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zagzilla
03-12-2014, 09:47 PM
This year the long break between the WCC championship and the opening round of NCAA's is a blessing for us. Kevin gets 9 (or hopefully 10) days to rest his toe. Not sure if that is enough to make a difference at this point, but it should help.

Watching him the last couple of games has been really difficult. How much of that is injury and how much is it the WCC teams who know us best game planning to take him out of the game and make the other guards beat them? For instance, SCU admitted playing away from Stox who burned them for it.

Having said that, I went back and looked at his shooting stats for the last 7 road games since senior night and he's shooting 42% from the field and 3PFG at 35%. His career average for FG% is just under 43% so he's not shoot badly overall. His career 3PFG% is around 41% so he's definitely in a bit of a slump there.

Taking nothing away from Dower, PK, DS, GBJ and the rest of the guys, but we're going to need to see the old Kevin Pangos who torched Arkansas for 34, WSU & Dayton for 27 and BYU for 24 if we want to advance to the second weekend and beyond this year.

Go Zags!

ZZ

hooter73
03-12-2014, 11:08 PM
we can hope but the best case scenario is he rests for as long as a guy like him can, then he gets back into his practice rhythm which seems to be the recipe for his in game shooting.

I think the entire nation now knows that if you face guard him 100% of the time, he wont be able to create his own shot right now. not expecting the old pangos to sneak up and drop 7 or 9 threes on anyone in the first round or two.

CDC84
03-12-2014, 11:19 PM
He will not heal until he gets that foot in a boot and does nothing but stand still shooting on the basketball floor for 8-12 weeks. I would be very surprised if we see anything different from Kevin next week unless some dummy coach perceives him as non-offensive threat. He's going to have issues if the opposing team's best defender keeps getting assigned to him. Even more so in the NCAA tournament. I sure hope I am proven wrong, but I am just not optimistic.

Birddog
03-13-2014, 05:14 AM
He's going to have issues if the opposing team's best defender keeps getting assigned to him. Even more so in the NCAA tournament. I sure hope I am proven wrong, but I am just not optimistic
What CDC said. He's gotta get open to take a decent shot. He has been closely guarded down the stretch.

Zagsker
03-13-2014, 05:29 AM
I am just not seeing a hobbled Pangos out there, he looks to be moving around pretty good

Zagsker
03-13-2014, 05:33 AM
I just think teams know how to defend him...stay in his hip pocket on the perimeter, make him drive. And on that same note: Pangos doesn't seem to have difficulties taking it to the rack (as he has been doing over the past couple games)

jazzdelmar
03-13-2014, 05:50 AM
KP does not appear to be hurting. He has become quite passive though, particularly in contrast to his earlier "shoot til you get hot" mentality. He's certainly not the same player vs Arkansas and last year. Let's recall he was a fringe Wooden/Cousy awardee type talent. He needs a re-set next year, with a different squad of players. Perkins and/or Melson might even push him; let's hope. I don't expect the 2013 model KP in the NCs.

Reborn
03-13-2014, 07:14 AM
The beauty of this team, and what they have done, is that they've built a very efficient offensive team even with the TOE. Some time ago BZ wrote a thread and stated the GU would go as far as the toe would go. It was a cool thread and the content in that thread has traveled with me all season. And now here we are with a conference championship and a conference tournament championship, and probably Gonzaga's best game of the season was the last one. The toe is still injured, and yet the team is not. It's cool. GU scored 75 points in it's last game against BYU and really should have scored 80 with better foul shooting. And 80 is what we would have scored if Kevin did not have the injury.

The wonderful thing is that Kevin is playing amazing defense, and he is tougher then nails. I honestly did not believe that Gonzaga would be able to beat BYU with the small three guard offense, and or the 4 guard offense. BYU has big guards who are good and can play. And they have two big and good post players who can board. I believed that in order to beat them that David Stockton would have to spend most of his time on the bench, or that he and Kevin would share bench time so Few could play a big guard lineup. And I was wrong again. Kevin and David played most of the game, and Few played the four guard lineup almost half the game.

I watched the game a second time yesterday and I can say one thing about this Gonzaga team, and that is that they are tough. Kyle Dranginis was so tough on the boards that I could hardly believe it. I finally realized why he is playing so much. And Barham gave all he had on the defensive end and played his best defensive game of the year against BYU. Yes, we did get out rebounded, and probably by a margin that would normally hurt a team, but it DID NOT hurt GU. Oh, I forgot. Dower was a beast on the boards Tuesday night.

