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View Full Version : The WCC is getting inconsistent officiating because it's not paying competitively?



BYU
01-20-2015, 12:36 PM
<Deleted--Can I delete the whole post?>

LongIslandZagFan
01-20-2015, 12:46 PM
JMHO... I find WCC games tend toward unwatchable. Not for quality of play but rather the refs killing the flow of the game and being all over the place with the calls. The BYU/SMC game should have been so much more enjoyable but instead most of the first half and early second half it was whistle after whistle... you know it is bad when a GU fan is screaming "Can you just let them play the damn game!" at the TV when the Zags aren't even playing.

cjm720
01-20-2015, 12:47 PM
WCC refs are by far the worst I've seen from any conference this year. I wonder if there are some stats out there to confirm this?

zagfan24
01-20-2015, 12:56 PM
A point of emphasis needs to be made on the guard push off. WCC officials are categorically horrible at calling fouls on big men in the paint when a smaller guard drives, pushes off with their off arm, and falls away from the basket. It's not a difficult move to catch but continues to be called incorrectly at the detriment of bigs across the conference.

That said, at first glance I don't see any WCC teams on this list: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/286 Not that it would capture the quality of officiating, just the quantity of calls made.

ETA: BYU does top this list, for what it's worth: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/638

LongIslandZagFan
01-20-2015, 01:00 PM
A point of emphasis needs to be made on the guard push off. WCC officials are categorically horrible at calling fouls on big men in the paint when a smaller guard drives, pushes off with their off arm, and falls away from the basket. It's not a difficult move to catch but continues to be called incorrectly at the detriment of bigs across the conference.

That said, at first glance I don't see any WCC teams on this list: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/286 Not that it would capture the quality of officiating, just the quantity of calls made.

ETA: BYU does top this list, for what it's worth: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/638

Keep in mind that is in ASCENDING order... you go to page 2 and 3 you start to see WCC teams in bulk. Averaging around 17-19 PFs per game.

Once and Future Zag
01-20-2015, 01:01 PM
I saw a few years back that the WCC pulls from the same pool of refs that do the Pac12 and at least one other conference (MWC? Big West) - so it kind of is what it is...

zagfan24
01-20-2015, 01:07 PM
Keep in mind that is in ASCENDING order... you go to page 2 and 3 you start to see WCC teams in bulk. Averaging around 17-19 PFs per game.

Ahhh my bad...thanks for pointing that out.

kitzbuel
01-20-2015, 01:10 PM
Keep in mind that is in ASCENDING order... you go to page 2 and 3 you start to see WCC teams in bulk. Averaging around 17-19 PFs per game.

It would be nice if they included conference affiliation so you could do some comparisons. It is a bit too painful for me to stick this all in a spreadsheet and then update the conferences.

kitzbuel
01-20-2015, 01:14 PM
<Deleted--Can I delete the whole post?>

I am assuming you started this in reference to this post on Cougar Boards.

http://www.cougarboard.com/board/message.html?id=13603539

DixieZag
01-20-2015, 01:14 PM
I would like to hear what others think. I am NO BYU fan, but I think BYU clearly got hosed at 30 something second left in the game against SMC. BYU was down 1, had the ball and looked to be going for the last shot. They had run clock and then the guard drives and is guarded tight. They made contact in upper body, neither was thrown off their feet, both were guilty of going in tight. The foul could just as easily been called on SMC. Foul called 20 feet from the basket on minimal contact in the last minute. Truly awful and truly a case where the game was practically decided by the officials.

Had we had a ref like that against Arizona, we get two calls on the play in the last seconds.

sittingon50
01-20-2015, 01:24 PM
I would like to hear what others think. I am NO BYU fan, but I think BYU clearly got hosed at 30 something second left in the game against SMC. BYU was down 1, had the ball and looked to be going for the last shot. They had run clock and then the guard drives and is guarded tight. They made contact in upper body, neither was thrown off their feet, both were guilty of going in tight. The foul could just as easily been called on SMC. Foul called 20 feet from the basket on minimal contact in the last minute. Truly awful and truly a case where the game was practically decided by the officials.

Had we had a ref like that against Arizona, we get two calls on the play in the last seconds.

I thought it was a foul on the BYU kid.

mgadfly
01-20-2015, 01:45 PM
Kenpom has a study here (http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/entry/ted_valentine_hates_to_call_fouls).

If you know any of the officials we've used (which you can get from box scores on ESPN) you can look them up on the quick whistle index.

mgadfly
01-20-2015, 01:48 PM
And my anecdotal observations are that the WCC calls games tight. I'd love to know whether my observations are accurate.

