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hooter73
02-20-2014, 09:14 PM
Box score:
http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400506793

I got nuttin... and neither did we. We really didnt play all that bad, but BYU didnt play all that great either.

No one really thought we'd run the table but some how this one kinda stinks. Fun minutes from Edwards. Stockton gave his haters something to smile about with 6 turnovers, good stat line from Dower and yet another amazing stat line from Draginis.

Mantua
02-20-2014, 09:15 PM
Hit delete and move on.

Go Zags!

Ezag
02-20-2014, 09:16 PM
Did I just rewatch the Memphis game?

Angelo Roncalli
02-20-2014, 09:16 PM
Absolutely killed on the boards in the second half.

Ezag
02-20-2014, 09:17 PM
On bright side, Edwards looked great so let's keep him on the bench and play Karno

kitzbuel
02-20-2014, 09:17 PM
Absolutely killed on the boards in the second half.

Yeah, I don't get that.

zagapotomus
02-20-2014, 09:17 PM
Forget about shooting, byu owned the boards. Knew where to be and when.

ZenZag
02-20-2014, 09:17 PM
No rebounds, no inside game = no win.

BigZagFan
02-20-2014, 09:17 PM
Karno with 1 rebound

ZagaZags
02-20-2014, 09:19 PM
Box score:
http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400506793

I got nuttin... and neither did we. We really didnt play all that bad, but BYU didnt play all that great either.

Edwards did very well tonight. Lucky to have him as a Zag. 29-5

jazzdelmar
02-20-2014, 09:19 PM
I said so three months ago, Edwards should be starting.

surfmonkey89
02-20-2014, 09:20 PM
I said so three months ago, Edwards should be starting.

Over whom?

Ezag
02-20-2014, 09:21 PM
I said so three months ago, Edwards should be starting.

+1000. Better hands, better rebounder, better finisher, better free throw shooter, more athletic

kitzbuel
02-20-2014, 09:21 PM
On bright side, Edwards looked great so let's keep him on the bench and play Karno

I think Edwards did exactly what he had to do. Suck up minutes while SD and PK were out. With Mika also being out, he made BYU pay. That forced BYU to keep Mika in when he subbed in later. Almost got Mika to foul out.

zagapotomus
02-20-2014, 09:21 PM
With such limited minutes, can you really predict Edwards would fare better than Karnowski?

Pargo the Destroyer
02-20-2014, 09:22 PM
Absolutely killed on the boards in the second half.

Anemic offense, bad defense and destroyed on the glass. 65 points against a terrible defensive team that's..... not going to cut it

jpn17
02-20-2014, 09:22 PM
As I stated in the game thread, the issues that have plagued Gonzaga all year got them again tonight. For me the biggest issue watching game after game is that Gonzaga doesn't appear to be getting any better. You watch the really great teams around the country and their games improve as the season goes on. With Gonzaga I don't see improvement, they're just stagnant. And stagnant may be good enough in the WCC. It's not in the NCAA tournament.

jazzdelmar
02-20-2014, 09:22 PM
Over whom?

Karno, of course. SD can at least shoot, tho he cannot board.

MJ777
02-20-2014, 09:22 PM
I said so three months ago, Edwards should be starting.

He could only play in 5 minute stretches. It looks like he needs to lose at least 20 pounds (I need to lose more than that), but he has soft hands and pretty good instincts.

kitzbuel
02-20-2014, 09:22 PM
I said so three months ago, Edwards should be starting.

You didn't really say that.

katman50
02-20-2014, 09:22 PM
Karno with 1 rebound

Unreal! Aside from Edwards, Dower and possibly Pangos, it was a disgraceful performance by the whole team. Stockton 2 pts and 4TO? But a big like Karno with only 1 rebound. I just shake my head. Time to move on to the next game, I guess. Again: woeful performance.

gonwick
02-20-2014, 09:22 PM
On the plus side, few only took two minutes to realize his repeat starting lineup was as ineffectual in the second half as it was in the first. Sure, it wasted time, but not as much as usual. Progress!

whatazag
02-20-2014, 09:23 PM
We don't have the talent advantage we've had in years past over other WCC teams, so if we don't play well, we are not always going to win.

jazzdelmar
02-20-2014, 09:23 PM
With such limited minutes, can you really predict Edwards would fare better than Karnowski?

Yes, absolutely.

roxdoc
02-20-2014, 09:23 PM
Karno: bad time to not show up

zagfan24
02-20-2014, 09:24 PM
Bad rebounding effort and slow defensive rotations.

Way too many "floaters" offensively.

Edwards should have played more IMO.

gamagin
02-20-2014, 09:24 PM
Shooters gotta shoot. Leaders gotta lead. BYU came w/fire & passion, went for it and got it. We didn't or couldn't or wouldn't take it right back & straight at them the way they took it to us.

Our D is good enuf to beat/stay with anyone, but the O has gone on sabbatical and it's killing us.

VinnyZag
02-20-2014, 09:26 PM
I must be the only person who is neither all that surprised nor all that disappointed.

BYU played its best defensive game of the year and won a home game that the Cougars absolutely had to have. I'd bet a lot of money on GU beating BYU on a neutral court. I think the Mariott Center crowd had a big impact, including on the guys in striped shirts.

Two stats stand out to me: Gary Bell 1-8 on 3s and Przemek Karnowski 1 rebound.

If both teams get to the title game in Vegas, as I think they will, I believe GU will win.

bballbeachbum
02-20-2014, 09:26 PM
Anemic offense, bad defense and destroyed on the glass. 65 points against a terrible defensive team that's..... not going to cut it

they were not terrible defensively tonight. matchup 3-2 zone stifled the perimeter and challenged the Zags to do what they struggle at most which is dribble penetration. Other teams are going to play GU the same way until they show they can beat it imo

bballbeachbum
02-20-2014, 09:26 PM
I must be the only person who is neither all that surprised nor all that disappointed.

BYU played its best defensive game of the year and won a home game that the Cougars absolutely had to have. I'd bet a lot of money on GU beating BYU on a neutral court. I think the Mariott Center crowd had a big impact, including on the guys in striped shirts.

Two stats stand out to me: Gary Bell 1-8 on 3s and Przemek Karnowski 1 rebound.

If both teams get to the title game in Vegas, as I think they will, I believe GU will win.

good post. agree on all. we'll see

jazzdelmar
02-20-2014, 09:26 PM
You didn't really say that.

I actually did. I said by the end of the year Edwards should be starting over Karno.

zagapotomus
02-20-2014, 09:27 PM
I actually did. I said by the end of the year Edwards should be starting over Karno.

Serious question, who would you rather have transfer, karno or edwards?

Hoopaholic
02-20-2014, 09:28 PM
Unreal! Aside from Edwards, Dower and possibly Pangos, it was a disgraceful performance by the whole team. Stockton 2 pts and 4TO? But a big like Karno with only 1 rebound. I just shake my head. Time to move on to the next game, I guess. Again: woeful performance.

Draino was solid. 6 rebounds 4 assists 3 steals 2-6 from floor and passed up couple open looks and missed some floaters but was solid

bballbeachbum
02-20-2014, 09:28 PM
Shooters gotta shoot. Leaders gotta lead. BYU came w/fire & passion, went for it and got it. We didn't or couldn't or wouldn't take it right back & straight at them the way they took it to us.