The amazing thing about the toe is that it can play defense. Kevin has always been a tough defensive player but this year he has needed to be even tougher and he is. He's always the guy on the floor, drawing offensive charging calls and diving for loose balls. He can rebound too. The beauty of the toe is that it has forced the Bulldogs to become the tough defensive team that they have often lacked in past years, and have needed to be this year.

Go Zags!!!

zag67
03-13-2014, 07:29 AM
Reborn great post. I also would have thought that our small lineup would not work, but I guess that is why we are getting our big bucks. This week was the first time this year I got to see the team in person. Their defense was unbelievable. In order for it to work every player has to give 100 percent and know what their role is on every switch. Bell or Dranginnis (whoever was guarding the shooter) also knew that they never helped.

Also Reborn one correction, Pangos and Stockton did not play most of the game, each played 40 minutes (just kidding). But when I was watching the first half I realized that Stockton had not rested. I would think that this was the first time in his career that he played the complete game.
Also I think that Pangos was used as a decoy in many of our games and only shoots when wide open or the defense slips up and forgets about him. That to me is a great player tHat is willing to sacrifice form the team. Even injured he is a threat and if you leave him alone he will hurt you.

Nice win and great tournament. Go Zags.

LongIslandZagFan
03-13-2014, 07:31 AM
KP does not appear to be hurting. He has become quite passive though, particularly in contrast to his earlier "shoot til you get hot" mentality. He's certainly not the same player vs Arkansas and last year. Let's recall he was a fringe Wooden/Cousy awardee type talent. He needs a re-set next year, with a different squad of players. Perkins and/or Melson might even push him; let's hope. I don't expect the 2013 model KP in the NCs.

Keyword is "appear".

If he isn't playing like the same player we have seen for the last 2 years and the player he was earlier in the season... then I'd say it DOES appear that he is hurting. I think it borders on silly to insinuate that this is a mental block and that he isn't still injured.

kitzbuel
03-13-2014, 07:55 AM
He's going to have issues if the opposing team's best defender keeps getting assigned to him. Even more so in the NCAA tournament. I sure hope I am proven wrong, but I am just not optimistic.
I hope that happens. That means that defender won't be on Bell, Draino or Stockton.

Zagsker
03-13-2014, 07:56 AM
Keyword is "appear".

If he isn't playing like the same player we have seen for the last 2 years and the player he was earlier in the season... then I'd say it DOES appear that he is hurting. I think it borders on silly to insinuate that this is a mental block and that he isn't still injured.

Has Pangos looked hobbled when he has driven it too the hoop? Not to me. I think there may be some lingering effects from his injury but my take is that he is just flat out cold and teams put a quick defender on him to ensure he cannot get good looks, couple that with our poor on the ball screens and he just cannot get open

kitzbuel
03-13-2014, 07:56 AM
BTW, is KP's new nickname 'The Toe'?

kitzbuel
03-13-2014, 07:58 AM
Has Pangos looked hobbled when he has driven it too the hoop? Not to me. I think there may be some lingering effects from his injury but my take is that he is just flat out cold and teams put a quick defender on him to ensure he cannot get good looks, couple that with our poor on the ball screens and he just cannot get open
He has had some miserable looking drives to the hoop. There have been a couple that were disasters that resulted in him crumbling into a heap on the floor and the ball careening of into the waiting arms of a defender.

Zagsker
03-13-2014, 08:00 AM
He has had some miserable looking drives to the hoop. There have been a couple that were disasters that resulted in him crumbling into a heap on the floor and the ball careening of into the waiting arms of a defender.

I am talking about Pangos not Stockton



Lol

kitzbuel
03-13-2014, 08:03 AM
I am talking about Pangos not Stockton



Lol
Ditto

LongIslandZagFan
03-13-2014, 08:06 AM
Has Pangos looked hobbled when he has driven it too the hoop? Not to me. I think there may be some lingering effects from his injury but my take is that he is just flat out cold and teams put a quick defender on him to ensure he cannot get good looks, couple that with our poor on the ball screens and he just cannot get open

All this reminds me of Bell his freshman year. People complaining about how he wasn't shooting well, etc. Meanwhile he was playing injured the whole time.

Is it an injury that is going to keep him from driving to the hoop. No. Is the pain he is feeling impacting him both mentally and physically, certainly looks like it to me.

