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View Full Version : Post Portland game thoughts + Karnowski



kreese555
01-30-2015, 01:30 AM
i haven't posted here in awhile, but I lurk basically everyday. With this in mind, I have to say a few things that haven't been said.

1. Przemek Karnowski will go down as one of the best big men that we've ever had here. He's that good. Think about it. His hands are buttery, his footwork could use some work but he works hard and keeps the ball, upon receiving, above his chest. That's day one stuff. Think about our past bigs. Sacre's hands were so small he was like Dante Culpepper but with a bigger ball. He's becoming more and more aggressive and is the most intimidating force we've had on the inside since...maybe ever.

2. Our offense today was awful, especially in the first half. There were multiple times where we settled for BS shots for no other reason than we were looking past our opponent.

3. No one wants to say it, but Domas is the most selfish player on the team, followed closely by Melson. Those two know how good they can be, and chuck everytime they get the ball. I have zero confidence in either of them passing when they get their turn. Still, I believe that sometimes your best players are the ones that are selfish (see AM), however this is a big concern if they can't dial it in by tournament time.

4. Eric McClellan is the real deal, and lends to the idea that no team is complete by February. With he, Perkins, and Silas continuing to grow, we have a great chance at going deep.

jazzdelmar
01-30-2015, 01:45 AM
Love the candor. Post again soon, don't be a stranger.

WallaWallaZag
01-30-2015, 03:09 AM
3. No one wants to say it, but Domas is the most selfish player on the team, followed closely by Melson. Those two know how good they can be, and chuck everytime they get the ball. I have zero confidence in either of them passing when they get their turn. Still, I believe that sometimes your best players are the ones that are selfish (see AM), however this is a big concern if they can't dial it in by tournament time.

i really wouldn't label them as selfish players yet...right now i would say that both of them are extremely confident in their abilities and therefore look to score whenever they have the ball in their hands. considering his field goal percentage, i don't have a problem with sabonis, but i think melson certainly takes some questionable shots.

ZagaZags
01-30-2015, 03:15 AM
i haven't posted here in awhile, but I lurk basically everyday. With this in mind, I have to say a few things that haven't been said.

1. Przemek Karnowski will go down as one of the best big men that we've ever had here. He's that good. Think about it. His hands are buttery, his footwork could use some work but he works hard and keeps the ball, upon receiving, above his chest. That's day one stuff. Think about our past bigs. Sacre's hands were so small he was like Dante Culpepper but with a bigger ball. He's becoming more and more aggressive and is the most intimidating force we've had on the inside since...maybe ever.

2. Our offense today was awful, especially in the first half. There were multiple times where we settled for BS shots for no other reason than we were looking past our opponent.

3. No one wants to say it, but Domas is the most selfish player on the team, followed closely by Melson. Those two know how good they can be, and chuck everytime they get the ball. I have zero confidence in either of them passing when they get their turn. Still, I believe that sometimes your best players are the ones that are selfish (see AM), however this is a big concern if they can't dial it in by tournament time.

4. Eric McClellan is the real deal, and lends to the idea that no team is complete by February. With he, Perkins, and Silas continuing to grow, we have a great chance at going deep.

If GU plays like that again, they will be a 3-5 seed.

jazzdelmar
01-30-2015, 03:17 AM
Melson appears to fit that noxious euphemism, a volume shooter. Back in the playground we called it chucker. Still, doesn't seem to faze Few. Would prefer he channel Chris Paul, not Russell Westbrook. While we're at it, Wesley should be more Jimmy Butler, less Klay Thompson.

ZagaZags
01-30-2015, 03:19 AM
Melson appears to fit that noxious euphemism, a volume shooter. Back in the playground we called it chucker. Still, doesn't seem to faze Few.

Melson will be fine.

WallaWallaZag
01-30-2015, 03:27 AM
both melson and sabonis are freshman so i expect shot selection and passing out of double teams to improve with more experience...karnowski didn't become good at it until this year if you think about it.

jazzdelmar
01-30-2015, 03:28 AM
Melson will be fine.

Mark? :)

Zagger
01-30-2015, 03:36 AM
both melson and sabonis are freshman so i expect shot selection and passing out of double teams to improve with more experience...karnowski didn't become good at it until this year if you think about it.
:) :)

GonzagasaurusFlex
01-30-2015, 03:45 AM
I agree with you on all counts except #3. I thought last night was one of Sabonis' best games yet if not the best. I saw him make a couple nice passes and love the fact that he looks to force the issue in the post when he knows he can overpower his defender. No problem with a post player looking to score every time he gets the ball down low... especially when he leads the nation in field goal %age.

Not so pleased with Wiltjer and Melson settling for long jumpers early in the possession. Move the ball around a bit first and make the defense work and look for the best shot.

jazzdelmar
01-30-2015, 03:53 AM
Spotted Jenks last night in the huddle and he looks very gaunt. Can't see him playing this year. What a shame, but let's hope the best is to come.

gueastcoast
01-30-2015, 03:56 AM
Agree with the sentiments here that the OP is largely correct except for #3. I think neither Silas nor Domas are selfish, but I also think they have different developmental issues. Silas is a chucker as noted but part of that is figuring out what his role on this team should be. With our senior guards graduating I thiink his role will be clearer next year.

Domas on the other hand shoots because much of the time he is in scoring position AND, unlike Shem, he's not a true "5" (dump it in and either score or dish it back out). He's a crafty guy in the paint and I would hope a guy shooting at his percentage would take shots when he gets the ball in and around the lane.

jazzdelmar
01-30-2015, 03:58 AM
Great pt, eastcoast. DS brings more to the table now than SM. He bounds, passes, blocks. SM in search of a 2d thing to do.

Birddog
01-30-2015, 04:00 AM
i really wouldn't label them as selfish players yet...right now i would say that both of them are extremely confident in their abilities and therefore look to score whenever they have the ball in their hands. considering his field goal percentage, i don't have a problem with sabonis, but i think melson certainly takes some questionable shots.

Agree with most of this, disagree with a lot of the OP's views. Karno is good this year but he hasn't been a phenom since his frosh year. Most if not all of Melson's shots last night were open looks and I'm betting he has the green light. Sabonis had a great game, how do you call a 70% shooter selfish?

Not mentioned elsewhere that I have seen is the fact that Nunez got yanked in mop up time, anybody else catch that? I think he might be sleeping with Snoopy.

jazzdelmar
01-30-2015, 04:13 AM
Agree with most of this, disagree with a lot of the OP's views. Karno is good this year but he hasn't been a phenom since his frosh year. Most if not all of Melson's shots last night were open looks and I'm betting he has the green light. Sabonis had a great game, how do you call a 70% shooter selfish?

Not mentioned elsewhere that I have seen is the fact that Nunez got yanked in mop up time, anybody else catch that? I think he might be sleeping with Snoopy.

Saw that, tough to watch a player immolate himself on TV. Sleeping with the salmon, more like it.

WallaWallaZag
01-30-2015, 04:16 AM
Spotted Jenks last night in the huddle and he looks very gaunt. Can't see him playing this year. What a shame, but let's hope the best is to come.

on a positive note, maybe the forced slimming down will eventually help him regain a little of the quickness/explosiveness i thought he lost when he went from colorado to h-prep his senior year in high school.

bartruff1
01-30-2015, 04:20 AM
Sabonis needs to take more shots.....that guy is money...

jazzdelmar
01-30-2015, 04:25 AM
Sabonis needs to take more shots.....that guy is money...

Spot on, Bart.......it's thrilling when he enters the game. Something good is gonna happen.

gueastcoast
01-30-2015, 05:12 AM
Not mentioned elsewhere that I have seen is the fact that Nunez got yanked in mop up time, anybody else catch that? I think he might be sleeping with Snoopy.

Yeah, noticed that. It's unfortunate. His playing time has diminished to the point that when he comes in, he takes bad shots, makes bad decisions, etc. all presumably out of a desire to maximize the few minutes he gets. Of course it then has the opposite result as it reduces his minutes further the next time out.

zagfan24
01-30-2015, 05:21 AM
Yeah, noticed that. It's unfortunate. His playing time has diminished to the point that when he comes in, he takes bad shots, makes bad decisions, etc. all presumably out of a desire to maximize the few minutes he gets. Of course it then has the opposite result as it reduces his minutes further the next time out.

I feel sad about the whole situation. I can't help but wonder how much of his play is due to his lost year of eligibility...if he's thinking "this is it...might as well go out firing." I think his combination of size and athleticism is unique on this year's team and could have come in handy against big, athletic teams. As of now, it's hard to see him getting any important minutes moving forward.

RenoZag
01-30-2015, 05:23 AM
Melson appears to fit that noxious euphemism, a volume shooter. Back in the playground we called it chucker. Still, doesn't seem to faze Few. Would prefer he channel Chris Paul, not Russell Westbrook. While we're at it, Wesley should be more Jimmy Butler, less Klay Thompson.

Earlier in the year there was a post-game video in which Melson described himself as a "volume shooter." Not breaking news.

Jstock12
01-30-2015, 05:38 AM
Earlier in the year there was a post-game video in which Melson described himself as a "volume shooter." Not breaking news.

