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ZagHouse
02-23-2014, 06:45 AM
At this point, I'm wondering if his playing time is about his body language. For almost the entire second half he had a towel on his head while sitting on the bench. Did not seem engaged in the game. Not sure I can blame him if sees the writing on the wall. I wonder if he was thinking what a lot of folks were thinking...."I can score against this team. I can get to the rim and at least draw some fouls like I did in the first half."

Would have been interested to know if he finally said something about getting pulled and Few sat him. Doesn't make sense that in a game where we needed dribble penetration, our best player at getting to the rim was a spectator.

drvenkman05
02-23-2014, 07:15 AM
At this point, I'm wondering if his playing time is about his body language. For almost the entire second half he had a towel on his head while sitting on the bench. Did not seem engaged in the game. Not sure I can blame him if sees the writing on the wall. I wonder if he was thinking what a lot of folks were thinking...."I can score against this team. I can get to the rim and at least draw some fouls like I did in the first half."

Would have been interested to know if he finally said something about getting pulled and Few sat him. Doesn't make sense that in a game where we needed dribble penetration, our best player at getting to the rim was a spectator.

The fact that this is even a possibility speaks volumes about Few's approach. If true, it is the first solid evidence that "the system" is more important than actually winning.

AzZag
02-23-2014, 07:34 AM
At this point, I'm wondering if his playing time is about his body language. For almost the entire second half he had a towel on his head while sitting on the bench. Did not seem engaged in the game. Not sure I can blame him if sees the writing on the wall. I wonder if he was thinking what a lot of folks were thinking...."I can score against this team. I can get to the rim and at least draw some fouls like I did in the first half."

Would have been interested to know if he finally said something about getting pulled and Few sat him. Doesn't make sense that in a game where we needed dribble penetration, our best player at getting to the rim was a spectator.

He has had a towel on his head the whole year.
I have seen several basketball players over the years do this.
He also has red shoes. Just a style thing.

As far as being engaged, I have to give the kid credit.
He was up during timeouts slapping fives to his teammates and clapping
during made buckets. I would have been taking that towel on my head and rolling it into a rat tail and whipped the crap outta Coach Few begging for more PT

SunDevilGolfZag
02-23-2014, 07:35 AM
Coleman has worn the towel on his head all year, except for during the relatively scarce times he actually gets to play. Its a puzzler at times why he's not in there when we actually need some production, and the two games this weekend were good examples. He at least takes the boredom out of watching this predictable team and gives us a chance to shake things up instead of settling for at best rising only to the level of our opposition.

Baseline
02-23-2014, 12:15 PM
I think the towel is just his habit, but I would love to know his thought process at this point. My guess is he feels he has made a big mistake coming to GU. I hope that's not the case, but I sure would not blame him for such feelings.

pbriz
02-23-2014, 12:26 PM
Coleman is realistically the only player on this team that can consistently create his own shot.

Few needs to realize that passing around the perimeter and then driving into a crowd and throwing up a 15 foot floater will not win games for us. Bell, Pangos, Stockton, and Dranginis all do this and it's not working.

Coleman is the only player on this team that can get to the rim (all the way) consistently and finish. He plays hard and is a perfect compliment to Bell and Pangos and is 2x the defender that Stockton is.

Enough with seniority, loyalty, and trying to fit players into a system. It's time for Coleman to start and get 25+ minutes per game.

jagwalkley
02-23-2014, 02:48 PM
I hate to say it,but this is the sad truth.The system is more important than winning.Poor Few must have loved winning with Morrison,etc, but killed him seeing guys take over his game plan. I want to root for someone that wants to take a chance and win.No playing not to loose.

Mr Vulture
02-23-2014, 03:09 PM
I don't see the frustration with Coleman not playing myself. I really don't think he is the difference in any of those games we lost and has been forcing things when he does play. He is great in transition, inconsistent on defense, and can't shoot at all.

GrizZAG
02-23-2014, 03:22 PM
I don't see the frustration with Coleman not playing myself. I really don't think he is the difference in any of those games we lost and has been forcing things when he does play. He is great in transition, inconsistent on defense, and can't shoot at all.

Coleman was voted GU Unit three times: Chaminade, N.Mex State and Coppin. At present there are only two players that have been voted GU Unit more. Sam and KP

vandalzag
02-23-2014, 03:28 PM
The fact that this is even a possibility speaks volumes about Few's approach. If true, it is the first solid evidence that "the system" is more important than actually winning.

The only reason it is a possibility is that somebody made something up based up the picture they saw on the magic tv box with no actual fact to justify the premise of his guess, so it says exactly zero about Few's approach. Unless of course the OP was able to tap into Jazz's ability to read minds and body language, because that is never wrong. I think Few did not play him because he really wants to lose, he is tired of coaching and wants GU to fire him so they have to buy out his contract. That way he can take a job coaching 5th grade C squad girls basketball at St. Als where all the players are short and he can run a 5 guard lineup. Now the possibility of this really speaks volumes about Few's approach.

