examples of teams being a powerhouse nationally in spite of a weak league. As mentioned UNLV did it for years. More recently Memphis continued to be a national power even after the old Big East raided all of the talent from Conference USA and left Memphis on their own.


Speaking of football….how many know USD has a football team and what conference that team plays in?

gonzagafan62
03-31-2015, 01:00 PM
I think the MWC would have been a nice option back when BYU was there. Going against San Diego States defence a few times a year would probably prepare us for the tournament better than anything else.

That didn't really prepare New Mexico, Colorado State, Boise State or UNLV when they went to the tournament. MWC has the most one and dones in the tournament over the last 5 years, easy.

LionKid
03-31-2015, 01:29 PM
Again I've already given facts. In the last ten tournaments we've seen 5 non power teams make the final four in worse leagues than today's WCC fact. Theory disproven .

What about the hundreds of other non-power conference teams that have fallen flat on their face in the tournament. And don't take offense when I say this, but what about all those times you guys lost in the tournament?

Once again, theory can't be tested.

gonzagafan62
03-31-2015, 01:31 PM
What about the hundreds of other non-power conference teams that have fallen flat on their face in the tournament. And don't take offense when I say this, but what about all those times you guys lost in the tournament?

Once again, theory can't be tested.

No. You said we will never make final four based on our conference. Are you coming around to changing this "theory?" after given facts?

seacatfan
03-31-2015, 01:33 PM
What about the hundreds of other non-power conference teams that have fallen flat on their face in the tournament. And don't take offense when I say this, but what about all those times you guys lost in the tournament?

Once again, theory can't be tested.

This is silly. Over the same time span there were also hundreds of teams from power conferences that lost early. This could be an entertaining exercise in circular logic.

LionKid
03-31-2015, 01:35 PM
Ok I'm going to end the discussion because this is going in a loop.

My fault for making the thread, because I basically presented a problem that has no real solution. The problem is that you guys play in a weak conference that IN MY OPINION does not prepare you guys for big competition. However, there is no solution to this, because you guys are stuck in the WCC.

It's just too bad you guys are stuck in that conference. I would personally love to see you guys battle it out with big schools for a 3 month stretch. You guys would obviously rack up more regular season losses in a bigger conference, but I think you guys would have a lot more success in the tournament.

LionKid
03-31-2015, 01:35 PM
This is silly. Over the same time span there were also hundreds of teams from power conferences that lost early. This could be an entertaining exercise in circular logic.


EXACTLY MY POINT. The theory cannot be tested. Which is why I said earlier that I'm not trying to test the theory by looking at past results. I was simply using common sense and my opinion.

Common sense tells you that a kid who is reading at a 8th grade level shouldn't be stuck in 5th grade english class. You guys are that kid! But once again, moot point, because unlike grade school where you can move a child up in class, Zags simply can't move conferences.

gonzagafan62
03-31-2015, 01:42 PM
EXACTLY MY POINT. The theory cannot be tested. Which is why I said earlier that I'm not trying to test the theory by looking at past results. I was simply using common sense and my opinion.

Common sense tells you that a kid who is reading at a 8th grade level shouldn't be stuck in 5th grade english class. You guys are that kid! But once again, moot point, because unlike grade school where you can move a child up in class, Zags simply can't move conferences.

We obviously aren't going to change each other's minds. But I will say your posts were a fun challenge ... I enjoyed it. Thanks for that.

CapeLookoutZagsfan
03-31-2015, 03:35 PM
A real outside perspective, greetings from Cape Lookout, NC, let no one BS you about your conference or how it keeps you down. I can assure you that when the Zag play, other teams know they will have to play their best to win. Being on the east coast we don't get Zag basketball until March Madness, but you guys are so fun to watch. I have spent over 30 years watching Duke, UNC, NC State play and you guys are just as good. So whether it is the WCC or the ACC, you guys belong !! Go Zags ! PS: My first and probably last post.....I just had to tell you how I felt about your team.

GrizZAG
03-31-2015, 03:54 PM
There ya go. This nice comment echo's what I ran into when in Raleigh. Those schools definitely respect Gonzaga. This guy confirms it. Thank you. End of story.


