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Zagricultural
02-05-2015, 08:52 PM
This has got to be a new low even for our garbage conference. Can anyone actually watch this game, and not see a clear agenda? SMH...

Once and Future Zag
02-05-2015, 08:59 PM
Give it a rest.

seacatfan
02-05-2015, 09:18 PM
It got a lot better after Few gave the refs an earful. This is an important lesson he should've learned a long time ago. It's what almost every coach does. You don't like the way a game is being called, feel like you're getting jobbed, get vocal and air your grievance. It works. If everybody else uses this tactic to help themselves out, then so should GU. It's not unclassy, it's the way the game works.

Hoopaholic
02-05-2015, 09:27 PM
the 5 second count was blatant. he only did 4 arm swings as he blew whistle....might need send him to math class

maynard g krebs
02-05-2015, 09:28 PM
Again, first half score management; give the home fans their money's worth. Life on the road. Second half they called it straight.

JPtheBeasta
02-05-2015, 09:41 PM
the 5 second count was blatant. he only did 4 arm swings as he blew whistle....might need send him to math class

Quick 3-second call on Sabonis, too. Maybe it is a relativity/time dilation issue. Anyone have Einstein's phone number?

I replayed that 5-count a couple of times just to make sure I hadn't forgotten how to count. I'm glad I'm not the only one with issues ;]

jpn17
02-05-2015, 09:59 PM
For the majority I thought the refs did a decent job tonight actually. When Gonzaga started turning the ball over the last 10 minutes of the second half and the crowd got into the game I thought they had a big time effect on the officiating. They started up the home cooking for SCU. But after half they were alright. Not great, but acceptable as far as West Coast officiating goes (this isn't just a WCC thing, the Big Sky, Pac-12, Mountain West etc all suffer from the same poor officiating and many of those officials will call games for multiple conferences).

DixieZag
02-05-2015, 10:11 PM
Is there even a theory on what PK did when he traveled while dribbling?

Sabonis just got mugged during one shot he made on the blocks, he even looked rattled coming back down the floor. Bad no call.

Not sure why they didn't go to the monitor on the out of bounds play.

Lots of WCC fouls. Weird.

RenoZag
02-05-2015, 10:17 PM
This has got to be a new low even for our garbage conference. Can anyone actually watch this game, and not see a clear agenda? SMH...

Wear a tinfoil hat much ?

WCC refs are consistent in their inconsistency. Agenda ? Horse poop.

tinfoilzag
02-05-2015, 10:18 PM
Is there even a theory on what PK did when he traveled while dribbling?

I watched it again in slo-mo. He switched his pivot foot before he dribbled and it was a late whistle. The call bothered me enough to have to re-watch it. Then I apologized to my dog for yelling,

SwainZag
02-05-2015, 11:25 PM
I re-watched as well. It was just a very late call.

The one that had me puzzled (and I didn't rewatch) is where Kyle drove in and was hammered, lost the ball and was surrounded by 3 SCU players and then he called for the loose ball foul. Did anyone re-watch that mess?

ZagaZags
02-05-2015, 11:35 PM
Wear a tinfoil hat much ?

WCC refs are consistent in their inconsistency. Agenda ? Horse poop.

http://legacy-cdn.smosh.com/smosh-pit/112010/horse-poop.gif#horses%20funny%20%20gif

Nevada Don
02-06-2015, 05:44 AM
Wear a tinfoil hat much ?

WCC refs are consistent in their inconsistency. Agenda ? Horse poop.

:000tens:

webspinnre
02-06-2015, 06:56 AM
To be honest, while it wasn't awesome officiating, it certainly wasn't an issue on my radar. I'm far more concerned about the turnovers and allowing them to go on the hot streak end of the 1st and early 2nd.

willandi
02-06-2015, 07:00 AM
My concern was that al;most every screen that SC set, the player setting the screen moved into the Zag players fighting past...after they had set the screen. It wasn't much, but a knee hipp or arch of the torso. It made it almost impossible to fight over the top. It was how some of the open 3's were made.

kitzbuel
02-06-2015, 07:15 AM
I re-watched as well. It was just a very late call.

