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View Full Version : Fouls - your take



zag buddy
01-20-2015, 12:44 PM
I am in favor of all our players having 4 fouls at the end of the game. To me this means that they are giving maximum effort on defense. If a player ends up having one or two fouls at the end of the game, it means there were many plays that they could have pushed the envelope on defense which could make a difference in the game. Many players that some would call dirty players are actually playing on the very edge of defense and since they are allowed 5 fouls they are walking a fine line between total defense for their ability and not fouling out, which to me is to be admired. So I would advise the Zag players that in the second half work to get 3 fouls by good tight defense and in the final minutes get your forth foul by really playing tight. They would know when they have gone to far by getting that 4th foul and then they could back off a bit. When I see a game where we finish the game and all our players have few fouls it means they were not putting forth maximum defensive effort. I mean that is why you are allowed 5 fouls. Each game will be called by the refs and the type of game called will vary from game to game. Also I speak in generalities not for any particular game, there are many variables.

zagfan24
01-20-2015, 12:51 PM
I get what you are trying to say...but a few holes in your logic.

First, team fouls is a consideration. It's a bad idea to get a poor offensive team into the bonus and double bonus too early in the half.


They would know when they have gone to far by getting that 4th foul and then they could back off a bit.
Secondly, the last thing you want players to be doing defensively at the end of the game is "backing off a bit."

Additionally, remember that you don't get extra fouls in overtime. Extra time isn't something you should play for necessarily, but the last thing you want is a game decided with your starters on the bench.

Finally, stating that having few fouls equates to "not maximum effort" is false. You can play strong, aggressive, smart defense without fouling.

Zagdawg
01-20-2015, 01:20 PM
Gotta agree with 24-- makes no sense for our team to put them on the line just because we have extra fouls to give-- stops the clock and gives many teams 60-70%+ chance of getting points --when we are holding them to 30-40% shooting on the floor.

DixieZag
01-20-2015, 01:23 PM
I get what you are trying to say...but a few holes in your logic.

First, team fouls is a consideration. It's a bad idea to get a poor offensive team into the bonus and double bonus too early in the half.


Secondly, the last thing you want players to be doing defensively at the end of the game is "backing off a bit."

Additionally, remember that you don't get extra fouls in overtime. Extra time isn't something you should play for necessarily, but the last thing you want is a game decided with your starters on the bench.

Finally, stating that having few fouls equates to "not maximum effort" is false. You can play strong, aggressive, smart defense without fouling.

Perfect reply. All I thought about was double bonus. But yes, end of game touch defense may be more important. Great post!

kitzbuel
01-20-2015, 01:30 PM
It is a rare luxury to be at the end of a tight game and have fouls to give before the other team is in the bonus. It is easy enough to fix if you want to get the other team to the free throw line, but you can't go back once you are in bonus.

zag buddy
01-20-2015, 01:42 PM
The unknown in these responses is how many more points would we have achieved by playing that tighter defense.
Here is something that some kind hearted stats person could tell us. I don't know the average teams free throw percentage but I would guess about 66% If you fouled they would make 2 out of 3 ( actually a lot less if they are not in the bonus sit. and they miss the first one). If a team scores 45% of the time and if the offense scores ?% of the time on turnovers and what percentage of the time does the offensive man get fouled in these situations is it worth it. If a big man is known to turn the ball over 1 out of 3 times when jumped by a double or triple team is it worth it. or if a guard turns the ball over 1 out of six times when jumped by a double team etc. I haven't figured anything out just my instincts that say use your fouls and take the chances.

Mantua
01-20-2015, 01:44 PM
I agree with zag buddy to some extent. I doubt that he is encouraging pointless fouls or for key players to get into foul trouble, but if a player continually has no fouls or one foul, I would suspect his defensive effort.

