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View Full Version : Slappy in trouble; how the other half live



jazzdelmar
03-25-2014, 07:29 AM
Kravitz: Noah Vonleh's departure means IU back to rebuilding - again


The recruitment of potential one-and-dones is a double-edged sword.

On the one hand, you get the best of the best, the five-star high school guys, players who can win you a national championship. It worked for Carmelo Anthony and Syracuse. It worked for Kentucky three seasons ago, and it seems to be working for the Wildcats in the current NCAA Tournament.

The problem is, if you're Indiana and you happen to have a miserable season, you get one year out of a player like Noah Vonleh and then he's gone forever, leaving the program in a major hole as it moves forward.

So what now for Indiana?

Tom Crean is in a pickle. He's back on the road now recruiting, and somehow, somewhere, he's got to find a big man, either from the high school ranks or a transfer. (I wonder what Luke Fischer is thinking right now; he would have been IU's primary post player next season).

Crean also has to find someone to replace Austin Etherington and Jeremy Hollowell, who are transferring.

Right now, he's got a team that's a very long shot to reach the NCAA Tournament. There's some talent there with Yogi Ferrell, Stanford Robinson and Troy Williams, but there's no size, which is a big problem in the muscular Big Ten.

What, you think Hanner Mosquera-Perea is the answer after two years of being a giant question mark? Peter Jurkin? Puh-leeze. Except for Ferrell, The Movement has been an over-hyped whiff.

I don't blame Vonleh for going pro, not when he's a sure-fire first-round draft pick and a likely lottery pick. There's no reason to risk injury at this point just ask Mitch McGary -- not when the NBA is calling with its developmental program and its big bucks. Is he ready? No, he's not ready. The last month of the season, he rarely scored or rebounded in double digits, although he ended the season by averaging 11.4 points and 9.1 rebounds.

But the NBA doesn't draft based on whether you're ready now. It drafts based on where teams project you will be in three or four years, and on that basis, Vonleh is an intriguing prospect. His athleticism, his motor and his low-post acumen make him a top-10 guy, by most estimates.

Was Cody Zeller ready when he jumped for the NBA? Not in the least. But he's getting his hard-earned education in the NBA, the highest form of basketball. And he will be a better player down the road from having learned by playing and practicing against the best.

Simply, Vonleh would have been crazy to stay. Who says no to millions of dollars? Who takes the risk of being injured in college? He blows out a knee in school, and it changes his entire professional and financial future. It changes his whole life.

Which brings us to the larger issue of one-and-dones. Everybody hates the concept. But this is the NBA's fault, not the NCAA's fault. It's the NBA's rule: Players can't become draft eligible until one year after their high school class graduates.

"I think we need a bigger, broader conversation about what should the relationship between college sport and professional sport be,'' NCAA chief Mark Emmert told USA Today. "Some people, me included, don't have any (problem) with people going to professional athletics and not coming to college.''

Exactly.

Top players should be able to go straight from high school to the NBA. It's worked out just fine for years, whether it's Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Amar'e Stoudemire, Jermaine O'Neal and many others. If the NBA thinks you're ready at age 18 and is willing to throw millions at you, why not have the freedom to pursue your dream?

At the very least, listen to Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban, who has said high school stars are better off eschewing college and going straight into the NBA's developmental league.

Academics? One and dones don't go to college to go to classes. They take them, mind you, and some of them take them quite seriously. But what's to say you can't go to the NBA developmental league and take classes at a local college? These players are better off competing and working with grown men as opposed to other college kids.

But never mind all that for now. Indiana is in crisis mode. Crean missed the NCAA and NIT and now he's got an increasingly empty cupboard.

Let the rebuilding begin.

Again.

WBM
03-25-2014, 08:01 AM
Which brings us to the larger issue of one-and-dones. Everybody hates the concept. But this is the NBA's fault, not the NCAA's fault. It's the NBA's rule: Players can't become draft eligible until one year after their high school class graduates.

"I think we need a bigger, broader conversation about what should the relationship between college sport and professional sport be,'' NCAA chief Mark Emmert told USA Today. "Some people, me included, don't have any (problem) with people going to professional athletics and not coming to college.''

Exactly.

Top players should be able to go straight from high school to the NBA. It's worked out just fine for years, whether it's Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Amar'e Stoudemire, Jermaine O'Neal and many others. If the NBA thinks you're ready at age 18 and is willing to throw millions at you, why not have the freedom to pursue your dream?