Such a dumb concept...

http://i.imgur.com/IQSK4Qy.gif

GonzagasaurusFlex
01-30-2015, 05:54 AM
Yeah, noticed that. It's unfortunate. His playing time has diminished to the point that when he comes in, he takes bad shots, makes bad decisions, etc. all presumably out of a desire to maximize the few minutes he gets. Of course it then has the opposite result as it reduces his minutes further the next time out.

I definitely noticed Nunez getting yanked during mop-up time, and I was glad to see it. You are more charitable than I, gueastcoast. Rather than trying to maximize the few minutes he gets, I see AN's decision to jack up 3's as soon as he touches the ball pretty much like flipping the bird to his coaches and teammates. Like most things in life, the answer probably is in the middle somewhere.

Ekrub
01-30-2015, 06:02 AM
Don't agree with the idea that Sabonis or Melson are selfish. When you are shooting 70% you aren't taking selfish shots, you are taking smart shots. Melson mostly takes open threes and I'd say few will always invite that shot from a player like Melson

zag67
01-30-2015, 06:20 AM
I also would have to say that Nunez has been hurting his playing time. Even the few minutes could be fun but launching shots every time you touch the ball is not the right way. I also think that the loss of the year has hurt his ego and therefore is frustrated.

Zags11
01-30-2015, 06:23 AM
Portland seems to give us issues but credit our staff for the half time adjustments. With nunez, he knows his time is minimal, gone, fleeting, ghostly, etc. He looks like that player who wants to get his shot up. I know instantly that he is gonna fire most the time but in same sense, we cheer for the griffins,baks to shoot every chance.

It is a bummer of a deal but in the end we are 21 and 1..

Goshzagit
01-30-2015, 06:28 AM
Don't agree with the idea that Sabonis or Melson are selfish. When you are shooting 70% you aren't taking selfish shots, you are taking smart shots. Melson mostly takes open threes and I'd say few will always invite that shot from a player like Melson

If anything, Sabonis should be taking MORE shots. He's shooting 72% FG on 115 attempts! Go big guy go! Not to mention he's a 71% FT shooter and averaging 7 rpg. He's had 2 double doubles in his last 4 games. Many of his "shots" are offensive put-backs anyway. He's rarely doubled, so...not following the OP on this...

Melson is fine. He's a good shooter. He should shoot -- when its the best shot. Last night he wasn't good at all. Needs to be said the kid has no clue, zero, zilch, how to pass the ball inside within a half-court set. Even when he passes the ball, its typically low, off the mark and fumbled as a result. The bigs can't make their move when they are forced reach too far or too low. When Melson receives a "kick out" via post player, he ALWAYS shoots. Every time. Predictable. Occasionally, the re-post with Wiltjer, Domas, Karno is the better play. Wide open. The double team sluffs off, they secure better position, etc. Silas needs to learn to pass it BACK to the bigs. Nope. Not even a look-see, only at the hoop.

When Melson does pass, it appears to pain him, as if he's forced to because he has no choice.

A little overly confident in his abilities at such an early stage. This can also work against you or the team. Yes, you want moxie and swagger, yet you want a teammate too. If he doesn't learn to play within the realm of the team in his LIMITED minutes, and learning to pass on a "good" shoot for a "better" shot, he could ultimately cost us. When you miss 3pt shots with your bigs posted underneath, it leads to transition and momentum for opposing teams, especially Top-25 teams. Can't afford dumb chucks in NCAA Tourney.

zagfan24
01-30-2015, 06:35 AM
Don't agree with the idea that Sabonis or Melson are selfish. When you are shooting 70% you aren't taking selfish shots, you are taking smart shots. Melson mostly takes open threes and I'd say few will always invite that shot from a player like Melson

Agree 100%. Nice post.

A few other post game thoughts:

Karno adjusted nicely this game. Early on I thought he hesitated and/or put the ball on the floor unnecessarily when the double or triple team came. He made some nice passes but also made his post moves with a bit more urgency which was great.

The 3 position is so much stronger for this year's Zags team. Both Wesley and Dranginis really do everything you want out of that position.

Only 11 turnovers was nice to see. The Zags play very efficient offensively, so if they can keep the turnovers down, they will be tough to beat.

Only 28 total fouls called...a much better game flow than some other WCC games, IMO.

bartruff1
01-30-2015, 06:42 AM
Silas is Thursday's Child.....has far to go....it remains to be seen if he can reach his potential within Marks system.....he has a longer rope than most.....

RenoZag
01-30-2015, 06:48 AM
Such a dumb concept...

http://i.imgur.com/IQSK4Qy.gif

Tell that to Melson then.

webspinnre
01-30-2015, 07:18 AM
If anything, Sabonis should be taking MORE shots. He's shooting 72% FG on 115 attempts! Go big guy go! Not to mention he's a 71% FT shooter and averaging 7 rpg. He's had 2 double doubles in his last 4 games. Many of his "shots" are offensive put-backs anyway. He's rarely doubled, so...not following the OP on this...


Exactly. If someone is shooting 70+% they should be shooting more, not less.

CDC84
01-30-2015, 07:29 AM
On a semi-related note, why did Reveno stop all the double and triple teams on GU's bigs in the 2nd half when it worked so brilliantly in the 1st half? I realize that Few set up some action in the 2nd half where he had Wiltjer out of the perimeter to negate some of the double teaming, but still.........

TheGonzagaFactor
01-30-2015, 07:32 AM
I like what Melson did last night. We are overreacting to him missing a few shots. He went 2-8 shooting with 3 steals, 3 boards, an assist and no turnovers. Played good defense with high effort as usual.

When the other team is frantically triple teaming the post, why in the world would we want him to pass it back in? They are just going to triple again...

We keep hearing this team is so great offensively because we have awesome post players and shooters to compliment them. The whole point of this is that if a double/triple team happens in the post, we can pass the ball out for an open 3. They just weren't falling. We didn't have a good night shooting the ball. I like that he had the courage to take some shots when the offense was stagnant. We need someone besides Kevin to show they can hit 3s consistently, or a good team is going to hold us to 40 points in a tourney game just by triple teaming the post. Let Silas get his shots, he needs the experience. If he makes a decent percantage down the stretch and Gary starts shooting with any shred of consistency, which I think he will, those triple teams won't be an option and we will be unstoppable.

Few puts Silas into the game to provide a spark on both ends. He's not put in there just to play defense and pass the ball. We didn't even have a plan for Silas this season until 2 months ago He's only played in 17 college games. I'm sure Few told him to shoot when he's open and he is doing just that. If he becomes too passive, our offense will be clunky and one-dimensional, leading to a first weekend loss.

Bottom line is I don't like to criticize any players when we win by 20 while holding our opponent under 50.

zagfan24
01-30-2015, 07:33 AM
Kevin Pangos freshman year: 43% FG, 40% 3PT
Silas Melson freshman year (thus far: 45% FG, 37% 3PT

I think Melson's just fine.

GonzagasaurusFlex
01-30-2015, 07:40 AM
I also would have to say that Nunez has been hurting his playing time. Even the few minutes could be fun but launching shots every time you touch the ball is not the right way. I also think that the loss of the year has hurt his ego and therefore is frustrated.

Did I miss the NCAA ruling that Nunez is not eligible next year? I thought there is still a chance the NCAA will grant him one more year....

DixieZag
01-30-2015, 07:40 AM
I am not sure that Melson has proven to have the type of 3 pt consistency to justify the volume of 3 pt shots he takes. He has had games where he was red hot and had games where he couldn't buy one. True, all guys do, but not all guys are surrounded by amazing 3 pt shooters. When a team has Pangos, Wiltjer, Bell, and even Wesley of late, it doesn't need another 3 pt shooter enough to justify the volume of his shots. True, most are wide open, but there have been some cringe moments when he has shot a little too often.

Yes, I want Sabonis putting a lot of shots up. My only hope is that he continues to work on passing it back out to open 3s from Kevin, Wllt, or Bell, b/c wide open 3s from those guys is never a gad shot.

GrizZAG
01-30-2015, 07:55 AM
Perfect!
Remember, Melson is the GB of next year so hopefully his % improves. He needs that game time to get settled. We know he can shoot.


Don't agree with the idea that Sabonis or Melson are selfish. When you are shooting 70% you aren't taking selfish shots, you are taking smart shots. Melson mostly takes open threes and I'd say few will always invite that shot from a player like Melson

bballbeachbum
01-30-2015, 08:05 AM
maybe Few told Silas to be aggressive and 'chuck' it and look for that shot? don't know if it's true but wouldn't be the craziest possibility. whatever it is he unsurprisingly looks like a freshman sometimes, with talent all can see, but still a freshman. certainly plenty of room for improvement on both ends of the floor imo and looking forward to watching him develop. love that part of college basketball, following the development of players and programs year by year. we'll see with Silas

same with Domas but look how he's developed just this year. different challenge on Saturday and I'm excited to see how it will translate against it. will he collect soft fouls and thus limit his effectiveness or will he show a maturity in that regard because Memphis will want to find out too

gonzagafan62
01-30-2015, 08:07 AM
On a semi-related note, why did Reveno stop all the double and triple teams on GU's bigs in the 2nd half when it worked so brilliantly in the 1st half? I realize that Few set up some action in the 2nd half where he had Wiltjer out of the perimeter to negate some of the double teaming, but still.........

One coach is better at halftime adjustments than the other.

TexasZag
01-30-2015, 08:15 AM
Melson appears to fit that noxious euphemism, a volume shooter...Would prefer he channel Chris Paul, not Russell Westbrook.

