PDA

View Full Version : Again, re: Kyle Dranginis & Coach Few



raise the zag
02-09-2014, 07:50 AM
Needs more mins.

During our "run" in the 1st half to take the lead and extend the lead in the 2nd half, he was IN. Same exact occurrence vs Portland the other night...finding shooters, offensive flow, and was IN when we took a 20+ pt lead.

Our best defensive, damn near stifling unit is when he plays and played alongside Pangos and Coleman on the perimeter.

He puts pressure on the defense, makes the right pass, forces collapses, and plays vastly underrated perimeter defense.

Interesting factoid:

-- Only (4) games Dranginis has logged less than 20 mins of PT this season --

They are:

-- Oakland (struggled to close out)
-- Dayton (lost)
-- Portland (lost 22 pt lead & nearly lossed)
-- Memphis (starting guards choked & couldn't make shots)

Its no coincidence.

During Kyle's 15 mins last night, we nearly shut OUT Memphis scoring, no joke. We also came back to take the lead when down 7 pts to start the game.

During Kyle's 13 mins vs Portland in Spokane, is when we extended our lead from 4 to 22. Again, no coincidence.

He should have been in those final 5 mins of the game, even for defensive purposes alone.

We continue to see the 3-guard lineup of Pangos, Bell Jr, Stocks struggle out the gate and to close games. Why do we continue to accept this inexplicable crap of ineffective lineups. Yes, each one of GBJ, Pangos, & Stocks are invaluable to our team's success and they each bring something that we absolutely need, yet for one reason of another, they don't work well together -- offensively or defensively.

They pass well to the post and are our starters, yet show me one game or instance they've started like gangbusters or finished strong? Maybe BYU, yet even that would be stretch considering it was tied until TV timeout.

Our best lineups and where we win games is the meat of games, when our subs are paired with each one of GBJ, Stocks, or Pangos and Dranginis playing or not playing the last few games is a microcosm of this occurrence(and issue).

I thought Kyle played extremely well in limited mins the last few games...remember when he single-handedly won us games while GBJr was out or his 12 boards vs USF on the road?

He had 3 or 4 boards last night and the only guard who was really fronting Memphis players and rebounding, yet Few is like clockwork and so predictable down the stretch -- its not working, not in the least.

same $hit, different year.

IF we make the NCAA's this yr, this crap will continue and Few32 will get his wish: 1) Ride into the sunset in 2nd Round 2) Play his most ineffective, yet most trustworthy players that are great yet play sub-par together.

Point is, we have terrific lineups that can beat most anyone out there -- we've shown that time and time again, yet we continue to go against the grain or not play our best lineup(s) when it matters most, Dranginis is just one of many examples, folks.

Coach Few not allowing this team to reach its full potential or highest ceiling. We are losing these much-needed games or giving up leads we shouldn't b/c Coach, not players. Coach Few continues to tell the media and everyone, "we aren't as talented and have no margin of error with this group, or can't afford to be out-hustled..." Point taken, Coach, yet your surreal lineups in crunch time or Tourney time are ridiculous. The stats and #'s and defense and leads show otherwise.

Play to our strengths. Anyone else notice how much Memphis struggled with our defense when Pangos, Coleman, Dranginis, Sam, et al were playing together? Just one small example of blowing a double-digit lead b/c you can't handle adjusting within the game itself.

Any monkey could see what was working and clearly not working the last few games, yet Coach Few continues to pound away with what doesn't work -- almost as if he's trying to teach a lesson and prove his repeated point this yr...."we just aren't as talented as we used to be." Such crap.


Coach Few's motto this season:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ~Albert Einstein

Ezag
02-09-2014, 07:58 AM
Interesting and I agree. KD is one of our most athletic players. So is Coleman. They should both see more time right now especially against athletic teams.

jazzdelmar
02-09-2014, 08:18 AM
Interesting and I agree. KD is one of our most athletic players. So is Coleman. They should both see more time right now especially against athletic teams.

