PDA

View Full Version : Best WCC players since 2000



Section 116
06-01-2014, 08:13 PM
One man's (Max Graves-Kelly's kid?) list, good conversation starter:

http://westcoastconvo.com/2014/06/01/best-wcc-players-since-2000/

Norcalzag
06-01-2014, 08:20 PM
I'd shuffle the order but I have no problems with the personnel in this guy's top 10. Dan Dickau and Kelly Olynek were both AP first team All-Americans and certainly deserve to be ranked higher than 7 and 6, respectively.

VinnyZag
06-01-2014, 08:48 PM
He left off Patty Mills. Also, to me, Elias Harris and Kevin Pangos are both more deserving than Raivio.

maynard g krebs
06-01-2014, 09:11 PM
Brandon Armstrong of Pepperdine belongs ahead of some players on the list as well. Finished in 01.

exclusivelee
06-01-2014, 09:46 PM
Max Graves-Kelly's kid?

True

jazzdelmar
06-02-2014, 04:15 AM
Only three were national phenomena, Ammo, KO and DD, and they are 1-3 in any list. Patty Mills easily on list. Ireland pretty close to top as well. Delly, too. DR might not make GU top ten.

BULLDOG#1
06-02-2014, 06:58 AM
Bouldin and Harris should be on this list.

sittingon50
06-02-2014, 07:00 AM
"There you go again, Jazz."

D Rav rides the pine Stepp's Sr. yr & then runs the show for 3. Along the way dealing with the distractions of Josh & Adam. Kept his head down & his mouth shut.

D Rav was (co-) conference POY & league tourney MVP. IMHO probably the most under-rated Zag.

He at least belongs in the conversation.

ZagsGoZags
06-02-2014, 07:27 AM
This depends partly on whether we rank them according to college-based rankings of All-Americans, as if there was no such thing as an NBA.
If a person chose to use the NBA based criteria, how high they were drafted, or how well they fared in the NBA, would produce two more separate lists.

DixieZag
06-02-2014, 07:38 AM
All I know is Ireland should be way ahead of Bryant.

No one will ever know what Ireland would have done with a solid team around him.

The list must somehow incorporate the number of years a player played very high caliber ball (which is legitimate) b/c if we simply look at "Best Players" - Olynick has to be number 2 given the junior year he had and how far he took the team.

Ekrub
06-02-2014, 07:41 AM
"There you go again, Jazz."

D Rav rides the pine Stepp's Sr. yr & then runs the show for 3. Along the way dealing with the distractions of Josh & Adam. Kept his head down & his mouth shut.

D Rav was (co-) conference POY & league tourney MVP. IMHO probably the most under-rated Zag.

He at least belongs in the conversation.

We've had a ton of good players. Saying Ravio might not make te GU top 10 isn't some huge insult.

exclusivelee
06-02-2014, 08:01 AM
The list must somehow incorporate the number of years a player played very high caliber ball (which is legitimate) b/c if we simply look at "Best Players" - Olynick has to be number 2 given the junior year he had and how far he took the team.

I'd rank Olynyk's junior year as 3rd best behind Ammo's junior year and Dickau's senior year

but I'd rank Elias ahead of Kelly of best Zag college careers since 2000. Kelly may have had 1 stellar season, but Elias had a strong last season too, and they came together as freshmen in 2009. Elias started just about every game in his Zag career while Kelly struggled to become a strong contributor until he decided to redshirt.

Calvary should be ranked ahead of each of them (Elias & Kelly) though, and surprised neither him nor Batista received any mention

mgadfly
06-02-2014, 08:24 AM
I'd rank Olynyk's junior year as 3rd best behind Ammo's junior year and Dickau's senior year

but I'd rank Elias ahead of Kelly of best Zag college careers since 2000. Kelly may have had 1 stellar season, but Elias had a strong last season too, and they came together as freshmen in 2009. Elias started just about every game in his Zag career while Kelly struggled to become a strong contributor until he decided to redshirt.

Calvary should be ranked ahead of each of them (Elias & Kelly) though, and surprised neither him nor Batista received any mention

I think the time period (2000 +) eliminated a couple of Calvary's seasons.

Batista was a transfer and only had two seasons. I know they put Dickau on the list as a transfer, but I think he was the exception based on All-American status.

gonzagafan62
06-02-2014, 10:39 AM
I think the time period (2000 +) eliminated a couple of Calvary's seasons.

