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demian
03-11-2014, 09:39 PM
is he injured? Its a fair question!! I am not trying to start a fight even tho I know this original post has been viewed as a reason to inflame a fight on this message board. I wasn't sure my eyes or memory were correct while watching game when I thought he didn't play at all, then I just checked box score and noticed he didn't get a second tonight. I am seriously asking the question did he get hurt or something. I didn't watch the Santa Clara game the other night nor the St Marys game so I am wondering if I missed something in either of those games that he may have gotten injured or something cuz I am surprised he didn't play at all tonight

Ezag
03-11-2014, 09:43 PM
Coleman not needed by the few meister

demian
03-11-2014, 09:46 PM
Ok thanks Ezag. So no injury then. Well I am at least glad he isn't injured

sittingon50
03-11-2014, 09:49 PM
Unfortunately vs BYU I think he would have been a turnover machine. Like Drew the other night, it's all about match-ups.

Zag 77
03-11-2014, 09:51 PM
He has a few deficits: Can't shoot anything but layups, and then only if nobody is within 10 feet of him. Not a good free throw shooter. Not a good rebounder. Not a particularly good defender.

I guess if you give him the ball all by himself under the basket with nobody around he can probably do a nice dunk. Big whoop.

He has a hell of a lot of work to do this summer. Whomever his youth, AAU and HS coaches were should be taken out and shot for letting him get by with no basketball fundamentals.

seacatfan
03-11-2014, 09:54 PM
I was excited about Coleman's potential earlier in the season. I'm pretty much resigned to the fact he isn't part of Few's plans going forward. Going to rot on the bench next year. Coming to GU was probably a huge mistake for Coleman.

Birddog
03-11-2014, 10:02 PM
I was excited about Coleman's potential earlier in the season. I'm pretty much resigned to the fact he isn't part of Few's plans going forward. Going to rot on the bench next year. Coming to GU was probably a huge mistake for Coleman.
Do you feel like that is an injustice? If so, why?

Personally, I think he can be a 6th man ,but he needs to work on some fundamentals first.

JPtheBeasta
03-11-2014, 10:05 PM
He has a few deficits: Can't shoot anything but layups, and then only if nobody is within 10 feet of him. Not a good free throw shooter. Not a good rebounder. Not a particularly good defender.

I guess if you give him the ball all by himself under the basket with nobody around he can probably do a nice dunk. Big whoop.

He has a hell of a lot of work to do this summer. Whomever his youth, AAU and HS coaches were should be taken out and shot for letting him get by with no basketball fundamentals.

I like what he brings to the table. He definitely can reign it a bit but you are being quite hyperbolic, in my opinion.

bigblahla
03-11-2014, 10:12 PM
Do you feel like that is an injustice? If so, why?

Personally, I think he can be a 6th man ,but he needs to work on some fundamentals first.

+1

He can earn his spot.

Go!! Zags!!!

CdAZagFan
03-11-2014, 10:20 PM
I thought he was working his way into the system earlier in the season… Now, no minutes. I think he deserves a few minutes - he causes some issues on defense with his long arms, and I still like how he attacks zone defenses.

hooter73
03-11-2014, 10:54 PM
He has a few deficits: Can't shoot anything but layups, and then only if nobody is within 10 feet of him. Not a good free throw shooter. Not a good rebounder. Not a particularly good defender.

I guess if you give him the ball all by himself under the basket with nobody around he can probably do a nice dunk. Big whoop.

He has a hell of a lot of work to do this summer. Whomever his youth, AAU and HS coaches were should be taken out and shot for letting him get by with no basketball fundamentals.

Truth has been told here.

sittingon50
03-11-2014, 11:10 PM
Gerard has some skills. He can fill a role & help win some games, ala DB, KD, etc.

His demeanor on the bench in Vegas seemed to be good.

zagamatic
03-11-2014, 11:28 PM
I can't remember many, if any, wcc tournament games where Few has gone deep into his bench. Not to say that Coleman collects dust on the end, but I don't think that coach wants to throw out a wild card and hope for the best when the title is on the line unless he's forced to. He always seems to go with the guys with the least risk this time of year. And as much as I like Coleman, he can go either way.

maynard g krebs
03-12-2014, 12:44 AM
He has a few deficits: Can't shoot anything but layups, and then only if nobody is within 10 feet of him.

I didn't read beyond this sentence because I've seen him score a bunch of times close in going over/around people; taking it to the rack in traffic is his one great strength. Hope the rest of your post was better than this sentence.

That said, trying to teach system basketball to an up and down free form style player is a long shot for both parties, and it looks like he's not more than a situational role player at GU unless he develops a jumper in the next 6 months.

2wiceright
03-12-2014, 12:55 AM
I didn't read beyond this sentence because I've seen him score a bunch of times close in going over/around people; taking it to the rack in traffic is his one great strength. Hope the rest of your post was better than this sentence.

+1 In the right situation (depending on who we're playing and what kind of defense) Gerard has shown the ability to come in and not only play good defense but score points in bunches.... So he's definitely a situational player, another tool in the tool box for Few. With some hard work in the off-season, if he can get some confidence in a 10- 15 footer he could easily become a more regular player off the bench, IMO.

jazzdelmar
03-12-2014, 01:24 AM
Coleman and Nunez stand out for their strong athleticism and their utter lack of basketball acumen. I don't see either playing major minutes going forward. What's astonishing is Coleman's numbers at PC and the that Nunez was recruited by Pitino. They are high risk, medium reward guys.