The one that had me puzzled (and I didn't rewatch) is where Kyle drove in and was hammered, lost the ball and was surrounded by 3 SCU players and then he called for the loose ball foul. Did anyone re-watch that mess?

The travel call on Shem was even more baffling to me. The ref was clearly just watching Karno's feet and lost track of the fact that Karno started dribbling before he shuffled his feet. I even heard Few over the audio yelling at the ref "He was dribbling!"

Zagricultural
02-06-2015, 07:22 AM
To be honest, while it wasn't awesome officiating, it certainly wasn't an issue on my radar. I'm far more concerned about the turnovers and allowing them to go on the hot streak end of the 1st and early 2nd.

Many of those turnovers were phantom travels or offensive fouls.

EEzag
02-06-2015, 07:30 AM
Many of those turnovers were phantom travels or offensive fouls.

Calls were not THAT bad. Shem traveled. He lifted his pivot foot after he used it as such. It was clear that Keating wanted to make it a point of emphasis that our bigs would camp out inside; partially because they had no size and partially because we do (camp inside). He didn't have a choice.

Zag_Dad
02-06-2015, 07:30 AM
Wear a tinfoil hat much ?

WCC refs are consistent in their inconsistency. Agenda ? Horse poop.

There were some bad calls and missed calls... but, an "agenda"? Come on..Really? In the course of a game or a season, these things tend to balance out. A good team doesn't let a game come down to bad/missed calls, and that's what happened last night.

GO ZAGS

SWZag
02-06-2015, 07:30 AM
the 5 second count was blatant. he only did 4 arm swings as he blew whistle....might need send him to math class

There are three types of people in the world. Those who can count and those who can't.

Kiddwell
02-06-2015, 07:38 AM
Home-game teams get favorable calls sometimes. Maybe lots of times. This fan thinks Memphis got jobbed a bit in their weekend tilt at the Kennel. All in all, though, reffing's a tough thankless job.

Except here. Today. Kiddwell says, "Thanks, referee dudes! This bouquet's for yous'ns!" :adored:

And a poem:
<ahem>
Roses are red,
Punch to the mug.
Instead of that,
Give your referee a hug.

:]

hondo
02-06-2015, 08:59 AM
Many of those turnovers were phantom travels or offensive fouls.

+1

sittingon50
02-06-2015, 09:09 AM
SCU began fouling with :47 secs. left. So, if we take out their 4 fouls down the stretch & GU's subsequent 8 FT's we get:

Total fouls
GU 14
SCU 17

FTA
GU 14
SCU 9

What a hosing. What's the new Commish's phone #? Gotta' give her a call!

JPtheBeasta
02-06-2015, 09:58 AM
Is there even a theory on what PK did when he traveled while dribbling?



I think EEZag was referring to this, too, and I agree that it was a travel. If you look closely, it appears that he catches the ball, establishes a pivot foot, switches his pivot foot, then dribbles. There was a huge delay on the call, and I think that might have been the issue. I agree that he didn't travel when he dribbled.

Mu opinion is that the ref got that one right but the delay in the call made it look awful.

Nevada Don
02-06-2015, 10:01 AM
There are three types of people in the world. Those who can count and those who can't.

Think I'll have to borrow this line. I liked it.

Hoopaholic
02-06-2015, 10:10 AM
even the announcers called "homecooking" several times during the broadcast.....which had me laughing

it is what it is and the young men played through it to their credit, got a win and look forward to saturday

maynard g krebs
02-06-2015, 12:39 PM
GU's average margin in 5 home league games is 24.6. The average margin in 6 road games is 10.6. There is a difference between playing at home and on the road, but it isn't that much, especially for a veteran team that primarily scores inside.

These arenas are empty except when the Zags come in, with 1-2 exceptions. College basketball is a business, and the league wants to sell seats. That is better done when the games are somewhat close rather than being blowouts of the home team.