Batista was a transfer and only had two seasons. I know they put Dickau on the list as a transfer, but I think he was the exception based on All-American status.

What about Dior Lowhorn? Or Elias Harris? Tyler Haws and Diamond Simpson? There is a lot of REALLY GREAT WCC players out there.

LongIslandZagFan
06-02-2014, 11:11 AM
Really... How the F is Samhan that high on the list? Last I checked he isn't playing in the association and Robert is. Even if you wanted to put him in that list based on his college career.... I STILL have issues. Bryant was twice the center he was... and how can he be ahead Dickau? Mills a no show?Messed up list... period.

gonzagafan62
06-02-2014, 11:13 AM
Really... How the F is Samhan that high on the list? Last I checked he isn't playing in the association and Robert is. Even if you wanted to put him in that list based on his college career.... I STILL have issues. Bryant was twice the center he was... and how can he be ahead Dickau? Mills a no show?Messed up list... period.

Agreed with every sentiment possible. This is a terrible list. EDIT: I would put Lowhorn up there higher than Samhan too.

jazzdelmar
06-02-2014, 11:27 AM
"There you go again, Jazz."

D Rav rides the pine Stepp's Sr. yr & then runs the show for 3. Along the way dealing with the distractions of Josh & Adam. Kept his head down & his mouth shut.

D Rav was (co-) conference POY & league tourney MVP. IMHO probably the most under-rated Zag.

He at least belongs in the conversation.


Fitty, JMHO, but GU has easily had ten better than DR over that period. He wouldn't even be among top five guards. And I would take exception to your felicitous description of his attitude on the court. He kept his head down and for many reasons. Enough said. One of the most overrated players, again, IMHO

sittingon50
06-02-2014, 12:24 PM
Guess we'll agree to disagree, my friend. I'm looking at this past years Media Guide, so does not include stats compiled from the most recent campaign.
Since 2000 DRav is:
6th in scoring
2nd in 3pt FGM & FGA
1st in FT %
4th in Assists

Those are some strong #'s IMO. Plus, a conference POY. And ekrub, wasn't trying to intimate that it was an insult. Just feel his body of work puts him in the conversation.

Zagdawg
06-02-2014, 12:48 PM
Agree about Raivio being a solid guard at GU---the kid had ice in his veins from the FT line-- good to have the ball in his hands at the end of the shot clock/games.

Per Wiki---"He finished his collegiate career as the second all-time career free throw shooting percentage leader in NCAA Division I history (.927)."

mgadfly
06-02-2014, 12:53 PM
What about Dior Lowhorn? Or Elias Harris? Tyler Haws and Diamond Simpson? There is a lot of REALLY GREAT WCC players out there.

There are a lot of great WCC players. I wasn't defending the list (which isn't mine), but was commenting on why two of our better players probably weren't on it.

gonzagafan62
06-02-2014, 01:07 PM
There are a lot of great WCC players. I wasn't defending the list (which isn't mine), but was commenting on why two of our better players probably weren't on it.

Yeah, I didn't mean to direct that towards you.

jazzdelmar
06-02-2014, 01:18 PM
Guess we'll agree to disagree, my friend. I'm looking at this past years Media Guide, so does not include stats compiled from the most recent campaign.
Since 2000 DRav is:
6th in scoring
2nd in 3pt FGM & FGA
1st in FT %
4th in Assists

Those are some strong #'s IMO. Plus, a conference POY. And ekrub, wasn't trying to intimate that it was an insult. Just feel his body of work puts him in the conversation.


Matt S, DD, Blake, Bouldin, Gray Pargo, KP.....who does DR displace? You don't even want to go to bigs.

mgadfly
06-02-2014, 01:20 PM
Really... How the F is Samhan that high on the list? Last I checked he isn't playing in the association and Robert is. Even if you wanted to put him in that list based on his college career.... I STILL have issues. Bryant was twice the center he was... and how can he be ahead Dickau? Mills a no show?Messed up list... period.

I HATE Samhan, but he was absolutely dominating in the WCC. I wouldn't find any list leaving him off credible at all. He's a turd, but one that can really play basketball.