+1....caveat: coleman still scares me sometimes, but kd shld be the quintessential few player and for some reason is not....abandoning the dreadful 3 guard lineup should be mandatory but wont happen. i wd be a lot happier having stocks and kp play at the point 20 min each but rarely if never on the floor together.....stocks is actually a better player when kp is not on the floor. of course im talking about the hurt kp. bell is an enigma, i fear we will never see his full potential reached. but more mins for kd, gc and an a must; and i was immediately concerned when edwards was quickly pulled for the obviously hurt karno....subbing never few's strength.

jazzdelmar
02-09-2014, 08:38 AM
KD is not Athletic and he can't shoot but he's a very good WCC player


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


agree, now. but i think he has potential to be better, a lot better....

Oregonzagnut
02-09-2014, 09:51 AM
We should have abandoned (correction: Few should have abandoned) after the loss to K State and definitely after the loss to Portland.

Chicken Ball
02-09-2014, 10:20 AM
Not true. Check kenpom. He's the only player on the team who's both highly efficient on offense and defense. You don't have the second most blocks on the team as a guard without athleticism. And did you see him stick with LMU's Ireland? He's quick, too. Also, he's shooting 38% from 3. That's not bad. He's really good, and not just on the WCC level.

jazzdelmar
02-09-2014, 10:28 AM
Not true. Check kenpom. He's the only player on the team who's both highly efficient on offense and defense. You don't have the second most blocks on the team as a guard without athleticism. And did you see him stick with LMU's Ireland? He's quick, too. Also, he's shooting 38% from 3. That's not bad. He's really good, and not just on the WCC level.

tough to do from the bench....right now he's more valuable than bell....

gonwick
02-09-2014, 10:30 AM
Totally agree that Kyle needs more minutes. All 3 starting guards are not exactly killing it out there. The problem is that few rides them for the start of every game and to start the half. Kyle just won't get enough run unless few inserts him into the starting lineup.

Baseline
02-09-2014, 10:58 AM
In the present situation with hurt players I consider KD the best guard on the team. He is not overly athletic, but he is tall and plays with a high IQ. He rebounds well and plays good defense, real pluses to have in there. His one negative is his reluctance to shoot. His percentages are on a par with the others, but he seems scared to shoot, a real shame as he could light it up in high school. I don't understand how good shooters can change. It will be interesting to see if Melson has the same problem next year.
KD should be getting the most minutes right now based on everyone's play.

ZAGGED OUT
02-09-2014, 11:02 AM
Really Milano? I forgot that 38% from 3 qualifies you as "not a good shooter". Nobody said he is KP or DB from when shooting. Have some perspective to your posts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

northsidezagfan
02-09-2014, 11:09 AM
KD is not Athletic and he can't shoot but he's a very good WCC player


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He is shooting 50% from the floor and 38% from 3. Was over 40% from 3 until pretty recently. He's pretty athletic too, gets to the rack better than anyone besides GC and AN.

ZAGLAWQB
02-09-2014, 11:14 AM
One fantastic Coaching job if this team wins WCC tournament and possibly one game.
Fabulous fanatical fans hoping for anything more.

DixieZag
02-09-2014, 11:23 AM
I thought the 3 guard line up made 0 sense at the beginning of the year

And I am more convinced than ever.

cjm720
02-09-2014, 11:32 AM
KD is valuable. The OP is a bit drastic as our record indicates. I'd say a few less minutes for pangos and bell so he can see the floor more.

john montana
02-09-2014, 12:04 PM
I think the OP is going a little far here, but it agree in principle. KD needs more minutes. He should have the second most minutes of our guards (to pangos). Our best guard lineup has been KD, KP, and gbj...mix in some stocks and Coleman and we are pretty solid.

