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View Full Version : How would you have reacted to being " body slammed" like Karnowski?



HillBillyZag
02-10-2014, 06:16 PM
My High School Coach would have made me run the bleachers for a week if I were abused like that on the court and had made no attempt to retaliate? A message was sent to not only PK, but the entire Team. " We are better and tougher than you, we own you and will do what we must?, to kick your butts. Unless blind?, one could not miss all the trash talking, smirking, high fives, and fist bumps exchanged on the Memphis bench during/after the incident, indeed,even as the ejected player left the floor. I'm not condoning dirty play, but those of you who have followed the Zags for any length of time know how guys like Violette, Calvary, Pargo, Pendo, or Morrison would have reacted, They would'nt have gotten mad, they'd have gotten even. I'm sorry, but "nice guys finish last" is in some cases?, correct.

Ezag
02-10-2014, 06:25 PM
I don't really condone revenge now that I am older, but when I played college soccer if one of our guys were abused or fouled hard, we would for sure as hell retaliate. This team doesn't seem to have that type of player, they are all a bunch of nice guys.

Zagdawg
02-10-2014, 06:26 PM
So you were looking for a little payback --maybe like these big boys.

http://kffm.com/high-school-basketball-game-in-wa-state-goes-viral-video/



Sorry--not a fan...two wrongs don't make a right.


Put them in their place by beating them--take the higher road and show them what Zags are about.

madness
02-10-2014, 06:38 PM
I would have liked to see someone step up for Shem...Shem was getting abused all game and not one of GU's captains (Dower, Stocks, Pangos) made a move to talk to the Officials or warn a Memphis guy.

There's one thing about having composure (Marcus Smart), there's another issue matching your opponent's intensity. (GU)

I have a feeling assistance coach Morrison might have something to say to the gents about this during the week.

willandi
02-10-2014, 06:50 PM
Kind of along the same line of thought...I would like to see our players make their fouls count. Not cheap shots, but if you try to stop a layin, either foul hard enough to stop it or just let it go. I also would like to see our guards drive the lane and 'lean' into the defender, get some fouls called on them and some easy points at the line. Draw up plays to attack an opposing player with 4 fouls. It's either a free basket or he's gone.
Stocks has stood up for his teammates before, just in this case the offending player was ejected. Kind of hard to go after somebody else and not be the same as them.

ZagSports
02-10-2014, 07:03 PM
On the scoreboard, that is the only place to retaliate

Baseline
02-10-2014, 07:04 PM
This is Basketball, not thug basketball. The best retaliation is to get back up and just win. No one ever wins by revenge actions. It feels good at the time, but usually has negative repercussions. The response needs to be talked out between Few and the team and everyone needs to be on the same age.

ZagsGoZags
02-10-2014, 07:08 PM
I was surprised how good I felt about Stocks body slamming Payne in retaliation. It seems to be common in baseball.

bartruff1
02-10-2014, 07:37 PM
I can't question the courage or judgment of a 19 year old kid who is playing in his fifth (?) year of organized basketball, in a foreign country in a different culture, thousands of miles from home in front of thousands of hostile fans and millions of viewers...... his team was winning...this was not the time to do something stupid...

I recall the X gangstas ....don't ever want to see that.

I am so proud of his effort this year. I do wish he would not whine (if that is what he is doing) or react about the calls against him. Just play hard not dirty.

I don't believe the foul was a body slam or even intentional and I believe he was quick to apologize or was told to.

That is just my opinion, obviously, others may have a different or even opposite opinion.

Hokis
02-10-2014, 07:43 PM
Id hardly call that a body slam (extremely dirty play/uncalled for/just not a body slam)


However, the best revenge would of been getting the last laugh. By winning. Which it looked like we were going to do until the same song and dance came on

Zagdawg
02-10-2014, 07:47 PM
Time to bounce the trolll-- where is an admin when you need one?

