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View Full Version : The 3 "blind" refs.....look closer



ezcure17
11-27-2014, 07:12 AM
I just looked up these 3 referees...

Jeff Clark....former player at ST JOES!!! You don't think he knows about the a** kicking we just gave his "former team last week????

Ed Corbett...Big east ref most notably known for "missing?? calls in big games (mostly FOR Syracuse??? And big east games!!

And Mike Nance...ref from the SEC, hhmmmmm...ALSO one of the refs who screwed us back in 2008 at the battle in seattle against Tennessee...guess where he is from. Hint...TN, an SEC ref...right. Lots of BS calls in that game, but a quick whistle on us

Just was curious about these 3

Zagsker
11-27-2014, 07:27 AM
I just looked up these 3 referees...

Jeff Clark....former player at ST JOES!!! You don't think he knows about the a** kicking we just gave his "former team last week????

Ed Corbett...Big east ref most notably known for "missing?? calls in big games (mostly FOR Syracuse??? And big east games!!

And Mike Nance...ref from the SEC, hhmmmmm...ALSO one of the refs who screwed us back in 2008 at the battle in seattle against Tennessee...guess where he is from. Hint...TN, an SEC ref...right. Lots of BS calls in that game, but a quick whistle on us

Just was curious about these 3

Good lord...refs are not out to choose sides in games

#BlackHelicoptersCirclingOverYouWhileYouMakeTinFoi lHat

LongIslandZagFan
11-27-2014, 07:34 AM
Good lord...refs are not out to choose sides in games

#BlackHelicoptersCirclingOverYouWhileYouMakeTinFoi lHat

I was at the game. They were so bad that you start to question whether they had money on the game. Kevin getting called for a block when on the jumbotron you see him planted in place a good 2-3 steps before the charge... Our bigs got called for phantom fouls all night while UGA seemed impervious to the whistle at the same time. Look... If refs want to go ticky-tacky like they were with out bigs last night but they called it the same way with UGA... I would have been OK with it. All you need to know about these refs is the lack of a flagrant foul when the UGA player did this:

http://www.cardboardcarnage.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/ad969-karate-kid-o.gif

bartruff1
11-27-2014, 07:34 AM
Good lord...refs are not out to choose sides in games

#BlackHelicoptersCirclingOverYouWhileYouMakeTinFoi lHat

I was taught to never ever blame the officials....Knight is no fan of refs but he mentioned several times that he thought one of them ( Corbett?) was a good as they come. A most excellent official.... there are bad calls in sports and in life...expect them...play through them...

If I ever think the officials are picking sides , I won't waste my time watching or playing sports.

Mr Vulture
11-27-2014, 07:45 AM
I didn't feel like they favored one side or the other but I thought they were poor overall. Something like 54 fouls called in the game and likely a third were just tricky tack garbage.

Zagsker
11-27-2014, 07:48 AM
I was at the game. They were so bad that you start to question whether they had money on the game. Kevin getting called for a block when on the jumbotron you see him planted in place a good 2-3 steps before the charge... Our bigs got called for phantom fouls all night while UGA seemed impervious to the whistle at the same time. Look... If refs want to go ticky-tacky like they were with out bigs last night but they called it the same way with UGA... I would have been OK with it. All you need to know about these refs is the lack of a flagrant foul when the UGA player did this:

http://www.cardboardcarnage.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/ad969-karate-kid-o.gif

Lol...love it

The call against Pangos was bad, he was easily there in time and completely set...with that being said, being a ref is an extremely difficult task, spectators watch the ball, refs have to watch their area, multiple people and look for a wide variety of potential infractions

TexasZagFan
11-27-2014, 07:49 AM
Good lord...refs are not out to choose sides in games

#BlackHelicoptersCirclingOverYouWhileYouMakeTinFoi lHat

LOL, I have to agree with you. While living in El Paso, I made a casual acquaintance of a gentleman who was a ref at many games involving UTEP. I was introduced to him in the bar at the Marriott in Albuquerque, where we stayed when the Miners played UNM. As I shook his hand, I said (with a smile on my face), you're the guy who blew the call that decided the San Diego State/UTEP game! Then we had a chance to discuss a lot of basketball, and the life of a referee.