Hoopaholic
02-09-2014, 12:04 PM
He is shooting 50% from the floor and 38% from 3. Was over 40% from 3 until pretty recently. He's pretty athletic too, gets to the rack better than anyone besides GC and AN.

not too mention his rebounding rate and athelltic ability to keep balls alive even if he can get to them...and his athletic ability to be second or third leading shot blocker on the team with his limited minutes....I think he is fairly athletic and like his progression

ZagHouse
02-09-2014, 12:06 PM
Milano, How is he not athletic? What's your evidence to support that Kyle only has adequate gifts as an athlete?

Hoopaholic
02-09-2014, 12:10 PM
Because he's not very quick, and can't jump? Listen, he's smart and he's pretty tall for his position which makes up for it. Pargo was athletic. Nunez is athletic. Coleman is pretty athletic. Dranginis isn't but he doesn't really have to be so don't take it as an insult


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

so if he isnt quick how did he stick like glue on Ireland who is bloody quick? Or was that just luck

ZagnetitForce
02-09-2014, 12:26 PM
I almost wonder if starting Kyle and sitting Bell would help. Let Bell be one of those starters who watches the first few minutes of a game, get a feel for what is going on, an then come in for Kyle or Stockton depending on what is needed.

This team is a still good one folks and I think some are being a bit hard on them and the Coach. We all want them to win and feel the losses but not nearly as much as those guys and coaches do. Support them don't cast them aside.

Hoopaholic
02-09-2014, 12:26 PM
Quickness doesn't = good defense. You're getting mad for no reason. Was Mike Hart gifted athletically? No. Was he a great defender and rebounder? Yes. Amazing , I know


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

your dancing around the question...he guarded what one could argueably say is the qickest player in WCC and never once had the corner turned on him.....if you are saying he did that all with smarts and absolutely no lateral quickness....well we can agree to disagree.......

not sure why you think I am mad......I just simply disagree with your assessment

yes the free throw issue is a true weakness and is a mental issue that he needs to work on

tinfoilzag
02-09-2014, 12:32 PM
This is how Few has always been. He coaches to have a chance to win the game at the end. Reckless play has a big upside and downside so Few avoids it. That's why at tournament time we get knocked out by "high ceiling" teams that are cutting loose in a tourney that is almost always won by the "hot" team (every so often a team or player is so good their worst day is still good enough).

This philosophy dictates playing time. The criteria hierarchy for playing time goes something like this:
- In position on defense
- Running the offense correctly
- Taking care of the ball
- Taking good shots
- No stupid fouls

Things like steals, block shots, making high difficulty shots, dunks, are secondary because they are higher risk events. If you can do those things while meeting the first criteria, great, but they don't get you more playing time. This is why Few favors 3 guard lineups. This is why he loves David Stockton (a good player) even when tall guards are shooting essentially uncontested jump shots over him because of his size. Few figures he was in position, if they beat us with those shots, so be it. This is why a lot of players get frustrated in our system. They may be superior athletes or amazing playmakers but if they make mistakes, it's straight to the bench. Some guys play basketball largely on instinct and athletic ability; they won't see much time on Few's teams.

Few gets us to the dance every year with this formula. Be grateful for that as so many other programs would love to have our ESPN and tourney money. Yes it means that S16 is the ceiling but that is the price you pay for Few's style.

Oregonzagnut
02-09-2014, 12:40 PM
Dranginis is a sophomore and is still very athletic compared to 99% of the rest of the world. That quick first step or lock down defense may not be there yet, but he has plenty other things that make him one of our top 5 all around players.