Again, turf toe kept an offensive lineman in the NFL out for half a season. KP hasn't stopped playing.

Bushman
03-13-2014, 08:24 AM
Strangely enough it is the ankle injury that is the issue. Kevin does not feel balanced when moving into a shot. When a pure shooter doesn't feel confident with his feet being set, it is difficult to let it go. Kevin is still an important player to have on the floor as he demands attention. In the final, off a screen, both defenders went to Kevin and Sam was wide open for a slam. Sure it would be nice to see the Kevin from mid-season but one has to ask themselves the question "would you have thought the Zags would win the WWC championships with Kevin only making 2 shots from the floor in the last 2 games?" My answer would be no.
Why is this? Sometimes other players need to step it up offensively, sometimes a new game philosophy needs to be created, sometimes players need to leave it on the floor. I think all 3 have happened. The good news is that our defence has improved to the point where it can win us a game, other players are being more offensive and do these guys work hard. I was lucky enough to see all the tournament games, good to get out of the snow, and I was very impressed with team. Sure they were not clicking on offence all the time but their commitment to defence and never give up attitude won them the title.
I spent some time with Kevin and his family after each game and they are awesome people. It put things in perspective. Kevin is still just a young gut and his family is close and supportive. No one is more frustrated than Kevin about his ankle but he will do whatever to takes to win. He did for me.
Fun fact, the championship game was the first time Kevin did not score a basket in a game, at any level at any age group.........ever.

Can't wait for the tourney!

CdAZagFan
03-13-2014, 08:25 AM
I think the time off will better help KP by getting him into the gym and just shooting, shooting, shooting… I think Mark Few was talking about it midway through the season, how KP was hurt more by sitting out of practices and not being able to shoot. He's a gym rat, so he does best when is in the gym shooting. At this point in the season, I hope he isn't resting his toe and am hoping he is just working on his shot. I would love to see him have a WSU-like game (Washington State, that is) and rain the 3's in the tournament!

DixieZag
03-13-2014, 08:32 AM
Strangely enough it is the ankle injury that is the issue. Kevin does not feel balanced when moving into a shot. When a pure shooter doesn't feel confident with his feet being set, it is difficult to let it go. Kevin is still an important player to have on the floor as he demands attention. In the final, off a screen, both defenders went to Kevin and Sam was wide open for a slam. Sure it would be nice to see the Kevin from mid-season but one has to ask themselves the question "would you have thought the Zags would win the WWC championships with Kevin only making 2 shots from the floor in the last 2 games?" My answer would be no.
Why is this? Sometimes other players need to step it up offensively, sometimes a new game philosophy needs to be created, sometimes players need to leave it on the floor. I think all 3 have happened. The good news is that our defence has improved to the point where it can win us a game, other players are being more offensive and do these guys work hard. I was lucky enough to see all the tournament games, good to get out of the snow, and I was very impressed with team. Sure they were not clicking on offence all the time but their commitment to defence and never give up attitude won them the title.
I spent some time with Kevin and his family after each game and they are awesome people. It put things in perspective. Kevin is still just a young gut and his family is close and supportive. No one is more frustrated than Kevin about his ankle but he will do whatever to takes to win. He did for me.
Fun fact, the championship game was the first time Kevin did not score a basket in a game, at any level at any age group.........ever.

Can't wait for the tourney!

Interesting. Well, if it is the ankle, then the idea of some rest really does provide at least some hope for it to be a little better. Far more than the toe.

And, don't think for a second that anyone doubts how great a guy and how tough Kevin is. That's part of the problem, he's never going to complain about being injured, he's going to go 100% of what he's got, even if he had a spear sticking out of he thigh, so it is not as obvious as the type of player that is constantly talking about it in the media.

Keep the good stuff coming. . . and I don't think we'll see another game of no field goals soon!

Billfish'80
03-13-2014, 08:37 AM
Strangely enough it is the ankle injury that is the issue.

Now that's encouraging! A week and a half off will help the ankle get stronger. He has been saying the toe has fealt pretty good for a while now. Hope his ankle can strengthen up before tournament. I have renewed hope of seeing the old Kevin again this post-season!
Thanks for the insight, Bushman!

cjm720
03-13-2014, 08:37 AM
He will not heal until he gets that foot in a boot and does nothing but stand still shooting on the basketball floor for 8-12 weeks. I would be very surprised if we see anything different from Kevin next week unless some dummy coach perceives him as non-offensive threat. He's going to have issues if the opposing team's best defender keeps getting assigned to him. Even more so in the NCAA tournament. I sure hope I am proven wrong, but I am just not optimistic.