ZagaZags
03-12-2014, 01:30 AM
Coleman and Nunez stand out for their strong athleticism and their utter lack of basketball acumen. I don't see either playing major minutes going forward. What's astonishing is Coleman's numbers at PC and the that Nunez was recruited by Pitino. They are high risk, medium reward guys.

They will get better next season.

jazzdelmar
03-12-2014, 01:43 AM
They will get better next season.

Don't see it ZZ. Nunez maybe. Coleman is an AAU player. If the Zags play in Viejas how do we get tix?

basketballzag
03-12-2014, 06:13 AM
Don't see it ZZ. Nunez maybe. Coleman is an AAU player. If the Zags play in Viejas how do we get tix?

Both have all the tools but need personal attention to fix the areas of their game they weren't coached in. Quite honestly if either or both want to make it to the next level they should take a redshirt next year. They have the tools just not the knowledge of how to implement them correctly on a consistent basis. They have a future at GU though and they didn't make a mistake transferring here.

Birddog
03-12-2014, 06:43 AM
Both have all the tools but need personal attention to fix the areas of their game they weren't coached in. Quite honestly if either or both want to make it to the next level they should take a redshirt next year. They have the tools just not the knowledge of how to implement them correctly on a consistent basis. They have a future at GU though and they didn't make a mistake transferring here.
Both Coleman and Nunez have already had a redshirt year. I think it's possible that Nunez could be granted an extra "medical redshirt" year but that only comes with an appeal after eligibility is completed (4 years in 5) as I understand it.

I think the most direct route to more PT for Coleman is through defense followed by FT shooting which should improve his mid range game too. It'll take some diligence.

SWZag
03-12-2014, 07:25 AM
Matchups is the answer. Game situation is the answer. I like Few playing the matchup game.

Edwards had 5 minutes last night. Less than one against SMC, 0 against SCU.
Barham had 13 last night. 15 against SMC, 4 against SCU.
As with Coleman, 0 last night. 9 against SMC, 8 against SCU

zag67
03-12-2014, 08:33 AM
I agree with SW, matchups drive the decisions. I think both of them can be super role players next year if they work hard this summer. I also think Nunez will be a major player his senior year. He is athletic, but he. Does not know when to use it. He is used to dominating, but at this level you have to know when you are in control and when the other team is in control. I think that Coleman has shown great strides in his defense and is recognizing a pass more often. I think if he works on a mid range jumper, he will also be a force.

U Zig, I Zag
03-12-2014, 08:58 AM
I don't agree with negative assements at all. I agree with the notion each player needs to work on a couple things, but I think they have the skills to get there if they get the right attention and dedicate themselves to getting better. I think Angel has dreams of being E Jr. and like Elias battled at times - there is a tendency to be a bit of a bull in a china shop. I think if angel can learn to take a breath and be more spatially aware he'll play better. He looks a bit lost out there at times, so hopefully he gets a better feel of his positioning and where he should be on the floor.

Coleman needs an outside shot. His D is good. He is lanky and super springy. Some of his finishes at the rim this year were insane. He has great handles for how 'frantic' he looks. I bet his hands are about the size of Stocktons (perhaps bigger).

I think both players will see time on the court in the Tourney if we win a couple games. As mentioned several times above, it's about the matchups.

primal23
03-12-2014, 09:11 AM
Matchups is the answer. Game situation is the answer. I like Few playing the matchup game.

Edwards had 5 minutes last night. Less than one against SMC, 0 against SCU.
Barham had 13 last night. 15 against SMC, 4 against SCU.
As with Coleman, 0 last night. 9 against SMC, 8 against SCU

This is it exactly, it's match-ups. He didn't fit well into the type of game that was being played vs BYU.

demian
03-12-2014, 12:43 PM
thanks for the replies folks. I do understand the concept of the mismatch issues. I would think though that a player that is a usual sub off the bench could get at least a couple of possesions in the first half (especially when the lead was respectable in first half) to see if he can find some production and effectiveness even against the mismatches. Just maybe give a guy a chance at least. Of our core regular bench guys Dranginis, Barham, Nunez and Coleman nobody has had a game all year in which they did not play one second, and those guys all have mismatch issues (maybe not dranginis). Just seemed odd not to get one second. But from reading the posts this season from you guys apparently this is a pattern of Few that when late season and tourney time comes he really limits his bench and shrinks it. I was not aware of that until reading your guys posts on that topic this season. I guess that is the life of a bench player. stay ready I guess. Tough tho. oh well it is what it is. Good job on finishing the last two weeks strong Zags.

john montana
03-12-2014, 01:31 PM
He can't play against a zone. At all. They lay off of him by 10 feet, clog the middle, and when he drives there is a crowd since we have no spacing when he is on the floor. Up and down, man to man game he can really do great things, but against a zone he just can't help us at all offensively. I've been surprised with his defense though...a lot slower laterally than I thought he would be. I still think he can help us, but he's got to get a 15 ft jumper this off season.

nunez has more potential in my opinion...he just needs to play a lot of basketball.

