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gamagin
02-21-2014, 09:00 AM
Quote in Fri. Am spokane paper from KP:
"we didn't get some rebounds. We needed some loose balls. We just couldn't get the lead.
" we just have to scrap it out a little more. I know some guys were afraid of fouling ( out) but we have to find a way to get those (50-50) balls because those are possessions and they turned into buckets for them."

My immediate thought is that is what I saw. Hesitation. Reluctance to take risks or shots. Frustration. Didn't think the reluctance was self preservation. Hadn't looked at it that way before. Saving oneself is a long ways from going after it.

Our opponents who have beaten us ALL just went all out for 40 mins and counted on us to fold. And we did. Hard to imagine guys hoarding p.t. though, by playing it safe.

Mr Vulture
02-21-2014, 09:06 AM
I do not agree with the fact that we have folded in our games. Let's stop with this constant train of thought, meaning as a group not you personally, every time we lose. This is not a great team, it is a good one. We can play with anyone but we also have very little margin of error. Nothing has changed from yesterday, a week ago, or a month ago...this team is somewhere in the 7-10 seed range in the tournament. I have a very long winded version of my views but am waiting to post until after the conclusion of the conference tournament. A short thought is that we have to realize that we lost an NBA lottery pick and a four year starter from last years team along with the ultimate team guy...it's a transition year to a point. We are fine and will be very good next year IMO.

adoptedzag
02-21-2014, 09:07 AM
Can you blame them though? They got playing time by being safe, making the extra pass, not taking the shot unless they were WIDE open, passing up good shots in hopes of getting a better one later. If not, the leash was yanked and they were riding the pine. If you instill those values on them, they become robotic, which works sometimes but when you need a bucket, you need an alpha out there who says, "screw it, I'm jacking up the first good look, or driving to the basket to make something happen and if coach yanks me, he yanks me". We don't have that guy, all our guys are soft and afraid.

I love our team but we need to go back and watch videos of Stepp, Morrison, Calvary, tough guys who willed their team to win. We won a lot of these types of games because we had 1 more Adam Morrison than the other team did.

Zagceo
02-21-2014, 09:09 AM
Can you blame them though? They got playing time by being safe, making the extra pass, not taking the shot unless they were WIDE open, passing up good shots in hopes of getting a better one later. If not, the leash was yanked and they were riding the pine. If you instill those values on them, they become robotic, which works sometimes but when you need a bucket, you need an alpha out there who says, "screw it, I'm jacking up the first good look, or driving to the basket to make something happen and if coach yanks me, he yanks me". We don't have that guy, all our guys are soft and afraid.

I love our team but we need to go back and watch videos of Stepp, Morrison, Calvary, tough guys who willed their team to win. We won a lot of these types of games because we had 1 more Adam Morrison than the other team did.

agree 100%

Past teams always included "Gonzaga Toughness"! This team not so much.

gamagin
02-21-2014, 09:20 AM
I do not agree with the fact that we have folded in our games. Let's stop with this constant train of thought, meaning as a group not you personally, every time we lose. This is not a great team, it is a good one. We can play with anyone but we also have very little margin of error. Nothing has changed from yesterday, a week ago, or a month ago...this team is somewhere in the 7-10 seed range in the tournament. I have a very long winded version of my views but am waiting to post until after the conclusion of the conference tournament. A short thought is that we have to realize that we lost an NBA lottery pick and a four year starter from last years team along with the ultimate team guy...it's a transition year to a point. We are fine and will be very good next year IMO.

Look, when you have violette, who works for GU radio and was a great zag boarder in his day, complaining about the collapse ( folding) of the offensive game vis a vis putting the pressure (passing the ball) back, too often, for a lesser option. When Few pipes in. And KP adds his frustration, etc., I'm not sure a lid could be put on it.

This is a matter of going for it with existing team and players. And winning with same. It isn't about getting beat so much as it is about beating ourselves. IMO.

That said, I agree with you re the losses and limitations. But these guys are playing strangely and many are flummoxed with what's happening. KP shone a little light on this for me. So I shared it. I don't consider going for it a a permanent flaw. It can be fixed. FWiw & IMO.

