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seacatfan
02-24-2014, 12:28 PM
I used to post on the GU forum on the scout network before everyone came over here. I've been lurking for years but finally registered. This has really been bothering me, I've seen it mentioned briefly in a few threads recently. Thought I'd start a new one. I'm not the only one that has noticed that these type of players just don't thrive at Gonzaga. You can go back over the years and make a long list. You might find an exception or two, but that doesn't erase a trend. It's so frustrating. For years the thinking was that Gonzaga needed a 6-5 to 6-7 lanky explosive wing who could play good D and get to the rim to take the next step as a program. Well they've had that player. Repeatedly. Haven't really done much with it. Some players were hampered by injuries. It seems like most of the time the explanation gets trotted out "player X didn't grasp the offensive scheme." After a while that excuse doesn't work for me anymore. Seems more like there is little to no attempt to work those players into the offensive game plan, or for some reason those players are always the one on Few's short leash (we all know this exists). I started this season with high hopes for Coleman in particular but cautious optimism for Nunez as well. Now I'm afraid Coleman's time at GU is going to be wasted. His senior year will probably be like Marquise Carter and Guy Landri-Edi before him. Nunez still has a little time left to develop but I'm not hopeful. It begs the question why Few even takes transfer players like this if he's not going to use them. Anyone else troubled by this as much as I am?

MTZag03
02-24-2014, 12:37 PM
Yeah, I am as well. It is especially vexing when those players repeatedly abuse us in games too. I have no idea why we can't seem to land them or use them. I would guess that the crop of wings we do get just aren't high enough caliber to change the way the offense is run. Most of our good wings have been shooters, not slashers. I think coleman and nunez really are the first we've had that really fit the description you had. I would not be surprised to find few learning to use edem better.

GoZags
02-24-2014, 12:51 PM
Micah Downs seemed to do okay. Anthony Reasons was a transfer who also flourished under Mark Few.

I'd like to think that this isn't a case of 100 percent failure vis a vis athletic wing transfers.

former1dog
02-24-2014, 12:55 PM
Micah Downs seemed to do okay. Anthony Reasons was a transfer who also flourished under Mark Few.

I'd like to think that this isn't a case of 100 percent failure vis a vis athletic wing transfers.

Holey Moley was Reason ever good!

To the OP, I don't know if we really classify Nunez as a wing?

seacatfan
02-24-2014, 01:02 PM
Holey Moley was Reason ever good!

To the OP, I don't know if we really classify Nunez as a wing?

Yeah Nunez is a bit of a stretch. He's more of a 3/4 combo rather than a 2/3 combo. Regardless I'd still like to see more of him on the court, he has a combination of length and explosiveness that few other players in the WCC can match.

former1dog
02-24-2014, 01:10 PM
I would also like to see Nunez get more playing time. His biggest disadvantage is that he missed the first 1/3 of the season due to transfer rules.

I think he's going to get this chance, but likely it will have to wait until next year.

I've been very hopeful for Coleman, especially as he has adjusted from earlier in the season and cut down on the turnovers and started going 85 mph in a 65 zone instead of 110. I am puzzled as to why he hasn't seen the court more.

seacatfan
02-24-2014, 01:11 PM
Reason was good, I wish there had been more players like him follow in his footsteps at GU.

Downs is interesting. He was a McD's AA coming out of high school. Probably overrated, unfortunate for kids when that happens as it creates unreasonable expectations. Things didn't work out at Kansas so he ended up at GU. What I remember of him is that he ended up being a jack of all trades for the Zags, mostly came off the bench, started a few games. He was certainly a contributor but it doesn't seem like he exactly flourished. Did he ever average double figure scoring at GU? I would guess more like around 8-9 ppg. Part of is that he was here when, IMO, Gonzaga had the most overall talent it's ever had. Daye, Pargo, Bouldin, Gray and Heytvelt could all score. At other times any one of those guys could've been a featured scorer but they were all playing together, so their stats were lowered somewhat.

Don't even get me started on Daye. It seems like this board mostly has a dim view of him, and as I just mentioned he was here when there were a bunch of other good players. But he had SOOOOOO much potential. I honestly think he could've been an unstoppable scorer like Morrison. He wasn't even closely utilized to his full potential at GU.

former1dog
02-24-2014, 01:16 PM
Don't even get me started on Daye. It seems like this board mostly has a dim view of him, and as I just mentioned he was here when there were a bunch of other good players. But he had SOOOOOO much potential. I honestly think he could've been an unstoppable scorer like Morrison. He wasn't even closely utilized to his full potential at GU.