Mr Vulture
02-23-2014, 04:20 PM
Coleman was voted GU Unit three times: Chaminade, N.Mex State and Coppin. At present there are only two players that have been voted GU Unit more. Sam and KP

Well, with a point like this i guess Coleman is the answer....GU Unit...hahaha!

Zag 77
02-23-2014, 04:29 PM
Coleman is the only player on this team that can get to the rim (all the way) consistently and finish

Except, when he makes acrobatic runs to the basket and misses; Or

gets stuffed; Or

gest fouled and shoots about 50%.

Give me a friggin break.:mad:

Oregonzagnut
02-23-2014, 05:04 PM
I hate to say it,but this is the sad truth.The system is more important than winning.Poor Few must have loved winning with Morrison,etc, but killed him seeing guys take over his game plan. I want to root for someone that wants to take a chance and win.No playing not to loose.

Morrison was the last guy that Few allowed to really do his own improvisation with a full green light. Few knew Morrison was better than Fews own system. Morrison's creativity and drive is something Few does not allow or reward anymore.

drvenkman05
02-23-2014, 05:13 PM
The only reason it is a possibility is that somebody made something up based up the picture they saw on the magic tv box with no actual fact to justify the premise of his guess, so it says exactly zero about Few's approach. Unless of course the OP was able to tap into Jazz's ability to read minds and body language, because that is never wrong. I think Few did not play him because he really wants to lose, he is tired of coaching and wants GU to fire him so they have to buy out his contract. That way he can take a job coaching 5th grade C squad girls basketball at St. Als where all the players are short and he can run a 5 guard lineup. Now the possibility of this really speaks volumes about Few's approach.

Nice try, but your "blame the players always" approach fails you again.

This is a possibility because in multiple games, Coleman has sat for nearly the entire second half after playing well in the first half. If a.) you can't see how that could affect (no one knows if it does but it is a sad fact that it is even a possibility) a 20-year-old kid and b.) are willing to trash a bunch of 20-year-old kids to try to defend a full-grown adult and pretend that he is flawless, you are truly lost and a perfect example of the "the system is more important than winning" mentality.

drvenkman05
02-23-2014, 05:15 PM
Except, when he makes acrobatic runs to the basket and misses; Or

gets stuffed; Or

gest fouled and shoots about 50%.

Give me a friggin break.:mad:

As opposed to players who refuse to shoot? You can't win if you can't score and you can't score if you refuse to shoot. You are another great example of the "the system matters more than winning" mentality.

drvenkman05
02-23-2014, 05:17 PM
Morrison was the last guy that Few allowed to really do his own improvisation with a full green light. Few knew Morrison was better than Fews own system. Morrison's creativity and drive is something Few does not allow or reward anymore.

Excellent point. You get what you reinforce and unfortunately, Few has chosen to reinforce not shooting and not scoring.

Oregonzagnut
02-23-2014, 05:21 PM
Except, when he makes acrobatic runs to the basket and misses; Or

gets stuffed; Or

gest fouled and shoots about 50%.

Give me a friggin break.:mad:

Coleman shoots 50% from the field and averages 6.6 ppg, 1.8 rpg, in 12 mpg.
Stockton shoots 43% from the field and averages 7.1 ppg, 2.0 rpg, in 28 mpg.

Coleman/Nunez have the size, length and athleticism we should have been developing all year to arrive at a team able to handle the tough defense and elite athleticism we see EVERY SINGLE YEAR IN MARCH!! this is nothing new and Few actually recruited it and GOT IT! But he went right back to his comfort zone.

ALL YEAR, Few chose to develop a small guard lineup that cannot handle the elite athletic defense minded guards and gets flustered and beat up easily.
Few should have taken earlier losses to produce the most skilled AND ATHLETIC team we could produce and gamble that athleticism and skill will be what we need in March. Which it is. Plus with Stockton, Bell and Pangos playing at the same time for so long, no one really gets much rest when Stockton should be playing 15-18 minutes behind Pangos or Bell. It was a no brainer IMO and now we are committed with a small, yet fundamentally sound team that MUST rely on the 3 pt shot to win big games.

Why invest in big guns if you are too scared to learn how to shoot them. .22 calibers are accurate and reliable, but if you want to hunt bear while it's hunting you, you better have learned to shoot your .50 cal.

Few didn't learn to use the big guns he invested in and he wasn't patient when they missed the mark early in the season. Few is going to have to accept a lower accuracy rate in exchange for more powerful punch. IMO, we had the right balance of athleticism and skill this year to go deep in March.

kclubfounder
02-23-2014, 05:38 PM
If Coleman was a little more selective about when to attack the basket I'd be more on the "play Coleman more" bandwagon. But right now I am reminded of the offensive strategy of my son's 4th grade team. I believe his decision making will improve and he will be a big-time player for us - next year.

Oregonzagnut
02-23-2014, 05:52 PM
If Coleman was a little more selective about when to attack the basket I'd be more on the "play Coleman more" bandwagon. But right now I am reminded of the offensive strategy of my son's 4th grade team. I believe his decision making will improve and he will be a big-time player for us - next year.