I fear he will never be normal again, then. By all accounts he's a gym rat...don't see how he'll stay inactive for that long. Hope I'm wrong.

Agree with Jazz that the young guys will push him more than we might have ever thought.

vandalzag
03-13-2014, 09:38 AM
All this reminds me of Bell his freshman year. People complaining about how he wasn't shooting well, etc. Meanwhile he was playing injured the whole time.

Is it an injury that is going to keep him from driving to the hoop. No. Is the pain he is feeling impacting him both mentally and physically, certainly looks like it to me.

Again, turf toe kept an offensive lineman in the NFL out for half a season. KP hasn't stopped playing.

Agreed. Something is not right, may be the fact that he has had injuries to both feet. Just seems like there is a little something off when he drives. He just looks hesitant and that is usually a sign of injury. He also may have dead legs. He has logged a ton of minutes this year, the majority of which he was hurt. Playing hurt takes much more out of you then playing healthy. He is too good and plays with too much confidence (when healthy) to be playing like he did during the tourney. Hopefully the 10 days gets him up and ready to go.

jazzdelmar
03-13-2014, 09:38 AM
Keyword is "appear".

If he isn't playing like the same player we have seen for the last 2 years and the player he was earlier in the season... then I'd say it DOES appear that he is hurting. I think it borders on silly to insinuate that this is a mental block and that he isn't still injured.

Pick up an MD at Columbia Prez, LI?

kitzbuel
03-13-2014, 09:52 AM
Strangely enough it is the ankle injury that is the issue. Kevin does not feel balanced when moving into a shot. When a pure shooter doesn't feel confident with his feet being set, it is difficult to let it go. Kevin is still an important player to have on the floor as he demands attention. In the final, off a screen, both defenders went to Kevin and Sam was wide open for a slam. Sure it would be nice to see the Kevin from mid-season but one has to ask themselves the question "would you have thought the Zags would win the WWC championships with Kevin only making 2 shots from the floor in the last 2 games?" My answer would be no.
Why is this? Sometimes other players need to step it up offensively, sometimes a new game philosophy needs to be created, sometimes players need to leave it on the floor. I think all 3 have happened. The good news is that our defence has improved to the point where it can win us a game, other players are being more offensive and do these guys work hard. I was lucky enough to see all the tournament games, good to get out of the snow, and I was very impressed with team. Sure they were not clicking on offence all the time but their commitment to defence and never give up attitude won them the title.
I spent some time with Kevin and his family after each game and they are awesome people. It put things in perspective. Kevin is still just a young gut and his family is close and supportive. No one is more frustrated than Kevin about his ankle but he will do whatever to takes to win. He did for me.
Fun fact, the championship game was the first time Kevin did not score a basket in a game, at any level at any age group.........ever.

Can't wait for the tourney!
That fits. I have definitely seen him not being very comfortable with lateral movement.

Hoopaholic
03-13-2014, 10:50 AM
Strangely enough it is the ankle injury that is the issue. Kevin does not feel balanced when moving into a shot. When a pure shooter doesn't feel confident with his feet being set, it is difficult to let it go. Kevin is still an important player to have on the floor as he demands attention. In the final, off a screen, both defenders went to Kevin and Sam was wide open for a slam. Sure it would be nice to see the Kevin from mid-season but one has to ask themselves the question "would you have thought the Zags would win the WWC championships with Kevin only making 2 shots from the floor in the last 2 games?" My answer would be no.
Why is this? Sometimes other players need to step it up offensively, sometimes a new game philosophy needs to be created, sometimes players need to leave it on the floor. I think all 3 have happened. The good news is that our defence has improved to the point where it can win us a game, other players are being more offensive and do these guys work hard. I was lucky enough to see all the tournament games, good to get out of the snow, and I was very impressed with team. Sure they were not clicking on offence all the time but their commitment to defence and never give up attitude won them the title.
I spent some time with Kevin and his family after each game and they are awesome people. It put things in perspective. Kevin is still just a young gut and his family is close and supportive. No one is more frustrated than Kevin about his ankle but he will do whatever to takes to win. He did for me.
Fun fact, the championship game was the first time Kevin did not score a basket in a game, at any level at any age group.........ever.