Well, Daye left early and I think that bothers a lot of folks. I think Daye made the right decision financially.

I don't think anything coaching wise held Daye back. In fact, I think he did just fine in his 2 years at GU. If he would have stayed he would have been a star.

seacatfan
02-24-2014, 01:17 PM
I would also like to see Nunez get more playing time. His biggest disadvantage is that he missed the first 1/3 of the season due to transfer rules.

I think he's going to get this chance, but likely it will have to wait until next year.

I've been very hopeful for Coleman, especially as he has adjusted from earlier in the season and cut down on the turnovers and started going 85 mph in a 65 zone instead of 110. I am puzzled as to why he hasn't seen the court more.

Exactly, as far as Coleman goes. It's pretty obvious he's tried to make adjustments to fit into what the coaching staff wants him to do here. He frequently makes some big contributions off the bench in the first half of games, then sits almost the entirety of the second half. Regardless of how the game is going. Sometimes the team needs a spark, and he just doesn't get the call to try to provide it.


I really don't like mid season transfers, a la Nunez. He barely played at Louisville, and hasn't gotten consistent minutes at GU. Next year he'll be a Jr., yet he has very little game experience. Transfer at the semester break basically robs you of a whole year of being able to play--1/2 of one year and then 1/2 of the next year. He still has time to develop but he'll be an upperclassman already, so time is wasting.

seacatfan
02-24-2014, 01:21 PM
Well, Daye left early and I think that bothers a lot of folks. I think Daye made the right decision financially.

I don't think anything coaching wise held Daye back. In fact, I think he did just fine in his 2 years at GU. If he would have stayed he would have been a star.



I think it was more than the leaving early. I see people make the accusation that he had a bad attitude frequently. He was definitely demonstrative, but no more so than Morrison was. If he had come back for his Jr. year maybe his scoring would've gone up to like 18 or 20 ppg, who knows. I think part of the problem is that he was forced to play the 4 during his 2 years at GU, if Sacre wasn't injured he could've seen some time at the 3. I don't know, in my mind it just seems like he could've done so much more even in 2 years than what he did. Oh well.

former1dog
02-24-2014, 01:21 PM
I have a feeling Nunez' is going to be just fine. Who knows, maybe he will develop into a wing and we'll have a REALLY big line up!

Pangos
Dranginis
Nunez
Wiltjer
Karnowski

Ekrub
02-24-2014, 01:39 PM
I have a feeling Nunez' is going to be just fine. Who knows, maybe he will develop into a wing and we'll have a REALLY big line up!

Pangos
Dranginis
Nunez
Wiltjer
Karnowski

Love this line up. Last names are all weird though.

seacatfan
02-24-2014, 01:43 PM
Ah, there's always the hope of "next year." I'm a sucker for it every time, just like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football that he knows Peppermint Patty is going to yank away at the last second...

MTZag03
02-24-2014, 01:43 PM
My gosh how did I actually forget both Downs and Reason?

jpwils
02-24-2014, 01:57 PM
My gosh how did I actually forget both Downs and Reason?

Have yet to see Nunez at 3 ....seems plausible....if not this season-fine- what about experimenting over summer and into fall if it seem to be working?

Wiltjer replaces Dowers scoring but what about REBOUNDING?????

How close are we to landing Sabonis?? Could Wiltjer play the 3 in a zone defense and 3 on offense??

And previous poster forgot about or just excluded Bell and Perkins next year.....can Perkins distribute and keep defenses honest? I love DS but imho he barely keeps defenses honest with his outside shot, and makes it harder for Pangos to create a shot. But could Nunez and Karnowski learn to pick and roll so Pangos could free up???? Could Meikle and Edwards ?????

Bell does fine when healthy.

Dranginis is not really a scorer but rebounds well and passes pretty well.

Barham needs to step up the rest of this season if he wants to see the floor. IMHO Coleman deserves double the minutes. Same for nunez this year- I would try him out if we get a big lead vs Pacific.

Where's Pendo when u need him???

kitzbuel
02-24-2014, 02:20 PM
I have a feeling Nunez' is going to be just fine. Who knows, maybe he will develop into a wing and we'll have a REALLY big line up!