For the next few years, we'd get together at the same place. A couple of times, Gary Colson (then coach at UNM) joined in the conversation, and I learned a lot from the way he comported himself, particularly after a couple of last second defeats to UTEP, including the famous "cup throwing" incident.

The referee that made the crucial call was Jimmy Clark, who would go on to the NBA. He was the kind of referee you wanted to see on the road, and you hated to see when you were the home team. He always called them like he saw them.

The year after that game, the other ref started our gathering with: you're a legend! I told Jimmy Clark about you, and he said "Wow!" lol

Damn, those were great years. Today, I realize I'm not in the same league as ezcure17. Of course, we didn't have the internet, youtube and google back in the mid-80s. lol

Here's a link to the "Paper Cup Game":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6B4ibpQoTY

mgadfly
11-27-2014, 08:01 AM
I was taught to never ever blame the officials.....

See Tim Donaghy for why questioning refs is a good idea.

I once was on a team where we received an apology letter from one ref who felt the other official had intentionally called a championship game against us. He was ashamed to have been part of the debacle and the rules were changed about having officials from your league call state championship games your in after that.

Question refs, it's the right thing to do to stop corruption. Just don't be jerk about it.

ZagHouse
11-27-2014, 09:09 AM
I didn't love the officiating, but we did go to the line over 30 times and were able to hold them at around 10 points because of the fouls called. Those that want someone's head for the Perkin's foul need to consider how fast that play happened. It was ugly and most likely a flagrant 1, but to think Gaines had time to think anything malicious while leaping out to contest a 3, is being a bit silly. As soon as he saw Perkin's take the baseline, all he probably mustered was an, "Oh, s@&#!" That, and Perkins dad said he seemed remorseful for the play.

bartruff1
11-27-2014, 09:32 AM
I didn't feel like they favored one side or the other but I thought they were poor overall. Something like 54 fouls called in the game and likely a third were just tricky tack garbage.

I think they were trying to keep control of the game...just a guess.... if I were king I would not even allow a play to be reviewed...just make the calls.. I doubt you get to this level if you are not ethical and skilled...just MHO..

jazzdelmar
11-27-2014, 09:35 AM
its too ez to dismiss gross incompetence for conspiracy......

DixieZag
11-27-2014, 09:43 AM
Lol...love it

The call against Pangos was bad, he was easily there in time and completely set...with that being said, being a ref is an extremely difficult task, spectators watch the ball, refs have to watch their area, multiple people and look for a wide variety of potential infractions

Yes, it is difficult. But, it should be as difficult both ways. You watch that game and ask yourself how is it - given the styles of play, how were they in the bonus before 11:00 in each half and very quickly into the double bonus? They were about 3 - 4 minutes ahead of us in that.

Plus, it is difficult, but when you go to the monitor and see that, I am at a complete loss as to explain what they are seeing - if they cannot see that it is at least a flagrant, likely the flagrant 2 - then we move into the area regarding suspensions. Because, even if we throw out conspiratorial thoughts, a big part of their job is to protect the players. The sports pages are littered with articles about the big push to protect players from concussions. If that move is done in the NFL it's a suspension. If it is done accidentally by elbow it is an automatic flagrant. There is no legitimate argument as to how that is not a flagrant. And, once one moves from no legitimate argument, it opens the door to a host of other concerns.

Plus, those early two against Sabonis.......

DixieZag
11-27-2014, 09:43 AM
its too ez to dismiss gross incompetence for conspiracy......

