PDA

View Full Version : 2014/15 Zags better than 2012/13?



Section 116
02-06-2015, 08:05 PM
Local Associated Press writer Nick Geranios explores the question in this: http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2015-02-06/no-2-gonzaga-could-be-better-top-ranked-zags-2012-13

Nothing much new here but a good read! Geranios churns out some good stuff every season.

MickMick
02-06-2015, 08:32 PM
The starting five? No way, no how.

I recall Bilas asking aloud "Is there a 4/5 combination better than Olynyk and Harris?" He isn't asking that about Karnowski and Wiltjer.

The depth on the current squad is infinitely better and possibly translates to a deeper run, but there is nobody on this current team that can hold a candle to Olynyk. I think he is a better passer than Kevin Love, a better ball handler than Austin Daye, tougher inside than Josh Heytvelt, and extremely more coordinated than Karnowski. An extremely efficient player on the offensive end, one of the best in the nation, that probably wasn't used to his full potential. He could create his own shot and his range went out to three point land. He could execute the high/low pass as well as anyone I have seen. He was a master of the pick and roll. He could make his free throws.

KO alone makes that starting five better.

seacatfan
02-06-2015, 09:01 PM
Well when you compare the rest of the starters--Bell and Pangos both 2 years older and Wesley vs. Hart?--it doesn't look so obvious that the 12/13 team had a better starting 5. I know most people around here love Hart, but I always thought he was a weak link, they were playing 4 on 5 on offense whenever he was on the floor. Grabbing a couple offensive rebounds or steals didn't really negate that. He was a guy that would be great playing 10-15 minutes off the bench as an energizer. But when he was forced into being a starter...not so great in my mind.

And the difference in bench strength for this year vs. 12/13 is a landslide.

gonzagafan62
02-06-2015, 09:08 PM
Well when you compare the rest of the starters--Bell and Pangos both 2 years older and Wesley vs. Hart?--it doesn't look so obvious that the 12/13 team had a better starting 5. I know most people around here love Hart, but I always thought he was a weak link, they were playing 4 on 5 on offense whenever he was on the floor. Grabbing a couple offensive rebounds or steals didn't really negate that. He was a guy that would be great playing 10-15 minutes off the bench as an energizer. But when he was forced into being a starter...not so great in my mind.

And the difference in bench strength for this year vs. 12/13 is a landslide.

Agree. I'll take backcourt '15 and front court '13. Bench '15. Advantage '15, but I love both teams. Really fun to watch

hondo
02-06-2015, 09:19 PM
I'm not sure Harris was any better than KW or Sabonis. Both DS and KW are very, very efficient while being vastly different in their games. Keep in mind neither DS or KW are getting the minutes Harris got but what they are doing with the time they get is phenomenal.

DixieZag
02-06-2015, 09:50 PM
Sorta' mentioned but a comparison has to involve the difference between Pangos and Bell that year versus this year. Pangos is two years more experienced and able to drive the team without such scoring pressures. Bell played hurt every game in the latter half of 2013, he's healthy as ever now and really coming on strong on both ends. Yes, KO likely holds great weight, but isn't so much ahead of KW (leading scorer, like KO) and Karno (better defender?).

Plus, I think the scoring wing who also rebounds and plays sufficient defense truly makes this starting five better IMO.

maynard g krebs
02-06-2015, 10:08 PM
This team is clearly the better one imo. Depth and balance. The 12-13 team was easier to defend because there was nobody opponents had to guard at the 3.

Think about the Zag team that had the most success in March. Within a couple tenths of having all 5 starters in double figures. This year's team has 5 in double figures plus Bell not too far away. 12-13 was a flawed team, good as they were, and when Bell went down they were playing 3 on 5. Wichita's insane shooting aside, Olynyk, Harris and Pangos had a collective horrific shooting game in that one; too easy for a good defensive team to double up on a team with only 3 scorers on the floor and take them out of their game. I think the 3 of them shot about a combined 30% in that game.

This year's team is hands down superior imo, even if you consider the defenses equal. And I'd say with Karno in the paint, more perimeter experience and depth, this year's team is a bit better on that end.

TheZagPhish
02-06-2015, 10:14 PM
A headband was featured in more wins during the 12-13 season.

I'm actually not at all sure about that.

75Zag
02-06-2015, 10:23 PM
We will know in March - April which team is better. I love NCAA BB because you get immediate objective feedback. Is the GU team in 2014/2015 a 64 team? 32 team? 16 team? 8 team ? 4 team? 2team? or the #1 team?

We will know in 6 weeks.

Go Bulldogs!

kitzbuel
02-06-2015, 10:29 PM
Olynyk of 13 is better than Shem this year. After that, I think there is an upgrade at every other position on this year's team. A bench of Domas, Draino, Melson, EMac is a significant upgrade over the 13 bench.

