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seacatfan
02-27-2014, 08:15 PM
Well, I guess Few showed some willingness to try something different tonight. I think EVERYBODY got in during the 1st half. Definitely saw some combinations I've never seen before. I couldn't make any sense of the substitution pattern. Dower scored 2 buckets immediately but was pulled 2 minutes into the game, before he had foul trouble. Sat for 3 minutes or so. Lots of guys came in for a minute or less and then subbed out again. Just...strange. Zags won the game, so that was good. Just a weird, disjointed game. Don't know what else to take away from this one. Seems like it was more a case of Pacific being bad than Gonzaga being good. Who here EVER thought they would see a lineup of Pangos, Bell, Stockton, Dranginis and Meikle on the floor together?

zag67
02-27-2014, 08:20 PM
Hopefully they will be rested for Saturday and one more win. I think Dower was pulled about a minute after be got his first foul. Then came in to rest PK, before both of them got 2 fouls. Also when Barham got the early fouls, Few had to be creative.

kclubfounder
02-27-2014, 08:24 PM
I thought perhaps a game could be played well enough that Few's substitution patterns would not be a point of contention.

Wrong.

Zagdawg
02-27-2014, 08:28 PM
They will find something to complain about-- I thought it was going to be Fews tie color........wait he didn't wear a tie.......that is something to complain about.

WallaWallaZag
02-27-2014, 08:28 PM
I thought perhaps a game could be played well enough that Few's substitution patterns would not be a point of contention.

Wrong.

i didn't read too much criticism into the op...it was more a comment on the un-few like substitution patterns...few tends to be more flexible and open to creativity when his team has a decent lead.

Zagdawg
02-27-2014, 08:30 PM
Or when key players are in foul trouble.

Oregonzagnut
02-27-2014, 08:31 PM
I liked the bench activity and the spread out minutes. But what mattered most was the fire and the simple reality that we are not at-large or automatic anything until we win this game.

We still had serious foul trouble but all the guys got involved and I loved this game. Few did great like he always does in wins. :)

The OP can be received in any way depending on how you align your opinion on this board towards critiquing Few's starting 5 and utilization of the bench. I think if anything, Few did deliberately change some things, and it worked out in a road win. Take that same passion, sense of surprise, and fresh legs and I think we beat St MArys by 20.

Calling seacatfans comments backhanded is true but I also thought the substitutions were "Unique". The game was not disjointed, but creative in a way that was just what this team needs to break out of the same old rut.

kclubfounder
02-27-2014, 08:38 PM
i didn't read too much criticism into the op...it was more a comment on the un-few like substitution patterns...few tends to be more flexible and open to creativity when his team has a decent lead.

Because of your comment I reread the OP. Any compliments about the substitution pattern were backhanded.

seacatfan
02-27-2014, 08:43 PM
Yeah, well the thought police here are just as active as the complainers. I wasn't complaining, I was pointing out that Few radically changed his sub pattern tonight. After there has been endless talk this week about the substitution pattern and number of minutes various players are getting.

kclubfounder
02-27-2014, 08:57 PM
Yeah, well the thought police here are just as active as the complainers. I wasn't complaining, I was pointing out that Few radically changed his sub pattern tonight. After there has been endless talk this week about the substitution pattern and number of minutes various players are getting.

You couldn't make any sense of the substitution pattern. You thought it was a weird, disjointed game where we won because Pacific played bad as opposed to Gonzaga playing well. Dower scores a couple buckets and is pulled right away before being in foul trouble. Lots of guys come in for only a minute or less.

Hey, if you aren't complaining about the substitution pattern then I stand corrected.

Zagdawg
02-27-2014, 08:59 PM
Few did try a number of unusual lineups in an effort to identify the most effective group to put on the floor and it allowed us to pull away even with both of our starting bigs in foul trouble.

I may have mistaken the comments in a bit more of a negative light from someone who said they watched the game on and off----which makes it more difficult to see the substitution pattern that is developing due to foul trouble, players who are playing better in the flow of the offense together etc.