I wish all the conferences called contact more often and the game loosened up. But how it works out is the games are called tight in some conferences during some games throughout the year. Then you get to the post season and the games suddenly become much more physical. We'd be better served to play under the same rules the tournament games are going to have even if in a perfect world officials would get rid of a lot of the contact in the game.

TheGonzagaFactor
01-20-2015, 02:02 PM
I would like to hear what others think. I am NO BYU fan, but I think BYU clearly got hosed at 30 something second left in the game against SMC. BYU was down 1, had the ball and looked to be going for the last shot. They had run clock and then the guard drives and is guarded tight. They made contact in upper body, neither was thrown off their feet, both were guilty of going in tight. The foul could just as easily been called on SMC. Foul called 20 feet from the basket on minimal contact in the last minute. Truly awful and truly a case where the game was practically decided by the officials.

Had we had a ref like that against Arizona, we get two calls on the play in the last seconds.

I thought that was a terrible call and a perfect example of the sad direction basketball is taking in recent years.

Zagger
01-20-2015, 02:07 PM
I know I'd make a lousy ref - even if I had each and every rule ingrained, by heart, lickety split, etc. I just don't see how they can see everything when so much of the action is fast, fast, fast + you have each kid doing the "who, me?", flopping, pinching, kicking, telling their opponent that their Ma swims after troop ships, yadda, yadda. Throw in coaches spewing verbage, etc., fans yelling choice things about the ref's libido ..... I'll bet they make some calls just to have some 'fun'! Ain't college ball great! :)

Hoopaholic
01-20-2015, 03:12 PM
I saw a few years back that the WCC pulls from the same pool of refs that do the Pac12 and at least one other conference (MWC? Big West) - so it kind of is what it is...

still do......at least with pac 12....

Zagceo
01-20-2015, 03:46 PM
I'll I can ask for is consistency ……….some calls will be missed I get it …………but I don't like it when a player is in the air going to the hoop and the 3 refs are the only ones that didn't see the contact. That really pissed me off a couple off times at LMU. Few and especially Tommy road the refs after one with KW and then it happened again with someone else I forget who but the point is why call hand checks and let dangerous play go. I was yelling "somebody gonna get hurt"!

NanookZag
01-20-2015, 03:48 PM
Emailed that link to a friend who officiates NCAA women. Here is his response.

I don’t know how it works on the men’s side, but officials can’t go after the money because it is assigned from the top down in that order. Meaning the Pac assigns first and then on down. So if an official takes a WCC and then is contacted to work a game in the Pac the same night, that is not looked upon favorably. Again, I don’t know how it works in men’s. But it is true that the Pac gets first crack at the top officials. BYU’s coach is valid. If you want better officials then schedule your games on other nights than the Pac plays. However, the problem is that you don’t develop anyone coming up. You need games to get better and establish credibility in these conferences.

djdallaszag
01-20-2015, 04:43 PM
Emailed that link to a friend who officiates NCAA women. Here is his response.

I don’t know how it works on the men’s side, but officials can’t go after the money because it is assigned from the top down in that order. Meaning the Pac assigns first and then on down. So if an official takes a WCC and then is contacted to work a game in the Pac the same night, that is not looked upon favorably. Again, I don’t know how it works in men’s. But it is true that the Pac gets first crack at the top officials. BYU’s coach is valid. If you want better officials then schedule your games on other nights than the Pac plays. However, the problem is that you don’t develop anyone coming up. You need games to get better and establish credibility in these conferences.

Cool perspective. But, let them practice on the Mountain West. We're conference # 7 now, baby! (done in Dukie V voice)

Kong-Kool-Aid
01-20-2015, 07:29 PM
still do......at least with pac 12....


Problem is WCC pays less and since WCC games are on the same night as the Pac-12 and other conferences (Thursdays especially) We are getting the leftovers after they have scooped up the best refs.

So... really the answer is yes it's the same pool... but the WCC tends to get the crap at the bottom of the pool.

BYU
01-20-2015, 08:17 PM
I am assuming you started this in reference to this post on Cougar Boards.

http://www.cougarboard.com/board/message.html?id=13603539

Yeah, but I was headed out the door when I threw a post up over here and I wasn't sure it was worth posting. Roses supposed comments sounded like they might be genuine and I was curious what the thoughts would be over here would be.