MDABE80
02-21-2014, 09:49 AM
"HE" is not the problem. WHo is "HE".?

WBM
02-21-2014, 09:56 AM
Calls out what I saw. We didn't play them tough enough during the first 35 minutes (gave up touch fouls for easy And-1's), and when Sam & Shem had 4 each, I was almost hoping for one of them to foul out so Edwards could go in and bang.

vandalzag
02-21-2014, 10:11 AM
Calls out what I saw. We didn't play them tough enough during the first 35 minutes (gave up touch fouls for easy And-1's), and when Sam & Shem had 4 each, I was almost hoping for one of them to foul out so Edwards could go in and bang.

You wanted Dower who had 14 and 8 with 2 blocks in 20 minutes to foul out. That is a brilliant strategy. Most coaches would want their leader in scoring and rebounding to stay in the game, but you may on to something.

Pangos should go easy with calling his team out, 39 minutes with one rebound does not really show him as scrapping for the 50/50 balls. The GU guards were -8 on the rebound ledger so he may want to own up to some of that. You can be portrayed as the alpha, if you do not act like the alpha.

vandalzag
02-21-2014, 10:15 AM
Can you blame them though? They got playing time by being safe, making the extra pass, not taking the shot unless they were WIDE open, passing up good shots in hopes of getting a better one later. If not, the leash was yanked and they were riding the pine. If you instill those values on them, they become robotic, which works sometimes but when you need a bucket, you need an alpha out there who says, "screw it, I'm jacking up the first good look, or driving to the basket to make something happen and if coach yanks me, he yanks me". We don't have that guy, all our guys are soft and afraid.

I love our team but we need to go back and watch videos of Stepp, Morrison, Calvary, tough guys who willed their team to win. We won a lot of these types of games because we had 1 more Adam Morrison than the other team did.

Please give an example of Few pulling a player for taking and missing a good shot (not a Coleman 1 on 3 shot, but a good shot that may have been contested). There should be plenty since you are asserting that every player is afraid of shooting because Few will pull them. Feel free to give multiple examples.

Zagceo
02-21-2014, 10:19 AM
Calls out what I saw. We didn't play them tough enough during the first 35 minutes (gave up touch fouls for easy And-1's), and when Sam & Shem had 4 each, I was almost hoping for one of them to foul out so Edwards could go in and bang.

Edwards was banging and he made them feel his fouls and a couple of times Edwards got away with hard play.

Zagceo
02-21-2014, 10:21 AM
Please give an example of Few pulling a player for taking and missing a good shot (not a Coleman 1 on 3 shot, but a good shot that may have been contested). There should be plenty since you are asserting that every player is afraid of shooting because Few will pull them. Feel free to give multiple examples.

He pulled Nunez and Pangos last night. Pangos shot an air ball from 3 point line.

adoptedzag
02-21-2014, 10:25 AM
Please give an example of Few pulling a player for taking and missing a good shot (not a Coleman 1 on 3 shot, but a good shot that may have been contested). There should be plenty since you are asserting that every player is afraid of shooting because Few will pull them. Feel free to give multiple examples.

Since you nixed Coleman's example: Every time Drew, Gary, and Draino pump fakes a semi contested shot, every time Angel hesitates on driving. I didn't record last night's game, but I'll come back after USD and give examples with time stamps. The main theme though is that there is punitive reinforcement for aggression rather than positive.

CDC84
02-21-2014, 10:35 AM
Pangos shot an air ball from 3 point line.