Sacre and Harris could have fouled Waldow and Young a little more in this game:



Official Basketball Box Score
GONZAGA BULLDOGS vs SAINT MARY'S GAELS
01/12/12 8:00 PM at McKEON PAVILION - MORAGA, CA


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VISITORS: GONZAGA BULLDOGS 13-3 (3-1 WCC)
TOT-FG 3-PT REBOUNDS
## Player Name FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OF DE TOT PF TP A TO BLK S MIN
20 HARRIS, Elias....... f 8-14 0-1 1-2 2 9 11 1 17 2 4 1 0 32
00 SACRE, Robert....... c 1-7 0-0 2-4 1 2 3 1 4 1 2 1 0 18
04 PANGOS, Kevin....... g 4-9 3-6 1-2 0 0 0 2 12 4 0 0 0 36
05 BELL JR., Gary...... g 2-7 2-3 0-1 0 1 1 3 6 3 3 0 0 32
30 HART, Mike.......... g 0-0 0-0 0-0 1 5 6 2 0 1 1 0 0 11
02 CARTER, Marquise.... 2-5 1-2 0-0 0 0 0 1 5 1 1 0 0 15
10 EDI, Guy Landry..... 2-4 0-0 0-1 1 2 3 0 4 1 0 0 0 11
11 STOCKTON, David..... 1-3 1-2 1-2 0 0 0 2 4 2 1 0 0 16
15 SPANGLER, Ryan...... 1-1 0-0 0-0 0 1 1 1 2 0 0 0 0 6
35 DOWER, Sam.......... 1-4 0-1 6-6 2 3 5 3 8 1 0 1 0 23
TEAM................ 3 3
Totals.............. 22-54 7-15 11-18 10 23 33 16 62 16 12 3 0 200

TOTAL FG% 1st Half: 11-29 37.9% 2nd Half: 11-25 44.0% Game: 40.7% DEADB
3-Pt. FG% 1st Half: 4-7 57.1% 2nd Half: 3-8 37.5% Game: 46.7% REBS
F Throw % 1st Half: 3-6 50.0% 2nd Half: 8-12 66.7% Game: 61.1% 2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOME TEAM: SAINT MARY'S GAELS 16-2 (5-0 WCC)
TOT-FG 3-PT REBOUNDS
## Player Name FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OF DE TOT PF TP A TO BLK S MIN
00 WALDOW, Brad........ f 6-8 0-0 5-7 4 6 10 3 17 0 0 1 0 22
22 JONES, Rob.......... f 1-6 0-3 0-0 3 8 11 3 2 8 2 0 2 33
01 PAGE, Jorden........ g 0-5 0-2 2-2 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 1 2 15
04 DELLAVEDOVA, Matthew g 10-16 5-10 1-2 0 0 0 4 26 6 1 0 0 39
14 HOLT, Stephen....... g 5-8 1-2 2-2 1 4 5 3 13 6 2 0 0 37
03 YOUNG, Mitchell..... 4-5 0-0 4-6 1 5 6 2 12 0 0 1 1 17
05 ROWLEY, Kyle........ 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
11 STEINDL, Clint...... 2-7 2-6 0-0 0 2 2 2 6 0 0 0 0 26
15 LEVESQUE, Beau...... 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
24 PETRULIS, Eividas... 0-1 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
25 WILLIAMS, Tim....... 1-1 1-1 0-0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 2
30 WALKER II, Kenton... 1-2 0-1 0-0 0 1 1 2 2 0 0 0 0 5
TEAM................
Totals.............. 30-59 9-25 14-19 9 27 36 19 83 21 5 3 5 200

TOTAL FG% 1st Half: 14-30 46.7% 2nd Half: 16-29 55.2% Game: 50.8% DEADB
3-Pt. FG% 1st Half: 4-12 33.3% 2nd Half: 5-13 38.5% Game: 36.0% REBS
F Throw % 1st Half: 5-8 62.5% 2nd Half: 9-11 81.8% Game: 73.7% 2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Officials: Frank Harvey, Sam Haddad, Glen Mayberry
Technical fouls: GONZAGA BULLDOGS-None. SAINT MARY'S GAELS-None.
Attendance: 3500
Score by Periods 1st 2nd Total
GONZAGA BULLDOGS.............. 29 33 - 62
SAINT MARY'S GAELS............ 37 46 - 83

Points in the paint-GON 30,SMC 38. Points off turnovers-GON 5,SMC 18.
2nd chance points-GON 12,SMC 13. Fast break points-GON 2,SMC 0.
Bench points-GON 23,SMC 23. Score tied-5 times. Lead changed-4 times.
Last FG-GON 2nd-00:34, SMC 2nd-00:43.
Largest lead-GON by 3 1st-10:08, SMC by 24 2nd-00:43.

