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DixieZag
03-08-2015, 09:08 AM
I realize we are the 7th ranked conference in Kenpom (I believe?).

Is it possible that our middle teams are playing even better than their RPI indicates right now?

I question it because USF is 9th in our conference, and though we should have played much better in the first half, USF didn't look like a bottom feeder. And, SCU looked awfully tough against BYU. Portland beat SMC.

Is it possible that now at the end of the year, the middle of the WCC teams are playing top 100 RPI basketball - or am I justifying?

Ekrub
03-08-2015, 09:24 AM
They are up, but the #7 team still should be thumping them.

gonzagafan62
03-08-2015, 09:37 AM
They are up, but the #7 team still should be thumping them.

I slightly disagree. Third time we are playing these teams and their lives are on the line. If we were playing teams from different conferences say a bottom feeder like longwood or Loyola(IL) I woul agree. But three times on a muk it up team losing wiltjer for half a game along with many other problems, I say no. Especially with the pub and baggage gonzaga comes with

Ekrub
03-08-2015, 09:39 AM
I slightly disagree. Third time we are playing these teams and their lives are on the line. If we were playing teams from different conferences say a bottom feeder like longwood or Loyola(IL) I woul agree. But three times on a muk it up team losing wiltjer for half a game along with many other problems, I say no. Especially with the pub and baggage gonzaga comes with

You watch Nova vs. St. Johns?

gonzagafan62
03-08-2015, 09:42 AM
You watch Nova vs. St. Johns?

Yeah, but both teams are in the tournament and St John's ain't fighting for their lives. We're talkin bottom feeders. Did you watch Villanova vs creighton? That was just a couple days Before. Nova escaped.

TexasZagFan
03-08-2015, 10:17 AM
Yeah, but both teams are in the tournament and at John's ain't fighting for their lives. We're talkin bottom feeders. Did you watch Villanova vs creighton? That was just a couple days Before. Nova escaped.

How about Belmont vs. Murray State? Gutsy move by Belmont, going for the win instead of OT.

gonzagafan62
03-08-2015, 10:23 AM
How about Belmont vs. Murray State? Gutsy move by Belmont, going for the win instead of OT.

Totally agree. I watched that also. Great game. I hope the racers make it ... I think they'd do well. Sadly Bc of bias the racers will be in the NIT

TexasZagFan
03-08-2015, 10:32 AM
Totally agree. I watched that also. Great game. I hope the racers make it ... I think they'd do well. Sadly Bc of bias the racers will be in the NIT

Me too, much better than seeing the 6th or 7th team from a power conference.

zagamatic
03-08-2015, 11:06 AM
Totally agree. I watched that also. Great game. I hope the racers make it ... I think they'd do well. Sadly Bc of bias the racers will be in the NIT

There's no way in &*,/ that Indiana or other teams like them should be in the tournament over teams like Murray State! Things like this along with many other things are making it harder and harder for me to keep watching basketball. It's just sad how much it's become all about the money.

jazzdelmar
03-08-2015, 11:09 AM
I realize we are the 7th ranked conference in Kenpom (I believe?).

Is it possible that our middle teams are playing even better than their RPI indicates right now?

I question it because USF is 9th in our conference, and though we should have played much better in the first half, USF didn't look like a bottom feeder. And, SCU looked awfully tough against BYU. Portland beat SMC.

Is it possible that now at the end of the year, the middle of the WCC teams are playing top 100 RPI basketball - or am I justifying?


No.

JPtheBeasta
03-08-2015, 11:13 AM
No.

"No" to which question(s)?

I could answer "yes" and still be agreeing with you because there were contradictory questions asked. :]

DixieZag
03-08-2015, 11:39 AM
No.

Jazz, I think we should have won by 20 at least, had we started semi-decently.

This is not to let GU off the hook.

I do think the middle is playing better basketball.

gonzagafan62
03-08-2015, 11:43 AM
There's no way in &*,/ that Indiana or other teams like them should be in the tournament over teams like Murray State! Things like this along with many other things are making it harder and harder for me to keep watching basketball. It's just sad how much it's become all about the money.

We will see what happens. The chair Of the committee is a mid major guy (AD of Utah State) so again we will see.

LongIslandZagFan
03-08-2015, 11:45 AM
You watch Nova vs. St. Johns?

You do realize the Johnnies were missing key players, right?

LongIslandZagFan
03-08-2015, 11:46 AM
No.

Thanks for the detailed response.

jazzdelmar
03-08-2015, 11:59 AM
"No" to which question(s)?