Pangos was taken out after that air ball because he was flat out exhausted. It was a good shot that he missed because he had no legs. Kev also felt he was fouled on the elbow.

vandalzag
02-21-2014, 10:40 AM
He pulled Nunez and Pangos last night. Pangos shot an air ball from 3 point line.
Pangos played 39 minutes, he pulled him 1 minute before the 8 minute timeout to give him the blow. Panogs would be the worst example, he has the ultimate green light from Few to shoot. Nunez needed a map to find out where to go on offense, just like every other game when he played against a zone defense.
Those are two terrible examples. In order to say players are afraid of shooting you would have to talk about the players that are actually passing up shots (KD,Bell,Barham). Do you have any actual examples of Few's short leash?

vandalzag
02-21-2014, 10:46 AM
Since you nixed Coleman's example: Every time Drew, Gary, and Draino pump fakes a semi contested shot, every time Angel hesitates on driving. I didn't record last night's game, but I'll come back after USD and give examples with time stamps. The main theme though is that there is punitive reinforcement for aggression rather than positive.

Coleman gets the hook when he completely forces the issue a 1 on 3 shot is the same as a throwing the ball away. So are you saying that the players are getting pulled because they hesitate? Because I can't recall a time that KD, Gary or Drew was pulled for taking a shot. Few is actually asking Gary and others to look to shoot. If you have ever seen/heard him coach (practice, clinic,etc..) you would see that his offense is predicated upon players seeking shots not passing them up. Passing a good shot for a great shot is one thing, but he does not and has not every yanked players for taking good shots.

drvenkman05
02-21-2014, 10:48 AM
Since you nixed Coleman's example: Every time Drew, Gary, and Draino pump fakes a semi contested shot, every time Angel hesitates on driving. I didn't record last night's game, but I'll come back after USD and give examples with time stamps. The main theme though is that there is punitive reinforcement for aggression rather than positive.

Point of parliamentary procedure! Reinforcement increases the future probability of behavior; therefore, what we have is Few administering punitive punishment for being aggressive (sorry, I couldn't help myself).

You are spot on!

WBM
02-21-2014, 10:56 AM
You wanted Dower who had 14 and 8 with 2 blocks in 20 minutes to foul out. That is a brilliant strategy. Most coaches would want their leader in scoring and rebounding to stay in the game, but you may on to something.

Pangos should go easy with calling his team out, 39 minutes with one rebound does not really show him as scrapping for the 50/50 balls. The GU guards were -8 on the rebound ledger so he may want to own up to some of that. You can be portrayed as the alpha, if you do not act like the alpha.

You and I saw the same game, Vandal. Sam put in a good performance, and honestly he's the only one who really boarded at all, aside from Kyle. With time running out and the situation unchanged, I was ALMOST hoping for one of them to foul out so someone who had a few fouls to give could get in there and play more aggressive. I was REALLY hoping that the guys on the floor could start to click offensively and get a stop or two, but that wasn't happening.

My preference is never for a Zag to foul out, especially Sam. Our formula wasn't working, and a change of personnel down low might have had a positive effect. I do believe Sam & Przemek were both playing timid in the final minutes on defense, which is understandable because of the way the calls were going.

vandalzag
02-21-2014, 11:00 AM
You and I saw the same game, Vandal. Sam put in a good performance, and honestly he's the only one who really boarded at all, aside from Kyle. With time running out and the situation unchanged, I was ALMOST hoping for one of them to foul out so someone who had a few fouls to give could get in there and play more aggressive. I was REALLY hoping that the guys on the floor could start to click offensively and get a stop or two, but that wasn't happening.

My preference is never for a Zag to foul out, especially Sam. Our formula wasn't working, and a change of personnel down low might have had a positive affect. I do believe Sam & Przemek were both playing timid in the final minutes on defense, which is understandable because of the way the calls were going.
Agreed both players had to limit the aggressiveness due to the stripes. I would like to have seen Edwards more and even Luke rotated in for PK a little more since he just looked tuned out after he got his 2nd foul (which was a bad call).

Chicken Ball
02-21-2014, 11:42 AM
Can you blame them though? They got playing time by being safe, making the extra pass, not taking the shot unless they were WIDE open, passing up good shots in hopes of getting a better one later. If not, the leash was yanked and they were riding the pine. If you instill those values on them, they become robotic, which works sometimes but when you need a bucket, you need an alpha out there who says, "screw it, I'm jacking up the first good look, or driving to the basket to make something happen and if coach yanks me, he yanks me". We don't have that guy, all our guys are soft and afraid.