So he gets that 4-5 more minutes next year, when he could have gotten that earlier this year, we could have rode the rough patches earlier and had that guy we need now, not next year. For this entire year, if Coleman would have had those 4-5 more minutes (16-17 minutes) per game: Coleman would be the best choice to use as our starting wing than using stockton as our 3 pronged small guard lineup.

We can go around and around with what ifs all day, but our offense cannot handle athletic defenses this year and it most certainly cannot defend at an elite athletic level for 40 minutes. In fact the 2nd half collapses are becoming too common. With Stockton, Bell and Pangos playing together, there is literally no meaningful back up for Pangos or Bell.

kclubfounder
02-23-2014, 06:02 PM
So he gets that 5-10 more minutes next year, when he could have gotten that earlier this year, we could have rode the rough patches earlier and had that guy we need now, not next year. For this entire year, if Coleman would have had 5 more minutes (17 minutes) per game: Coleman would be the best choice to use as our starting wing than using stockton as our 3 pronged small guard lineup.

We can go around and around with what ifs all day, but our offense cannot handle athletic defenses this year and it most certainly cannot defend at an elite athletic level for 40 minutes. In fact the 2nd half collapses are becoming too common. With Stockton, Bell and Pangos playing together, there is literally no meaningful back up for Pangos or Bell.

I agree that game experience helps in development, but not to the degree that you are implying. The 80 minutes of games per week is not what is going to get Coleman (or anybody) to the next level. It is practice and studying film and all the work that happens leading up to the games that is going to lead to his success.

Oregonzagnut
02-23-2014, 06:21 PM
I agree that game experience helps in development, but not to the degree that you are implying. The 80 minutes of games per week is not what is going to get Coleman (or anybody) to the next level. It is practice and studying film and all the work that happens leading up to the games that is going to lead to his success.

Then if it is mostly nurture vs nature, than Stockton should be as good as his dad. Or at least as good as Raivio, Stepp or Dickau. Dickau only had 3 years of Zag film and practice. Stockton had 5. We need athleticism and length more than we need a 3 guard attack that is struggling to shoot jump shots and 3 pt shots. If we could rebound, our missed shots would be less costly.

Are Colemans defensive lapses worse than Stockton leaving his man to go for a steal or worse than Karno defending the perimeter and leaving the paint wide open?

IMO the skills and stat lines are a wash, what makes Coleman the better option is his length and his ability to drive to the hoop. As it is now, they can challenge Stockton to shoot all day, but they CANNOT challenge Coleman to drive. Ever. It s an entirely different skill set and we need that in an athletic wing if we want to win in March THIS YEAR!

You seem to have written off this year when IMO, we could have only had 3 losses right now and a fearsome offensive and defensive threat. As it is, (hindsight is 20/20) both our offense and defense is rattled and inconsistent.

The point is moot now. We have committed and we are not peaking like we had hoped and Few banked on. But it stems from the same problem we knew for 10 years: Elite teams MUST have both elite skill, and elite athleticism. I am fully convinced that our startere have elite skill. But average athleticism. A better potential balance sits on the bench.

MDABE80
02-23-2014, 06:35 PM
The only reason it is a possibility is that somebody made something up based up the picture they saw on the magic tv box with no actual fact to justify the premise of his guess, so it says exactly zero about Few's approach. Unless of course the OP was able to tap into Jazz's ability to read minds and body language, because that is never wrong. I think Few did not play him because he really wants to lose, he is tired of coaching and wants GU to fire him so they have to buy out his contract. That way he can take a job coaching 5th grade C squad girls basketball at St. Als where all the players are short and he can run a 5 guard lineup. Now the possibility of this really speaks volumes about Few's approach.about as pointless a post as anyone can make without thinking. Nice goin..

AzZag
02-23-2014, 06:42 PM
I agree that game experience helps in development, but not to the degree that you are implying. The 80 minutes of games per week is not what is going to get Coleman (or anybody) to the next level. It is practice and studying film and all the work that happens leading up to the games that is going to lead to his success.

Uhhhh...he could study film from sunrise to sundown but it wouldn't matter if he doesn't get a shot to play extended minutes. What some of you "experts" are failing to mention is that the current structure of things isn't working. Stockton is a spark plug not a starter. Pangos and Bell are in ruts. Barham only has one good skill which he can only exploit when there is the threat of someone driving and keeping the opposing D honest.

Look. I'm not on an island here. TONS of Zag fans are scratching their heads at why we are brutally sticking to a stoic game plan. Open this Shiz up and let the few horses we have in the stable run. What do we have to lose??? At least it will be more fun to watch than 20 passes around ther perimeter or feeding it into the post until the other team adjusts.

Rio Runner
02-23-2014, 07:06 PM
Coleman shoots 50% from the field and averages 6.6 ppg, 1.8 rpg, in 12 mpg.
Stockton shoots 43% from the field and averages 7.1 ppg, 2.0 rpg, in 28 mpg.

Coleman/Nunez have the size, length and athleticism we should have been developing all year to arrive at a team able to handle the tough defense and elite athleticism we see EVERY SINGLE YEAR IN MARCH!! this is nothing new and Few actually recruited it and GOT IT! But he went right back to his comfort zone.

