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Zagricultural
01-15-2015, 07:53 PM
SMH... Seriously this is one of my biggest fear that we will have an end of half play to win or lose a Tournament game. If so we are in trouble. RUN. THE. OFFENSE!!!!

raise the zag
01-15-2015, 07:57 PM
we try to run a one-on-one spread set with a guy who isn't about running one-on-one iso plays. (if we must go that route, put Melson or Wesley up top, not really a classic Zag set, imo)

trying to be something we're not -- too much like a Big East playground offense at the end of a half or game.

Be us.

if nothing else, launch a 3 for goodness sake.

U Zig, I Zag
01-15-2015, 08:00 PM
Run the regular offensive set with everyone watching the clock until about 4 to go and then that person 'do his thing' - this team knows how to score.

jazzdelmar
01-15-2015, 08:02 PM
Ahh so this is where the sensible posters are. No apologists.

raise the zag
01-15-2015, 08:04 PM
Doesn't matter the year or team or players, we can't close out halves or games at a high level, approximately 4 min mark and under.

We get too cute with lineups, predictable plays, and way too much worry over non-foul trouble issues.

We have depth these days, use it appropriately. We Coach the end of halves and games like all our players have 4 fouls and we only go 6 deep.

Been going on for years now.

hooter73
01-15-2015, 09:17 PM
out of bounds set plays used to be a speciality. A guarantee. So which coach that left was the one that drew them up?

tinfoilzag
01-15-2015, 09:21 PM
Somebody Few respects has had to of said something to him about it. It has been so bad for years. Maybe a video compilation of how bad that play is or a statistical breakdown to open his eyes.

I have to believe we score less than 20% on the guard iso that we use now. Insanity.

Zags11
01-15-2015, 09:28 PM
It is and has been bad for years.

spike_jr
01-15-2015, 09:34 PM
I do not understand why we just don't run our normal offense at the end of the half - the same offense that got you a lead (and not the harlem globetrotters three man weave at the top of the key). You don't necessarily have to shoot the ball, but if you get a layup or a dunk, take it. I would rather see and easy basket with 5 seconds left in the half as that is much better than a 20ft contested jump shot as time expires, that is if we even get a shot.

CDC84
01-15-2015, 09:36 PM
Few seems to feel in these situations that it is better not to score than to do anything to let the other team have the basketball with any time on the clock. Hence, why his guards drain the shot clock and don't do anything until the final ticks.

DixieZag
01-15-2015, 09:37 PM
Doesn't matter the year or team or players, we can't close out halves or games at a high level, approximately 4 min mark and under.

We get too cute with lineups, predictable plays, and way too much worry over non-foul trouble issues.

We have depth these days, use it appropriately. We Coach the end of halves and games like all our players have 4 fouls and we only go 6 deep.

Been going on for years now.

This.

And, no, it's not like mentioning it means we don't appreciate winning, or love the coach, or demand perfection, but this has to get fixed, happened in the past, Memphis, several others, this year AZ, BYU, Pepp. Both halves.

Can't do it.

23dpg
01-15-2015, 09:48 PM
out of bounds set plays used to be a speciality. A guarantee. So which coach that left was the one that drew them up?

Few is still very good at out of bounds plays. I remember we scored an easy bucket coming out of a timeout in the second half.
Where he doesn't excel is end of half plays. I agree with others, run the offense.

TacomaZAG
01-16-2015, 08:07 AM
Few is still very good at out of bounds plays. I remember we scored an easy bucket coming out of a timeout in the second half.
Where he doesn't excel is end of half plays. I agree with others, run the offense.

Coach is and has been very good on out-of bounds plays under our basket, but not on out of bounds plays on the side of the court. Also, I agree with the sentiment that our end of half offense is HORRIBLE.

Go ZAGS

SWZag
01-16-2015, 08:47 AM
2 minutes earlier and no one would criticize the play...

zag buddy
01-16-2015, 10:23 AM
Let's see--with 29 seconds left take your smallest man on the court, have him dribble for 25 seconds and then drive into the opponents tallest plays and shoot--genius
If you were to guess, which coach drew up this play for us, ours or opponents.