ZagaZags
02-10-2014, 08:04 PM
Technically Hokis is correct. By definition that was not a body slam. I also agree the best way to get revenge is on the scoreboard.

hooter73
02-10-2014, 09:09 PM
anyone have the replay of it? Havent watched the game, not really planning on it based on board reaction.

gamagin
02-10-2014, 09:31 PM
I can dream, anyway . . . http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=the+hanson+brothers+or+the+hanson+twins+and +slapshot&vid=db0c915b6147d7fbf73852e1d37c8da6&l=4%3A40&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.46 28227971024166%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DgO 6uiyqblBA&tit=The+Hanson+Brothers+-+MmmBop&c=4&sigr=11a95ajcl&sigt=10sj0sefr&back=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fei%3 DUTF-8%26p%3Dthe%2Bhanson%2Bbrothers%2Bor%2Bthe%2Bhanso n%2Btwins%2Band%2Bslapshot%26fr%3Daaplw&sigb=137s218uh&ct=p&age=0&&tt=b

HillBillyZag
02-10-2014, 10:16 PM
I hope zagdawg isn't referring to me as a troll simply because I stated an opinion he may disagree with. I believe that while the the meek may inherit the earth, they arn't going to win many basketball games.

Zags11
02-10-2014, 10:33 PM
You gotta show you wont be bullied. In rec league, id knock them on their butt to show we won't baCk down. Id do it hard but not dirty.

ZagaZags
02-10-2014, 11:23 PM
I hope zagdawg isn't referring to me as a troll simply because I stated an opinion he may disagree with. I believe that while the the meek may inherit the earth, they arn't going to win many basketball games.

He was referring to Hokis. The body slam was more like a horse collar, he grabbed Karnowski by the shoulders and held the back of his jersey. Then he kinda threw Karno to the ground.

ZagMania
02-11-2014, 05:01 AM
I haven't rewatched the incident but my initial reaction was impressed by how the Memphis players handled it. I believe it was Joe Jackson who the camera showed explaining to the freshman what he had done immediately after (by reenacting the play and grabbing his shoulders and forcing him down) and the player came over and apologized to PK. Every player, especially freshman subs, is instructed to foul Karno rather than give him a good look at the basket, I'm sure this is what was going through his head, not to hurt him.

The forearm shove after one of their made baskets to PK was more malicious in its intent IMO. Agree that he should have gotten thrown out, however.

Reborn
02-11-2014, 06:36 AM
I know one thing. If I were Gary Bell, I would not have let Dixon score on an uncontested layup with one minute to go. I would have given him a very, very hard foul. In contrast to the back up post player for Memphis, he could have administered a hard foul to Pk, but imo and the opinion of the referees was that he went way beyond that and was kicked out of the game. You can call the foul whatever you want but when a basketball player weighing 300 pounds grabs a player by the back of his jersey and DOES THROW HIM DOWN TO THE FLOOR intentionally, it IS a big deal. And it is DIRTY. If there is one thing that anyone hates, it to be blindsided. PK was grabbed in the back of his jersey, so he had no idea of what was coming. He could not prepare himself for that foul. PK is 300 pounds, and when he falls without preperation for the the thud on a hard court, it's scary. I am just glad he wasn't hurt worse then he was. WE know that his knees were hurt to some extent, and just possibly that's why he did dunk the ball that Jackson blocked with more force.

I would not have retaliated, but I would have gotten into that players face and confronted him verbally. If a player retaliates you and I know that he is thrown out of the game. As a player, I was taught to control my emotions and never retaliate. I was taught that the best way to get back at a dirty player or dirty team was to outplay them. To let my play speak how I feel. I believe the toughest guys on our squad are Pangos, Stockton and Coleman. I used to think that about Gary Bell but I no longer believe that about him. And I admit, it's sad for me to say that. Something is wrong with Gary, and someone needs to sit him down and have a serious talk with him.

Anyway, that's enough out of me.

Go Zags!!!

SWZag
02-11-2014, 06:45 AM
Takes a strong human being to turn the other cheek.

Zagceo
02-11-2014, 07:03 AM
I would defer to Casey Calvary.