ALL YEAR, Few chose to develop a small guard lineup that cannot handle the elite athletic defense minded guards and gets flustered and beat up easily.
Few should have taken earlier losses to produce the most skilled AND ATHLETIC team we could produce and gamble that athleticism and skill will be what we need in March. Which it is. Plus with Stockton, Bell and Pangos playing at the same time for so long, no one really gets much rest when Stockton should be playing 15-18 minutes behind Pangos or Bell. It was a no brainer IMO and now we are committed with a small, yet fundamentally sound team that MUST rely on the 3 pt shot to win big games.

Why invest in big guns if you are too scared to learn how to shoot them. .22 calibers are accurate and reliable, but if you want to hunt bear while it's hunting you, you better have learned to shoot your .50 cal.

Few didn't learn to use the big guns he invested in and he wasn't patient when they missed the mark early in the season. Few is going to have to accept a lower accuracy rate in exchange for more powerful punch. IMO, we had the right balance of athleticism and skill this year to go deep in March.

Good stuff. I couldn't agree more.

Oregonzagnut
02-23-2014, 07:15 PM
Uhhhh...he could study film from sunrise to sundown but it wouldn't matter if he doesn't get a shot to play extended minutes. What some of you "experts" are failing to mention is that the current structure of things isn't working. Stockton is a spark plug not a starter. Pangos and Bell are in ruts. Barham only has one good skill which he can only exploit when there is the threat of someone driving and keeping the opposing D honest.

Look. I'm not on an island here. TONS of Zag fans are scratching their heads at why we are brutally sticking to a stoic game plan. Open this Shiz up and let the few horses we have in the stable run. What do we have to lose??? At least it will be more fun to watch than 20 passes around ther perimeter or feeding it into the post until the other team adjusts.

Remember the first 4 games of the WCC? When both Bell and Dower were out? Few had not fathomed this, and the guys obviously thought on their feet, reacted to the opponents plays, and had fun both fighting on offense and fighting on defense using their own instinct and hustle. Those were the most exciting games of the year. Not stoic, not predictable and our defense proved it could completely shut down offenses and our guys could create their own shots.

The look in their eyes during those games is the opposite of what I saw this week.

ZagaZags
02-23-2014, 07:17 PM
As opposed to players who refuse to shoot? You can't win if you can't score and you can't score if you refuse to shoot. You are another great example of the "the system matters more than winning" mentality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIug-HngLYc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE

vandalzag
02-23-2014, 07:22 PM
Nice try, but your "blame the players always" approach fails you again.

This is a possibility because in multiple games, Coleman has sat for nearly the entire second half after playing well in the first half. If a.) you can't see how that could affect (no one knows if it does but it is a sad fact that it is even a possibility) a 20-year-old kid and b.) are willing to trash a bunch of 20-year-old kids to try to defend a full-grown adult and pretend that he is flawless, you are truly lost and a perfect example of the "the system is more important than winning" mentality.

Where did I blame the player. What I did say was that you taking an observation made by somebody with zero connection or knowledge of the situation, let alone actual facts, and offering that as an indictment of Few is foolish. Funny I do not trash kids, I leave that to a know it all like Jazz and MDABE. I do not state that Few is perfect or without flaws. What I do offer is that he is superior to idiot, including myself, that takes time to post on this site and pretends to know more than the guy who is considered one of the best coaches in the country. What is funny is the legion of know it all fans like MDABE and Jazz that will trash the players because they dare lose a game and not play to the standards of the internet message board. Honestly I find most of the post on this site pathetic, people taking shots at players and coaches alike, when they themselves could only dream of performing at that level. Finally, noting in my post said Coleman should not have been playing, if you are unable to comprehend that I am willing to spell it out again. Also posted in many different threads that he should have been playing more. But many, due to a pre-conceived notion make it a Coleman Stockton issue and decide that they must run down one player to promote another.


about as pointless a post as anyone can make without thinking. Nice goin..
Really I thought so as well, since I completely made it up based upon nothing, but if it was true that would really mean that Few cares more about the system than winning. Actually it was about as pointless as attempting to take some made up notion, with no bearing in facts and using that to come up with "the system is more important that winning". But I guess you are the judge of all since you know if the players are lacking toughness, you know if the program is having issues making changes and winning games, and of course you know all bout the recruiting situation and how the staff is falling short (not letting recruits know they are serious about visits). It is amazing that you amassed all of this knowledge and can also be a Dr. Not many can be a D1 caliber athlete (must be how you know to judge toughness and all other intangibles), a successful D1 coach ( thus your knowledge of program development, coaching philosophy recruiting,etc...), add that to being a DR and you are truly a man to be admired. Or does your superior insight come from the fact that you are a season ticket holder and maybe even a financial donor.

ZagaZags
02-23-2014, 07:38 PM
Towel on the head is ok, throwing the towel in would be bad.

Ezag
02-23-2014, 08:32 PM
Towel on the head is ok, throwing the towel in would be bad.

Agreed but at least he got in the 2nd half of the SD game with 30 seconds left LOL

Zag 77
02-23-2014, 08:39 PM
I don't know how he got this late into his basketball career with a range of about 5 inches from the basket.