So yes, that's an agenda. Yes, it is what it is, and the numbers say so, as does the eye test. As mentioned above, the refs produced several of those first half turnovers. Foul numbers aren't the whole story.

sittingon50
02-06-2015, 02:03 PM
Not trying to pick a fight maynard, but unless Oliver Stone does a movie about it I have a hard time believing your concerns.

maynard g krebs
02-06-2015, 03:12 PM
Not trying to pick a fight maynard, but unless Oliver Stone does a movie about it I have a hard time believing your concerns.

Just my opinion. You're welcome to yours. Some agree with me, and maybe most don't. It's not really a concern to me; just an attempt to explain what I observe; it happens everywhere and has for years. Oliver Stone has bigger fish to fry than this, which is simply about entertainment.

Calls in favor of the home team are something that is recognized by most, though. There could be other explanations as to why. Mine is subjective, for sure. Why do you think it is? In another thread someone describes some of the offensive fouls as "weird", which matched my thought.

A good test of a theory is its predictive validity. It never crossed my mind that there was the slightest chance of a loss last night, fwiw.

sittingon50
02-06-2015, 07:10 PM
It's all good.

webspinnre
02-06-2015, 07:23 PM
Studies have clearly and conclusively shown that "home-cooking" is a real thing in college basketball refereeing. What I don't buy is that the league has a conspiracy against the Zags when it comes to reffing. It may be that the style of the refs doesn't mesh well with our style, but that's just the way it happens, not because anyone is out to get us.

Zagricultural
02-06-2015, 09:04 PM
Studies have clearly and conclusively shown that "home-cooking" is a real thing in college basketball refereeing. What I don't buy is that the league has a conspiracy against the Zags when it comes to reffing. It may be that the style of the refs doesn't mesh well with our style, but that's just the way it happens, not because anyone is out to get us.

By saying "agenda" I was talking about keeping it close for the home team not some conspiracy against Gonzaga. We have benefited from it at times, but I just wish they would call the game not try to manage the spread. My two cents.

Zagricultural
02-06-2015, 09:05 PM
GU's average margin in 5 home league games is 24.6. The average margin in 6 road games is 10.6. There is a difference between playing at home and on the road, but it isn't that much, especially for a veteran team that primarily scores inside.

These arenas are empty except when the Zags come in, with 1-2 exceptions. College basketball is a business, and the league wants to sell seats. That is better done when the games are somewhat close rather than being blowouts of the home team.

So yes, that's an agenda. Yes, it is what it is, and the numbers say so, as does the eye test. As mentioned above, the refs produced several of those first half turnovers. Foul numbers aren't the whole story.

Totally agree :)

jpn17
02-06-2015, 09:13 PM
There are three types of people in the world. Those who can count and those who can't.

LOL

webspinnre
02-07-2015, 07:43 AM
By saying "agenda" I was talking about keeping it close for the home team not some conspiracy against Gonzaga. We have benefited from it at times, but I just wish they would call the game not try to manage the spread. My two cents.

I'm about 95% confident in saying that "home-cooking" is not a conscious effort, but something that happens unconsciously. Otherwise you're saying that officials are intentionally screwing the visiting team. I know many officials, and I have never met a single one who intentionally benefits one team over another.

DixieZag
02-07-2015, 09:50 AM
I'm about 95% confident in saying that "home-cooking" is not a conscious effort, but something that happens unconsciously. Otherwise you're saying that officials are intentionally screwing the visiting team. I know many officials, and I have never met a single one who intentionally benefits one team over another.

Or at least one that will say it out loud? :)

Here's what I think it is. There are all kinds of competing pressures, that from coaches, that from conference officials, that from fans, tv stations, supervising referees, etc. All these concerns and considerations leak into the human psyche of each of them, most likely are genuinely unaware that it happens, but it creates some biases that arise in certain situations. Everyone will be different, some effected more than others. But, I think the biases have an impact over a season.

Zagsker
02-07-2015, 10:08 AM
SCU began fouling with :47 secs. left. So, if we take out their 4 fouls down the stretch & GU's subsequent 8 FT's we get:

Total fouls
GU 14
SCU 17

FTA
GU 14
SCU 9

What a hosing. What's the new Commish's phone #? Gotta' give her a call!