Pangos
Dranginis
Nunez
Wiltjer
Karnowski

Pangos - Dranginis
Bell - Nunez
Dranginis - Perkins
Wiltjer - Coleman (Sabonis?)
Karnowski - Meikle/Edwards (Sabonis?)

CDC84
02-24-2014, 02:24 PM
In the words of one reputable college basketball analyst: "Your Gonzaga guys need the same thing every year - another Erroll Knight - and yet he's always missing from your roster."

kitzbuel
02-24-2014, 02:33 PM
In the words of one reputable college basketball analyst: "Your Gonzaga guys need the same thing every year - another Erroll Knight - and yet he's always missing from your roster."

I think we had him last year - Mike Hart. He could have used a little more offensive touch, but Erroll was not in for his offense either.

CDC84
02-24-2014, 02:36 PM
I loved Mike Hart, but he simply didn't have the length, athleticism, explosiveness and jumping ability of Erroll - especially when he was healthy. Mike was the ultimate glue guy for sure, but he wasn't as talented as Knight. And while Erroll wasn't terrific on offense, he had enough to draw attention from defenses.

I have always argued that Erroll could've developed into a much better offensive player had he not been injured so much. His career was reduced to being a wing defensive stopper and energy guy. He could never develop the other aspects of his game.

Erroll is the only wing Gonzaga has had in recent history where I would feel very comfortable assigning him to 6-6 lottery pick on North Carolina or Kentucky. As solid as Hart was defensively, I'm not sure he was good enough to put the clamps on or at least frustrate wings at that kind of level.

ZAGGED OUT
02-24-2014, 02:44 PM
You say you're tired of hearing about players not grasping schemes (op), but in the case of Nunez and Coleman that's really what it is. I love both those guys and the skills they bring to the team, but both have been a work in progress on D. Other years, they may have been given more of a chance when we were playing mostly man D, but this year due our lack of size we've been forced into a zone. With zones, it's all about cohesiveness and rotations. I've watched AN and GC both miss rotation pretty often, one I recall was Nunez (I believe) missing his rotation to the weak side corner where Haws got a wide open jumper. That just can't happen. I generally am on board with Fews misuse of the "athletic wings", however this year I'm giving him somewhat of a pass (not entirely). Both these guys have improved through the year, and both look to be set for more time next year if they continue improving. I don't think either will leave as any major program/coach is going to require defense, so why leave and have to overcome the same issues? Just my two cents.


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Angelo Roncalli
02-24-2014, 03:35 PM
I loved Mike Hart, but he simply didn't have the length, athleticism, explosiveness and jumping ability of Erroll - especially when he was healthy. Mike was the ultimate glue guy for sure, but he wasn't as talented as Knight. And while Erroll wasn't terrific on offense, he had enough to draw attention from defenses.

I have always argued that Erroll could've developed into a much better offensive player had he not been injured so much. His career was reduced to being a wing defensive stopper and energy guy. He could never develop the other aspects of his game.

Erroll is the only wing Gonzaga has had in recent history where I would feel very comfortable assigning him to 6-6 lottery pick on North Carolina or Kentucky. As solid as Hart was defensively, I'm not sure he was good enough to put the clamps on or at least frustrate wings at that kind of level.

Plus One.

Another observation. There are a number of posts in a number of threads about coaching decisions during the final minutes of the UCLA sweet 16 game. In my view, the biggest part of the tide changing at the end of the game was Erroll fouling out, severely limiting GU's ability to get stops down the stretch.

seacatfan
02-24-2014, 03:43 PM
I was referring to offense when I mentioned "not grasping the scheme," but I suppose it applies on defense as well. I think Few for the most part plays the guys he feels comfortable with, who aren't going to make mistakes, but who also sometimes have some glaring weaknesses or shortcomings to their game or physical abilities. He doesn't seem to like to take gambles with players. I don't want to take this thread into territory that's been beaten to death in various other threads, but as an example it just drove me nuts last year when Few insisted on playing Stockton and Hart together for long stretches. Neither could score, so you were playing 3 on 5 on offense, and both had their limitations as far as athletic ability/size as well. You can cover to some degree w/ a player like that, but it's hard w/ both of them on the floor at the same time. Few clearly felt comfortable w/ them on the floor so they got significant minutes.

seacatfan
02-24-2014, 03:47 PM
I really want to believe that Coleman and Nunez will "get it" and will play more significant roles in the future, but I just feel like I've already seen this movie and I know how it ends. Hope I'm wrong.

kitzbuel
02-24-2014, 04:03 PM
Plus One.