ZagMania
02-11-2014, 07:10 AM
That layup by Dixon to take the lead was frustrating. I thought Bell was back in plenty of time to either try to set up for a charge (although considering the circumstances probably would have never been called) or at the least made Dixon earn it at the free throw line. Instead, Bell went for the strip, came away empty, and Dixon had a very easy lay in to take the lead.

jpwils
02-11-2014, 07:47 AM
That layup by Dixon to take the lead was frustrating. I thought Bell was back in plenty of time to either try to set up for a charge (although considering the circumstances probably would have never been called) or at the least made Dixon earn it at the free throw line. Instead, Bell went for the strip, came away empty, and Dixon had a very easy lay in to take the lead.

Thought our BIGS played well against Memphis- overall rebounding might have been a tad better.

Easy to say now what we should have or could have done about the foul on Karno...what to do away from home with a lead to not change the dynamic at the time....better to learn from this loss and not be toxically shamed or take on weird " inappropriate vows" like " I'll never do this or never fail to do that....only leads to weird rage and being able to execute...I know many on this board will disagree...
get even by winning these games in the future- don't bother to look back now.

I am proud of our Zags and feel we are getting better- to be up 12 away from home is an accomplishment I can live with...now take us home to the WCC crown, WCC tournament championship, and far into the Big Dance- you guys have what it takes- just get tighter, everybody hit the boards, and hold on together- it's gonna be a wild finish but a GREAT finish to this season!

Keep getting the ball inside where possible and look for the good in each other.

CDC84
02-11-2014, 08:36 AM
The problem with retaliation in modern day college basketball:

1) The official is likely to call a technical foul on anyone who retaliates, thereby negating the technical that was just called and the foul shots and free possession that come with it. Is it more important to be macho, or more important to win the game? I'd rather take the free points and the free possession. Especially in a road game.
2) Retaliation often leads to escalation which leads to people coming off the bench which leads to shoves and fists being thrown. See the disastrous Pacers/Pistons game a few years ago, or the Crosstown Shootout brawl between Cincinnati and Xavier. If a player even leaves the bench in the college game he runs the risk of being ejected and suspended. Fists and shoves lead to multi-game suspensions. We live in an era where universities, conferences and the NCAA have zero tolerance when it comes to this kind of stuff.

You simply have to maintain your cool, help your guy get off the floor and walk away. Referees and league officials don't care about the "I was just defending my teammate" plea. There are too many downsides to retaliating.

LongIslandZagFan
02-11-2014, 08:37 AM
I get torn. I don't know that I am comfortable with retaliation... but I get the mindset. Was playing in an over 30 league a few years back... There was a guy playing in the league that had no right being there... he had played D1 back in the day and supposedly spent time in Euroleagues. Anyhow, during one game he back into a guy on our team that was likely about 55 or 60 knocking him over. The player then tripped over our player. He got upset, when out player offered a hand to help him up he pushed it away. I should point out we had the same refs for the most part every game... so we got to know each other. Ref called it on the floor... more whining from this guy (which was about every call through out the game). Now I am ticked at the guy. I knew the inbound was going to him so as soon as he got it and went up I fouled him hard across both arms. As I walked by the ref after the play I leaned into him and said... "Now THAT was a foul"... Ref started laughing.

75Zag
02-11-2014, 08:40 AM
Don't get mad, get even.

Go Bulldogs!

titopoet
02-11-2014, 08:55 AM
My High School Coach would have made me run the bleachers for a week if I were abused like that on the court and had made no attempt to retaliate? A message was sent to not only PK, but the entire Team. " We are better and tougher than you, we own you and will do what we must?, to kick your butts. Unless blind?, one could not miss all the trash talking, smirking, high fives, and fist bumps exchanged on the Memphis bench during/after the incident, indeed,even as the ejected player left the floor. I'm not condoning dirty play, but those of you who have followed the Zags for any length of time know how guys like Violette, Calvary, Pargo, Pendo, or Morrison would have reacted, They would'nt have gotten mad, they'd have gotten even. I'm sorry, but "nice guys finish last" is in some cases?, correct.