And they most certainly are not mutually exclusive.....:)

WILLYMCG
11-27-2014, 10:48 AM
Good lord...refs are not out to choose sides in games

#BlackHelicoptersCirclingOverYouWhileYouMakeTinFoi lHat

I Was also at the game. I was characterized, IMHO, by the new "charge call?" dilemma. Whether a ref or their coach decided the "shoulder in the gut" was the way to offset our big's advantage-it sure worked tonight on selected Zags. Expect we will see more of this.
Lots of St J fans will make this seem like a home game for them.

zagamatic
11-27-2014, 10:52 AM
The funny thing about conspiracy theories is that sometimes they're right.

FroZAG
11-27-2014, 11:01 AM
Good lord...refs are not out to choose sides in games

#BlackHelicoptersCirclingOverYouWhileYouMakeTinFoi lHat

Ya..... and Santa Clause is real because I see him in the mall every year.

Marcus
11-27-2014, 11:03 AM
its too ez to dismiss gross incompetence for conspiracy......

I agree Jazz, it was more incompetence than conspiracy. Some refs are just bad, and they let in game stuff affect them personally. They took the scolding from Georgia coach, gave him a T, then proceeded to want to win him back by calling everything he was complaining about to them.

dan71w
11-27-2014, 11:33 AM
each person in life must be held accountable for our actions. the ref's like wise need to be held accountable for allowing the amount of "physicality" in a NON-contact sport. I just do not understand the "don't blame the ref's", attitude. those officials are given a job, to call the game by the rules, with emphasis on safety and fairness. what i saw happening throughout the game, ticky tack fouls on our bigs to get them out of the game fast and early, i saw their players out of control numerous times barrel into our guys and WE get the whistle? go back and watch the game and look for "fairness" and safety calls. we where punished throughout the game for just being on the damn floor. Georgia was out of control, slap happy and deliberately barreling into our guys. It was so bad our team got paranoid to even try to defend because it was an automatic whistle period!
it was not a fairly called game, and it was not a game about the safety of our players, the ref's made sure of that!!
the only reason the stat sheet shows equal shots is because the last few minutes they racked up a bunch of fouls trying even harder to slow the game down. otherwise we would have ended the game with at least 10 more fouls than they had. those ref's need to be held accountable for calling a game with a disregard to safety and fairness. at some point we the fans need to have a voice, and a power to ensure proper officiating. If I was Perkins family, i would level a law suite against the NCAA for allowing incompetent officiating to jeopardize and thus injure there son. that was plain and simple incompetence last night, and it resulted in a serious injury!
If you drink and drive,,,,,you are at fault! if the cop, lets you off with a warning for drinking and driving, and you proceed to go home, and kill someone, BOTH you and the cop are at fault, and need to be held accountable, and the cop should further be held to the higher standard because HIS job is to enforce the rules.

Zagsker
11-27-2014, 11:52 AM
...If I was Perkins family, i would level a law suite against the NCAA for allowing incompetent officiating to jeopardize and thus injure there son...


LOL!!!!...remind me not to make you a cup of coffee or invite you over for sushi

dan71w
11-27-2014, 12:03 PM
LOL!!!!...remind me not to make you a cup of coffee or invite you over for sushi
meaning?

SteelCityZag
11-27-2014, 12:06 PM
Refs have two primary jobs: 1) to call games with consistency for teams, and 2) to not let games get out of control with rough play so that a player gets injured. The fact that this crew did a debatable job at 1) but failed miserably at 2) is not really a theory to anyone who watched the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DixieZag
11-27-2014, 12:06 PM
The funny thing about conspiracy theories is that sometimes they're right.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't watching you. :)

willandi
11-27-2014, 12:07 PM
meaning?

Might get sushi in your coffee and have to sue! Fish coffee...yuk!

I was thinking of a cheer. "Rah, Rah, Ree! Kick 'em in the knee! Rah, Rah, Raz. Kick 'em in the face!"

Maybe the refs were "...just so confused!" (Apologies to the fans of Kotter)

Ekrub
11-27-2014, 12:49 PM
meaning?