Melson is a 2-guard, not a point, so I don't know that he has a Chris Paul mentality that he can channel. That would be a learned skill, which takes a lot of time to commit to instinct.

CdAZagFan
01-30-2015, 08:21 AM
I felt the same way about Domas earlier in the season - pretty much knew if he touched it, he was going to put it up (not necessarily a bad thing, however). But I've seen him make some good passes as the season is going along so I think he is going to be very well rounded as his career goes on.

Reborn
01-30-2015, 08:43 AM
Thanks for posting this thread kreese: I was too tired last night to post and was hoping someone else would because I know that fans like to post after the game. I don't understand the criticisms of either Sabonis or Melson, and especially the criticisms of Melson because there were so many. I have never liked criticism that is unjustified, and criticizing these guys shows how blind some fans are, or that they just need to criticize someone because they have this negative streak in them. To say that Melson never passes the ball is the most bias statement I've ever read. Those who made it certainly do not have eyes that see what is going on in a game. He handled the point guard position last night for long periods of time. And I thought he handled it quite well. He does have confidence and even poise and some of you want to try to destroy that. Shame on you. He had no turnovers last night in 16 minutes. If he's playing the point I would certainly say that he passed the ball a lot. After reading those posts that were criticizing him for being a "gunner" I would have thought that he had taken like ten 3's. My God, he took three. And he was WIDE OPEN on every one of them. WIDE OPEN!!! And you want a very good player who CAN score pass up wide open shots? What do you want? Another Coleman? The Zags did not shoot well last night, that was obvious. So what do you want to do, blame it on a freshman. Geeeze!!!

And the criticism of Sabonis as being a gunner is equally insane. Sabonis gets a double-double last night and shoots 60% and you want to call him a gunner. Yes I know you didn't call these guys gunners......but you may as well have. You call them selfish which is just as pathetic. Sabonis shot 3-5, and that's being selfish? What game were you watching? He was also 7-7 from the foul line which is damn good on a team that is not really shooting well from the line this year. Sabonis also did not have a turn over.

The Zags did not shoot well last night, and it was frustrating in the first half. Yet they totally blew them out the second half getting the lead up to 26 points I believe before putting in our mop-up crew who is simply not playing GU ball. Once again they lost that beautiful lead that our team created by phenomenal defense. I heard the announcer say that in a 20 minute span GU held Portland to two points. Portland's two top scorers, Preseley and Sharp, had 9 points. Presley made three 3's in the first five minutes of the game because Pangos was slacking off some, but he never scored another basket the rest of the game. And Sharp made two 3's at the end of the game when the game was completely over and our mop-up crew was in and not playing defense. No one scored in double figures. Seattle was ahead 60 to 37 with 3 minutes left in the game. Few put in the mop up crew. I absolutely love to watch this team play defense. They held a pretty good shooting Portland team to 29% shooting. And fans are worried. OMG

Go Zags!!!
One game at a time!

DixieZag
01-30-2015, 08:49 AM
Thanks for posting this thread kreese: I was too tired last night to post and was hoping someone else would because I know that fans like to post after the game. I don't understand the criticisms of either Sabonis or Melson, and especially the criticisms of Melson because there were so many. I have never liked criticism that is unjustified, and criticizing these guys shows how blind some fans are, or that they just need to criticize someone because they have this negative streak in them. To say that Melson never passes the ball is the most bias statement I've ever read. Those who made it certainly do not have eyes that see what is going on in a game. He handled the point guard position last night for long periods of time. And I thought he handled it quite well. He does have confidence and even poise and some of you want to try to destroy that. Shame on you. He had no turnovers last night in 16 minutes. If he's playing the point I would certainly say that he passed the ball a lot. After reading those posts that were criticizing him for being a "gunner" I would have thought that he had taken like ten 3's. My God, he took three. And he was WIDE OPEN on every one of them. WIDE OPEN!!! And you want a very good player who CAN score pass up wide open shots? What do you want? Another Coleman? The Zags did not shoot well last night, that was obvious. So what do you want to do, blame it on a freshman. Geeeze!!!

And the criticism of Sabonis as being a gunner is equally insane. Sabonis gets a double-double last night and shoots 60% and you want to call him a gunner. Yes I know you didn't call these guys gunners......but you may as well have. You call them selfish which is just as pathetic. Sabonis shot 3-5, and that's being selfish? What game were you watching? He was also 7-7 from the foul line which is damn good on a team that is not really shooting well from the line this year. Sabonis also did not have a turn over.

The Zags did not shoot well last night, and it was frustrating in the first half. Yet they totally blew them out the second half getting the lead up to 26 points I believe before putting in our mop-up crew who is simply not playing GU ball. Once again they lost that beautiful lead that our team created by phenomenal defense. I heard the announcer say that in a 20 minute span GU held Portland to two points. Portland's two top scorers, Preseley and Sharp, had 9 points. Presley made three 3's in the first five minutes of the game because Pangos was slacking off some, but he never scored another basket the rest of the game. And Sharp made two 3's at the end of the game when the game was completely over and our mop-up crew was in and not playing defense. No one scored in double figures. Seattle was ahead 60 to 37 with 3 minutes left in the game. Few put in the mop up crew. I absolutely love to watch this team play defense. They held a pretty good shooting Portland team to 29% shooting. And fans are worried. OMG

Go Zags!!!
One game at a time!

I don't think anyone is worried. I think people are fans. Fans like to note the really good aspects, while also noting certain areas that the guys might work on. The team is made of humans, no human is perfect. Part of being a fan is being right or wrong in noting different aspects of the team as it goes forward. That does not equate to "worry."

mgadfly
01-30-2015, 08:51 AM
I don't think there is any evidence to support the suggestion Domas is the most selfish player on the team. He is shooting above 70%. He has taken 0 three pointers this season (and barely any mid-range shots). Virtually all of his action is at the rim (I'd be gouging my eyeballs out if he had the ball a foot from the rim, no double team, but instead politely looked around for someone to pass it to). When he is on the court he takes 16.8% of our shots (that's less than his share and he is the #1 FG % shooter in the nation - compare that to Wiljer who takes more than 32% of the shots). That includes attempts DS earns by being one of the best offensive rebounders (11.9%, 137th overall) in the country (and did somebody mention he is only a freshman?). He is 54th in the country in O-Rating. Recently Karno passed him up on the assist rate, and he could do better there, but it isn't like his 9% Assist Rate from the block is comparable to say Melson's 4% from the perimeter.

I'd also say that last night's game isn't an example of why we might be a 3 to 4 seed (if we play offensively like that again) but is an example of what is different this year. The refs weren't calling anything (suddenly we were playing Big 10 basketball!) and we adjusted and became more physical with stifling defense. By the way, we are top 20 in D-Rating as a team now. That ability to dial up the physicality is something that I think we've missed from time to time. This year we seem to have some pretty...pretty... pretty aggressive guys that can play tournament (where whistles get swallowed) basketball. Maybe we can bust through to the second weekend again.

gonstu
01-30-2015, 08:51 AM
Thanks for posting this thread kreese: I was too tired last night to post and was hoping someone else would because I know that fans like to post after the game. I don't understand the criticisms of either Sabonis or Melson, and especially the criticisms of Melson because there were so many. I have never liked criticism that is unjustified, and criticizing these guys shows how blind some fans are, or that they just need to criticize someone because they have this negative streak in them. To say that Melson never passes the ball is the most bias statement I've ever read. Those who made it certainly do not have eyes that see what is going on in a game. He handled the point guard position last night for long periods of time. And I thought he handled it quite well. He does have confidence and even poise and some of you want to try to destroy that. Shame on you. He had no turnovers last night in 16 minutes. If he's playing the point I would certainly say that he passed the ball a lot. After reading those posts that were criticizing him for being a "gunner" I would have thought that he had taken like ten 3's. My God, he took three. And he was WIDE OPEN on every one of them. WIDE OPEN!!! And you want a very good player who CAN score pass up wide open shots? What do you want? Another Coleman? The Zags did not shoot well last night, that was obvious. So what do you want to do, blame it on a freshman. Geeeze!!!

And the criticism of Sabonis as being a gunner is equally insane. Sabonis gets a double-double last night and shoots 60% and you want to call him a gunner. Yes I know you didn't call these guys gunners......but you may as well have. You call them selfish which is just as pathetic. Sabonis shot 3-5, and that's being selfish? What game were you watching? He was also 7-7 from the foul line which is damn good on a team that is not really shooting well from the line this year. Sabonis also did not have a turn over.

The Zags did not shoot well last night, and it was frustrating in the first half. Yet they totally blew them out the second half getting the lead up to 26 points I believe before putting in our mop-up crew who is simply not playing GU ball. Once again they lost that beautiful lead that our team created by phenomenal defense. I heard the announcer say that in a 20 minute span GU held Portland to two points. Portland's two top scorers, Preseley and Sharp, had 9 points. Presley made three 3's in the first five minutes of the game because Pangos was slacking off some, but he never scored another basket the rest of the game. And Sharp made two 3's at the end of the game when the game was completely over and our mop-up crew was in and not playing defense. No one scored in double figures. Seattle was ahead 60 to 37 with 3 minutes left in the game. Few put in the mop up crew. I absolutely love to watch this team play defense. They held a pretty good shooting Portland team to 29% shooting. And fans are worried. OMG

Go Zags!!!
One game at a time!