Hoopaholic
02-09-2014, 12:41 PM
If Kyle is as quick as I'm being told, then he needs to be playing 35+ minutes a night and the #1 option on offense because with that size and quickness there aren't many people in the country who could stop him from scoring at the rim. I can't figure out why he doesn't attack more w his elite athleticism


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

nice attempt to switch terminology in the middle of a discussion....dont think anyone said he had ELITE athleticism but was being discussed was your view he was NON ATHLETIC.......there is alot of room between those two extremes ......

bballbeachbum
02-09-2014, 12:45 PM
If Kyle is as quick as I'm being told, then he needs to be playing 35+ minutes a night and the #1 option on offense because with that size and quickness there aren't many people in the country who could stop him from scoring at the rim. I can't figure out why he doesn't attack more w his elite athleticism


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

enjoying your little tete a tete here fellas

elite athleticism doesn't make one an amazing attacking player necessarily though it might be a weapon but is McDermott amazingly athletic for example? It is pretty essential to being an amazing perimeter defender though and innumerable teams have those amazing athleticism guys playing just like that defensively who cannot attack offensively very well

carry on :)

CDC84
02-09-2014, 01:16 PM
I have to say that I 100% agree with raise the zag. The proof is there.

Kyle right now is the best perimeter on this team when you consider that Pangos is playing at 60% and Bell can only manage to score 3 points against Memphis. Stockton has permanent defensive and offensive shortcomings, and Coleman still turns the ball over too much and can't shoot a lick from the outside (although I think he has been much improved).

If I were coach (and I'm not paid the big bucks to make these decisions), I would start Dranginis ahead of Bell on Thursday night to send a message to Gary that with Pangos hurt, he MUST step up his offensive game and become more of a threat on that end of the floor. Kevin needs his help. Few needs to do something to ignite Gary beyond just whining on radio talk shows. Many great coaches throughout the land use such tactics to ignite players into action. I'd like to see what would happen if Few did this. My best guess is that we would see a different Gary.

I still feel that the best lineup that Few can put on the floor is the Pangos/Bell/Dranginis/Dower/Karnowski lineup. Use Stockton to give Pangos extended breathers and use the small 3 guard lineup when appropriate.

With Pangos' injury issues, this team must defend at the highest level. Than means Bell/K-Drang playing together. Especially if Few can do something to ignite GBJ's offense.

john montana
02-09-2014, 01:36 PM
I still feel that the best lineup that Few can put on the floor is the Pangos/Bell/Dranginis/Dower/Karnowski lineup. Use Stockton to give Pangos extended breathers and use the small 3 guard lineup when appropriate. .

This is the lineup that I want to see play extended minutes.

bballbeachbum
02-09-2014, 01:59 PM
I have to say that I 100% agree with raise the zag. The proof is there.

Kyle right now is the best perimeter on this team when you consider that Pangos is playing at 60% and Bell can only manage to score 3 points against Memphis. Stockton has permanent defensive and offensive shortcomings, and Coleman still turns the ball over too much and can't shoot a lick from the outside (although I think he has been much improved).

If I were coach (and I'm not paid the big bucks to make these decisions), I would start Dranginis ahead of Bell on Thursday night to send a message to Gary that with Pangos hurt, he MUST step up his offensive game and become more of a threat on that end of the floor. Kevin needs his help. Few needs to do something to ignite Gary beyond just whining on radio talk shows. Many great coaches throughout the land use such tactics to ignite players into action. I'd like to see what would happen if Few did this. My best guess is that we would see a different Gary.

I still feel that the best lineup that Few can put on the floor is the Pangos/Bell/Dranginis/Dower/Karnowski lineup. Use Stockton to give Pangos extended breathers and use the small 3 guard lineup when appropriate.

With Pangos' injury issues, this team must defend at the highest level. Than means Bell/K-Drang playing together. Especially if Few can do something to ignite GBJ's offense.

agree with much of your post CDC, maybe not for all the same reasons you said, but almost posted the start Kyle idea earlier too, as a hypothetical

Whoever I think it should be if I were coach (and I'm not paid either obviously ;)) the guy to the bench would be Gary IF it happens. In a nutshell, again IF it happened, the good for Gary would be to come into lineups/matchups and effective roles that suit him and the team, like you referred to, and get 25+minutes depending on things, instead of starting at the 3 guard 'be assertive' role which has not worked; the team gets Kyle and his game on the floor from the start and balances the starting lineup and rotations. The toe dictates tactics and strategy again in this one, the trickle down of the toe, and since Gary's role has already been tweaked recently and KD's was earlier, why wouldn't they possibly get tweaked again? whatever happens, agree with all about Kyle, playing some ball and fun to watch his game. we'll see what Few does

Interesting to note last night's starting 5 opened the 2nd half very well together, as well as they have played for some time too imo.