SWZag
03-12-2014, 01:56 PM
Just looking at the previous games against BYU:

Game 1: GU Wins. Coleman doesn't play
Game 2: GU Loses. Coleman plays 13 minutes. Stocks had 6 TOs, which may be a reason for the minutes.
Game 3: GU Wins. Coleman doesn't play.

SteelZag
03-12-2014, 02:25 PM
Matchups?

In the 1st game against SCU, Barham basically takes all Dower's minutes and performs admirably. SCU's bigs were held to 11 pts in the first game and they scored 21 pts the last game. We needed everyone of Sam's 15 ft's and last minute heroics by David.

cjm720
03-12-2014, 02:31 PM
They will get better next season.

+1

BobZag
03-12-2014, 02:53 PM
Should merge this thread with the "Where's Barham" thread.

Mr Vulture
03-12-2014, 03:22 PM
I expect that Gerard will transfer after the season, to no fault of his own or Coach Few. I just don't think he fits our system very well and the playing time likely won't be available for him next year with the incoming class. He won't have to sit out, if he chooses to transfer, as long as he earned his degree.


I was excited about Coleman's potential earlier in the season. I'm pretty much resigned to the fact he isn't part of Few's plans going forward. Going to rot on the bench next year. Coming to GU was probably a huge mistake for Coleman.

former1dog
03-12-2014, 03:30 PM
I expect that Gerard will transfer after the season, to no fault of his own or Coach Few. I just don't think he fits our system very well and the playing time likely won't be available for him next year with the incoming class. He won't have to sit out, if he chooses to transfer, as long as he earned his degree.
Already transferred and sat out a year. The only option he would have is to go down a division or graduate and pursue a graduate degree at a school that offers a degree program not offered at GU.

SWZag
03-12-2014, 03:44 PM
Should merge this thread with the "Where's Barham" thread.

Maybe we should also create a "Where's Waldo" thread. Oh, he's playing for SMC.

Oregonzagnut
03-12-2014, 04:16 PM
Experience in Fews system is really the biggest problem for any transfer or freshman. Few's system is predicated on guys working together with specialization, chemistry and symbiosis. It is hard to come off the bench when you are behind the curve in the flow of the game and with the other cohesive starters.

Seniors who have played under Few benefit the most, and for sure they benefit when playing in the WCC. Until this year, Coleman and Nunez had played no WCC teams, Stockton had played in nearly 60 WCC games. Two 5th yr seniors is a big asset during WCC play.

Mr Vulture
03-12-2014, 04:18 PM
Your point is what? I just said the same thing...


Already transferred and sat out a year. The only option he would have is to go down a division or graduate and pursue a graduate degree at a school that offers a degree program not offered at GU.

Zagdawg
03-12-2014, 04:28 PM
One of the incoming guards may opt to redshirt (Perkins/Melson/Alberts) so that they can get ahead in school/get used to the Zag system.

We will have 3 senior guards in Pangos, Bell and Coleman along with redshirt junior Dranginis-- there may not be as many guard minutes early as expected (don't forget we also have a couple of solid walk on guards in Griffin, Roese and Triano who will be sophs with experience in the Zag system).

former1dog
03-12-2014, 04:36 PM
Your point is what? I just said the same thing...

Oops. Missed that part of your post.

Zag 77
03-12-2014, 05:43 PM
Coleman has nothing to complain about. I would imagine between 4 years at GU and Providence, both excellent academic institutions, he will hopefully have gotten a degree and be ready to enter the job market. He will have gotten something in the neighborhood of $200 k worth of tuition paid for, and maybe more with R & B added in. Compared to some of us who have kids at GU that will have some hefty educational loans to pay off, he is way ahead compared to most 21-22 year olds.

kclubfounder
03-12-2014, 05:57 PM
I'm betting Coleman is important next year.

I believe he will be much more discriminating about when to attack the basket, will be much more comfortable with the system and his teammates, and will improve defensively. If those 3 things happen, and I think every one of them will, he will be a valuable and dynamic member of next year's team.

ZagLawGrad
03-12-2014, 08:18 PM
Coleman and Nunez stand out for their strong athleticism and their utter lack of basketball acumen. I don't see either playing major minutes going forward. What's astonishing is Coleman's numbers at PC and the that Nunez was recruited by Pitino. They are high risk, medium reward guys.

Spot on.

SunDevilGolfZag
03-12-2014, 10:14 PM
Haven't heard of Coleman complaining or not being a good teammate. Playing him or not is all about matchups and situations. He can certainly help us and he might just have a big moment in the tourney. Meanwhile, ad hominem attacks on him are unwarranted, IMO

zagfan1970
03-12-2014, 10:58 PM
He has a few deficits: Can't shoot anything but layups, and then only if nobody is within 10 feet of him. Not a good free throw shooter. Not a good rebounder. Not a particularly good defender.

I guess if you give him the ball all by himself under the basket with nobody around he can probably do a nice dunk. Big whoop.

He has a hell of a lot of work to do this summer. Whomever his youth, AAU and HS coaches were should be taken out and shot for letting him get by with no basketball fundamentals.

This has to be the most unjustified post of all time! Let's check the stats from last night vs BYU in the championship game.