You might get burned or get food poisoning and Sue?

dan71w
11-27-2014, 01:20 PM
I keep thinking that Josh's injury could have been avoided had the incompetent ref's actually did there job. they allowed the Georgia players far to much leeway in "physicality" and allowed them to continually barrel into our boys with NO repercussions.

why where the Georgia players allowed to play out of control? why where they continually allowed to barrel into us, out of control yet we where the ones that received the whistles?
its not about sushi or coffee!
those ref's allowed the game to get out of hand, thus a severe injury occurred. those ref's need to be investigated, and reprimanded. the whole game needs to be investigated for the crap that was allowed to go on.
if you are at work, and you failed to ensure that the equipment your employees use is not safe, it is you who are responsible. If someone gets hurt while using that equipment then you are also now accountable and liable for that injury.
the officials are responsible for a fair and, safe game environment, they failed in that responsibility, and an injury happened, now they are liable, and need to be held accountable. but we all know that the NCAA will not hold them responsible or accountable, thus it is in the right of the parents to "sue" to achieve that accountability.

sittingon50
11-27-2014, 01:43 PM
You guys are all just jealous 'cause the voices only speak to me!

gobroncsgozags
11-27-2014, 04:14 PM
I don't think the refs purposefully favored anyone as much as they were simply incompetent.

However, I truly believe bad refs most often favor the worse team. Georgia got away with playing unskilled basketball. They were continually bailed out on drives to the hoop that had little chance of scoring. In games like this, it makes little difference that the foul count is even. Gonzaga skillfully moved the ball, making good passes into the post, and getting a foul down low. That is a huge difference from the fouls Georgia was getting.

maynard g krebs
11-27-2014, 05:56 PM
why where the Georgia players allowed to play out of control? why where they continually allowed to barrel into us, out of control yet we where the ones that received the whistles?


One can look at what happens, and despite the pitfalls of inductive reasoning, I believe it can often be used to arrive at logical conclusions.

One can also deride such thought with phrases like "tinfoil hats" and "black helicopters.

I call it "score management", and look at it as follows. NCAA revenue sports are big business, and most of the revenue comes from TV. People turn off blowout games, and this was a national tv game at the Garden. Less than 8 minutes in, the Zags were up 21-8 and it was looking almost like the St Joe's game, just a bit less extreme. At that point, two fouls had been called on the Zags, and if one subtracts 8 from 21, it should be apparent that the Zags had a 13 pt lead. Following so far, deriders?

That is when the whistle on the Zags fest started. TWENTY fouls in approx. the next 24 minutes. And to my eye, the Zags had good position on quite a few of those and were actually trying to avoid contact after a while. Tons of foul trouble v a team that really isn't very good offensively. So the subjective eye test meshes with the objective foul count. And by this time the Zags have been taken out of their game, afraid to defend normally.

Now, guess what? Eight minutes to go, Zags up 10, and the whistles stop. TWO fouls on the Zags in the last 8 minutes.

So, to recap: about one foul per 4 minutes in the opening and ending 8 minute segments; a foul about every 1.2 minutes in the stretch when the game was being kept artificially close imo. It's a long time since my college stats class, but I'd bet the chances of that being random are pretty close to nonexistent. The team doesn't play that differently from one minute to the next.

Refs weren't trying to make them lose, just to keep it "entertaining". Because they understand where their paycheck ultimately comes from, imho.

I've seen it a million times over the last couple decades. Not so much before that, i.e when it became mostly about big money for those involved.

Okay, "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" monkeys- have at it.

willandi
11-27-2014, 06:08 PM
Isn't that racketeering? If provable, practically all the higher-ups at the NCAA and the refs should be indicted for fixing, or attempting to fix, games.

maynard g krebs
11-27-2014, 06:17 PM
Isn't that racketeering? If provable, practically all the higher-ups at the NCAA and the refs should be indicted for fixing, or attempting to fix, games.