Great post. I do think, though, that the one-and-done rule by the NBA has folks wrongly classifying some high school stars as "one-and-done" when they actually should be "one-and-maybe-then-you'll-be-ready."

I will admit I wasn't paying attention to the NBA draft or high school prospects when Kobe and Lebron were going straight from HS to the NBA. I do see that some players could forgo the year in college, and I do think it would be better for college basketball overall if they did. There is a discrepancy though between the number of players in the NCAA that we tag as "waiting to go pro" and the number of players who I believe would get drafted straight out of high school. I would hope that if the rule were not in existence more players would choose to stay in college longer than their freshman year. I think we'd see development from potential to greatness in more players, and they would have more success in their professional playing careers, while leaving a more meaningful legacy in the NCAA record books.

The injury vs. paycheck argument is compelling, but it needs to be weighed against the benefit and detriment to both the NCAA and the NBA. "What about the players themselves?" Well, I've not played, so I can't speak to the "dream" but I imagine the dream was originally about competing and winning at the highest level, not about the millions. I believe more players staying longer would lead to a better overall talent pool in the NBA and thus to a more competitive NBA. And in that NBA, more teams (and thus more players) would have a shot at achieving greatness, which I imagine was the true, original dream.

wiszag
03-25-2014, 08:40 AM
I really don't feel bad for Clappy the Clown. He has a history of recruiting over players, running players off and not renewing scholarships. There a reason why there is a term on the Wisconsin board, "House Creaning." It happens every year. It used to happen at Marquette. His act is tired and I have zero sympathy for the guy.

Zagceo
03-25-2014, 09:05 AM
Why not do it like college baseball?


Major college players are eligible for the draft if they have finished their junior or senior years or will turn 21 years old no later than 45 days after the draft. High school graduates also are eligible if they have not started college. The effect of this rule is to allow elite high school players to turn pro immediately, while ensuring college teams have some measure of continuity with 3-year commitments. If a player enrolls at a 2-year college, he is eligible for the draft at any time.

cjm720
03-25-2014, 09:11 AM
I really like that idea, CEO

WBM
03-25-2014, 09:35 AM
Why not do it like college baseball?

Sounds good...

Birddog
03-25-2014, 09:43 AM
Did you guys hear Barkley on this the other day? He is in favor of more time in college. I can't remember if he said 3 years or not. He contends that with few exceptions, the players need to be older as they are not mature enough physically or mentally for the NBA game. He said Kobe and Lebron were two exceptions but for the most part players need time to develop. The problem is, that if they go to the NBA when young (1 and done), the teams tend to play them if they can, to get an ROI.He maintains that the level of play in the NBA has suffered as a result.

BobZag
03-25-2014, 09:47 AM
Any of those transfers possible future Zags?

WBM
03-25-2014, 09:56 AM
Did you guys hear Barkley on this the other day? He is in favor of more time in college. I can't remember if he said 3 years or not. He contends that with few exceptions, the players need to be older as they are not mature enough physically or mentally for the NBA game. He said Kobe and Lebron were two exceptions but for the most part players need time to develop. The problem is, that if they go to the NBA when young (1 and done), the teams tend to play them if they can, to get an ROI. He maintains that the level of play in the NBA has suffered as a result.

I agree with Barkley on that. I think the NBA gets the same number of bodies in the door each year, but they are younger and less developed. I think that is the NBA's creation, though, as the one-and-done rule they imposed creates this false perception by athletes that they only need one year to develop.

Prior to this thread, I was in favor of either no age rule or Silver's higher age rule. Basically, if they go pro right out of high-school, fine. The market will decide if they're good enough. And if they aren't, they should be allowed to go to college but they have to stay for a couple of years. Basically, what someone explained about the MLB draft rules above sounds perfect. One exception is that someone's decision to declare for the draft out of high-school should not exempt them from playing college ball if they don't get drafted or signed by a team.

Basically, if something like the MLB rules (as I understand them from a two-sentence summary I read an hour ago) was put in place in the NBA, I think we'd see more talented draft classes with the majority being sophomores or juniors coming out of college, and the occasional phenom straight out of high school.

Zagceo
03-25-2014, 10:05 AM
One exception is that someone declaring for the draft out of high-school should not exempt them from playing college ball if they don't get drafted or signed by a team.