On a positive note--it allowed us to see how a bunch of our guys looked and gave some other players some extra rest to get ready for the St Marys game.

Mantua
02-27-2014, 09:08 PM
For whatever reason the substitutions worked! It was an interesting game to watch. The chemistry was there tonight.

Rio Runner
02-27-2014, 09:22 PM
I did enjoy the creative lineups, some of which were dictated by foul troubles. The refs called this one tight.

I was at the game. A couple things about the University of Pacific:

1) The city of Stockton is awful. (My apologies to anyone who is from Stockton.) I hope the team gets out of there safely.
2) The Spanos Center is a nice facility.
3) The student section was pretty tame. It was a big crowd for a Tigers game, but there were still plenty of empty seats.

MTZag03
02-27-2014, 09:49 PM
I liked what the OP had to say. Everyone should remember we're all going for GU here and relax. Gonz won the game and we should be happy. So someone posted something original that might sound critical of MF, so what?

Timspo14
02-27-2014, 10:13 PM
Did not like. Didn't care for the refereeing, didn't care for the sloppy passing, and didn't care for the intensity. We won by 20(ish) which was astonishing given the way Pacific fought back to open the game. We shot well, for the most part, but defense was meh and offense was the same old game plan that hasn't worked in recent games.

Foul trouble was an issue when it shouldn't have been (thank you zebras) and that clearly dictated the play from early on, however, I did not see anything that made me think we could keep up with even the mediocre-est teams in the larger conferences tonight. see: penn stat, arkansas (yes, I know we beat them), memphis (yes, they lost tonight).

Generally, I'm about as 'glass half-full' as they come, but tonight was nothing special in my eyes and it was more a matter of Pacific simply being out-talented. Seriously, it looked like a pick-up game for several stretches. I don't have an answer, solution, anecdote, that would make me feel better about this game despite what amounted to a blowout... I just saw slop from all 4 corners. Even Pangos did not look like the player we know we have, in spite of an 18 point effort and what *may* have amounted to a decent statline.

My opinion from this game (SOLELY) was one of 'meh'. That being said, we're 2014 WCC champs and have some time before the tourney to get healthy, improve new/old schemes, and prepare to be the underdogs going forward. Very excited we're not the "overrrated" (not MY words) mid-major we've been in the past.

Zagsker
02-27-2014, 10:18 PM
Barham is on fire, gets his 4th foul with 8 to go and we are up 20...he gets pulled? Leave him in and step on their throat, he fouls out we are still up big

2-3 minutes left we are up BIG and Dower is subbed back in?

Love the win but Few sub patterns have little rhyme or reason

Oregonzagnut
02-27-2014, 10:56 PM
Love the win but Few sub patterns have little rhyme or reason

I did not see it like that. IMO, he did try some new things and I hope that rhyme or reason was deliberate to confuse Pacific just as much as anyone else. By now we have to assume that every WCC team knows our 7 man rotation and expects it. Also now he knows he can trust some of the other obscure options in a pinch. If he can get that trust in Meikle and Edwards, then I would hope Coleman and Nunez can. Nunez 3 minutes??? coleman 9? Weird. Bordering on disturbing. And that statement has nothing to do with a win or a loss.

I agree with our assessment of pulling Dower. Too soon. but hey, Few is protective.

This game was a defensive success because despite the win margin, it was not our best offensive game. Average at best. DS goes 0-5. Meikle gets 8 minutes and Nunez gets 3? Really?

Still, I don't know what to make of these 2 stat lines. I know stat lines can be deceiving but Colemans numbers for 40 minutes are pretty strong. What am I missing? Seriously. We can point to his roland or +/- but those numbers are also dependant on other guys too and Colemans minutes are too low to be that indicative of his efficiency. Coleman is never allowed to get in a zone or feel out his opponents to defend them.

