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Zagquette
01-23-2015, 08:36 PM
With the win last night I think it's pangos' to lose. What do you think?

Here is my top five:

1. Pangos, GU
2. Collinsworth, BYU
3. Waldow, SMC
4. Wiltjer, GU
5. Davis, Pepp

Please make the case for someone I am leaving off. You can make a case for Hawes. But I just can't put two BYU players in the top five.

zag67
01-23-2015, 08:49 PM
I voted Collinsworth because of the year that he has had so far, but I agree that if Pangos keeps going it will be his to lose.

WallaWallaZag
01-24-2015, 12:30 AM
waldow's certainly the most important to his team and has the best numbers overall, so i'll go with him...

Ekrub
01-24-2015, 12:34 AM
Pangos or wiltjer.

ZagaZags
01-24-2015, 01:24 AM
Back in October, most people on this board thought Tyler Haws was a slam dunk for the WCC POY. I said Kyle Wiltjer, so I will stick with my prediction. Kevin Pangos would be a great pick as well. ( little surprised Haws wasn't mentioned )

Martin Centre Mad Man
01-24-2015, 04:03 AM
There are some great individual players in the league at this moment. The reigning POY is among the top five scorers in the country and may not even be one of the five best players in the league. I would still put Haws on the list, but probably rank him below Waldow, Pangos, Davis, and Collinsworth in some order. They are all worthy candidates.

bartruff1
01-24-2015, 06:10 AM
H wouldn't be my pick...but Haws will likely win..

SunDevilGolfZag
01-24-2015, 06:53 AM
At this point, who else could it be but Pangos? Best and most critical player on the league's best team + there is no overall better player in the league, IMO.

Rangerzag
01-24-2015, 07:14 AM
WCC recognition voting lately seems to follow the "anyone but the Zag" trend.

I won't be surprised if Hawes, Waldow, Collinsworth or Davis win.

In reality, Kevin Pangos is the most important player in the league. He is the most valuable player on hands down the best team in the league. he is the cog that makes the team best. In addition, when needed he can score from most anywhere on the court to skewer the opposing team's momentum.

Considering from another angle. Kevin Pangos could replace any point guard in the league and improve that team both from a court management standpoint and his ability to shoot the ball.

Put any of the other choices on the Zag team and They would not out shine the other Zag players to the point of being more important or a better player than Pangos.

If you look at the entire picture the other choices for POY stand out more because their team members need so much help that the one good player on the team ends up with good statistics. It doesn't show that the one good player on the team is best in the league.

But the, the voters can vote for whomever they please, period, and they do.

DixieZag
01-24-2015, 07:30 AM
Because of our year and because the WCC goes to great lengths to avoid Zags in whatever columns they can (in the interest of promoting other teams) it will not likely play out this way, but I truly believe it is Kevin Pangos.

He's the most valuable player on the most valuable team. Yes, we have Wiltjer to score, we have Gary as a great guard who can score, and all those other players are great and valuable players. But, pull Pangos off this team and we're nowhere near as good, even if our record isn't all that different. Best player on the best team (by a lot) that's who should be the MVP. And, since he's a senior, it would be a crime if they didn't give it to him.

RenoZag
01-24-2015, 07:33 AM
This season may be a re-run of the 2009 voting that saw SCU's John Bryant, a 20/10 guy, win the award a few years ago.

Waldow is doing similar things and might get enough votes to win the award.

I think Pangos is the most critical player on the best team in the conference, as others have said above. Unfortunately, that may not be enough to get him the POY vote. There are 10 games to play before the vote gets taken. It will be interesting to see if any of the candidates in the poll above create a clear edge in the minds of the voters.

Beat the Tigers !

willandi
01-24-2015, 07:49 AM
What a shame the zebras didn't allow the clash of the titans Thursday. Had they called fouls against both Karno and Waldo equally, Waldow would not have reached his 14 points. He is a dominating player, but Karno owns him...when allowed. It is hard to say Waldow, despite the double double, when it is apparent that those stats are against a lower tier of opponent.
Same with Davis of Pepp. When the refs bail you out consistently, how does that make the POY?
I would have to go with Collinsworth. The triple/doubles have come against all levels of competition, and are extraordinary.