Samahan: 1848 points, 1107 rebounds, 142 assists, 50 steals, 257 blocks, 2 of the top 3 single seasons with the highest win-shares since 1997-98.
Bryant: 1667 points, 1152 rebounds, 87 assists, 52 steals, 246 blocks, the other guy with a top 3 win-share season, but his second best season is #22.
Simpson: 1603 points, 1130 rebounds, 98 assists, 174 steals, 239 blocks, 2 top 10 single season win-share seasons.
Harris: 1857 points, 979 rebounds, 177 assists, 123 steals, 72 blocks, best season was 16th in single-season win-shares.
Turiaf: 1723 points, 859 rebounds, 130 assists, 61 steals, 179 blocks, #37 best w/s season.
Calvary: 1509 points, 757 rebounds, 133 assists, 92 steals, 207 blocks, 2 top 20 best single season win-shares plus #31.
Violette: 1342 points, 880 rebounds, 117 assists, 101 steals, 85 blocks, 2 top 50 best single season w/s seasons (#47 and #50).
Sacre: 1270 points, 679 rebounds, 91 assists, 70 steals, 186 blocks, 0 top 50 w/s seasons.
Olynyk: 903 points, 461 rebounds, 107 assists, 52 steals, 46 blocks, 1 top 10 w/s season (#7).

Not only should Samhan be on the list, but based on career stats and single season highs he should be in consideration with Delavedova and Morrison for the #1 spot.

seacatfan
06-02-2014, 01:24 PM
Not to take anything away from him, but Olynk is on this list solely because of his RS Jr. year. If one great year got him included, why wouldn't Batista's great Sr. year do the same for him?

Agree Samhan is too high and it's a head scratcher that Mills was not included. Simpson was also a good player for the Gaels but I haven't seen anyone mention Mickey McConnell. I know I wasn't sad to see him go when his eligibility was used up. Maybe he was too up and down in his career but Kevin Foster from Santa Clara was pretty darn good.

gonzagafan62
06-02-2014, 01:27 PM
Not to take anything away from him, but Olynk is on this list solely because of his RS Jr. year. If one great year got him included, why wouldn't Batista's great Sr. year do the same for him?

Agree Samhan is too high and it's a head scratcher that Mills was not included. Simpson was also a good player for the Gaels but I haven't seen anyone mention Mickey McConnell. I know I wasn't sad to see him go when his eligibility was used up. Maybe he was too up and down in his career but Kevin Foster from Santa Clara was pretty darn good.

I honestly forgot about McConnell. Seemed like McConnell always made the right pass, and hit the bigger shots in clutch situations. Idk if he would be on my not included list, but he was a damn good player. Mills definitely needs to be put somewhere on this list too. I agree.

maynard g krebs
06-02-2014, 01:30 PM
I HATE Samhan, but he was absolutely dominating in the WCC. I wouldn't find any list leaving him off credible at all. He's a turd, but one that can really play basketball.

Samahan: 1848 points, 1107 rebounds, 142 assists, 50 steals, 257 blocks, 2 of the top 3 single seasons with the highest win-shares since 1997-98.
Bryant: 1667 points, 1152 rebounds, 87 assists, 52 steals, 246 blocks, the other guy with a top 3 win-share season, but his second best season is #22.
Simpson: 1603 points, 1130 rebounds, 98 assists, 174 steals, 239 blocks, 2 top 10 single season win-share seasons.
Harris: 1857 points, 979 rebounds, 177 assists, 123 steals, 72 blocks, best season was 16th in single-season win-shares.
Turiaf: 1723 points, 859 rebounds, 130 assists, 61 steals, 179 blocks, #37 best w/s season.
Calvary: 1509 points, 757 rebounds, 133 assists, 92 steals, 207 blocks, 2 top 20 best single season win-shares plus #31.
Violette: 1342 points, 880 rebounds, 117 assists, 101 steals, 85 blocks, 2 top 50 best single season w/s seasons (#47 and #50).
Sacre: 1270 points, 679 rebounds, 91 assists, 70 steals, 186 blocks, 0 top 50 w/s seasons.
Olynyk: 903 points, 461 rebounds, 107 assists, 52 steals, 46 blocks, 1 top 10 w/s season (#7).

Not only should Samhan be on the list, but based on career stats and single season highs he should be in consideration with Delavedova and Morrison for the #1 spot.

Agree, except for the last sentence maybe. Huge games in the NCAA's as well in getting them to their only round of 16.

We're talking college bb; he didn't have an NBA body type so that's irrelevant.

mgadfly
06-02-2014, 01:34 PM
Not to take anything away from him, but Olynk is on this list solely because of his RS Jr. year. If one great year got him included, why wouldn't Batista's great Sr. year do the same for him?