Not provable. Plausible deniability isn't that difficult. It's like when Don Corleone says "I don't want to see that guy no more". Of course he wasn't ordering a hit, he just meant not to bring him by the house for drinks.

willandi
11-27-2014, 06:23 PM
Not provable. Plausible deniability isn't that difficult. It's like when Don Corleone says "I don't want to see that guy no more". Of course he wasn't ordering a hit, he just meant not to bring him by the house for drinks.

Maybe some bright lights and sweat a confession out of last nights refs! Old timey cop work.

zaguarxj
11-28-2014, 09:30 AM
Obviously impossible to prove but I sure got the feeling that the game was headed for a 25+ point blowout without all the mystery whistles on key Zags.

bartruff1
11-28-2014, 10:49 AM
I don't...neither do I think the refs stage the game for ratings or any other reason....

Worthington
11-28-2014, 11:10 AM
Just watched the second half of the game. The reffing was fine for the most part. Blocking call on Pangos wasn't even close and there were maybe 1 or 2 ticky tack fouls that I disagreed with. And of course the Perkins injury should have been a flagrant 1 atleast, just a reckless play regardless of whether there was intent. Every foul on Bell I thought was fair. Georgia was just the more athletic, aggressive team in the second half and they earned a lot of those trips to the line. Mann is an excellent slasher. People calling Georgia a thuggish team are just out of line.

gonzagafan62
11-28-2014, 11:19 AM
Just watched the second half of the game. The reffing was fine for the most part. Blocking call on Pangos wasn't even close and there were maybe 1 or 2 ticky tack fouls that I disagreed with. And of course the Perkins injury should have been a flagrant 1 atleast, just a reckless play regardless of whether there was intent. Every foul on Bell I thought was fair. Georgia was just the more athletic, aggressive team in the second half and they earned a lot of those trips to the line. Mann is an excellent slasher.

I watched it again today this morning too. I have to respectfully disagree.

Aggressive? Maybe so. Athletic? No. When you just drive right for Sabonis, and Karnowski, that's not athleticism. That's just trying to win a battle of psyche and physicality, which really played in their favor. Its smart, but also bush league.

St. John's is pretty physical too, yet more athletic than Georgia was. Lets see how tonight plays out. I still think we are more of a finesse offensive team with Bell and Wesley being the janitors. And janitors I mean our best defenders and getting dirty. Will be fun to watch (I hope... gulp)

Go Zags!

UIZag
11-28-2014, 11:24 AM
Agreed Worthington. The more aggressive team usually draws more fouls. The block/charge will almost always be debatable and fans rarely accept their team was at fault. IMHO, if Gaines had been assessed a Flagrant foul of either level, this board is having very little to no discussion about officiating. The Zags went 3 games with very little challenge and it showed. They seemed unready for the speed of Georgia. The defensive rotations were late and help defense often was not reliable. When you get punched in the mouth you put your hands, defend yourself, and fight back. I suspect we'll see a team today much more willing to fight!

P.S. Let's remember we're all on the same side here. We all love the Zags so please, treat each other with respect even if you read a post and mutter, or scream, 'Effin moron!' :pray:

roxdoc
11-28-2014, 11:32 AM
Maybe it was just my imagination but toward the end of the game I thought I twice saw Pangos with the ball driving a bit into Mann who was called for the block both times. They were situations where in normal play Kevin really didn't need to do it. Two can play the game. Too bad we didn't start a little earlier on Mr. Mann.

BULLDOG#1
11-28-2014, 11:44 AM
completely agree with Worthington.

They missed the charge when Pangos was clearly set. The Perkins kick should have been a flagrant.
But for the most part I thought the refs were OK. The ticky tack fouls on Bonus were, in fact, fouls. If they're calling the game tight like that, then they just need to be consistent -- and Sabonis should learn to lay-off.

The Jonnies are going to drive right for the chest of any Zag big that hedges on the high pick and roll. Few knows this and should make adjustments.