Another observation. There are a number of posts in a number of threads about coaching decisions during the final minutes of the UCLA sweet 16 game. In my view, the biggest part of the tide changing at the end of the game was Erroll fouling out, severely limiting GU's ability to get stops down the stretch.

Ding ding ding

seacatfan
02-24-2014, 04:15 PM
Now I got curious, so I looked back thru a bunch of old basketball preview magazines. The list isn't as big as I thought. I'm missing a couple years, wasn't there a JC transfer named Hernandez around the same time as Reason? Anyway there was Tony Skinner, he had some good moments for the Zags. Of course Knight that has been discussed, seems like it was mostly injuries with him. Remember Larry Gurganious? I liked him. Just couldn't seem to find minutes. He was relentless on the offensive glass when he was in there, though. Transferred out. Not sure if I'd count Ira Brown, he wasn't lanky but certainly athletic. Didn't play much. Then of course Manny Arop and Bol Kong. Both washed out fairly quick. I think I've heard there were some issues w/ Kong. I would've like to see how Arop could've developed though. He was never going to be a star, but he's been a solid player for Indiana St. the last 2 years. Mathis Keita maybe too? He never found a role, not really sure what he was recruited to Gonzaga for. That was during the time of the massive roster changes on a yearly basis for 3 years or so. Maybe I'm missing a player or two as well. But hard to find much of a success story. Gonzaga has had good guards and bigs, but the wings just seem to be a continuous missing part of the equation.

quasar1
02-24-2014, 05:06 PM
THIS!! i was at the game and this is exactly when things went bad. I'll never forget Errol getting his 5th, walking back to the bench with a look to the other guys that said, "Do NOT screw this up for me". Another tidbit from this game is that when UCLA scored the go ahead goal, Ammo didn't just fall to the ground crying. He screamed at Pendo to inbound to him so he could take the shot. Man, Zags sure could use that fire right about now.
Plus One.

Another observation. There are a number of posts in a number of threads about coaching decisions during the final minutes of the UCLA sweet 16 game. In my view, the biggest part of the tide changing at the end of the game was Erroll fouling out, severely limiting GU's ability to get stops down the stretch.

willandi
02-24-2014, 05:34 PM
Ah, there's always the hope of "next year." I'm a sucker for it every time, just like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football that he knows Peppermint Patty is going to yank away at the last second...

Wasn't it Lucy?

Ekrub
02-24-2014, 05:43 PM
If I had a time machine the first thing I would do would be to attend that UCLA game and storm the court right before that inbounds pass disrupting the game and securing a zag victory.

CDC84
02-24-2014, 07:06 PM
Now I got curious, so I looked back thru a bunch of old basketball preview magazines. The list isn't as big as I thought. I'm missing a couple years, wasn't there a JC transfer named Hernandez around the same time as Reason? Anyway there was Tony Skinner, he had some good moments for the Zags. Of course Knight that has been discussed, seems like it was mostly injuries with him. Remember Larry Gurganious? I liked him. Just couldn't seem to find minutes. He was relentless on the offensive glass when he was in there, though. Transferred out. Not sure if I'd count Ira Brown, he wasn't lanky but certainly athletic. Didn't play much. Then of course Manny Arop and Bol Kong. Both washed out fairly quick. I think I've heard there were some issues w/ Kong. I would've like to see how Arop could've developed though. He was never going to be a star, but he's been a solid player for Indiana St. the last 2 years. Mathis Keita maybe too? He never found a role, not really sure what he was recruited to Gonzaga for. That was during the time of the massive roster changes on a yearly basis for 3 years or so. Maybe I'm missing a player or two as well. But hard to find much of a success story. Gonzaga has had good guards and bigs, but the wings just seem to be a continuous missing part of the equation.

Unfortunately, the staff has whiffed on a number of wings over the years. I'm not going to drag anyone underneath the bus, but a number of the people that you mentioned above had one or more of these qualities:

1) Complete headcase
2) Total lack of basketball IQ
3) Not enough offensive skill
4) Too short. Too much of a tweener
5) Good player, just not good enough for Gonzaga

Anthony Reason was a good one. Erroll was more talented, but Reason was cut from the same cloth.