Needs to develop a jump shot in the off season.

Zippyzaggy
02-23-2014, 08:41 PM
Perhaps, the reason he has a towel over his head is to hide his embarrasment of not playing.

He really does have an excellent attitude for a guy that probably should be seeing more minutes, going so far as to call Few an "offensive mastermind." Wonder if the "offensive" part has a double meaning...

Zippyzaggy
02-23-2014, 08:45 PM
I don't know how he got this late into his basketball career with a range of about 5 inches from the basket.

Needs to develop a jump shot in the off season.

I finally saw Karnowski attempt a real shot last night, other than a hook or soft dunk. It was from approx. 2 feet away, and he airballed it over the side rim. Maybe he could take lessons from Coleman, since he's been at it a little longer.

exclusivelee
02-23-2014, 10:12 PM
I finally saw Karnowski attempt a real shot last night, other than a hook or soft dunk. It was from approx. 2 feet away, and he airballed it over the side rim. Maybe he could take lessons from Coleman, since he's been at it a little longer.

Rewatch the game. Shem made a shot from about 15 feet out after a whistle. And look further back in this season and Shem hit a jumper from around the free throw line (and he wasn't shooting a free throw)

Vanzagger
02-24-2014, 07:09 AM
You tube highlight real he is bottom of the net on several J's

drvenkman05
02-24-2014, 07:13 AM
Once again, you demonstrate the "trash a player to protect the coach" mentality. Your contributions are, "players didn't play well, Few is great, you can't see practice, recruiting, etc." If that isn't "the system is more important than winning" mentality, I don't know what is. Your increase in personal attacks are also excellent evidence that your usual song and dance aren't working anymore - people are realizing that asking questions about how Few is coaching (in the same way people ask questions about how players are playing) is perfectly normal and not some sinister plot to get Few fired or any indication that think they know more than Few, etc.

bartruff1
02-24-2014, 07:58 AM
"The best players play. That is the way it will always be."....larry bird

kclubfounder
02-24-2014, 08:28 AM
Once again, you demonstrate the "trash a player to protect the coach" mentality. Your contributions are, "players didn't play well, Few is great, you can't see practice, recruiting, etc." If that isn't "the system is more important than winning" mentality, I don't know what is. Your increase in personal attacks are also excellent evidence that your usual song and dance aren't working anymore - people are realizing that asking questions about how Few is coaching (in the same way people ask questions about how players are playing) is perfectly normal and not some sinister plot to get Few fired or any indication that think they know more than Few, etc.

This "The system is more important than winning" kick you are on is quite a theory.

In my lifetime of following sports it is almost universally believed that good systems lead to winning.

vandalzag
02-24-2014, 08:32 AM
Once again, you demonstrate the "trash a player to protect the coach" mentality. Your contributions are, "players didn't play well, Few is great, you can't see practice, recruiting, etc." If that isn't "the system is more important than winning" mentality, I don't know what is. Your increase in personal attacks are also excellent evidence that your usual song and dance aren't working anymore - people are realizing that asking questions about how Few is coaching (in the same way people ask questions about how players are playing) is perfectly normal and not some sinister plot to get Few fired or any indication that think they know more than Few, etc.

Once again you miss the point. I do not trash the players, I take offense as those who do. And I take offense at people you want to indict Few based upon the made up observation of an internet poster who knows nothing of the situation other than what he sees. Your remark about the system being more important than winning is just silly. First they system wins, zags have a winning record this year and the past 15 so the system is working. If you want to watch a program full of athletes that run around and attack the rim free form go watch Romar's Huskies. Lot' of guys that can get their own shot and dunk the ball. How have they been doing? Second the term system encompasses everything from Defense and Offense. If a player is not doing what is needed to function within the system then there are issues. You change the system for singular talents that surpass anything the rest of the roster has to offer (a Morrison or Dickau level talent...) and with all respect to Coleman he is not that at that level. That is not trashing him, that is an honest assessment that would be shared by anybody who has ever seen a basketball game. That does not mean he does not have a place on this team.
Questioning of the coach and his decisions are what the forum is all about. Do I agree with everything the staff does, nope. Nor do I present myself as knowing more or that my opinion is anything more than that Want to compare knowledge of the game based on playing and coaching experience, I am all for that. But forming and opinion based not on facts but the made up musings of somebody else is flat out ignorant. Do I think Coleman should play more, yes. Do I know why he is not playing more, no but I can hazard a guess based upon how Few has coached over the years. Do I know for fact or am I going form an opinion based on rumor and innuendo, no because doing so lacks any type of thought and I prefer to be smarter than that.

Vanzagger
02-24-2014, 09:14 AM
We have won the last 15 years because we have had the most talent. Period. The coaches deserve a ton of credit for this

We had an NBA player go to GU and never even lace them up. That's how talented we have been

drvenkman05
02-24-2014, 09:15 AM
This "The system is more important than winning" kick you are on is quite a theory.

In my lifetime of following sports it is almost universally believed that good systems lead to winning.

