1967 Gonzaga vs. 2007 Gonzaga: LAST PLAY IN GAME

[gonzagafan62]

Welcome to the very last play-in game of this 20 team Bing Crosby Invitational Tournament bracket. Last week Frank Burgess could not fight off the tough nosed squad of last season, as the 2013-14 Gonzaga squad knocked off one of the best players and teams from the 60s.

Today we have another old school Nu Skool matchup with Gary Lechman's Zags will face the shrooms team with Derek Raivio.

Who will come out on top in this one? And will the shrooms hurt the newer Zags, or will the win against North Carolina be what fans remember? Next week gets into more grave details as we start separating the pretenders from the contenders. Remember to vote on the polls! All conversation is welcome!


1967 Gonzaga Roster (Back to Back Big Sky Conference Champions):

Gary Lechman
Paz Rocha
Larry Brown
Chuck Thomas
Jed Steele
Bob Butler
John Dougherty
Mike McGinley
Dennis Bly
Tony Fore
Darryl Gellert
Chuck Silvernail
Pat Clark

2006-07 Gonzaga:

Pierre-Marie Altidor Cespedes JR G 6-1 3.2 Pts, 1.6 Reb, 1.2 Ast
Matt Bouldin FR G 6-5 8.9 Pts, 3.6 Reb, 3.1 Ast
David Burgess SO F 6-10 1.0 Pts, 1.3 Reb, 0.2 Ast
Micah Downs SO G 6-8 8.1 Pts, 3.7 Reb, 0.9 Ast
Will Foster FR C 7-5 0.7 Pts, 1.2 Reb, 0.0 Ast
Josh Heytvelt SO F 6-11 15.5 Pts, 7.7 Reb, 0.4 Ast
Abdullahi Kuso JR F 6-9 4.9 Pts, 4.6 Reb, 0.3 Ast
Sean Mallon SR F 6-9 8.0 Pts, 4.2 Reb, 0.8 Ast
Jordan Mast FR G 6-2 0.4 Pts, 0.5 Reb, 0.1 Ast
Jeremy Pargo SO G 6-2 12.1 Pts, 4.3 Reb, 4.6 Ast
David Pendergraft JR G 6-6 7.3 Pts, 4.4 Reb, 0.9 Ast
Derek Raivio SR G 6-1 18.0 Pts, 3.1 Reb, 2.6 Ast
Andrew Sorenson SO G 6-2 0.4 Pts, 0.2 Reb, 0.1 Ast

[gonzagafan62]

Who ya got?

[gonzagafan62]

Bracket updated

[Reborn]

I was a Freshman at GU in 1967 and saw every game. This was a GREAT team who finished in the top 20 in the AP poll. This was, most likely the first GREAT Gonzaga team. I doubt if they will win this game against the '07 team here on the internet because most who vote do not know how good that team was. Gary Lechman was unstoppable in the low post, and reminds me of JP Bautista, but a little shorter. He had great hands, knew how to use his big butt and would score almost every time he got the ball in the low post. Larry Brown was solid and reminds me of a better version of David Pendergraft. Chuck Thomas was a great rebounder and crafty on this inside. And Paz Rocha was a great point guard. He could fly, knew how to lead a fast break and he could score. He was pretty short, standing at 5' 9 or 10 but he was quick and tough to guard. John Doughtery and Mike McGinley were both very good off the bench and both could shoot from the outside.

This team had GREAT team chemistry, AND if you looked at them on paper (which most of you will probably do) they don't look as good as the '07 team maybe. But if you saw them on the court you would see why they were. They had the IT (team cohesiveness) factor.

Now let's talk about the '07 team. This was NOT one of the better Zag teams, and especially without Josh Heytvelt. Heytvelt was playing when the Zags beat North Carolina and played the game of his life. Heytvelt, as we all know, was not playing at the end of the season. Yes, Raivio put the Zags on his back after Josh was kicked off the team and they won the conference. But as we remember, it was almost a miracle that they did because one or two teams who were actually ahead of the Zags in conference going into the last weekend or two and they lost (one or two games). Sorry my memory is foggy. But I do remember in took a major miracle to win the conference. The '07 team kind of reminds me of the '13'14 Zags in the since that it took a miracle for the Zags to win the conference this past year too. Sam Dower's season this year kind of reminds me of Raivio's his senior year.

The '67 Bulldog team (they were not the Zags back then) was most likely the first team who had what we later identified as that Zag thing. The '07 team had it also, thanks to Raivio, but to me the Zag thing was stronger in '67. That team was very very tough to beat, and they finished in the top 20 in the AP polls. Back then only 16 NCAA teams were able to go to the NCAA tournament (or was it still just 4) and the UCLA Bruins were probably the better team coming out of the West. The Bulldogs beat a very good WSU team in Kennedy and I will never forget that game. It was awesome. Those WSU teams back then, coached by Marv Harshman, were very good. Harshman coached at WSU before going to UW.