Stockton 1-5 from the field in FORTY minutes. Pangos 0-2 from the field in FORTY minutes??? Layups by himself? Did you miss the first 10 -15 games of the year? Coleman is 2nd on the team (and led until Dower turned it on) in points per MINUTE. You do know he averaged 13ppg as a sophomore in the BIG EAST? I don't think GU has a player on their roster who would have averaged 13pts a game in that conference. Take the Memphis game this year for example. Stockton could not get a shot off, (1/3) 2 points. Pangos (2/9) 7 points, yet Coleman managed (12 pts) on 5/11FG in limited minutes.

Here is a short consistent list of talented players Mark Few has ruined over the last 7 years. Ira Brown(if you can't remember him and think his talents were limited and all he did was dunk occasionally, he is still playing professionally in Japan. So after you watch his highlights and maybe the highlights of the Sweet 16 loss to UNC where he dominated for 5-6 minutes you may change your stance. Larry Gurganious (who eventually transferred and had a successful career at UC Riverside, still one of the best defenders and offensive rebounders to ever play at GU. Manny Arop, if you missed it, he just scored 18 vs undefeated WSU in the MVC Championship game and averaged 11pts/game while pulling down 5RB and playing great defense all year. Guy Landry Edi, he led GU in scoring the first 4 games last year, missed a power jam that would have brought the house down, instead he was pulled w/in 30 seconds and never saw meaningful PT again. And now Gerard Coleman, it is sad! Radio people, newspaper writers, opposing coaches are even baffled. Ask Jim Meehan, Toby or Moose Jaw, Tom Hudson and see what kind of answers you get.

The Kool Aid tastes great as long as you are washing down expectations.

Birddog
03-13-2014, 06:07 AM
This has to be the most unjustified post of all time! Let's check the stats from last night vs BYU in the championship game.

Stockton 1-5 from the field in FORTY minutes. Pangos 0-2 from the field in FORTY minutes??? Layups by himself? Did you miss the first 10 -15 games of the year? Coleman is 2nd on the team (and led until Dower turned it on) in points per MINUTE. You do know he averaged 13ppg as a sophomore in the BIG EAST? I don't think GU has a player on their roster who would have averaged 13pts a game in that conference. Take the Memphis game this year for example. Stockton could not get a shot off, (1/3) 2 points. Pangos (2/9) 7 points, yet Coleman managed (12 pts) on 5/11FG in limited minutes.

Here is a short consistent list of talented players Mark Few has ruined over the last 7 years. Ira Brown(if you can't remember him and think his talents were limited and all he did was dunk occasionally, he is still playing professionally in Japan. So after you watch his highlights and maybe the highlights of the Sweet 16 loss to UNC where he dominated for 5-6 minutes you may change your stance. Larry Gurganious (who eventually transferred and had a successful career at UC Riverside, still one of the best defenders and offensive rebounders to ever play at GU. Manny Arop, if you missed it, he just scored 18 vs undefeated WSU in the MVC Championship game and averaged 11pts/game while pulling down 5RB and playing great defense all year. Guy Landry Edi, he led GU in scoring the first 4 games last year, missed a power jam that would have brought the house down, instead he was pulled w/in 30 seconds and never saw meaningful PT again. And now Gerard Coleman, it is sad! Radio people, newspaper writers, opposing coaches are even baffled. Ask Jim Meehan, Toby or Moose Jaw, Tom Hudson and see what kind of answers you get.

The Kool Aid tastes great as long as you are washing down expectations.

Wow just wow! All the players in bold were very athletic but only two came close to being complete BB players, Gurganious and Arop. Arop probably caused more hair loss on the GU staff than any player ever. He constantly struggled with being in the right place offensively and defensively. He could light it up though when he was free lancing. Larry just hit a logjam as I recall after his year off. Brown and Edi were uber athletic, sky walking acrobats but that was about it. To say that Mark few ruined them is over the top in hyperbole. If you watch Coleman now, he has been stifled by the defense, mostly zone that packs the paint. Pass the Kool Aid.

wnczagfan
03-13-2014, 06:20 AM
What I see are some very athletic guys, who are still learning where they are supposed to be, and who, more often than others, dribble drive against two or three defenders. When they are stifled, rather than pass the ball out to what must be at least one or two open Zags, they go ahead and hoist a shot up. They are getting better, but there still are some lapses there. I expect them to see more playing time next year based on the improvements I have seen so far, but I can understand that Coach Few is only using them to rest others at this point. We get transfers for a reason, and one of those reasons is probably that they need some development that we are willing to give them. I wouldn't count them out. I have seen players who I wasn't expecting a lot from turn in to stars of the team (Sam Dower for one).

TexasZagFan
03-13-2014, 06:54 AM
What I see are some very athletic guys, who are still learning where they are supposed to be, and who, more often than others, dribble drive against two or three defenders. When they are stifled, rather than pass the ball out to what must be at least one or two open Zags, they go ahead and hoist a shot up. They are getting better, but there still are some lapses there. I expect them to see more playing time next year based on the improvements I have seen so far, but I can understand that Coach Few is only using them to rest others at this point. We get transfers for a reason, and one of those reasons is probably that they need some development that we are willing to give them. I wouldn't count them out. I have seen players who I wasn't expecting a lot from turn in to stars of the team (Sam Dower for one).