You're missing the point. A system is only as good as the result it produces. If, for a period of time, the system isn't working as well as it could, if one is focused on results, changes will be made. If one is focused on maintaining the system only, no changes will be made.

That is what seems to be happening at Gonzaga - currently-effective players who "don't know the system as well/have a low basketball IQ" aren't playing while currently-ineffective players who "know the system/have a high basketball IQ" are playing and we are losing. You (and others on both sides) have no problem pointing out areas players need improvement but you (and others with your position) refuse to acknowledge that Few needs
Improvement too.

The fact that you (and others) insist on blaming the players only, trashing players, and insulting posters (by calling them names, claiming they want Few fired, claiming they know more than Few, etc) only highlights your "the system is more important than winning" mentality.

drvenkman05
02-24-2014, 09:28 AM
Once again you miss the point. I do not trash the players, I take offense as those who do. And I take offense at people you want to indict Few based upon the made up observation of an internet poster who knows nothing of the situation other than what he sees. Your remark about the system being more important than winning is just silly. First they system wins, zags have a winning record this year and the past 15 so the system is working. If you want to watch a program full of athletes that run around and attack the rim free form go watch Romar's Huskies. Lot' of guys that can get their own shot and dunk the ball. How have they been doing? Second the term system encompasses everything from Defense and Offense. If a player is not doing what is needed to function within the system then there are issues. You change the system for singular talents that surpass anything the rest of the roster has to offer (a Morrison or Dickau level talent...) and with all respect to Coleman he is not that at that level. That is not trashing him, that is an honest assessment that would be shared by anybody who has ever seen a basketball game. That does not mean he does not have a place on this team.
Questioning of the coach and his decisions are what the forum is all about. Do I agree with everything the staff does, nope. Nor do I present myself as knowing more or that my opinion is anything more than that Want to compare knowledge of the game based on playing and coaching experience, I am all for that. But forming and opinion based not on facts but the made up musings of somebody else is flat out ignorant. Do I think Coleman should play more, yes. Do I know why he is not playing more, no but I can hazard a guess based upon how Few has coached over the years. Do I know for fact or am I going form an opinion based on rumor and innuendo, no because doing so lacks any type of thought and I prefer to be smarter than that.

Nice try, but again, your "trash the players to protect Few" mentality doesn't work. You can't score if you can't shoot and you can't win games if you can't score. That fact involves two groups: players (not shooting and scoring) and coaches (not playing players who will shoot). I don't understand why it is so difficult to admit that Few needs to improve just as the players need to improve.

Again, you are more interested in "protecting the system" than winning. Yes, the system has worked in the past. However, it is not currently working as well as it could. Making no changes to the system (at this point we are taking about pretty minor adjustments) when it is producing poor results (losing) is the definition of "the system is more important than winning" mentality.

Perhaps an example will help. Your entire argument is identical to the argument of Broncos fans prior to the SuperBowl - "they score so many points, Peyton can't be stopped, Seattle has never seen an offense like the Broncos offense, etc.". Those points are all valid and true. However, when the game starts, those facts are irrelevant. What matters is how you play in that game. Denver made no adjustments and was blown out. The same thing is happening at Gonzaga (albeit on a smaller scale). You (and other posters) are talking about how great Few has been in the past (although you ignore his record against top 25 teams). That is great (and we should be thankful for the team's success) but in a game, that past success is irrelevant. What matters is whether adjustments can be made based on what is happening in the game. Unfortunately, that has not been happening (players who are scoring, or at least take shots, aren't playing), which again, is the definition of the "the system matter more than winning" mentality.

zagfan1970
02-24-2014, 09:57 AM
I think Stockton shot in the low 50's, and I can remember Stockton driving into the lane losing the ball in traffic, getting rejected, etc, but some remeber the steal or great pass instead. It still doesn't mean we should settle for 2 bigs and a bunch of 3's, cuz if we aren't hitting 8-10 of them per game we are dead!

mgadfly
02-24-2014, 10:40 AM
Coleman has an offensive rating of 95.3 and a shot% of 32.6%. He has got to be more efficient in order to earn more minutes. He creates his own shot (32.6% is the most shots per opportunity on the team), but he isn't converting them or his free throws at a rate much better than Meech or Will Foster. That's a problem.

On the plus side, and the reason I'd play him, he has a 3.1% steal rate. I love defense and I'd have him out there, but to pretend like he has been universally awesome without recognizing his incredibly poor efficiency on the offensive end is not fair to the coaching staff.

With a coaching staff that wants efficiency on the offensive end (above all else) I'd be surprised if we don't see even more of these guys the final few games:
Barham: 129.4 Offensive efficiency rating
Dower: 127.5
Bell: 121.0
Pangos: 120.8

Everybody else (possible exception of Dranginis-110.5 ORtg) have efficiency numbers that I'm sure the coaches are concerned about. (Karnowski's 102.7 is actually very good considering the hit he takes for shooting free throws so poorly).

Zags11
02-24-2014, 10:59 AM
Love how we name call. Clap it out.

Mantua
02-24-2014, 11:38 AM
Coleman shoots 50% from the field and averages 6.6 ppg, 1.8 rpg, in 12 mpg.
Stockton shoots 43% from the field and averages 7.1 ppg, 2.0 rpg, in 28 mpg.