TheGonzagaFactor
01-16-2015, 10:38 AM
I think it'd work reasonably often if we just started the play 2-3 seconds earlier. We don't initiate the move towards the basket until there are about 6 seconds left, which makes it nearly impossible for anyone but the player starting with the ball to get a shot. If we start a bit earlier, then you can drive and kick out to a shooter if the drive is covered up. We don't give ourselves that option.

zagfan24
01-16-2015, 10:41 AM
It is hardly unique to Few. A lot of teams use this same strategy. The book "Scorecasting" suggested that most coaching mistakes were the result of risk aversion...that coaches try to avoid a negative outcome instead of take a chance at a positive outcome.

It'd be interesting to see that statistics on this one. If you do start the play a little bit earlier, you have the chance at an offensive put-back and have the opportunity to make a pass if the defense collapses. Even if the other team ends up with the ball they may have 2-3 seconds left to score.

john montana
01-16-2015, 11:00 AM
I think it'd work reasonably often if we just started the play 2-3 seconds earlier. We don't initiate the move towards the basket until there are about 6 seconds left, which makes it nearly impossible for anyone but the player starting with the ball to get a shot. If we start a bit earlier, then you can drive and kick out to a shooter if the drive is covered up. We don't give ourselves that option.

This. I don't think it is a horrible play, but Pangos is just not good at creating something in this set. He waits too long, and lets the defense push him where he doesn't want to go. Wrong personnel.

TimZag
01-16-2015, 11:55 AM
I was sitting right behind the bench. The coaches were yelling at Sabonis to set the screen well before he started moving towards Pangos, they definitely weren't happy about how late the play started.

I'm guessing the plan was to start the play with about 10 seconds left to give Pangos more options. The execution deserves more bemoaning than the strategy.

DADoZAG
01-16-2015, 12:19 PM
I was sitting right behind the bench. The coaches were yelling at Sabonis to set the screen well before he started moving towards Pangos, they definitely weren't happy about how late the play started.

I'm guessing the plan was to start the play with about 10 seconds left to give Pangos more options. The execution deserves more bemoaning than the strategy.

I'm not a successful D1 coach, but perhaps using the soon to be gone anyway timeout would have been appropriate?

Playing not to lose usually increases it's possibility, as does playing to win.

Go ZAGS!

kitzbuel
01-16-2015, 01:13 PM
Few seems to feel in these situations that it is better not to score than to do anything to let the other team have the basketball with any time on the clock. Hence, why his guards drain the shot clock and don't do anything until the final ticks.

That is my impression. He would rather have a 25% shot with the opponent having a near 0% opportunity than a 50% shot and the opponent having a 20-30% opportunity.

zag944
01-16-2015, 01:28 PM
my friends and I still jokingly call the end of half possession the "Blake Stepp play". Dribble, dribble, dribble, followed by highly contested jumper or 26 foot 3 point attempt.

DADoZAG
01-16-2015, 03:10 PM
That is my impression. He would rather have a 25% shot with the opponent having a near 0% opportunity than a 50% shot and the opponent having a 20-30% opportunity.

Numbers, percentages, odds are all important factors, and Few's a genius at working them to the benefit of the ZAGS. Of that there is no doubt, of that we are very blessed.

Problem is that athletes in the throes of battle don't give a hoot about percentages. The athletes are the ones that must perform so whatever it takes to improve performance is the critical path.

Again, playing not to lose increases it's possibility, as does playing to win. The difference between the two is mindset.

Sorry to drone on, way to much negative karma for the day between games. Much bigger fish to fry, and another WCC foe to vanquish.

Go ZAGS! Beat, LMU!

RenoZag
01-17-2015, 12:54 PM
More of the same lack of imagination at the end of the 1st half vs. LMU

HenneZag
01-17-2015, 12:56 PM
More of the same lack of imagination at the end of the 1st half vs. LMU

I don't get it. I don't see how the staff continues to go with that.

RenoZag
01-17-2015, 12:58 PM
I don't get it. I don't see how the staff continues to go with that.