I love our team but we need to go back and watch videos of Stepp, Morrison, Calvary, tough guys who willed their team to win. We won a lot of these types of games because we had 1 more Adam Morrison than the other team did.

What I think is missing here is the acknowledgment that Stepp, Morrison, and Calvary would instantly be the best player on this team. They willed their team to win because they were incredibly good, much better than any individual on this year's team.

Vanzagger
02-21-2014, 11:46 AM
I think Pangos is the best PG in the country. Give him the ball and let him lead.

Pargo the Destroyer
02-21-2014, 12:09 PM
You wanted Dower who had 14 and 8 with 2 blocks in 20 minutes to foul out. That is a brilliant strategy. Most coaches would want their leader in scoring and rebounding to stay in the game, but you may on to something.

Pangos should go easy with calling his team out, 39 minutes with one rebound does not really show him as scrapping for the 50/50 balls. The GU guards were -8 on the rebound ledger so he may want to own up to some of that. You can be portrayed as the alpha, if you do not act like the alpha.

He is the leader of this team. Its his job to call out his guys. And for what its worth, I remember ONE guy hitting the deck for a loose ball last night. It was Kevin. He is leaving it on the court. I cant say the same for many others. Sam maybe. Kyle maybe. GC. And Ryan in his short stint, minus him trying to lay the ball in, and missing, when he should have dunked it. At this point Bell is just an afterthought. Having a baby is a life altering event for sure. Maybe thats it.

cjm720
02-21-2014, 12:10 PM
What I think is missing here is the acknowledgment that Stepp, Morrison, and Calvary would instantly be the best player on this team. They willed their team to win because they were incredibly good, much better than any individual on this year's team.

The coach was way better then too

Zagceo
02-21-2014, 12:54 PM
The coach was way better then too

I think thats unfair even if Monson did take us to the elite 8 with Calary.

Baseline
02-21-2014, 01:02 PM
Its my perception from watching the games that if your not a starter and take a shot it best go in or your time is limited. The guys truly look scared out there, that is not how you win tough games with guys afraid to be spontaneous. Its a statistical thing, much of the time it works, with Few at 80+% ins, but if your dealt a bad hand or face tough opponents, that becomes even tougher.

I have been amazed that players that come in described as real shooters, quickly become hesitant and not what they once were in scoring. When was the last time Gonzaga had someone exceed expectations in their scoring. Rarely does anyone go off fore a big night. By going off I mean 30+ points.

I think there is a problem somewhere, but I can't put my finger on what is the real cause.

cjm720
02-21-2014, 01:20 PM
I think thats unfair even if Monson did take us to the elite 8 with Calary.

I was joking...Few was there for 2 of the 3 S16 runs if my memory is correct.

ZAGGED OUT
02-21-2014, 01:55 PM
He's kinda right.. But he's forgetting he's been pretty bad for the last several weeks AND usually sucks on the road and has since he got here, so there's that


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So lets blame the guy who's suffered from turf toe and rolled ankles for months. We all know he can be better on the road, but KP is probably the most clutch player on the team. In addition, some of his more clutch plays have come away from home. Even when he's cold, and having a bad night, KP has shown the ability to hit big shots.

Guys were definitely not scrapping last night, passes were lazy, and we were tentative at attacking the rim through their zone. Lets try to look at the reasons the TEAM lost instead of blasting one player, ya?


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ZAGGED OUT
02-21-2014, 02:04 PM
Lol ok Milano, guys call out a lack of hustle all the time, you're ragging on a player wen I think you forget he's had some pretty big moments on the road and he's played through a lot of injuries this year.


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ZAGGED OUT
02-21-2014, 02:24 PM
Even last night, we wouldn't have even had a hope if he didn't hit a deep 3 off the offensive board.