Coleman/Nunez have the size, length and athleticism we should have been developing all year to arrive at a team able to handle the tough defense and elite athleticism we see EVERY SINGLE YEAR IN MARCH!! this is nothing new and Few actually recruited it and GOT IT! But he went right back to his comfort zone.

ALL YEAR, Few chose to develop a small guard lineup that cannot handle the elite athletic defense minded guards and gets flustered and beat up easily.
Few should have taken earlier losses to produce the most skilled AND ATHLETIC team we could produce and gamble that athleticism and skill will be what we need in March. Which it is. Plus with Stockton, Bell and Pangos playing at the same time for so long, no one really gets much rest when Stockton should be playing 15-18 minutes behind Pangos or Bell. It was a no brainer IMO and now we are committed with a small, yet fundamentally sound team that MUST rely on the 3 pt shot to win big games.

Why invest in big guns if you are too scared to learn how to shoot them. .22 calibers are accurate and reliable, but if you want to hunt bear while it's hunting you, you better have learned to shoot your .50 cal.

Few didn't learn to use the big guns he invested in and he wasn't patient when they missed the mark early in the season. Few is going to have to accept a lower accuracy rate in exchange for more powerful punch. IMO, we had the right balance of athleticism and skill this year to go deep in March.

I agree. I also agree with the remarks made about shots not taken with regard to efficiency. The team chemistry is off lately and perhaps this has something to do with Coleman and Nunez being under utilized when their athleticism could be an asset. I don't understand why more substitutions weren't made early in the second halves of the last two games. It's painful to see the obvious disappointment coming from the bench.

kclubfounder
02-24-2014, 05:32 PM
Coleman has an offensive rating of 95.3 and a shot% of 32.6%. He has got to be more efficient in order to earn more minutes. He creates his own shot (32.6% is the most shots per opportunity on the team), but he isn't converting them or his free throws at a rate much better than Meech or Will Foster. That's a problem.

On the plus side, and the reason I'd play him, he has a 3.1% steal rate. I love defense and I'd have him out there, but to pretend like he has been universally awesome without recognizing his incredibly poor efficiency on the offensive end is not fair to the coaching staff.

With a coaching staff that wants efficiency on the offensive end (above all else) I'd be surprised if we don't see even more of these guys the final few games:
Barham: 129.4 Offensive efficiency rating
Dower: 127.5
Bell: 121.0
Pangos: 120.8

Everybody else (possible exception of Dranginis-110.5 ORtg) have efficiency numbers that I'm sure the coaches are concerned about. (Karnowski's 102.7 is actually very good considering the hit he takes for shooting free throws so poorly).

Very interesting. Thanks for those stats. I'm curious how the heck you got them.

Anyway, I think they confirm my only problem with Coleman. He is offensively too wild and woolly - and attacks the basket without any discretion. That fault (in my opinion) is what many on this board seem to love about him.

I think he'll figure it out. I think he'll be more selective. Then I think he'll become a very, very valuable player.

I would love it to happen right this second, but I think it will take some time. I think next year will be a big, big year for Mr. Coleman.

Spokane24
02-24-2014, 06:15 PM
I think there is a message. Next to Pangos, his is the only Zag that goes to the rim, keeps the D. playing honest and can finish.
The issues about the lse to San Diego being the refs. fault....come on. Who is going to foul at team when their game is mostly
played on the outside.
Blaming Stockton is not right either. He penetrates off the dribble well but the offense is mostly hanging around @ 20 ft
waiting to shoot when he does.
Pangos is All American quality but is running ragged with all the running around, into, all the minutes while trying to do all that he
can for the team to win....and with others struggling to contribute; the more falls on his game.
Coaching staff seems to struggle at the end on close games.Hopefully they can get it together...this is a good team!

bartruff1
02-24-2014, 06:23 PM
I don't believe the system is more important than winning and I do not think Few does either.

kclubfounder
02-25-2014, 03:28 PM
Just read this & felt it should be added to this thread. If it is elsewhere on the site I apologize for not noticing it.

http://www.slipperstillfits.com/2014/2/25/5443084/gonzaga-bulldogs-gerard-coleman-offense

exclusivelee
02-25-2014, 03:33 PM
Just read this & felt it should be added to this thread. If it is elsewhere on the site I apologize for not noticing it.

http://www.slipperstillfits.com/2014/2/25/5443084/gonzaga-bulldogs-gerard-coleman-offense

I really disagree with the current argument in that blog due to Coleman's new emmergence to being more unselfish, passing more often, and limiting his 1 on 3 shots

Mantua
02-25-2014, 06:31 PM
Just read this & felt it should be added to this thread. If it is elsewhere on the site I apologize for not noticing it.

http://www.slipperstillfits.com/2014/2/25/5443084/gonzaga-bulldogs-gerard-coleman-offense

It's a point of view from
" Peter Woodburn
Contributor

Peter is a Journalism grad from Gonzaga University and one of the nine documented Mariners fans that still exist in the greater Seattle metro area. He writes for an independent arts oriented website as well as keeps his own useless blog updated with things no one cares about. He has an unhealthy relationship with Russian literature, and a very healthy relationship with zombie movies."

kclubfounder
02-25-2014, 07:04 PM
It's a point of view from
" Peter Woodburn
Contributor

Peter is a Journalism grad from Gonzaga University and one of the nine documented Mariners fans that still exist in the greater Seattle metro area. He writes for an independent arts oriented website as well as keeps his own useless blog updated with things no one cares about. He has an unhealthy relationship with Russian literature, and a very healthy relationship with zombie movies."