It's a frigging mystery

jpn17
01-17-2015, 12:59 PM
I pretty much agree. Who cares if you have the last shot of the first half? "We were up 12 at half, but we ended up losing because we shot a basket with 10 seconds left in the first half and they came down and scored so we were only up 12 instead of 14 and that's why we lost." Has anyone ever said that? I mean really. Last shot of the first half is meaningless.

zag buddy
01-17-2015, 01:01 PM
jpn, it's practice for tougher times when we need it.

Zagricultural
01-17-2015, 01:04 PM
Sigh... Couldn't believe it when it happened again... I must admit I screamed a little when Pangos was just standing up there dribbling. RUN THE OFFENSE!

CDC84
01-17-2015, 01:06 PM
Again, I think Few's number one mission during these end of half situations is to not give the other team any time score. If Gonzaga doesn't score, so be it. Drain the clock and hope it goes in. That's my observation through the years. He doesn't want the other team to have the ball. He's not going to run a sophisticated set that could produce a turnover or anything that gives the other team a chance to get a quality shot up.

RenoZag
01-17-2015, 01:12 PM
Again, I think Few's number one mission during these end of half situations is to not give the other team any time score. If Gonzaga doesn't score, so be it. Drain the clock and hope it goes in. That's my observation through the years. He doesn't want the other team to have the ball. He's not going to run a sophisticated set that could produce a turnover or anything that gives the other team a chance to get a quality shot up.

CDC you may be right but with the size we have inside, I would like to see them take it to the paint and maybe draw a foul or (gasp!) score.

U Zig, I Zag
01-17-2015, 02:03 PM
Again, I think Few's number one mission during these end of half situations is to not give the other team any time score. If Gonzaga doesn't score, so be it. Drain the clock and hope it goes in. That's my observation through the years. He doesn't want the other team to have the ball. He's not going to run a sophisticated set that could produce a turnover or anything that gives the other team a chance to get a quality shot up.

We run hundreds and hundreds of sets to get the shots we want all year and rarely turn it over. If you shoot like we do, not taking a good shot might as well be a turnover. Leaving points on the court and not on the scoreboard. Seems backwards to me.

Hoopaholic
01-17-2015, 02:06 PM
with games not in jeopardy why tip your hand

gobroncsgozags
01-17-2015, 03:19 PM
We run hundreds and hundreds of sets to get the shots we want all year and rarely turn it over. If you shoot like we do, not taking a good shot might as well be a turnover. Leaving points on the court and not on the scoreboard. Seems backwards to me.

Exactly. If we are so afraid of turning the ball over with 10 seconds left, shouldn't we be just as afraid of it when there are 10 minutes? Points are points. I guess we should just run iso all game.

DixieZag
01-17-2015, 03:29 PM
Even if we want to run clock to ensure the other team doesn't score, why can't we run Kyle or Gary off two picks and do a give and go or something? It's not like running clock means you have to iso and have Kevin try his Jordan impression.

I'm no coach, but when something is just so clearly not working, I don't get it.

maynard g krebs
01-17-2015, 05:07 PM
Again, I think Few's number one mission during these end of half situations is to not give the other team any time score. If Gonzaga doesn't score, so be it. Drain the clock and hope it goes in. That's my observation through the years. He doesn't want the other team to have the ball. He's not going to run a sophisticated set that could produce a turnover or anything that gives the other team a chance to get a quality shot up.

That's the "don't foul up 3 late" discussion all over again. He learned he was wrong on that one.

Chicken Ball
01-17-2015, 06:43 PM
Again, I think Few's number one mission during these end of half situations is to not give the other team any time score. If Gonzaga doesn't score, so be it. Drain the clock and hope it goes in. That's my observation through the years. He doesn't want the other team to have the ball. He's not going to run a sophisticated set that could produce a turnover or anything that gives the other team a chance to get a quality shot up.

Agreed. But why does the philosophy change at the end of the first half? Why is that possession so special? Why treat it different than any possession earlier in the half?

zagfan24
01-17-2015, 06:52 PM
Agreed. But why does the philosophy change at the end of the first half? Why is that possession so special? Why treat it different than any possession earlier in the half?