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vandalzag
02-21-2014, 02:34 PM
[/B]

He is the leader of this team. Its his job to call out his guys. And for what its worth, I remember ONE guy hitting the deck for a loose ball last night. It was Kevin. He is leaving it on the court. I cant say the same for many others. Sam maybe. Kyle maybe. GC. And Ryan in his short stint, minus him trying to lay the ball in, and missing, when he should have dunked it. At this point Bell is just an afterthought. Having a baby is a life altering event for sure. Maybe thats it.

I agree he is the leader of the team and he did hit the floor last night, but so did others(Sam played his butt off, do not know how you could say maybe with 8 boards in 20 minutes, same with KD and Edwards). But when you have 1 rebound and 2 personal fouls and you try to call people out for not going after the 50/50 balls and being afraid to foul out , you come across a little short of being a leader.

ZAGGED OUT
02-21-2014, 03:54 PM
Like I said, I'd like to him to play better on the road, but at te same time he's made some great plays and had great games on the road. Buzzer beater vs wsu, sealing the game at WVU, outplaying Marcus Smart on smarts home court, destroying Maui for 25+ a game. I'm bringing it up because your post seemed pretty rash. We can look at %'s all we want, that still doesn't mean he's incapable on the road. I'd rather he have the ball in his hands in the last 30 seconds on the road, even if he is having a a bad night.


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Zagger
02-21-2014, 04:42 PM
This team has gotten very predictable and BYU took full advantage of it. Something definitely needs to change. All of the players are better than they've been playing.

Saxon_zag
02-22-2014, 10:51 AM
AGree with this post. The players few ends up liking are the ones that play robotic and then in the end, they all want to pass it to the other guy for him to take the big shot... Watched KD and GB pass up open 3's on possessions in crunch time. I think Mark Few has shrunk the whole teams balls with his insanely short leashes..... FREE COLEMAN AND NUNEZ

DixieZag
02-22-2014, 11:53 AM
AGree with this post. The players few ends up liking are the ones that play robotic and then in the end, they all want to pass it to the other guy for him to take the big shot... Watched KD and GB pass up open 3's on possessions in crunch time. I think Mark Few has shrunk the whole teams balls with his insanely short leashes..... FREE COLEMAN AND NUNEZ

This.

Vandal I like your posts and you bring some people to reality but not everything can be shown on the stat book and I think you've watched the team long enough that with the eye test, it should feels like something is causing these guys to be hesitant and it's a pattern going back for years. The Zags made their name knocking off big teams, that rarely happens anymore. I can't remember when we last won a game where we were not the favorite.

As for this being a rebuilding year, yes, it is and at first blush, winning the conference and probably going to the tourney in a rebuilding year is pretty good. But, the question is more, is this team as good as it should be? I don't think so. I think there are a lot of pieces not being used well. I never understood the three small guard line-up, if it is Stockton that gets the ball in the middle, fine, start him I guess. But it is really redundant having Stockton bring the ball up and Kevin and Gary also running around the arc. In the last game, I saw Kevin bringing the ball up fairly often - and Stockton playing the 2, I guess. That makes no sense.

Yep, Coleman and Nunez can make idiotic plays. And the way to teach them to knock it off is to play them and then get on them, big time. It takes playing to get a feel for how it's supposed to be done.

I don't think people are upset that we're not winning as much as last year. It's that we're not playing anywhere near as well as we're able to. In the last six weeks we've lost at Portland, should have lost at SCU, lost a game we should have won at Memphis, tried to lose to Portland again and seemed to get out willed by BYU. It's discouraging.

primal23
02-22-2014, 12:22 PM
AGree with this post. The players few ends up liking are the ones that play robotic and then in the end, they all want to pass it to the other guy for him to take the big shot... Watched KD and GB pass up open 3's on possessions in crunch time. I think Mark Few has shrunk the whole teams balls with his insanely short leashes..... FREE COLEMAN AND NUNEZ

Probably will be free, doubt they stay after this year. Both have promise and both have flaws. But both will probably just get further down on the bench.

vandalzag
02-22-2014, 03:38 PM
This.