And, it may be worth adding, he supports his opinions about Gonzaga players with cold hard facts.

A rarity on this site.

Zag 77
02-25-2014, 09:19 PM
Might be interesting for some Few critics to read this gentleman's article vis-a-vis Coleman:


People call for Gerard Coleman and when he doesn't show up, they call for Mark Few's head. People are wrong.

The visual example is exactly what I was talking about supra

Vanzagger
02-26-2014, 06:56 AM
Funny. This guy writes some words about...Mark Few good...Gerald Coleman bad. Let's here his prediction about how far Few's game management is going to take another top 20 team.

People predicting Few being able to do what he is suppose to....another rarity on this board.

zenith
02-26-2014, 10:50 AM
At this point, I'm wondering if his playing time is about his body language. For almost the entire second half he had a towel on his head while sitting on the bench. Did not seem engaged in the game. Not sure I can blame him if sees the writing on the wall. I wonder if he was thinking what a lot of folks were thinking...."I can score against this team. I can get to the rim and at least draw some fouls like I did in the first half."

Would have been interested to know if he finally said something about getting pulled and Few sat him. Doesn't make sense that in a game where we needed dribble penetration, our best player at getting to the rim was a spectator.

He sits while Stockton plays is it ridiculous, he comes from the Big East, he is a better athlete, quicker, etc.. why we play 3 guards is nuts no ones attacks the basket, When Coleman and Nunez get the ball they attack. The other guys should take note while they are putting up the little floaters. At San Diego, the floaters by the other guards got to be silly. Coleman and Nunez need way more minutes. Don't blame him for saying something if that indeed happened. All in all I agree with you.

Zagceo
02-26-2014, 10:57 AM
And, it may be worth adding, he supports his opinions about Gonzaga players with cold hard facts.

A rarity on this site.

At least he admits when he is wrong.

http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac342/ceo_500/ScreenShot2014-02-26at115502AM_zpsc6384b56.png

slam dunk
02-26-2014, 12:09 PM
With the very tight and short leash coach Few has with most of the bench players we will never get the chance to see how well Coleman would do with more minutes under his belt...alas maybe next year....

kclubfounder
02-26-2014, 07:19 PM
At least he admits when he is wrong.

http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac342/ceo_500/ScreenShot2014-02-26at115502AM_zpsc6384b56.png

Do you have a clue how ironic this post of yours is?

Doubtful.

RenoZag
02-26-2014, 08:18 PM
We had an NBA player go to GU and never even lace them up. That's how talented we have been

Who ?

northsidezagfan
02-26-2014, 08:56 PM
Who ?

Mahinmi?

Ekrub
02-26-2014, 09:15 PM
Who ?

Will foster?

RenoZag
02-26-2014, 09:17 PM
Will foster?


Foster "laced them up". . .

vandalzag
02-27-2014, 07:30 AM
Who ?

Mario Kusan clearing issues, I think that the NCAA cleared him right after he declared for the draft or they changed the rules and he would have been ok to play. He would have been a good one.

Zagceo
02-27-2014, 07:43 AM
Do you have a clue how ironic this post of yours is?

Doubtful.

Thanks for the attack since I just pointed out the writers own error and believed I was giving him more creditability. Mr Doubtful

exclusivelee
02-28-2014, 07:48 AM
Gerard Coleman was feeding Drew Barham really well, assisting in 11 of Barham's 17 points last night (3 3's and a layup)

Coleman had 4 assists last night, all dished off to Barham

Coleman acted like he would drive toward the basket but instead, he would make a no look pass to Barham for a wide open 3 or a layup. Huge contribution from Coleman last night

cjm720
02-28-2014, 08:26 AM
That was a real nice improvised pass to DB...nice cut down the baseline by DB and finish of course.

Zippyzaggy
02-28-2014, 03:11 PM
Rewatch the game. Shem made a shot from about 15 feet out after a whistle. And look further back in this season and Shem hit a jumper from around the free throw line (and he wasn't shooting a free throw)

LOL, Oh yeah...I forgot about that shot Shem drilled AFTER the whistle. It was a thing of beauty.

As far as rewatching the game, I deleted it from my DVR. Will be needing to save extra DVR space for all the Ws that are yet to come this season. :)

Zippyzaggy
02-28-2014, 03:15 PM
You tube highlight real he is bottom of the net on several J's

Sure, I know Shem can do it. It's just that I'd like to see it in an actual live Zag game. Certainly he'll hit at least one this season? He's airballed more free throws than he has hit shots that were not of the put back, dunk or hook variety. sigh*