I don't care what the facts say, everyone can plainly see that the refs are out to get us...I watch a lot of basketball and in doing so I know all about officiating and the officials are getting it wrong

Sent from my IPhone with sarcasm meter set on 10

Zagsker
02-07-2015, 10:09 AM
Or at least one that will say it out loud? :)

Here's what I think it is. There are all kinds of competing pressures, that from coaches, that from conference officials, that from fans, tv stations, supervising referees, etc. All these concerns and considerations leak into the human psyche of each of them, most likely are genuinely unaware that it happens, but it creates some biases that arise in certain situations. Everyone will be different, some effected more than others. But, I think the biases have an impact over a season.

Or, teams will generally play better at home than on the road

hondo
02-07-2015, 10:12 AM
Just because we know that we are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get us.

MickMick
02-07-2015, 10:16 AM
I think I can recognize the differences between acceptable human error, or incompetency, or immoral bias. The first two use the assumption that one team is not purposely given advantage at the expense of the other. Easily identified when bad calls/no calls are distributed relatively evenly. On occasion the calls are skewed to one side, but one can't necessarily draw the conclusion of immoral bias.

In this case, I will go with a combination of incompetency and acceptable human error.

The only case of immoral bias that I believe I have seen this year was in the NIT in New York City. Allowing for players to get seriously injured is certainly immoral.

Zag4Hire
02-07-2015, 03:50 PM
WCC officiating: Don't care for it and never have. The road games are almost always the same but it is something you prepare for similar to when you go to beach, you bring sun block. Zags need to play a certain way for WCC road games. This is a constant and totally understand the venting but will it change? No. Is there an agenda? C'mon on now.

OZZY
02-07-2015, 09:21 PM
That charge called on Sabonis was absolute crap!

DixieZag
02-07-2015, 09:45 PM
Officiating at USF wasn't really slanted (some years, it has been), but it was just flat bizarre. Moving screens everywhere, guys crawling on guys underneath, but then calling off the ball fouls and hand checks 30 ft away.

The "T" was a little bit of payback for the Sacre "T" that essentially lost us a game, or at least kept us from coming back.

HillBillyZag
02-07-2015, 09:48 PM
My biggest complaint is that a big man gets no calls at all.

gobroncsgozags
02-07-2015, 09:53 PM
No conspiracy, just incompetence. I have said it forever... bad officiating most often helps the less athletic and talented team. This allows grabbing, pushing, moving screens, camping out in the lane waiting for a "charge," etc. All this is an effort to slow the other team down. It just happens to be that, in this crappy conference, every team is quite a bit less talented than the Zags. Now don't get me wrong, I would rather be in the Zags position (we are) than to have to play cheap and hope the bad refs don't call it.

CDC84
02-07-2015, 09:59 PM
A bunch of bad charging calls out there tonight.

Birddog
02-07-2015, 10:04 PM
A bunch of bad charging calls out there tonight.

The refs were calling fragrant fouls all night, they stunk.

Zagceo
02-07-2015, 11:04 PM
Give it a rest...

bballbeachbum
02-08-2015, 08:36 AM
There are three types of people in the world. Those who can count and those who can't.

that's four types

Zagsker
02-08-2015, 08:38 AM
A bunch of bad charging calls out there tonight.


I can only think of one that was a higher % block foul than a charge...other than that they were good calls...you can't just drive/run into a player and think nothing will happen

Zagsker
02-08-2015, 08:41 AM
The refs were calling flagrant fouls all night.

:confused:

DixieZag
02-08-2015, 08:42 AM
Or, teams will generally play better at home than on the road

Not mutually exclusive. I would put an *and* in that sentence, rather than *or.*

JPtheBeasta
02-08-2015, 09:06 AM
That was a pretty iffy technical foul call on SF at the end there, BUT it was a culmination of overly physical play that the refs allowed all game prior to this moment. I think many fouls could have been called on the Dons prior to this, so although they got this call, on the balance they had a net benefit when taking the rest of the night into account.

Few finally went to the zone, which neutralized the moving screens the were getting away with all night. On the other end, they knocked Pangos back as he was curling around a screen to try to get open on at least one occasion, and there were multiple times when they went directly into and through the screener, instead of going around.