So 4 out of 5 starters are better and the bench is better.

MickMick
02-06-2015, 10:50 PM
Olynyk of 13 is better than Shem this year. After that, I think there is an upgrade at every other position on this year's team. A bench of Domas, Draino, Melson, EMac is a significant upgrade over the 13 bench.

So 4 out of 5 starters are better and the bench is better.

With respect to KO, you do great injustice by just saying "better". The gap between those two is nothing short of huge. When the final game of this season is played, we will be collectively pulling our hair out over how easily Karnowski was stripped of the ball. His long, tall, slow, unnecessary dribble in the block screams turnover. Meanwhile, at the other end, a long armed gazelle blows by Wiltjer and scores at will.

You saw what the Pepperdine bigs did. They ran roughshod over the front line. Hart would have taken a charge or blocking foul and would not have let them set up so deep. Harris would have hip shoved them into the front seats. Those men were tough. Not finesse. Tough.

That 2013 starting five would pound this starting five. Physically beat them up while Hart snatches every 50/50 ball and KO scores at will. The current 2015 bench is infinitely better. That and the play of Wesley would make this thought experiment of a game a close one.

TheZagPhish
02-06-2015, 11:01 PM
Imagine the difference a healthy Perkins would represent.

MDABE80
02-06-2015, 11:03 PM
This team's a lot better and Kitz is correct 4 of the 5 are better. If this team plays defense, it's a lot better. Kelly's th eonly one who's better than the present center. Loved Elias but he peaked too early in his career. Bench this year is much better. Team chemistry is much much improved.

kitzbuel
02-06-2015, 11:15 PM
Who is the fifth "starter" on the 13 team? Stockton had the fifth most minutes.


I think Pangos, Bell, and Wesley are significantly better than the 13 version of Pangos, Bell, Stockton.

The strength of this years team is its depth, too. The steady onslaught of Shem, Domas, Wiltjer augmented with Wesley's slashing ability is something the 13 team did not have.

3XaZag
02-06-2015, 11:25 PM
In regards to Karno v Olynyk, clearly Olynyk has the overall advantage by a wide margin...however he is/was not as much of a true 5 as Karno is.

With all the designated roles filled so well with this current team, the overall value of Karnowski to this team is significantly closer to Olynyk than a direct comparison of their abilities would give you at first glance. karno performs the inside big man role so well, knows his role and his abilities and sticks with it (with one obvious exception of a mistaken shot clock).

The opposite is true at the 4, Wilter has the much better overall game, this difference is narrowed by Harris' excellence at his defined roles of inside shooting and rebounding. In overall effectiveness the two on two comparison is very close...but add in Domas and the case bloes wide open in favor of the 2015 squad..even in the frontcourt.

gonzagafan62
02-07-2015, 06:17 AM
With respect to KO, you do great injustice by just saying "better". The gap between those two is nothing short of huge. When the final game of this season is played, we will be collectively pulling our hair out over how easily Karnowski was stripped of the ball. His long, tall, slow, unnecessary dribble in the block screams turnover. Meanwhile, at the other end, a long armed gazelle blows by Wiltjer and scores at will.

You saw what the Pepperdine bigs did. They ran roughshod over the front line. Hart would have taken a charge or blocking foul and would not have let them set up so deep. Harris would have hip shoved them into the front seats. Those men were tough. Not finesse. Tough.

That 2013 starting five would pound this starting five. Physically beat them up while Hart snatches every 50/50 ball and KO scores at will. The current 2015 bench is infinitely better. That and the play of Wesley would make this thought experiment of a game a close one.
I mean I get what your saying KO was an all American and karnowski is not going to be anywhere near that but I don't believe the gap is all that huge. I agree with what you say about long slow
And not athletic .... If we were talking he last two years. This karnowski has actually shown dramatic improvement on keeping the ball this season. He hasn't turned it over MCJ and played absolutely outstanding against the biggest opponents of the year. Just because KO was flashy on the dunking and spiking balls into the stands doesn't mean the talent gap is as huge as you might think. Now KOs shooting I would def take his 3 point ability.... But we saw karnowski make a three this year... He is 100% this year hahaha

Reborn
02-07-2015, 07:21 AM
Kelly and Mt K are two completely different players. Karnowski is definitely a better passer, and imo so far I have not seen anyone who could stop him one on one. He draws more double teams then Kelly ever did. Mt K is also a better defender imo. The big giant inside does make a difference on the defensive end. One thing about Kelly Olynyk is that he took us all by complete surprise. WE knew he had redshirted, but I'm sure none of us ever believed that he would be as good as he was. For me it was mind blowing. I was in awe of him for at least a dozen games. And that year was so cool because the Zags kept kreeping up toward the #1 spot in the polls. That was fun. This season is completely different. We've been near the top for a long time. This team has not surprised very many. But they could surprise us in March. Hope so.

Go Zags!!!