I could answer "yes" and still be agreeing with you because there were contradictory questions asked. :]

The WCC isn't any better than most think. The Zags play down to the comp generally and this year on top of that something odd has happened over the past half dozen games. Pangos and Bell, in particular, are nowhere near the players they have been. Karno was brilliant last night, however. And so was KD.

Zags11
03-08-2015, 12:48 PM
I think wcc is down this year as no other "elite" team but zags this yr. Byu is close but that is about it. I think next year it will be a better conference.

Ekrub
03-08-2015, 01:06 PM
You do realize the Johnnies were missing key players, right?

Okay, then Arizona - Stanford. And I'm not buying the excuse that a tourney team is playing less hard than usf. They all want to win at this time of the season. People are trying to make excuses for the poor play, but the fact is the Zags just aren't playing well right now. Hope they can turn it around because early in this season watching them was a thing of beauty.

gonzagafan62
03-08-2015, 01:18 PM
Okay, then Arizona - Stanford. And I'm not buying the excuse that a tourney team is playing less hard than usf. They all want to win at this time of the season. People are trying to make excuses for the poor play, but the fact is the Zags just aren't playing well right now. Hope they can turn it around because early in this season watching them was a thing of beauty.

When was Stanford's last win? I understand your opinion, and I'm not justifying either (I think we would have won by 20 if Kyle didn't get hurt) hmmmm maybe I am justifying. As someone witty once said "you dont have to buy what you call garbage... But someone's garbage is someone else's gold" ... Yeah I don't think anyone said that either but oh well.

KStyles
03-08-2015, 01:20 PM
They all want to win at this time of the season.

I'm guessing they all want to win at any point during the season (point shaving scandals, etc. aside).

deathchina
03-08-2015, 02:08 PM
WCC may be the 7th best conference but there is a huge gap between 6th (SEC) and 7th. Last I checked the gap between the top conference (big 12) and the supposedly super weak SEC is smaller than the gap between the SEC and us.

Basically, we maybe be 7th but we are still miles away from the power 6.

jazzdelmar
03-08-2015, 02:11 PM
Thanks for the detailed response.

Concise, no like?

DixieZag
03-08-2015, 02:17 PM
Concise, no like?

Jazz, the motivation of my post was more how tough SCU played BYU. I think BYU was playing very good basketball when they beat us (acknowledging we looked terrible) and the fact that UP beat SMC. There is some "justification" when it comes to our play, but when I look at other games, I'm seeing teams that look pretty decent to me.

Yes, we should have dispatched USF early and by a lot. That's our issue and it is well-documented. I am thinking about the rest of the conference.

jazzdelmar
03-08-2015, 02:27 PM
Jazz, the motivation of my post was more how tough SCU played BYU. I think BYU was playing very good basketball when they beat us (acknowledging we looked terrible) and the fact that UP beat SMC. There is some "justification" when it comes to our play, but when I look at other games, I'm seeing teams that look pretty decent to me.

Yes, we should have dispatched USF early and by a lot. That's our issue and it is well-documented. I am thinking about the rest of the conference.

Like a lot of Zagiacs you want it both ways this time of year. You want to hear how the Zags are among the nations elite teams, yadda yadda, and yet you look for a pass when the team struggles with the WCC by grading the league a lot higher than most objective measures. If the zags are an elite team, and they were up to Memphis, they should easily outperform most of the WCC, save for an occasional SM or BYU better team. Gotta choose one. Elite, which is elite in all 50 states, or the slightly best team in a middling conference.

MDABE80
03-08-2015, 02:57 PM
It's us. We're not playing well. WCC is weak. But we played well in the OOC but now we're just not. This year, we're simply not playing well. If we're to excell, it's doubtful the league is helping. For now though, we should be winning by a wide margin. We're not. It's us.

zagamatic
03-08-2015, 03:30 PM
The big ten is the one that I can't figure out how they're getting any respect as a conference. Take Ohio State for example. They lost their only two non-conference games against ranked opponents in Louisville and North Carolina which aren't exactly the cream of the crop this year. Their best non-conference win is Marquette? I put the question mark there because their non-conference schedule is so pathetic that it's hard to pick out a good win. And in conference, they only have one good win away from home in Maryland. Add to this that they just got destroyed by Wisconsin at Ohio State and not only should they not be ranked in the top 25, but at best they should be on the next 4 out list and have to reach the conference finals to even get a sniff. IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY BECAUSE OHIO STATE FANS TRAVEL WELL!