This is not to diminish that SF did a really good job last night by playing hard, using some good defensive schemes, and knocking down a lot of shots.

DixieZag
02-08-2015, 09:28 AM
That was a pretty iffy technical foul call on SF at the end there, BUT it was a culmination of overly physical play that the refs allowed all game prior to this moment. I think many fouls could have been called on the Dons prior to this, so although they got this call, on the balance they had a net benefit when taking the rest of the night into account.

Few finally went to the zone, which neutralized the moving screens the were getting away with all night. On the other end, they knocked Pangos back as he was curling around a screen to try to get open on at least one occasion, and there were multiple times when they went directly into and through the screener, instead of going around.

This is not to diminish that SF did a really good job last night by playing hard, using some good defensive schemes, and knocking down a lot of shots.

Thank you.

I called this out on the game thread - the Don's moving screens were terrible, all night. And, I'm not sure a single one was called. I think it was part of the reason we went zone. They would shift two feet over and slam us way out of position.

JPtheBeasta
02-08-2015, 09:40 AM
Thank you.

I called this out on the game thread - the Don's moving screens were terrible, all night. And, I'm not sure a single one was called. I think it was part of the reason we went zone. They would shift two feet over and slam us way out of position.

I don't remember one either. On one occasion the guy not only set a moving screen, but gave a little push with his forearm at the end for good measure.

I had no sympathy for the incredulous SF players toward the end when some other calls went against them, because they were having it their way for most of the night.

willandi
02-08-2015, 10:03 AM
The moving screens were also not called in the SC game. Last night several calls of over the back were made against the Zags, and I thought they were the right call, but then they didn't call the Dons for the same thing.
Call the game the same way for both sides, for both halves...thats the best we can hope for.

Zagsker
02-08-2015, 01:37 PM
The moving screens were also not called in the SC game. Last night several calls of over the back were made against the Zags, and I thought they were the right call, but then they didn't call the Dons for the same thing.
Call the game the same way for both sides, for both halves...thats the best we can hope for.


Total fouls
GU-18
USF-24

FT attempted
GU-30
USF-13

willandi
02-08-2015, 01:40 PM
Total fouls
GU-18
USF-24

FT attempted
GU-30
USF-13

Did you watch the game? It doesn't matter how many fouls were called, it is how many were committed and were not called. Many of those called were in the waning moments too.

Zagsker
02-08-2015, 02:56 PM
Did you watch the game? It doesn't matter how many fouls were called, it is how many were committed and were not called. Many of those called were in the waning moments too.

I don't recall seeing USF players go "over the back" of GU players and not get the same call/no call


I do think the moving screens should have been called. I wonder if Few said something to them during the course of the game? Generally if a ref receives a complaint from a coach about illegal things they are seeing the refs will really look for it

MDABE80
02-08-2015, 04:39 PM
There are three types of people in the world. Those who can count and those who can't.

THAT...........is a classic SW.

dan71w
02-08-2015, 04:47 PM
I can give the benefit of doubt for some of the "charging calls" but the moving screens, and the shoving our players into said moving screens,,,,,,that was in excusable, they where just so blatant.

LongIslandZagFan
02-08-2015, 05:55 PM
At least the flops were not THIS bad:

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/2214034_o.gif

But I will give them this... they actually called the over the back that the Zona refs refused to call.

gonzagafan62
02-08-2015, 06:02 PM
At least the flops were not THIS bad:

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/2214034_o.gif

But I will give them this... they actually called the over the back that the Zona refs refused to call.

In that example the guy flopped before the wind blew... Wow

23zagmd
02-08-2015, 06:23 PM
One of the things they teach when you go thru the ranks of officiating is to have a "patient" whistle. The thought being, see it, process it, call it. Officials are always processing a LOT of information during a game; rules, game management, coaches, crowd, shot clock, substitutions, fouls and violations, players, scoring bench, etc. Most of this happens in a fraction of a second.....

I watched it again in slo-mo. He switched his pivot foot before he dribbled and it was a late whistle. The call bothered me enough to have to re-watch it. Then I apologized to my dog for yelling,