Foreshadowing?

mgadfly
01-30-2015, 08:54 AM
And please don't take my comment as a slight to Melson. I am unbelievably excited about the prospect of Perkins, Melson, Sabonis and Edwards two years from now. Hopefully Sabonis stays three years.

upan8th
01-30-2015, 08:54 AM
Bullet points:

1. GBJ 0hfor on 3's last nite after showing signs lately of regaining former shooting touch. His psych, these days, as delicate as a butterfly's wings...
2. Karno shuffles 3 feet away from basket trying to get within two (or, one?) for shot. Unfortunately, that's called walking, even when designated by know-nothing, WCC, clown/refs...
3. NC2A launches investigation of funding source for Kevin's extensive visits to Divine Designs Hair Salon...
4. Domonis demonstrates remarkable benefits of recent Yoga instruction, bending like an Infinity sign trying to make a bunny from right side of bucket with left hand. Misses. Bailed out by foul. Luck apparently another benefit of Yoga...
5. GBJ atones for all the missed jacks by executing an impressive give and go w/Sabonis. The first between them all season. Love is a beautiful thing...
6. I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you, not to have seen a posting yet claiming: "It was ugly, but a win is a win." A beer to the first dude who DOESN'T post it.

That is all.

john montana
01-30-2015, 09:18 AM
Sabonis selfish? That is just crazy talk. I can recall two fantastic passes he made from the post to KD in last night's game alone when KD cut on the baseline. It is pretty clear that Shem, Saboni, and KW are supposed to attack if left one on one in the post. When doubled...they have ALL shown the willingness to pass out of the double.

Melson is a scorer, and is just figuring out where his shots should come. I don't see him as selfish either, just finding his way.

The only guy on the entire team that has seemed selfish to me is Nunez. He lost playing time behind 3 absolute studs, and responded by shooting/driving every time he touches the ball in garbage time.

Reborn
01-30-2015, 09:21 AM
Foreshadowing?

hahahahahahah good catch. I guess my mind is on Seattle a lot. No apologies for that..hahaha Thanks. I got a good laugh out of that.

Zagceo
01-30-2015, 09:22 AM
OP sounds like somebody's brother's in town and having fun at his expense.

Calling Domas selfish is what I call laughable if you've watched any games including last nights! Did ya happen to see the play that Domas made his dunk on last night? Go back and see how that play developed.

Silas is a stud and the more experience he gets the better he gets. Not to mention how Silas plays the passing lanes like a Louisville guard!

Shem is talented no doubt and our offense usually runs through him but I have high expectations for Shem and I've noticed on a few occasions he receives the ball on the high post and swings the ball automatically without looking to the low post. He's such a good passer and does it so well in close quarters what makes him avoid even looking sometimes to feed the post?

This team is special and I enjoy every game.

jim77
01-30-2015, 09:30 AM
I definitely noticed Nunez getting yanked during mop-up time, and I was glad to see it. You are more charitable than I, gueastcoast. Rather than trying to maximize the few minutes he gets, I see AN's decision to jack up 3's as soon as he touches the ball pretty much like flipping the bird to his coaches and teammates. Like most things in life, the answer probably is in the middle somewhere.

YUP....The sad thing is the guy is one of...if not the most athletic guy on the team. If he did nothing except his best impression of Dennis Rodman he'd get more playing time. He doesn't even need to play that close to his man on D because he's so long and athletic. The last thing we need is a PF hucking up 3's...we got plenty of guys for that. The guy just needs to stay home on d and gobble up the ball. The guy needs to find his role that helps the TEAM. His time might be short BUT, between now and the last game we are gonna be in trouble with a KY or such team and he may be the difference. Does he want to be the guy that goes out chucking 3's in the last 30 seconds of the game ORRRRR does he want to be the guy who preserves a final 4 win with an athletic block at the rim that saves a game.....and launches the Zags into a National Championship.. The choice is his. If I was Mark Few I'd get him in during non-garbage minutes against Memphis.....and NOT to shoot 3's.

Rebounds and Blocks are you're best friends Angel....and a dunks too...that's what you're made to do. DO IT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9pa_8-WdlU

Reborn
01-30-2015, 09:33 AM
YUP....The sad thing is the guy is one of...if not the most athletic guy on the team. If he did nothing except his best impression of Dennis Rodman he'd get more playing time. He doesn't even need to play that close to his man on D because he's so long and athletic. The last thing we need is a PF hucking up 3's...we got plenty of guys for that. The guy just needs to stay home on d and gobble up the ball. The guy needs to find his role that helps the TEAM. His time might be short BUT, between now and the last game we are gonna be in trouble with a KY or such team and he may be the difference. Does he want to be the guy that goes out chucking 3's in the last 30 seconds of the game ORRRRR does he want to be the guy who preserves a final 4 win with an athletic block at the rim that saves a game.....and launches the Zags into a National Championship.. The choice is his. If I was Mark Few I'd get him in during non-garbage minutes against Memphis.....and NOT to shoot 3's.

Rebounds and Blocks are you're best friends Angel....and a dunks too...that's what you're made to do. DO IT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9pa_8-WdlU

Nice post.

Zagdawg
01-30-2015, 09:34 AM
Agree with the majority here-- best % shooter should be shooting a lot.

Would rather have Melson taking the shots now and getting comfortable in games we win by 20 than later when we really need him to be hitting.

Agree about Angel-- I think Mark sent him a little message last night based upon his selfish approach by sending him back to the bench and putting in a walk on to close out the game.

Go Zags

Hoopaholic
01-30-2015, 09:41 AM
OP sounds like somebody's brother's in town and having fun at his expense.

Calling Domas selfish is what I call laughable if you've watched any games including last nights! Did ya happen to see the play that Domas made his dunk on last night? Go back and see how that play developed.

Silas is a stud and the more experience he gets the better he gets. Not to mention how Silas plays the passing lanes like a Louisville guard!

Shem is talented no doubt and our offense usually runs through him but I have high expectations for Shem and I've noticed on a few occasions he receives the ball on the high post and swings the ball automatically without looking to the low post. He's such a good passer and does it so well in close quarters what makes him avoid even looking sometimes to feed the post?

This team is special and I enjoy every game.

To the karno issue at high post, many times that is part of a designed play for a select player IMO, rarely is he at the free throw line extended for a true high low angle passing, generally it is Sabonis or Wiltjer at that spot when we are actually looking for the high low option.......

just my observations

HillBillyZag
01-30-2015, 10:33 AM
Few has done a remarkable job juggling available minutes and utilizing the talent of his bench. When your bench players are in several cases?, at least as good?, or arguably better?, than some starters? That in not an easy chore. In this fans opinion?, Kyle Dranginis, with his OVERALL skills, has been asked to make the bigger sacrifice. The staff recognize this, and he will likely start as a Senior. If he were 6'8" instead of 6'5"?, we wouldn't even have this conversation.

BTB
01-30-2015, 10:35 AM
My quick thoughts on the 4 players predominantly talked about in this thread:

Melson - This kid is going to be a special scorer. He has been taking mostly the same shots all season as he did tonight. When they go in we're all excited but when they don't we say he's a chucker. Does he need to improve his shot selection? Yes. But his role in the past and future is as a shooting guard, not a point guard like he's forced to play right. His job is going to be to look for his shot, not to set other people up for there's. He will obviously still need to improve his shot selection and assist rate, but that will come. I'm not worried about him at all.

Sabonis - Is already special. Next year he might average a double double off the bench. He would easily average one already if we didn't have a ridiculous core of super-talented bigs. His shot selection is fine and he will learn to deal with double teams better with experience. He's obviously a good passer, he just needs to learn the system a bit more and be able to find open men when he's pressured.

Karnowski - Is also special. I said last year that I thought he's the best post defender the zags have ever had, and he's even better this year. He's finally been able to get his mean streak going and impose his will on other bigs. Superb defender, good athlete, decent rebounder, great passer, and very good finisher. If he didn't have such an amazing team around him we'd be talking about him as probably the best center we've ever had.

Nunez - I felt bad for the kid about 3 weeks ago, but I've come to the conclusion that he has given up and doesn't care anymore. It's a shame, he seems like a great guy.

Gosh I love being a fan of the best and most exciting team in college basketball!!!!

Marcus
01-30-2015, 10:40 AM
I liked the game, hooray for defense. They really turned it up a notch and Portland couldn't adjust on either side of the ball. Domas is really entertaining to watch, has an obvious edge and fire to him. It was great to see Kev get the record too.

A small thing but it jumped out to me was Eric McClellan's steal on the ball that led to the dunk. Most steals at this level are from deflecting passes or anticipating passing lanes or come off the ball from helpside defenders. The ball handling for most div 1 pg's are usually really good in the open court one on one at protecting the ball. Eric has extremely quick hands and feet, that pick was really clean and really quick. He offers something we haven't had for a while in the open court, a one man full court press almost. It was great, and with better condtioning he will be a great change of pace and will be able to log more minutes..

Zagceo
01-30-2015, 11:01 AM
To the karno issue at high post, many times that is part of a designed play for a select player IMO, rarely is he at the free throw line extended for a true high low angle passing, generally it is Sabonis or Wiltjer at that spot when we are actually looking for the high low option.......

just my observations

I understand what you're saying and it explains why the ball swings quickly but when they look at game footage they must see a lost opportunity to feed a low post player with a high field goal % I would think……..I believe Shem is such a good passer I trust him all day with this type of pass. I've noticed this has happened in couple of games. ……….Just an observation not a criticism.