Vandal I like your posts and you bring some people to reality but not everything can be shown on the stat book and I think you've watched the team long enough that with the eye test, it should feels like something is causing these guys to be hesitant and it's a pattern going back for years. The Zags made their name knocking off big teams, that rarely happens anymore. I can't remember when we last won a game where we were not the favorite.

As for this being a rebuilding year, yes, it is and at first blush, winning the conference and probably going to the tourney in a rebuilding year is pretty good. But, the question is more, is this team as good as it should be? I don't think so. I think there are a lot of pieces not being used well. I never understood the three small guard line-up, if it is Stockton that gets the ball in the middle, fine, start him I guess. But it is really redundant having Stockton bring the ball up and Kevin and Gary also running around the arc. In the last game, I saw Kevin bringing the ball up fairly often - and Stockton playing the 2, I guess. That makes no sense.

Yep, Coleman and Nunez can make idiotic plays. And the way to teach them to knock it off is to play them and then get on them, big time. It takes playing to get a feel for how it's supposed to be done.

I don't think people are upset that we're not winning as much as last year. It's that we're not playing anywhere near as well as we're able to. In the last six weeks we've lost at Portland, should have lost at SCU, lost a game we should have won at Memphis, tried to lose to Portland again and seemed to get out willed by BYU. It's discouraging.

The reason Few has a quick hook with kids is based upon mistakes made outside the system. The system is what has enabled the school to achieve success without having marquee (top 20 players) and also allowed lesser known and/or skilled players to develop into top level performers. Having kids play within a system does not make them robotic. Phil Jackson ran Tex Winters triangle offense, success was found when his best players bought into the system (MJ, Kobe, Shaq). When those players did the team won. Name a successful coach in college and they all had systems. Kids who do not buy in do not play. I have said it before, Coleman's playing time right now is a fact of others playing better than him (DS and KD). But Coleman's game is so too one dimensional that he is not built for extended playing time. His aggression is best served in doses (I agree that he should have played more in the 2nd half at BYU). GU will not win with Coleman throwing up 15 plus shots a game. He is aggressive and can be an asset but not as the focus of the offense. Coleman is not a Morrison or Dickau level scorer where you abandon your principles in order for him to be successful. His game is open court or one on one. He needs to get into space to play, so when your team is not rebounding you are left with running and isolation game, which would only suit him. Nunez is raw and will develop, but the game is too quick for him right now, but in time it will come. He came here to become a better player, he must have seen something in the system that would do that for him.

I really do not understand the discouraging thought on this team. I do not think they have peaked, nor have the under performed. The team has been successful and is at where most thought they would be at the beginning of the season.

Vanzagger
02-22-2014, 04:04 PM
Lesser talent? we had a dozen guys playing summer league the last 2 years. We have 3 of our bench warmers that may be in the dance this year.

I agree with Saxon. Let it hang out Mark!

bballbeachbum
02-22-2014, 04:59 PM
need to make plays on the road. this team looked great early in the WCC season with all those home games in a row, made some numbers look great. and they should have after that stretch, but the road has been a different animal

northsidezagfan
02-22-2014, 05:37 PM
You realize basically anybody who played significant college minutes is good enough for summer league, right? No you don't realize that


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This is not even close to true.

spike_jr
02-22-2014, 08:37 PM
The reason Few has a quick hook with kids is based upon mistakes made outside the system. The system is what has enabled the school to achieve success without having marquee (top 20 players) and also allowed lesser known and/or skilled players to develop into top level performers. Having kids play within a system does not make them robotic. Phil Jackson ran Tex Winters triangle offense, success was found when his best players bought into the system (MJ, Kobe, Shaq). When those players did the team won. Name a successful coach in college and they all had systems. Kids who do not buy in do not play. I have said it before, Coleman's playing time right now is a fact of others playing better than him (DS and KD). But Coleman's game is so too one dimensional that he is not built for extended playing time. His aggression is best served in doses (I agree that he should have played more in the 2nd half at BYU). GU will not win with Coleman throwing up 15 plus shots a game. He is aggressive and can be an asset but not as the focus of the offense. Coleman is not a Morrison or Dickau level scorer where you abandon your principles in order for him to be successful. His game is open court or one on one. He needs to get into space to play, so when your team is not rebounding you are left with running and isolation game, which would only suit him. Nunez is raw and will develop, but the game is too quick for him right now, but in time it will come. He came here to become a better player, he must have seen something in the system that would do that for him.