FWIW: The ticky tac fouls might actually be better for a deeper team like the zags.

dan71w
11-28-2014, 11:51 AM
If it is a tactic to just barrel into each other to draw fouls, it takes away from the skill of the team. the idea of blatantly running into the defender to draw that foul is a thug tactic that gets rewarded far to often and had detracted from a game that is NON-contact. there has been so much talk about physical teams, and physicality, and "athleticism" that the type of ball we saw played was not basketball. if it is "ok" to charge the bigs and bounce off them as they did to us, then we should just re-name the game into rugby.

sage
11-28-2014, 12:03 PM
If it is a tactic to just barrel into each other to draw fouls, it takes away from the skill of the team. the idea of blatantly running into the defender to draw that foul is a thug tactic that gets rewarded far to often and had detracted from a game that is NON-contact. there has been so much talk about physical teams, and physicality, and "athleticism" that the type of ball we saw played was not basketball. if it is "ok" to charge the bigs and bounce off them as they did to us, then we should just re-name the game into rugby.


The object of the game is a "W" when it's over. This isn't a fly fishing purist who gloats over a worm fisherman. Both fish legally and catch fish. As long as what they do is "within the rules", someone will do it. Making up for lack of skill or just a choice of playing tactics by their coach to get th "W". There are thug teams and there are basketball teams, both will win games, legally..........

maynard g krebs
11-28-2014, 01:24 PM
Just watched the second half of the game. The reffing was fine for the most part. Blocking call on Pangos wasn't even close and there were maybe 1 or 2 ticky tack fouls that I disagreed with. And of course the Perkins injury should have been a flagrant 1 atleast, just a reckless play regardless of whether there was intent. Every foul on Bell I thought was fair. Georgia was just the more athletic, aggressive team in the second half and they earned a lot of those trips to the line. Mann is an excellent slasher. People calling Georgia a thuggish team are just out of line.

Then please to explain why they weren't aggressive in the first 8 minutes or the last 8 minutes. It's clear the game was called differently at different times. I just went to the data to confirm what the eyeball test told me, and the data confirmed it clearly.

Worthington
11-28-2014, 01:52 PM
Then please to explain why they weren't aggressive in the first 8 minutes or the last 8 minutes. It's clear the game was called differently at different times. I just went to the data to confirm what the eyeball test told me, and the data confirmed it clearly.

I'm not sure (I watched the 1st half live and the 2nd half the next day). All I can say is that most of the fouls that were called, to me, seemed like legitimate calls. Georgia outworked us in the second half. They were the aggressors, their bigs out-rebounded ours and got themselves to the line with their physicality. Mann was quick and GBJ struggled to stay in front of him. I can't really speak to the officiating from a consistency stand point, but I'm just saying that the calls didn't seem lopsided and there didn't appear to be any favoritism in my view.

If you're strong enough and quick enough to barrel through a defender and get to the rim (obviously when no offensive foul is being committed), then I see no problem with using that advantage. Our defensive intensity was lacking in the second half, I hope the guys learn a lot from watching the tape cause St. Johns will be a similar test.

maynard g krebs
11-28-2014, 01:56 PM
As I said in another thread, it looked to me like the Zags had to back off from normal defense due to being called for a foul every time a Georgia player barreled into them. Looked to me like a dozen bad calls, but we can disagree. The data I cited is what it is, and certainly one can interpet it as one chooses.

bballbeachbum
11-28-2014, 03:09 PM
See Tim Donaghy for why questioning refs is a good idea.

I once was on a team where we received an apology letter from one ref who felt the other official had intentionally called a championship game against us. He was ashamed to have been part of the debacle and the rules were changed about having officials from your league call state championship games your in after that.

Question refs, it's the right thing to do to stop corruption. Just don't be jerk about it.

cheers to all of that

and even the ethical, and those who try their best with sincerity, are still just human with whatever bias they enter the floor with

always 3 teams out there