Gonzaga Min FG 3 FT O D TR A TO St Bl F Pts

David Stockton 29 0-5 0-2 4-4 0 4 4 5 2 3 1 2 4
Gerard Coleman 9 1-4 0-0 0-2 1 2 3 4 1 1 1 0 2

Zagsker
02-27-2014, 11:31 PM
I did not see it like that. IMO, he did try some new things and I hope that rhyme or reason was deliberate to confuse Pacific just as much as anyone else. By now we have to assume that every WCC team knows our 7 man rotation and expects it. Also now he knows he can trust some of the other obscure options in a pinch. If he can get that trust in Meikle and Edwards, then I would hope Coleman and Nunez can. Nunez 3 minutes??? coleman 9? Weird. Bordering on disturbing. And that statement has nothing to do with a win or a loss.

I agree with our assessment of pulling Dower. Too soon. but hey, Few is protective.

This game was a defensive success because despite the win margin, it was not our best offensive game. Average at best. DS goes 0-5. Meikle gets 8 minutes and Nunez gets 3? Really?

Still, I don't know what to make of these 2 stat lines. I know stat lines can be deceiving but Colemans numbers for 40 minutes are pretty strong. What am I missing? Seriously. We can point to his roland or +/- but those numbers are also dependant on other guys too and Colemans minutes are too low to be that indicative of his efficiency. Coleman is never allowed to get in a zone or feel out his opponents to defend them.

Gonzaga Min FG 3 FT O D TR A TO St Bl F Pts

David Stockton 29 0-5 0-2 4-4 0 4 4 5 2 3 1 2 4
Gerard Coleman 9 1-4 0-0 0-2 1 2 3 4 1 1 1 0 2

Outside of Edwards and Mielke playing extended minutes in the first half I did not see any difference in our substitutions. Edwards and Mielke had to see the floor due to the quick foul trouble of both bigs.

In regards to GC and DS...I COMPLETELY agree that Coleman is given very little opportunity to get into a groove...there was a moment in the 2nd half where it was Pangos, Bell, Coleman and I thought "yeah, that's good"

Zagsker
02-27-2014, 11:35 PM
...and just because Iam in this mood: Dower, would you please stop frowning/look bewildered after every foul you get called on

:)

Zag79
02-28-2014, 01:40 AM
...and just because Iam in this mood: Dower, would you please stop frowning/look bewildered after every foul you get called on

:)

Yeah, and add a stomp or flail your arms ala Pendo to make it really count!

Birddog
02-28-2014, 03:43 AM
In regards to GC and DS...I COMPLETELY agree that Coleman is given very little opportunity to get into a groove.
Few let Coleman stay in the game in the first half despite at least three and maybe it was four terrible drives into a pcked lane.I thought he gave him some leeway. OTOH, GC looked like a parking meter in the 2nd half as he was collecrting those shiny dimes at least three of which were beautimous to Barham. He adjusted nicely in the 2nd. JMO

wnczagfan
02-28-2014, 05:29 AM
For whatever reason the substitutions worked! It was an interesting game to watch. The chemistry was there tonight.

+1

Glad to see Coach Few mixing it up a little bit. It can only help us prepare for the postseason giving more players experience, and it keeps the other team in a situation where they are having to adapt to new styles constantly, rather than just seeing the same guys and the same pattern. A lot of people have been wanting Coach Few to try something new with regards to substitutions, and well, here it is! Bravo!

ZagMan in Philly
02-28-2014, 06:01 AM
[QUOTE=Zagsker;991600]Barham is on fire, gets his 4th foul with 8 to go and we are up 20...he gets pulled? Leave him in and step on their throat, he fouls out we are still up big

Barham reminds me of R. Frahm, such a good shooter. Perhaps Barham can do what Frahm did with the Elite 8 team.
Keep shooting Barham.

Oregonzagnut
02-28-2014, 06:03 AM
Stockton takes his shots, Coleman takes his shots.

Stockton went 0-5, Coleman went 1-4. Is the issue really poor shot selection or is it just not making the shots. Look at the rest of Colemans 9 minutes stat line compared to DS's 29 minute.