DixieZag
03-08-2015, 03:32 PM
Like a lot of Zagiacs you want it both ways this time of year. You want to hear how the Zags are among the nations elite teams, yadda yadda, and yet you look for a pass when the team struggles with the WCC by grading the league a lot higher than most objective measures. If the zags are an elite team, and they were up to Memphis, they should easily outperform most of the WCC, save for an occasional SM or BYU better team. Gotta choose one. Elite, which is elite in all 50 states, or the slightly best team in a middling conference.

I still don't think you're totally understanding my point, but there is some truth to what you're staying.

Again, it was more about the feeling I got watching BYU and a whisker away from getting beat by SCU. With regard to us, only saying USF didn't look like a bottom feeder.

I think it can be both, the conference is better (in the middle) than appreciated, and we're not playing well, still.

BJZags
03-08-2015, 04:07 PM
Again, it was more about the feeling I got watching BYU and a whisker away from getting beat by SCU. With regard to us, only saying USF didn't look like a bottom feeder.


Could this whisker away from defeat also mean that BYU is really not that good either, and the WCC (save for GU) is in fact as bad as most of the nation thinks it is?

DixieZag
03-08-2015, 04:25 PM
Could this whisker away from defeat also mean that BYU is really not that good either, and the WCC (save for GU) is in fact as bad as most of the nation thinks it is?

Maybe. That is another way to look at it.

Outraged
03-08-2015, 04:26 PM
I realize we are the 7th ranked conference in Kenpom (I believe?).

Is it possible that our middle teams are playing even better than their RPI indicates right now?

I question it because USF is 9th in our conference, and though we should have played much better in the first half, USF didn't look like a bottom feeder. And, SCU looked awfully tough against BYU. Portland beat SMC.

Is it possible that now at the end of the year, the middle of the WCC teams are playing top 100 RPI basketball - or am I justifying?


The WCC usually is rated 10 to 13. So yes its way up on a whole. The scheduling of more home games helped. However, our tops teams besides us did not schedule and take care of business as well as they could have in the preseason. I am amazed at the skill of the young recruits on our opposing teams. With all these young teams in conference the WCC is a learning conference this year meaning they do poorly early in the season and get better and better during the season except for the older teams like us and SMC. We have some scary opponents next year. I think a Pepperdine, BYU, SCU, and Portland would give some big name teams a run for the money now. I think as a whole the WCC is not getting the cred it deserves.

seacatfan
03-08-2015, 04:58 PM
Just an opinion, but I think some here overrate the WCC to justify GU struggles in conference. WCC can prove how good they are in OOC (didn't do much outside of GU) and post season (remains to be seen). After BYU beat GU I was seeing people call them a Sweet 16 team. I think more likely 1 and done just like last year. Honestly BYU was better last year and they went nowhere. St. Mary's...they really haven't accomplished anything noteworthy this year. The rest...I just don't see quality depth. Any of them are capable of looking good in a game or two, but you have to look at the whole season. None of them have really done much of anything.

I've noted it elsewhere, but the excuse for GU's struggles that all the teams in the WCC know them so well doesn't hold water. Every single team in every single conference is facing familiar foes, literally everyone is dealing with the same thing. Not a legitimate excuse.

spike_jr
03-08-2015, 05:14 PM
I just don't see the WCC as any better this year as a whole. Others have pointed out how "statistically" the conference is better than last year (RPI), but I also remember the MW "gaming" the RPI. Also, I think some of the stats guys on the board project the WCC as 9th without GU in the equation. The top of the conference is worse from last year save for GU (BYU, SMC, USF are all down). BYU is only on the bubble this year because they beat us (the SMC strategy). If we would have swept the conference, as we should have, BYU's only shot would be to win the WCC tournament.

I watched the first round tournament games, USF/UP and LMC/SCU. It was almost un-watchable, just plain bad. Yes we get everyone's best shot, but sorry, we are head and shoulders above any other team in the conference. Who gets our best shot? I can't think of one team in conference that got our best. Hopefully that changes starting Monday.

Mantua
03-08-2015, 05:20 PM
It's us. We're not playing well. WCC is weak. But we played well in the OOC but now we're just not. This year, we're simply not playing well. If we're to excell, it's doubtful the league is helping. For now though, we should be winning by a wide margin. We're not. It's us.

It's been a while since we put together two decent halves.