I really do not understand the discouraging thought on this team. I do not think they have peaked, nor have the under performed. The team has been successful and is at where most thought they would be at the beginning of the season.

Hey Vandal, how many dimensions does DS have to his game (I will give you a hint, it is less than 2)? He can pass.... and? Can he defend? Can he shoot it? The kid has a place in the game and he has earned minutes. But if you think the zags are going to beat good teams with DS starting at point, KP defending and being defended by the other team's 2 and 6'-1" GB playing the three, well I guess we can just agree to disagree.

Saxon_zag
02-23-2014, 09:48 AM
Hey Vandal, how many dimensions does DS have to his game (I will give you a hint, it is less than 2)? He can pass.... and? Can he defend? Can he shoot it? The kid has a place in the game and he has earned minutes. But if you think the zags are going to beat good teams with DS starting at point, KP defending and being defended by the other team's 2 and 6'-1" GB playing the three, well I guess we can just agree to disagree.


Lol THANK YOU.

Its all justifications. Coleman is one dimensional and best served in doses but stockton is > 1 dimension and should stay in for the long haul??? No. The team gets better results over a long period of time if Coleman was closer to 30 mins a game than stocks

vandalzag
02-23-2014, 11:44 AM
Lol THANK YOU.

Its all justifications. Coleman is one dimensional and best served in doses but stockton is > 1 dimension and should stay in for the long haul??? No. The team gets better results over a long period of time if Coleman was closer to 30 mins a game than stocks

The point is not Stocks over Coleman. That being said Stockton still shoots it better from outside (lesser of two evils argument). Defensively they are close but Coleman is better. The difference is that DS makes others better, Coleman playing 30 minutes would put his shot rate at over 20 per game, that would not equal wins for GU. If all you can do is take it to the rim with your left hand and you jack up 20 shots you will have 4 guys standing around doing nothing, that is a one dimensional player. Starting means nothing, minutes played is the mark. DS is playing 28 minutes a game and averages 5 shots. GC plays 12 minutes and averages 5 shots a game. This takes it back around to my original point that Few does not pull kids for shooting or making mistakes as long as it comes within the confines of the system.
That being said Coleman should have played more last night, especially in the 2nd half but it was not Stockton keeping him on the on the bench. KD and Barham had a a ton of empty minutes on the floor, as well as Pangos.

jim77
02-23-2014, 11:47 AM
Don't Forget about Adam flipping off a fan after draining the 3....Morrison had enough for the other team AND their fans....Morrison Rocks!

northsidezagfan
02-23-2014, 12:27 PM
The point is not Stocks over Coleman. That being said Stockton still shoots it better from outside (lesser of two evils argument). Defensively they are close but Coleman is better. The difference is that DS makes others better, Coleman playing 30 minutes would put his shot rate at over 20 per game, that would not equal wins for GU. If all you can do is take it to the rim with your left hand and you jack up 20 shots you will have 4 guys standing around doing nothing, that is a one dimensional player. Starting means nothing, minutes played is the mark. DS is playing 28 minutes a game and averages 5 shots. GC plays 12 minutes and averages 5 shots a game. This takes it back around to my original point that Few does not pull kids for shooting or making mistakes as long as it comes within the confines of the system.
That being said Coleman should have played more last night, especially in the 2nd half but it was not Stockton keeping him on the on the bench. KD and Barham had a a ton of empty minutes on the floor, as well as Pangos.