A real outside perspective, greetings from Cape Lookout, NC, let no one BS you about your conference or how it keeps you down. I can assure you that when the Zag play, other teams know they will have to play their best to win. Being on the east coast we don't get Zag basketball until March Madness, but you guys are so fun to watch. I have spent over 30 years watching Duke, UNC, NC State play and you guys are just as good. So whether it is the WCC or the ACC, you guys belong !! Go Zags ! PS: My first and probably last post.....I just had to tell you how I felt about your team.

Larrylegend
03-31-2015, 08:31 PM
Thanks for posting Lion kid. Unfortunately you fallen victim to groupthink of the morons who post on this board. Intelligent discussion is not welcome if you disagree with the idiots who continually post. It's fitting this is a Catholic University board many of the morons who posed were once part of the Inquisition and what have you burned at the stake for not believing their truth.

Gonzaga was extremely lucky to make it to the elite eight in only because a broken brackets. Few has an abysmal record against the top 25 and that's not debatable. But these idiotic posters on here would have you believe the sun rotates around the earth and gonzawgwa is that the center of the college basketball universe. Obviously Satan controlled much of this board and they all suck

Larrylegend
03-31-2015, 08:34 PM
Take me off this idiotic board.

Larrylegend
03-31-2015, 08:35 PM
Screw Gonzaga if you want a real mid-major follow Butler

GrizZAG
03-31-2015, 08:45 PM
Speaking of "idiodic", I believe it was you who put yourself here.
The Legend part of your handle is in your own mind dude. Goodbye

ZagaZags
03-31-2015, 08:56 PM
Screw Gonzaga if you want a real mid-major follow Butler


Take me off this idiotic board.

http://cdn.madamenoire.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/buh-bye.jpg

rennis
03-31-2015, 09:09 PM
Screw Gonzaga if you want a real mid-major follow Butler

WHO!?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

WallaWallaZag
04-01-2015, 06:34 AM
It's just too bad you guys are stuck in that conference. I would personally love to see you guys battle it out with big schools for a 3 month stretch. You guys would obviously rack up more regular season losses in a bigger conference, but I think you guys would have a lot more success in the tournament.

this is your problem as an outsider...you assume that the zags should have more success than they actually have had (likely due to a single team: wichita state) -- while all zag fans wish this to be true, zags have basically played to seed historically and if compared to a team like duke, gonzaga's performance versus seed is better.

gonzagafan62
04-01-2015, 06:38 AM
Screw Gonzaga if you want a real mid-major follow Butler

They are in the Big East now.... Sorry to burst your bubble.

DixieZag
04-01-2015, 06:40 AM
this is your problem as an outsider...you assume that the zags should have more success than they actually have had (likely due to a single team: wichita state) -- while all zag fans wish this to be true, zags have basically played to seed historically and if compared to a team like duke, gonzaga's performance versus seed is better.

This.

The perception has also been fed by the fact that we made our name on a magical run upsetting much higher seeds, at a rate that would be absurd to keep up.

We're hurt by Wichita, and the fact that we haven't won in an big upset in quite a while. We have had some minor upsets, OSU was favored (not by seed), we upset St. Johns in an 11-6, but it has been a while since a 10-2, or 8-1, which is a ridiculous standard.

WallaWallaZag
04-01-2015, 06:48 AM
It's a tournament of 68 teams. You are going to have teams that bust out early like Iowa State and Baylor, and then you are going to have your teams like Michigan State and Notre Dame that go deep. It's hard to try to take the theory of "you play better competition....." and apply it to the tournament. Because you are always going to have mixed results. My response to your question about all the teams from power conferences who ducked out early....they were all flawed. Iowa St is a jump shooting team that plays no defense. Baylor was overrated, they werent' even suppose to make the tournament before the year. In the end, you guys are just a better team than Iowa St, Baylor, etc. That's why you guys made it to the elite 8. But once you guys faced superior competition, I think your lack of experience showed. Duke has been battle tested for 5 months straight, you guys got battle tested for 3-4 games all year.

...and my response to you is that gonzaga is also flawed...zags don't have the perimeter defense to go up against guards like tyus jones and quinn cook...playing in the pac-12 wouldn't have made pangos stronger, quicker, or taller.