Larryzag
02-09-2014, 02:13 PM
I have to say that I 100% agree with raise the zag. The proof is there.

Kyle right now is the best perimeter on this team when you consider that Pangos is playing at 60% and Bell can only manage to score 3 points against Memphis. Stockton has permanent defensive and offensive shortcomings, and Coleman still turns the ball over too much and can't shoot a lick from the outside (although I think he has been much improved).

If I were coach (and I'm not paid the big bucks to make these decisions), I would start Dranginis ahead of Bell on Thursday night to send a message to Gary that with Pangos hurt, he MUST step up his offensive game and become more of a threat on that end of the floor. Kevin needs his help. Few needs to do something to ignite Gary beyond just whining on radio talk shows. Many great coaches throughout the land use such tactics to ignite players into action. I'd like to see what would happen if Few did this. My best guess is that we would see a different Gary.

I still feel that the best lineup that Few can put on the floor is the Pangos/Bell/Dranginis/Dower/Karnowski lineup. Use Stockton to give Pangos extended breathers and use the small 3 guard lineup when appropriate.

With Pangos' injury issues, this team must defend at the highest level. Than means Bell/K-Drang playing together. Especially if Few can do something to ignite GBJ's offense.

I agree except I would try Coleman starting for Bell at least for a few games. I would want to see at least one player out there that attacks the basket. Then bring in Stockton for Pangos and at the same time Bell for Coleman. Or reverse it and start Stockton and Bell together. Start KD and play him for 30 minutes a game at the 3 with Nunez coming in for 10. With Pangos banged up Few needs to change things up and play him less minutes. He can't drive to the basket like he did earlier this season so having Coleman play with him keeps defenses honest and less able to defend the perimeter. So it would look like this:

Pangos, Stockton
Coleman, Bell
Drainginis, Nunez, Barham
Dower, Barham, Nunez
Karnowski, Dower

or

Stockton, Pangos
Bell, Coleman
Drainginis, Nunez, Barham
Dower, Barham, Nunez
Karnowski, Dower

CDC84
02-09-2014, 02:59 PM
The problem with having Coleman out there starting, again, is that he turns the ball over too much, and he can't shoot a lick from the outside. He's too one dimensional on offense - even on his drives. Teams have him scouted to take away his left hand, which is something he needs to work on in the offseason even more than his long range shooting. Also, I don't agree with some posters on this board that GC is a really good defender. Like Stockton, he tends to be a riverboat gambler too much. He thinks his long arms will bail him out too much. He needs to stay in front of people better and do better on his close outs.

I like Gary (when assertive) and Dranginis as a tandem more because both guys are simply more complete than Gerard is. They can do more things. They can both drive it (maybe not quite as good as Gerard), they can shoot it (much better than Gerard), and they can defend (better than Gerard). Both of them are also better at playmaking for others.

That being said, I just cannot say enough good things about Gerard and his play of late. He's making better decisions out there, and I love the hustle he brings to the team coming off the pine. And there are times when I wish Few would let him play through his mistakes more. Maybe take him out for a possession, remind him of what he needs to do, and put him back out there right away.