Imagine what 18 minutes for Coleman would've looked like.

jazzdelmar
02-28-2014, 06:09 AM
Stockton takes his shots, Coleman takes his shots.

Stockton went 0-5, Coleman went 1-4. Is the issue really poor shot selection or is it just not making the shots. Look at the rest of Colemans 9 minutes stat line compared to DS's 29 minute.

Imagine what 18 minutes for Coleman would've looked like.

Give it up, OZN, only a couple games to go.

Ekrub
02-28-2014, 06:43 AM
Coleman took advantage of that defense collapsing on him in the second half by kicking it back to barham twice and finding him cutting across the baseline. If he keeps doing that it will keep defenders honest. This will help him offensively in the long run. He also desperately needs to work on his three point shot and FTs.

Birddog
02-28-2014, 06:48 AM
Coleman took advantage of that defense collapsing on him in the second half by kicking it back to barham twice and finding him cutting across the baseline. If he keeps doing that it will keep defenders honest. This will help him offensively in the long run. He also desperately needs to work on his three point shot and FTs.
+1
Three point hell, how about a midrange jumper. He has the hops. If he keeps dealing out assists, he'll get more PT.

vandalzag
02-28-2014, 07:15 AM
I did not see it like that. IMO, he did try some new things and I hope that rhyme or reason was deliberate to confuse Pacific just as much as anyone else. By now we have to assume that every WCC team knows our 7 man rotation and expects it. Also now he knows he can trust some of the other obscure options in a pinch. If he can get that trust in Meikle and Edwards, then I would hope Coleman and Nunez can. Nunez 3 minutes??? coleman 9? Weird. Bordering on disturbing. And that statement has nothing to do with a win or a loss.

I agree with our assessment of pulling Dower. Too soon. but hey, Few is protective.

This game was a defensive success because despite the win margin, it was not our best offensive game. Average at best. DS goes 0-5. Meikle gets 8 minutes and Nunez gets 3? Really?

Still, I don't know what to make of these 2 stat lines. I know stat lines can be deceiving but Colemans numbers for 40 minutes are pretty strong. What am I missing? Seriously. We can point to his roland or +/- but those numbers are also dependant on other guys too and Colemans minutes are too low to be that indicative of his efficiency. Coleman is never allowed to get in a zone or feel out his opponents to defend them.

Gonzaga Min FG 3 FT O D TR A TO St Bl F Pts

David Stockton 29 0-5 0-2 4-4 0 4 4 5 2 3 1 2 4
Gerard Coleman 9 1-4 0-0 0-2 1 2 3 4 1 1 1 0 2

The pulling of Dower was odd, really have not seen him give somebody the hook with 1 foul. He did bring Coleman in earlier than normal. But first half Coleman not good. 2nd half Coleman was good. I think he got the hook for watching the kid take the 3 in the corner as opposed to trying to close out but do not not know since I do not read minds. Stockton's play at the point of the zone was why he was in there. 3 steals plus causing at least 2 or 3 additional turnovers(also he only had 1 to the double dribble to was terrible), he drew fouls and hit his Ft's, kind of hard to argue why he was playing more the Coleman, beside the fact that they play different positions. Coleman also let his guy drive right by him 2 or 3 times in the first half (he did block 1). 2 of his 3 shots in the first half were terrible. Going 1 v 2 or 3 early in the shot clock is as bad as a turnover. 2nd half he drove and when the D showed he pulled up and passed for buckets. Play like that and the team wins. The problem with Coleman is that there is no degree of difficulty for shots, they all count the same so there is no reward for going 1 on 3 and missing. There is a place for that shot, it is when the there is less than 10 seconds left on the shot clock and something has to happen. If you look at the the play by play most of the DS shot were taken late in the clock, after running the offense. GC's shots were taken in the 15-18 second range, without giving the offense a chance to work.

cjm720
02-28-2014, 07:31 AM
Meikle getting more time than Nunez is very telling.