Can't wait for the tourney!

thanks......confirms what my eyes were seeing...his only comfort level in shooting was the curl screen to the corner where he can step in and set the feet....so you explanation confirms what my eyes were seeing

Zagceo
03-13-2014, 11:11 AM
Come tourney time and we have our match up don't you think that coaching staffs come to boards like this to try and mine any additional information from fans which may not have been released to the press in detail?

Like the current status of injuries.

Just wondering if we're helping ourselves by breaking down our injuries for our competition.

I know we're all interested in our players but sometimes less is more for the team.

Just saying........

Midwestzag
03-13-2014, 11:11 AM
Still playing tough hard-nosed defense. Not forcing the issue on offense. I'm impressed. Great leader. GU is in good hands for the next five games this year. Next year, Pangos will keep the team focused and in the top ten the entire season.

gamagin
03-13-2014, 11:17 AM
+1


Strangely enough it is the ankle injury that is the issue. Kevin does not feel balanced when moving into a shot. When a pure shooter doesn't feel confident with his feet being set, it is difficult to let it go. Kevin is still an important player to have on the floor as he demands attention. In the final, off a screen, both defenders went to Kevin and Sam was wide open for a slam. Sure it would be nice to see the Kevin from mid-season but one has to ask themselves the question "would you have thought the Zags would win the WWC championships with Kevin only making 2 shots from the floor in the last 2 games?" My answer would be no.
Why is this? Sometimes other players need to step it up offensively, sometimes a new game philosophy needs to be created, sometimes players need to leave it on the floor. I think all 3 have happened. The good news is that our defence has improved to the point where it can win us a game, other players are being more offensive and do these guys work hard. I was lucky enough to see all the tournament games, good to get out of the snow, and I was very impressed with team. Sure they were not clicking on offence all the time but their commitment to defence and never give up attitude won them the title.
I spent some time with Kevin and his family after each game and they are awesome people. It put things in perspective. Kevin is still just a young gut and his family is close and supportive. No one is more frustrated than Kevin about his ankle but he will do whatever to takes to win. He did for me.
Fun fact, the championship game was the first time Kevin did not score a basket in a game, at any level at any age group.........ever.

Can't wait for the tourney!

Nothing like a little fresh air from an eyewitness and former coach of KP's. thank you once again.

Can you tell us if KP or anyone else reads this board ? Any indications ?
re KP: I noticed a marked compensation in his usual delivery, from the legs and a spring in the feet, going on when he was shooting free throws in the BYU game. I think he missed more (2-3 ?) than he has in the past 10 or so games (a guess, but I think I'm close). But the point to me was that leg or toe was still very bothersome and affects the entirety of the motion that is patented KP. Make sense ?

thanks

wnczagfan
03-13-2014, 11:22 AM
thanks......confirms what my eyes were seeing...his only comfort level in shooting was the curl screen to the corner where he can step in and set the feet....so you explanation confirms what my eyes were seeing

Yes, definitely helps explain things. He is still playing great defense and drawing a defender on offense, so contributing well. Hopefully A week off will help a little....

wnczagfan
03-13-2014, 11:24 AM
I am talking about Pangos not Stockton



Lol

-1

Fonebone
03-13-2014, 11:31 AM
Prior to this current down period for Kevin, my perception of him was that he almost never missed on a drive to the basket. Now, he misses regularly and sometimes he misses by a lot. Clearly his ability to drive and finish is not remotely the same. For whatever reason.

Zagsker
03-13-2014, 01:06 PM
-1

-1




making it a positive...swish!!!!

wnczagfan
03-13-2014, 01:33 PM
-1




making it a positive...swish!!!!

Haha :D

CDC84
03-13-2014, 02:20 PM
I ask anyone who doubts how much Pangos is hurting to go back to the Arkansas game in Maui when Pangos was routinely blowing by athletic defenders that the WCC can't match.

cjm720
03-13-2014, 02:23 PM
I ask anyone who doubts how much Pangos is hurting to go back to the Arkansas game in Maui when Pangos was routinely blowing by athletic defenders that the WCC can't match.

Plus he's not one to historically defer to teammates. It's obvious, especially with his lateral quickness...that was his biggest offseason improvement IMO. Rest up!!!

wnczagfan
03-15-2014, 06:29 AM
Funny thread over on the BYU board about a BYU fan meeting Kevinů

http://www.cougarboard.com/board/message.html?id=12142175


P.S. if you go down to the fifth or sixth post, it is a link to a picture of Kevin and him, haha.