Domas has pinned his defender almost under the basket. Could Domas be out of position and thats why Shem doesn't look?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7ic8oHUV0c

seacatfan
01-30-2015, 11:16 AM
Yeah, noticed that. It's unfortunate. His playing time has diminished to the point that when he comes in, he takes bad shots, makes bad decisions, etc. all presumably out of a desire to maximize the few minutes he gets. Of course it then has the opposite result as it reduces his minutes further the next time out.

Everybody was playing like crap during mop up time, Nunez certainly wasn't the only guy taking quick or bad shots. I don't understand why he is getting singled out. We've seen it before, and unfortunately Nunez is the latest GU player to be marginalized and basically lose his place at the table. As has been noted before, once you are in Few's doghouse, you probably aren't getting out. At this point probably doesn't matter if Nunez gets back that extra year of eligibility. Another year would be more of the same, and with Edwards coming off RS just one more big contending for minutes (assuming none of PK, KW or DS declare for the draft).

Mantua
01-30-2015, 11:24 AM
Portland's height and strategy of triple teaming our posts provided the kind of experience that is necessary in order to prepare for March. On College Basketball Live last night Shane Battier was questioning what GU will do when they get "punched in the mouth" by more athletic teams in the NCAA tournament, so last night's game tape is a good teaching tool. (I do think that our lack of depth has held teams back in the tournament and we have a better chance this year.) The Zag's didn't get into foul trouble and played great defense in the second half. The offense wasn't so great, however, it's time to stop looking at scoring alone as the measure of success for the team as a whole and for individual players. We have good shooters. They are making so much progress learning to get into position in the flow of the offense and the defense. It's all about teamwork now. The shooting should come back soon somewhere along this learning curve. Take a good look at Portland's offensive numbers last night.

Once and Future Zag
01-30-2015, 12:39 PM
Everybody was playing like crap during mop up time, Nunez certainly wasn't the only guy taking quick or bad shots. I don't understand why he is getting singled out. We've seen it before, and unfortunately Nunez is the latest GU player to be marginalized and basically lose his place at the table. As has been noted before, once you are in Few's doghouse, you probably aren't getting out. At this point probably doesn't matter if Nunez gets back that extra year of eligibility. Another year would be more of the same, and with Edwards coming off RS just one more big contending for minutes (assuming none of PK, KW or DS declare for the draft).

Come on, that's not true...

Few wanted to kick Josh Heytvelt off the team entirely. And when he came back he's bulked up and tried to shift his game from being a bouncy lanky PF to a back to the basket center. He still sometimes drifted out to the 3P line by habit where he was more comfortable, but you can't say his minutes disappeared.

What Nunez could do in his limited minutes is be what the coaching staff needs him to be, and he'd probably see a little more run, especially if 2 of the bigs are in simultaneous foul trouble or needing a breather.

What he's not doing in his time on the court is showing consciousness of his place on this team - at least as what I see.

He's got a nice shot, great athleticism, and good instincts on the glass. I don't like ragging on a guy who is near the bottom of the rotation, but he's yet to show signs - this year - that he's ready to fit seamlessly into the rotation... which I think is a bummer since we're going to need what he brings athletically as a PF defensive stopper. What we don't need is someone who misses his defensive assignments, or would rather take a decent shot over finding a teammate for a great one.

I'm sure he's a fine young man, and I hope he's up to the task when his time to step up comes.

BULLDOG#1
01-30-2015, 12:47 PM
i haven't posted here in awhile, but I lurk basically everyday. With this in mind, I have to say a few things that haven't been said.

1. Przemek Karnowski will go down as one of the best big men that we've ever had here. He's that good. Think about it. His hands are buttery, his footwork could use some work but he works hard and keeps the ball, upon receiving, above his chest. That's day one stuff. Think about our past bigs. Sacre's hands were so small he was like Dante Culpepper but with a bigger ball. He's becoming more and more aggressive and is the most intimidating force we've had on the inside since...maybe ever.

2. Our offense today was awful, especially in the first half. There were multiple times where we settled for BS shots for no other reason than we were looking past our opponent.

3. No one wants to say it, but Domas is the most selfish player on the team, followed closely by Melson. Those two know how good they can be, and chuck everytime they get the ball. I have zero confidence in either of them passing when they get their turn. Still, I believe that sometimes your best players are the ones that are selfish (see AM), however this is a big concern if they can't dial it in by tournament time.

4. Eric McClellan is the real deal, and lends to the idea that no team is complete by February. With he, Perkins, and Silas continuing to grow, we have a great chance at going deep.

Domas has shown the ability to be a great passer. I'm just not sure how you could call a guy with his FG% selfish. Doesn't make sense. He is aggressive in seeking out his shots, which makes him hungry, not selfish.

Not sure how you can read so much into McClellan after such a short look.

gonzagafan62
01-30-2015, 12:47 PM
Come on, that's not true...

Few wanted to kick Josh Heytvelt off the team entirely. And when he came back he's bulked up and tried to shift his game from being a bouncy lanky PF to a back to the basket center. He still sometimes drifted out to the 3P line by habit where he was more comfortable, but you can't say his minutes disappeared.

What Nunez could do in his limited minutes is be what the coaching staff needs him to be, and he'd probably see a little more run, especially if 2 of the bigs are in simultaneous foul trouble or needing a breather.

What he's not doing in his time on the court is showing consciousness of his place on this team - at least as what I see.

He's got a nice shot, great athleticism, and good instincts on the glass. I don't like ragging on a guy who is near the bottom of the rotation, but he's yet to show signs - this year - that he's ready to fit seamlessly into the rotation... which I think is a bummer since we're going to need what he brings athletically as a PF defensive stopper. What we don't need is someone who misses his defensive assignments, or would rather take a decent shot over finding a teammate for a great one.

I'm sure he's a fine young man, and I hope he's up to the task when his time to step up comes.

+1

cjm720
01-30-2015, 12:50 PM
Domas has shown the ability to be a great passer. I'm just not sure how you could call a guy with his FG% selfish. Doesn't make sense. He is aggressive in seeking out his shots, which makes him hungry, not selfish.

Not sure how you can read so much into McClellan after such a short look.

My thoughts exactly but too lazy to post so thanks!

zagfan24
01-30-2015, 12:58 PM
I will say this about Angel -- while I think many are understandbly disappointed by his play once he is in the game, he seems to still be very active and engaged on the bench...not sulking or disregarding the accomplishments of his teammates and the first to jump up and give high fives during a time out.

kreese555
01-30-2015, 12:59 PM
Let me clarify my statements on the whole "selfish " thing. In basketball, selfishness is a common thing that could be said of Jordan, Durant, Lebron. It's not a terrible thing, and I love the prospect of Domas and Melson maturing into great Zags over the next couple of years. What I'm talking about is within the framework of this year's team. The starting five are so cohesive, and swing the ball efficiently not just for an open shot but for the best shot a little deeper in the clock. To me, it's obvious that Silas struggles with this, whether it's the concept or just lack of execution I don't know. In the first half he, and many others, took shots too early in the possession and it disrupted the flow. Now, if those shots go in we're all praising him probably, but that's just it. If you're going to do that, you'd better make sure your shots go in!

Which leads me to Domas. This kid is special. He has an uncanny ability to score but that starts with his attitude which is a "you can't stop me" attitude. The problem rises when we talk about what this team is. Gonzaga is a spread the love around, they don't know how to stop us type of offense that thrives on passing up good shots for great ones. Sabonis sometimes gets into a mode where he bulls at the basket with horse blinders on through a triple team and it makes you scratch your head.

I'm certainly not complaining about an 18 point win, and (Reborn) I certainly don't think my observations are "pathetic". I'm talking about the end game here, March Madness and a deep tourney run. We can all pat each other on the back and feel good about beating a decent Portland team by 18 at home. Or we could talk about how this is maybe the most talented Zags team ever, and that they have the capability of beating that team by 30-40 and look at where they can improve. In my mind, it is obvious to see that there is a large drop off in offense from the starting five to the guys that need to produce for us to be successful in March. The good news is there's time, and all these kids will develop. But to say Melson and Sabonis (and yes, Nunez, but he's an after thought at this point) are the most selfish players on this team is not a stretch. Don't like the word? Fine, they are the most scoring-first--oriented players on the team.

kreese555
01-30-2015, 01:11 PM
Domas has shown the ability to be a great passer. I'm just not sure how you could call a guy with his FG% selfish. Doesn't make sense. He is aggressive in seeking out his shots, which makes him hungry, not selfish.

Not sure how you can read so much into McClellan after such a short look.

On McClellan, he is a mature and poised young man with a long body who gets into position quickly and effortlessly. His quickness and explosiveness is palpable, and he has show a nice shot with smooth mechanics that makes me optimistic that he can keep defenses honest and from collapsing into our bigs. One other thing I noticed was that Portland wasn't respecting BWes when he was alone on the perimeter. BWes, or EM, or Silas HAVE to make teams pay for that or we become stoppable. Wesley hasn't been lauded for his 3 point shooting, and I hope EM gets in shape in time to come in off the bench and be that option for when teams are really packing it in. Silas can certainly be that guy too, I'm just allowing him more time as a freshman to figure it out. McClellan is a vet, and as such his learning curve should be less arduous.