Coleman turns the ball over at a very high clip. I love how he changes up the offense and brings energy, and good/improved vision, but he's a 8-12 mpg player IMO. I wish he could have developed into a 25+ mpg player tho.

bballbeachbum
02-28-2014, 07:34 AM
interesting sub to me last night was David to the bench after the first 3+ minutes. He had 2 assists, 1 rebound, 1 steal and one block up to that point and one missed layup after attacking the rim. Zags were up 6-0 then to the bench.

Pacific then proceeds to make their run to get back into it over the course of the next rotations over the next 6+ minutes while the Zags only score 7 points in the span. When he returns he starts with a defensive rebound, next possession he assists Drew on a 3, next possession he hits 2 FTs and the Zags go on their own little run. Agree with Vandal that David's play at the point was key last night

considering the way the whistles blew to force Few's hand plenty, seemed like the players responded well. All that said, GC was in attack mode and made plays, great to see and believe his continued growth will keep showing up when the matchups are right.

Pacific has no shot blocker or paint presence and the Zags attacked that void all game in many ways as a group with whoever was on the floor last night

DADoZAG
02-28-2014, 08:54 AM
+1
Three point hell, how about a midrange jumper. He has the hops. If he keeps dealing out assists, he'll get more PT.

Agreed, pull up at the elbow would help him a ton.

And there's no doubt he's still trying to do too much. That said, on at least one occasion he drove the lane and looked for the baseline pass to the corner, but Kevin wasn't there (KP started toward the corner then went back to toward the top).

I'm not excusing Coleman's 3 on 1 drives he too often takes, but sometimes the end result could be different if his peeps were moving to the open areas. He's got to figure out how to stay on the floor, and his second half showed what happens when he doesn't push it too hard.

Thought KP played great and thought his first half took the air out of Pacific.

Wish I could remember which poster mentioned pace the other day, but we saw a pace last night that fits this team. The ZAGS need to push the pace for a full 40.

Also thought there was plenty of nice zone D played when Sam wasn't on the floor. If Sam could play D the way he plays O, he'd be an All American.

Congratulations to all the ZAGS, pro and amateur, for winning the league.

Go ZAGS!

hooter73
02-28-2014, 08:59 AM
Im happy that Edwards and Mielke got some extended play. They didnt exactly make hay as far as stats go with their time but the team as a whole extended the lead with those two on the floor. I think it was good to see them play for a few reasons. Their lack of stats shows them, the coaches and the fans that they are still raw freshmen. It gives them game film to look at to make adjustments but more importantly it gives them game experience. Quite honestly I wonder if Luke might have been on the court as a little way to appease his lack of overall playing time maybe causing him to think about looking at other programs. He gets a good 8 minute (i think) run and sees that he might not be ready for 15 minutes a game yet. That self realization is important but also knowing that the coaches will give you the chance to get that self realization and not just not play you is important to a player.

Nunez is still young and is still learning. He'll get there. ON the other hand if Coleman doesnt make some huge strides in his game over the summer I think we are going to see Carter 2.0 next year.

Vanzagger
02-28-2014, 12:13 PM
Larry Bird was asked what he thought of his league leading Pacers?...."I think we dribble too much"


If Stockton is up top pounding the air out of the ball, it's no wonder we get too deep into the clock. I will take easy offense every time.

seacatfan
02-28-2014, 01:58 PM
Sorry for coming off as negative in this thread. A win is always a good thing. Winning a conference title outright is also a good thing. Now there's no worry about BYU catching up to them, so they can concentrate on beating their bitter rival and bolstering their Tourney resume against SMC.

wnczagfan
02-28-2014, 02:26 PM
interesting sub to me last night was David to the bench after the first 3+ minutes. He had 2 assists, 1 rebound, 1 steal and one block up to that point and one missed layup after attacking the rim. Zags were up 6-0 then to the bench.