Technically the possession is different in that, if time expires, the other team doesn't have the opportunity to score. BUT i agree with the general sentiment that it should be treated like any other possession. It all boils down to probabilities.

Half time is a somewhat arbitrary time point in a game but is not treated as such. As another example, a player with 2 fouls often sits until the half and then is put in right away after halftime. There's really nothing different about the last minute of the first half and the first minute of the second.

CDC84
01-17-2015, 09:45 PM
Agreed. But why does the philosophy change at the end of the first half? Why is that possession so special? Why treat it different than any possession earlier in the half?

Because he doesn't want to give any game momentum to the other team going into the half. How many times have we seen college basketball games completely change as a result of a trailing team making a shot at the end of the half?

I am in agreement with most people in this thread. I wish they would run better stuff at the end of the half, but this has been going on for years and years, and I have come to the conclusion that Few's main priority in these situations is to not allow the other team to score to end the half.

ZagaZags
01-22-2015, 08:13 PM
Pffffffft

seacatfan
01-22-2015, 09:08 PM
Par for the course tonight. Ridiculous. Didn't even prevent the opponent from getting a good look, but they whiffed of a shot from point blank range.

Martin Centre Mad Man
01-22-2015, 09:10 PM
Even if we want to run clock to ensure the other team doesn't score, why can't we run Kyle or Gary off two picks and do a give and go or something? It's not like running clock means you have to iso and have Kevin try his Jordan impression.

I'm no coach, but when something is just so clearly not working, I don't get it.

Yup. Run some offense and see what happens. If you find a cutter for an open lay-in, take it.

Zagdawg
01-22-2015, 09:10 PM
But that end of game play was terrible---they had like 20 seconds and they still did not take a shot. ;)

CDC84
01-22-2015, 09:12 PM
Tonight was surprising because they couldn't run out the game clock. There was something like a 4 second difference between the game and shot clock.

soccerdud
01-22-2015, 09:29 PM
run. the. damn. offense.

GrizZAG
01-22-2015, 09:30 PM
The foul situation impacts the strategy on that last set. We can "just play"...but if they get the ball and drive hard, draw the desired foul and might get to the line as well. If we are in foul trouble early, it is the smart option to burn clock and drive. We might draw the foul and get to the line.

RenoZag
01-22-2015, 09:39 PM
Tonight was surprising because they couldn't run out the game clock. There was something like a 4 second difference between the game and shot clock.

It wasn't surprising at all. It was terrible as usual.

Mantua
01-22-2015, 09:53 PM
I can see Few's reasoning, but wow it's boring to watch.

CDC84
01-22-2015, 09:58 PM
It wasn't surprising at all. It was terrible as usual.

You're missing the point.

Unlike most of these end of half deals, there was a 4 second differential between the game clock and the shot clock. Few couldn't avoid giving the ball to St. Mary's for the final shot. Therefore, I was surprised he didn't draw up a better play. It was a different situation tonight. It's also possible that Pangos wasn't aware of the difference between the game clock and shot clock.

If the shot clock is off, Few only cares about one thing on offense. He just wants to get to the half without the other team getting any chance to score. If Pangos were to throw up a shot from behind his back from 35 feet with the game clock expiring, that's mission accomplished. Whether it's right or wrong, I have come to believe that it's his genuine coaching philosophy when it comes to handling these situations.

I was far more perturbed by the crummy defense GU played in that final 4 seconds. They almost gave SMC momentum going into the half, which is something that Few really doesn't want.

zag buddy
01-22-2015, 10:01 PM
did it again, smallest man on the court dribbles around and then charges into the tallest players to shoot.

RenoZag
01-22-2015, 10:14 PM
You're missing the point.

No, you are. You keep trotting out excuses for why the end of the half or near the end of the half plays are such dog doo, chalking it up to some grand strategy.

We disagree. You can accept it and I refuse to.

Zags got another "W" CDC, that's really all that matters tonight.