Our D is good enuf to beat anyone, but the O has gone on sabbatical and it's killing us.

agree about the O but not for the reasons you state...hunting shots, shooters gotta shoot, etc.

RenoZag
02-20-2014, 09:28 PM
I must be the only person who is neither all that surprised nor all that disappointed.



you are not alone, vinny.

ZagaZags
02-20-2014, 09:29 PM
you are not alone, vinny.

+1

Hoopaholic
02-20-2014, 09:29 PM
I must be the only person who is neither all that surprised nor all that disappointed.

BYU played its best defensive game of the year and won a home game that the Cougars absolutely had to have. I'd bet a lot of money on GU beating BYU on a neutral court. I think the Mariott Center crowd had a big impact, including on the guys in striped shirts.

Two stats stand out to me: Gary Bell 1-8 on 3s and Przemek Karnowski 1 rebound.

If both teams get to the title game in Vegas, as I think they will, I believe GU will win.

I am with you vinny . Shooting was off tonight and lacked desire at times but we get them on neutral court IMO

VinnyZag
02-20-2014, 09:30 PM
they were not terrible defensively tonight. matchup 3-2 zone stifled the perimeter and challenged the Zags to do what they struggle at most which is dribble penetration. Other teams are going to play GU the same way until they show they can beat it imo

Really, the struggles against zone defense are the big takeaway from this game. GU has shooters, but they're by and large small, and they can have a hard time getting jumpers against big defenders playing zone. Dranginis driving at the end was a bright spot.

jpn17
02-20-2014, 09:30 PM
I must be the only person who is neither all that surprised nor all that disappointed.

BYU played its best defensive game of the year and won a home game that the Cougars absolutely had to have. I'd bet a lot of money on GU beating BYU on a neutral court. I think the Mariott Center crowd had a big impact, including on the guys in striped shirts.

Two stats stand out to me: Gary Bell 1-8 on 3s and Przemek Karnowski 1 rebound.

If both teams get to the title game in Vegas, as I think they will, I believe GU will win.


I'm not surprised at all, but I am disappointed. Not so much in the loss, but in the fact they aren't improving their weakest areas as a team.

jazzdelmar
02-20-2014, 09:30 PM
Serious question, who would you rather have transfer, karno or edwards?

Neither is Joel Embiid but Edwards had more long term promise and Meikle is right there as well

a13coach
02-20-2014, 09:31 PM
Wasn't just the rebounding. The team didn't value possession of the ball enough tonight. Way too many sloppy passes, careless ball handling, not securing loose balls.

scott257
02-20-2014, 09:31 PM
I am not going to blame the officials like the BYU fans do after every loss. Our bigs play like they have no toughness in them. Edwards looked good and needs more time but he has to be more alert on defense. Pangos, Bell, and Stockton were outplayed tonight. I still would like to see Nunez and Coleman get more minutes on the floor at the same time. Even if they make some mistakes, they create some real match-up problems and they would probably open up the three for Pangos.

Zag 77
02-20-2014, 09:32 PM
Karnowski fumbled 3 or 4 passes into the post and was stripped a couple more times

+
Gary Bell had a bad shooting night

+
Dranginis and Barham sailed a couple of passes for turnovers

+
Mika was getting away with flopping and generous calls that put Karnowski and Dower in foul trouble

+BYU home court advantage and altitude

= 6 point loss.

zagapotomus
02-20-2014, 09:32 PM
Neither is Joel Embiid but Edwards had more long term promise and Meikle is right there as well

Completely agree with you on Meikle, he looked solid early on. Must be showing something different in practice than what we saw earlier.

caduceus
02-20-2014, 09:33 PM
I must be the only person who is neither all that surprised nor all that disappointed.

BYU played its best defensive game of the year and won a home game that the Cougars absolutely had to have. I'd bet a lot of money on GU beating BYU on a neutral court. I think the Mariott Center crowd had a big impact, including on the guys in striped shirts.

Two stats stand out to me: Gary Bell 1-8 on 3s and Przemek Karnowski 1 rebound.

If both teams get to the title game in Vegas, as I think they will, I believe GU will win.


http://i.imgur.com/a9s09Rh.gif

bballbeachbum
02-20-2014, 09:33 PM
Really, the struggles against zone defense are the big takeaway from this game. GU has shooters, but they're by and large small, and they can have a hard time getting jumpers against big defenders playing zone. Dranginis driving at the end was a bright spot.

agree with you again. the drive and kick and also the post players to initiate the O in the paint has been best because it looks like only GC can get to the rim

jayray
02-20-2014, 09:34 PM
you are not alone, vinny.

How can you not be disappointed? It was a loss, it was a total disappointment. I don't follow women's hockey but the loss today to Canada was disappointing. How can you be a fan and not be disappointed by a loss? All Zag losses are a disappointment to me.

webspinnre
02-20-2014, 09:34 PM
Missed alot of shots, too many turnovers, and killed on the boards. Sounds like a recipe for a loss. Disappointed, but as long as we can take the other 3, I can live with hit.

ZagaZags
02-20-2014, 09:34 PM
Lol I can't stop laughing. Kudos to you for lasting this long with that many posts on this board as a troll.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure how long you will last.

gonwick
02-20-2014, 09:35 PM
Agree that the loss was not surprising, but the manner in which they lost is frustrating. Everything felt half assed, half baked, half something. So many turnovers. So few rebounds. GU has made its mark with often unathletic teams playing harder and smarter. Tonight, they felt softer and dumber. Hopefully they will improve in the three games left before the wcc tournament.

hooter73
02-20-2014, 09:37 PM
A few of us arent too surprised by the loss but the idea that we arent getting better, the "shooters" are afraid or basically just unable to really score, free throws, our center still unable to show a consistent ability to play well, those tangibles are hard to swallow. The Loss, meh.

Edwards is a great raw freshman back up center and I leave it at that. The people that wont are the ones that call for Stocktons dismissal from the team, Coleman to somehow play 50 minutes per game and Nunez to be running the point.

Next game.

caduceus
02-20-2014, 09:38 PM
http://i.imgur.com/MgFBn8T.gif

ZagaZags
02-20-2014, 09:39 PM
A few of us arent too surprised by the loss but the idea that we arent getting better, the "shooters" are afraid or basically just unable to really score, free throws, our center still unable to show a consistent ability to play well, those tangibles are hard to swallow. The Loss, meh.

Edwards is a great raw freshman back up center and I leave it at that. The peopel that wont are the ones that call for Stocktons dismissal from the team, Coleman to some how play 50 minutes per game and Nunez to be running the point.

Next game.

This ^^^^^^^

We have seen it happen before, nobody wants to take the big shot. The only thing I can come up with is they don't want to go to the bench if they miss.

wnczagfan
02-20-2014, 09:41 PM
I am disappointed because I thought we had every opportunity to win this game, and with a few exceptions, it looked like we were just playing sloppily.

Oregonzagnut
02-20-2014, 09:41 PM
Our perimeter offense has no confidence anymore. Bell Pangos and Stockton go 6-23. Our frontcourt goes 13-22. Yet we still think we will somehow "shoot to get hot" on the road.