Case in point: the first half against BYU. The Zags put on an offensive clinic. Who was on the court? Two fifth year seniors (Sam & Dave), two juniors (Pangos & Bell), and a sophomore who has made great strides this year (Karno). Barham and Dranginis also played important minutes, but the starting five made the most impact.

On this year's team, Angel's a 3/4, while Coleman's a 2/3. IOW, we have major logjams at the 2 & 3, leaving very few situational minutes for Angel and Gerard, both new to the Gonzaga scheme. When the matchups don't favor us, the team looks awkward on offense.

I expect more minutes for Angel next year, due to Sam's departure, although most of those will likely be taken by Wiltjer.

We're fortunate to have Angel and Gerard on the team. They're both very talented, and they could give us important minutes in the next few weeks.

zagfan1970
03-13-2014, 10:49 AM
He can't play against a zone. At all. They lay off of him by 10 feet, clog the middle, and when he drives there is a crowd since we have no spacing when he is on the floor. Up and down, man to man game he can really do great things, but against a zone he just can't help us at all offensively. I've been surprised with his defense though...a lot slower laterally than I thought he would be. I still think he can help us, but he's got to get a 15 ft jumper this off season.

nunez has more potential in my opinion...he just needs to play a lot of basketball.

Against arguably THE Zone Defense, Syracuse, during his sophomore year he scored 17 points on 5/12 shooting, 7-7FT 3off RB(6 total) 2 assists, a steal and ONE turnover. In the 2nd game against the Orange he scored 11 points although he struggled from the floor 4/14 he did hit 2/4 3pointers. He played 39 minutes the first game and 35 minutes the 2nd game. The SYRACUSE lineup included- Kris Joseph, Rakeem Christmas, Fab Melo, Scoop Jardine, Brandon Triche, and a few guys on there bench- including 2 who are currently killing it in the NBA- Dion Waiters and Michael Carter Williams, as well as this years MVP C.J. Fair. Please try to argue that the Zags have played a team like that Syracuse team this year. I understand, wait I actually don't, that he doesn't start because of some loyalty, but to NOT play???? Give me a break!

Mr Vulture
03-13-2014, 11:21 AM
I don't see one person saying he was a bad teammate or attacking him. Just because someones opinion doesn't match yours doesn't mean they are wrong. I think Coleman has game, but I am not convinced it fits our system...nothing more and nothing less.


Haven't heard of Coleman complaining or not being a good teammate. Playing him or not is all about matchups and situations. He can certainly help us and he might just have a big moment in the tourney. Meanwhile, ad hominem attacks on him are unwarranted, IMO

zagfan1
03-13-2014, 12:13 PM
This is the way I see it. Coleman had one offseason to work on his jump shot and he didn't do that. He is one dimensional and has made some turnovers. At times he plays well and at other times he is unfocussed and makes mistakes. Nunez just looks lost out there. I don't know what can be done to help him because he already has the physical part. I want both to get better and work out for the team. I am just not sure that will happen. The good news is that we have great freshmen coming in.

john montana
03-13-2014, 12:27 PM
Against arguably THE Zone Defense, Syracuse, during his sophomore year he scored 17 points on 5/12 shooting, 7-7FT 3off RB(6 total) 2 assists, a steal and ONE turnover. In the 2nd game against the Orange he scored 11 points although he struggled from the floor 4/14 he did hit 2/4 3pointers. He played 39 minutes the first game and 35 minutes the 2nd game. The SYRACUSE lineup included- Kris Joseph, Rakeem Christmas, Fab Melo, Scoop Jardine, Brandon Triche, and a few guys on there bench- including 2 who are currently killing it in the NBA- Dion Waiters and Michael Carter Williams, as well as this years MVP C.J. Fair. Please try to argue that the Zags have played a team like that Syracuse team this year. I understand, wait I actually don't, that he doesn't start because of some loyalty, but to NOT play???? Give me a break!

I didn't watch those games (and I'm guessing you didn't either) but I'd venture a bet that most of his field goals came in the open court with the exception of his 3 pointers. You can read a stat sheet and it won't tell you much about what actually happened in the game. If you don't think he is a liability against a zone I'm not sure what player you are watching.

Speaking of that...do you honestly want him standing on the perimeter against a zone and looking to shoot the 3? From what I've seen the answer is no. And as much as I love his penetration, against a zone he has trouble finding those gaps. He has some serious skills, no doubt, and there have been times this year where they have been on full display for GU, but his lack of an outside shot, mediocre ball handling, and sub par defense are the reason he doesn't see more court time.

Bottom line...he is our 5th best guard/wing (Pangos, Bell, Stockton, KD are flat out better). The great thing is that even at our 5th best OVERALL wing...there are certain situations where he is ABSOLUTELY the guy that should be in the game. Just not the BYU game Tuesday night.


As for your "Few is ruining the greatest potential players in GU history!" post above...wow. I can't even begin to buy into that one. Ira Brown? Manny Arop (who frequently had to be physically pulled into the right spot on defense by other players...as in they had to grab his jersey to get him where he needed to be)? Great kids all...zags to the end but I don't see them as ruined players.

zagfan1970
03-13-2014, 12:41 PM
I don't see one person saying he was a bad teammate or attacking him. Just because someones opinion doesn't match yours doesn't mean they are wrong. I think Coleman has game, but I am not convinced it fits our system...nothing more and nothing less.