23dpg
01-24-2015, 08:02 AM
I answered Waldo. That is my prediction. I agree with those who think Pangos is more valuable but the Zags are so deep, it's likely Wiltjer "steals" some votes from Kevin.

Although I agree that Collinsworth belongs on the list (I've been singing his praises for a couple of years), so does Haws. He is a top 5 candidate and might end up on a 3rd or 4th team AA list. They will also likely split votes.

Leaving...Waldow.
Not a terrible choice btw, he's carrying SM.

Bocco
01-24-2015, 08:17 AM
I suspect either Waldo get the POY. Especially if he continues to average 20 pts per game and 10 rbs and that is a distinct possibility since other than Karnowski no other team has anyone to match up and counter his size. It just seems that the POY tends to go to someone with gaudy statistics and to average 20 pts and 10 rbs a game is going to look pretty good to those voting for the POY.

hondo
01-24-2015, 08:44 AM
At this point, who else could it be but Pangos? Best and most critical player on the league's best team + there is no overall better player in the league, IMO.

Kevin without a doubt. Pangos could have better numbers if that was what he wanted. But Kevin wants a better team and that is what he has achieved. That is what makes a MVP.

BULLDOG#1
01-24-2015, 09:05 AM
Waldow is having a great year. Much props.

But it would be a crime if anyone other than Pangos won this award.

23dpg
01-24-2015, 09:11 AM
Waldow is having a great year. Much props.

But it would be a crime if anyone other than Pangos won this award.

That's answering "who should win the award"? I agree with you.
The title of the thread is "predicting who will win the wcc POY".

NumberCruncher
01-24-2015, 09:56 AM
How is it determined? I was under the impression that each team submits one candidate and each team gets one vote. Am I wrong about that?

hondo
01-24-2015, 10:02 AM
Who will win WCC POY is dependent on the agenda and bias of the pickers. We have seen the pickers fail before. Just can't see a player from an underachieving team being POY.
The object of the game is to win not to pad stats.

cggonzaga
01-24-2015, 10:20 AM
Wiltjer and I really don't think it's that close. Love Kevin too. If we go undefeated in league it will definitely be a Zag.

TheZagPhish
01-24-2015, 10:21 AM
Kevin Pangos, the 4-year starter who's shown exceptional leadership throughout his career! As hondo stated above, Kevin's strongest mojo is in orchestrating a team stacked with weapons into a singular, churning onslaught. He is a national brand at this point, easily recognized and universally admired.

I love Waldow and think he deserves a lot more recognition for his body of work, but I don't see him willing his team to a higher level on a consistent basis. When the shrapnel is flying he is more likely to take the Gaels on his back and try to muscle it through on his own -- mostly with success!

But Pangos is a heady floor general who regularly makes his entire team play better. Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

seacatfan
01-24-2015, 10:31 AM
Collinsworth may very well be BYU's best player, but I can't see Haws with his scoring being left out of consideration. Agree with several others, the voters will try hard to snub the Zags. If both BYU and St. Mary's finish in the top 3 of the WCC, will probably come down to Haws or Waldow if their stats stay about the same. I said it before, still feel the same--let other teams rack up the individual awards as long as GU is the best team and proves it on the court.

gonzagafan62
01-24-2015, 10:39 AM
Collinsworth. End. Of. Story.

Robzagnut
01-24-2015, 11:00 AM
Waldo.

GU players are too unselfish and will cancel each other out with lower numbers. Haws and Collinsworth will split BYU votes leaving Waldo. He carries that team. Watching the BYU game it was apparent they need him to play 37-38 minutes each game.

Bogozags
01-24-2015, 03:10 PM
Collinsworth may very well be BYU's best player, but I can't see Haws with his scoring being left out of consideration. Agree with several others, the voters will try hard to snub the Zags. If both BYU and St. Mary's finish in the top 3 of the WCC, will probably come down to Haws or Waldow if their stats stay about the same. I said it before, still feel the same--let other teams rack up the individual awards as long as GU is the best team and proves it on the court.

+1

All five (Haws, Collingsworth, Pangos, Waldow and Wiltjer) are all worthy of winning and would make a heck of a starting five too!

willandi
01-24-2015, 03:36 PM
+1

All five (Haws, Collingsworth, Pangos, Waldow and Wiltjer) are all worthy of winning and would make a heck of a starting five too!