Cheers

CDC84
01-22-2015, 10:19 PM
This has been going on for too many years Reno for me to not pick up a pattern. It is his philosophy. This guy is an offensive mastermind. If he really felt that scoring at the end of the half were more important than possibly giving the other team the ball and a chance to take game momentum going into the half, we would be seeing far better execution.

I don't necessarily agree w/ the philosophy. But I 100% believe it is his philosophy, because his teams have not put much effort into scoring when the shot clock goes off at the end of the 1st half for years and years and years.

It used to drive me nuts when Jeremy Pargo would run the game clock down to 5 seconds before he made his move. He did it countless times. I now realize years later that that was what the coach told him to do.

RenoZag
01-22-2015, 10:25 PM
It's maddening.

Go Zags!

ZagaZags
01-22-2015, 11:05 PM
I hope we aren't down by 1 with 25 seconds to go in March Madness.

WallaWallaZag
01-23-2015, 03:55 AM
I hope we aren't down by 1 with 25 seconds to go in March Madness.

no kidding...zags were in some similar situations in the zona game and never got off a good shot. hey, i'm fine if few wants to make sure he gets the last shot, but how about giving it to someone like wesley who can actually attack one-on-one.

jazzdelmar
01-23-2015, 04:19 AM
no kidding...zags were in some similar situations in the zona game and never got off a good shot. hey, i'm fine if few wants to make sure he gets the last shot, but how about giving it to someone like wesley who can actually attack one-on-one.

Mac should be the igniter now. Wes a distant 2d choice.

gonzagafan62
01-23-2015, 05:06 AM
I hope we aren't down by 1 with 25 seconds to go in March Madness.

Yeah that would suck. But if it were less than ten seconds id be fine. Western Kentucky game (not a set play though) David Stockton In wcc tourney etc all worked out under 10

jazzdelmar
01-23-2015, 05:39 AM
For our mental health, maybe we should put a board moratorium on the end of half subject. Seems hopeless and totally inscrutable, much like figuring out why players who just scored 2 or 3 quick buckets are instantly subbed out.....

Zags11
01-23-2015, 05:50 AM
I have no faith for hand of half plays. I remember the dickau and stepp years and we seemed to constantly get buckets at end of halves.

Zagdawg
01-23-2015, 06:10 AM
This is the new "3 pt defense" topic-- gotta have something to post about after a 20+ point win since we can't post about not winning by 20+ points as everyone wants.

DixieZag
01-23-2015, 06:26 AM
This is the new "3 pt defense" topic-- gotta have something to post about after a 20+ point win since we can't post about not winning by 20+ points as everyone wants.

You mean people are incapable of doing both? This is a fan board and fans cannot discuss frustrations while also acknowledging a fantastic win, like in any other game any team plays? It's a weird pattern that has arguments on either side and that's the whole point of a board. And, there's no shortage of acknowledgments on the great win.

Zagdawg
01-23-2015, 07:13 AM
When our complaint thread is longer than our "post game thought" thread its a sign there is something more a bit wrong with our a few in our base than we would like to admit-- but that's just my opinion.

jazzdelmar
01-23-2015, 07:25 AM
You mean people are incapable of doing both? This is a fan board and fans cannot discuss frustrations while also acknowledging a fantastic win, like in any other game any team plays? It's a weird pattern that has arguments on either side and that's the whole point of a board. And, there's no shortage of acknowledgments on the great win.

Plus 1

WallaWallaZag
01-23-2015, 07:28 AM
When our complaint thread is longer than our "post game thought" thread its a sign there is something more a bit wrong with our a few in our base than we would like to admit-- but that's just my opinion.

well, we could always post our complaints in the "post game thought" thread if that would make you happy :roll:

77Zag
01-23-2015, 09:11 AM
Glad for this post -- we are clueless to close out the clock ---- this has been an issue for many years. C'mon Mark, get this right and it adds one more arrow to the quiver.

DixieZag
01-23-2015, 09:25 AM
You're missing the point.

Unlike most of these end of half deals, there was a 4 second differential between the game clock and the shot clock. Few couldn't avoid giving the ball to St. Mary's for the final shot. Therefore, I was surprised he didn't draw up a better play. It was a different situation tonight. It's also possible that Pangos wasn't aware of the difference between the game clock and shot clock.