I think the deal with Gary is that he needs a kick in the butt from his coach. Words are not enough. Action needs to be taken. And that action is to keep him out of the starting lineup against Pepperdine with a CLEAR message that he will be reinserted as soon as he becomes more assertive on offense.

northsidezagfan
02-09-2014, 03:13 PM
Dranginis needs to start, whether it means Bell or Stockton sits. Played a solid first half and then barely saw the floor until DS fouled out. Had to take that late 3 dang near fresh off the bench. That's a tough shot in any situation, let alone in front of 18000 people without having taken another shot the entire game. Some guys like GC are "spark plug" types that play aggressively right off the bench. KD isn't one of these guys; he seems to thrive in extended minutes rather than shorter spurts. He was one of our best and most consistent players while GB was hurt. Might have even been our best player. It's no coincidence this correlated with his high minutes played. People are talking about how he has regressed since Bell got back, IMO he is just not getting enough minutes to get in the flow of each game. Start Draino, bring GC off the bench. Both of these guys need minutes.

GPGUgrad
02-09-2014, 03:33 PM
Dranginis needs to start, whether it means Bell or Stockton sits. Played a solid first half and then barely saw the floor until DS fouled out. Had to take that late 3 dang near fresh off the bench. That's a tough shot in any situation, let alone in front of 18000 people without having taken another shot the entire game. Some guys like GC are "spark plug" types that play aggressively right off the bench. KD isn't one of these guys; he seems to thrive in extended minutes rather than shorter spurts. He was one of our best and most consistent players while GB was hurt. Might have even been our best player. It's no coincidence this correlated with his high minutes played. People are talking about how he has regressed since Bell got back, IMO he is just not getting enough minutes to get in the flow of each game. Start Draino, bring GC off the bench. Both of these guys need minutes.

+1

wnczagfan
02-09-2014, 03:48 PM
This is how Few has always been. He coaches to have a chance to win the game at the end. Reckless play has a big upside and downside so Few avoids it. That's why at tournament time we get knocked out by "high ceiling" teams that are cutting loose in a tourney that is almost always won by the "hot" team (every so often a team or player is so good their worst day is still good enough).

This philosophy dictates playing time. The criteria hierarchy for playing time goes something like this:
- In position on defense
- Running the offense correctly
- Taking care of the ball
- Taking good shots
- No stupid fouls

Things like steals, block shots, making high difficulty shots, dunks, are secondary because they are higher risk events. If you can do those things while meeting the first criteria, great, but they don't get you more playing time. This is why Few favors 3 guard lineups. This is why he loves David Stockton (a good player) even when tall guards are shooting essentially uncontested jump shots over him because of his size. Few figures he was in position, if they beat us with those shots, so be it. This is why a lot of players get frustrated in our system. They may be superior athletes or amazing playmakers but if they make mistakes, it's straight to the bench. Some guys play basketball largely on instinct and athletic ability; they won't see much time on Few's teams.

Few gets us to the dance every year with this formula. Be grateful for that as so many other programs would love to have our ESPN and tourney money. Yes it means that S16 is the ceiling but that is the price you pay for Few's style.

Nice assessment! Well thought out. A lot of this rings very true to me. Also, getting to the NCAA tournament every year at least puts us in a position to get to the FF. If you are not there, you definitely can't do it. If I remember correctly, Kentucky wasn't even in the tourney last year, despite their athleticism. At least we were there, and lost to a program that is showing itself to be successful and pretty well coached. I hate our luck that we ran into Wichita State, but at least we were there to run into them.

Oregonzagnut
02-09-2014, 04:06 PM
Few has done things the right way. A unique way in the history of basketball. One thing you can't really teach is athleticism. You can built it up or is naturally genetic. Few compensates for not getting the elite athletes by running a tight on court show and a reliance on work ethic and fundamentals in his recruits.

I have trouble believeing that building a team that can go deep in the tournament won't also win 30 regular season games as well. I'd think if we can build a team that can beat the power schools in the Dance, we should also dominate the regular season.

Few has made history with what he inherited from Fitz and Monson. But he is also positioned to start to get those elite athletes who might complement his system and get us our final four. The future is bright in that area.

If Brad Stevens can get similar type athletes to 2 championship games, Few can get our guys to do the same if he wants to get out of his comfort zone.