I would much rather have Karno than Waldow. I can't argue about Haws or Collingsworth.

sittingon50
01-24-2015, 09:26 PM
How is it determined? I was under the impression that each team submits one candidate and each team gets one vote. Am I wrong about that?

You are correct cruncher. There are 10 nominees & 10 voters (the head Coaches).

It remains pretty simple.

seacatfan
01-24-2015, 09:46 PM
BYU being 4 games out of 1st place at the halfway point has to be hurting Haws chances somewhat, doesn't it? Could be down to Waldow or a Zag at this point.

Birddog
01-25-2015, 03:37 AM
You are correct cruncher. There are 10 nominees & 10 voters (the head Coaches).

It remains pretty simple.

And you can't vote for a player from your team.

jazzdelmar
01-25-2015, 04:35 AM
Can't imagine anyone other than the senior point guard on the #3 team in the country...seriously.

Hoopaholic
01-25-2015, 08:07 AM
Waldo.

GU players are too unselfish and will cancel each other out with lower numbers. Haws and Collinsworth will split BYU votes leaving Waldo. He carries that team. Watching the BYU game it was apparent they need him to play 37-38 minutes each game.

agree if it is all about numbers......now if it is about being the best player that has the most single value to a team, for which a team would not be where they ended up being than it is Pangos

23dpg
01-25-2015, 08:17 AM
After last night I think it's down to Waldo and Pangos.
Hard to be mvp with 4+ conference losses.

hooter73
01-25-2015, 08:23 AM
Its determined by the biggest contributor to the team as far as I know. Which, is Waldow. Without him SMC wouldnt even be on the board. Personally, I think the running will be Waldow, Collinsworth, Davis, then Pangos. I dont agree at all, but I think thats how it will pan out.

Rangerzag
01-25-2015, 08:29 AM
Its determined by the biggest contributor to the team as far as I know.

I envision the POY voting criteria falling to the whim of each individual voter, kind of like the GUnit or even something found in the Foo.

amaronizag
01-25-2015, 08:29 AM
I seem to be the only one that thinks Johnny Dee should be in the conversation about the top 5 players in the WCC. Anyone else?

Martin Centre Mad Man
01-25-2015, 08:36 AM
I think Davis will lose out to the seniors. The award is often a career achievement award. That dynamic may also work against Wiltjer.

SunDevilGolfZag
01-25-2015, 09:19 AM
I think Davis will lose out to the seniors. The award is often a career achievement award. That dynamic may also work against Wiltjer.

Easy answer is Pangos gets it this year and Wiltjer is already next years front runner

Hoopaholic
01-25-2015, 09:27 AM
Easy answer is Pangos gets it this year and Wiltjer is already next years front runner

Coach few can only nominate a single person from his team.......I think he would nominate his senior in this particular case

NumberCruncher
01-25-2015, 09:37 AM
I'm guessing the ballots will look like this:
Pangos
Waldow
Haws
Davis
Dee
Brownridge
Pinkins
Wintering
Wallace
Payne

Who will Few vote for?
Who will Bennett vote for?
Who will Rose vote for?

If the Zags win out, then I think Pangos gets it. Waldow wouldn't surprise me.

hooter73
01-25-2015, 09:45 AM
I envision the POY voting criteria falling to the whim of each individual voter, kind of like the GUnit or even something found in the Foo.

To which I agree and I forget who I heard that from a few years ago, mightve been Mike Burns. Either way, It explains why Bouldin didnt get it over Bryant that year imo.

hondo
01-25-2015, 09:55 AM
Let us just hope that, for their own sake more than anything, the selectors don't disgrace themselves and pick anybody but Kevin. However after years of domination I could see a ton of animosity toward anything Gonzaga affecting the vote. I am hoping these fine coaches rise above that and be the men their families can be proud of.

Zag4Hire
01-25-2015, 10:09 AM
Since 2000-01, Gonzaga has 10 including one two time winner. Only Delly, Dennison, McConnell, Bryant, and Haws have been the other WCC offerings. Looking at the offerings this year, it has to be Pangos. I just don't see it from the other contenders especially if GU only loses one conference game or even goes undefeated.