It is just a long list of players who "don't fit the system" that concerns me. Coleman, Nunez, Arop, Edi, Ira Brown, Larry Gurganious. Isn't it the coach who brings these players in? Doesn't he know what he is getting? Both Coleman and Nunez had red-shirt years and almost a whole year, so the whole learning the system is a tireless arguement. Eventually you have to wonder either why he is bringing them in or why he can't teach them.

zagfan1970
03-13-2014, 12:50 PM
I didn't watch those games (and I'm guessing you didn't either) but I'd venture a bet that most of his field goals came in the open court with the exception of his 3 pointers. You can read a stat sheet and it won't tell you much about what actually happened in the game. If you don't think he is a liability against a zone I'm not sure what player you are watching.

Speaking of that...do you honestly want him standing on the perimeter against a zone and looking to shoot the 3? From what I've seen the answer is no. And as much as I love his penetration, against a zone he has trouble finding those gaps. He has some serious skills, no doubt, and there have been times this year where they have been on full display for GU, but his lack of an outside shot, mediocre ball handling, and sub par defense are the reason he doesn't see more court time.

Bottom line...he is our 5th best guard/wing (Pangos, Bell, Stockton, KD are flat out better). The great thing is that even at our 5th best OVERALL wing...there are certain situations where he is ABSOLUTELY the guy that should be in the game. Just not the BYU game Tuesday night.


As for your "Few is ruining the greatest potential players in GU history!" post above...wow. I can't even begin to buy into that one. Ira Brown? Manny Arop (who frequently had to be physically pulled into the right spot on defense by other players...as in they had to grab his jersey to get him where he needed to be)? Great kids all...zags to the end but I don't see them as ruined players.

Dranginis, Stockton, and Pangos have all had moments where they drive into the lane out of control and even as Few admitted "throw up a bunch of runners," just as many times as I have seen DS make highlight steals, I have witnessed him gambling on D and running out late as his guy hits a 3 or a physical guard getting into and simply shooting over the top.

As far as watching Gerard Coleman vs. Syracuse. Yes, I did watch those games as my good friend is a huge Syracuse fan. There are youtube highlights of the games as well as the WV game where he scores 30 points.

john montana
03-13-2014, 01:21 PM
Dranginis, Stockton, and Pangos have all had moments where they drive into the lane out of control and even as Few admitted "throw up a bunch of runners," just as many times as I have seen DS make highlight steals, I have witnessed him gambling on D and running out late as his guy hits a 3 or a physical guard getting into and simply shooting over the top.

As far as watching Gerard Coleman vs. Syracuse. Yes, I did watch those games as my good friend is a huge Syracuse fan. There are youtube highlights of the games as well as the WV game where he scores 30 points.

Again...do you want to see Coleman standing on the perimeter looking to shoot the 3 against a zone? Do you want him driving into a SET Defense? Honest question...I think the answer to both of those is no. What you want (and what all of his WV highlights probably show, and how he probably scored 17 points on 5/12 shooting against the cuse) is Coleman in the open floor, or against a shifting/broken down defense. Kid can get to the rim in those situations better than anyone we have.

But he isn't a better overall player than Stocks, Bell, Pangos, or KD. He just isn't.

I 100% think he can help us and I hope he has a big moment in the NCAA tourny for us (same for Nunez) but I just don't see the call for him to start or be a guy that plays major minutes. I want him on the team, and hope he gets a jumper this summer and comes back as an absolute match up nightmare.

zag944
03-13-2014, 01:26 PM
For all the shots Coleman takes that people here deem bad, he makes them at an incredibly high percentage, especially given that his range is so short and these shots are usually contested in traffic. Further, he has a knack for grabbing his own rebounds and drawing fouls that I really like.

While he may be limited in a lot of other areas, I would have liked to see him deployed a little more often and with a considerably longer leash in some of those games when we were struggling on offense. Right now though, when Bell is back to normal, Barham is in a hot streak, Stockton is playing more consistently, and KD continues to do a little bit of everything, I don't think his skill set will add as much to the table.

zagfan1970
03-13-2014, 02:10 PM
Again...do you want to see Coleman standing on the perimeter looking to shoot the 3 against a zone? Do you want him driving into a SET Defense? Honest question...I think the answer to both of those is no. What you want (and what all of his WV highlights probably show, and how he probably scored 17 points on 5/12 shooting against the cuse) is Coleman in the open floor, or against a shifting/broken down defense. Kid can get to the rim in those situations better than anyone we have.

But he isn't a better overall player than Stocks, Bell, Pangos, or KD. He just isn't.


I 100% think he can help us and I hope he has a big moment in the NCAA tourny for us (same for Nunez) but I just don't see the call for him to start or be a guy that plays major minutes. I want him on the team, and hope he gets a jumper this summer and comes back as an absolute match up nightmare.

Do I want to see him standing on the perimeter shooting 3's ? NO, but he did hit one this year, which I think opens up his game. He has only taken 8 this year, hardly a fair sample size, but I also cringe when Stockton pulls the trigger from long range as he shoots around 25%, which is what Coleman shot at Providence. The more 3's DS takes the lower his %. If Coleman is taking bad shots, why is he shooting 49% and DS 43%, KP 43%, and GBJ 47% are all shooting lower? Those that claim GC is a defensive liability I can see a little. But all the talk of GBJ or DS being great defenders is a little over zealous. Why do players like Johnny Dee, or Tyler Hawes or Brownridge still go off? It's not like those guys would have put up 50 if GC was guarding them.