ZagaZags
02-24-2014, 07:14 PM
Wasn't it Lucy?

Yep , it was Lucy.

seacatfan
02-24-2014, 08:20 PM
Oops, my bad on the Charlie Brown reference. My apologies to Peppermint Patty, Lucy was the devious one that kept messing with Charlie.

DixieZag
02-24-2014, 08:38 PM
You say you're tired of hearing about players not grasping schemes (op), but in the case of Nunez and Coleman that's really what it is. I love both those guys and the skills they bring to the team, but both have been a work in progress on D. Other years, they may have been given more of a chance when we were playing mostly man D, but this year due our lack of size we've been forced into a zone. With zones, it's all about cohesiveness and rotations. I've watched AN and GC both miss rotation pretty often, one I recall was Nunez (I believe) missing his rotation to the weak side corner where Haws got a wide open jumper. That just can't happen. I generally am on board with Fews misuse of the "athletic wings", however this year I'm giving him somewhat of a pass (not entirely). Both these guys have improved through the year, and both look to be set for more time next year if they continue improving. I don't think either will leave as any major program/coach is going to require defense, so why leave and have to overcome the same issues? Just my two cents.


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And it is a two cents very much worth considering, good observations. I think that part of GU's problem with "athletic wings" is that generally they are the types of players that thrive when the environment encourages a little more creativity and risk taking. One thing I would hope we could all agree on is that Few does not like risk taking, he wants as much control as possible as to where the ball goes and how it goes about getting there. He also has an extremely short leash.

That's not a positive or a negative, just his style and it is tough to argue. I think that's part of the reason we've done so well with bigs. We're consistent in our commitment to going low and scoring, that's served the bigs well. It can kill us with athletic wings b/c those types of players play on the edge, by definition. Coleman and Nunez have been out of control and have made silly mistakes but it takes playing time for any player to figure out when and where to take those risks. Kevin, GBJ, Harris (last year) and KO can all play through those mistakes b/c they do it within a set offense. But Few seems to have no tolerance for a wing playing on the edge. Has Coleman or Nunez cost us at times this year? Yep. But would we have won at Memphis, or BYU had one of those guys been confident and aggressive at the end? We don't know, and that's the problem, we never know b/c we never get there with those types of guys. They're terrified about making a mistake - Pangos isn't, Stockton isn't, Sam isn't. . . .

seacatfan
02-24-2014, 08:43 PM
And it is a two cents very much worth considering, good observations. I think that part of GU's problem with "athletic wings" is that generally they are the types of players that thrive when the environment encourages a little more creativity and risk taking. One thing I would hope we could all agree on is that Few does not like risk taking, he wants as much control as possible as to where the ball goes and how it goes about getting there. He also has an extremely short leash.

That's not a positive or a negative, just his style and it is tough to argue. I think that's part of the reason we've done so well with bigs. We're consistent in our commitment to going low and scoring, that's served the bigs well. It can kill us with athletic wings b/c those types of players play on the edge, by definition. Coleman and Nunez have been out of control and have made silly mistakes but it takes playing time for any player to figure out when and where to take those risks. Kevin, GBJ, Harris (last year) and KO can all play through those mistakes b/c they do it within a set offense. But Few seems to have no tolerance for a wing playing on the edge. Has Coleman or Nunez cost us at times this year? Yep. But would we have won at Memphis, or BYU had one of those guys been confident and aggressive at the end? We don't know, and that's the problem, we never know b/c we never get there with those types of guys. They're terrified about making a mistake - Pangos isn't, Stockton isn't, Sam isn't. . . .

I think you're on to something there. It just makes me wonder why he brings in players, especially transfers, that aren't going to fit his system.

ZAGGED OUT
02-24-2014, 08:51 PM
I don't think he brings in these players promising them time and then sits them. I think they're very aware of what he wants from his players. I'm sure he's very clear about what piece they will be of the collective team, maybe it just takes them longer than expected to accomplish what he asks? I could be completely off base here but just a thought


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Oregonzagnut
02-24-2014, 08:53 PM
I think you're on to something there. It just makes me wonder why he brings in players, especially transfers, that aren't going to fit his system.