ZagaZags
02-20-2014, 09:43 PM
I am disappointed because I thought we had every opportunity to win this game, and with a few exceptions, it looked like we were just playing sloppily.

We do need to cut down on silly turnovers.

RenoZag
02-20-2014, 09:44 PM
How can you not be disappointed? It was a loss, it was a total disappointment. . . How can you be a fan and not be disappointed by a loss?

I agreed with Vinny's comments in which he said he wasn't too suprised nor too disappointed. I predicted a BYU win in Reborn's thread because I had a hunch. . .so sue me for not being as disappointed as some of the wankers who will vent their spleens on the GUB tonight. It's an effing basketball game, not life and death.

kitzbuel
02-20-2014, 09:45 PM
Probably not long. I'm too honest


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

While I do agree with your opinion of Jazz's over-exuberance, it is possible to be both honest and civil. How about trying to stick around?

wnczagfan
02-20-2014, 09:45 PM
We do need to cut down on silly turnovers.

And we left some guys wide open for threes; one of them had enough time to pause his shot and start it over again.

Mantua
02-20-2014, 09:45 PM
Agree that the loss was not surprising, but the manner in which they lost is frustrating. Everything felt half assed, half baked, half something. So many turnovers. So few rebounds. GU has made its mark with often unathletic teams playing harder and smarter. Tonight, they felt softer and dumber. Hopefully they will improve in the three games left before the wcc tournament.

Right! It was a terrible game to watch. The coup de gras for me was hearing the BYU crowd boo when we made a basket.

RenoZag
02-20-2014, 09:45 PM
http://i.imgur.com/MgFBn8T.gif

Ignore the trolls ? Which ones ?

zagapotomus
02-20-2014, 09:48 PM
Ignore the trolls ? Which ones ?

Read some youtube comments and then tell me there are trolls here

john montana
02-20-2014, 09:50 PM
On the plus side, few only took two minutes to realize his repeat starting lineup was as ineffectual in the second half as it was in the first. Sure, it wasted time, but not as much as usual. Progress!

This. How in the world can anyone watch the zags and think..."that Kyle dranginis kid should sit on the bench." Unbelievable. I love Stockton, but we are absolutely at our best when KD, GBJ, and KP are running the perimeter. Mix in stocks and Coleman (why was he on the bench down the stretch?)...but those three guards should get the bulk of the minutes. I just don't get it.

Edwards played great, but he is no where near as good as PK. Edwards will be an absolute load by the time he is a senior though.

RenoZag
02-20-2014, 09:51 PM
I've read enough comments on You Tube, ESPN, HuffPo. . .to know what passes for trolls at GUB is nothing compared to those sites. . .

Birddog
02-20-2014, 09:51 PM
Dranginis and Dower played pretty well esp KD and Edwards was outstanding in his limited minutes. The rest of the team looked less than adequate. You gotta value the basketball and possessions, 16 TO's yech.

btzag
02-20-2014, 09:51 PM
Funny that most everyone is focusing on the center position...sure Karnowski had some ups and downs, as did Dower and Edwards, but our predominate lineup in the game and especially the second half was a center and 4 others. My opinion of the game was that the '4 others' got dominated in this contest. Don't forget that those players are also expected to rebound. Bell, Pangos and Stockton were dominated in every facet of the game and Barham struggled in every minute he was on the floor. Nunez had very few minutes. The exception in this contest was Coleman and Dranginis, both brought it on both ends and would have been fun to see a Karno, Dower, Coleman, Drang and Stockton lineup at some point in this game.

CDC84
02-20-2014, 09:52 PM
BYU played with a total sense of desperation in that game. It showed in their defense. If they had played defense anywhere near that level this season, they would be an at large lock and be challenging GU for the WCC title.

The Zags are going to have a hard time winning in an environment like that with Pangos/Bell going 3-13 from the field. Even more so when they don't rebound well and commit silly turnovers (stop throwing low bounce passes in the paint to slow, 7 foot big guys!).

Once again, Bell and K-Drang did a great job on Haws (12 pts.). The MVP of this game for me was Anson Winder. No way BYU wins without his unlikely contribution. Mika also did a great job of getting GU's big men in foul trouble. Although Edwards came in and did an excellent job, the foul pressure really limited Dower and Karno's aggressiveness.

I have a feeling that GU will wrap up the league on Saturday and really should win the two games after that. Pacific and SMC did not look good at all tonight.

ZagaZags
02-20-2014, 09:52 PM
Read some youtube comments and then tell me there are trolls here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZkr0A9633Q

scott257
02-20-2014, 09:52 PM
Edwards is a great raw freshman back up center and I leave it at that.

Edwards is raw, but he works hard when he is on the floor, he plays tough, and he fights for rebounds. He doesn't have the stamina yet, but Few should have worked to get him more time if for no other reason than to light a fire under Karnowski. Karnowski gets down when things don't seem to be going his way and it is a clear liability, the other teams know they can get into his head. His poor rebounding tonight should have kept him on the bench.

zagapotomus
02-20-2014, 09:54 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZkr0A9633Q


RIP, Mariners haven't been the same since

Zagtime3000
02-20-2014, 09:59 PM
--Can't teach rebounding. With Spangler, we win that game by 10. Draino can't grab them all.
--Should have stayed with Colmen going into second half.
--Really concerned about GBJ -
--Agree with other posters, this team has not improved a bit since Maui. Here's hoping they are saving the good stuff for the post season.

ZagaZags
02-20-2014, 10:01 PM
RIP, Mariners haven't been the same since

The Mariners had their best season in 2001. 116-46, I was at the game for win #113 in Anaheim. The Kingdome was blown up March 26, 2000.

kitzbuel
02-20-2014, 10:02 PM
--Can't teach rebounding. With Spangler, we win that game by 10. Draino can't grab them all.
--Should have stayed with Carter going into second half.
--Really concerned about GBJ -
--Agree with other posters, this team has not improved a bit since Maui. Here's hoping they are saving the good stuff for the post season.

Carter?

btzag
02-20-2014, 10:03 PM
This. How in the world can anyone watch the zags and think..."that Kyle dranginis kid should sit on the bench." Unbelievable. I love Stockton, but we are absolutely at our best when KD, GBJ, and KP are running the perimeter. Mix in stocks and Coleman (why was he on the bench down the stretch?)...but those three guards should get the bulk of the minutes. I just don't get it.

Edwards played great, but he is no where near as good as PK. Edwards will be an absolute load by the time he is a senior though.

You are right on in that Drang should start and see major minutes.

Personally though I have been watching Stockton, Pangos and Bell very closely in recent games and I just don't see anything from Pangos and Bell. In the first half of this game watch the replay and focus on what exactly Pangos and Bell did in the first half. Catch ball, ball fake, jab step, pass. Rotate to next spot. Repeat. Seriously brought NOTHING. Stockton at least stepped up and took the ball to the hole, took a big shot when needed and initiated the offense.

wnczagfan
02-20-2014, 10:11 PM
Dranginis and Dower played pretty well esp KD and Edwards was outstanding in his limited minutes. The rest of the team looked less than adequate. You gotta value the basketball and possessions, 16 TO's yech.