WallaWallaZag
04-01-2015, 07:17 AM
IMO, you guys would be better off being a #4 or #5 seed in a power conference, than dominating the WCC and being a #1 or #2 seed.

no offense, but this sentence alone shows how little you know about college basketball...
1) you have any idea how much easier it is to make it to a final four as a #1 or #2 compared to a #4 or #5 seed...???
2) zags aren't given a #1 or #2 seed because they dominated the wcc...it's because all statistical analysis, even the flawed rpi, indicate the zags are one of the top 8 teams in the country...there have been years when the zags dominated the wcc and got shi*tty seeds.

foo
04-01-2015, 07:25 AM
An Outsiders Perspective On Why You Lost

An outsider's perspective? I wish we could get a goat's perspective.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QL6Ws4i07is/hqdefault.jpg

Bing
04-01-2015, 07:40 AM
Anybody else feel like getting some tacos?

LionKid
04-01-2015, 10:13 AM
no offense, but this sentence alone shows how little you know about college basketball...
1) you have any idea how much easier it is to make it to a final four as a #1 or #2 compared to a #4 or #5 seed...???
2) zags aren't given a #1 or #2 seed because they dominated the wcc...it's because all statistical analysis, even the flawed rpi, indicate the zags are one of the top 8 teams in the country...there have been years when the zags dominated the wcc and got shi*tty seeds.

I actually know a lot about college basketball. Unlike you, who probably mainly watches WCC basketball, I watch about 20+ hours a week of basketball across all conferences.

Yes you are right, statistically, it will always be easier for a team to make a final four being a #1 seed than a #4 seed. IN MY OPINION, I think you guys would be a BETTER team if you played in a power conference, earning a #4/#5 seed, than beating the snot out of Santa Clara and Pepperdine and earning a #1 seed. Regardless if you are a #2 or a #5 seed, you are going to have to beat some high ranked teams to make it to the final four, so why not be the "better prepared" team and do it as a #5 seed? I mean at some point, a #2 and a #5 will have to play similar opponents if they plan on going deep in the tournament.

WallaWallaZag
04-01-2015, 10:20 AM
Yes you are right, statistically, it will always be easier for a team to make a final four being a #1 seed than a #4 seed. IN MY OPINION, I think you guys would be a BETTER team if you played in a power conference, earning a #4/#5 seed, than beating the snot out of Santa Clara and Pepperdine and earning a #1 seed. Regardless if you are a #2 or a #5 seed, you are going to have to beat some high ranked teams to make it to the final four, so why not be the "better prepared" team and do it as a #5 seed? I mean at some point, a #2 and a #5 will have to play similar opponents if they plan on going deep in the tournament.

...and you just missed the point completely because of your bias towards the wcc and evidently lack of understanding the seeding process. if the zags are good enough to get a #1 or #2 seed out of the wcc...they would be good enough to get a #1 or #2 seed out of any conference. if the zags were only good enough to get a #4 or #5 seed out of a p5 conference, that's what they would get even if they dominated the wcc.

HenneZag
04-01-2015, 10:27 AM
I actually know a lot about college basketball. Unlike you, who probably mainly watches WCC basketball, I watch about 20+ hours a week of basketball across all conferences.

Yes you are right, statistically, it will always be easier for a team to make a final four being a #1 seed than a #4 seed. IN MY OPINION, I think you guys would be a BETTER team if you played in a power conference, earning a #4/#5 seed, than beating the snot out of Santa Clara and Pepperdine and earning a #1 seed. Regardless if you are a #2 or a #5 seed, you are going to have to beat some high ranked teams to make it to the final four, so why not be the "better prepared" team and do it as a #5 seed? I mean at some point, a #2 and a #5 will have to play similar opponents if they plan on going deep in the tournament.

Let's bury the hatchet here. This is a never ending discussion. I will say I agree with many of your points. It does hurt GU a bit when we get in tough situations, for example Duke. Duke plays tight and intense matchups on a weekly basis and was definitely battle tested when the game was tight. GU on the other hand doesn't get that week to week. We had opportunities in that game to push forward and keep it in reach but couldn't hit the shots, hats off to Duke.