If the shot clock is off, Few only cares about one thing on offense. He just wants to get to the half without the other team getting any chance to score. If Pangos were to throw up a shot from behind his back from 35 feet with the game clock expiring, that's mission accomplished. Whether it's right or wrong, I have come to believe that it's his genuine coaching philosophy when it comes to handling these situations.

I was far more perturbed by the crummy defense GU played in that final 4 seconds. They almost gave SMC momentum going into the half, which is something that Few really doesn't want.

Keeping in mind I am no coach, Few would get the same result if Pangos gave two huge fakes to drive and then just pulled up from the top of the key. I bet he'd make a ton of those b/c he always steps up. If he had a chance to end the half with a three sending the teams to the locker room, that would be huge. Worth a try IMHO.

Robzagnut
01-23-2015, 10:03 AM
A lot of the problems over the last 4 years is on Pangos. He needs to make a move with 7-8 seconds left on the clock, so he has time to dish to a wing if he gets covered up. With 3-4 seconds left he ALWAYS get swallowed up by the defense with no where to go.

My worst nightmare is GU being down 1 point with 15 seconds to go in the game with a trip to the Elite Eight on the line, and there's Pangos dribbling down the clock...

gonzagafan62
01-23-2015, 10:06 AM
I hope we aren't down by 1 with 25 seconds to go in March Madness.

A wise man once told me, that no matter what sport you play.... once you get into the playoffs, or in this case the tournament, "Your strengths become your weakness, and your weakness becomes your strength."

We are fine.

gonzagafan62
01-23-2015, 10:07 AM
A lot of the problems over the last 4 years is on Pangos. He needs to make a move with 7-8 seconds left on the clock, so he has time to dish to a wing if he gets covered up. With 3-4 seconds left he ALWAYS get swallowed up by the defense with no where to go.

My worst nightmare is GU being down 1 point with 15 seconds to go in the game with a trip to the Elite Eight on the line, and there's Pangos dribbling down the clock...

I didn't see him do that in the game @ Wazzou a couple years ago, granted we weren't dribbling the clock out, and it was a mad scramble, but it does fit into your timeline.

Bogozags
01-23-2015, 10:22 AM
Coach Few has been running the exact type of play since Pargo and maybe before...can't remember that far back but it would drive me crazy when he would have his PGs do that at the end of the game...someone is telling him that play works...not sure for who...He isn't going to change his philosophy at the end of the half/game...it must of worked for him a couple of times...I mean Morrison could do that but KP ???

Zagdawg
01-23-2015, 10:28 AM
Dickau used to be the master of the end of half play -- either hitting the step back three or taking it to the hoop-- or even finding the open man.

jazzdelmar
01-23-2015, 10:35 AM
Dickau used to be the master of the end of half play -- either hitting the step back three or taking it to the hoop-- or even finding the open man.


Sigh!

seacatfan
01-23-2015, 12:51 PM
no kidding...zags were in some similar situations in the zona game and never got off a good shot. hey, i'm fine if few wants to make sure he gets the last shot, but how about giving it to someone like wesley who can actually attack one-on-one.

Wesley hasn't been playing very well offensively for the most part since WCC play began. I don't think I'd put the ball in his hands with the game on the line at this point. Not to mention if he gets fouled he's shown an unfortunate tendency to brick FT's late in games several times.

jazzdelmar
01-23-2015, 01:56 PM
Wesley hasn't been playing very well offensively for the most part since WCC play began. I don't think I'd put the ball in his hands with the game on the line at this point. Not to mention if he gets fouled he's shown an unfortunate tendency to brick FT's late in games several times.

Exactly. My money is on Mac w KP his sidekick. Three bigs to board. Not Nunez.

zag buddy
01-23-2015, 03:44 PM
My choice is Wiljer, actually anyone than Pangos

ZagaZags
01-24-2015, 05:10 PM
Pffffffft. GU is bound to make one soon.

bartruff1
01-24-2015, 06:18 PM
yuk