This. And I believe Coleman was bringing it tonight as well.

zagapotomus
02-20-2014, 10:11 PM
The Mariners had their best season in 2001. 116-46, I was at the game for win #113 in Anaheim. The Kingdome was blown up March 26, 2000.

Went 2-4 against Yankees in 2000 in AL champs, 1-4 in 2001.

ZagaZags
02-20-2014, 10:12 PM
Went 2-4 against Yankees in 2000 in AL champs, 1-4 in 2001.

2001 was still a fun year.

zagapotomus
02-20-2014, 10:14 PM
2001 was still a fun year.

True true, I just have fond memories of kingdome nose bleed seats. Still can't get over Joey Cora crying

CdAZagFan
02-20-2014, 10:17 PM
Positives:
Dranginis' all around play (love his steals and his drives), Coleman's energy off the bench, Edwards little spark (although I'm not one who thinks he should start), Dower pretty solid all game long.

Negatives:
Lack of hustle (50/50 balls seemed to all go BYU way), Lack of offense late in games (I'd rather have Coleman and Stockton trying to create even if they have some turnovers, then watch the ball go around the outside for 29 seconds before trying something desperate), 3-point defense (how many wide open 3 point shots did BYU take?), lack of Coleman mid to late 2nd half.

Could be an interesting WCC tourney...

ZagaZags
02-20-2014, 10:17 PM
True true, I just have fond memories of kingdome nose bleed seats. Still can't get over Joey Cora crying

Fair enough, I remember watching Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey and A-Roid plus Brett Favre and Reggie White in the Kingdome. Good times. :cheers:

zagapotomus
02-20-2014, 10:19 PM
Fair enough, I remember watching Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey and A-Roid plus Brett Favre and Reggie White in the Kingdome. Good times. :cheers:

:cheers:

gamagin
02-20-2014, 10:33 PM
You are right on in that Drang should start and see major minutes.

Personally though I have been watching Stockton, Pangos and Bell very closely in recent games and I just don't see anything from Pangos and Bell. In the first half of this game watch the replay and focus on what exactly Pangos and Bell did in the first half. Catch ball, ball fake, jab step, pass. Rotate to next spot. Repeat. Seriously brought NOTHING. Stockton at least stepped up and took the ball to the hole, took a big shot when needed and initiated the offense.

This is spot on. It's exactly what few said and meant, a couple weeks ago. Our shooters have to hunt and shoot. They do not. DB right now seems like the only Zag setting up specifically to shoot. GC at least is in tune with the concept.

The rest just play catch, way too often, like it's a game of hot potato. They also seem to be waiting for inspiration instead of creating it. It drives everyone nuts and seem to inspire our foes to play loose and for broke. And they do.

Watching hawes run around hunting shots all night is what it means to keep going until you are open. Hawes created most of his shots.

Ex zag Cory violette, now doing GU radio play by play, spent a fair amount of time in the pre game show essentially saying the exact same thing. He warned if our shooters didn't hunt and shoot, we could be in trouble. He said it puts way too much pressure on the rest of the team, too, and essentially plugs up our whole game.

He was even more critical after the game. He pointed to hawes as the kind of guy GU needs and said that person doesn't exist at this time. I agree. The problems go back several games.

Zags11
02-20-2014, 10:49 PM
Box score:
http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400506793

I got nuttin... and neither did we. We really didnt play all that bad, but BYU didnt play all that great either.

No one really thought we'd run the table but some how this one kinda stinks. Fun minutes from Edwards. Stockton gave his haters something to smile about with 6 turnovers, good stat line from Dower and yet another amazing stat line from Draginis.


Who would smile at there team turning ball over to spite someone they dont care for? If this is true, vanish them.
Its as bad as clubber posting stick it david haters, once in awhile. Good grief.

Zags11
02-20-2014, 10:56 PM
Go mariners. Rip dave.

Im shocked we are speaking on a sophomore center. First yr with FT playing vs Mr Bell amd Pangos.

Bell has to turn it around. Oh well. Go zags.

caduceus
02-20-2014, 11:04 PM
On Court
Off Court
Player MIN RR +/- + - +/- + -
K. Pangos 39 2 -3 65 -68 -5 0 -5 G. Bell 32 6 -1 55 -56 -7 10 -17 D. Stockton 22 -12 -10 29 -39 2 36 -34 P. Karnowski 19 -34 -21 24 -45 13 41 -28 S. Dower 20 4 -2 43 -45 -6 22 -28 G. Coleman 13 18 5 28 -23 -13 37 -50 A. Nunez 2 8 0 5 -5 -8 60 -68 K. Dranginis 30 0 -4 46 -50 -4 19 -23 R. Edwards 8 28 10 19 -9 -18 46 -64 D. Barham 15 2 -3 22 -25 -5 43 -48


+ = Team points scored while on court
- = Opponent points allowed while on court
+/- = Team points scored minus Opp points allowed
Off Court = Team points scored/allowed while off court
RR (Roland Rating) = On Court +/- minus Off Court +/-



Pretty obvious where we got torpedoed. Karno's worst RR this season, by far. On the bright side, our bench played incredibly well. Edwards and Coleman shined.

P.S. The last time GU turned the ball over at least 16 times? January 24, 2013 against Brigham Young.

Zags11
02-20-2014, 11:12 PM
Yea......proud of edwards.

ZagaZags
02-21-2014, 12:22 AM
Go mariners. Rip dave.

Im shocked we are speaking on a sophomore center. First yr with FT playing vs Mr Bell amd Pangos.

Bell has to turn it around. Oh well. Go zags.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHzKdQlhIJw
He was the best ever! MY OH MY he was the best. ( I have goose bumps )

Dave Niehaus you are unbelievable!

Zag79
02-21-2014, 12:27 AM
I must be the only person who is neither all that surprised nor all that disappointed.

BYU played its best defensive game of the year and won a home game that the Cougars absolutely had to have. I'd bet a lot of money on GU beating BYU on a neutral court. I think the Mariott Center crowd had a big impact, including on the guys in striped shirts.

Two stats stand out to me: Gary Bell 1-8 on 3s and Przemek Karnowski 1 rebound.

If both teams get to the title game in Vegas, as I think they will, I believe GU will win.

This. How do you expect to go into BYU and win, when:

GBJ scores 7 points. For the minutes he logs the buckets need to increase. He should be a go to guy by now, and I think he needs to turn it up a notch with March coming. Yes he guards the best player sometimes, but this leads me to my next point.

The guards aren't staying in front of their men, they are just getting blown by forcing the bigs to foul in an attempt to save another easy layup. Hard to rebound when your best bigs are on the bench all too much, stop penetration and you get more rebounds with those guys in the game.

Coleman and Nunez need to see more time, they impact the game too much to sit for so long. Kyle is doing his thing, he impacts the game everywhere. All that aside, I wasn't shocked we lost this game. BYU is a tough place to win even when you play well, and we didn't. Time to big boy up and win out, a nice seed is still ours for the taking if we handle our business. Onto the next one!