I hope some of you who read my post will vote for the '67 team because honestly, if they played I believe they would beat the '07 team. Honestly, to me I am surprised that the '67 team is playing in one of the "play in games." They are way way way better then that. Unfortunately, I guess most of the fans who are on this board do not remember how good that team was.

[gonzagafan62]

I was a Freshman at GU in 1967 and saw every game. This was a GREAT team who finished in the top 20 in the AP poll. This was, most likely the first GREAT Gonzaga team. I doubt if they will win this game against the '07 team here on the internet because most who vote do not know how good that team was. Gary Lechman was unstoppable in the low post, and reminds me of JP Bautista, but a little shorter. He had great hands, knew how to use his big butt and would score almost every time he got the ball in the low post. Larry Brown was solid and reminds me of a better version of David Pendergraft. Chuck Thomas was a great rebounder and crafty on this inside. And Paz Rocha was a great point guard. He could fly, knew how to lead a fast break and he could score. He was pretty short, standing at 5' 9 or 10 but he was quick and tough to guard. John Doughtery and Mike McGinley were both very good off the bench and both could shoot from the outside.

This team had GREAT team chemistry, AND if you looked at them on paper (which most of you will probably do) they don't look as good as the '07 team maybe. But if you saw them on the court you would see why they were. They had the IT (team cohesiveness) factor.

Now let's talk about the '07 team. This was NOT one of the better Zag teams, and especially without Josh Heytvelt. Heytvelt was playing when the Zags beat North Carolina and played the game of his life. Heytvelt, as we all know, was not playing at the end of the season. Yes, Raivio put the Zags on his back after Josh was kicked off the team and they won the conference. But as we remember, it was almost a miracle that they did because one or two teams who were actually ahead of the Zags in conference going into the last weekend or two and they lost (one or two games). Sorry my memory is foggy. But I do remember in took a major miracle to win the conference. The '07 team kind of reminds me of the '13'14 Zags in the since that it took a miracle for the Zags to win the conference this past year too. Sam Dower's season this year kind of reminds me of Raivio's his senior year.

The '67 Bulldog team (they were not the Zags back then) was most likely the first team who had what we later identified as that Zag thing. The '07 team had it also, thanks to Raivio, but to me the Zag thing was stronger in '67. That team was very very tough to beat, and they finished in the top 20 in the AP polls. Back then only 16 NCAA teams were able to go to the NCAA tournament (or was it still just 4) and the UCLA Bruins were probably the better team coming out of the West. The Bulldogs beat a very good WSU team in Kennedy and I will never forget that game. It was awesome. Those WSU teams back then, coached by Marv Harshman, were very good. Harshman coached at WSU before going to UW.

I hope some of you who read my post will vote for the '67 team because honestly, if they played I believe they would beat the '07 team. Honestly, to me I am surprised that the '67 team is playing in one of the "play in games." They are way way way better then that. Unfortunately, I guess most of the fans who are on this board do not remember how good that team was.

Reborn, Fantastic post and agree with you wholeheartedly with this. As the 66-67 team was VERY good, I also had to move them down from a 3 seed to a 4 seed in the play in game, because I had to balance out making sure no teams in consecutive years played each other. I honestly think this is as good as the 43-44 team that finished the polls at #6. Both teams were very sufficient in scoring and both teams were very very talented. Most people forget how many good teams Gonzaga really has had over the course of their history.

I honestly have a belief that the 66-67 team would win also. Forget the years for a moment. Sure the talent is bigger better and stronger these days, however, that 07 team did not have Heytvelt at the end, and that really bugs me, personally. That's why I believe they are a play in game. Not only that but as you stated it took a miracle to win the championship game and conference that season. Really fun to watch.

Add in the fact that you have an all time Zag in Gary Lechman playing against Raivio and a very young Pargo, Bouldin and Pendo and Kuso.... I just don't see how the 66-67 team loses, but that's just my opinion honestly.

[wnczagfan]

Reborn: I never saw them play, but I researched them and came to the same conclusion: the '67 team was great. I believe they scored around 82 points per game on average, and that was without a three point shot.

Gonzagafan62: Thanks for doing this tournament! I have enjoyed learning about the teams of the past that I never got to see play.

[gozagswoohoo]

Awesome report on that squad, Reborn. Thanks!

[krozman]

I view these competitions as "what if they played today" rather than "compared to teams in that era, who was better." No team that GU has had in the last 10 years would lose to a 60's or 70s era team. The game has evolved so significantly that the depth, athleticism, and skill positions are so much better compared to that time. Every year they have that dumb "what if the best college team in the nation played the worst NFL team in the nation" argument, and every year the sportswriters and newscasters remind the world that the NFL team would demolish them significantly just because it's an unfair conversation. Maybe it's not that far apart in this case, but I think you see my point.

[Birddog]

Just a couple of points to clarify Reborn's post. Firstly, though it may not have been an official nickname, Gonzaga teams had definitely been referred to as "Zags" from at least the late 50's. This was GU's second team in a row to share the Big Sky Championship with Weber St ('65 team was 19 and 7, I think, and Lechman missed several early games due to injury). The 66 team was arguably as good as the 67 version and had Billy Suter at the PG and John Brodsky too.