Reborn
01-30-2015, 01:11 PM
[QUOTE=kreese555;1078550]Let me clarify my statements on the whole "selfish " thing. In basketball, selfishness is a common thing that could be said of Jordan, Durant, Lebron. The starting five are so cohesive, and swing the ball efficiently not just for an open shot but for the best shot a little deeper in the clock. To me, it's obvious that Silas struggles with this, whether it's the concept or just lack of execution I don't know. In the first half he, and many others, took shots too early in the possession and it disrupted the flow. Now, if those shots go in we're all praising him probably, but that's just it. If you're going to do that, you'd better make sure your shots go in!]

And some of those "other" players who took shots early in the shot clock (after 0 passes, after one pass, or after two passes) were guys like Pangos, Wesley (who took three shots early in the shot clock), Wiltjer who took 4 shots early in the shot clock, and Bell, who took 3 shots early in the shot clock. I really don't mind criticizing players. I do it took, but as a poster try to not generalize too much, and make sure you're right about your generalizations. I enjoyed your post because it got me fired up. And I like that.

Go Zags!!!
One game at a time!

Robzagnut
01-30-2015, 01:13 PM
Agree about Angel-- I think Mark sent him a little message last night based upon his selfish approach by sending him back to the bench and putting in a walk on to close out the game.

Go Zags

I don't think coach took Nunez out for shooting a 3, it was when he let a Portland guy catch the ball a foot from the basket and get an easy 2.

Message - Nothing wrong with shooting a 3, but on this team if you don't play defense, you sit.

LongIslandZagFan
01-30-2015, 01:22 PM
3. No one wants to say it, but Domas is the most selfish player on the team, followed closely by Melson. Those two know how good they can be, and chuck everytime they get the ball. I have zero confidence in either of them passing when they get their turn. Still, I believe that sometimes your best players are the ones that are selfish (see AM), however this is a big concern if they can't dial it in by tournament time.


Sabonis leads the country in shooting %.. I say... shoot the thing all day long.

gonzagafan62
01-30-2015, 01:29 PM
Sabonis leads the country in shooting %.. I say... shoot the thing all day long.

Heck yeah! Exactly LIZF. He needs to!

Go dang Zags!

seacatfan
01-30-2015, 02:30 PM
Come on, that's not true...

Few wanted to kick Josh Heytvelt off the team entirely. And when he came back he's bulked up and tried to shift his game from being a bouncy lanky PF to a back to the basket center. He still sometimes drifted out to the 3P line by habit where he was more comfortable, but you can't say his minutes disappeared.

What Nunez could do in his limited minutes is be what the coaching staff needs him to be, and he'd probably see a little more run, especially if 2 of the bigs are in simultaneous foul trouble or needing a breather.

What he's not doing in his time on the court is showing consciousness of his place on this team - at least as what I see.

He's got a nice shot, great athleticism, and good instincts on the glass. I don't like ragging on a guy who is near the bottom of the rotation, but he's yet to show signs - this year - that he's ready to fit seamlessly into the rotation... which I think is a bummer since we're going to need what he brings athletically as a PF defensive stopper. What we don't need is someone who misses his defensive assignments, or would rather take a decent shot over finding a teammate for a great one.

I'm sure he's a fine young man, and I hope he's up to the task when his time to step up comes.

Heytvelt's career was something different all together. Some injury problems off and on. The suspension from mushroomgate. A change in his game after gaining some weight. Some real highs (not a pun) and lows to his career.

Think in recent years Landry Edi and Coleman. Athletic, had some basketball ability, certainly seemed like players that could contribute, both saw their playing time dwindle and overall had non-impactful stays at GU. Nunez certainly fits in that lineage. And I would point out he looked very good in the first 5 games or so of the season. There has been a drastic change since then.

seacatfan
01-30-2015, 02:35 PM
About Sabonis, I can understand what the OP is saying. I've had similar thoughts at times. It's easy to look at the FG% and think he should always shoot, but he definitely forces shots at times. Sometimes you can tell the second he catches the ball that he is going to try to score, there's just no way he's passing the ball. I have seen him make some nice passes, so he's not a black hole. While he's been very effective, there is a lot of room for improvement for him in adding shooting range and some versatility to his repertoire. Off and on posters have been speculating about him being one and done. There is no way what he is doing and is working right now in college would get it done in the NBA. He has a long way to go. He's having a great freshman year and his future at GU looks very bright, but he's certainly not infallible or the greatest thing ever, like some seem to view him as.

seacatfan
01-30-2015, 02:41 PM
On McClellan, he is a mature and poised young man with a long body who gets into position quickly and effortlessly. His quickness and explosiveness is palpable, and he has show a nice shot with smooth mechanics that makes me optimistic that he can keep defenses honest and from collapsing into our bigs. One other thing I noticed was that Portland wasn't respecting BWes when he was alone on the perimeter. BWes, or EM, or Silas HAVE to make teams pay for that or we become stoppable. Wesley hasn't been lauded for his 3 point shooting, and I hope EM gets in shape in time to come in off the bench and be that option for when teams are really packing it in. Silas can certainly be that guy too, I'm just allowing him more time as a freshman to figure it out. McClellan is a vet, and as such his learning curve should be less arduous.

I haven't been very impressed with Wesley's play for the most part in WCC. He's a good rebounder and defender. Most of his scoring has been in transition. He hasn't been as consistent driving to the hoop in half court offense as he was earlier in the season. While he's knocked down a few 3's, his percentage is sitting at 25% for the season. That's not good. It's interesting, as good of numbers as he put up at USC, I don't remember ever hearing about him being in the conversation for best players in the Pac 12. He's still a nice contributor to the team, but just another cog in the machine. He'll need to step up his play quite a bit if he's going to be the kind of difference maker down the stretch that many thought he would be.

zagamatic
01-30-2015, 02:44 PM
I understand wondering why Melson was arguably jacking up shots. But like upan1/8 mentioned earlier, Bell went 0for. Bell had been shooting well in the previous 3 games, but last night just wasn't his night offensively. So why not give Melson the opportunity and see what happens?
As for Karnowski, a prime example of the offense sputtering without him is after the first tv timeout last night. He started and played the first 5 minutes or so and we were scoring at will. He didn't play between the first 2 commercial breaks and we didn't score. Inserted back in after the 2nd commercial break and scored immediately.
Sabonis, I love the kid. And WCC play is exactly the time to let him test his boundaries to see how good he can be and learn from his mistakes.I trust coach Few to pull him if he needs to. But in the meantime, we could be a lot worse off than to let a guy who's shooting 70% learn as he goes.

Once and Future Zag
01-30-2015, 02:44 PM
Heytvelt's career was something different all together. Some injury problems off and on. The suspension from mushroomgate. A change in his game after gaining some weight. Some real highs (not a pun) and lows to his career.

Think in recent years Landry Edi and Coleman. Athletic, had some basketball ability, certainly seemed like players that could contribute, both saw their playing time dwindle and overall had non-impactful stays at GU. Nunez certainly fits in that lineage. And I would point out he looked very good in the first 5 games or so of the season. There has been a drastic change since then.

All of what you are describing are guys that lived off their athleticism and then had trouble in the more structured environment of the Zags - and to go back to Heytvelt, he put on that weight at the coaches request, he tried to develop his game, as he was asked to by the coaches - and he visibly struggled with that, but he showed willing to change and "did his time" in the doghouse.

As mentioned, Nunez has shown enthusiasm on the bench, and all sorts of great tools - yet when he gets on the court, somehow it all goes wrong for him. Maybe against our games against LMU and Pacific he can get some more play, and then directed coaching so that he won't be an on-court liability. Right now, he's behind 3 All league guys, no shame in that. What should cause some introspection is that when he does get on the court, he's not doing much to engender distrust.

I have a hard time seeing Few as having a doghouse - I see it as more a level of trust. When crunch time comes, he goes with who he trusts to do what he wants on the court, even if they aren't the most athletic, or whatever. If he trusts you to be consistent on the court, then you'll get minutes. If he doesn't trust someone's ability to so what they're asked, then they just aren't going to get any play.

Getting out of position consistently, and making suboptimal decisions is not going to fly with Few, regardless of talent and skill.

maynard g krebs
01-30-2015, 02:44 PM
3. No one wants to say it, but Domas is the most selfish player on the team

I'm sure something more ridiculous has been said on this board, but I don't remember when or what. Sabonis averages a tick over FIVE FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS per game in a bit under 22 minutes. Lowest by far among the top 6 scorers. He LEADS THE ENTIRE NCAA IN FG%, and virtually never takes anything but a layup, even though he's shown a decent looking midrange jumper.

He averages over 1.9 points per fg attempt. Without taking the time to do the exact math, Pangos is next at about 1.6, Wiltjer, Karnowski and Wesley about 1.35-1,4, Bell after his slump 1.25, Melson 1.2.

It also should be noted that his fg attempts would be even lower if he didn't get so many offensive rebounds/putbacks.

For comparison, Sabonis takes about half as many shots per minute as Wiltjer. If anything, he could be more selfish.

Agree about Melson being a chucker; lots of talent but there's a reason he was redshirting. Talented but raw.