Zags11
02-21-2014, 01:36 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHzKdQlhIJw
He was the best ever! MY OH MY he was the best. ( I have goose bumps )

Dave Niehaus you are unbelievable!

Goosebumps

wnczagfan
02-21-2014, 05:24 AM
On Court
Off Court
Player MIN RR +/- + - +/- + -
K. Pangos 39 2 -3 65 -68 -5 0 -5 G. Bell 32 6 -1 55 -56 -7 10 -17 D. Stockton 22 -12 -10 29 -39 2 36 -34 P. Karnowski 19 -34 -21 24 -45 13 41 -28 S. Dower 20 4 -2 43 -45 -6 22 -28 G. Coleman 13 18 5 28 -23 -13 37 -50 A. Nunez 2 8 0 5 -5 -8 60 -68 K. Dranginis 30 0 -4 46 -50 -4 19 -23 R. Edwards 8 28 10 19 -9 -18 46 -64 D. Barham 15 2 -3 22 -25 -5 43 -48


+ = Team points scored while on court
- = Opponent points allowed while on court
+/- = Team points scored minus Opp points allowed
Off Court = Team points scored/allowed while off court
RR (Roland Rating) = On Court +/- minus Off Court +/-



Pretty obvious where we got torpedoed. Karno's worst RR this season, by far. On the bright side, our bench played incredibly well. Edwards and Coleman shined.

P.S. The last time GU turned the ball over at least 16 times? January 24, 2013 against Brigham Young.

Wow! I am surprised Kyle Dranginis did not score higher on this chart, and that Barham, Pangos and Bell were a positive. To the eye test, I would have thought Dranginis, Edwards, and Coleman would have had positive ratings and the rest would have been neutral or negative. Although, it did confirm to me that Karnowski and Stockton did not have good games this time. In general, I really wonder if the altitude affects us out there. Just sloppy looking play all around except for the three I mentioned above.

MickMick
02-21-2014, 05:34 AM
--Can't teach rebounding. With Spangler, we win that game by 10. Draino can't grab them all.
--Should have stayed with Colmen going into second half.
--Really concerned about GBJ -
--Agree with other posters, this team has not improved a bit since Maui. Here's hoping they are saving the good stuff for the post season.

Thread winning post.

jazzdelmar
02-21-2014, 05:35 AM
Thread winning post.

Gold medal, esp #4

ZagLawGrad
02-21-2014, 06:11 AM
Nothing surprising about this loss.

The team is not as good as the record.

Baseline
02-21-2014, 06:37 AM
GU has a saver 3 point shooting problem. They can't and won't shoot when away from the Kennel. tournament play doesn't look so good at this point for that reason.
KD should be starting, take your pick over who he replaces, he is better than any of the 3 starting. Personally I would bench Bell, his game has really gone down hill this year. Yes, he is a good defender, but so is KD. The problem with the game was not the inside game. BYU was daring us to shoot and ganging up on the big guys, no wonder that was a hard night for them.

Shem had a bad night and its obvious he needs to stay and learn as he is no wear NBA ready. I'm one of his strongest supporters on here, but he was schooled by a freshman. Shem has great defensive instincts, but offense has a long way to go. I have said all year Edwards needs more playing time, last nght showed why. Some call him Raw, I beg to differ. He is solid on defense and has very good instincts on offense, better than Shem at this point.
If the guards can't shoot and can't get the ball inside there isn't going to be much offense, that's what we saw last night.

I don't know what you do about the 3 point shooting, it is what it is. If your not getting 3 pointers then try something else, like Coleman to drive and put pressure on the fouling. We have had the same problems all year and done little to adjust.

This team can look great at times, but when the shooting goes away every aspect of their game goes with it. Every game is a mystery, who shows up. I hope one of the incoming freshman is a shooter can change the dynamics of this team.
I love this team, but they are frustrating some nights.

Oregonzagnut
02-21-2014, 06:40 AM
Defense, feeding the bigs and potent slashers is what makes deep runs in the tourney. If we are going to stubbornly rely on 25% 3 point shooting, poor rebounding and sloppy ball handling, we won't even make it to 28 wins.

Few has got to have a plan to reverse the poor shooting numbers on the road. I don't buy "Shoot to get Hot". It just is't working on the road and I do not think we can afford anymore stubborn hard headed cliches to justify not getting Pangos and Bell to feed KArno and Dower as a first option. Stockton is our best pure PG. Period. Too bad he can't shoot. Pangos is a SG along with Bell and if they go cold during games like they are, we struggle with any team.

Vanzagger
02-21-2014, 06:45 AM
I am not going to blame the officials like the BYU fans do after every loss. Our bigs play like they have no toughness in them. Edwards looked good and needs more time but he has to be more alert on defense. Pangos, Bell, and Stockton were outplayed tonight. I still would like to see Nunez and Coleman get more minutes on the floor at the same time. Even if they make some mistakes, they create some real match-up problems and they would probably open up the three for Pangos.

Come on. You know this line up is saved for the end of a game, when it's almost too late.

Once again I am disappointed in our coaches. We are on the bubble. We had a chance to build something that would give us a bigger margin of error come March and we went with cuteness instead.

I feel sorry for GBJ. His coach is telling him to hunt his shot yet he is matched against someone who has 5 inches and 20lbs on him. At least that will be the case if we make the dance.

It is nice to see Draino more.

Maybe it was bad luck our schedule was so soft this year. Hopefully the West Virginia win looks good enough at the end and gives us some juice with the committee. The next 4-5 games are huge. If we slip get ready for ugly like never before. It might be a blessing for a wake up call.

80%

HenneZag
02-21-2014, 07:16 AM
It was a frustrating game to watch. I knew coming in that it was going to be a tight one with the edge leading to BYU, they were a hungry team at home in need for a win.

Where to start-
Karno needs to be stronger with the ball, he delays his approach to the basket just a 1/2 second too long, and is either blocked or fouled. And as we have all seen fouling Karno is a smart choice if you have a foul to give. Edwards showed some promise last night, not the most fluid player but he gets the job done imo.

Pangos continues his road struggles
GB is in another world right now
KD does a lot of things well but needs to take a shot when its open instead of faking, driving and dishing every time

We have been lucky a few games in league this year so I am very happy with our record. Just one game is all we need to take the conference and that will not be easy by any means.

My concern is the WCC tournament and beyond, we look like a team with no confidence or swagger with a pure lack of identity. I am not sure who our leader is on this team but im hoping it comes apparent soon. Like another poster has mentioned maybe we are saving the best ball for tourney time, if so I hope we play like we have nothing to lose.

cjm720
02-21-2014, 07:20 AM
Good fun game. Tough environment. Close loss.

What's evident to me is we lack a confident scorer other than Coleman but he's one dimensional. Bell, Pangos, and Dranginis need to be more assertive.

Not sure why Karno was in at the end of the game where free throws easily could have been the decider.

BULLDOG#1
02-21-2014, 07:20 AM
It's interesting how some of us fans can watch the same game and come to such different conclusions.