Actually, there was a elbow thrown by a Zag, that we caught and led to an extra position that Memphis use to take the lead. Karno had just secured the rebound. Retaliation was one of the factors that led to lose. The bigger retaliation would have been to win.

Vanzagger
02-11-2014, 09:09 AM
You da man 75

About the "X Thugs". Their former coach, the one who recruited them, was proud of their toughness. He knew his guys wouldn't back down. It was the popular thing to do, trash Xavier, and Miller said those are my guys. I don't think you will hear him making excuses about injuries even though his future NBA guy is out for the year.

BobZag
02-11-2014, 09:43 AM
Shem must have Cable TV. "Don't get body slammed by a Lowland Gorilla. Get rid of cable and get DirecTV."

Vanzagger
02-11-2014, 10:04 AM
Good one

jim77
02-11-2014, 10:55 AM
You do what Shem did....you get up and dust yourself off. You then watch the guy leave the court with a big smile on your face....and then make the freethrows.....that stunt could have cost them the game as their other big was in huge foul trouble.

ZagMania
02-11-2014, 11:07 AM
You do what Shem did....you get up and dust yourself off. You then watch the guy leave the court with a big smile on your face....and then make the freethrows.....that stunt could have cost them the game as their other big was in huge foul trouble.

Kevin came in and drilled the free throws as PK was on the bench, but that reminds me...

How about PK's two huge free throws at the 6:23 mark? He hadn't been anywhere close in his previous 4 attempts. Really proud of him for getting it together and turning it around with two really pretty swishes.

Ekrub
02-11-2014, 12:29 PM
I would have laid on the ground and cried. And cried. And cried. And cried some more. The. I would have had The trainer cart me off on a stretcher.

Ekrub
02-11-2014, 12:32 PM
I remember Harris retaliating vs. some dirty player from Wake Forest. Turned the entire momentum of the game in their favor.

Jazzgirl_127
02-11-2014, 01:07 PM
I think PK handled it the best way possible. There were probably a million thoughts going through his head at the moment including his sore knee. The team needed him on the floor in that game and in future ones (why risk getting an ejection or suspension). And no, you can't go after another player for revenge once the offender was tossed. In the incident with PK, the refs handled it by ejecting the player that fouled him. If they had kept him in the game, or gave him a slap on the wrist personal foul instead of a tech, it's their fault if things get out of hand and players start to retaliate for what was done to themselves or teammates. I 100% agree with willandi's statement to "make the fouls count," you're not intentionally hurting them, just making sure that they don't get the foul AND the basket.

I've been tackled multiple times, and punched in the face (glasses broken) with no whistle from the ref, and that was only in a 7th & 8th grade Catholic school league lol. I know the thoughts going through my mind were "as much as you want to, you can't start a fight because you'll get kicked out." I didn't intentionally set out to get revenge against the other team for playing dirty, but I certainly didn't lose any sleep if they got in my way and ended up with a boo-boo after they pulled that crap :D

scott257
02-11-2014, 02:19 PM
Shem must have Cable TV. "Don't get body slammed by a Lowland Gorilla. Get rid of cable and get DirecTV."

This is really inappropriate.

former1dog
02-11-2014, 02:23 PM
This is really inappropriate.

Its a pop culture reference.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHBFpfNuTRI

There a plenty of legitimate things to get offended by. I try not to seek them out.

scott257
02-11-2014, 03:23 PM
Its a pop culture reference.
There a plenty of legitimate things to get offended by. I try not to seek them out.

I know it is a reference to a commercial, but it crosses the line to imply that the Memphis player is a "Lowland Gorilla." That is offensive.

Bkzag
02-11-2014, 03:27 PM
I am just surprised at how many responses in this thread indicate retaliation or getting up and getting in his face. We are talking about a basketball play which was just inappropriate. PK did the RIGHT THING by not getting up and getting in his face. What would that of proved? More than likely he would of been hit in the face and could of been hurt which would of caused him to miss games? Getting up and in the guy's face would not of proved he was tough but rather that he can be pushed into a reaction.