Sorry but if you bash a player and are so ridiculously far off base, you're gonna get called on it.

seacatfan
01-30-2015, 02:52 PM
I have a hard time seeing Few as having a doghouse - I see it as more a level of trust. When crunch time comes, he goes with who he trusts to do what he wants on the court, even if they aren't the most athletic, or whatever. If he trusts you to be consistent on the court, then you'll get minutes. If he doesn't trust someone's ability to so what they're asked, then they just aren't going to get any play.


That's a really good way of putting it. I think you are exactly right about Few trusting some players and some not so much, and that really dictates playing time.

seacatfan
01-30-2015, 02:57 PM
As for Karnowski, a prime example of the offense sputtering without him is after the first tv timeout last night. He started and played the first 5 minutes or so and we were scoring at will. He didn't play between the first 2 commercial breaks and we didn't score. Inserted back in after the 2nd commercial break and scored immediately.


This. We may all have different perspectives about which player is doing what and who should play more or shoot more or shoot less. But the offense is run through Karnowski in a way that doesn't occur with the other bigs. His impact on a game usually goes way beyond just his points and rebounds and assists. Sabonis is a freshman and Karno is a Jr., so not reasonable to expect the rookie to have the same overall feel for the game as the veteran.

kreese555
01-30-2015, 03:05 PM
I'm sure something more ridiculous has been said on this board, but I don't remember when or what. Sabonis averages a tick over FIVE FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS per game in a bit under 22 minutes. Lowest by far among the top 6 scorers. He LEADS THE ENTIRE NCAA IN FG%, and virtually never takes anything but a layup, even though he's shown a decent looking midrange jumper.

He averages over 1.9 points per fg attempt. Without taking the time to do the exact math, Pangos is next at about 1.6, Wiltjer, Karnowski and Wesley about 1.35-1,4, Bell after his slump 1.25, Melson 1.2.

It also should be noted that his fg attempts would be even lower if he didn't get so many offensive rebounds/putbacks.

For comparison, Sabonis takes about half as many shots per minute as Wiltjer. If anything, he could be more selfish.

Agree about Melson being a chucker; lots of talent but there's a reason he was redshirting. Talented but raw.

Sorry but if you bash a player and are so ridiculously far off base, you're gonna get called on it.

Um...I didn't bash anyone. I love the kid. You are getting too hung up on the word "selfish" and taking it to mean he takes too many shots. It's the manner in which he does it that I call into question. No percentages or shot amounts are going to tell the story. He needs to continue to learn to pass out of trouble to reset the offense and find himself the best shot, not just the one that he creates. Sure, he can continue to bully the WCC and pad his percentages, but when he runs into consistently big and experienced frontcourts in March, he'd better keep his head up and the ball moving or find himself rendered ineffective.

Watch the game, see the look in his eyes when he's decided it's his turn to score. Nothing changes that. It's the obstinance of an 18 year old with ridiculous talent which is awesome, don't get me wrong, but needs to be cultivated under a watchful eye with a team-oriented approach. That's what will take him, and the Zags, to the next level.

DADoZAG
01-30-2015, 03:09 PM
Let me clarify my statements on the whole "selfish " thing. In basketball, selfishness is a common thing that could be said of Jordan, Durant, Lebron. It's not a terrible thing, and I love the prospect of Domas and Melson maturing into great Zags over the next couple of years. What I'm talking about is within the framework of this year's team. The starting five are so cohesive, and swing the ball efficiently not just for an open shot but for the best shot a little deeper in the clock. To me, it's obvious that Silas struggles with this, whether it's the concept or just lack of execution I don't know. In the first half he, and many others, took shots too early in the possession and it disrupted the flow. Now, if those shots go in we're all praising him probably, but that's just it. If you're going to do that, you'd better make sure your shots go in!

Which leads me to Domas. This kid is special. He has an uncanny ability to score but that starts with his attitude which is a "you can't stop me" attitude. The problem rises when we talk about what this team is. Gonzaga is a spread the love around, they don't know how to stop us type of offense that thrives on passing up good shots for great ones. Sabonis sometimes gets into a mode where he bulls at the basket with horse blinders on through a triple team and it makes you scratch your head.

I'm certainly not complaining about an 18 point win, and (Reborn) I certainly don't think my observations are "pathetic". I'm talking about the end game here, March Madness and a deep tourney run. We can all pat each other on the back and feel good about beating a decent Portland team by 18 at home. Or we could talk about how this is maybe the most talented Zags team ever, and that they have the capability of beating that team by 30-40 and look at where they can improve. In my mind, it is obvious to see that there is a large drop off in offense from the starting five to the guys that need to produce for us to be successful in March. The good news is there's time, and all these kids will develop. But to say Melson and Sabonis (and yes, Nunez, but he's an after thought at this point) are the most selfish players on this team is not a stretch. Don't like the word? Fine, they are the most scoring-first--oriented players on the team.

That's either a nice post reversal due to extensive post pressure [puns intended] or a very nice clarification. Only you know which.

IMO, freshman take a bit longer to gain the patience it takes to run through several sets. Both Silas and Domas will learn to be patient.

Kudos to coach for the longer rope on Silas, as Bart mentioned. I think Few's letting Silas learn while "playing through" his immaturity.

'Don't think I was the only one that thought KD's rope was a bit short as a freshman, and as such quite costly. Now, it could be interpreted that Few is doing damage control for that, patting the "most underrated player on the team" on the back when the opportunity presents itself. If so even more demonstration of continued growth in a hall of fame coach.

Domas made two real nice passes last night, the crowd appreciating each. I'm excited to see him in a couple of years ('have evolved to agree with GZ from another thread, that he most likely stays 3).

Speaking of Coach, two much needed timeouts, one in each half, really impacted the game. Although the first half timeout might have come a possession or two sooner, it stopped the "quick shot" empty possessions and got the offense running again.

And Karno didn't change how he was handling the extra pressure, he was re-instructed to do so in the second half timeout. And, towards the end of the game when PK didn't react to that extra pressure as he was instructed, and then barked back at the bench when he turned it over, he found the bench immediately.

OT, why isn't anyone commenting on the end of first half play? No clock running, but instead a shot taken in the flow of the offense when KP was open for the three. Even though Portland gained an extra possession (don't remember for sure if they scored or not but don't think so), the ZAGS ran offense rather than holding... and holding...

Last points, not sure why being exited about the potential of this team in March means one isn't appreciating every step along the journey, and even craps has a calculated probability of outcome.

Go ZAGS!

seacatfan
01-30-2015, 03:18 PM
OT, why isn't anyone commenting on the end of first half play? No clock running, but instead a shot taken in the flow of the offense when KP was open for the three. Even though Portland gained an extra possession (don't remember for sure if they scored or not but don't think so), the ZAGS ran offense rather than holding... and holding...


You're right! As much as this board has been obsessing about end of half possessions, it seems to have slipped past everybody. Good catch.

3XaZag
01-30-2015, 03:19 PM
With Sabonis shooting at 70%, I don't see a point trying to see into his head to guess his motivation.

I think Jazz has in right on about Melson...he needs to 'find a 2nd thing to do' and he will be fine.

As good and talented as he is, if he becomes a one dimensional 3 pt specialist he will self-limit his value. Wiltjer has done it. He added the interior presence to his game this year. You also see Dranginis and Bell making sure that going to the rim is a significant part of their games. With Melson's hops he should be an awesome finisher. It is still really early in his career, he has only been on the floor for 212 minutes. If he isn't resistant, I trust time and the coaching staff to work this out.

seacatfan
01-30-2015, 03:22 PM
Does jumping the passing lanes and getting run outs count as a second thing for Melson? That's where all of his point came from last night. Or is that referring strictly to half court offense?

titopoet
01-30-2015, 03:35 PM
My guess, since Sabonis is not suffering in playing time, nor that is how he played last year, that Few is calling him to play that role, Vinny Microwave energy guy.
On Melson, Melson is a shooting guard and that is what shooting guards do.

zag buddy
01-30-2015, 03:37 PM
I would like to see Melson gaining experience in passing the ball into the post. That will be the area that will keep the Zags great for years to come. He doesn't need to practice his shooting, he needs to practice getting the ball into the post! As for Domas, he is averaging about 10 points a game with the best percentage in the nation. Selfish - I don't think so. Others with that percentage would shoot a lot more. EM is going to be outstanding. If Silis cannot develop a more well rounded game he will be coming off the bench in future years. Whether he is open or not in these blow outs he needs to develop other aspects of his game rather that shooting. As I said this summer Melson is a lot like Pargo and his instinct is to want to take over the game. We do much better with a team concept. I also do not cut them much slack for being freshman at this time of the year. Start over and develop your total game Silis, you have the ability. Oh by the way did you all see how high big K got on that blocked shot.

DixieZag
01-30-2015, 03:50 PM
With Sabonis shooting at 70%, I don't see a point trying to see into his head to guess his motivation.

I think Jazz has in right on about Melson...he needs to 'find a 2nd thing to do' and he will be fine.

As good and talented as he is, if he becomes a one dimensional 3 pt specialist he will self-limit his value. Wiltjer has done it. He added the interior presence to his game this year. You also see Dranginis and Bell making sure that going to the rim is a significant part of their games. With Melson's hops he should be an awesome finisher. It is still really early in his career, he has only been on the floor for 212 minutes. If he isn't resistant, I trust time and the coaching staff to work this out.