Edwards was great last night. But to suggest he should start over Karnowski is crazy. A zag fan can't help but love Edwards - kid has worked so hard to get where he is and his play last night demonstrates how far he's come and gives a glimpse of potential. But Karnowski is quicker on rotations, much better defensively, more refined offensively, etc. How quickly we forget how Karnowski destroyed the Gaels with his size and skill both on offense AND defense. I just don't see Edwards having that in his tool bag at this point in his career. Nevertheless, GREAT effort by Edwards last night and I too would love to see him in the rotation.

This loss though, is really on Pangos, Bell, and Stocks. They are our leaders and they didn't bring it. The bigs played well enough for the zags to win if the guards had shown up.

Credit BYU, they did what they had to do. The ARE a pretty talented team and most of us who have watched them know that they have the talent but have under performed most of the year. Despite some questionable calls, Mika played just as BYU needs him to play to be successful. Carlino was under control and outplayed Pangos (though i can't stand that cocky smirk of his).

I agree with the comments about Coleman and Dranginis - along with Edwards, they were our best performers last night.

Neutral court, I think zags win most of the time against this BYU team.

drvenkman05
02-21-2014, 07:48 AM
Come on, it wasn't Few who missed shots, it wasn't Few who didn't rebound, and it wasn't Few who didn't go after loose balls. Few coached a MASTERPIECE and I don't see how you can blame him for players not making plays (did I get it right, "blame-the-players-ONLY" crowd)?

Seriously, though, as others have mentioned, Few's rotations are baffling. Players who are having off nights are kept on the floor while players who are playing well and scoring are kept on the bench until it is too late to change the course of the game. In a zero-sum activity, "staying loyal" or "in the comfort zone" is no consolation prize for losing.

zaguarxj
02-21-2014, 07:49 AM
I am not just astonished, I am thunderstruck at what happened in last night's game. Not so much at the outcome but at the fact that Carlino had multiple, in fact *numerous* opportunities to blow the game and he failed to come through for the Zags like he usually does.

TacomaZAG
02-21-2014, 07:49 AM
This is spot on. It's exactly what few said and meant, a couple weeks ago. Our shooters have to hunt and shoot. They do not. DB right now seems like the only Zag setting up specifically to shoot. GC at least is in tune with the concept.

The rest just play catch, way too often, like it's a game of hot potato. They also seem to be waiting for inspiration instead of creating it. It drives everyone nuts and seem to inspire our foes to play loose and for broke. And they do.

Watching hawes run around hunting shots all night is what it means to keep going until you are open. Hawes created most of his shots.

Ex zag Cory violette, now doing GU radio play by play, spent a fair amount of time in the pre game show essentially saying the exact same thing. He warned if our shooters didn't hunt and shoot, we could be in trouble. He said it puts way too much pressure on the rest of the team, too, and essentially plugs up our whole game.

He was even more critical after the game. He pointed to hawes as the kind of guy GU needs and said that person doesn't exist at this time. I agree. The problems go back several games.

+1 Gam.......

What we are seeing the last few games, specifically Memphis and BYU, is the fatal flaw in the 3-guard lineup or even worse, the 4-guard lineup. Everyone is talking about guys "hunting their shot" (mostly KP and GBJ, as DB is a spot up shooter only and DS is not a scorer), but with the 3-guard and 4-guard lineup it is impossible. Again, with the 3-guard lineup KP slides to the 2 and GBJ slides to the 3, forcing both of them to play out of position against bigger, taller guys. At 6'-1", GBJ is trying to "hunt his shot" against guys who are 6'-5" or taller, same with KP at 6'-0" (Hawes is 6'-5", Collinsworth is 6'-6" and BYU could hide Carlino and others on DS all night). This issue is compounded by the fact that DS is consistently left alone on the perimeter due to the fact that he is not a threat to score, freeing up another defender to shadow KP and GBJ. Further compounding the problem is the total lack of plays run to get KP and/or GBJ open for shots, like a double screen, etc.........

Let's face it folks, we are not going to beat anyone in the top 100 RPI when we have 16 TO's, shoot 22% from behind the arc (typical percentage away from the Kennel), and get destroyed on the boards. Also, we are not going to beat anyone in the top 100 RPI when we again fail to make any halftime adjustments (we made 1 FG and total of 3 points in the first 5 minutes of the second half last night). The score was tied at half, we are down by 6 or 8 at the 15:00 minute mark of the second half.......momentum gone, game over.

For me, here is the most telling stat from last night's game, the one that illustrates everything said in the above post. KP is by far our best scorer, he played 39 minutes and we only get him 9 shots (5 from behind the arc), with only one of those being a good look and none of them coming off a designed play to get him free. If anything close to that stat line and offensive scheme continues in the remaining games this season (none at the Kennel), we aren't going anywhere.

On a positive note, I thought KD and GC played well again and deserve minutes (both at the 3 IMHO, with KP at the 1 and GBJ at the 2). Also, GBJ played great defense against Hawes, holding him to 12 points that included a couple of thrown up prayers that were answered.

Go ZAGS

zag944
02-21-2014, 08:56 AM
Bell did well defending Haws. Dower was having a good game that was limited by foul trouble. Pangos hit 2-5 3s in a tough road environment. That's about it for positives from the starting lineup.

Wish Coleman could've been out there more. He was giving us great energy. Loved the minutes Edwards played, but he looked pretty darn winded. Would like to see him getting those 8 minutes or so in every game.

At BYU is the toughest conference game. Really wish we could've won, but this one doesn't sting as bad as Dayton (a good team, but I wanted to be in the winners bracket of the Maui tourney) or Portland. On to the next one.

jagwalkley
02-21-2014, 09:15 AM
that is sure the truth.

vandalzag
02-21-2014, 09:40 AM
Defense, feeding the bigs and potent slashers is what makes deep runs in the tourney. If we are going to stubbornly rely on 25% 3 point shooting, poor rebounding and sloppy ball handling, we won't even make it to 28 wins.

Few has got to have a plan to reverse the poor shooting numbers on the road. I don't buy "Shoot to get Hot". It just is't working on the road and I do not think we can afford anymore stubborn hard headed cliches to justify not getting Pangos and Bell to feed KArno and Dower as a first option. Stockton is our best pure PG. Period. Too bad he can't shoot. Pangos is a SG along with Bell and if they go cold during games like they are, we struggle with any team.

Defense, like holding the #3 scoring team in the nation 12 points below their average on their home court. Holding the 4th best scorer 10 pts below his average. Holding the home team below their season avg in FG and 3pt%. All of these seem like a pretty good defensive effort.

Rebounding was the difference last night. BYU #4 in country Zags #137 that was going to be the tipping point. I agree completely with you on this point, rebounding kills. I do think last nights game is a different on a neutral court simply because the Mika and others would not be allowed to play that hard away from home.

As far as the slashers go I do not think that is the entire difference. GU had plenty of attempts going to glass so I do not see that as the entire problem or a key to success. Coming into the game they were shooting 39% and 18 attempts from 3, last night they took their 18 shots but only hit 4, they hit their average and they win by 5 or more. The 18 attempts from 3 per game is not relying on the 3, not in today's game (GU is 95th in country in 3 pt attempts).

The loss last night was based on missed shots, turnovers, and rebounding. Not many teams will win when they do not make shots and get beat on the boards, especially on the road.