It would be great to be able to compete at a more intense level all year, but reality right now for us to change conferences is not an option, maybe someday. We will continue to build the best non-conference schedule we can to prepare us. Our problem is the middle to end of the year, it's tough to fit another premier game on the schedule at that point.

Everything you have mentioned, we already know, unfortunately it's a dead end discussion.

LionKid
04-01-2015, 10:32 AM
...and you just missed the point completely because of your bias towards the wcc and evidently lack of understanding the seeding process. if the zags are good enough to get a #1 or #2 seed out of the wcc...they would be good enough to get a #1 or #2 seed out of any conference. if the zags were only good enough to get a #4 or #5 seed out of a p5 conference, that's what they would get even if they dominated the wcc.

See, this is where I disagree with you. IMO Zags would probably be a #4 seed if they played in a P5 conference. Not a huge drop, but there is no doubt you guys would have racked up a few losses in the conference. And vice-versa, I think if you took a team like Maryland or Utah and put them in the WCC, they could probably be a #2 seed. That's just my opinion. I guess we agree to disagree.


Let's bury the hatchet here. This is a never ending discussion. I will say I agree with many of your points. It does hurt GU a bit when we get in tough situations, for example Duke. Duke plays tight and intense matchups on a weekly basis and was definitely battle tested when the game was tight. GU on the other hand doesn't get that week to week. We had opportunities in that game to push forward and keep it in reach but couldn't hit the shots, hats off to Duke.

It would be great to be able to compete at a more intense level all year, but reality right now for us to change conferences is not an option, maybe someday. We will continue to build the best non-conference schedule we can to prepare us. Our problem is the middle to end of the year, it's tough to fit another premier game on the schedule at that point.

Everything you have mentioned, we already know, unfortunately it's a dead end discussion.

Agreed. It's a dead end discussion. I realized a few hours after I made this thread that it would be a never-ending loop. I basically presented a problem that really has no solution. The only real solution I can think of is out of your hands, and that's the other WCC teams improving, making the WCC stronger.

WallaWallaZag
04-01-2015, 10:39 AM
I actually know a lot about college basketball. Unlike you, who probably mainly watches WCC basketball , I watch about 20+ hours a week of basketball across all conferences.

considering you are a visitor to this board, i'm not going to get into a p*ssing match with you...but as a guest, i also suggest you don't assume anything since you don't know anyone here...

based on your handle and the way you write, i've got to believe you're fairly young (but obviously with some smarts...and i apologize in advance if i'm wrong)...but watching 20+ hours a week of basketball across all conferences doesn't make a person an expert...it just means you have too much free time on your hands.

LionKid
04-01-2015, 10:50 AM
considering you are a visitor to this board, i'm not going to get into a p*ssing match with you...but as a guest, i also suggest you don't assume anything since you don't know anyone here...

based on your handle and the way you write, i've got to believe you're fairly young (but obviously with some smarts...and i apologize in advance if i'm wrong)...but watching 20+ hours a week of basketball across all conferences doesn't make a person an expert...it just means you have too much free time on your hands.

Sorry if I came at you hard, only reason why I did was because you mentioned in the above post that "i know little about college basketball."

I'm not young, i'm in my early 30's if it matters. And you're right, just because I watch "X" amount of hours of basketball doesn't mean I know more than another person. We agree to disagree, that's what happens on forums.

WallaWallaZag
04-01-2015, 10:52 AM
See, this is where I disagree with you. IMO Zags would probably be a #4 seed if they played in a P5 conference. Not a huge drop, but there is no doubt you guys would have racked up a few losses in the conference. And vice-versa, I think if you took a team like Maryland or Utah and put them in the WCC, they could probably be a #2 seed. That's just my opinion. I guess we agree to disagree. .

i'm sorry to have to continue this, but you've just totally contradicted yourself with this post...based on what you just wrote you're saying the zags are = to utah and maryland in ability and that the zags are only good enough to get a #4 seed out of a p5 conference...if that's the case, the zags shouldn't have made the elite 8 this year anyways -- just like utah and maryland couldn't.

and if that's true...then the zags didn't lose to duke because they play in the wcc...they lost to duke because the zags are an inferior team to duke and they should have lost just like a #4 seed should lose to a #1 seed.