That is a great point. He has more athleticism that anyone on the team IMO, and if he drives to the rim, he could easily be up over any of the defenders (if he learns to control his body) and sitting outside looking for 3pt jumpers on a team with KW, KP and GB isn't his role. He does do a nice job cutting to the basket without the ball.

bballbeachbum
01-30-2015, 04:31 PM
That is a great point. He has more athleticism that anyone on the team IMO, and if he drives to the rim, he could easily be up over any of the defenders (if he learns to control his body) and sitting outside looking for 3pt jumpers on a team with KW, KP and GB isn't his role. He does do a nice job cutting to the basket without the ball.

looks like Silas can explode and dunk from the guard spot already. defensively and rebounding the ball/boxing out will be fun watching him develop

Mantua
01-30-2015, 04:47 PM
My guess, since Sabonis is not suffering in playing time, nor that is how he played last year, that Few is calling him to play that role, Vinny Microwave energy guy.
On Melson, Melson is a shooting guard and that is what shooting guards do.


Melson's defense is valuable. Other than shooting a little early sometimes, I can't find fault. He has a nose for the ball.

I would like to see Wiltjer play deeper on both ends. I don't like to see a triple teamed post player given only the choice of passing the ball to the perimeter or a heavily defended guard get stranded with the closest player not coming to the ball. I wonder if the coaches are going to be presenting choices about when it's productive to run to the 3 pt line and when it hurts the offense or the defense. When I watch Celt's games I see KO having the same problems.

SunDevilGolfZag
01-30-2015, 06:44 PM
I was at the Portland game sitting close enough to the floor to actually see what was happening. I thought the referees were terrible -- not a sour grapes comment for either team. They were just technically inept IMO. They missed 3 double dribble calls that I saw; had at least two phantom late whistle calls and a variety of other missed calls for forearm shivers and the like. It just took me back to the days when I used to comment that the skill of the officiating wasn't up to the skill level of the players. Maybe it was just me, but I was non-plussed.

Another observation is: Wow, Sabonis is something else. We are lucky to have a guy with his focus and skills.

maynard g krebs
01-30-2015, 07:14 PM
Um...I didn't bash anyone.


Sure, he can continue to bully the WCC and pad his percentages,





Um...Part of communication is considering how your words are going to be perceived. Did you forget you said "he chucks every time he gets the ball"? (paraphrasing). Because if you don't think that's bashing, you're pretty tone deaf.

To some, like me, calling a player selfish is the worst thing you can say about him. I guess you define the word differently from this (Dictionary.com):

1) devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefit, welfare etc., regardless of others.
2)characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself.

Words have specific meanings; if you had made your specific critiques of his play in your OP rather that this incendiary cheap shot (based on definition above), I may have responded differently, or not bothered at all.

As to "padding his percentages" in the WCC, he was an aggregate 23/34, 67%, v SMU, St Joe's, St Johns, Georgia, Arizona, UCLA, WSU. Not too different from the WCC. So again facts don't seem to support your perceptions.

You want the nation's fg% leader to kick it out more and reset to get better shots? And you don't like the look in his eye (can't see that on my tv) when he decides to score? Not much I can say to any of that, or would bother to. All I'll say is that I find the notion of Sabonis being a selfish player ridiculous, and not substantiated by anything objective or rational.

Birddog
01-30-2015, 07:28 PM
Um...Part of communication is considering how your words are going to be perceived. Did you forget you said "he chucks every time he gets the ball"? (paraphrasing). Because if you don't think that's bashing, you're pretty tone deaf.

To some, like me, calling a player selfish is the worst thing you can say about him. I guess you define the word differently from this (Dictionary.com):

1) devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefit, welfare etc., regardless of others.
2)characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself.

Words have specific meanings; if you had made your specific critiques of his play in your OP rather that this incendiary cheap shot (based on definition above), I may have responded differently, or not bothered at all.

As to "padding his percentages" in the WCC, he was an aggregate 23/34, 67%, v SMU, St Joe's, St Johns, Georgia, Arizona, UCLA, WSU. Not too different from the WCC. So again facts don't seem to support your perceptions.

You want the nation's fg% leader to kick it out more and reset to get better shots? And you don't like the look in his eye (can't see that on my tv) when he decides to score? Not much I can say to any of that, or would bother to. All I'll say is that I find the notion of Sabonis being a selfish player ridiculous, and not substantiated by anything objective or rational.

I was gonna throw kreese a shovel but you brought the back hoe.

DixieZag
01-30-2015, 07:30 PM
Um...Part of communication is considering how your words are going to be perceived. Did you forget you said "he chucks every time he gets the ball"? (paraphrasing). Because if you don't think that's bashing, you're pretty tone deaf.

To some, like me, calling a player selfish is the worst thing you can say about him. I guess you define the word differently from this (Dictionary.com):

1) devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefit, welfare etc., regardless of others.
2)characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself.

Words have specific meanings; if you had made your specific critiques of his play in your OP rather that this incendiary cheap shot (based on definition above), I may have responded differently, or not bothered at all.

As to "padding his percentages" in the WCC, he was an aggregate 23/34, 67%, v SMU, St Joe's, St Johns, Georgia, Arizona, UCLA, WSU. Not too different from the WCC. So again facts don't seem to support your perceptions.

You want the nation's fg% leader to kick it out more and reset to get better shots? And you don't like the look in his eye (can't see that on my tv) when he decides to score? Not much I can say to any of that, or would bother to. All I'll say is that I find the notion of Sabonis being a selfish player ridiculous, and not substantiated by anything objective or rational.

Plus a couple hundred.

Selfish guys don't exhaust themselves getting rebounds.

I think he gets double teamed, and triple teamed occasionally, and is learning how to deal with that. But, he should be calling for the ball more when he gets good position and not waiting for the double team to come. He occasionally waits too long before putting it up. IMO.

Oh, and I was at the game, also. I thought the officials at least let them play, even if they missed a few calls. I liked that they were playing and not into the bonus until late in each half.

gonzagafan62
01-30-2015, 07:34 PM
Plus a couple hundred.

Selfish guys don't exhaust themselves getting rebounds.

I think he gets double teamed, and triple teamed occasionally, and is learning how to deal with that. But, he should be calling for the ball more when he gets good position and not waiting for the double team to come. He occasionally waits too long before putting it up. IMO.

Oh, and I was at the game, also. I thought the officials at least let them play, even if they missed a few calls. I liked that they were playing and not into the bonus until late in each half.

Agreed 1000 %

ZagaZags
01-31-2015, 01:53 AM
Did anyone notice coach Reveno yell at Kevin Pangos as he shot the 3 ball? Kevin nailed the 3 with :20 to go 1st half. Pangos was about 6 feet from coach Reveno. The distraction didn't work.

WallaWallaZag
01-31-2015, 06:22 AM
OT, why isn't anyone commenting on the end of first half play? No clock running, but instead a shot taken in the flow of the offense when KP was open for the three. Even though Portland gained an extra possession (don't remember for sure if they scored or not but don't think so), the ZAGS ran offense rather than holding... and holding...


You're right! As much as this board has been obsessing about end of half possessions, it seems to have slipped past everybody. Good catch.

i'm not sure the portland game was a good indicator...i'll have to go back and watch, but i believe there was too much time left on the clock for few to play his end of half strategy.

edited to add: just checked...there was a ~12 second differential so i don't think the sequence qualifies...let's see what happens next time.

DADoZAG
01-31-2015, 07:06 AM
WallaWalla's right, my bad.

Go ZAGS!

PNW Zagfan
01-31-2015, 07:30 AM
I was at the Portland game sitting close enough to the floor to actually see what was happening. I thought the referees were terrible...

I was at the Portland game sitting far enough from the floor to not necessarily know what I'm talking about, but I also thought the referees, one in particular, were terrible.

Reborn
01-31-2015, 07:37 AM
I would like to see Melson gaining experience in passing the ball into the post. That will be the area that will keep the Zags great for years to come. He doesn't need to practice his shooting, he needs to practice getting the ball into the post! As for Domas, he is averaging about 10 points a game with the best percentage in the nation. Selfish - I don't think so. Others with that percentage would shoot a lot more. EM is going to be outstanding. If Silis cannot develop a more well rounded game he will be coming off the bench in future years. Whether he is open or not in these blow outs he needs to develop other aspects of his game rather that shooting. As I said this summer Melson is a lot like Pargo and his instinct is to want to take over the game. We do much better with a team concept. I also do not cut them much slack for being freshman at this time of the year. Start over and develop your total game Silis, you have the ability. Oh by the way did you all see how high big K got on that blocked shot.

Hahahah I can predict one thing for sure, Silas Melson will not be a substitute next season or the one's after that. For those of you who insist he doesn't pass, he passed the ball 10 times in the game Thursday. And he shot it 8 times. He only took 3 three point shots.

PNW Zagfan
01-31-2015, 07:49 AM
Some other thoughts about the "selfish" (unfortunate choice of words) label...

Sabonis has been evolving and improving over the season, less fouls, less frustration, a better understanding (to the extent possible - see comment above re officiating) of what gets called for a foul here vs his prior experience in Europe, while keeping up his high level of intensity (love the way he fights for rebounds). IMHO, he is doing what he is being told to do by the coaches. He finds paths to the basket where none seemingly exist, scores and/or gets fouled, which in the Portland game resulted in seven for seven from the line (had the officiating been better, could have been there much more).I think Few would pull him quickly if there was any concern about a need to pass it out more.