For one thing, 30 minutes a game for Coleman would put him at 13.5 shots a game not 20. And extrapolating his scoring would be 16.5/30 minutes. Definitely not stats that say he shoots too much.
If he still makes over half of those 13.5 shots, who cares if it is "within the system" or not? His game is in transition and driving to the hoop. If Few wants to not play him because of this, he should never have recruited him.
Coleman has only once been over this 13.5 shots in a game, and that game we beat the #### out of a top-100 RPI New Mexico St team. And if you want to extrapolate his number of shots, do the same for his assists. He would have 2 a game if he played 30 minutes. No, not earth-shattering and not as many as our PG's, but he does plenty to keep defenses honest when he drives, especially in more recent games. He isn't out there to "make players better" the way a PG does, he is out there to score.
Saying Coleman shoots too much to deserve more minutes is a weak argument to get Few off the hook. There is no evidence that Coleman shooting is bad for the Zags. Small sample size but we are 5-1 when he shoots over 10 times. Like you said, he should play more.

wnczagfan
02-23-2014, 12:35 PM
Like I said, I'd like to him to play better on the road, but at te same time he's made some great plays and had great games on the road. Buzzer beater vs wsu, sealing the game at WVU, outplaying Marcus Smart on smarts home court, destroying Maui for 25+ a game. I'm bringing it up because your post seemed pretty rash. We can look at %'s all we want, that still doesn't mean he's incapable on the road. I'd rather he have the ball in his hands in the last 30 seconds on the road, even if he is having a a bad night.


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After watching last night, I'd rather Stockton have the ball in his hands the last 30 seconds. LOL

vandalzag
02-23-2014, 12:48 PM
For one thing, 30 minutes a game for Coleman would put him at 13.5 shots a game not 20. And extrapolating his scoring would be 16.5/30 minutes. Definitely not stats that say he shoots too much.
If he still makes over half of those 13.5 shots, who cares if it is "within the system" or not? His game is in transition and driving to the hoop. If Few wants to not play him because of this, he should never have recruited him.
Coleman has only once been over this 13.5 shots in a game, and that game we beat the #### out of a top-100 RPI New Mexico St team. And if you want to extrapolate his number of shots, do the same for his assists. He would have 2 a game if he played 30 minutes. No, not earth-shattering and not as many as our PG's, but he does plenty to keep defenses honest when he drives, especially in more recent games. He isn't out there to "make players better" the way a PG does, he is out there to score.
Saying Coleman shoots too much to deserve more minutes is a weak argument to get Few off the hook. There is no evidence that Coleman shooting is bad for the Zags. Small sample size but we are 5-1 when he shoots over 10 times. Like you said, he should play more.

Bad math on my part (my first post said 15 shots). As I said he should have played more. His roll should be to come in when and shake things up. The 10 plus shots he hoisted were against bad teams (except Memphis). His game is predicated on open court and to get that the Zags have to rebound. In the half court it has not worked out well, he is not a franchise scorer. I would like to see Few break out the old 3/4 court press with Coleman and Nunez on the floor to shake things up and play to their strengths. I would have liked to see him playing more last night, last night was a head scratcher since Barham and KD had a ton of empty minutes. His best attribute is as a spark and change of pace player, not as the focus of the offense.

HillBillyZag
02-23-2014, 02:08 PM
Three Benchwarmers? Good Grief, I can guarantee you if Spangler was available he would have been starting all season. And at 80% of what he was?, before his injury, Grant Gibbs would have seen major minutes, perhaps many starts? Give me Dower, Spangler, and Edwards up front, with Pangos and Gibbs at the guards and I'll beat any other five Zags now on the roster.

Saxon_zag
02-23-2014, 03:40 PM
Gibbs is a 6th year senior that got a special exception to get this last year. He wouldn't still be here so kind of hard to count that against us still lol.


But yeah Coleman for more minutes.

HillBillyZag
02-23-2014, 06:48 PM
How would I be against you?, us?, whom? I'm a Zags fan like yourself, nothing more, nothing less. I'm admittedly a hell of a lot older and I appreciate structured offense and zone "D" but then I'm not the Coach, so I root for the Zags to come out ahead irregardless of who?, leads the stats.I will say this though, I've watched about a half dozen OU games so far, and I havn't seen anything yet to make me think Spangler couldn't start for G.U?