The 67 squad had Jed Steele, who in today's game would be a 3 pt specialist. He would come off the bench and almost always light it up from deep. The Weber St teams were coached by Dick Motta who left just a year or so later and became the head coach of the Bulls. Weber had 2 guys who were great. Willie Sojourner was about 6'8" and could jump out of the gym, and Justice Thigpen was a terrific guard. Sojourner was drafted by the Bulls and the ABA Squires. He played several years in the ABA and was the guy who gave Julius Irving the name Dr J.. Thigpen played for the Pistons for a few years. Lechman and Brown were also part of the Vaughn Realty team that advanced to the quarter final game of the AAU nationals where they lost. The next year they advanced to the finals after beating the Phillips 66'ers That team was led by Lechman and Brown too and they turned quite a few heads. IIRC, the Sonics gave Lechman a courtesy tryout. Suffice it to say that the 67 team was pretty damn good, they could hold their own against more than a few later Zag teams IMO.

We split our games that season with Weber St , Idaho and Idaho St. We should not have lost to Idaho St, that was the why there was a scramble for the co championship which we clinched by beating Weber at the Kennedy Pavilion. I went to the game at Idaho which was a great game but we lost. Idaho St had a crazy guy as their coach who wore outrageous yellow sport coats, not unlike Craig Sager.

[hondo]

Very good report Birddog and Reborn. Hank Anderson had some more mature players also on this team. Lechman was 26 years old in 1967 and very crafty. Chuck Thomas was a thick and muscular player which was rare in those days. Chuck often comes to the alumni game in the Kennel. Jed Steele has done fantastically well in the wine business in Washington and California. Paz Rocha went into teaching and coaching in San Jose, where he coached with former Zag Art Taylor. John Dougherty from Jesuit High in Portland is now a dentist and his son playing for Santa Clara in 2007 went 7 for 7 from three point land as The Broncos got a rare win in Spokane. Pat Clark coached for years at Mead High School. Larry Brown after being on national TV on the Newlywed Game became a high school principle in Sacramento.
I believe a key to the success of the 66-67 team was a new assistant coach and defense fanatic, the legendary Bud Presley. Bud was a short timer at GU but later as the Shark's assistant at UNLV won a National Championship. It was indeed a great time to be at GU.

PS: that Weber team also included a damn good player named Nolan Archibald who got a tryout with the Bulls, didn't make it so he went on to become CEO of Black and Decker, a multi Billion dollar tool company. Archibald made more last year than Dirk and Kobe combined so not making the NBA was a good thing for Nolan.

[Zag365]

1966-67 was the real deal

Thanks Reborn, Birddog, and Hondo for bringing back great memories. I believe Lechman was right near the top of country in FG%. Bud Presley was a legend. McGinley and Rocha were great guards.

[Reborn]

This thread really takes me back to my playing days at Gonzaga. I was on the Freshman team in '66 and '67; so I had a pretty good view of the team, and traveled with them. They were very, very good. The reason I voted for them over the '07 team is that Heytveld can not really be counted as a player on that team, and that team played under a dark cloud for along time. It was a very tough year in the History of GU basketball.

The next season I played with a lot of these guys. Doughtery and McGinley were still on the team with Paz Roacha, Denny Bly and Tony Fore were on the team too. I was a starting guard with Paz Roacha and we were best friends. He was like a big brother to me. Too bad he was a senior. I really missed him after he graduated. Playing with him was so much fun.

[ZagaZags]

I went with 2007 for obvious reasons. This is like asking who would win between 1966 Packers vs 2013 Seahawks.

[Reborn]

You underestimate team chemistry and cohesiveness, ZagaZags. And the '67 team could shoot. I also believe you underestimate "old time" basketball. As has been mentioned, the '67 Gonzaga team averaged something like 82 ppg, which is very good even today, and there was no three-point shot. I'd say they'd average 90 ppg with a 3 pt line.

And you don't think the John Wooden UCLA teams weren't as good as say Kentucky right now?
Or that the '68 and '69 WSU teams under Marv Harshman were not better then most WSU teams today? That WSU team was very, very good. They finished second in the PAC 8 those two years behind the Lou Alcinder led Bruin teams. And they were one of the few teams that would play basketball with the Bruins. As many fans here on this forum will remember, most teams played as stalling game against UCLA, and games would seldom even reach 20 points.

There were lots of great NBA back in those days as well. Do you really believe that those guys could not play in the NBA today? Guys like Bill Russel, Wilt Chamberlain, Bob Cousey, John Havlechek, Sam and Casey Jones, Rick Berry, on and on and on?

[gonzagafan62]

Reborn: I never saw them play, but I researched them and came to the same conclusion: the '67 team was great. I believe they scored around 82 points per game on average, and that was without a three point shot.

Gonzagafan62: Thanks for doing this tournament! I have enjoyed learning about the teams of the past that I never got to see play.

Thanks for gratitude. Appreciate you stopping by! Go Zags!