The WCC doesn't look that great, but I think Santa Clara and Pepperdine will be tough games next year.

gonzagafan62
03-08-2015, 05:25 PM
I just don't see the WCC as any better this year as a whole. Others have pointed out how "statistically" the conference is better than last year (RPI), but I also remember the MW "gaming" the RPI. Also, I think some of the stats guys on the board project the WCC as 9th without GU in the equation. The top of the conference is worse from last year save for GU (BYU, SMC, USF are all down). BYU is only on the bubble this year because they beat us (the SMC strategy). If we would have swept the conference, as we should have, BYU's only shot would be to win the WCC tournament.

I watched the first round tournament games, USF/UP and LMC/SCU. It was almost un-watchable, just plain bad. Yes we get everyone's best shot, but sorry, we are head and shoulders above any other team in the conference. Who gets our best shot? I can't think of one team in conference that got our best. Hopefully that changes starting Monday.

I see your sentiment. It's a good evaluation for the most part, but Loyola Marymount sure did get our best shot when we started the game 22-0 or something out of this world. I also believe BYU go our best shot in Provo. Really hard to win there. Other than that I think you are right on who got our best shot. Although some non conference games sure did get our best (Texas Southern, St. Joes, SMU just to name a few) .... The mountain west by the way sure does game the RPI (Colorado State is a glaring example. I think St. Mary's tries to game the system but they haven't ever won enough games to accumulate. That's just my take on it. GU and BYU do a good job, but the rest of the conference sure does big everything down. Ugh

ZagLawGrad
03-08-2015, 08:19 PM
The WCC is weak. And not looking to get much better in the near future.

Robzagnut
03-09-2015, 12:34 AM
You watch Nova vs. St. Johns?

Yes. And if you watched it you would have heard that St. John's wasn't playing 3 of their players who were dinged up, because they wanted them ready for the Big East tournament.

And I'm sure Stanford is going to play a lot better on a neutral court when they're playing in a tournament with an automatic bid on the line.

jpn17
03-09-2015, 02:50 AM
Just an opinion, but I think some here overrate the WCC to justify GU struggles in conference. WCC can prove how good they are in OOC (didn't do much outside of GU) and post season (remains to be seen). After BYU beat GU I was seeing people call them a Sweet 16 team. I think more likely 1 and done just like last year. Honestly BYU was better last year and they went nowhere. St. Mary's...they really haven't accomplished anything noteworthy this year. The rest...I just don't see quality depth. Any of them are capable of looking good in a game or two, but you have to look at the whole season. None of them have really done much of anything.

I've noted it elsewhere, but the excuse for GU's struggles that all the teams in the WCC know them so well doesn't hold water. Every single team in every single conference is facing familiar foes, literally everyone is dealing with the same thing. Not a legitimate excuse.


I just don't see the WCC as any better this year as a whole. Others have pointed out how "statistically" the conference is better than last year (RPI), but I also remember the MW "gaming" the RPI. Also, I think some of the stats guys on the board project the WCC as 9th without GU in the equation. The top of the conference is worse from last year save for GU (BYU, SMC, USF are all down). BYU is only on the bubble this year because they beat us (the SMC strategy). If we would have swept the conference, as we should have, BYU's only shot would be to win the WCC tournament.

I watched the first round tournament games, USF/UP and LMC/SCU. It was almost un-watchable, just plain bad. Yes we get everyone's best shot, but sorry, we are head and shoulders above any other team in the conference. Who gets our best shot? I can't think of one team in conference that got our best. Hopefully that changes starting Monday.

These two quotes sum up my feelings perfectly. The WCC is bad this year, I don't care what the numbers say. The system is so easy to game, teams have been doing it for years. Conference RPI means nothing.

ZagsGoZags
03-09-2015, 03:55 AM
by one measure BYU is comparable, and I realize it is our existence that gives them a lift to some extent.
today the SOS for BYU is 87, SOS for GU is 92

titopoet
03-09-2015, 05:39 AM
You watch Nova vs. St. Johns?

You mean St John's missing their one good big guy and getting dominated inside by Novas bigs? When I tuned in and saw St John's up by 8 in the first half but without Obekpa, it was only a matter of time before Nova rolled. Without Obekpa, Gu would have rolled the Johnnies.

Kong-Kool-Aid
03-09-2015, 07:10 AM
You mean St John's missing their one good big guy and getting dominated inside by Novas bigs? When I tuned in and saw St John's up by 8 in the first half but without Obekpa, it was only a matter of time before Nova rolled. Without Obekpa, Gu would have rolled the Johnnies.

You watch Wisconsin - Ohio State?

That's the way a top team needs to play and dominate as it heads towards the NCAAs.