I think Few does bring in people who fit, but if two players are equal in whatever Few wants, then he will go with his seniors or upperclassmen over transfers or underclassmen. What coach wouldn't if there were mostly equal variables for each. At the time, I believe the gains at starting Stockton were a wash compared to starting Coleman or Drano. But as time has gone on, the benefits have continued to diverge and now in many peoples opinion, the choice should have been.......something else.

Hindsight is 20/20, but the season isn't over and we can start to play harder than we ever have for 40 minutes.

SteelZag
02-24-2014, 09:33 PM
My only comment on wings,

Noting that the Toreros outrebounded the Zags 38-25, Few said: "We could not match their desire."

That was a quote from Few following the Zags loss to USD in the 2008 WCC Tourney.

The photo of Daye, Downs and Heytfelt locking arms on the bench as time was winding down still haunts me. In that game, those 3 players garnered 48 minutes of playing time and secured 9 of the Zags 23 rebounds. We will never know if they had played say 30 minutes per player if the outcome would have been different. My complaint is don't call out players who are on the bench.

Maybe it's living in the PNW but, if it is raining and my roof has a hole in it I place a bucket underneath the leak until I can remedy the situation.

I often times feel as if Mark Few hopes for the rain to subside as opposed to "Hey! It's getting wet in here!"

bartruff1
02-25-2014, 05:16 AM
I believe Few broke up the Beatles. I have never seen him and Ono in the same picture.....coincidence ? I think not.

bballbeachbum
02-25-2014, 06:42 AM
Steven Gray. Athletic wing who was underappreciated here but able to get it done form that wing position for the Zags. Underrated defender and rebounder, two big keys to being successful at that position. Of course he could shoot it, but also create his own shot and shots for others. He and Bouldin were fun to watch pass and move together

WallaWallaZag
02-25-2014, 06:51 AM
I think Few does bring in people who fit, but if two players are equal in whatever Few wants, then he will go with his seniors or upperclassmen over transfers or underclassmen. What coach wouldn't if there were mostly equal variables for each. At the time, I believe the gains at starting Stockton were a wash compared to starting Coleman or Drano. But as time has gone on, the benefits have continued to diverge and now in many peoples opinion, the choice should have been.......something else.

i think few knows that he needs to get taller and more athletic at the wing to raise the level of the program, but the guys he is able to bring in have weaknesses that ultimately few isn't comfortable with. to me this means two things...the gu program isn't very good at developing these type of players into ones which fit the program and/or the gu program isn't capable of adapting to meet the weaknesses of these players and still integrate them smoothly.

imo, what it boils down to is that in order to get the wing the zags need to say, reach a final 4, they will need to hit the jackpot, in other words depend on blind luck, such as getting a high 4 or 5 star recruit or transfer who already has the combination of iq and athleticism before they even reach gonzaga (knight was probably an example of this). i think mark few will continue to take flyers on players like coleman and nunez until he lucks out on the next knight or reason...i'm pretty sure the program isn't currently capable of consistently turning flawed wing players with high potential into the next knight or reason like they are able to take project bigs and turn them into nba or fringe-nba players.

vandalzag
02-25-2014, 07:02 AM
Good lord, he does not play seniors because they are seniors. He plays the players that he thinks will execute his game plan To say he stifles creativity is wrong. Just a quick list:
Santangelo
Pangos
Pargo
Dickau
Stepp
Raivio
Turiaf
Daye
Olynyk (special case her because once he learned to play as 4/5 in Few's "system" instead of a 7 footer at the 3 he became a lottery pick).
Morrison
I would not consider any players on this list "robotic". When he had Dickau and Morrison he built the teams around them, because they were good enough. List shows talented playes who thrived in Few's "system".
Every coach has a system (except maybe Romar). You do not just roll the balls out and play. Kentucky runs a system, when kids buy in they win. When they don't they go to the NIT.

jagwalkley
02-25-2014, 09:56 AM
we all are.