Zagceo
02-21-2014, 09:56 AM
Who was guarding Winder most of the night? Winder was 10-10 from the line. I'm sure most of those fouls came at the expense of Dower and Karno.

vandalzag
02-21-2014, 10:02 AM
Who was guarding Winder most of the night? Winder was 10-10 from the line. I'm sure most of those fouls came at the expense of Dower and Karno.

Fouls that lead to FT"s:
Coleman, PK (2), Gary Bell, and Ryan Edwards. If memory servers most of the night covering him was Pangos or Stockton.

HillBillyZag
02-21-2014, 10:04 AM
I have watched P.K. play and read his accolades for over two years now. With all due respect to the young man I am forced to say that I am underwhelmed with his progress?, or lack thereof? The following are simply my own opinions (as an older Era five). He is trying hard, perhaps too hard?, to accomplish what Coach Few asks of him?, which is another question in itself? He is too heavy and cannot move quickly enough to rebound, score, and pass from the Post(his job) while jumping out at least twice every possession to screen and set picks for Few's beloved guards. If you play a guard oriented "pick & pop" attack like G.U. does, your five (center) has to depend more on mobility and speed like K.O. had. With this kid, the quickness is not there, he has other advantages, but they are not being utilized? Many of his fouls on defense occur because our weak side help people either get there late?, or don't show up?. I have NO idea what the free throw problem is?, because my coaches would never have let anyone who couldn't shoot at least 75% from the line get on the floor? As other Posters have said, this is a good G.U. team that has little or no room for error. To beat quality teams it has to be an "all hands on deck" full speed effort. Anything less, 'you get what we saw last night in Provo.

hooter73
02-21-2014, 10:55 AM
You cant have a plodding big man be effective against a high energy, athletic 4/5 like Mika. It just doesnt happen and we still never seem to either target or land high energy, athletic big men (centers) since Josh H maybe? Kelly doesnt count as he was an anomaly from start to early finish lol.

zag944
02-21-2014, 10:57 AM
You are right on in that Drang should start and see major minutes.

Personally though I have been watching Stockton, Pangos and Bell very closely in recent games and I just don't see anything from Pangos and Bell. In the first half of this game watch the replay and focus on what exactly Pangos and Bell did in the first half. Catch ball, ball fake, jab step, pass. Rotate to next spot. Repeat. Seriously brought NOTHING. Stockton at least stepped up and took the ball to the hole, took a big shot when needed and initiated the offense.

Our starting back court just seems like a really weird combination of players. Bell isn't looking to score even though he does it very well....Stockton is looking to score and doesn't do it as well.

Teams that do their homework seem to almost let Stockton take the ball to the hole or take big shots....that's why he is doing it and Bell isn't. Stockton seems to play best with 4 scorers that he can set up. Bell seems to play best with 4 scorers that allow him to get more open. When they are both on the floor at once the numbers just seem to be stacked against us while we are on offense. Just what I see. I'm not a coach and I drink a lot of beer while I watch the games.

cjm720
02-21-2014, 11:01 AM
It's funny (and I saw it coming), but in a game where Few made more substitutions and we saw players get extended time that normally sit, we still get the crowd that #####es about the coach and his rotation. It used to piss me off, now I just find it funny. Sure coach might have done something a bit differently here and there with hindsight, but in that hostile environment against a very good offensive and rebounding team, we were in a position to win.

Zagceo
02-21-2014, 11:03 AM
Our starting back court just seems like a really weird combination of players. Bell isn't looking to score even though he does it very well....Stockton is looking to score and doesn't do it as well.

Teams that do their homework seem to almost let Stockton take the ball to the hole or take big shots....that's why he is doing it and Bell isn't. Stockton seems to play best with 4 scorers that he can set up. Bell seems to play best with 4 scorers that allow him to get more open. When they are both on the floor at once the numbers just seem to be stacked against us while we are on offense. Just what I see. I'm not a coach and I drink a lot of beer while I watch the games.

If they allowed that on the bench I'd hire you for my head coach! ; )

vandalzag
02-21-2014, 11:19 AM
It's funny (and I saw it coming), but in a game where Few made more substitutions and we saw players get extended time that normally sit, we still get the crowd that #####es about the coach and his rotation. It used to piss me off, now I just find it funny. Sure coach might have done something a bit differently here and there with hindsight, but in that hostile environment against a very good offensive and rebounding team, we were in a position to win.

+1
The coaches rotation was good enough on the defensive end to win, but he should have somehow figured out how to substitute players like they do in a hockey game. Never mind the fact that we lost on the road to half way decent team that was picked to contend for or even win the league crown. Obviously the difference in last nights game was player x getting 4 more minutes than player y.

gueastcoast
02-21-2014, 11:40 AM
It's funny (and I saw it coming), but in a game where Few made more substitutions and we saw players get extended time that normally sit, we still get the crowd that #####es about the coach and his rotation. It used to piss me off, now I just find it funny. Sure coach might have done something a bit differently here and there with hindsight, but in that hostile environment against a very good offensive and rebounding team, we were in a position to win.

This. A couple of threes dropping and/or a couple more made free throws, ball bounces differently on a few loose ball situations, etc. and coach is now a genius, having finally gotten religion on the GUB's view of proper player rotations. LOL

gonwick
02-21-2014, 01:23 PM
Few put Edwards in out of desperation, as no one was getting rebounds. He played well, but has gotten minimal time even in blowouts, so he is an unknown entity and inexperienced in game situations, so few isn't comfortable with him. All season, players who could be used in situations like last night (when some starters, according to the coach, just didn't have it) have gotten little game time. Miekle may as well have redshirted. Few tried to go back to his comfort zone in the second half, but a byu run and general incompetence by the starters forced his hand. I'm glad to see he made some changes, but his decisions throughout the season have left some players underdeveloped. I would also contend that the three or four guard lineup, as others have stated above, sets our small guards up for failure by putting them on taller players, limiting their window for shooting and reducing the chances of getting a rebound. Few is many things, but creative is not one of them. Coleman sat. Nunez got a two minute window.

As an aside, I don't know what people mean by "hunting shots". Gary shot a lot, he missed almost all of them, but he shot a lot. Sounds like most hunting trips. Kyle needs to start, instead of either Gary or Stockton.

CDC84
02-21-2014, 01:28 PM
As an aside, I don't know what people mean by "hunting shots". Gary shot a lot, he missed almost all of them, but he shot a lot. Sounds like most hunting trips. Kyle needs to start, instead of either Gary or Stockton.

An email from a friend:

So many times Bell doesn't look to attack. He could've put BYU's defense off-balance, but was more interested in abandoning the ball. It's not even so much about hunting a shot. It's about taking the gaps that the defense presents whether it's an open three pointer or an off-balance defender running at you that you can drive in the lane. Gary passes up so many of those opportunities. It really cripples the offense, especially when Stockton is in the game.

gonwick
02-21-2014, 02:09 PM
That seems fair, CDC. Although I'm not sure Gary shooting more yesterday would have helped. It's like saying stockton should shoot from three to keep them honest, when that's a part of the opponent's game plan. the stats were not in his favor yesterday. Gu this year is, unfortunately, one of those annoying mediocre teams that drives people nuts in the ncaa tourney that can get hot from three and beat almost anyone or lose to absolutely anyone.