The way MLB (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/draftday/rules.jsp) runs it is.......... if you have graduated from high school you are eligible until you attend your first class at a four year college. I remember the negotiations between Arod and the mariners went right up to the day of classes at Miami and story went something like he agreed to the deal as he was walking to his first class. Who knows if it was true but it was within the rules.

skan72
03-25-2014, 10:45 AM
Why not do it like college baseball?

I saw this posted on reddit the other day, and I really like this idea, too. Maybe some adjustments need to be made to it, but in essence I think it would work better than the one-and-done stuff.

Mojo13
03-25-2014, 10:48 AM
First, I can't believe I need to say this but, but Barkely is an idiot.
Per Basketball Prospectus:
http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2171

"For all the hemming and hawing about the dangers of letting high schoolers go straight to the NBA, only 15 percent of prep draftees were “scrubs” or worse, while 74 percent were starters or better (and 18 percent were classified as “superstars”).

In the meantime, the college game has had difficulty producing those kinds of superstars. Since 2000, only 67 of the 120 First- or Second-Team All-NBA slots were filled by players who went to college at all, and nine of the 19 “superstars” who debuted since 1995 saw zero college action."


Correct me if I am wrong, but in America 18 years olds have the right to work, for this to be compromised by a union that doen't even represent them is unbelievable.

WBM
03-25-2014, 11:00 AM
First, I can't believe I need to say this but, but Barkely is an idiot.
Per Basketball Prospectus:
http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2171

"For all the hemming and hawing about the dangers of letting high schoolers go straight to the NBA, only 15 percent of prep draftees were “scrubs” or worse, while 74 percent were starters or better (and 18 percent were classified as “superstars”).

In the meantime, the college game has had difficulty producing those kinds of superstars. Since 2000, only 67 of the 120 First- or Second-Team All-NBA slots were filled by players who went to college at all, and nine of the 19 “superstars” who debuted since 1995 saw zero college action."


Correct me if I am wrong, but in America 18 years olds have the right to work, for this to be compromised by a union that doen't even represent them is unbelievable.

Even idiots can be right about something now and again. I'd be interested in seeing the same data analysis but split into two timeframes; before the CBA included the one-and-done rule, and after.

Again, I trust the market (NBA Owners/GMs) to decide which players belong in the NBA at age 18. But if they aren't signed right out of high school, and they want to commit to playing college basketball, I do support them staying for two years. I think it will be better for college basketball in general, and I think it will lead to a better system for developing players. And if they don't want to go to college? Cuban's right -- they can go to the D-League and try to make it there. The only knock on the D-League is they then forfeit their eligibility in the NCAA if they don't pan out there.

Mojo13
03-25-2014, 11:16 AM
Read the link - it may help.

"Curiously, though, the controversial age-limit rule that the NBA instituted in 2006 has not been particularly effective either when it comes to cultivating superstars at the college level. During the present one-and-done era, only one “superstar” (Kevin Durant) and four All-Stars (Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Roy Hibbert and Brandon Roy) have been culled from the All-America ranks, representing just 9% of First- and Second-Team All-Americans over that span--by far the lowest percentage in a 5-year stretch since 1981."

seacatfan
03-25-2014, 11:35 AM
Read the link - it may help.

"Curiously, though, the controversial age-limit rule that the NBA instituted in 2006 has not been particularly effective either when it comes to cultivating superstars at the college level. During the present one-and-done era, only one “superstar” (Kevin Durant) and four All-Stars (Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Roy Hibbert and Brandon Roy) have been culled from the All-America ranks, representing just 9% of First- and Second-Team All-Americans over that span--by far the lowest percentage in a 5-year stretch since 1981."

So how would it have been any different if there was no one and done rule? If there were not very many future NBA all-stars coming out of college during this period, then there weren't very many future NBA all-stars playing in high school at the same time. Not sure that this tells us anything.

TexasZagFan
03-25-2014, 11:43 AM
Read the link - it may help.

"Curiously, though, the controversial age-limit rule that the NBA instituted in 2006 has not been particularly effective either when it comes to cultivating superstars at the college level. During the present one-and-done era, only one “superstar” (Kevin Durant) and four All-Stars (Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Roy Hibbert and Brandon Roy) have been culled from the All-America ranks, representing just 9% of First- and Second-Team All-Americans over that span--by far the lowest percentage in a 5-year stretch since 1981."


I don't have the stats handy, but going back to 1981 isn't that useful. When did the massive influx of foreign players begin? 1990's?