Zag4Hire
03-13-2014, 02:21 PM
Do I want to see him standing on the perimeter shooting 3's ? NO, but he did hit one this year, which I think opens up his game. He has only taken 8 this year, hardly a fair sample size, but I also cringe when Stockton pulls the trigger from long range as he shoots around 25%, which is what Coleman shot at Providence. The more 3's DS takes the lower his %. If Coleman is taking bad shots, why is he shooting 49% and DS 43%, KP 43%, and GBJ 47% are all shooting lower? Those that claim GC is a defensive liability I can see a little. But all the talk of GBJ or DS being great defenders is a little over zealous. Why do players like Johnny Dee, or Tyler Hawes or Brownridge still go off? It's not like those guys would have put up 50 if GC was guarding them.

Your second sentence made me chuckle but I did think when they had a sizable lead, if you are going to put in Nunez, you can get Coleman some minutes (especially with the foul trouble unfairly mounting across the board for GU). I felt like Stocks was very disciplined with not popping a jumper unlike The Chucker. Stocks did force the ball early a few times but I felt like the Zags wanted to get the pace going strong.

john montana
03-13-2014, 02:50 PM
Do I want to see him standing on the perimeter shooting 3's ? NO, but he did hit one this year, which I think opens up his game. He has only taken 8 this year, hardly a fair sample size, but I also cringe when Stockton pulls the trigger from long range as he shoots around 25%, which is what Coleman shot at Providence. The more 3's DS takes the lower his %. If Coleman is taking bad shots, why is he shooting 49% and DS 43%, KP 43%, and GBJ 47% are all shooting lower? Those that claim GC is a defensive liability I can see a little. But all the talk of GBJ or DS being great defenders is a little over zealous. Why do players like Johnny Dee, or Tyler Hawes or Brownridge still go off? It's not like those guys would have put up 50 if GC was guarding them.

My point since the very first word I typed in this thread is that it is tough to play him against a zone because he can't shoot the three (or a 15 foot pullup). Do you think he is some secretly unbelievable 3 point shooter who has somehow only taken 8 threes this year? Or is it more likely that he knows he isn't going to make enough to warrant shooting them? I never once said Coleman takes bad shots...though occasionally he does (as do all players.) Overall, I think Coleman seems to understand what he does well, and what he doesn't do well...he attacks in the open floor and when the defense is scrambling. Great option for us to have...but as I said in my first post: Why no minutes against BYU? Because you can't play him against a zone at all. He just stifles the offense in a slow paced half court zone type of game. There have been, and will continue to be MANY valuable minutes and moments for Coleman in a zag uni, but at this point, with his current skillset, his play time is 100% dependent on game flow and situation. You can throw a guy like KD on the floor anytime, but there are plenty of times when you simply can't play a guy like Coleman.

By the way...I 100% thing Hawes would have torched GC. GC doesn't fight through screens well, turns his head and is susceptible to back cuts, and frequently loses track of his man. A guy like Hawes will absolutely take advantage of those things as he gets most of his points off of that type of action.

Look, GC has major tools...but he needs major work in the offseason. He is going to have a big moment for us in the Tourny, and if he gets in the gym and really works this summer he could be a big piece for us next year. I just don't see him as anything better than our 5th best overall wing/guard right now.

Mr Vulture
03-13-2014, 03:20 PM
I would disagree on both accounts in regards to Nunez. I do think that he could have a role within this system and view him as a freshman since he played virtually no minutes at Louisville before he transferred. He was a midyear transfer last year so he didn't participate in any practices before mid December and basically had to try to acclimate while a big season was taking place. He has only had one summer, without coaches, and fall practice to learn and fit the system. Even then, he couldn't play until the majority of the OOC was complete. There are two more years for him to grow as a player within the program.

In regards to Edi and Brown, they were never expected to be more than role players and they completed their eligibility at GU while filling roles. Manny Arop and Gurganious were recruited freshmen that ended up transferring so I don't really lump them into the same situation as Coleman as they weren't developed players like Coleman. It's not that I am saying Coleman doesn't work, or isn't a good teammate. His game is wildly inconsistent, especially considering this is his third year of playing D1 basketball, and that is why he gets sporadic playing time.


It is just a long list of players who "don't fit the system" that concerns me. Coleman, Nunez, Arop, Edi, Ira Brown, Larry Gurganious. Isn't it the coach who brings these players in? Doesn't he know what he is getting? Both Coleman and Nunez had red-shirt years and almost a whole year, so the whole learning the system is a tireless arguement. Eventually you have to wonder either why he is bringing them in or why he can't teach them.

zagfan1970
03-13-2014, 03:31 PM
My point was he hasn't struggled against zone D. BYU has a very hard time guarding PERIOD, that's why they gave up 100 points to Oregon and Stanford. They do not guard dribble penetration. Neither Stockton are lights out from long range, but they only need to hit 25% to open up drives. He has only taken 8 3's THIS year, but at Providence he shot a few more. BYU also plays at a fast up and down the floor pace, just as the announcers mentioned, they don't really shoot the 3 well and score by simply playing a fast paced game and getting more possessions. (The type game Coleman thrives in). Even Few said at the beginning of the year (when he was actually playing Coleman as the first guy off the bench) "it doesn't matter if the defense sags off he still gets to the rim, he has a knack for that, it just gives him a head start"