FuManShoes
04-01-2015, 11:05 AM
LionKid, I don't know quite how to say it, but I do see some merit to the original post. On the one hand I agree the Zags are at a disadvantage as they simply don't face the same level of athletic opponents over the course of a season that many of these other top squads do. Who knows, maybe Pangos having to shake more of these long, fast, spirited defenders throughout the year would have better prepared him for what he saw vs Duke, but not sure that has anything to do with how the team as a whole performs in the last 5 minutes of a game. Karno and Sabonis seemed just fine when they wern't getting rung up for fouls. Wiltjer seemed fine until they denied him the ball because our guards were no threat.

The wins the Zags accumulate in pressure cooker gyms are legit, and the pressure they face is every bit as severe as if you have Duke or some Big 12 team breathing down your neck. Now, the opposing talent is not the same, but there are good players who present matchup problems and the atmosphere is tense.

Was any team prepared for that Dome, regardless of the conference they're in? Everybody but Duke sucked on 3s in that place. Even Duke only shot in the 30s. Duke has shot OK there in the past but the players on the team this year weren't in those games, so how does prior experience matter? Maybe it was for Winslow and Jones as it was for Bell in Seattle: a homecoming where they simply rose to the occasion. Conference and prior competition have no influence on that.

Where I disagree with you is on the notion that conference affiliation is something that will always hold GU back, or that there is much they can do about it beyond what they are already trying to do with scheduling. They have legit big conference teams coming in to Spokane for games and hit the road and tourneys to face those kinds of teams. What else can they do? They've tried to schedule tough games in Seattle or in February and things fall through or the team that's booked isn't as good as advertised. And the WCC is what it is. GU doesn't have enough other programs to make the jump to another conference. Geography isn't in their favor. So let's please stop obsessing over the WCC dooming the Zags to life as an Elite Eight team at best!

At the end of the day, the Zags were a few bounces, calls and made shots from beating Duke, being in the Final Four and matching up very well against Michigan St and then getting waxed by Kentucky - not because of the WCC, but because of the roster, the coaches and the experience they accumulated along the way. We'll never know. They lost because they missed shots and turned the ball over, not because of the WCC or the size of the school or who they did or didn't play in December or February. "Midmajors can't win the big one because blah blah blah" is so old.

Mr Vulture
04-01-2015, 11:06 AM
Let it go WallaWallaZag...I think you are reading way too much into what LionKid wrote at this point.

In any case, Gonzaga was better than Maryland and Utah this year, that is why they got the higher seed. What is forgotten with the P5 conference is that those schools don't attempt to play more than a couple games versus decent teams preseason as they have their league schedule. Gonzaga tries to play teams that are challenges in the preseason as they usually only have a couple of teams in the WCC that are tournament worthy. It really is just semantics but it get's lost in the shuffle. It's also not like the WCC is chopped liver either...it ranked on par with the American and ahead of the MWC this year.

LionKid
04-01-2015, 11:33 AM
i'm sorry to have to continue this, but you've just totally contradicted yourself with this post...based on what you just wrote you're saying the zags are = to utah and maryland in ability and that the zags are only good enough to get a #4 seed out of a p5 conference...if that's the case, the zags shouldn't have made the elite 8 this year anyways -- just like utah and maryland couldn't.

and if that's true...then the zags didn't lose to duke because they play in the wcc...they lost to duke because the zags are an inferior team to duke and they should have lost just like a #4 seed should lose to a #1 seed.

Just because two teams are the same seeds don't mean they are equally as good. Villanova was a #1 seed, are they equal to Kentucky?

Just because I said Zags would be a #4 team, doesn't mean they are equal to other #4 seeds. Your seeding is based on your resume, not how good you are. Tell that to Kentucky last year.

sittingon50
04-01-2015, 11:39 AM
I actually know a lot about college basketball. Unlike you, who probably mainly watches WCC basketball, I watch about 20+ hours a week of basketball across all conferences.