Zagdawg
01-20-2015, 02:06 PM
Top 10 teams in fouls per game-- does it equate to top ranking/wins?

RANK TEAM GM FOULS PFPG DQ
1 Wyoming 17 224 13.2 3
2 Northeastern 16 212 13.3 2
3 Wisconsin 17 227 13.4 1
4 Notre Dame 17 235 13.8 4
5 American 16 222 13.9 1
6 Michigan 17 244 14.4 1
7 Southern Miss. 14 201 14.4 0
8 Citadel 16 232 14.5 6
9 William & Mary 15 218 14.5 6
10 George Washington 16 233 14.6 1

zag buddy
01-20-2015, 02:12 PM
John Stockton,( you know the one in the commercials) could give a mini seminar to the players on when and how to attempt the steal. If there are any statistic majors with a love for basketball out there, you could do a paper on "The probabilities of intelligent fouls in basketball" and make a case statistically when it is good policy and when it is not. you would most likely get a good grade for creativity but also might affect how all coaches look at fouling.

Zagger
01-20-2015, 02:28 PM
Lots of fouls likely correlates to a higher incidence of injuries (is there a stat for that?). Anywho, we don't need any more injuries in college BB.

hondo
01-20-2015, 03:02 PM
One of the problems with fouling is that the refs are so inconsistent. You never know what they are going to call next. One might find themselves with 2 or 3 quick ones and out of the game.
Also a higher number of fouls can be the result of being behind slightly toward the end of the game.

seacatfan
01-20-2015, 06:22 PM
Totally disagree with the premise. Depending on when you pick up foul #2, #3 and #4, it can lead to lots of sitting on the bench for a given player and affect how aggressively they can play on both offense and defense when they are in the game. Also I don't see a correlation between playing hard and picking up fouls. Many fouls are due to a lack of concentration and momentary mental lapse, not playing good defense.

seacatfan
01-20-2015, 06:24 PM
One of the problems with fouling is that the refs are so inconsistent. You never know what they are going to call next. One might find themselves with 2 or 3 quick ones and out of the game.
Also a higher number of fouls can be the result of being behind slightly toward the end of the game.

Yeah, this. If refs were predictable you could somewhat "manage" how many fouls you pick up. As we all know refs are anything but predictable and consistent, so avoiding getting called for fouls to the extent you can seems like the best strategy.

zagamatic
01-21-2015, 02:23 AM
In no way am I trying to be disrespectful to the OP, but in my experience proper defense is predicated on anticipation, proper technique, footwork and athletic ability. Poor defense is what leads to fouling. What I mean by that is that fouls are generally a result of being out of position, reaching, bumping or getting twisted around by the offensive player. On nearly every team I've ever played on I have been known as one of the best defenders and I can honestly only remember having 4 fouls twice and never fouled out. But I did quite often frustrate the opposition's best player frequently holding them to 10 points or less.

CarolinaZagFan
01-21-2015, 03:50 AM
I hate the whole foul at the end of the first half thing when your team has fouls to give before reaching the bonus. Sure you're not in the bonus, but those cheapies could put your guy in foul trouble in the second half. IMO 2 points isn't worth 2-3 cheap fouls.

gonzagafan62
01-21-2015, 06:34 AM
I hate the whole foul at the end of the first half thing when your team has fouls to give before reaching the bonus. Sure you're not in the bonus, but those cheapies could put your guy in foul trouble in the second half. IMO 2 points isn't worth 2-3 cheap fouls.

Maybe Dustin Triano could come in and foul? Lol