Hoopaholic
01-25-2015, 12:08 PM
It would be interesting to hear what coach Few's views are and criteria he utilizes

does he go off of most difficult to game plan for?
does he go off who "speared" us the most during year

or does he extend the criteria out to all of WCC play

does he go simply off stats (something tells me no)

mgadfly
01-25-2015, 12:24 PM
The only three options are Pangos, Waldow, and Haws unless one of the coaching staffs (GU or BYU) does something shocking and puts up a junior instead of their superstar seniors.

The case for Pangos: He is the best player on the league's best team. Those who suggest Wiltjer should get the nod from the staff over Pangos can make a statistical case. Wiltjer averages 15.8 points per game to go with 5.1 rebounds and 2 assists. On the offensive end of the court he has proven that he is a perfect compliment to Pangos' skill and shooting working the pick and pop to perfection. Wiltjer is 8th (Nationally!) on Ken Pomeroy's Player of the Year ranking. But Kevin Pangos is still the best player. First, this season Pangos' defensive intensity has been impressive. He averages 1.3 steals per game (2.5% steal rate on KP) in a system that does not encourage taking risks defensively. Offensively, he is the 2nd (Nationally!) most efficient player with a 139.8 offensive rating (per kenpom.com). He is averaging 12.4 points per game and shooting 47% from deep. He dishes out 4.9 assists per game and has a 24.4 assist rate to 13.5 turnover rate. Sometimes, being the "best" player isn't about scoring the most points or taking the most shots. Sometimes it is about leadership and incorporating 7 new players (including 2 starters) seamlessly into the system and doing so by taking less shots (even if you are the most efficient scoring guard in the country). There was a moment in yesterday's game where Pangos, done for the evening, was on the court during a timeout coaching his backup on what to do and how to run the offense. Engaged. Leading. Making teammates better.

The case for Brad Waldow: Of the three top players who have any chance of winning this award, Waldow is clearly the most important player to his team. Pangos has Wiltjer making a case that he is the best player for the Zags. Collinsworth (Mr. Triple Double) is probably the most well-rounded overall player in the league. You wouldn't be insane to say Haws is the second best player on BYU's squad. Waldow stands alone for his team (Carter is fine, but he isn't close to making the impact that Waldow does). Waldow's stat line, for one of the slowest tempo teams in the country, is sick: 20.2 points, 9.9 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 57% from the field and a 116.3 Offensive Rating. And he works hard. He sets the tone for the entire team boxing out, sealing defenders, moving around the block to get open, coming up high and setting picks and rolling to the basket. Even though he works that hard and plays so physical, he stays out of foul trouble and stays on the court. He plays about 85% of their minutes.

The case for Haws: quite simply, he scores a lot. He isn't the best player on his team. He doesn't play great defense. This year, he isn't even shooting that high of a percentage from beyond the arc (38%). Still, he scores 22.4 points per game and gets 4.5 rebounds. He also averages 2.5 assists per game. He is crafty and smart and gets to the free throw line where he converts them at a high rate. He is an efficient player with a 123.1 offensive rating. That's something considering how much of the load he is expected to carry for his team. If his team was in first place maybe it'd be different, but right now he's a distant third in the POY race.

The case for anybody else not on BYU, GU, or SMC: There isn't one. Johnny Dee doesn't pass the ball and plays for a losing team. Stacy Davis is an inefficient scorer. Brownridge or Clark aren't bad choices but they don't compare to the top three candidates from better teams.

I'd say at this point it is a pick em between Pangos and Waldow. If SMC beats us and ends up tied for the WCC regular season title I could see other coaches giving the nod to him due to his statistics. If Pangos leads GU into SMC and gets the W by beating the big W, then Pangos gets the nod for his leadership and management as much as his impressive efficiency.

RenoZag
01-25-2015, 12:30 PM
Nice write-up, gadfly. Thanks

Hoopaholic
01-25-2015, 12:34 PM
The only three options are Pangos, Waldow, and Haws unless one of the coaching staffs (GU or BYU) does something shocking and puts up a junior instead of their superstar seniors.