I do agree he seems slow to get through screens on D and seems to "coast" a bit at times, but if he brought the defensive intensity that he brought vs Portland during our last "rally" when he was all over the place I would love that!

cjm720
03-13-2014, 03:42 PM
It is just a long list of players who "don't fit the system" that concerns me. Coleman, Nunez, Arop, Edi, Ira Brown, Larry Gurganious. Isn't it the coach who brings these players in? Doesn't he know what he is getting? Both Coleman and Nunez had red-shirt years and almost a whole year, so the whole learning the system is a tireless arguement. Eventually you have to wonder either why he is bringing them in or why he can't teach them.

Especially after the run with Ammo, we started recruiting at a higher level. We started recruiting more BCS level-type athletes or at least tried to (Meech comes to mind). Few has had a hard time finding those athletes that also have the ability to thrive in his system. It's been a problem, but it's a good one to have IMO. #trendingup

zagfan1970
03-13-2014, 03:46 PM
I would disagree on both accounts in regards to Nunez. I do think that he could have a role within this system and view him as a freshman since he played virtually no minutes at Louisville before he transferred. He was a midyear transfer last year so he didn't participate in any practices before mid December and basically had to try to acclimate while a big season was taking place. He has only had one summer, without coaches, and fall practice to learn and fit the system. Even then, he couldn't play until the majority of the OOC was complete. There are two more years for him to grow as a player within the program.

In regards to Edi and Brown, they were never expected to be more than role players and they completed their eligibility at GU while filling roles. Manny Arop and Gurganious were recruited freshmen that ended up transferring so I don't really lump them into the same situation as Coleman as they weren't developed players like Coleman. It's not that I am saying Coleman doesn't work, or isn't a good teammate. His game is wildly inconsistent, especially considering this is his third year of playing D1 basketball, and that is why he gets sporadic playing time.


One of those players is a close friend of mine, so I know what he was promised during recruiting and what he actually got. His minutes have been inconsistent, so consequently so has his play. It is hard to get into any rythym when you don't even know if you're going to get in the game. The long-hard practices start to wear on you mentally when you are not rewarded. Watch mannerisms during games. Watch the "golf clap" reactions vs. the role players who realize the may not see action until the lead is 30 points with 1:25 left. This kid was getting 35-40 minutes a game in The Big East, do you honestly think he is happy? Arop was developed and spent 2 years here and scored 16 vs Noptre Dame then didn't get in against St Mary's. Oliver Pierce- "coaches decision" Manny Arop was expected to contribute a LOT especially after Bol Kong fizzled. LG got some nice PT as a frosh when Erroll Knight was hurt, then a little more when Heytvelt went down, then he red-shirted, 3rd year at GU was stuck behind Bouldin and decided to leave. The difference between Brown and Edi vs Arop and LG is the latter still had a chance to transfer and both were successful elsewhere.

john montana
03-13-2014, 06:21 PM
Not trying to be offensive, but it sort of sounds like you have an agenda and want to fit an argument to it in the hopes of some support. Personally, I just don't see it. I like Coleman a lot, but think he has played about what he should based on what I have seen. Ditto for manny, brown and edi. Lg could have stayed, but bouldin was a stud...tough to get that guys minutes. I don't see few ruining any of those guys, nor Nunez and Coleman. They have the opportunity and from the cheap seats where I sit (which is a long way from the court mind you) it seems painfully clear what they both need to do in order to earn major minutes. I sure as heck hope they put in the work because we could use em...talented kids and from what I see good teammates.

Vanzagger
03-13-2014, 07:25 PM
Everyone of our scholy guys are BCS recruits. We have Big East and ACC guys sitting on our bench. We have not made the 2nd Weekend in 3 years. Last time it took a Frosh grabbing the ball and bailing us out.

I know the bar is not set high. I just have a hard time with....."we don't have the talent"

Now I would like to thank Tubby Smith for letting Sam fall in our lap. If Sam shoots 82% FT against Santa Clara we are in the NIT

seacatfan
03-13-2014, 07:59 PM
Yeah, a while ago I started a thread about athletic wing guys struggling at GU. I've certainly noticed it and it definitely bothers me. Has happened too many times to be a coincidence, seems like a trend. For just about forever now the mantra has been that GU needs to get more athletic to take the next step. But when they get the athletes they don't make much of an impact, don't seem to fit the style. Catch 22 I guess.

I am also perplexed that Coleman went from being a better than average player in the Big East, full of future NBA draft choices and many players that are exponentially better than anyone playing in the WCC, yet now that he's in the WCC he doesn't know how to play basketball and he can't hardly get off the bench? Something about that does not make sense. Other than he "doesn't fit the system," which is why as I said earlier I've already given up on Coleman having a major impact at GU, he's just not going to get the minutes to accomplish much.

The team has come together down the stretch and is playing well. I've stopped complaining about the bench rotation or how many minutes players are getting. Few is coaching his style of play, he's playing the guys he feels comfortable playing, and it's working.