We are playing down, no more excuses about how tough the WCC is. There is a big gap between the elite teams and non-elite... at one point we all felt that Gonzaga was the former, now there is concern we may be the latter.

LongIslandZagFan
03-09-2015, 07:41 AM
Yeah, I have given up on the Zags too. Perhaps I should start rooting for Nova or the Badgers. They know how to play basketball.

hooter73
03-09-2015, 08:50 AM
Everyone looks great when we play stupid. If it was a consistent effort all the time from every team, the WCC would be better than it seems, but even BYU couldn't get past Pepperdine because the Waves (besides trending up) get up for the big name games and not as much for the others.

BYU incidentally is still not in the NCAAs according to the latest bracketology Ive seen. Does that mean the WCC is better than credited or worse with only one team in at the end of the year after the conference has beaten up on itself all winter long?

75Zag
03-09-2015, 09:16 AM
I will never give up on the Bulldogs and look forward to a great NCAA Tournament. I do think somebody could do a great psychology (or perhaps sociology) dissertation on the "koolaid - herd theory" on this blog. If I believed everything I read here, I would conclude that (a) every team that beats GU is by definition a "Final Four Team", because if they were not a "Final Four Team" they could not have beaten Gonzaga, and (b) every team that nearly beats Gonzaga is by definition an "NCAA Tournament Team", because only an "NCAA Tournament Team" could nearly beat GU.
It has been around 43 years since I took my mandatory course in "Logic" at Gonzaga and no doubt my reasoning skills have been diminished by the passage of time (not to mention 1000 gallons of Scotch), but even I can see that those arguments are not entirely "air-tight".

Go Bulldogs!

Once and Future Zag
03-09-2015, 10:39 AM
I just don't see the WCC as any better this year as a whole. Others have pointed out how "statistically" the conference is better than last year (RPI), but I also remember the MW "gaming" the RPI.

RPI can be gamed (as a conference) because it's a simplistic metric, barely more complicated than ranking purely off of record. - KenPom metrics can't be gamed the same way as they are possession-granular, vs game-granular.

To reiterate then, the WCC is the best conference outside of the power conferences. Yes, there's a fair sized gap between the #6 PAC-12 and the WCC, and yet the difference between the Pac-12 and the WCC is only a touch more than between the WCC and the Mountain West (the 12th ranked conference)

Currently Lunardi has the following in his bracket:

3 A10 (#8 conference) teams
3 AAC (#9 conference) teams
2 MVC (#10 conference) teams
1 MAC (#11 conference) team
3 Mountain West (#12 conference) teams

Oh, and only 3 Pac-12 (#6 conference) teams

Of course. :roll: Heck, based on their KenPom rating, BYU would be the top-rated team in 22 of the 32 conferences (including their old Mountain West). Even SMC would be the top team in 18 of those conferences as well.

Back to the WCC - the top 6 teams in the WCC are all top 120 KenPom ratings, and USF is just outside that at #142 - that's 70% of the conference being in the top half of all NCAA teams. And the only teams I would call out as poor quality this season are LMU and Pacific - since even SCU is just outside the top 50% of teams.

The issue with the perception is that all those teams 3-7 in the WCC are clustered in that "solid, inconsistent, but not great" range. If you couple that with a mediocre W/L record for whatever reason, no wonder the perception doesn't match what we see in these games.

If people are going to argue that the WCC is down, then I would like to see what data they are using for that analysis - beyond the statistically over-simplistic W/L records.

Even with this slump (and I do agree that our guys seem to be playing less sharp than they were earlier this year) - we're still only 1 of 6 teams that are top-20 in both Offensive and Defensive Efficiency.

TL;DR version

The WCC is better than it's reputation, and GU's in a bit of a slump. It's still good to be a Zag.

webspinnre
03-09-2015, 10:42 AM
The WCC is better than it's reputation, and GU's in a bit of a slump. It's still good to be a Zag.

Excellent analysis.

dan71w
03-09-2015, 10:53 AM
can someone explain to me how, other conferences get multiple teams in, if they are a "weaker" conference than ours?

75Zag
03-09-2015, 10:57 AM
can someone explain to me how, other conferences get multiple teams in, if they are a "weaker" conference than ours?

Because conference RPI is meaningless nonsense?

Go Bulldogs!

gonzagafan62
03-09-2015, 11:14 AM
Because conference RPI is meaningless nonsense?

Go Bulldogs!

I wouldn't quite go that far.