GonzagasaurusFlex
02-21-2014, 03:13 PM
+1 Gam.......
What we are seeing the last few games, specifically Memphis and BYU, is the fatal flaw in the 3-guard lineup or even worse, the 4-guard lineup. Everyone is talking about guys "hunting their shot" (mostly KP and GBJ, as DB is a spot up shooter only and DS is not a scorer), but with the 3-guard and 4-guard lineup it is impossible. Again, with the 3-guard lineup KP slides to the 2 and GBJ slides to the 3, forcing both of them to play out of position against bigger, taller guys. At 6'-1", GBJ is trying to "hunt his shot" against guys who are 6'-5" or taller, same with KP at 6'-0" (Hawes is 6'-5", Collinsworth is 6'-6" and BYU could hide Carlino and others on DS all night). This issue is compounded by the fact that DS is consistently left alone on the perimeter due to the fact that he is not a threat to score, freeing up another defender to shadow KP and GBJ. Further compounding the problem is the total lack of plays run to get KP and/or GBJ open for shots, like a double screen, etc.........

Let's face it folks, we are not going to beat anyone in the top 100 RPI when we have 16 TO's, shoot 22% from behind the arc (typical percentage away from the Kennel), and get destroyed on the boards. Also, we are not going to beat anyone in the top 100 RPI when we again fail to make any halftime adjustments (we made 1 FG and total of 3 points in the first 5 minutes of the second half last night). The score was tied at half, we are down by 6 or 8 at the 15:00 minute mark of the second half.......momentum gone, game over.

For me, here is the most telling stat from last night's game, the one that illustrates everything said in the above post. KP is by far our best scorer, he played 39 minutes and we only get him 9 shots (5 from behind the arc), with only one of those being a good look and none of them coming off a designed play to get him free. If anything close to that stat line and offensive scheme continues in the remaining games this season (none at the Kennel), we aren't going anywhere.

On a positive note, I thought KD and GC played well again and deserve minutes (both at the 3 IMHO, with KP at the 1 and GBJ at the 2). Also, GBJ played great defense against Hawes, holding him to 12 points that included a couple of thrown up prayers that were answered.

Go ZAGS

Well said..I agree 100% and would add that because he is a team-first player, KP is being the good soldier; however, he has played his entire career as the primary ball handler and I think it has a huge, negative impact on his game to become a 2 guard so David Stockton (who I respect, admire, root for etc etc) can run the point. Kevin Pangos is a point guard; plesae, coach Few, let him be one!!!

MickMick
02-22-2014, 12:54 AM
An email from a friend:

So many times Bell doesn't look to attack. He could've put BYU's defense off-balance, but was more interested in abandoning the ball. It's not even so much about hunting a shot. It's about taking the gaps that the defense presents whether it's an open three pointer or an off-balance defender running at you that you can drive in the lane. Gary passes up so many of those opportunities. It really cripples the offense, especially when Stockton is in the game.

GBJ has to take that open three. I believe KD should be playing.

ZagsGoZags
02-22-2014, 05:32 AM
The game was a tribute to Gary Bell's defense. He can guard the opponents shooters so well, they have a hard time getting set, and getting the shot off. When his defenders do the same to him, he is unable to set up his shot, and he is not a good off-balance shooter like Hawes and Carlino are. Bell is probably shooting 12% from the three pt line when he forces his shot, or is a bit off balance. Maybe GBJ cannot leave his comfort zone this year, and maybe he knows when he does he becomes a liability. Two years ago I counted the number of times (for 8 games) he passed inside, or drove inside to kick out to Pangos or anybody else, and it was about one a half times per game. He seems to falling back into that. On the perimeter, when he gets the ball, it doesn't seem like he has been looking inside to see what he might do, he doesn't fake pass, he just gets the ball and looks for another guard to pass to as quickly as possible. Hot Potato! It's that 'somebody else do something' body language.
And what is with all the sloppy, intercepted passes; the team certainly had more than its share of those for this game?
I know we are having a down year, and it is so disappointing. I am glad for the cupcake schedule, because our record far exceeds our talent this year.

mnzag24
02-22-2014, 06:34 AM
GBJ is one of my favorite players but games like BYU are frustrating. After the game, i was trying to remember the last time he was at the FT line. anyone know?

ArchaeaBYU
02-22-2014, 01:27 PM
BYU played with a total sense of desperation in that game. It showed in their defense. If they had played defense anywhere near that level this season, they would be an at large lock and be challenging GU for the WCC title.

The Zags are going to have a hard time winning in an environment like that with Pangos/Bell going 3-13 from the field. Even more so when they don't rebound well and commit silly turnovers (stop throwing low bounce passes in the paint to slow, 7 foot big guys!).

Once again, Bell and K-Drang did a great job on Haws (12 pts.). The MVP of this game for me was Anson Winder. No way BYU wins without his unlikely contribution. Mika also did a great job of getting GU's big men in foul trouble. Although Edwards came in and did an excellent job, the foul pressure really limited Dower and Karno's aggressiveness.

I have a feeling that GU will wrap up the league on Saturday and really should win the two games after that. Pacific and SMC did not look good at all tonight.

This is the first and perhaps only perception to notice this change. Winder guards the defensive perimeter well and sometimes contributes offensively. Coach is starting to use him to shut down the shooters for other teams. Because he is off the bench mostly, most opposing fans have no idea who he is.

ZAGLAWQB
02-22-2014, 02:36 PM
This team, when faced with up-competition may be playing "not to lose" rather than playing "to win" even if it means some lapses and mistakes....in basketball it only takes fractions of change to make this negative mental change...it may be time to "go for it" as first game of the Madness may require some basketball "Luck" that only appears when guys take some creative risk/shots and actually force the "inferior" game against the superior competition...this mindset, along with coaching and players "smarts" has won a lot of games over the years.

Vanzagger
02-22-2014, 03:52 PM
This team, when faced with up-competition may be playing "not to lose" rather than playing "to win" even if it means some lapses and mistakes....in basketball it only takes fractions of change to make this negative mental change...it may be time to "go for it" as first game of the Madness may require some basketball "Luck" that only appears when guys take some creative risk/shots and actually force the "inferior" game against the superior competition...this mindset, along with coaching and players "smarts" has won a lot of games over the years.

I see what your saying and agree. The sad thing is....there is not a lot of superior competition/talent out there

bballbeachbum
02-22-2014, 04:45 PM
GBJ has to take that open three. I believe KD should be playing.

he passed on one 'open' shot in the game that I saw, then actually came back and hit his only three right after that. he shot 8 three's in the game, forced some really. Maybe KD should start, maybe not, the idea floated thru here a couple of weeks ago, but ragging on Gary for not hunting lately is off target. the guy is trying too hard in all of this and all of the sudden he goes 1-8 from 3...what's his career 3%? hunters need the correct tools and tactics to make the hunt successful

zag944
02-22-2014, 08:00 PM
Really hard to pick on Gary in that game for me. He did a great job on Haws, and that's a hell of a task. Arguably the main one in beating BYU. Kind of unfair to ask a guy to do that as well as he did AND light up a team as good as BYU on the road