Lots of great insights in the thread. Thanks! It sounds like it may not be the kind of issue that would be solved by spending more money. Too bad. I like it when simple solutions work.

seacatfan
01-20-2015, 08:27 PM
Officiating in the Pac 12 is complained about on par with complaining here. Makes sense since it's the same pool, but as far as the Pac getting the better refs, maybe not that much better. Dave Libbey has tainted both conferences.

Zag 77
01-20-2015, 09:04 PM
All of the posts here seem to be making a big assumption, namely that there is a some significant difference in pay scale between conferences. There has to be some way to determine if there is a published pay scale for refs by conferences. Maybe some refs would rather do Pac 12 games because of the perceived prestige or location. Would you rather go to L.A. for the weekend or Stockton, CA?

At the HS level, refs belong to a state association. Is there not either national or regional referee associations that manage ref assignments and pay scale? I know that in soccer in most places there are gradations of referees based on testing, number of games worked in one's career, etc. Is it possible that we are just talking about senior refs simply getting paid more regardless of conference?

Surely there must be some refs out there who lurk on this board.

drvenkman05
01-21-2015, 06:02 AM
I think the ever-lingering "Dave Libbey Effect" on the WCC is perfectly captured here ("Talking about consistency….I can call the same call, differently, in different parts of the game, and still be right.").

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dm67Gk_pRk


Officiating in the Pac 12 is complained about on par with complaining here. Makes sense since it's the same pool, but as far as the Pac getting the better refs, maybe not that much better. Dave Libbey has tainted both conferences.

Zagsker
01-21-2015, 06:30 AM
I'll I can ask for is consistency ……….some calls will be missed I get it …………but I don't like it when a player is in the air going to the hoop and the 3 refs are the only ones that didn't see the contact. That really pissed me off a couple off times at LMU. Few and especially Tommy road the refs after one with KW and then it happened again with someone else I forget who but the point is why call hand checks and let dangerous play go. I was yelling "somebody gonna get hurt"!


Contact does not always = foul

Especially when a player drives in and created contact on the defender. The defender has a right to his vertical plane

kitzbuel
01-21-2015, 09:33 AM
All of the posts here seem to be making a big assumption, namely that there is a some significant difference in pay scale between conferences. There has to be some way to determine if there is a published pay scale for refs by conferences. Maybe some refs would rather do Pac 12 games because of the perceived prestige or location. Would you rather go to L.A. for the weekend or Stockton, CA?

At the HS level, refs belong to a state association. Is there not either national or regional referee associations that manage ref assignments and pay scale? I know that in soccer in most places there are gradations of referees based on testing, number of games worked in one's career, etc. Is it possible that we are just talking about senior refs simply getting paid more regardless of conference?

Surely there must be some refs out there who lurk on this board.


The PAC12 location vs WCC location doesn't really work. They pretty much overlay each other. It is not like Stockton or Provo are outrageously far away from SFO or SLC. No different that Pullman, Salem or Corvallis.

Hoopaholic
01-21-2015, 11:02 AM
All of the posts here seem to be making a big assumption, namely that there is a some significant difference in pay scale between conferences. There has to be some way to determine if there is a published pay scale for refs by conferences. Maybe some refs would rather do Pac 12 games because of the perceived prestige or location. Would you rather go to L.A. for the weekend or Stockton, CA?

At the HS level, refs belong to a state association. Is there not either national or regional referee associations that manage ref assignments and pay scale? I know that in soccer in most places there are gradations of referees based on testing, number of games worked in one's career, etc. Is it possible that we are just talking about senior refs simply getting paid more regardless of conference?

Surely there must be some refs out there who lurk on this board.

according to my friend who is a PAC/WCC official the pay is same, perks are little better with PAC as in hotel, per diem and ticket allotment but baseline pay according to him is the same

Zagceo
01-21-2015, 11:21 AM
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac342/ceo_500/bb5cb48d-4019-46ba-9b4c-c44643ae55eb_zpsa51a523f.jpg

Shem making the point that Referees should invest in more continuing education classes………..or not

SunDevilGolfZag
01-21-2015, 11:45 AM
Basketball would be much more fun to watch if fouls were only called when the fouler gains an advantage. In WCC games there are way too many irrelevant touches called as fouls or plays where the offensive player iniates contact with the defender just for the sake of contact. Ruins the game to call that stuff, IMO

gonzagafan62
01-21-2015, 12:02 PM
Basketball would be much more fun to watch if fouls were only called when the fouler gains an advantage. In WCC games there are way too many irrelevant touches called as fouls or plays where the offensive player iniates contact with the defender just for the sake of contact. Ruins the game to call that stuff, IMO

I totally agree. Totally agree.