Pacific then proceeds to make their run to get back into it over the course of the next rotations over the next 6+ minutes while the Zags only score 7 points in the span. When he returns he starts with a defensive rebound, next possession he assists Drew on a 3, next possession he hits 2 FTs and the Zags go on their own little run. Agree with Vandal that David's play at the point was key last night

considering the way the whistles blew to force Few's hand plenty, seemed like the players responded well. All that said, GC was in attack mode and made plays, great to see and believe his continued growth will keep showing up when the matchups are right.

Pacific has no shot blocker or paint presence and the Zags attacked that void all game in many ways as a group with whoever was on the floor last night

+1

That's the way I saw it, except for some reason I thought we were up 8-0 when he went out. But I was wondering why Few took him out...the only thing I could figure was David was tired from doing so much! I really believe that he set the tone for how we approached the game. I also notice how stagnant we oftentimes are when he is not in the game. I would worry about David not being here next year and how it will affect us (his contributions are very under appreciated and underrated by some, but very clear to me), except that I am noticing that Kyle is getting better each game at doing the kinds of things David does that make us successful.

Zag 77
02-28-2014, 03:50 PM
Tommy Lloyd said on the radio postgame that Edwards was gassed after running up and down the court and needed a break so they put in Meikle.

Zagsker
02-28-2014, 06:23 PM
If Stockton is up top pounding the air out of the ball, it's no wonder we get too deep into the clock. I will take easy offense every time.


Yes!!!...would be an interesting tidbit to track

NumberCruncher
02-28-2014, 06:58 PM
The team averages 17.0 seconds per offensive possession: efficiency = 1.09 points per possession.
With Stockton in, the average time goes up to 17.3 seconds with an efficiency of 1.10.
With Coleman in ,the average time drops to 15.9 seconds with an efficiency of 1.02.

Zagsker
02-28-2014, 06:59 PM
The team averages 17.0 seconds per offensive possession: efficiency = 1.09 points per possession.
With Stockton in, the average time goes up to 17.3 seconds with an efficiency of 1.10.
With Coleman in ,the average time drops to 15.9 seconds with an efficiency of 1.02.

Well...there's that

What number am I thinking of?

Zagsker
02-28-2014, 08:26 PM
The team averages 17.0 seconds per offensive possession: efficiency = 1.09 points per possession.
With Stockton in, the average time goes up to 17.3 seconds with an efficiency of 1.10.
With Coleman in ,the average time drops to 15.9 seconds with an efficiency of 1.02.

Over the course of a game what would be the average ppg with all 3 of those?

Hokis
02-28-2014, 08:56 PM
Lordy Lordy Lordy.



The police here are really pretending that Few didn't completely change up his sub pattern?


The first thing I noticed was that KD wasn't the first one coming off the bench.. Which made me very happy..


Also, foul trouble as an excuse??? Nah the foul trouble starts in the 2ND HALF, just incase GUPD didn't know

ZagaZags
02-28-2014, 11:39 PM
Lordy Lordy Lordy.



The police here are really pretending that Few didn't completely change up his sub pattern?


The first thing I noticed was that KD wasn't the first one coming off the bench.. Which made me very happy..


Also, foul trouble as an excuse??? Nah the foul trouble starts in the 2ND HALF, just incase GUPD didn't know

Foul trouble can begin in the 1st half and get worse in the 2nd half if not managed pproperly. Case and point Mika not starting vs Gonzaga.

NumberCruncher
03-01-2014, 11:38 AM
Over the course of a game what would be the average ppg with all 3 of those?

Interesting question, Zagsker. Thanks.

So, does the increase in possessions by playing faster make up for an efficiency deficit of 0.08?

I ran the numbers and came up with this:

Over the course of the season, playing 2.4 seconds per possession faster on offense would result in 74 more possessions. That IS enough to overcome the efficiency deficit and results in a net gain of 20 points (0.67 ppg).

However, it also means 74 more defensive possessions. This calculates out to 70 more points given up. So a net loss of 50 points on the season.