Take the Mountain West for instance:

Colorado State: Gamed the RPI system, playing absolutely nobody all year. (Mountain West conference also has a solid reputation)
San Diego State: True tourney team
Boise State: Played Wisconsin, and have some good wins, and also beat 3 WCC teams (SMC, San Diego, and Loyola)

IF YOU DIG DEEPER THOUGH:

All three of these teams have beaten for the most part all of their bad teams. BYU got swept by Pepperdine, Saint Mary's lost a lot of bad games, and only GU goes in with a loss to only BYU.

The Mountain West?

San Jose State doesn't even have a win over a D1 program this year. You read that right.
Nevada is completely terrible at 9-21
3 other teams (New Mexico, Fresno State and Air Force) are .500 or worse.... Fresno State lost to Pepperdine AND Pacific

Wyoming and Utah State are respectable (Wyoming was picked to go to NCAA Tournament, had a small injury to their star Nance, and fell off the cliff) ....

But yeah, if you look at the full body of work, yes our conference is easily better than the MWC

seacatfan
03-09-2015, 11:16 AM
can someone explain to me how, other conferences get multiple teams in, if they are a "weaker" conference than ours?

The selection committee is allegedly "blind," merely looks at the resume of the team being considered and not their conference affiliation. Hard to believe that is true since they are humans and not robots, impossible to check subconscious bias at the door. But anyway a team gets a bid to the tourney, not the conference.

Robzagnut
03-09-2015, 12:57 PM
You watch Wisconsin - Ohio State?

That's the way a top team needs to play and dominate as it heads towards the NCAAs.

We are playing down, no more excuses about how tough the WCC is. There is a big gap between the elite teams and non-elite... at one point we all felt that Gonzaga was the former, now there is concern we may be the latter.


Was that a Big 10 tournament game on a neutral court? And was it the 3rd time they've played this year?

How about Wichita St versus Illinois St?

ZagaZags
03-09-2015, 01:11 PM
Was that a Big 10 tournament game on a neutral court? And was it the 3rd time they've played this year?

How about Wichita St versus Illinois St?

Actually that was the final regular season game for Wisconsin and Ohio State and the game was played at Ohio State.

gonzagafan62
03-09-2015, 01:18 PM
Actually that was the final regular season game for Wisconsin and Ohio State and the game was played at Ohio State.

I think what he was referring to is:

Was that a conference tournament game played against the team for a third time? No.

Did you watch Wichita State vs Illinois State.

It was not a legit question. Completely rhetorical, from how I read it.

But words on the internet are crazy, right? I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so maybe I'm off.

spike_jr
03-09-2015, 02:34 PM
RPI can be gamed (as a conference) because it's a simplistic metric, barely more complicated than ranking purely off of record. - KenPom metrics can't be gamed the same way as they are possession-granular, vs game-granular.

To reiterate then, the WCC is the best conference outside of the power conferences. Yes, there's a fair sized gap between the #6 PAC-12 and the WCC, and yet the difference between the Pac-12 and the WCC is only a touch more than between the WCC and the Mountain West (the 12th ranked conference)

Currently Lunardi has the following in his bracket:

3 A10 (#8 conference) teams
3 AAC (#9 conference) teams
2 MVC (#10 conference) teams
1 MAC (#11 conference) team
3 Mountain West (#12 conference) teams

Oh, and only 3 Pac-12 (#6 conference) teams

Of course. :roll: Heck, based on their KenPom rating, BYU would be the top-rated team in 22 of the 32 conferences (including their old Mountain West). Even SMC would be the top team in 18 of those conferences as well.

Back to the WCC - the top 6 teams in the WCC are all top 120 KenPom ratings, and USF is just outside that at #142 - that's 70% of the conference being in the top half of all NCAA teams. And the only teams I would call out as poor quality this season are LMU and Pacific - since even SCU is just outside the top 50% of teams.

The issue with the perception is that all those teams 3-7 in the WCC are clustered in that "solid, inconsistent, but not great" range. If you couple that with a mediocre W/L record for whatever reason, no wonder the perception doesn't match what we see in these games.

If people are going to argue that the WCC is down, then I would like to see what data they are using for that analysis - beyond the statistically over-simplistic W/L records.

Even with this slump (and I do agree that our guys seem to be playing less sharp than they were earlier this year) - we're still only 1 of 6 teams that are top-20 in both Offensive and Defensive Efficiency.

TL;DR version

The WCC is better than it's reputation, and GU's in a bit of a slump. It's still good to be a Zag.