Yes you are right, statistically, it will always be easier for a team to make a final four being a #1 seed than a #4 seed. IN MY OPINION, I think you guys would be a BETTER team if you played in a power conference, earning a #4/#5 seed, than beating the snot out of Santa Clara and Pepperdine and earning a #1 seed. Regardless if you are a #2 or a #5 seed, you are going to have to beat some high ranked teams to make it to the final four, so why not be the "better prepared" team and do it as a #5 seed? I mean at some point, a #2 and a #5 will have to play similar opponents if they plan on going deep in the tournament.

Just checked the mailbox & still didn't get that invite from the Big XII. Rumor has it that Kansas is holding things up until they can get their Women's crew team up to the level of Gonzaga's.

LionKid
04-01-2015, 11:46 AM
Let it go WallaWallaZag...I think you are reading way too much into what LionKid wrote at this point.

In any case, Gonzaga was better than Maryland and Utah this year, that is why they got the higher seed. What is forgotten with the P5 conference is that those schools don't attempt to play more than a couple games versus decent teams preseason as they have their league schedule. Gonzaga tries to play teams that are challenges in the preseason as they usually only have a couple of teams in the WCC that are tournament worthy. It really is just semantics but it get's lost in the shuffle. It's also not like the WCC is chopped liver either...it ranked on par with the American and ahead of the MWC this year.

In my opinion, that is flawed.....because of you guys. If you remove yourself from the WCC, you guys wouldn't be better than the MWC. The reason why the WCC ranks as highly as it does is because of Gonzaga. Unfortunately, you guys don't play yourself.

But from an outsiders perspective, there isn't much different between the MWC, AAC and WCC. Just my opinion, all weak conferences. Gonzaga is clearly the best team if you combined the 3 conferences. But WCC is not deeper than the MWC or AAC. Once again, this is just y opinion. I have to say that a lot, because some posters on here lose their mind when my opinion differs from Zag nation.

gonzagafan62
04-01-2015, 12:00 PM
In my opinion, that is flawed.....because of you guys. If you remove yourself from the WCC, you guys wouldn't be better than the MWC. The reason why the WCC ranks as highly as it does is because of Gonzaga. Unfortunately, you guys don't play yourself.

But from an outsiders perspective, there isn't much different between the MWC, AAC and WCC. Just my opinion, all weak conferences. Gonzaga is clearly the best team if you combined the 3 conferences. But WCC is not deeper than the MWC or AAC. Once again, this is just y opinion. I have to say that a lot, because some posters on here lose their mind when my opinion differs from Zag nation.

Dang right its Zag Nation.

No we aren't killing your opinions. You're opinions have been variously thrown at us by a ton of different posters/conferences/media talking-heads. We are accustomed to that "theory" that you have brought us. When you start a thread with "You will never make the final four because the WCC sucks" we are going to back our program up with recent history/facts.

If you started it different, I bet you we would be more kind.

LionKid
04-01-2015, 12:03 PM
Dang right its Zag Nation.

No we aren't killing your opinions. You're opinions have been variously thrown at us by a ton of different posters/conferences/media talking-heads. We are accustomed to that "theory" that you have brought us. When you start a thread with "You will never make the final four because the WCC sucks" we are going to back our program up with recent history/facts.

If you started it different, I bet you we would be more kind.

You are right, I never should have said "never." And I'm sure you guys have heard the argument about the WCC a million times. I just feel bad for you guys, I would kill to see the Zags play a grind out power conference schedule. Once again, this is hypothetical (duh), but if you guys played in any of the power conferences I would have liked your chances to meet Kentucky in the championship game.

Birddog
04-01-2015, 01:31 PM
Unfortunately, you guys don't play yourself.
You want em' to go blind? Playin' with yourself is a sin, or at least it used to be.

RenoZag
04-01-2015, 03:41 PM
With pleasure.

The fact of the matter is I wanted to take you off "this idiotic board" last summer when you deluged it with your attack on the program over the Eric McLellan transfer ... which included your continued language calling the student athlete a "criminal thug". FWIW I did not consider your rantings against the young man, or the program "intelligent discussion". Quite the opposite, actually.

So Larry is off to join:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x375/RenoZag/Wankers%20Club_zpsdvgfbxsa.jpg (http://s1178.photobucket.com/user/RenoZag/media/Wankers%20Club_zpsdvgfbxsa.jpg.html)

Tis a pity.