Agree Samhan is too high and it's a head scratcher that Mills was not included. Simpson was also a good player for the Gaels but I haven't seen anyone mention Mickey McConnell. I know I wasn't sad to see him go when his eligibility was used up. Maybe he was too up and down in his career but Kevin Foster from Santa Clara was pretty darn good.

I suppose it was the media hype of the #1 ranked team, the best player on the #1 ranked team, the higher draft pick and decent showing in the NBA, because they both had good seasons, but Batista's was arguably the better one:

Batista: 636 points, 310 rebounds, 46 assists, 30 steals, 28 blocks, 19.3 points, 9.4 rebounds (#10 season in single-season win/shares)
Olynyk: 571 points, 235 rebounds, 55 assists, 22 steals, 36 blocks, 17.8 points, 7.3 rebounds (#7 season in single-season win/shares)

Foster is a tough call for me because his statistics were not achieved in an efficient manner. He's the leading scorer, but he wasn't a great assist, steal, or rebounding player. He only once had an Offensive Efficiency rating above 110 and his senior season had a rating below 100.

mgadfly
06-02-2014, 01:49 PM
I wouldn't put Mills on the list if we are talking about what they did in college rather than what they did afterwards. At least Olynyk has a single top ten type season. Mills had two awesome seasons for a freshman/sophomore and I'm sure if he had played four seasons he would have had numbers similar to some of the guys I'd put in front of him.

Dickau, Stepp, Santangelo, Dellavedova, and McConnell all had better single seasons during their careers than Mills. They also had significantly better career numbers. Pargo wasn't the scorer that Mills was, but he bested him in all the other statistical categories. Basically, off the top of my head I'd have him no better than the 6th best guard since 1997. So even taking Santangelo off there that puts him (at best) fifth in my mind for point guards.

Section 116
06-02-2014, 02:20 PM
Well, it did start a conversation!

DixieZag
06-02-2014, 02:34 PM
Well, it did start a conversation!

Sure did.

I don't know who I'd replace (though I mentioned Bryant) and I won't pretend to know as much BB as some around here, but I always thought that Ireland had so much talent and worked so hard but was just dragged down, mentally and physically, by the lack of other options on those teams. I bet if you put Ireland on the SMC teams throughout the decade, he explodes.

gonzagafan62
06-03-2014, 05:56 AM
Sure did.

I don't know who I'd replace (though I mentioned Bryant) and I won't pretend to know as much BB as some around here, but I always thought that Ireland had so much talent and worked so hard but was just dragged down, mentally and physically, by the lack of other options on those teams. I bet if you put Ireland on the SMC teams throughout the decade, he explodes.

I agree with the Ireland sentiment. Put him with Waldow, Bol Levesque, and Delly instead, and you are looking at a very good team. One thing I do not agree with is possibly taking out Bryant. Bryant was just a monster. So was Lowhorn from USF. Both really created some great days at both schools. This is when all the little schools were going after the big inside men thinking that would help against the Batistas, Turiafs, Heytvelts (Sp?), and the Dayes. Well While they could contain them, they still couldn't really stop any of them. Then they got this great idea to get guards instead. Now you see guys like Doolin (who left of course), Ireland, Brownridge, Sharp, Johnny Dee, and the Pepperdine guys. They all have played key factors in upsetting or coming close to beating Gonzaga. And right now, that's what the teams want, is to just beat us at least once.

gonstu
06-03-2014, 10:52 AM
I don't say this often but I'm with jazz on this one. I'm not saying D-Rav isn't good, but there's tons of good zag players not in the zag top 10 over the last 14 years. My first reaction was surprise when I saw him to open up the list. Zags I'd easily pick before D-Rav (in terms of jazz's point that he isn't in the zag top 10).

santangelo, dickau, stepp, bouldin, pargo, pangos, Morrison, turiaf, olynyk, harris, calvary, batista

jazzdelmar
06-03-2014, 01:42 PM
I don't say this often but I'm with jazz on this one. I'm not saying D-Rav isn't good, but there's tons of good zag players not in the zag top 10 over the last 14 years. My first reaction was surprise when I saw him to open up the list. Zags I'd easily pick before D-Rav (in terms of jazz's point that he isn't in the zag top 10).

santangelo, dickau, stepp, bouldin, pargo, pangos, Morrison, turiaf, olynyk, harris, calvary, batista

Sacre, Daye, Gray, Frahm, et al. Maybe he's not even top 15.