Anyone remember Washington sucker punching Rudy Tomjanovich. Tomjanovich was never the same player.

Again, PK was wronged BUT he didn't react and stayed within himself.

I saw a BYU game with I believe San Diego (it could of been SCU). Close to the end of the game, one of the opposition post players just threw an unprovoked elbow at Mika's jaw. Mika took it and just stared at the player and said, "What are you doing?" He didn't retaliate but rather went to the line and shot the two free throws. To me this says character just as PK displayed his character, after all he is European and they are not taught to play that way as it is just plain unacceptable.

former1dog
02-11-2014, 03:28 PM
I know it is a reference to a commercial, but it crosses the line to imply that the Memphis player is a "Lowland Gorilla." That is offensive.

I think the reference was to getting knocked over, not to the Memphis player. Bob has been posting on Gonzaga message boards for 15+ years. If he was prone to writing offensive things, I think we might know about it by now.

Blackbeard
02-11-2014, 03:30 PM
I know it is a reference to a commercial, but it crosses the line to imply that the Memphis player is a "Lowland Gorilla." That is offensive.

I find it offensive that you find that offensive. Back on topic, Shem and his teammates did everything they should of in that scenario.. except win the game as others have pointed out. Cheers.

scott257
02-11-2014, 04:14 PM
Considering that "gorilla" has been used as a racial slur for years (don't take my word for it, educate yourself and look it up), and then consider the race of the player that knocked (or slammed) Karnowski to the ground. Given that, it is entirely reasonable that it could be considered offensive. I can accept that it may have been inadvertent but it does not make it less offensive.

Zagceo
02-11-2014, 04:25 PM
Considering that "gorilla" has been used as a racial slur for years (don't take my word for it, educate yourself and look it up), and then consider the race of the player that knocked (or slammed) Karnowski to the ground. Given that, it is entirely reasonable that it could be considered offensive. I can accept that it may have been inadvertent but it does not make it less offensive.

Lets just say that I would not take to kindly if a Memphis fan had posted a similar joke about one of our players on their board.

IMO bad taste.

Reborn
02-11-2014, 06:29 PM
Lets just say that I would not take to kindly if a Memphis fan had posted a similar joke about one of our players on their board.

IMO bad taste.

What some see as funny, others may see as offensive. I've seen people lose their jobs for making those kinds of mistakes. Hopefully, it's the kind of "inadvertant" mistake that some claim the Memphis player made.

ZagaZags
02-11-2014, 09:29 PM
What some see as funny, others may see as offensive. I've seen people lose their jobs for making those kinds of mistakes. Hopefully, it's the kind of "inadvertant" mistake that some claim the Memphis player made.

Howard's huge mistake. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=howard+cosell+look+at+that+little+monkey+ go&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=823981EEE7628EA6DE72823981EEE7628EA6DE72
This cost him his career on MNF.

Zag4Hire
02-12-2014, 08:27 AM
This may be a good opportunity to insert a witty quote from a famous person in an attempt to defuse the thread but that seems so sophomoric. Instead perhaps suggest a lighter topic such as where does Stocks rank in your all time best Gonzaga guards list ;) ?

Zagceo
02-12-2014, 08:39 AM
IMO this thread has turned in a very disturbing way and I would encourage the moderators to eliminate it.

Reborn
02-12-2014, 08:46 AM
IMO this thread has turned in a very disturbing way and I would encourage the moderators to eliminate it.

I agree. Talk about hijacking a thread. The moderators must be asleep this morning.

gamagin
02-12-2014, 08:56 AM
I've learned there is a sale on if your willing to switch from cable to satellite, I think it was. And you might get tackled by a chordata mammalia hominidae if you aren't careful when picking up your newspaper the next morning. So heads up there.

BobZag
02-12-2014, 09:54 AM
Apologies for the blurb. I listened to the game on radio and had no idea what color the ejected player was. I was referring to a popular DirecTV ad that tied in with this thread's subject title. No racisism was intended. This thread will be closed now.