Sorry, but I have to stick to my opinion. There is no way to objectively compare teams (or conferences) year over year - there are far too many variables to calculate a meaningful result. But I can tell you, and I would also assume that most would concur, that the following teams are not as good as they were last year: BYU (missing front line but did get rid of Carlino), SMC, USF, Pacific (lost all of their starters and have a very young team). GU and Pepp are better. Portland is probably slightly better. SCU, LMU, USD are about the same.

If the teams (or conference) were "better", BYU would have been a lock for the big dance weeks ago with St. Marys and/or Pepperdine on the bubble. NOBODY had BYU in until they beat us, in fact, most of what I have seen had them just on the outside of the bubble and some still do have them there. No other team in the WCC has even be considered for the dance.

gonzagafan62
03-09-2015, 02:45 PM
Sorry, but I have to stick to my opinion. There is no way to objectively compare teams (or conferences) year over year - there are far too many variables to calculate a meaningful result. But I can tell you, and I would also assume that most would concur, that the following teams are not as good as they were last year: BYU (missing front line but did get rid of Carlino), SMC, USF, Pacific (lost all of their starters and have a very young team). GU and Pepp are better. Portland is probably slightly better. SCU, LMU, USD are about the same.

If the teams (or conference) were "better", BYU would have been a lock for the big dance weeks ago with St. Marys and/or Pepperdine on the bubble. NOBODY had BYU in until they beat us, in fact, most of what I have seen had them just on the outside of the bubble and some still do have them there. No other team in the WCC has even be considered for the dance.

And why is that?

Gonzaga lost one game in conference. To BYU. No SMC or anyone else got a chance to knock off the bulldogs.

BYU: Swept by Pepperdine, lost to San Diego, Saint Mary's AND Gonzaga. Had they not lost two of those, they would be a lock, and only once to pepperdine safely in. Plus lost to Purdue. BYU missed opportunities against Utah, San Diego State that would have locked them up for sure.

SMC: Lost to bubbler Boise State, Northern Arizona, Santa Clara, Pepperdine, and Portland for bad losses. Figure that in with a weak schedule, and you're not even close to the dance.

Pepperdine: Lost to IUPUI, USF, Santa Clara, USD and Portland. That don't help. You can have a bad loss, see Purdue (twice)... schedule better.

Conference being better has nothing to do with how many teams you get in. With the soft schedule of SMC (if they just would have scheduled better and won a game or two they would be in) .... They were still on the fringe bubble before all that.

Our conference can be stronger without sending more teams to the dance, and I blame the other teams for not scheduling better.

spike_jr
03-09-2015, 03:28 PM
And why is that?

Gonzaga lost one game in conference. To BYU. No SMC or anyone else got a chance to knock off the bulldogs.

BYU: Swept by Pepperdine, lost to San Diego, Saint Mary's AND Gonzaga. Had they not lost two of those, they would be a lock, and only once to pepperdine safely in. Plus lost to Purdue. BYU missed opportunities against Utah, San Diego State that would have locked them up for sure.

SMC: Lost to bubbler Boise State, Northern Arizona, Santa Clara, Pepperdine, and Portland for bad losses. Figure that in with a weak schedule, and you're not even close to the dance.

Pepperdine: Lost to IUPUI, USF, Santa Clara, USD and Portland. That don't help. You can have a bad loss, see Purdue (twice)... schedule better.

Conference being better has nothing to do with how many teams you get in. With the soft schedule of SMC (if they just would have scheduled better and won a game or two they would be in) .... They were still on the fringe bubble before all that.

Our conference can be stronger without sending more teams to the dance, and I blame the other teams for not scheduling better.

It may well just be me, but I think there was more parity this year in the conference but not necessarily improvement. BYU's schedule was definitely tournament worthy had they won more games. But apparently, they were not good enough to win enough of the games and hence were considered a bubble team at best. SMC's record may have been even worse had they "improved" their scheduling this year, but we will never know.

Kong-Kool-Aid
03-09-2015, 03:42 PM
I think what he was referring to is:

Was that a conference tournament game played against the team for a third time? No.

Did you watch Wichita State vs Illinois State.

It was not a legit question. Completely rhetorical, from how I read it.

But words on the internet are crazy, right? I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so maybe I'm off.

Agreed, Gonzaga is currently playing around a Wichita State level not a Wisconsin level.

I really hope you aren't comparing playing Ohio State at home vs. playing San Francisco (anywhere!)

We try to pump up the WCC to make us look better when it's really just not that strong of a conference.