Ekrub
02-25-2014, 12:25 PM
Steven Gray. Athletic wing who was underappreciated here but able to get it done form that wing position for the Zags. Underrated defender and rebounder, two big keys to being successful at that position. Of course he could shoot it, but also create his own shot and shots for others. He and Bouldin were fun to watch pass and move together

Bouldin is the most underrated zag.

seacatfan
02-25-2014, 01:04 PM
Gray and Bouldin were both good, productive players throughout their careers at GU. Maybe Gray fits the prototype of the particular kind of player I was thinking of, but Bouldin doesn't. Knight fits it to a T. Long, lanky and can jump out of the gym. Sometimes the difference between a 2 and a 3 is nearly non-existent and they can be totally interchangeable. I think of Bouldin especially and Gray to some degree as combo guards. Neither was really the PG at GU, but both had the ball in their hands a lot and were facilitators on offense.

bballbeachbum
02-25-2014, 06:36 PM
Bouldin is the most underrated zag.

perhaps, but he seems to get plenty of props seems to me, and deservedly so.

WallaWallaZag
02-26-2014, 08:56 AM
Gray and Bouldin were both good, productive players throughout their careers at GU. Maybe Gray fits the prototype of the particular kind of player I was thinking of, but Bouldin doesn't. Knight fits it to a T. Long, lanky and can jump out of the gym. Sometimes the difference between a 2 and a 3 is nearly non-existent and they can be totally interchangeable. I think of Bouldin especially and Gray to some degree as combo guards. Neither was really the PG at GU, but both had the ball in their hands a lot and were facilitators on offense.

my memory was of bouldin struggling when he had to match up against bcs level athletes with size and length since he depended so much on overpowering smaller defenders as part of his game...which worked great for him as a primary 2 guard in the wcc. gray was more a prototypical wing imo, though he did have to initiate the offense a lot his senior year due to a lack of talent around him. gray could have served as an e.knight type of player with more offense on the right team i believe.

seacatfan
02-26-2014, 09:59 AM
my memory was of bouldin struggling when he had to match up against bcs level athletes with size and length since he depended so much on overpowering smaller defenders as part of his game...which worked great for him as a primary 2 guard in the wcc. gray was more a prototypical wing imo, though he did have to initiate the offense a lot his senior year due to a lack of talent around him. gray could have served as an e.knight type of player with more offense on the right team i believe.

Yeah, I remember Bouldin struggling against upper level BCS teams as well. Been a few Zags over the years that could dominate against WCC competition but weren't as successful against the big boys.

CDC84
02-26-2014, 10:59 AM
As good as Steven Gray was, I wouldn't have trusted him to guard a 6-6 lottery pick on North Carolina or Kentucky. In fact, I think he was a tad bit overrated as defensive player at Gonzaga. He was also more of shooting guard, and the player that analysts continually say Gonzaga is missing is a long, athletic, powerfully built small forward who plays more of a defensive role than an offensive role (although it's important that he have some offensive skill).

Gonzaga is truly missing that Erroll Knight type of wing defensive stopper.

bballbeachbum
02-27-2014, 06:32 AM
As good as Steven Gray was, I wouldn't have trusted him to guard a 6-6 lottery pick on North Carolina or Kentucky. In fact, I think he was a tad bit overrated as defensive player at Gonzaga. He was also more of shooting guard, and the player that analysts continually say Gonzaga is missing is a long, athletic, powerfully built small forward who plays more of a defensive role than an offensive role (although it's important that he have some offensive skill).

Gonzaga is truly missing that Erroll Knight type of wing defensive stopper.

hmmmm, will have to disagree. Since Steven left there's been a defensive void at the wing that he filled while here quite admirably, including controlling that weak side d glass, and will never forget his blanket job on Klay Thompson who came into that game en fuego, Steven's coming out party to the nation that he was a great defender. I can recall posters here criticizing his game that evening too! classic

He was constantly deployed at the 3 at GU, a classic college wing player on both ends of the floor. Errol was great defensively, no arguments there

Vanzagger
02-27-2014, 10:43 AM
I would have liked to see Bouldin and Gray play more 1 & 2. We had others who could have complimented them at the 3.

Remember that big pg from SoDak St. He's in the NBA now. Where Bouldin and Gray should be.

vandalzag
02-27-2014, 03:22 PM
I would have liked to see Bouldin and Gray play more 1 & 2. We had others who could have complimented them at the 3.

Remember that big pg from SoDak St. He's in the NBA now. Where Bouldin and Gray should be.

Problem was Bouldin did not handle the ball to be a 1 and was not quick enough to cover the 1. The kid you are thinking of is Nate Wolters played for NDSU, and is the real deal. Bouldin was good, but not at his level 22 pts, 6 RB and 6 Asst per game is senior year. Gray should be in the league but shoulda, woulda, coulda