The case for Pangos: He is the best player on the league's best team. Those who suggest Wiltjer should get the nod from the staff over Pangos can make a statistical case. Wiltjer averages 15.8 points per game to go with 5.1 rebounds and 2 assists. On the offensive end of the court he has proven that he is a perfect compliment to Pangos' skill and shooting working the pick and pop to perfection. Wiltjer is 8th (Nationally!) on Ken Pomeroy's Player of the Year ranking. But Kevin Pangos is still the best player. First, this season Pangos' defensive intensity has been impressive. He averages 1.3 steals per game (2.5% steal rate on KP) in a system that does not encourage taking risks defensively. Offensively, he is the 2nd (Nationally!) most efficient player with a 139.8 offensive rating (per kenpom.com). He is averaging 12.4 points per game and shooting 47% from deep. He dishes out 4.9 assists per game and has a 24.4 assist rate to 13.5 turnover rate. Sometimes, being the "best" player isn't about scoring the most points or taking the most shots. Sometimes it is about leadership and incorporating 7 new players (including 2 starters) seamlessly into the system and doing so by taking less shots (even if you are the most efficient scoring guard in the country). There was a moment in yesterday's game where Pangos, done for the evening, was on the court during a timeout coaching his backup on what to do and how to run the offense. Engaged. Leading. Making teammates better.

The case for Brad Waldow: Of the three top players who have any chance of winning this award, Waldow is clearly the most important player to his team. Pangos has Wiltjer making a case that he is the best player for the Zags. Collinsworth (Mr. Triple Double) is probably the most well-rounded overall player in the league. You wouldn't be insane to say Haws is the second best player on BYU's squad. Waldow stands alone for his team (Carter is fine, but he isn't close to making the impact that Waldow does). Waldow's stat line, for one of the slowest tempo teams in the country, is sick: 20.2 points, 9.9 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 57% from the field and a 116.3 Offensive Rating. And he works hard. He sets the tone for the entire team boxing out, sealing defenders, moving around the block to get open, coming up high and setting picks and rolling to the basket. Even though he works that hard and plays so physical, he stays out of foul trouble and stays on the court. He plays about 85% of their minutes.

The case for Haws: quite simply, he scores a lot. He isn't the best player on his team. He doesn't play great defense. This year, he isn't even shooting that high of a percentage from beyond the arc (38%). Still, he scores 22.4 points per game and gets 4.5 rebounds. He also averages 2.5 assists per game. He is crafty and smart and gets to the free throw line where he converts them at a high rate. He is an efficient player with a 123.1 offensive rating. That's something considering how much of the load he is expected to carry for his team. If his team was in first place maybe it'd be different, but right now he's a distant third in the POY race.

The case for anybody else not on BYU, GU, or SMC: There isn't one. Johnny Dee doesn't pass the ball and plays for a losing team. Stacy Davis is an inefficient scorer. Brownridge or Clark aren't bad choices but they don't compare to the top three candidates from better teams.

I'd say at this point it is a pick em between Pangos and Waldow. If SMC beats us and ends up tied for the WCC regular season title I could see other coaches giving the nod to him due to his statistics. If Pangos leads GU into SMC and gets the W by beating the big W, then Pangos gets the nod for his leadership and management as much as his impressive efficiency.

well laid out......one could also argue that Pangos plays the least amount of minutes due to our ability to have a large lead
one could also argue that Waldo and hawes both have the offense ran DIRECTLY through them with many plays designed to get them specific shots, unlike Pangos who takes what is given and the offensive schemes is not centered on him alone

Martin Centre Mad Man
01-25-2015, 01:06 PM
Nice write-up, gadfly. Thanks

+1

kitzbuel
01-25-2015, 03:18 PM
Nice write-up, gadfly. Thanks

Agreed. I think Kevin's defense has been very underrated, even by us. I think his defensive play has matched Gary's frequently. He flys to close out open shooters and never over plays them or gets caught in the air. Teams struggle to break down GU's defense with high screens and skip passes because Kevin is so good at anticipating and quick enough to shut them down.

GU's depth and balance could well work to give coaches an excuse (a poor one) to not vote for him. His orchestration of the Zag offensive juggernaut is the most important feat in the WCC.