Once and Future Zag
03-09-2015, 05:32 PM
Sorry, but I have to stick to my opinion. There is no way to objectively compare teams (or conferences) year over year - there are far too many variables to calculate a meaningful result. But I can tell you, and I would also assume that most would concur, that the following teams are not as good as they were last year: BYU (missing front line but did get rid of Carlino), SMC, USF, Pacific (lost all of their starters and have a very young team). GU and Pepp are better. Portland is probably slightly better. SCU, LMU, USD are about the same.

If the teams (or conference) were "better", BYU would have been a lock for the big dance weeks ago with St. Marys and/or Pepperdine on the bubble. NOBODY had BYU in until they beat us, in fact, most of what I have seen had them just on the outside of the bubble and some still do have them there. No other team in the WCC has even be considered for the dance.

Then what are you basing your opinion on? The "eye test"? This isn't figure skating.

Since all 351 teams p;ay by the same rules each year, you can at least use YoY metrics like KenPoms for "relative to the state of the game" type of comparisons.

Using that bar, BYU is a much more efficient overall performer than last year, as is GU, Pepperdine, and USD - SMC (a bit better) and PDX (a bit worse) are about the same - SCU is a bit worse than last year - and USF, PAC, and LMU are significantly worse.

spike_jr
03-09-2015, 06:04 PM
Then what are you basing your opinion on? The "eye test"? This isn't figure skating.

Since all 351 teams p;ay by the same rules each year, you can at least use YoY metrics like KenPoms for "relative to the state of the game" type of comparisons.

Using that bar, BYU is a much more efficient overall performer than last year, as is GU, Pepperdine, and USD - SMC (a bit better) and PDX (a bit worse) are about the same - SCU is a bit worse than last year - and USF, PAC, and LMU are significantly worse.

So if BYU is "much more efficient" than last year, why did we beat them by 4 games this year but only beat them by 2 games last year? Using stats to compare teams/conferences year over year is a bit sketchy.

PS - That is exactly why I detest figure skating. Sports should not be judged. Run faster, jump higher, score more points. Also, that is why I only look at stats as a side interest. Play the games and he with the most points wins.

gonzagafan62
03-09-2015, 06:34 PM
So if BYU is "much more efficient" than last year, why did we beat them by 4 games this year but only beat them by 2 games last year? Using stats to compare teams/conferences year over year is a bit sketchy.

PS - That is exactly why I detest figure skating. Sports should not be judged. Run faster, jump higher, score more points. Also, that is why I only look at stats as a side interest. Play the games and he with the most points wins.

Spike, we beat them by 4 games this year because we are much better ourselves. We weren't awesome like we are this season. We lost one conference game. Didn't BYU also lose 5 or six conference games last year including bad team like pacific. Also lost to a low Portland team (who also beat GU?) also gonzga got screwed on the scheduling last season. GU may have won more conference games if we didn't have to end the season @BYU @USD, @Pacific and @SMC in that order. That was mean.

Once and Future Zag
03-09-2015, 06:39 PM
So if BYU is "much more efficient" than last year, why did we beat them by 4 games this year but only beat them by 2 games last year? Using stats to compare teams/conferences year over year is a bit sketchy.

PS - That is exactly why I detest figure skating. Sports should not be judged. Run faster, jump higher, score more points. Also, that is why I only look at stats as a side interest. Play the games and he with the most points wins.

In one game - yes most points wins.

Over the course of a season, to judge how GOOD a team is, nit just how successful, performance metrics are needed.

spike_jr
03-09-2015, 07:01 PM
In one game - yes most points wins.

Over the course of a season, to judge how GOOD a team is, nit just how successful, performance metrics are needed.

Yes, over the course of the season, but my point is that it is a bit of a reach to use stats to compare year over year. BYU's lineup subtracted Carlino, Mika, and basically Austin this year and the statistics say they are better. I have a hard time buying that unless you are telling me Carlino was THAT BAD, which I am not sure I would argue ;). Your stats say the conference is better this year but I just don't see it.

spike_jr
03-09-2015, 07:04 PM
Spike, we beat them by 4 games this year because we are much better ourselves. We weren't awesome like we are this season. We lost one conference game. Didn't BYU also lose 5 or six conference games last year including bad team like pacific. Also lost to a low Portland team (who also beat GU?) also gonzga got screwed on the scheduling last season. GU may have won more conference games if we didn't have to end the season @BYU @USD, @Pacific and @SMC in that order. That was mean.

BYU lost 5 this year and last year. So statistically, BYU was much more efficient this year, but it did not translate into more Wins.